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ford.304
07-22-2012, 05:54 AM
I've read news stories about the people who successfully stopped or impeded a mass shooting - the people who tackled the Tucson shooter while he was reloading, or the off duty cop who shot the attempted mass murderer at his church. And I've read what feels like a million interviews with people who ran for their lives, or hid under their desk while the killer walked around executing everyone else.

I can think of almost no stories about the people who found the courage to fight, but simply couldn't overcome the odds against them of a prepared and armed killer. Are there just that few? Or do they not get mentioned in the news? Somehow it would make me feel better about people to know that at least one of the victims was shot mid-charge instead of the back of the head. From a practical standpoint, it might give better information about just how long your odds are in this sort of confrontation.

What examples do people know of?

ACP230
07-22-2012, 06:21 AM
There was an incident at a courthouse in Texas. Nutjob going after his estranged wife and the cops who responded at the courthouse. A guy who lived across the street came out of his apartment and took on the perp. He had a .45 ACP, IIRC.

The perp was wearing body armor and, although the guy scored hits, they didn't take the perp down. He was shot and killed by the perp who was using a rifle.

The perp was eventually killed, some miles off, by a cop with a rifle.

Can't recall the town, or names of those involved. I think Mas Ayoob wrote about it in American Handgunner.

cdunn
07-22-2012, 07:40 AM
There was an incident at a courthouse in Texas. Nutjob going after his estranged wife and the cops who responded at the courthouse. A guy who lived across the street came out of his apartment and took on the perp. He had a .45 ACP, IIRC.

The perp was wearing body armor and, although the guy scored hits, they didn't take the perp down. He was shot and killed by the perp who was using a rifle.

The perp was eventually killed, some miles off, by a cop with a rifle.

Can't recall the town, or names of those involved. I think Mas Ayoob wrote about it in American Handgunner.

Mark Wilson, Tyler Courthouse shootout,Mark Wilson was an idpa, type shooter,(game shooter) who tried to save people at the court house shootout,he shot the shooter who was wearing armor and was then shot afterwardsi'm sure someone can correct me if wrong,this shooting was covered in a FPF training class in pretty good detail,we later performed the Wilson drill(el pres.)

41magfan
07-22-2012, 07:51 AM
Incidents of people acting on any instinct or compulsion to defend themselves (or others) isn't generally covered with much fanfare by the MSM. It doesn't fit in their agenda or strengthen their position that we should all just be sheep and just go with the flow.

Afterall, it's ALWAYS best to be compliant and for heaven's sake do not resort to relying on a gun. You're much more likely to shoot yourself or a family member than successfully defend yourself.

It's true ..... I saw it on TV.

Tamara
07-22-2012, 07:58 AM
What examples do people know of?

Dan McKown at Tacoma Mall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Mall_shooting).

Guy was shooting up the joint with a MAK-90, and Dan threw down on him with his CZ and told him to drop his gun. He turned and lit Dan up pretty good instead.

Joe Mamma
07-22-2012, 08:09 AM
Mark Wilson, Tyler Courthouse shootout,Mark Wilson was an idpa, type shooter,(game shooter) who tried to save people at the court house shootout,he shot the shooter who was wearing armor and was then shot afterwardsi'm sure someone can correct me if wrong,this shooting was covered in a FPF training class in pretty good detail,we later performed the Wilson drill(el pres.)

I think Mark Wilson had a 1911 (45 acp) and hit the bad guy multiple times. But as was mentioned, the bad guy was wearing body armor.

Joe Mamma

Jason F
07-22-2012, 08:24 AM
I read a thread somewhere in the last day or two that mentioned a guy with a wrestling background who attempted to physically counter a shooter somewhere (I believe it was in the NW somewhere) and he ended up taking rounds and dying. I'll see if I can dig up the incident or victim name so we can see more info.

What about Luby's Cafeteria? The handgun locked in the truck of the future state congresswoman could have dramatically changed the outcome of that event. For a bunch of people it may have rendered a different outcome. Perhaps even for her - if she would have engaged, she may have been hit and injured or killed. We'll never know unfortunately.


