A more efficient .38! Step inside for some edjumacation!

[Lost River]

So obviously we have had a bit of an ammo crunch and components have been hard to come by. The short version is that finding new brass has been a bear. I have been loading .44 Russians for guys who want to shoot target loads in their .44 Mags and Specials and have had no shortage of requests for .38 Special ammo. However new .38 Special brass has been pretty much unobtanium in the last few months.

However... I did grab some ... 38 Short Colt Brass!

Now most shooters have absolutely ZERO clue what .38 SC is, or they confuse is with .38 S&W. (different caliber completely, the .38 Short Colt and Special family is .357, and the .38 S&W is .361)

I will just skip to the punchline. .38 Short Colt is the grandfather of .38 Special and it is essentially .38 Special brass cut to 9mm length. In fact the 3K cases I picked up from Starline are simply .38 Special cases cut down and stamped short Colt.

Here is a pic of .38 Short Colts next to 9mms.

https://i.imgur.com/GTutu6H.jpg?1

I can tell you that they are extremely slick little things in terms of loading and unloading due to their short length. I loaded up some poly coated 125 grain truncated cone flat points and they are some accurate and slick loading little suckers!

https://i.imgur.com/N8mmuBe.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jiNdsOw.jpg?1

[entropy]

Damn. Learn something every day. Now I’m off to the basement to look it up in my Lee Manual.

[fatdog]

for cas side matches I load 38sc with black powder for my .38 special FIE derringer, it VERY closely replicates the original .41 rimfire load for the old remington derringers and is quite manageable

another benefit of the 38sc case for .38 specials is the short ejector rods have enough stroke to completely clear the cases, even in a 2" j frame...

I always have thought of .38sc to .38 special as having the same relationship that .38 special has to .357 magnum or .45 schoefield to .45 colt pr .44 russian to .44 special...etc.

good tip LR!

[Lost River]

Check this out!

https://i.imgur.com/qgqetGE.jpg?1

The Short Colt next to the Special.

:cool:

[Lost River]

BTW,

These little 125 grain poly coated truncated cone flat points are doing 850 FPS out of a 4" K frame and are just plain fun to shoot in both Js and Ks. :cool:

https://i.imgur.com/WwNcP6j.jpg

I have to get some more dang boxes for them LOL. Guys keep wiping me out!

[willie]

Did you buy this brass because you can't find .38 Spl brass?

[WDR]

Are you using (light) 9mm data? Or .38 Short data? I've been curious about trying this for lighter loads either with short Colt or long Colt brass... I do wonder how heavy of a bullet you can push at a reasonable velocity without making them uncomfortable to shoot in the light 2" J-frames.

[pettypace]

Are you using (light) 9mm data? Or .38 Short data? I've been curious about trying this for lighter loads either with short Colt or long Colt brass... I do wonder how heavy of a bullet you can push at a reasonable velocity without making them uncomfortable to shoot in the light 2" J-frames.

Assuming the intended purpose is self defense against deer-sized critters, I'd want the cylinder full of wadcutters at 650 ft/s:

72872

And the speed loaders full of 200 grainers at 625 ft/s. If the 200 grainers went straight, they'd over-penetrate with minimal wound mass:

72873

But with the "right" bullet, something like the Lee C358-200RF, they might yaw, flip 180 degrees, and stop in (maybe) 15". Then it might look more like this:

72874

Note that the MacPherson penetration model does not apply to "tumbling" bullets. So, the wound mass in this last graph is my own speculation based on some admittedly simplistic physical "analysis."

[OlongJohnson]

Are you using (light) 9mm data? Or .38 Short data?

I'm not shy. What's your recipe?

[Oldherkpilot]

Hang on! Shouldn't the title of this thread be: How to turn your .38 Special into a .32 ACP?

[TiroFijo]

Check this out!

https://i.imgur.com/qgqetGE.jpg?1

The Short Colt next to the Special.

:cool:

If you are using a 38 short colt on a 357 mag chamber, then your .358" bullet is running for almost .54" on a .381" bore inside the cylinder...

Take care with leading

[Spartan1980]

The 160 grain coated round nose are pretty snappy in an Airweight J. Even when loaded to USPSA minor PF. Yea I have a couple thousand SC cases myself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lon]

My buddies who shoot revolver in USPSA like to use the SC brass in their 627’s. Much easier to eject with the moonclips.

[jh9]

If you are using a 38 short colt on a 357 mag chamber, then your .358" bullet is running for almost .54" on a .381" bore inside the cylinder...

Take care with leading

As Lon mentioned, this exact combo pretty much owns 8-minor in USPSA revolver division. It's either 9mm in a 929 or .38sc (a rimmed 9mm) in a 627 of some form or another. The .357 chamber doesn't pose any real problem.

[Lost River]

If you are using a 38 short colt on a 357 mag chamber, then your .358" bullet is running for almost .54" on a .381" bore inside the cylinder...

Take care with leading

Yep,

I have heard this repeated by people. Of course when I ask if they have any actual real life subject matter experience, the answer is always the same... "No but I read" . They repeat the same bad information over and over.

Yet

Here is a .44 Russian fired in a .44 Magnum. Absolutely stacks them into tiny, tiny groups.

These were shot at 20 yards.


https://i.imgur.com/QpiHhEv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/n9Hzk7c.jpg?1

Hundreds of rounds through that .44 magnum chambered gun at the time I shot those groups, yet absolutely no issue whatsoever. Cleaned up just like it does when I shoot specials or mags in it.



Earlier this month I visited with author John Taffin (and one of the last few living guys who is still writing that is truly a subject matter expert in his field) at his home in Boise, who was quite excited when I told him that I was loading .38 long Colts and shooting them in .38 Special guns. He chuckled when I told him that I had had a few people tell me " you can't do that" and "take care with leading" type comments.





Moving on,

Mr Taffin loves historic cartridges like the Short Colt and when I told them that I was loading them and supplying them for folks to use in the .38 Specials he was quite pleased.

In tough times, sometimes it pays to know a little about history and go "Old School Cool" :cool:

The cool thing is that since you are using a 9mm length case, when used in a modern gun such as a J frame or K frame, you can use a lot of the 9mm load data (to a degree). I keep the loads sedate, so as to keep them very pleasant to shoot in the Js, but if one wanted to bump a 125 up to 1K it would be very very easy.


https://i.imgur.com/JNfok9Z.jpg

[TiroFijo]

38 spl shoots great out of a 357 revolver, accuracy wise.

But when I shoot 38 spl in my 357 mag guns I do take care to clean the crud/lead deposits in the throat leades to seat the 357 shells without problems. I've had problems before with this issue (as do all my friends that shoot 38 spl in 357 chambers), that's why I do it.

I have no experience with 38 short colt on 38/357 chambers, but it seems the problem would be at least the same.

I've never used 44 spl or russian cases in my 44 mags, simply because around here they are obscure obsolete rounds and the 44 mag is very amenable to mild charges anyway.

What is needed for snubby aficionados in search of a modern, powerful and efficient round, is revolvers chambered in 9 mm luger BUT with a short cylinder to take advante for the round's short OAL and be more size efficient.

[okie john]

Interesting thread.

Speaking of going old-school due to hard times, shotgun powders are a bit more available than most other powders. I’m kind of surprised not to see more threads about using them in rifles and handguns with cast bullets as was common in the Depression. I'm pretty sure that I could put meat on the table with some flavor of 38 and Blue Dot or with a 308 and a cast 160-grain bullet over Unique or something similar. All in the fullness of time, I suppose, but I would not be surprised to see a renaissance in that knowledge.

On a slightly different note, what kind of velocity could you get from the 38 Short Colt in a 20" lever gun, and how many 38 Short Colt cartridges would fit into the magazine?


Okie John

[03RN]

Neat.

My problem is that I have 3 gallons of .38 brass but no spp

[03RN]

Yep,

I have heard this repeated by people. Of course when I ask if they have any actual real life subject matter experience, the answer is always the same... "No but I read" . They repeat the same bad information over and over.

Yet

Here is a .44 Russian fired in a .44 Magnum. Absolutely stacks them into tiny, tiny groups.

These were shot at 20 yards.


https://i.imgur.com/QpiHhEv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/n9Hzk7c.jpg?1

Hundreds of rounds through that .44 magnum chambered gun at the time I shot those groups, yet absolutely no issue whatsoever. Cleaned up just like it does when I shoot specials or mags in it.



Earlier this month I visited with author John Taffin (and one of the last few living guys who is still writing that is truly a subject matter expert in his field) at his home in Boise, who was quite excited when I told him that I was loading .38 long Colts and shooting them in .38 Special guns. He chuckled when I told him that I had had a few people tell me " you can't do that" and "take care with leading" type comments.





Moving on,

Mr Taffin loves historic cartridges like the Short Colt and when I told them that I was loading them and supplying them for folks to use in the .38 Specials he was quite pleased.

In tough times, sometimes it pays to know a little about history and go "Old School Cool" :cool:

The cool thing is that since you are using a 9mm length case, when used in a modern gun such as a J frame or K frame, you can use a lot of the 9mm load data (to a degree). I keep the loads sedate, so as to keep them very pleasant to shoot in the Js, but if one wanted to bump a 125 up to 1K it would be very very easy.


https://i.imgur.com/JNfok9Z.jpg

I'd love to meet Mr Taffin. He's definitely my favorite gun author.

[Whirlwind06]

I have thought of trying out USPSA revolver Major with my GP100.
Using 38SC brass on a moon-clipped gun seemed to be the way to go.

