Co-Witnessing a Ruger MKIV 22lr for Red Dot Training

[Bruce in WV]

I'm using my Ruger MKIV Target with an MRDS to get in some live fire practice during the centerfire ammo draught.
I had a Holosun HE507C-GR X2 on a Maddmacs low profile center base (http://maddmacsprecisiontactical.com/) as the starting point. The Ruger factory sights weren't tall enough to balance the dot on the front sight, so I searched the web for replacements. Ruger had a taller set of night sights, but I didn't need the tritium capability. Looking further, I found Kensights (https://stores.kensight.com/), a company in Georgia, with several choices for taller sight for the Rugers.
I bought the black target set (front & rear) after chatting with their customer service about my needs (GREAT customer service, BTW). When they arrived, they were easy to mount in place of the factory sights, and allow me to balance the dot on the front sight just like my G45/RM06 with suppressor sights.
It would work as well, or better, with an RMR on the same Madmaccs base.

https://i.ibb.co/DLQgQ6t/4-A2-E9470-3702-4-A65-A57-A-5-F3-E4-B82002-B.jpg (https://ibb.co/DLQgQ6t)

[APS-PF]

Good job, that worked out well! When I first read the thread title, before clicking in and reading I thought to myself "he's never going to find something that works right."

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Nice to know those exist. I also use and really like the Maddmacs center mount on my 22/45.

One note from reading your OP: if you are consciously lining up the dot with your front sight, or even if you are aware of your front sight when shooting the dot, you are probably doing it wrong, as you should be using a target focus when shooting with a dot.

[Bruce in WV]

Nice to know those exist. I also use and really like the Maddmacs center mount on my 22/45.

One note from reading your OP: if you are consciously lining up the dot with your front sight, or even if you are aware of your front sight when shooting the dot, you are probably doing it wrong, as you should be using a target focus when shooting with a dot.

That's a good, simple way of explaining the use of the red dot.

Putting the dot on top of the front sight is used in setting up the dot and irons.

[Poconnor]

Could you see the original iron sights when looking through the holosun sight? I would not want a pure co witness but seeing the irons in the lower third would work

[Bruce in WV]

The factory irons are too low to see with both the Holosun and the Fastfire 3 that I tried first.

[Bruce in WV]

I finally had an opportunity to get a good used RM06 at a decent price, so I changed the Holosun 507C-GR that was on the MK IV to the RMR. It co-witnesses well; now I have the same sight picture on both carry and training guns.

https://i.ibb.co/37XP8xB/D6405-AA0-B26-F-4-D0-D-9030-B5-CED730-ACE3.jpg

[Bruce in WV]

Got the picture host issue fixed: updated photo.

https://i.ibb.co/mJbnFjw/8-A4865-C9-11-CE-47-B2-8749-F421-A1-E3319-C.jpg (https://ibb.co/VVJFp1Z)

[Wayne Dobbs]

Feel free to light a fire and get ready to burn the witch, but on a recreational gun you don't need back up iron sights. You can make a case that you really don't need them for duty guns either (assuming you use a quality optic), but that's another discussion.

Additionally, the mere fact that the OP is "balancing the dot on the front sight" tells me the optic is not being used correctly. Any iron sights present on a PMO equipped pistol are NO PART of an aiming solution when using the optic. If you're back on the iron sights instead of being target focused during shooting solution development, then your focus/attention is in the wrong place. If you want to run iron sight motor programs to shoot, take the dot off and save time. The training methodology for the PMO is different and is totally built on target/threat focus with no mental energy used on, in or at the optic.

[Jim Watson]

But, but, but... I saw this You Tube Expert explaining that you used the iron sights to "find the dot".

I guess my friend who has gone all dot for all purposes, comp and carry, no BUIS, didn't see that video. He just says that if his battery runs down, he can frame an assailant in the window well enough at moderate range.

[Wayne Dobbs]

But, but, but... I saw this You Tube Expert explaining that you used the iron sights to "find the dot".

I guess my friend who has gone all dot for all purposes, comp and carry, no BUIS, didn't see that video. He just says that if his battery runs down, he can frame an assailant in the window well enough at moderate range.

My executive summary of a close range, no dot working technique is: "fill the screen with asshole and press smoothly"

[awp_101]

Thread drift engage!


My executive summary of a close range, no dot working technique is: "fill the screen with asshole and press smoothly"
Are many (most?) end users/procurement processes fixated on having BUIS because “but fighting pistols have always had iron sights”, are they taking a belt and suspenders approach in case of a black swan event or is something else driving it?

[Wayne Dobbs]

Thread drift engage!


Are many (most?) end users/procurement processes fixated on having BUIS because “but fighting pistols have always had iron sights”, are they taking a belt and suspenders approach in case of a black swan event or is something else driving it?

Lots to discuss here and I don't want to drift things over the cliff. Will start a new thread in the optics section on this.

[Bruce in WV]

That's a good, simple way of explaining the use of the red dot.

Putting the dot on top of the front sight is used in setting up the dot and irons.