But yes, these stories are out there. Like Tamara said though, you're not very likely to hear about them in the immediate aftermath, especially from the MSM.


And who's to say any number of incidents where we applaud the actions of an armed individual couldn't have gone south for that person. Even the guy the other day in the Florida Internet Cafe. A slightly more determined perp, a loaded gun is used, a jam of the "defenders" gun giving the bad guy a moment of opportunity..... Any good encounter could easily go bad by 100 small maybes. And any bad incident could possibly have been mitigated or severely hampered by any one or number of 100 small maybes in the other direction. We'll never know, and you just can't rationalize that. It's just the way the cards fall sometimes. As prepared or not as you may be, sometimes the circumstances are too stacked against you (or the perp!), even if they don't know it and we only figure that out in hindsight.

Tamara
07-22-2012, 09:05 AM
And who's to say any number of incidents where we applaud the actions of an armed individual...

That's the problem: AN armed individual.

Firearms, like vaccines, work best from a standpoint of herd immunity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_policy#Immunity_and_herd_immunity). The act of whipping out a firearm in public should be a guarantee of going down in a hail of bullets; choosing a victim for a mugging should involve a virtual certainty that they are armed, rather than a mere 1-in-20 chance. Even in the most gun-friendly of states, the odds of a criminal encountering armed resistance are lower than their chances of them going straight and finding honest work.

S Jenks
07-22-2012, 09:05 AM
Edgewater Technology, Christmas 2000 in Wakefield, Massachusetts. Michael McDermott was a disgruntled employee about to be fired when he decided to use an AK variant, 12-gauge pump and .32 pistol to shoot up Human Resources. The following is from an article by Erich Pratt of Gunowners.org, published in 2008:

"It was the day after Christmas, and people were back to work at Edgewater Technology in Wakefield, Massachusetts.

Sandy Javelle, a widower and father of four children, was visiting with fellow employees. He normally worked out of the New Hampshire office, but today he just happened to be in the Wakefield building.

Unfortunately for Sandy, this was the wrong day to be visiting the Wakefield branch.

In another part of the office, Michael McDermott was joking and chatting with a fellow employee. Cool and relaxed, he seemed to be caught up in a festive mood. It was the day after Christmas, after all.

"I was having a conversation [with McDermott] and suddenly he was not talking with me," said a project manager. "So, I walked away."

Well, McDermott had other things on his mind. Grabbing the black gym bag on his desk, he began his journey to the accounting department -- apparently to "discuss" the wages which the IRS was garnishing from his paychecks.

Nicknamed "Mucko," McDermott is a hulking 42-year old man with shoulder-length hair and a bushy black beard. He looks more like a Civil War veteran than a computer programmer.

The former Navy submariner pulled an AK-47 and a shotgun out of his bag. He also had a pistol tucked inside his waistband.

"Hey," a startled coworker called out from a nearby office, "where are you going with that?"

McDermott just continued walking, undaunted, until he reached the reception area. It was there that he started firing. For the next seven to eight minutes, McDermott methodically shot several victims. He rarely missed.

People began diving behind desks and barricading themselves behind doors. Calmly, McDermott strode towards the accounting department. He switched to his shotgun and sized up a new target.

It was Sandy Javelle.

A victim of gun control

An Army veteran, Sandy had been trained to stare death in the face. He barricaded several coworkers into a room and went out to meet McDermott.

There was no naivete on Sandy's part. As an avid sportsman, he was quite familiar with firearms. He even possessed a concealed carry license from the state of New Hampshire.

There was just one problem. He was now in Massachusetts, a state which does not recognize concealed carry permits from its neighboring state.

Sandy quickly approached McDermott and paused at the copy machine. The meeting between the two men lasted only an instant, as McDermott leveled his shotgun and fired into the face of his unarmed victim.

Sandy became the third casualty that day. Four more would die before the shooting ended."

In all, McDermott killed seven before surrendering to the police. Later found found guilty on all counts and sentenced to life imprisonment. The victim featured above, an Army vet, had gone off to try to stop an active shooter with nothing more than bare hands or perhaps an improvised striking weapon. God bless him.

