View Full Version : AIWB P365X for USPSA carry optics/open
P365 with XL Razorback grip module
Holosun 507k
TREX arms AIWB sidecar holster
Promag 20 round extended magazines.
What could go wrong? :D
HeavyDuty
06-14-2021, 06:23 PM
P365 with XL Razorback grip module
Holosun 507k
TREX arms AIWB sidecar holster
Promag 20 round extended magazines.
What could go wrong? :D
Your new rig?
https://youtu.be/1IVlhKkOs48
That video was with the standard XL grip module.
YVK and GJM both rave about the Razorback and if it helps with recoil control I feel like I could do a reasonable job with that setup as long as the ProMags drop free and are <140mm.
P365 with XL Razorback grip module
Holosun 507k
TREX arms AIWB sidecar holster
Promag 20 round extended magazines.
What could go wrong? :D
Just get a gray guns comp and go mini Roland special in open.
Just get a gray guns comp and go mini Roland special in open.
If I thought the 32 round ProMag was 170mm I would do that for the hilarity factor.
What could go wrong? :D
Not making 125 pf outta that little thing?
Lemme know when you gonna do Single Stack with your EDC. That I might watch.
Caballoflaco
06-14-2021, 10:18 PM
I think “ProMag” is going to be your limiting factor here. Post up a video when you get frustrated and shoot them into little pieces.
Not making 125 pf outta that little thing?
Lemme know when you gonna do Single Stack with your EDC. That I might watch.
AFAIK, I don’t have to make 125PF as long as I use certified ammo right?
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My EDC has a red dot and isn’t a single stack! C’mon man, this is 2021! :D
My EDC is the P365X which is why I was looking to do a match here or there with it.
Crusader8207
06-15-2021, 09:33 AM
Just get a gray guns comp and go mini Roland special in open.
Like this ;)
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My EDC has a red dot and isn’t a single stack!
My EDC is the P365X
Your EDC has a dot and your EDC is the 365X but the 365X is not your EDC and you don't EDC your EDC which is not a single stack but you can't shoot it in CO. Got it.
:D
I've heard that WC is actually renaming the EDC. I wonder why...
Sure, why not, go for it, it'll be fun.
My EDC is 43X but after I shot 6 As and 2 Ms on these four targets past weekend I think I feel appropriately challenged as is :)
https://youtu.be/o7MBMxBlBpc
Your EDC has a dot and your EDC is the 365X but the 365X is not your EDC and you don't EDC your EDC which is not a single stack but you can't shoot it in CO. Got it.
:D
I've heard that WC is actually renaming the EDC. I wonder why...
Sure, why not, go for it, it'll be fun.
My EDC is 43X but after I shot 6 As and 2 Ms on these four targets past weekend I think I feel appropriately challenged as is :)
https://youtu.be/o7MBMxBlBpc
That is a super cool range setup!
I don't get the Razorback grip module, but to each their own.
I don't get the Razorback grip module, but to each their own.
I expect to be disappointed, but YVK and GJM swear by them.
I want to do some recoil and objective testing to see how much improvement there is in recoil management.
If it helps on the order of a compensator, it might be worth it.
Jamesa
06-15-2021, 06:07 PM
I'm old and slow and certainly not in the league of most of you guys but I do shoot a lot. I have over 8,000 rounds through two different XL's. Many of those rounds were in matches and I finally quit the gun due to my inability to shoot accurate followup shots. My thinking was the grip was too small for me to control.
I heard about the Razorback and decided to try it. It wasn't all that impressive opening the box and "feeling" the grip but once I shot it in a match, I'M SOLD! At this point I'd have to say it is the second biggest equipment improvement I've ever made. RDS being first, nothing else comes close. Your results may vary.
I don't get the Razorback grip module, but to each their own.
I admit I never had one on a micro. I have shot a rental P365 numerous times and always found grip too short front to back. I thought of Razorback as an option to increase that dimension and mentioned it to Ben at Boresight over a year ago1. I never went through with the P365 but I guess he thought that the idea was sound to offer it.