Re comment from the Aimpoint Rep:

Question: are you saying this is not a legitimate way to check the alignment of the dot and irons? This thread is "Can it be done?", not "Should it be done?

This not a purely recreational 22LR plinker. It also serves as an inexpensive trainer to supplant 9mm training for red dot equipped duty guns. I'll go to the thread on the optics forum you referenced. Good stuff and opportunity for me to learn more on the topic.

[Stephanie B]

Reminds me that I need to put my Mk.III 22/45 back together. I stripped it after a range session in 3/20 (trigger was malfing) for a deep cleaning. I got called away, so I put it into a bag. Then the pandemic hit and I just put it away.

[Bruce in WV]

Looking through the sights:

https://i.ibb.co/v4T7G3d/4-EE5-ACD6-18-D4-4309-B55-E-FB1-F6-FB1-A384.jpg

[HCM]

Re comment from the Aimpoint Rep:

Question: are you saying this is not a legitimate way to check the alignment of the dot and irons? This thread is "Can it be done?", not "Should it be done?

This not a purely recreational 22LR plinker. It also serves as an inexpensive trainer to supplant 9mm training for red dot equipped duty guns. I'll go to the thread on the optics forum you referenced. Good stuff and opportunity for me to learn more on the topic.

I would say should not be done.

Wayne can speak for himself but as someone With 20 years on red dot carbines in about five years on red dot pistols, including caring both on duty and training others to carry them on duty s little background is in order.

Wayne was 100% right that the irons and the red dot are independent sighting systems which should be used independently. This is true of both pistols and Carbines.

By way of background, early in the GWOT, When conventional forces begin getting red dot optics on Carbines someone figured out that you could speed up zero process for the optic if you put the red dot on the front sight of your already zeroed iron sights. This was intended solely as an administrative / range procedure, IF you are using true co-witness BUIS.

However, we all are aware of how information becomes twisted integrated via the “telephone game.” So a process designed to aid in getting large numbers of weapons zeroed quickly morphed into soldiers and airman being taught garbage like red dot sights are used by putting the red dot on the tip of the front sight.

Similarly, People with red dot sights on Carbines and true co-witness BUIS were taught to check that the dot was on the tip of the front sight to “check zero” as a pre-mission check. Again an administrative procedure, and one that only applies if you are using true co-witness BUIS.

Just like with flashlight techniques, mission and equipment drive techniques. If one is using an optic on a carbine at lower 1/3 to witness height or with the higher mounts now used to allow passive aiming with night vision goggles neither of the administrative procedures involving the dot on the front sight have any application. It’s a parlor trick whose time has passed.

Here’s the issue, whether on a carbine or a pistol the optic is your primary sighting system and the back up iron sights are just that back ups only for use if the primary sighting system fails.

Shooting is a visual activity. With iron sites your eye is accommodating or shifting focus between two or three different siding plains depending on how you’re using the iron sights. An optic is a single focal plane siding system, you look at the target and superimpose the red dot. Doing one thing is always going to be faster and more efficient than doing two or three things.

People who advocate using co-witness irons as training wheels to find the dot do not understand how optics are supposed to be used. I shot iron sights on handguns for nearly 30 years before getting serious about red dots. While I believe back up irons (or some form of secondary sighting system) are a necessity on a duty gun, I found the best tool for learning to use red dots on a pistol was shooting a pistol with no back up irons or at least no irons visible through the optic.

True co-witness irons unnecessarily clutter the optic window and can make use of the optic less efficient. This is why we saw a move to lower 1/3 co-witness BUIS on carbines And why I personally prefer a lower 1/3 to lower 1/4 co-witness on pistol optics, Particularly those with smaller windows like the RMR.

I have a a Ruger mkIII with a Holosun on a mad Mac mount and I’m fine with the irons not being visible. In fact I prefer it.

Regarding secondary sighting systems, irons are still the most practical choice on pistols but on many serious use carbines a laser or a second mini red dot optic have supplanted irons.

[Hideeho]

Feel free to light a fire and get ready to burn the witch, but on a recreational gun you don't need back up iron sights. You can make a case that you really don't need them for duty guns either (assuming you use a quality optic), but that's another discussion.

Additionally, the mere fact that the OP is "balancing the dot on the front sight" tells me the optic is not being used correctly. Any iron sights present on a PMO equipped pistol are NO PART of an aiming solution when using the optic. If you're back on the iron sights instead of being target focused during shooting solution development, then your focus/attention is in the wrong place. If you want to run iron sight motor programs to shoot, take the dot off and save time. The training methodology for the PMO is different and is totally built on target/threat focus with no mental energy used on, in or at the optic.

Could not agree more. I just started working hard on PMO pistols. Age is a bitch, sights are for the young. I have a MKIV with a 5 MOA SRO. I don’t want to see the sights. It means I’m not using the dot properly. I use MKIV range time to train on focusing on the dot. Indexing sights and focusing on dot before taking the shot takes away the advantage of the dot.