Not sure about getting major PF out of it though.

[Stephanie B]

There's a guy in these parts who cut down a 686 cylinder to take .38 Short Colts and machined a barrel with an extension to the now-shortened cylinder. The picture I saw of the gun looked nice and I only met the guy one time over two years ago.

(We chatted because I was the only one shooting a revolver at an outlaw IDPA match.)

[Lost River]

Did you buy this brass because you can't find .38 Spl brass?


Yes,

I load and sell ammo to some folks and don't like to use used brass for liability reasons. Trying to find new .38 brass has been extremely difficult, as well as most other types of new brass. So when I saw that Starline had a good quantity of .38 Short Colt brass I jumped on it. Same story with the Russians.

The majority of the people I load for are all repeat customers and just ask what I have. I inform them of the difference, tell them to clean their guns after use and come see me when they run low. :)

Most the time I am doing specialty stuff anyways.

I actually just finally got in a back order of .38 Special brass, and am about to do a run of 148 wadcutters. Probably starting tomorrow.

[03RN]

I have thought of trying out USPSA revolver Major with my GP100.
Using 38SC brass on a moon-clipped gun seemed to be the way to go.

Not sure about getting major PF out of it though.

That's a 158gr @ 1050fps

[Lost River]

Are you using (light) 9mm data? Or .38 Short data? I've been curious about trying this for lighter loads either with short Colt or long Colt brass... I do wonder how heavy of a bullet you can push at a reasonable velocity without making them uncomfortable to shoot in the light 2" J-frames.

I have not pushed any heavy bullets but I believe it would be very easy to push a heavy bullet at a decent speed. Use powders that are optimized for 9mm, and seat the bullets further out. Obviously .38 SC data was developed in a completely different era and the powders we have today are not really applicable, so you have to put on your thinking cap. Plenty of people will be quick to tell you all the things you cannot do, but you will be quite surprised just what you can.

Here is a pic of a 170 grain powder coated hollow point cast bullet seated long. Out of curiousity I tried and (just eyeballing by loading an empty case next to the cases I slid the cast bullets into) I got 4.5 grains of Titewad (not Titegroup) in there, which is 1.5 grains more than I use in the load I have posted. The punchline is that it looks like you could get a heavy bullet moving pretty good with some reasonable experimentation.



https://i.imgur.com/si7AiNv.jpg?2


I'm not shy. What's your recipe?

I am using a 125 grain Missouri Bullet Company Cowboy #2 Truncated Cone Flat Point.
3 grains of TiteWad (Not Tite Group)


Now for Dillon guys, this is a good little tidbit here. It seems obvious when you think about it after the fact, but not knowing has caused a few guys some headaches in experimentation. Use a 9mm powder funnel in the powder station rather than a .38 special or anything else. I use a 9mm Lee crimp die on the 4th station to give the ammo a slight roll crimp.


CHEERS!

[Borderland]

38 spl shoots great out of a 357 revolver, accuracy wise.

But when I shoot 38 spl in my 357 mag guns I do take care to clean the crud/lead deposits in the throat leades to seat the 357 shells without problems. I've had problems before with this issue (as do all my friends that shoot 38 spl in 357 chambers), that's why I do it.

I have no experience with 38 short colt on 38/357 chambers, but it seems the problem would be at least the same.

I've never used 44 spl or russian cases in my 44 mags, simply because around here they are obscure obsolete rounds and the 44 mag is very amenable to mild charges anyway.

What is needed for snubby aficionados in search of a modern, powerful and efficient round, is revolvers chambered in 9 mm luger BUT with a short cylinder to take advante for the round's short OAL and be more size efficient.

I don't have any problems loading my .357 cases with a fast powder like American Select for 38 spl. velocity. I would have to look at my notes for the load but I'm pretty sure I got it from the Alliant website. I understand you can do the same thing with 44 Mag cases and Unique but I've never tried it.

[Jared]

Lost River

This is a stupid question:

Does the 38 SC use the same shell plate on a Dillon as the 38SPL/357Mag?

I may seriously give this a try in spite of the fact I have a good quantity of 38 SPL brass.

[Spartan1980]

On a slightly different note, what kind of velocity could you get from the 38 Short Colt in a 20" lever gun, and how many 38 Short Colt cartridges would fit into the magazine?


Okie John
Can't directly answer but I built a 9mm PCC carbine for USPSA because I thought it would be fun. When trying my pistol loads running about 132 PF they were consistently well into the 140's range at about 147 PF out of a 16" JP barrel. I eventually gave up trying to get them down to 130'ish PF. I use very fast shotgun powder (Alliant e3) and the charge would be so light the line to hit a stuck bullet just seemed way to narrow to worry about it. So my PCC loads run 147'ish PF in the gun I never really shoot. Remember this is a simple blowback action too. If you run a powder with a suitable 9mm burn rate like around AA#7, Unique, BE86, etc. I would think a 20" barrel would clock some nice velocities to the point that bullet selection would be pretty critical due to very impressive expansion. I'd definitely run a bonded bullet or one for .357 mag.

Would a round that short even feed though?

[Lost River]

Lost River

This is a stupid question:

Does the 38 SC use the same shell plate on a Dillon as the 38SPL/357Mag?

I may seriously give this a try in spite of the fact I have a good quantity of 38 SPL brass.

It is the same shell plate.

They are fun little things.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Lost River:

"Earlier this month I visited with author John Taffin (and one of the last few living guys who is still writing that is truly a subject matter expert in his field) at his home in Boise, who was quite excited when I told him that I was loading .38 long Colts and shooting them in .38 Special guns. He chuckled when I told him that I had had a few people tell me " you can't do that" and "take care with leading" type comments."

Several years before I retired, I was assigned a temporary duty mission in Boise. During my time there, I was able to break free from some of my LE chores and arrange a visit with Mr. Taffin. I echo your sentiments. Mr. Taffin is a true gentleman, was very humble and incredibly knowledgeable. It was a real treat to meet one of the folks whose byline I read in the American Handgunner. I will always have fond memories of that visit. His description of Colt's Single Action Army led me on a quest to shoot a real one, which I was finally able to do with the help of one of our mutual friends.

Back to the 38 Short Colt, if I recall correctly, a gentleman named Dan Cotterman, who at one time wrote handloading columns/articles for the American Handgunner, experimented with a shortened version of the 38 Special. I don't recall all of the details, but his theory was a shortened 38 Special case was significantly more efficient with modern powders and he achieved some pretty impressive velocities. Mr. Cotterman was looking for better performance for defensive/hunting loads as I recall. You may be onto something with the 38 SC. It might be worth a look through the old Handgunner issues to see if you can find the article. Food for thought.

Bruce

[okie john]

Would a round that short even feed though?

Yep, feeding would be critical. If you could sort that out, then you could turn it into a damned Yankee rifle that could be loaded on Sunday and fired all week. It wouldn't be as versatile as a Colt 6920 but you could make a nuisance out of yourself for quite some time--and probably acquire a 6920 or two along the way.


Okie John

[jandbj]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/7729

Dies in stock at grafs.

[WDR]

I actually just finally got in a back order of .38 Special brass, and am about to do a run of 148 wadcutters. Probably starting tomorrow.


FWIW, if you strike fast, Starline has .38 Special in stock right NOW: https://www.starlinebrass.com/38-special-brass

[Lost River]

Yep, feeding would be critical. If you could sort that out, then you could turn it into a damned Yankee rifle that could be loaded on Sunday and fired all week. It wouldn't be as versatile as a Colt 6920 but you could make a nuisance out of yourself for quite some time--and probably acquire a 6920 or two along the way.


Okie John

I think it would require some modification but it would certainly be possible. Can you imagine the capacity of a 20" lever gun with all those little 9mm length cartridges! :) , Shooting hot 125s you could have yourself one serious piece of hardware! I think hunting huge desert jacks in the deep snow with one of those would be a freaking blast too!

Another project for the back of my mind :cool:

[Wayne Dobbs]

Back to the 38 Short Colt, if I recall correctly, a gentleman named Dan Cotterman, who at one time wrote handloading columns/articles for the American Handgunner, experimented with a shortened version of the 38 Special. I don't recall all of the details, but his theory was a shortened 38 Special case was significantly more efficient with modern powders and he achieved some pretty impressive velocities. Mr. Cotterman was looking for better performance for defensive/hunting loads as I recall. You may be onto something with the 38 SC. It might be worth a look through the old Handgunner issues to see if you can find the article. Food for thought.

I recall that concept cartridge from Cotterman also! (We are old, Bruce!) Didn't he call it the .357 Special?

[Lost River]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/7729

Dies in stock at grafs.

That makes life easier!


I am using a mix of 9mm and 38 special dies.


BTW, when it comes to long range (as in hundreds of yards) handgunning the LEE roll crimp die is absolutely critical. I learned that lesson shooting past 5-600 yards. I had huge fliers, rounds that would go yards off away from where the others were going. Then when the guy I was shooting with diagnosed my stuff looking for the reason why, he looked at my ammo and immediately recognized the issue.

Short version is that with the roll crimp, and a good heavy crimp, the round has time to build up pressure and gets a more consistent even release. The results down range were dramatic as soon as I switched. I even switched on .45 ACP and groups at 100 yards were better. Inside 75 yards you won't see a difference, but at extended ranges such as 150-200 yards and beyond, it really becomes very obvious. 500 yards is night and day.