Ray Keith
07-22-2012, 09:13 AM
Mark Wilson, Tyler Courthouse shootout,Mark Wilson was an idpa, type shooter,(game shooter) who tried to save people at the court house shootout,he shot the shooter who was wearing armor and was then shot afterwardsi'm sure someone can correct me if wrong,this shooting was covered in a FPF training class in pretty good detail,we later performed the Wilson drill(el pres.)

Wilson I believe had a pistol, the shooter had a rifle.

Jason F
07-22-2012, 09:40 AM
That's the problem: AN armed individual.

Firearms, like vaccines, work best from a standpoint of herd immunity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_policy#Immunity_and_herd_immunity). The act of whipping out a firearm in public should be a guarantee of going down in a hail of bullets; choosing a victim for a mugging should involve a virtual certainty that they are armed, rather than a mere 1-in-20 chance. Even in the most gun-friendly of states, the odds of a criminal encountering armed resistance are lower than their chances of them going straight and finding honest work.

A-freaking-men!!!

NETim
07-22-2012, 10:13 AM
Wilson I believe had a pistol, the shooter had a rifle.

IIRC, after shooting the BG with no effect, the good guy went down behind a vehicle to reload, taking his eyes off of the BG. BG came around from behind the vehicle and shot the good guy.

The Texas state legislature awarded the good guy a medal of some kind posthumously, as he did save some lives that day.

TCinVA
07-22-2012, 10:45 AM
At Fort Hood unarmed people tried to stop Hassan an paid with their lives.

Kyle Reese
07-22-2012, 11:11 AM
There are some fates worse than death.

Look at the guy who abandoned his girlfriend and her kids in Aurora. No amount of Dr.Phil psychobabble will convince me he's not a yellow rat, who should spend the rest of his existence in exile somewhere due to the shame of his actions (or inactions).

LHS
07-22-2012, 12:16 PM
I read a thread somewhere in the last day or two that mentioned a guy with a wrestling background who attempted to physically counter a shooter somewhere (I believe it was in the NW somewhere) and he ended up taking rounds and dying. I'll see if I can dig up the incident or victim name so we can see more info.



That wrestler got shot but survived (the BG had a .22 pistol, IIRC). It was in a school, I believe somewhere in the Pacific northwest.

ford.304
07-22-2012, 01:50 PM
And who's to say any number of incidents where we applaud the actions of an armed individual couldn't have gone south for that person. Even the guy the other day in the Florida Internet Cafe. A slightly more determined perp, a loaded gun is used, a jam of the "defenders" gun giving the bad guy a moment of opportunity..... Any good encounter could easily go bad by 100 small maybes. And any bad incident could possibly have been mitigated or severely hampered by any one or number of 100 small maybes in the other direction. We'll never know, and you just can't rationalize that. It's just the way the cards fall sometimes. As prepared or not as you may be, sometimes the circumstances are too stacked against you (or the perp!), even if they don't know it and we only figure that out in hindsight.

Well, and that's the other part of why I asked this question. I *should* know about these people. They're every bit as much heroes as those who succeeded.

Thanks for the answers, everyone.

Savage Hands
07-22-2012, 02:18 PM
There are some fates worse than death.

Look at the guy who abandoned his girlfriend and her kids in Aurora. No amount of Dr.Phil psychobabble will convince me he's not a yellow rat, who should spend the rest of his existence in exile somewhere due to the shame of his actions (or inactions).



+100

Spr1
07-22-2012, 02:56 PM
That wrestler got shot but survived (the BG had a .22 pistol, IIRC). It was in a school, I believe somewhere in the Pacific northwest.

I don't recall reading that he was shot.

Mitchell, Esq.
07-22-2012, 10:51 PM
There are some fates worse than death.

Look at the guy who abandoned his girlfriend and her kids in Aurora. No amount of Dr.Phil psychobabble will convince me he's not a yellow rat, who should spend the rest of his existence in exile somewhere due to the shame of his actions (or inactions).