Both of my G19s have it though. It creates a backstrap shape close to that one of CZ that I do 90%+ of my shooting with. Brings index of them two closer so I don't get killed on the streets fishing for a dot.
tlong17
06-16-2021, 07:31 PM
Many think it’s dumb or pointless until they actually run it hard. Then Ben collects another $250-$500.
Many think it’s dumb or pointless until they actually run it hard. Then Ben collects another $250-$500.
Mine should get here just in time for a Father's Day range outing!
Many think it’s dumb or pointless until they actually run it hard. Then Ben collects another $250-$500.
There are a lot of things I don't know. The whole reason I have switched to carrying my 365XL away from my stable of Glocks is because I took a loving to a Walther Q5 SF. Well now my Glocks feel like a 2X4 and don't point like they used to. However the little Sig points in my hand very similar to the Walther. I am concerned the Razorback would change this.
tlong17
06-16-2021, 09:17 PM
There are a lot of things I don't know. The whole reason I have switched to carrying my 365XL away from my stable of Glocks is because I took a loving to a Walther Q5 SF. Well now my Glocks feel like a 2X4 and don't point like they used to. However the little Sig points in my hand very similar to the Walther. I am concerned the Razorback would change this.
That’s certainly understandable. And they’re not cheap. Although not hard to resell at a slight loss.
Looks like the Pmags do drop free with a little cleaning and waxing.
They won’t be CO legal coming in around 150mm.
So it’s going to be “Open” if I use it at a match.
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Also, this came early…
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Did a few Bill drills with and without the Razorback frame.
Hard to say.
I like the feel but it does change the index.
It did not seem to improve split times or accuracy significantly.
I might test a little more but right now seems fairly subjective and minor.
People with meat hands might benefit more than me from this modification.
P365 with XL Razorback grip module
Holosun 507k
TREX arms AIWB sidecar holster
Promag 20 round extended magazines.
What could go wrong? :D
By chance earlier today, I shot the Legion, followed by an X Compact, followed by a 365XL. My impression, not surprisingly was the Legion was the easiest gun to shoot, then the X Compact, then the 365XL.
Running a 365XL will get lots of attention on the internet, probably much less attention from other USPSA competitors, and generally give you less match performance for any given amount of skill than a full size pistol. Enough difference to matter defensively, probably not as skill trumps hardware, but certainly some difference. You probably knew all that already!
Hahahahahahaha
Cough cough
Bwahahahahahaha
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Hahaha. So dumb.
But I have to entertain myself somehow!
cheby
06-18-2021, 10:27 PM
Hahahahahahaha
Cough cough
Bwahahahahahaha
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Hahaha. So dumb.
But I have to entertain myself somehow!
Missing a flashlight to make it really dumb
HeavyDuty
06-19-2021, 07:09 AM
Missing a flashlight to make it really dumb
Flashlight with laser, please.
Not making 125 pf outta that little thing?
I actually looked back at my LabRadar data and with Speer Lawman 124gr, it makes 125pf out of a P365XL barrel (so probably would make it out of the threaded barrel).
By chance earlier today, I shot the Legion, followed by an X Compact, followed by a 365XL. My impression, not surprisingly was the Legion was the easiest gun to shoot, then the X Compact, then the 365XL.
Running a 365XL will get lots of attention on the internet, probably much less attention from other USPSA competitors, and generally give you less match performance for any given amount of skill than a full size pistol. Enough difference to matter defensively, probably not as skill trumps hardware, but certainly some difference. You probably knew all that already!
I agree. A couple years ago I had an online discussion on a different forum about carrying a gun I don't shoot the best being a little unnerving. I ran a couple of hit factor drills back to back with my CO shadow versus an MR920 with DPP versus my carry gun and predictably it wound up in that order.
https://www.glocktalk.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=192 0,fit=scale-down/https://www.glocktalk.com/attachments/3c0d3d86-ad9f-4301-b003-807fc83b08a7-jpeg.763486/
It'd just be something for a little more experience under pressure with my carry gun for goofing around at local matches sometimes. One of the clubs allows multiple division entries and it might be fun to run my carry gun against my competition gun sometime. Plus, would be fun to run with the Tactical Timmies apples to apples!
https://youtu.be/ysLLBd1blJw
Ran with my normal frame P365X setup and felt good about it.