[deputyG23]

Yep, feeding would be critical. If you could sort that out, then you could turn it into a damned Yankee rifle that could be loaded on Sunday and fired all week. It wouldn't be as versatile as a Colt 6920 but you could make a nuisance out of yourself for quite some time--and probably acquire a 6920 or two along the way.


Okie John

I wonder if an 1873 Winchester replica would feed the shorter rounds?

[entropy]

Short version is that with the roll crimp, and a good heavy crimp, the round has time to build up pressure and gets a more consistent even release. The results down range were dramatic as soon as I switched. I even switched on .45 ACP and groups at 100 yards were better. Inside 75 yards you won't see a difference, but at extended ranges such as 150-200 yards and beyond, it really becomes very obvious. 500 yards is night and day.

**Dumb Question Alert**

All my cast lead reloading has basically been for plinking, nothing too serious.

Wouldn’t a heavy crimp like you describe have the potential to deform/shave the bullet more on firing perhaps allowing more chance of leading? I recall somewhere reading about crimping and shaving, maybe it was with coated bullets (???). Thinking at it further, it would also seem that if there WAS shaving from the crimp, that the pressure and obturation would turn around and negate that...

Something that has been clanging around in my brain for a long time now... insights?

[Borderland]

FWIW, if you strike fast, Starline has .38 Special in stock right NOW: https://www.starlinebrass.com/38-special-brass

Still there as I write this. They must have a mountain of it.

[Borderland]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/7729

Dies in stock at grafs.

I just got an email from RCBS that they have popular Group B 3 die sets available now. I was looking for some 44 mag dies about 3 weeks ago and I couldn't find any from any reloading retailers. I found a used set on ebay for a not so-great-price. Should have waited.

[Borderland]

That makes life easier!


I am using a mix of 9mm and 38 special dies.


BTW, when it comes to long range (as in hundreds of yards) handgunning the LEE roll crimp die is absolutely critical. I learned that lesson shooting past 5-600 yards. I had huge fliers, rounds that would go yards off away from where the others were going. Then when the guy I was shooting with diagnosed my stuff looking for the reason why, he looked at my ammo and immediately recognized the issue.

Short version is that with the roll crimp, and a good heavy crimp, the round has time to build up pressure and gets a more consistent even release. The results down range were dramatic as soon as I switched. I even switched on .45 ACP and groups at 100 yards were better. Inside 75 yards you won't see a difference, but at extended ranges such as 150-200 yards and beyond, it really becomes very obvious. 500 yards is night and day.

Is it possible to roll crimp 45 ACP? Everything I read says a taper crimp should be used. You must be talking about 45 ACP and revolvers. I'm interested in this as I have a 625-8 and I might do some experimenting with the crimps. My understanding is the case still head spaces on the case mouth as it's possible to use the 625 without moon clips. Am I wrong? I need to look at the cylinder now, very curious.

[okie john]

**Dumb Question Alert**

All my cast lead reloading has basically been for plinking, nothing too serious.

Wouldn’t a heavy crimp like you describe have the potential to deform/shave the bullet more on firing perhaps allowing more chance of leading? I recall somewhere reading about crimping and shaving, maybe it was with coated bullets (???). Thinking at it further, it would also seem that if there WAS shaving from the crimp, that the pressure and obturation would turn around and negate that...

Something that has been clanging around in my brain for a long time now... insights?

It's no problem to apply a heavy roll crimp IF the bullet has a proper crimp groove like this one.

72927

Even a shallower groove like this one can work, you just can't crimp as deeply.

72928

But if you crimp deeper than the groove allows or you crimp outside of the groove, then you will damage the bullet. Same if you crimp a bullet that doesn't have a groove like this one.

72929

Those you have to crimp over the bullet's leading edge. You can also apply a roll crimp over the leading edge of any bullet. It looks odd but it works.


Okie John

[okie john]

Is it possible to roll crimp 45 ACP? Everything I read says a taper crimp should be used. You must be talking about 45 ACP and revolvers. I'm interested in this as I have a 625-8 and I might do some experimenting with the crimps. My understanding is the case still head spaces on the case mouth as it's possible to use the 625 without moon clips. Am I wrong? I need to look at the cylinder now, very curious.

I experimented with crimp a in S&W Model of 1989 several years ago.

Headspace can vary on S&W 45 ACP revolvers, going all the way back to the original 1917. Some won't fire 45 ACP ammo without moon clips. Mine would, but once I realized that it and my 1911 required different loads for best results, I switched to 45 Auto Rim brass in the revolver to avoid confusion. My RCBS 45 ACP die has a roll crimp shoulder but I had to screw it really deep into the press for it to work. Unfortunately, that gave the cartridge a very heavy taper crimp long before it reached the roll crimp shoulder. That sized the driving band down several thousandths and accuracy was non-existent. I had a buddy cut the bottom 1/2" or so off of an extra 45 Colt crimp die, which game me a roll crimp without the taper crimp. Groups shrank dramatically and velocity became much more consistent for the reasons that Lost River has stated.

I ultimately sold that revolver because I was trying to consolidate things and that left me with another cartridge and another type of brass to manage. Also, despite having a full underlug, it weighed less than my 4" Model 29-2, so it kicked harder with similar loads.

It was a nice revolver but can't say that I miss it.


Okie John

[Borderland]

I experimented with crimp a in S&W Model of 1989 several years ago.

Headspace can vary on S&W 45 ACP revolvers, going all the way back to the original 1917. Some won't fire 45 ACP ammo without moon clips. Mine would, but once I realized that it and my 1911 required different loads for best results, I switched to 45 Auto Rim brass in the revolver to avoid confusion. My RCBS 45 ACP die has a roll crimp shoulder but I had to screw it really deep into the press for it to work. Unfortunately, that gave the cartridge a very heavy taper crimp long before it reached the roll crimp shoulder. That sized the driving band down several thousandths and accuracy was non-existent. I had a buddy cut the bottom 1/2" or so off of an extra 45 Colt crimp die, which game me a roll crimp without the taper crimp. Groups shrank dramatically and velocity became much more consistent for the reasons that Lost River has stated.

I ultimately sold that revolver because I was trying to consolidate things and that left me with another cartridge and another type of brass to manage. Also, despite having a full underlug, it weighed less than my 4" Model 29-2, so it kicked harder with similar loads.

It was a nice revolver but can't say that I miss it.


Okie John

I keep getting bullet creep with my 625 so I'm looking for solutions. I apply a heavy taper crimp and that eliminates it for the most part but I still see some creep. I may have to go back to FMJ bullets exclusively. Coated lead isn't working out real well. I like the revolver enough to keep it. I just put a Vortex red dot on it.

[okie john]

I keep getting bullet creep with my 625 so I'm looking for solutions. I apply a heavy taper crimp and that eliminates it for the most part but I still see some creep. I may have to go back to FMJ bullets exclusively. Coated lead isn't working out real well. I like the revolver enough to keep it. I just put a Vortex red dot on it.

One of the best things about a 45 ACP revolver is the ability to use inexpensive lead bullets. But that demands a roll crimp like Elmer Keith described before WWII, especially as bullet weight increases.

Pretty much any machine shop should be able to shorten a 45 Colt sizing die, or a gunsmith might be able to open up a 45 ACP taper crimp die enough to remove the taper crimp function but leave the roll crimp shoulder. I don't know if that would be optimal or if there's enough of a shoulder there to get you as much crimp as you need. In either case, modifying a die only has to be done once and it's far cheaper in the long run than switching to jacketed bullets, especially if current shortages continue.

I'm not sure, but lighter bullets might not creep as much in a taper crimp.


Okie John

[41magfan]

There's a guy in these parts who cut down a 686 cylinder to take .38 Short Colts and machined a barrel with an extension to the now-shortened cylinder. The picture I saw of the gun looked nice and I only met the guy one time over two years ago.

(We chatted because I was the only one shooting a revolver at an outlaw IDPA match.)

I could be wrong, but I think this is the guy that might have pioneered the short cylinder concept ....

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/922/5hJ7LU.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm5hJ7LUj)

[okie john]

I could be wrong, but I think this is the guy that might have pioneered the short cylinder concept ....

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/922/5hJ7LU.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm5hJ7LUj)

Elmer Keith's book Sixguns has a picture of a S&W 1917 done that way. It was published in 1955, so somebody was doing them before that.

I'll see if I can find my copy.


Okie John

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I never realized that .38sc is about the same length as 9mm Luger.

Does anyone know if one can get 9mm velocities with less powder than would be required in a .38/.357 case? I would think so, and if so it truly would be a more "efficient" cartridge in terms of less recoil and muzzle blast, without any of the potential drawbacks of 9mm in a revolver.

What would have less recoil? A 9mm LCR throwing a 124gr at 1000 fps or a .357 lcr loaded with .38sc throwing a 125gr at 1000 fps?

[Caballoflaco]

Bruce Cartwright

I wonder if Cotterman’s experiments are what led to the short lived 9mm Federal I asked about on here a few weeks ago?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?47839-9mm-Federal-(rimmed)

[Spartan1980]

I keep getting bullet creep with my 625 so I'm looking for solutions. I apply a heavy taper crimp and that eliminates it for the most part but I still see some creep. I may have to go back to FMJ bullets exclusively. Coated lead isn't working out real well. I like the revolver enough to keep it. I just put a Vortex red dot on it.

Without a cannelure or shoulder to crimp over there is no cure for bullet creep, at least not that I've ever found. The 625 will teach you really quick that crimp doesn't hold a bullet in place and neck tension to do so is not workable, this gun is just a kinetic bullet puller and there's no getting around that. Except....