The sick part is society saying "we understand..."

When cowardly actions are no longer castigated, brave actions are looked on as foolish.

It reminds me of a quote I read:

Let a person not engage in the Creator's commandments like one who acts casually - sometimes performing and sometimes neglecting - rather let him perform them all, always wholeheartedly. And let him not neglect any matter, neither because of laziness, nor because of embarrassment. For example, if one is accustomed to eat three meals on the Sabbath in observance of the mitzvah, and he is a guest of people who are not scrupulous about this commandment, let him not neglect the commandment because of embarrassment. For woe is to such embarrassment! Rather, let him brazenly say, 'Set (bread), for I must eat a morsel as the Creator has commanded.' And so, too, in any similar case. Even if the whole world ridicules him, nevertheless he should be a fool in their eyes, but not transgress even a minor one of the Creator's commandments. Regarding this it is written: For love of it, may you always look foolish. This means that because of the love you feel for a mitzvah, you should act like a foolish and silly person to set aside all your activities and engage in it.

Granted, it's talking about religious observance...but saving someone's life is a positive commandment as well.

ford.304
07-23-2012, 07:03 AM
The sick part is society saying "we understand..."

When cowardly actions are no longer castigated, brave actions are looked on as foolish.


The problem is when "we understand" moves to "we accept."

I understand why someone would act like that. That doesn't change my opinion of them or their actions. Knowing that it's because of their upbringing or natural human impulses or whatever is useful, but only so we can know how not to duplicate the mistake of making adults who fail at being human.

Noleshooter
07-23-2012, 12:13 PM
What is sad is that the newly engaged couple's story is all over the news but this guy is virtually unmentioned...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/jarell-brooks-aurora-hero_n_1690579.html

mc1911
07-24-2012, 08:33 PM
Regarding the OP, a woman named Jeanne Assam made news in Dec 2007 at New Life Church in CO when she took down a guy who was shooting up the place. He shot two girls in the parking lot if I recall correctly and then made his way inside. Jeanne was a former police officer who was serving on a volunteer security team.

The guy came in with an AR and she lit him up with her Beretta 92.

mc1911
07-24-2012, 08:37 PM
On another note, what is it with these clowns armoring up? Do we need to all carry 5.7s? It is pretty scary, actually. Someone referenced the TX shooting where a would-be hero was defeated by body armor. This guy in CO, even if someone had been there to put rounds on him, what difference would it have made? How do you solve it? Make a head shot in a dark movie theater under incoming fire and hundreds of screaming people running around? Good luck.

Kyle Reese
07-24-2012, 09:19 PM
On another note, what is it with these clowns armoring up? Do we need to all carry 5.7s? It is pretty scary, actually. Someone referenced the TX shooting where a would-be hero was defeated by body armor. This guy in CO, even if someone had been there to put rounds on him, what difference would it have made? How do you solve it? Make a head shot in a dark movie theater under incoming fire and hundreds of screaming people running around? Good luck.

Where do you plan on getting SS190 type ammunition in 5.7x28? It's not really available to civilians.

What you can do is assess where you are, as an individual, in terms of training and proficiency. Identify shortcomings in your training / skill set and work to fix it.

Going out and buying a 5.7mm handgun without addressing the shortcomings in our individual training programs is a waste of time.

Tamara
07-25-2012, 05:02 AM
On another note, what is it with these clowns armoring up? Do we need to all carry 5.7s?

The dude wasn't armored up. The media was hysteria'ed up.

Also, no tear gas, just smoke.

Jason F
07-25-2012, 05:39 AM
The dude wasn't armored up. The media was hysteria'ed up.

Also, no tear gas, just smoke.

Thankfully, a Blackhawk tactical vest does not armor make.

But seriously, people are making a big deal out of a $300 bill he got for ordering an "assault vest" and some mag pouches? What, you've never been to a golf shop? You can't blink in a place like that without spending $2-400. Ever been to a nice tailor, or a good shoe place?? Certainly the media has - and they get that, it's "understandable" because it's in their realm of living and comfort. But spending $300 at a gun shop is borderline crazy.