Lots of fun adding complexity. GJM YVK
Good shooting. So, the Razorback isn't worth the juice for ya?
I like the setup. Taran's range has got nothing on yours.
https://youtu.be/ysLLBd1blJw
Ran with my normal frame P365X setup and felt good about it.
Lots of fun adding complexity. GJM YVK
How do you check for snakes?
Good shooting. So, the Razorback isn't worth the juice for ya?
I like the setup. Taran's range has got nothing on yours.
Thanks! When COVID started and they closed all the ranges I bought 20 acres and started putting steel targets out there. It’s not as convenient as the local ranges, but for some field course stuff it’s nice to not have to set up and tear down.
The Razorback hump feels like a hotspot on where my hand supports it. I’m still trying to work out where it has advantages for me. I think there are some situations where it’s better, but I haven’t quite figured it out yet.
Taran’s range seems to have more yoga pants, though.
How do you check for snakes?
They tend to get stuck on the duct tape I use on the tarp barriers!
When COVID started and they closed all the ranges I bought 20 acres and started putting steel targets...
..Taran’s range seems to have more yoga pants, though.
Awesome.
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P365X USPSA Open class…
Time to chrono with Lawman and see if I make power factor!
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P365X USPSA Open class…
Do you think God stays in heaven because he, too, lives in fear of what he's created?
HeavyDuty
06-23-2021, 08:34 AM
What quality optics will direct mount to a P365 series cut? Or are we stuck with adapters for now unless you use a Romeo 1 or a Shield? I haven’t been keeping up, I used a Swampfox Sentinel on my G43x, but I really do expect to see RDS developments because Glock chose the Shield pattern for the slimlines.
What quality optics will direct mount to a P365 series cut? Or are we stuck with adapters for now unless you use a Romeo 1 or a Shield? I haven’t been keeping up, I used a Swampfox Sentinel on my G43x, but I really do expect to see RDS developments because Glock chose the Shield pattern for the slimlines.
I think the P365 series is outselling the slimline Glocks.
Romeo 1 is a different sight.
Right now the Jpoint footprint fits an RMSc, Romeo Zero, Holosun 407/507k, I think some sort of Hex (whatever the Hellcat comes with) and I haven’t followed with the Swampfox line.
I think impact resistance wise the 407/507k is best.
But the auto light adjust of the RMSc still has my vote for a carry gun.
HeavyDuty
06-23-2021, 10:29 AM
I think the P365 series is outselling the slimline Glocks.
Romeo 1 is a different sight.
Right now the Jpoint footprint fits an RMSc, Romeo Zero, Holosun 407/507k, I think some sort of Hex (whatever the Hellcat comes with) and I haven’t followed with the Swampfox line.
I think impact resistance wise the 407/507k is best.
But the auto light adjust of the RMSc still has my vote for a carry gun.
Typo, I meant Romeo Zero. I’m hoping we get first tier options before too long.
Typo, I meant Romeo Zero. I’m hoping we get first tier options before too long.
I think you probably have to define first tier.
For a non-combat handgun, I’m totally comfortable with the RMSc especially with BUIS.
HeavyDuty
06-23-2021, 11:25 AM
I think you probably have to define first tier.
For a non-combat handgun, I’m totally comfortable with the RMSc especially with BUIS.
I think I would be too, especially with the glass lens option. My main complaint with Shield is that they have zero US support presence the last I looked. I don’t want to have to rely on UK based support, that knocks them down in my eyes. I was hoping Glock’s new collaboration with Shield would change things, but I haven’t seen anything yet.
I am liking the Razorback a little more.
YVK
I definitely like the comp though. Dot tracking is easier with a noticeably slower slide velocity and it doesn’t slam as hard making it a little easier to stay neutral.
This was 7 yards.
https://youtu.be/5T5E5bVSADA
The ProMags drop free and seem decent so far. Didn’t lock back for me on empty but I try to not run dry anyway.
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Ordered some more 20 round and some 32 round magazines with the thought of cutting down the 32 round ones to 170mm and see if I can make a 25 round magazine.
I do think it needs a magwell and as soon as they come out with a Wilson combat Empire magwell, I’m running that.
98z28
02-08-2022, 09:01 AM
Do you think God stays in heaven because he, too, lives in fear of what he's created?
[emoji1787]
This experiment kicks my giggle box. I’m loving it. Thank you JCN.
I know people hate on ProMags but the outer dimensions and followers are extremely similar to the stock magazines.
The other thing for me personally is that I have a bajillion reps with CZ75 140mm mags so the 20 rounders feel so familiar in my hands.
Check this out. It turns out dimensionally they are almost identical in the places you touch and load.
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So I think for that reason, if I’m going to game with a P365 I think I’m going to prefer the 20 rounders for reloading.
I ordered some more and have also ordered some 32 rounders to cut down to open length and see how many rounds I can get to work.
When I get my new 20 rounders and CarlK ships me his, I’ll go through some mag troubleshooting and tuning concepts with them on this thread.
Carl was having issues with 147 HST that might not occur with round nose or even coated flat nose, so we will try working through those issues.
I partially bought more so I can experiment with mine before damaging his.
LittleLebowski
02-08-2022, 09:38 AM
Oh my god, I think he’s still using that piece of shit holster. We should take up donations to buy him something better :D
Joking, if it works for you…
As a point of reference, the 20 round magazines are 146mm without the basepad so can’t be used in CO without modifying the mag body that would reduce capacity.
83983
If you had to get CO legal mags you could probably cut the mag down and get 19.
That seems like a lot of work over the factory 15s.
When I cut down the 32 rounders you could apply that to the 20s in theory so hopefully that helps for the people who want to do that.
People may ask “what’s the point?” But even having a gaming close cousin of my carry gun will help index and other platform similar things.
Plus it’s fun. So I think most of the experimentation will be around an Open minor build because I still have some ego regarding my pistol shooting and I would love to be able to hang with my CO buddies using a semi carry gun even if it’s technically an Open gun. We all look at overall anyway.
Oh my god, I think he’s still using that piece of shit holster. We should take up donations to buy him something better :D
Joking, if it works for you…
Hehe. Were you talking about my holster because it’s a sidecar or because it’s appendix?
83984
It’s ~$150 holster from T.Rex Arms.
Some things regarding equipment:
1. Very few places have TLR7 holsters.
2. T.Rex has them in stock and quick ship so from order placed to in my hands under a week.
3. I require double clip wide attachments for stability and lateral torque resistance. The wider the clip spacing, the more stable it is under aggressive draws. You want the gun to be where it is, every single time.
4. Sidecar holsters are the bomb for the critical first reload because it’s always in a consistent place relative to the gun. And it doesn’t rotate. So single mag pouches have tilt slop which makes it hard to be efficient and accurate.
5. Not unique to this holster but it has separate retention for the gun and mag. Plus two points of retention that can be adjusted instead of a single point. That matters when you talk about draws and reloads.
The upper and lower retention points change the way the item “releases.” By going tighter on the lower and looser in the upper, it won’t shake or fall loose but with the initial slap it’ll then give and release easier on just a few mm of removal instead of continuing to drag all the way out of the holster / pouch.
83985
I just got the double mag pouch in.
Orpaz for $27 shipped and was very pleasantly surprised.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/174764279301?hash=item28b0c34605:g:-nUAAOSwkhBgmW1n
Cant adjustable and retention adjustable.
Wide base double pouch so they don’t wobble.
I won’t do single standalone pouches due to the wobble and tilt factor.
This is the Open USPSA setup for now.
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When Empire makes a WC magwell, I’ll switch back.
1. P365 slide
2. ISMI recoil spring assembly with coils cut and end cap removed to be an uncaptured setup.
3. Armory Craft steel comp
4. True threaded barrel (makes minor PF with Lawman).
5. Boresight XL grip (I like the WC better)
6. Empire katana magwell
7. Vurwaapen extended mag release button
8. Maple leaf RMSc cut slide with RMR adapter
9. Trijicon SRO (2.5MOA but I prefer 5MOA), might switch to RMSX when they replace the defective units.
10. Promag 20 round magazines with powdercoated wheel weights to help drop free and balance.
11. T.Rex arms P365XL sidecar holster (for XL slides to fit compensator)
12. Orpaz double mag pouch (cant adjustable).
13. TLR-7
Went to the range to test what the comfortable resonant recoil management frequency of the gun at 7 yard alphas was.
https://youtu.be/S8t_tpuUUAw
Seems like an easy 0.15 splits. It’s very comfortable.
What I mean by that is: how fast does the gun return to battery and can I trigger based on vision at that pace.
Some very fast guns return in 0.12 but are hard to time it on the “first bounce” so accurate splits are often 0.24 or more.
In this case, the gun returns in 0.15 and I’m able to trigger coordinate at that pace.
If you watch the slo mo you can see the next shot break as the gun returns. No double or triple oscillation before re-triggering.
CarlK
Is this the kind of jam you were experiencing?
I worked on some tuning solutions.
Have to torture test it a little bit to see if it holds up.
https://youtu.be/7Lb-E97UYfM
CarlK
02-09-2022, 12:01 AM
CarlK
Is this the kind of jam you were experiencing?
I worked on some tuning solutions.
Have to torture test it a little bit to see if it holds up.
https://youtu.be/7Lb-E97UYfM
Yes, that’s the jam experienced in all four of the ProMags
Yes, that’s the jam experienced in all four of the ProMags
I think flat nose bullets are more susceptible for obvious reasons so that’s what I used to recreate the issue when you told me it was HST sensitive.
Once I confirm function / assess reliability and tweak a few more mags I’ll get a sense of which tuning techniques were necessary.
For this mag I used a number of complementary tuning techniques once I discovered what the issue was.
Yes, that’s the jam experienced in all four of the ProMags
I think most people can acknowledge that regardless of what they think of my bluntness or lack of tact, I solve problems usually pretty effectively.
And in general, the philosophy of problem solving is that you can push or you can pull or you can do both.
What I mean by that is there usually isn’t just a single, simplistic solution. There are two things (or more) contributing and you can improve margin and reserve by adjusting or modifying either parameter.
Just like comps and recoil springs. You can adjust the ammo, the comp size, the spring weight or all of the above.
For my competition MPX, I wouldn’t have to change springs if I were content with using higher power ammo but it’s a game that I want to master so I fix the ammo as the constant to reduce degrees of freedom and I try to work the other variables to give me back the margin.
Same thing here.
I could tell you to use pointy round nose bullets only and keep your feed ramp polished and slippery and that could put a band aid on the issue without tuning the magazine. But that doesn’t give you margin back.
With a reliable factory 15 rounder, there’s a template at least for reliability so I have something to compare dimensions and functions to as a gold standard which also helps.
I did a lot to that tuned mag yesterday and will run it at the range with flat nose bullets to see if I can get reliability. If it’s very reliable, I’ll do less to the next mag and see if I hit the critical parts of improvement.
I’m leaving the gun dirty and feed ramp dirty to test margin because the factory mags run fine with a dirty feed ramp.
CarlK
02-09-2022, 10:02 AM
JCN, thanks for all of your time and expertise on this problem. The head-scratcher with the ProMags is that they nose-down with three different types of 115-124 gr FMJ ammo at the same failure rate as the HST and RA9T ammo. I’m sending four mags off to you today for your tinkering.
JCN, thanks for all of your time and expertise on this problem. The head-scratcher with the ProMags is that they nose-down with three different types of 115-124 gr FMJ ammo at the same failure rate as the HST and RA9T ammo. I’m sending four mags off to you today for your tinkering.
I’ll talk about what I’ve done so far. Not sure that it’s all necessary yet but I’ll walk through the thought process in case people are interested.
Nose diving bullets is common on the Czechmate big sticks, mainly due to the control rib and neck area being too loose where it condenses from double to single stack.
There is binding there so there isn’t enough support from below to keep bullets tipped up.
So I thought that’s where this was going.
But the dimensions of the ProMag calipered out to be very similar to the OEM mag so I wasn’t that convinced.
Then I took apart and looked at followers. The ProMag front of the follower is more angled and could “fall down” more easily so I tried swapping followers and that definitely helped.
But that’s not a solution unless I absolutely have to do that.
So I swapped back, knowing I have that in my back pocket in case I need more reliability that I can’t get otherwise.
I settled on massaging the geometry of the upper contact surfaces so we shall see.
Minor grinding was involved.
Additional thoughts. CarlK
If this first mag runs very well with “the full Monty” then I’ll know that I have a solution and will work on just different parts of the solution with each of the new mags I ordered before working on yours.
If I can’t get it reliable with standard tuning then I might get creative with the follower and start epoxy molding a front ledge so the angle matches the OEM mag better since I know the OEM follower works better when I swapped them for proof of concept testing.
Welp. Tuned mag did better but still not the reliability I would like.
So modification.
Front lip ramp.
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Stretched and angled the top small coils to help upward pressure on the follower.
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EDIT: hand cycled and much better.
But I do think I need to clean my feed ramp and maybe polish it for further reliability.
Interestingly Sig has changed the feed ramp geometry so this might be a known issue that could use extra margin.
I could go farther on the mag body but I think the issue is mainly in the spring and follower.
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Left to right 9mm TSO, 9mm CZ75B and Promag springs and followers.
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Factory 9mm TSO springs mocked up to the ProMag follower. Note how they are basically designed to help keep upward tension on the nose?
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Drill press hole
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Voila!
I checked by hand cycling and MUCH more positive upward engagement.
Next test will be live fire and if that works then trial of this spring in an otherwise stock ProMag.
I can just imagine grumpy people saying “what a pain in the ass! I would never fuck with all that stuff!”
But I enjoy figuring stuff out. It’s fun for me.
Especially in the case where there is no good alternative.
It’s also the reason I post. So people can just cut to the chase and work the solution rather than have to do the problem solving if that’s not their cuppa.
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I did a second magazine. Took literally two minutes.
Auto punch follower, drill press, swap spring. Done.
Will test them both tomorrow but I think this is going to be a solution with a lot of extra margin.
First things would be to test the CZ springs.
But maybe if that works there’s a stock solution….
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Left is a CZ spring, middle is ProMag spring that I bent a loop and right is a stock spring.
CZ obviously engineered the loop and it seems to help.
What if I drilled a hole in a ProMag follower and bent a loop into the stock spring?
Would that work as a solution that used all factory included parts?
Will see… that’s a better solution for the average Joe.
EDIT: I just ordered some metal forming pliers that I think I can use to make loops and to bend tabs when I cut the 32 round magazines down so that it’ll still work with the base pads.
If nobody cares, I probably won’t engineer the ProMag spring solution.
If the CZ solution works, I have a shit ton extra.
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Enough to give CarlK four for his mags.
If it works. :D
It does look like the Grams TSO spring might work if people are looking to purchase that.
Other potential options for people without CZ springs might include:
https://lakelinellc.com/shop/new-spring-and-metal-follower-that-fit-the-p365-12-round-magazine-in-standard-strength/
https://www.ndzperformance.com/ISMI-Plus-5-12-Round-Magazine-Spring-for-Sig-P365-p/ismi-ms-p365-12rd.htm
I’m feeling bold. It’s been educational working with these mags.
If I’m really going to run in Open class but really trying to compete with CO, I would like at least the 23 round CO capacity.
So I think I’m going to try and make at least one 170mm mag for those stages where you’d really like 23 rounds (or more) on tap.
I think I might be able to get 25 in a 170 ProMag.
With regard to my personality, I wanted my daughter to learn problem solving and commitment / hard work.
When she was three years old, the teachers at day care asked the kids questions about their dads.
I was so gratified that this is what she said.
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“Practice” in this case is dry fire. I don’t refer to it as guns or what have you, it’s just “practice” and we expanded that concept to practicing anything you want to get better at.
Also that she identified that I was great at fixing things (and I always include her in how I fix and have her help).
We have enough money that we could throw it away and buy another, but I’m not a pissy bitch and don’t want her to be in a “disposable culture” mindset.
https://youtu.be/MLxOAX3z-RY
CarlK
This was with the modified mag body and the CZ spring.
I tried it with an unmodified mag body and it still had some occasional choking.
I think a different follower would prevent having to minor grind the mag body.
If you’re okay with it, I think I’ll do CZ spring and a little grinding as “a solution” knowing that it’s not the only solution.
I’m still thinking that the ProMag really needs a better follower.
This review has me thinking of the Premium follower for gaming reliability.
https://www.sigtalk.com/threads/lakeline-p365-followers-2-000-round-review.340186/
I ordered 6 of the premium followers and 6 of their +10% springs.
I want to see if there’s a drop in solution for the ProMag 20.
There are gaming mags that are $60-100 so a $30 ProMag body plus $30 in springs and followers wouldn’t be out of line with typical gaming mags (which often use aftermarket springs and followers for competition anyway).
I don’t mind tuning, but if there’s a drop in solution with margin that might be better.
I’ll also try trimming a CZ follower too (but that’s more work and if it’s not necessary then maybe not).
So I had a mag that worked but I still wasn’t happy. It didn’t seem like it had enough reserve without doing additional mag body tuning because of underdesigned follower. So I didn’t like how much effort it took to compensate for a crappy follower.
Persistence is one of my qualities.
So I went one step further and…
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Cut down a Shadow 2 follower and used a Shadow 2 spring in an otherwise stock mag body.
Just Dremel narrowed the sides by the nose a whiff and it fits perfectly and cycles like a dream.
Fits 21 rounds AND LOCKS BACK.
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“But JCN? Where can I get Shadow 2 springs and followers?!”
Hundreds of these are lying around from USPSA Carry Optics shooters who usually go to aftermarket springs and followers to get more gaming capacity.
So there will be plenty of these lying around. I’ll function test tomorrow, but I’m very confident this will work without any mag body torturing.
CarlK
02-10-2022, 10:48 PM
This is some great problem solving JCN! You have permission to do whatever you want with my mags. Thanks!
joshs
I made an error, I wasn’t measuring mags correctly.
84116
So the 20 round magazines ALMOST fit. If you shaved the base pad you might be able to make it.
84117
The Shadow follower and spring work great with positive dropping of mag and good lock back on empty.
One single mid mag jam on the lip with the flattest of flat nose ammo, but I want reliability.
Mag body so far is untouched, will do a little front lip shave and I think that’ll take it to 100%.m
EDIT: shaped front lip as a ramp.
84134
84135
84322
32 round mags and metal forming pliers arrived.
This is the length I’m going to cut them down to.
84323
The left sided mag can fit 21 rounds.
I would estimate that the 170mm Open mag would fit 25+ rounds.
Should be good enough to get on equal stage planning footing with CO.
First step is bending the tabs to see how much I should allow for cutting new ones.
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After trying to bend the tabs straight on the bottom of the factory mag, it’s too stiff and small to work even with pliers.
So decided to use physics.
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Cut long tabs to help lengthen torque arms and ability to make a 90 degree bend at the top lip.
84354
Used a flat punch to make the 90s
84355
Cut away some of the excess and left things long
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Last step will be to trim surfaces.
Experiments will include whether the 32 round magazine and follower makes 20 round mags work better.
And whether the Lakeline follower and mags help reliability.
I’m getting 24 rounds with the stock 32 round spring. I could fit more if I cut the spring, but I want reliability and really only looking to get 23-24 rounds to match CO.
84369
Going to go test if it works, but if it does then maybe that’s part of the solution for the stock mags.
More spring tension to overcome the nose dove.
If not, than Lakeline follower experiment.
https://youtu.be/eEUnpTkL40M
CarlK
So the 24 round magazine has a very stiff spring since it’s using the 32 round spring in a shortened body.
Works well even with metal flat nose (frangible sparks).
But…
Still nose dive chokes with polymer flat nose…
Which brings me to the conclusion that there’s just too much friction drag with the polymer noses and no amount of spring pressure will correct that.
So Carl, if you’re okay with it I’m just going to say that these mags are essentially incompatible with polymer flat nose.
If you really wanted to run flat nose polymer I’d recommend lubing them with a little silicone spray on the noses.
I think I have a good handle on the function otherwise. The 20 rounders are essentially under sprung.
Should be GTG with the Shadow springs if you don’t have draggy nose ammo.
CarlK
02-14-2022, 07:36 PM
Thanks for doing all that work. Just a quick clarification- I never used polymer flat-nosed ammo. It was solely 124 and 115 gr ball ammo. It wouldn’t function with ball ammo so I didn’t even try with my preferred carry rounds - Winchester Ranger 147 gr or Federal HST 147 gr. (Both of these rounds are standard, jacketed hollow points.)
Thanks for doing all that work. Just a quick clarification- I never used polymer flat-nosed ammo. It was solely 124 and 115 gr ball ammo. It wouldn’t function with ball ammo so I didn’t even try with my preferred carry rounds - Winchester Ranger 147 gr or Federal HST 147 gr. (Both of these rounds are standard, jacketed hollow points.)
Okay good! What slide are you using (XL or regular) and RDS or no. I want to check your mags with the kind of slide and ammo you use.
CarlK
02-14-2022, 11:13 PM
Okay good! What slide are you using (XL or regular) and RDS or no. I want to check your mags with the kind of slide and ammo you use.
Octane Z365 slide (basically a 365X slide) with 507K.
Octane Z365 slide (basically a 365X slide) with 507K.
84426
Followers cut, mag lips notched and mini feed ramp made x 4.
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Cleaned mag bodies (especially internal towards nose) and sprayed Teflon lube in mag bodies, on followers and springs.
Reassembled and done with 4 mags.
Will hand cycle ball ammo and send them back.
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CarlK
I labeled the basepads 1-4.
4 may not lock back faithfully but I think the others will.
Should work with ball ammo.
If any issues, please let me know.
https://youtu.be/ulHkVujl9bI
CarlK
02-15-2022, 04:23 PM
Fantastic work my friend! Thank you.
CarlK
I labeled the basepads 1-4.
4 may not lock back faithfully but I think the others will.
Should work with ball ammo.
If any issues, please let me know.
https://youtu.be/ulHkVujl9bI
Fantastic work my friend! Thank you.
I get the sense that these mags may benefit from the “tap” on the table like AR mags so the rears seat to the rear of the mag and the noses don’t drag on the mag bodies if that makes sense.
So if you have any issues, you might adopt that too.
I usually have 4 or 5 projects in different stages of progress.
Sometimes there be something that jump starts the project again.
In this case, the Empire brass magwell for the Wilson Combat grip module is available for pre-order.
Supposedly available April 1st.
So I ordered some supporting parts to make a compensated XL.
I didn’t entertain the thought previously because it would make the gun very nose heavy.
However, with a 23 round magazine, tungsten rods in the WC and a brass magwell it could balance okay… theoretically.
I might use the XL slide I cut up as a lighter slide with the compensator for function with the factory RSA.
Ordered the armory craft comp and a True barrel…
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https://youtu.be/sBSMkN9e3gM
Super soft.
Works well with 115 gr Syntech.
But recoil spring is just a whiff heavy for mild loads.
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I haven’t found aftermarket XL springs so going to cut one or two coils off the factory one.
Used a trick from racing days with a zip tie.
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Two coils cut.
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Should add back some margin.
And the untouched spring is too strong for the ammo. The slide doesn’t open and dwell. It pinches the ejecting round.
Makes me think I should cut more off the spring than two coils.
https://youtu.be/WVT7sXJEUhU
Oh No!
04-18-2022, 05:46 AM
Hey man, this insane experiment of a thread finally got me to register for the site. I too tried to run a 365XL in CO for a good minute and ran into some of the problems that you experienced.
Now, I never used the 32 round mags, but I got good reliability from the 20 rounders by keeping them clean (just like you’ve been doing) and by using the OEM Sig 365 followers. I tried the Lakeline followers but those seemed to have too much drag and would get hung up on the last 10 rounds. Using the OEM followers improved feeding by a big margin
As well, the DPM recoil system with the lightest spring was the only thing I could find that allowed the slide to dwell at the back long enough to feed rounds reliably. If your coil-cutting experiment doesn’t work, then that might be something to look at.
Anyway, I appreciate your mad scientist approach to this problem! Best of luck
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