I have pics somewhere in the depths of my computer that I can't find right now but I was able to get some unbelievable consistency out of my 625 by eliminating the bullet pull. The pics are the rounds and the chrono card at the Memphis Charity Challenge. At chrono in USPSA they fire three rounds over the chrono. Two of my rounds were the same number. The other was 3 FPS different. The guy finished up and asked "what the hell kinda powder are you using?" I told him Clays.

What I did was load 200 grain RN from Bayou Bullets seated very deep, as in past the shoulder, the shoulder down inside the case kind of deep by about .030" or so. I then heavily roll crimped over that shoulder with a Redding profile crimp die. They looked silly almost like simunition rounds. That was probably 95% of it, the rest would have been the sorted by headstamp brass and Federal GMM primers. I worked up this load specifically for this match. It wasn't a chrono fluke either because I did the same EXACT variance with that batch of ammo at the Area 4 Championship the next year. Two shots same velocity, the third 3 FPS different.

I've not found a bullet that will stay put without extravagant means at the loading bench in this gun.

[Borderland]

Without a cannelure or shoulder to crimp over there is no cure for bullet creep, at least not that I've ever found. The 625 will teach you really quick that crimp doesn't hold a bullet in place and neck tension to do so is not workable, this gun is just a kinetic bullet puller and there's no getting around that. Except....

I have pics somewhere in the depths of my computer that I can't find right now but I was able to get some unbelievable consistency out of my 625 by eliminating the bullet pull. The pics are the rounds and the chrono card at the Memphis Charity Challenge. At chrono in USPSA they fire three rounds over the chrono. Two of my rounds were the same number. The other was 3 FPS different. The guy finished up and asked "what the hell kinda powder are you using?" I told him Clays.

What I did was load 200 grain RN from Bayou Bullets seated very deep, as in past the shoulder, the shoulder down inside the case kind of deep by about .030" or so. I then heavily roll crimped over that shoulder with a Redding profile crimp die. They looked silly almost like simunition rounds. That was probably 95% of it, the rest would have been the sorted by headstamp brass and Federal GMM primers. I worked up this load specifically for this match. It wasn't a chrono fluke either because I did the same EXACT variance with that batch of ammo at the Area 4 Championship the next year. Two shots same velocity, the third 3 FPS different.

I've not found a bullet that will stay put without extravagant means at the loading bench in this gun.



I'm going to try some 200 gr FMJ bullets. If that doesn't work I'll try something else. That's half the fun of reloading. I would like to find one load that works in my 625, my HK-45 and my Gold Cup. Probably never get there.

[jetfire]

I have thought of trying out USPSA revolver Major with my GP100.
Using 38SC brass on a moon-clipped gun seemed to be the way to go.

Not sure about getting major PF out of it though.

If you were going to try something like that, it would be a lot easier to just shoot 357 Magnum, which all pretty reliably makes major power factor.

[Jim Watson]

.38 SC is about the same case length as 9mm P so .38 SC Major would be in the same load range as 9mm Major.

Of course the main use of .38 SC is to speed the reload of a 9 shooter which is commonly shot in Minor.

[Bruce Cartwright]

I recall that concept cartridge from Cotterman also! (We are old, Bruce!) Didn't he call it the .357 Special?

Wayne:

You may be right as to the name Cotterman gave the cartridge. I am now going to have to see if I can find the article. As to old, guilty as charged. I seem to see the bottom of ibuprofen bottles with greater frequency lately...

Did you find the side plate you were looking for?

Bruce

[Bruce Cartwright]

Bruce Cartwright

I wonder if Cotterman’s experiments are what led to the short lived 9mm Federal I asked about on here a few weeks ago?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?47839-9mm-Federal-(rimmed)

Caballoflaco:

I couldn't say for sure. It is certainly possibly because the article predated the introduction of the 9mm Federal by a number of years. Some of the folks writing for gun magazines sometimes ended up working in the industry. One author, Terry Murbach, who wrote for Petersen's Handguns, ended up working for CorBon I believe.

Bruce

[OlongJohnson]

I never realized that .38sc is about the same length as 9mm Luger.

Does anyone know if one can get 9mm velocities with less powder than would be required in a .38/.357 case? I would think so, and if so it truly would be a more "efficient" cartridge in terms of less recoil and muzzle blast, without any of the potential drawbacks of 9mm in a revolver.

I'm thinking along the lines of .45 Auto Rim, but smaller.

I have an M&P 340 that's rated for .357 pressures. I would think it should be safe with 9mm pressures. So a 125gr XTP, working up from 124gr 9mm starting data should be reasonable. Wouldn't necessarily have to go to full 9mm velocity, just .38 SPL 4-inch velocity to get decent expansion, since that's what the bullet is engineered for. Need to crunch some more numbers and then break out some tooling, but it's interesting. More sure ejection with a snubbie ejector is attractive.

[Jim Watson]

Back to the 38 Short Colt, if I recall correctly, a gentleman named Dan Cotterman, who at one time wrote handloading columns/articles for the American Handgunner, experimented with a shortened version of the 38 Special. I don't recall all of the details, but his theory was a shortened 38 Special case was significantly more efficient with modern powders and he achieved some pretty impressive velocities. Mr. Cotterman was looking for better performance for defensive/hunting loads as I recall. You may be onto something with the 38 SC. It might be worth a look through the old Handgunner issues to see if you can find the article. Food for thought.

Bruce

MY recollection is that Cotterman was a regular contributor to Gun World, home of Lone Ranger Go Awaaay and the silver bullet.
I was not buying all issues and did not see the original article but a later reference to "that squatty-roo, the .357 Short."

How about a S&W BSR and .38 S&W +P+.

[03RN]

I'm thinking along the lines of .45 Auto Rim, but smaller.

I have an M&P 340 that's rated for .357 pressures. I would think it should be safe with 9mm pressures. So a 125gr XTP, working up from 124gr 9mm starting data should be reasonable. Wouldn't necessarily have to go to full 9mm velocity, just .38 SPL 4-inch velocity to get decent expansion, since that's what the bullet is engineered for. Need to crunch some more numbers and then break out some tooling, but it's interesting. More sure ejection with a snubbie ejector is attractive.

I haven't seen great performance of the 125gr xtp under 1100fps

[willie]

That makes life easier!


I am using a mix of 9mm and 38 special dies.


BTW, when it comes to long range (as in hundreds of yards) handgunning the LEE roll crimp die is absolutely critical. I learned that lesson shooting past 5-600 yards. I had huge fliers, rounds that would go yards off away from where the others were going. Then when the guy I was shooting with diagnosed my stuff looking for the reason why, he looked at my ammo and immediately recognized the issue.

Short version is that with the roll crimp, and a good heavy crimp, the round has time to build up pressure and gets a more consistent even release. The results down range were dramatic as soon as I switched. I even switched on .45 ACP and groups at 100 yards were better. Inside 75 yards you won't see a difference, but at extended ranges such as 150-200 yards and beyond, it really becomes very obvious. 500 yards is night and day.

Lee makes 3 dies that crimp. One is the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. Another is the Lee Collet Die. A third is the regular crimp die included in its die sets. I think it may combine a taper and roll crimp capacity. In the past, all pistol die sets were sold with roll crimp dies, even those that headspace on the case mouth. With these, using cases that did headspace on the case mouth, you did not get in trouble unless you crimped the case into a crimp groove. Even then the extractor would headspace the case.

You are correct about using a proper crimp to provide sufficient bullet pull. Case tension against the bullet itself is a factor. Another is a strong roll crimp. Your cases appear to me to have been crimped in a collet die. If crimped in the regular Lee die, this die is taper crimping and roll crimping at the same time.

Good work, sir!

[JodyH]

Now if S&W would just come out with a slightly shorter frame and cylinder, longer barreled J frame for 9mm and 38sc... we'd have the perfect CCW revolver.
I'm thinking a 2-3/8" barreled J that's the same overall length as the current 1-7/8" barreled J.

[Bruce Cartwright]

MY recollection is that Cotterman was a regular contributor to Gun World, home of Lone Ranger Go Awaaay and the silver bullet.
I was not buying all issues and did not see the original article but a later reference to "that squatty-roo, the .357 Short."

How about a S&W BSR and .38 S&W +P+.

Jim:

You may be correct. I haven't had a chance to research any of the old Handgunner issues yet though. I often read Gun World because of Dean Grennell's and Tom Ferguson's articles. Mr. Grennell was pretty inquisitive and experimented with a wide variety of reloading topics. He did a multi article series on reloading, that I wisely photocopied. I still refer to it occasionally.

Bruce

[Jim Watson]

Now if S&W would just come out with a slightly shorter frame and cylinder, longer barreled J frame for 9mm and 38sc... we'd have the perfect CCW revolver.
I'm thinking a 2-3/8" barreled J that's the same overall length as the current 1-7/8" barreled J.

Describes reviving the Regulation Police and Terrier Improved I frame +P rated.

[jtcarm]

.38 SC is very popular for USPSA Revo and ICORE. Those short cases load & eject fast with moons.

Mosey over to Brian Enid forums for load data.

[spyderco monkey]

I never realized that .38sc is about the same length as 9mm Luger.

Does anyone know if one can get 9mm velocities with less powder than would be required in a .38/.357 case? I would think so, and if so it truly would be a more "efficient" cartridge in terms of less recoil and muzzle blast, without any of the potential drawbacks of 9mm in a revolver.

What would have less recoil? A 9mm LCR throwing a 124gr at 1000 fps or a .357 lcr loaded with .38sc throwing a 125gr at 1000 fps?

That was my thinking as well; run .38SC as a sort of 'rimmed 9x19' for .357 revolvers, using 9mm NATO pressure charge (36kpsi vs 37.5kpsi for .357 mag.)

Recoil / blast should be less then .357 / identical to 9x19; with less volume in the case, it will take fewer grains of powder in the .38sc/9x19 case to hit 36kpsi then it will in the longer .357 case.

I'm curious if the extra cylinder length of firing the 9x19 length cartridge in a .357 will act as a sort of ~0.4" extra barrel length?

[Super77]

Now if S&W would just come out with a slightly shorter frame and cylinder, longer barreled J frame for 9mm and 38sc... we'd have the perfect CCW revolver.
I'm thinking a 2-3/8" barreled J that's the same overall length as the current 1-7/8" barreled J.

Now that's an idea. Better give it properly dimensioned barrel and cylinder throats while you're at it.

[JWintergreen]

As someone that prefers speedloaders to moonclips and does not even like firing .38s in .357 chambers, I have never ventured into the world of .38 Short/Long Colt. I also love .38 Special, and I would argue that D frame size revolvers are already carry revolver perfection. The revolver market has picked up and now several companies are offering those. Hopefully, that trend will continue and Ruger will finally jump in the water.

However, the idea of a short frame, medium bore revolver with a good performing cartridge has always intrigued me. We almost had this with the 9mm Federal, but the concern over rocket doctors loading it in .38 S&W revolvers and low interest at the time caused it to be a stillborn cartridge.

Also, when the I frame was canned S&W made some J frame Regulation Police revolvers in .32 Long and .38 S&W. However, they never made a 4" fixed sight .38 Special version. That would be a handy little gun (particularly in brushed stainless), and would be a nice offering in their "Classic Series."

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I'm curious if the extra cylinder length of firing the 9x19 length cartridge in a .357 will act as a sort of ~0.4" extra barrel length?

I believe that it will, based on my reading of 10mm revolver chronograph tests.

[Jim Watson]

Just think, if you could get a blank .357 cylinder and chamber it 9mm with a straight .356" throat. About half an inch of true freebore with gas seal and alignment. Might want progressive rifling in the barrel like the monster magnums.

[jtcarm]

I keep getting bullet creep with my 625 so I'm looking for solutions. I apply a heavy taper crimp and that eliminates it for the most part but I still see some creep. I may have to go back to FMJ bullets exclusively. Coated lead isn't working out real well. I like the revolver enough to keep it. I just put a Vortex red dot on it.

You can roll crimp for a revolver, but you’ll have to use moon clips or AR brass for it to headspace on.

[OlongJohnson]

Just think, if you could get a blank .357 cylinder and chamber it 9mm with a straight .356" throat. About half an inch of true freebore with gas seal and alignment. Might want progressive rifling in the barrel like the monster magnums.

Isn't a used .22 or .32 cylinder effectively the same thing as a blank .357?

[Jim Watson]

No, but would amount to a blank .38 cylinder, the system would still work.
I don't know what the throats are in the occasional dedicated 9mm revolver. Maybe close enough to serve.

[jtcarm]

I believe that it will, based on my reading of 10mm revolver chronograph tests.

Apples to oranges.

The reason 10mm revolvers frequently outperform their bottom-feeding brethren is they’re built on frames designed for rounds that are 30% longer. This gives them extra-long chamber throats, aka free-bore, so the bullet gets a running start before hitting the rifling.

Extra-long throats are not the same thing as extra-long chambers.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Extra-long throats are not the same thing as extra-long chambers.

Could you explain this in more detail?

[jandbj]

I bought 500 rounds of these from Ted. Super excited to try them a few lightweight revolvers.

And yeah, I bought a set of dies to reload them afterwards too.

[Lost River]

They are loads of fun!

I am going next week to a little place north of Helena Montana next week and brining some for a friend over there to feed J Frames. Of course being prime Grizzly country I will be packing something a little more substantial along as well. :cool:

Been loading LOTS of regular .38s lately. It would seem the 9mm market has peaked, but I can't make .38 special fast enough!

I know it is "coulda, woulda. shoulda, but I definitely should have ordered more .38 Special brass from Starline when it was available! Plus dang bullets are 8 weeks out with everyone!

OOOF!!!

Tomorrow is 148 grain wadcutter day!

[Lost River]

It ends up that the day before yesterday (Friday) a guy jogging in Island Park Idaho, jogged up on a sow Grizzly and cubs. She took offense to him running up on her children and proceeded to give him a piece of her mind. He was smart enough to not run. He got down on the ground and got smacked around a bit, and then mom and the kids took off. He decided he would do the same and went back to his cabin and got help.

I told my MT friends that I am meeting and hiking with about the Friday attack. They asked if I could bring some .44s and .45 too. LOL.

Figured I would load some of these up for the .45s. They have been sitting under my bench for a long time. I honestly cannot even recall where I got them from.

https://i.imgur.com/mjcYNWA.jpg

I know the mold is a 255 grain flat point. They dropped averaging 257 grains. My question is, which .45 do I use the in for my trip? I am really loving the 4563 PC gun, but think a Glock 21 would be a better choice for a trail gun due to capacity. On the other hand, I know I will bring a .44 mag, for short hikes where weight is not a big concern. I don't intend on bringing an arsenal. Prefer to just bring two guns. The .44 and something else. The 4563 is like a LW commander, and works as a "Going to town/going to dinner" piece, so it may get the nod.

Then the G30S came to mind...:rolleyes:

[entropy]

Well...whatever you decide, pics are in order!

[Lost River]

Of course!

So I am texting some of the people I am hiking with last night, talking about bears, the usual stuff. One of the people is a truly gorgeous tall blonde gal. Long legs. I have hiked with her before. She booked it up a mountain trail to a waterfall south of Livingston a couple months ago. I thought about putting rocks in her pockets to slow her down!

Last night I was touching base with her about logistics stuff. She says she hates bears, I told her not to worry about it.

Then I have the mother of all auto-correct typos. I told her that in reference to the bears not to worry, that she is faster than I am. Except it didn't come out that way. My phone auto-corrected to saying she was fatter than I was:

https://i.imgur.com/wjmDexG.jpg


My fingers could not try to un-FUBAR that mother of all FUBARs fast enough!

:eek:






https://i.imgur.com/jEI6oii.gif

[UNM1136]

Let's go the other direction. I love my LCR 9mm. It is currently my only revolver. It would seem that these would be soft recoiling rimmed cartridges that would make screwing around shooting a lot more fun than using moon clips....but for the .357/.366 issue....could load 9mm boolets instead of 38s for this pupose.

Am I far off base here?

My LCR was pressed into bunny duty last turkey season, and did better than Great Granddad's A5 Lightweight 12, since the only turkeys we saw were out of range and stayed that way.

pat

[03RN]

It ends up that the day before yesterday (Friday) a guy jogging in Island Park Idaho, jogged up on a sow Grizzly and cubs. She took offense to him running up on her children and proceeded to give him a piece of her mind. He was smart enough to not run. He got down on the ground and got smacked around a bit, and then mom and the kids took off. He decided he would do the same and went back to his cabin and got help.

I told my MT friends that I am meeting and hiking with about the Friday attack. They asked if I could bring some .44s and .45 too. LOL.

Figured I would load some of these up for the .45s. They have been sitting under my bench for a long time. I honestly cannot even recall where I got them from.

https://i.imgur.com/mjcYNWA.jpg

I know the mold is a 255 grain flat point. They dropped averaging 257 grains. My question is, which .45 do I use the in for my trip? I am really loving the 4563 PC gun, but think a Glock 21 would be a better choice for a trail gun due to capacity. On the other hand, I know I will bring a .44 mag, for short hikes where weight is not a big concern. I don't intend on bringing an arsenal. Prefer to just bring two guns. The .44 and something else. The 4563 is like a LW commander, and works as a "Going to town/going to dinner" piece, so it may get the nod.

Then the G30S came to mind...:rolleyes:

If a .45 auto is the question. Then the 1911 is your answer:cool:

[Wyoming Shooter]

Is .38 SC brass in stock anywhere? Starline is out. Thanks.

[blake_g]

Is .38 SC brass in stock anywhere? Starline is out. Thanks.

And the next component shortage begins!!! LOL

[Catshooter]

Shit Lost, just have her carry the 870 & bandoleer of ammo. That should slow her down enough for you to keep up.


Cat

[jandbj]

Finally got a chance to shoot these today in a Taurus 856UL...


BUY SOME!!! Get some dies too. I can see this becoming my favorite round gun load.

[Bruce Cartwright]

I recall that concept cartridge from Cotterman also! (We are old, Bruce!) Didn't he call it the .357 Special?

Wayne:

I did some digging around the American Handgunner Classic Editions that AH keeps in digital format and found the reference. Here is the link: "https://americanhandgunner.com/1978issues/HJA78.pdf". Mr. Cotterman's column begins on page 58. He called the cartridge the 357 Short. The short version is that he achieved a 20% to 25% increase in velocities. The time frame when he experimented with the 357 Short was about 20 years prior to the 1978 article. A 20% increase is pretty significant.

Food for thought.

Bruce

[Hambo]

Wayne:

I did some digging around the American Handgunner Classic Editions that AH keeps in digital format and found the reference. Here is the link: "https://americanhandgunner.com/1978issues/HJA78.pdf". Mr. Cotterman's column begins on page 58. He called the cartridge the 357 Short. The short version is that he achieved a 20% to 25% increase in velocities. The time frame when he experimented with the 357 Short was about 20 years prior to the 1978 article. A 20% increase is pretty significant.

Food for thought.

Bruce

Thanks for posting that. Aside from the data, I really like vintage gun porn. :cool:

[john c]

Wayne:

I did some digging around the American Handgunner Classic Editions that AH keeps in digital format and found the reference. Here is the link: "https://americanhandgunner.com/1978issues/HJA78.pdf". Mr. Cotterman's column begins on page 58. He called the cartridge the 357 Short. The short version is that he achieved a 20% to 25% increase in velocities. The time frame when he experimented with the 357 Short was about 20 years prior to the 1978 article. A 20% increase is pretty significant.

Food for thought.

Bruce

That was a great article, and time capsule. The author was trimming his .38 spl brass to .9 inches, which is about mid way between .38 Short Colt (0.76 inches) and .38 Long Colt (1.02 inches).

I did note that his load data seemed in line with current recommendations, not counting the 19% reduction in case capacity.

[Salamander]

Alright, you guys have made me curious. Lee dies ordered and on the way, 38 SC brass backordered so can't load til whenever that arrives. Have plenty of everything else and a couple of ideas on what to try.

[OlongJohnson]

Alright, you guys have made me curious. Lee dies ordered and on the way, 38 SC brass backordered so can't load til whenever that arrives. Have plenty of everything else and a couple of ideas on what to try.

I backordered Starline .38 SC brass last night and got a tracking number today.

[Salamander]

I backordered Starline .38 SC brass last night and got a tracking number today.

Yep. Placed my order a couple hours before posting yesterday, and just got my tracking number. So even though it's still showing as backorder on the Starline site as of a few minutes ago, they are shipping.

I know they sell more than a little 38 SC brass to competition shooters, can't help but wonder though if they've seen a measurable spike in orders because of this thread.

[OlongJohnson]

Wonder if the backorder thing is just to throttle the sales and keep someone from hoarding it and trying to make some bucks flipping it.

[Flamingo]

I ordered some .38 Short Colt brass as well. I need to get some good bullets for it now, unless plated 158 gr Rainier HP will work.

[jh9]

With everyone jumping on the .38 short colt bandwagon I'm sure over on benos there's like a dozen 8 minor shooters wondering WTF is happening to all the brass. :confused:

[Flamingo]

Brass length extreme.

77147

Insert witty meme here.

[WDR]

Brass length extreme.

77147

Insert witty meme here.

It's not the length... it's the girth... er, ah, meplat. Or something.

[Flamingo]

Think these will work after the expiration date?

77348

I am going to load these using a light to middle 9mm load using Ramshot True Blue powder.

[Wyoming Shooter]

I now have 500 Starline 38 SC cases and Lee 38 SC dies. Has anyone developed loads for 125 or 158 grain coated bullets using Clays powder? Thanks very much.

[jtcarm]

I now have 500 Starline 38 SC cases and Lee 38 SC dies. Has anyone developed loads for 125 or 158 grain coated bullets using Clays powder? Thanks very much.

Beware of .38 SC load data you find around the net: much of it is intended to make power factor in ICORE and USPSA, and Clays is a favorite of competitors.

While 125 PF sounds wimpy, the Clays loads I see people using in the Short Colt to make it (they exceed it to provide a margin) would be close to a 20% over-charge in a .38 Special case. That is a huge increase for a powder as fast as Clays. And they’re using a smaller case.

My .38 Special IDPA/practice load is a max charge of Clays behind a 158 cast RN. I suffered some brain flatulence one day and set my measure not quite 10% over max (still well short of 125PF loads in SC case) Judging by the report, I was in +P territory.

I don’t get what the buzz over shooting .38 Short Colt in a .357 is all about, but whatever floats your boat.

[OlongJohnson]

I am using a 125 grain Missouri Bullet Company Cowboy #2 Truncated Cone Flat Point.

I notice Midway is having a sale on Berry's 125-gr flat point .357 plated bullets. Same price per bullet, but would save on freight to get everything at Midway. Wondering whether the Berry's may not work as well due to lack of a cannelure and not being able to get the roll crimp.


Now for Dillon guys, this is a good little tidbit here. It seems obvious when you think about it after the fact, but not knowing has caused a few guys some headaches in experimentation. Use a 9mm powder funnel in the powder station rather than a .38 special or anything else. I use a 9mm Lee crimp die on the 4th station to give the ammo a slight roll crimp.

This one? https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011209519


I am using a mix of 9mm and 38 special dies.

BTW, when it comes to long range (as in hundreds of yards) handgunning the LEE roll crimp die is absolutely critical. I learned that lesson shooting past 5-600 yards. I had huge fliers, rounds that would go yards off away from where the others were going. Then when the guy I was shooting with diagnosed my stuff looking for the reason why, he looked at my ammo and immediately recognized the issue.

Short version is that with the roll crimp, and a good heavy crimp, the round has time to build up pressure and gets a more consistent even release. The results down range were dramatic as soon as I switched. I even switched on .45 ACP and groups at 100 yards were better. Inside 75 yards you won't see a difference, but at extended ranges such as 150-200 yards and beyond, it really becomes very obvious. 500 yards is night and day.

I'm not likely to shoot these past 75 yards, especially out of my J frame. Is it worth buying the Lee Factory Crimp die instead of just using my Redding taper crimp 9mm die? Or would you recommend the Lee die for my regular 9mm loading, too?


Found this post on benos: https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/114568-reloading-dies-for-38-short-colt/?do=findComment&comment=1309939


My set-up for .38Short-Colt, (in Dillon XL650), is:
- Resizer: RCBS 38/357
- Powder funnel: 9 mm.(Dillon)
- Seater: RCBS 9mm. or 38/357 it's the same
- Taper Crimp: RCBS 9mm. (sometimes Dillon .38super)
- Factory Crimp die Lee: 9 mm.
work fine for me !

So it looks like I should be able to use:
Sizer: Lee .38SPL
Powder funnel: 9 mm.(Dillon), or scoop (if that proves reliable at a charge weight I like), or Redding 10X if not using the Dillon
Seater: Redding 9mm or (possibly) Lee 38/357
Taper crimp: Redding 9mm
or
Roll crimp: Factory Crimp Die Lee 9 mm

I have AA #2, HP-38 and Titegroup (not TiteWad). Hodgdon's data for .38 Short Colt looks ridiculously light. For 9mm, they do list 2.9-3.4 grains Titewad with a 124gr Berry's TP bullet. The HP-38 and Titegroup loads are considerably faster. Western lists several 9mm starting loads for AA#2 at 3.3-3.4 grains with 124gr bullets in the 8xx fps range, so that seems likely to be safe. I'll still try to scare up some Titewad for this project. Will see what the local shop has tomorrow.

Thanks for any guidance!

----------------------

ETA: Looked at Hodgdon's data for .38SPL vs. 9mm with Titegroup. Attraction of Titegroup is I have more of it than any other pistol powder, because I found it cheap back when powder was cheap. Its tendency to run a little hot is OK with a revolver, where the cylinder has a lot of mass and reloads are slow. With these super light loads, I'm not worried about flame cutting.

9mm
124 GR. BERB HBRN TP
Hodgdon Titegroup 0.356" 1.150" 3.6 957 27,700 PSI 4.1 1,057 32,700 PSI

.38 SPL
125 GR. CAST LRNFP
Hodgdon Titegroup 0.358" 1.445" 3.2 856 8,400 CUP 3.8 985 12,000 CUP

125 GR. HDY XTP
Hodgdon Titegroup 0.357" 1.455" 4.3 953 12,800 CUP 4.6 1,010 15,600 CUP

It's hard to imagine looking at that data that something like 3.2gr Titegroup on the .38SC case wouldn't be perfectly safe in revolvers chambered for .357, even though it breaks the rule of going below the starting charge for 9mm. Maybe it's another excuse to buy a strain gage setup and put it on my .38 SPL Contender barrel...

[OlongJohnson]

Got my order from Missouri Bullets. https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=256

Not impressed so far. Just opened one box. Lots of the bases are angled, rather than perpendicular to the bullet axis, which shifts the c.g. toward the long side. When the c.g. isn't centered, the spin causes the bullet to take a trajectory in the direction the orbiting c.g. is moving at the instant the bullet clears the barrel. This result is random, so you can expect random accuracy. Even worse, quite a few have essentially casting flash, overfill of the mold, or something where there is too much material on the base and it hangs out past the OD of the bullet - but of course not radially symmetric. Expect they'll hang up loading if not dressed or sized, and with that much random extra material, will be unlikely to provide consistent accuracy.

I'm waffling on whether to collect some data, like weights on a 30-piece sample, before I call up Missouri and ask them to take them all back. I really don't want to hand-sort a bunch of 8.4-cent bullets to try to decide which ones might be useable.

I'm thinking about just buying some Berry's 125gr for 9 cents each, but they have no cannelure for crimping. Not sure it matters in this load shot from a J frame, though.

Or I could suck it up and buy XTPs for 20 cents, knowing they'll likely act like FMJs, but the accuracy should be excellent and they have a cannelure for crimping. That kinda gets away from the cheap-fun plinking and practice aspect.

Anyone have thoughts?

[OlongJohnson]

I'm waffling on whether to collect some data, like weights on a 30-piece sample, before I call up Missouri and ask them to take them all back. I really don't want to hand-sort a bunch of 8.4-cent bullets to try to decide which ones might be useable.

Statistics of a 30-piece sample below. The only non-random part is the first three are bullets that stood out visually as particularly ugly the first time I opened the box. (Just what I saw when I opened it, not sorting the box to find bad ones.) The rest were pulled at random and put on the scale. That's 5.6 grains of variation in the first 30 out of the box and predicts a 7.6 grain range in the population.

Think I'm going to be asking for a refund, rather than carry forward and chase my tail on trying to get a consistent load with these.

77895

77898

77897

[Jim Watson]

Those are ugly with a capital Ugh.
They are from a common mold but I can't say where to get the type and be sure of better quality and prompt delivery.

[OlongJohnson]

After reading some decent reviews of the company's products online, I ordered a box of these plated bullets last night:

https://accuraoutdoors.com/product/38-125-fp/

Haven't been able to find an actual photo of the bullets, so I'll be curious to see what I get.

Xtreme has a cannelured 125gr that's a little more of a truncated cone. The Accuras are cheaper.

[JAD]

I’ve loaded tens of thousands of MoBuCo stuff — that is not typical of the company as of a few years ago. Could be tough times, or the new way. I’d call them.

[Catshooter]

Those bases are FAIL to me. Guaranteed zero accuracy.

I'd balk too.


Cat

[JoeSixPack]

After reading some decent reviews of the company's products online, I ordered a box of these plated bullets last night:

https://accuraoutdoors.com/product/38-125-fp/

Haven't been able to find an actual photo of the bullets, so I'll be curious to see what I get.

Xtreme has a cannelured 125gr that's a little more of a truncated cone. The Accuras are cheaper.

Thanks for the tip. Just ordered a box of the Accura's. Also ordered 1000 of coated 125's from SNS Casting (https://www.snscasting.com/38-357-125-grain-flat-point-red-coated-1000ct/). I've used their non-coated bullets before and they've always been good. Will report back when they show up. Midsouth has the XTP's for $0.20/bullet (https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0035035710s/38-caliber-point357-diameter-125-grain-xtp-withcannelure-500-count-sleeve-(5-boxes-of-100-count)) and the Lee 38 SC dies (https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690276/38-short-and-long-colt-carbide-3-die-set-with-shellholder)in stock atm. Have them on order as well.

[OlongJohnson]

Think I'm going to be asking for a refund, rather than carry forward and chase my tail on trying to get a consistent load with these.

I emailed MoBuCo the photos and data I posted here, and they were very nice about arranging a return. Sent me a free shipping label and refunded both product and the freight I paid originally once the shipment arrived back at their plant. So A+ for customer service and taking care of the problem.


After reading some decent reviews of the company's products online, I ordered a box of these plated bullets last night:

https://accuraoutdoors.com/product/38-125-fp/

The Accuras showed up quickly. They look great and the several that I weighed were all pretty close to 125gr. Haven't loaded any yet, but expect it to go well.

[Flamingo]

Loaded up a few test rounds.

78796

Going to try them out tomorrow.

[Flamingo]

78830

38 Short Colt looks funny in a speed loader.

[Flamingo]

I went to the range, but like a dumbass I left the 38 Short Colt on the table in the basement. I did shoot my G19, which was its usual boring accurate and reliable self.

[Wyoming Shooter]

I've gathered 500 Starline cases,1000 coated 125 grain bullets, some Federal small pistol primers, and a good supply of Clays. I plan to get the party started this weekend with 3.5 grains of Clays. A couple questions:

1. What's the optimum OAL for .38 SC?

2. Will they run reliably in 1892 or 1894 lever guns? That could be great fun.

Thanks very much!

[60pilot]

I've gathered 500 Starline cases,1000 coated 125 grain bullets, some Federal small pistol primers, and a good supply of Clays. I plan to get the party started this weekend with 3.5 grains of Clays. A couple questions:

1. What's the optimum OAL for .38 SC?

2. Will they run reliably in 1892 or 1894 lever guns? That could be great fun.

Thanks very much!

Regarding your second point, I don’t think they will. In my Rossi 92 clone, I’ve found that .38 SPLs with an OAL less than approximately 1.5” don’t cycle well at all. I suspect that .38 SC would be equally problematic, but would be happy to hear otherwise.

[Flamingo]

I finally got to the range!

I just loaded 50 rounds as a test. The picture is a 50 round group.

I did a few with WOLF magnum rifle primers, and all of the ones with the Wolf SRM took two hits to send them down range. All of the rest went with no issue. I really need to invest in a chronograph.

79131

[Michpatriot]

I finally got to the range!

I just loaded 50 rounds as a test. The picture is a 50 round group.

I did a few with WOLF magnum rifle primers, and all of the ones with the Wolf SRM took two hits to send them down range. All of the rest went with no issue. I really need to invest in a chronograph.

79131

Those Nills as comfortable as I think? I'm gonna get a set for my 329, the closed back with slight thumb rest..
Following along and really tempted to get dies and make up some 135gr gold dot short mags..

[Flamingo]

Those Nills as comfortable as I think? I'm gonna get a set for my 329, the closed back with slight thumb rest..
Following along and really tempted to get dies and make up some 135gr gold dot short mags..

I wish they were Nills. These are Hogues. They are pretty nice, but I have only shot them with this load, so I don't know how they will do with Magnums. I bought this gun in 2005 or so and the only other time I have shot it was with wax bullets in the back yard.

[spyderco monkey]

I will just skip to the punchline. .38 Short Colt is the grandfather of .38 Special and it is essentially .38 Special brass cut to 9mm length.

In terms of creating a 'rimmed 9mm' for .357 pocket pistols, do you think the .38 Short Colt would be able to work with .355 9x19 projectiles?

I ask as I've got 5000+ 124gr Gold Dots. And in general theres a wider variety of 9x19 projectiles optimized for lower velocity performance than the typical 125gr .357 projectile.

If 9mm projectiles can work, then thats going to push me to get into .38 Short Colt.

[OlongJohnson]

Those Nills as comfortable as I think? I'm gonna get a set for my 329, the closed back with slight thumb rest..
Following along and really tempted to get dies and make up some 135gr gold dot short mags..

Given that the grip in question is a Hogue, it's likely very, very close to the Hogue no finger groove grip, which is essentially identical in side profile to the S&W X frame grip, minus the finger grooves.

I have two X frame grips for sale, new in package. They can be easily stretched onto any round butt N frame.

[OlongJohnson]

In terms of creating a 'rimmed 9mm' for .357 pocket pistols, do you think the .38 Short Colt would be able to work with .355 9x19 projectiles?

I ask as I've got 5000+ 124gr Gold Dots. And in general theres a wider variety of 9x19 projectiles optimized for lower velocity performance than the typical 125gr .357 projectile.

If 9mm projectiles can work, then thats going to push me to get into .38 Short Colt.

If you play with different dies, you can probably get a load to go bang and exit the barrel. The smaller bullets will likely have significantly inferior accuracy and lower velocity. Certainly, if you used non-jacketed, you'd expect some serious leading.

[john c]

In terms of creating a 'rimmed 9mm' for .357 pocket pistols, do you think the .38 Short Colt would be able to work with .355 9x19 projectiles?

I ask as I've got 5000+ 124gr Gold Dots. And in general theres a wider variety of 9x19 projectiles optimized for lower velocity performance than the typical 125gr .357 projectile.

If 9mm projectiles can work, then thats going to push me to get into .38 Short Colt.
Outpost75 literally wrote one of the books about this. Hopefully he weighs in.

If not, one of the key aspects of revolver accuracy is bullet fit in the cylinder throats. Otherwise the bullets yaw. Hopefully your throats are exactly .357-.358 and not bigger. Regardless, a .355 projectile will likely not give you great results. But they’ll probably be acceptable. As in instead of 2 inches at 25 yards, you’ll get maybe 4 inches.

Several bullet manufacturers make 125 gr .38 special spec bullets that expand at lower velocities. I’ve shot a bunch of the Remington jhp version.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Catshooter]

Just depends on what your barrel actually measures. At one time I had 7 .357s and they ran from .355 to .359+, so they can vary a lot. Two at .355 were 2.5" Smith 686s.

[OlongJohnson]

If they were from the electro-chemically machined rifling era, that doesn't surprise me. The depth of the grooves is entirely process dependent, which puts it in the variability maelstrom of S&W QC management. It's not even something that the tooling folks can control e.g. with a properly spec'ed button. I've seen some goofy electro-chemically machined rifling in S&W products.

[BehindBlueI's]

Those Nills as comfortable as I think? I'm gonna get a set for my 329, the closed back with slight thumb rest..
Following along and really tempted to get dies and make up some 135gr gold dot short mags..


I wish they were Nills. These are Hogues. They are pretty nice, but I have only shot them with this load, so I don't know how they will do with Magnums. I bought this gun in 2005 or so and the only other time I have shot it was with wax bullets in the back yard.

Other than color, they appear to be the same grip that comes on the GP100 Match Champion. It was fine with magnums for me, although I swapped to a compact grip for ease of carry.

[Ndbbm]

In terms of creating a 'rimmed 9mm' for .357 pocket pistols, do you think the .38 Short Colt would be able to work with .355 9x19 projectiles?

I ask as I've got 5000+ 124gr Gold Dots. And in general theres a wider variety of 9x19 projectiles optimized for lower velocity performance than the typical 125gr .357 projectile.

If 9mm projectiles can work, then thats going to push me to get into .38 Short Colt.


I’m going to parrot here the original post is over on revolverguy.com, https://revolverguy.com/the-38-special-hydra-shok-deep-journey/

“ To create the FBI’s .38 Special Hydra-Shok duty load, Federal loaded one of their 9mm, 147 grain Hydra-Shok bullets in a .38 Special case at +P+ pressures, to generate about 950 fps out of a 3” Model 13 revolver. Even though this 9mm bullet was only 0.355 inches in diameter, the accuracy was good enough to meet FBI standards in their .357 caliber revolvers.”

So I’m not sure how much to get hung up there is unless you want something like 1.5 inch groups at 25 vs 3 inch?

Jason

[03RN]

None of my .38s or .357s will let a .358 hardcast bullet through the throat except my 66-8 because I had it honed. .355 jacketed bullets might actually be more better

[OlongJohnson]

None of my .38s or .357s will let a .358 hardcast bullet through the throat except my 66-8 because I had it honed. .355 jacketed bullets might actually be more better

Off the top of my head:

The K frames I've measured all took a .357 ZZ- gage pin.
The J frames I've measured all took a .359 ZZ- gage pin.
The GP100 I've measured took a .3585 ZZ- gage pin.

One of the Js and the GP both leaded badly with Precision Delta .357 wadcutter loaded ammo. Didn't shoot the stuff through the Ks.

I've pulled a bullet from Sig Sauer 125gr FMJ factory .38 SPL ammo. It was actually plated and measured .356. Seems to shoot OK. I expect the Hornady HAP .356 125gr would do fine in many revolvers.

[Flamingo]

I will load some Montana Gold 124 grain JHPs and do an accuracy comparison with the ACME 125 gr FPPC bullets. I think I will do a 12 round group at 10 yards for both.

[spyderco monkey]

I’m going to parrot here the original post is over on revolverguy.com, https://revolverguy.com/the-38-special-hydra-shok-deep-journey/

“ To create the FBI’s .38 Special Hydra-Shok duty load, Federal loaded one of their 9mm, 147 grain Hydra-Shok bullets in a .38 Special case at +P+ pressures, to generate about 950 fps out of a 3” Model 13 revolver. Even though this 9mm bullet was only 0.355 inches in diameter, the accuracy was good enough to meet FBI standards in their .357 caliber revolvers.”

So I’m not sure how much to get hung up there is unless you want something like 1.5 inch groups at 25 vs 3 inch?

Jason

Awesome. That sounds very promising.

My two main concerns were:

-Bullets jumping out of the case under recoil in lightweight revolvers; a problem which I feared might be exacerbated by using the narrower .355 bullets in a .357..38spcl case.

-Having atrocious accuracy (like outside a paper plate at 10yds)

But it seems accuracy is not much a concern, and hopefully with a proper crimp, there would be no issue with bullet jump.

All in all, the DIY goal of a 9mm M&P 340 seems closer then ever :cool:

[spyderco monkey]

I will load some Montana Gold 124 grain JHPs and do an accuracy comparison with the ACME 125 gr FPPC bullets. I think I will do a 12 round group at 10 yards for both.

Wonderful, thank you for testing that.

[Flamingo]

Got the 38 Short Colt with the 124 gr Montana Gold JHPs loaded up. I did 5.6 grains of True Blue, CCI SPP, and Starline brass. Cartridge COAL is 1.18.

This data is based on the minimum load for a 9mm using a 124 bullet from Ramshot. I have loaded this load in my 9mm pistols for a few years with no issues and it has been pretty accurate.

79297

[Michpatriot]

Given that the grip in question is a Hogue, it's likely very, very close to the Hogue no finger groove grip, which is essentially identical in side profile to the S&W X frame grip, minus the finger grooves.

I have two X frame grips for sale, new in package. They can be easily stretched onto any round butt N frame.

I've got the Hogue 500 grips on it now and they are really good recoil wise, my only beef is that when gripping it quickly clearing leather.. if my grip is a bit off..it takes a bit of adjusting to get straight behind it on the grip and I'm hoping a set of wood that's shaped nice would let me grasp it smoother In a shooting grip first try without the sticky rubber shuffle.

[OlongJohnson]

I've seen YT videos where Miculek shoots one of his revolvers with what appears to be a Hogue rubber grip. It's powdered with something white; I have presumed it was chalk or talc to reduce the stickiness of it. In the video where he talks about his own grips, he discusses the lack of checkering as his preference so he can more easily adjust his grip on it when drawing quickly.

[Duelist]

Got the 38 Short Colt with the 124 gr Montana Gold JHPs loaded up. I did 5.6 grains of True Blue, CCI SPP, and Starline brass. Cartridge COAL is 1.18.

This data is based on the minimum load for a 9mm using a 124 bullet from Ramshot. I have loaded this load in my 9mm pistols for a few years with no issues and it has been pretty accurate.

79297

Those are cute.

[spyderco monkey]

Got the 38 Short Colt with the 124 gr Montana Gold JHPs loaded up. I did 5.6 grains of True Blue, CCI SPP, and Starline brass. Cartridge COAL is 1.18.

This data is based on the minimum load for a 9mm using a 124 bullet from Ramshot. I have loaded this load in my 9mm pistols for a few years with no issues and it has been pretty accurate.

79297

Awesome. The rimmed 9mm emerges. Thank you for testing this.

[Flamingo]

I will try to get to the range on Thursday.

[Flamingo]

Not my best shooting, but here are two targets. First group shot was 12 rounds of 125 gr .358 bullets. The second was 12 rounds of 124 gr .355 bullets. Shot DA because I don't want jetfire to get me.

79427

79428

I think for a real test I need to take the range out further, but with this I don't really see any difference. I still really, really need to get a chronograph.

[Wyoming Shooter]

I loaded my first few 38 Short Colts on my Dillon RL 550. Everything was pretty straightforward except for the powder funnel. I found that the F powder funnel from the 9mm conversion kit works. The 38/357 powder funnel is too short. I'll get some on paper next weekend.

79588

[Flamingo]

I found that the F powder funnel from the 9mm conversion kit works. The 38/357 powder funnel is too short.

Earlier in the post Lost River suggested running with the 9mm powder funnel, so that is what I did. I also use my 9mm Lee Factory Crimp Die.

[Wyoming Shooter]

Earlier in the post Lost River suggested running with the 9mm powder funnel, so that is what I did. I also use my 9mm Lee Factory Crimp Die.

We're on the same page. Someone who doesn't already own the Dillon 9mm conversion kit might be able to buy the F powder funnel only from Dillon. I have not checked. The Lee 38 Short Colt die sets works well. I am loading 125 grain coated bullets over 3.5 grains of Clays. I'm anxious to see how they shoot.

[Flamingo]

We're on the same page. Someone who doesn't already own the Dillon 9mm conversion kit might be able to buy the F powder funnel only from Dillon. I have not checked. The Lee 38 Short Colt die sets works well. I am loading 125 grain coated bullets over 3.5 grains of Clays. I'm anxious to see how they shoot.

I was pretty happy with the way they shot. There is almost no recoil even with the same load I do for 9mm.

[Wyoming Shooter]

79594

Left to right:

38 Short Colt 125 grain coated handload
38 Special 135 grain Speer Gold Dot
357 Magnum 125 grain Federal JHP

[Duelist]

I loaded my first few 38 Short Colts on my Dillon RL 550. Everything was pretty straightforward except for the powder funnel. I found that the F powder funnel from the 9mm conversion kit works. The 38/357 powder funnel is too short. I'll get some on paper next weekend.

79588

That revolver, though.... yummy.

[03RN]

That revolver, though.... yummy.

Yea, I want it.:cool: I almost think I could be as fast with that as with a 1911.

[Lost River]

In terms of creating a 'rimmed 9mm' for .357 pocket pistols, do you think the .38 Short Colt would be able to work with .355 9x19 projectiles?

I ask as I've got 5000+ 124gr Gold Dots. And in general theres a wider variety of 9x19 projectiles optimized for lower velocity performance than the typical 125gr .357 projectile.

If 9mm projectiles can work, then thats going to push me to get into .38 Short Colt.

I apologize for the lateness of my reply, I have been absolutely swamped with ammo orders. These guys have nailed the answers. I have tried this as well, shooting 9mm jacketed and cast, and found the results to be effective enough, but in the case of longer range true precision, you need to match the projectile size. For the vast majority of the closer in, 15 yard A-zone type stuff, it was sufficient.

The .38 Short Colt really is a nice little cartridge and it has been one of the better things about the shortage of components. Taking pages out of history and adding a modern twist has been pretty fun, not to mention quite effective.

[mikld]

Didn't read all 15 pages but I think I saw this mentioned; "rimmed 9mm"; https://www.rccbrass.com/9mm-federal/

[Flamingo]

I shot 50 more rounds today. I went out as far the pistol range goes 15 yards and other than a few bad trigger pulls (I jerked the trigger), it still shot amazing.

I then switched to 158 grain 38 Special. The POA/POI was exactly the same as the 125s in the short colt cases. I am pretty happy!

[Salamander]

Today I tested a bunch of different loads out of a Colt King Cobra 3-inch. 357 Magnum, 38 Special, and 38 Short Colt. One of the 38 SC loads, 125gr JHP with the equivalent of a standard pressure load of BE-86 for 9mm, gave one of the two best groups of the day. Other variations, mostly heavier coated bullets and various powders, were mostly acceptable.