Oh to wish we truly had an objective media who would shut up and stay out the of story, and simply report & read the news.

Tamara
07-25-2012, 06:59 AM
Oh to wish we truly had an objective media who would shut up and stay out the of story, and simply report & read the news.

That's just crazy talk. Any of those journalists would be happy to tell you how much of a centrist they are; why, their views are right in the middle of the road at their Manhattan cocktail parties! ;)

(Truthfully, though, the ideal of a neutral and unbiased media is just a pleasant cultural myth. As far back as the late 19th Century, we had newspaper publishers declaring war on Spain...)

ford.304
07-25-2012, 07:37 AM
(Truthfully, though, the ideal of a neutral and unbiased media is just a pleasant cultural myth. As far back as the late 19th Century, we had newspaper publishers declaring war on Spain...)

The dangerous thing is the degree to which journalists seem to buy into this myth.

I honestly think that most do the best that they can to present things as moderately as they can. Unfortunately, that's "moderate" to someone who grew up in a city with strong gun control, went to a liberal college, and never fired a gun in their life. Their frame of reference is completely screwy.

TCinVA
07-25-2012, 08:03 AM
The dangerous thing is the degree to which journalists seem to buy into this myth.

They're the perpetrators of the myth.

It's the source of their power.



I honestly think that most do the best that they can to present things as moderately as they can. Unfortunately, that's "moderate" to someone who grew up in a city with strong gun control, went to a liberal college, and never fired a gun in their life. Their frame of reference is completely screwy.

Read Robert Caro's latest book on LBJ.

There may be individual reporters who do take all that stuff about journalistic integrity seriously...but the press as an institution is irredeemably corrupt in their motivations and actions.

Sadmin
07-25-2012, 08:49 AM
Wilson I believe had a pistol, the shooter had a rifle.

Tyler resident here; yes bad guy had MAK90. A sad day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting

LHS
07-25-2012, 11:19 AM
The dude wasn't armored up. The media was hysteria'ed up.

Also, no tear gas, just smoke.

Funny, they were all over the body armor and tear gas stuff, but I haven't heard one single peep about retractions of that. From what I've read, he had a cheap Blackchicken 'assault vest' for carrying ammo, and some riot/corrections padding on his limbs. Hardly North Hollywood.

Tamara
07-25-2012, 11:32 AM
Funny, they were all over the body armor and tear gas stuff, but I haven't heard one single peep about retractions of that.

This is my shocked face -> :|

Al T.
07-25-2012, 12:37 PM
Pretty good article here:

http://kitup.military.com/2012/07/regarding-an-armed-citizenry.html#more-19495

From Kit Up!:


Paul Leitner-Wise, a firearms designer and manufacturer (the man who founded LWRC), Leitner-Wise Defense and most recently Leitner-Wise Mfg. LLC wrote an excellent op-ed piece about the value of armed response and the advantages of an armed citizenry.

mc1911
07-25-2012, 04:30 PM
Where do you plan on getting SS190 type ammunition in 5.7x28? It's not really available to civilians.

What you can do is assess where you are, as an individual, in terms of training and proficiency. Identify shortcomings in your training / skill set and work to fix it.

Going out and buying a 5.7mm handgun without addressing the shortcomings in our individual training programs is a waste of time.

Not planning to do that or advocating it. More just venting the frustration of the situation, which turns out to not have been accurate in this case but as we've seen with regards to the TX incident and my understanding of the LA shootout can be a factor.

Bigguy
07-25-2012, 05:00 PM
Missed the word UNSUCCESSFUL in the thread. Trying to delete.

http://www.fox16.com/news/local/story/Pine-Bluff-woman-gunned-down-in-front-of-coworkers/PD4xdSDOK0iUYIUYwcidaw.cspx?rss=315

It's possible she would have only shot one victim, but thank goodness we didn't have to find out. Scuttle butt on another board is that the CCW lost his job at the plant. It was a no carry work zone.

nar472
07-25-2012, 05:03 PM
A little more detail on one that was in an article that AI T. mentioned above

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm