Aurora, CO "Dark Knight Rises" shooting - 14 dead, 50+ wounded 7/20/12

[Jason F]

I'm sure there are going to be some interesting lessons to learn from this sad event.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shooting-colorado-movie-theater-14-people-dead/story?id=16817842#.UAlHwDGe64R


And my wife wonders why I'm ALWAYS carrying at when we (rarely) go to the movie theater, AND why my head is on a swivel when anyone comes in to the theater. After that incident a few years back in Beslan (IIRC) where a movie theater was taken hostage for a few days, my radar is always switched on. It's a bad place to be with few exits, LOTS of fatal funnels, and no real cover/barriers for protection.

Very sad evening.... I'm relieved that at least they have the suspect in custody.

[Jason F]

Youngest victim reported as 6 years old.... :(


Which begs the question - What in the HELL is a 6 year old doing at a midnight showing of a movie like Dark Knight Rises?!?! Crazy.....

[CCT125US]

My prayers go out to the victims and the families.

Does anyone know if CCW is permitted at that theater? I find it interesting that there were no reports of anyone defending themselves, unless I missed it. I think of Colorado as a very pro gun state.

[TCinVA]

Christ.

[SteveK]

Please don't refer to this as a "shooting". Call it killing, murder, homicide, whatever. It IS NOT a shooting. Shooting is an activity and sport we all take part in and to confuse it with what happened in Colorado is a disservice to us all. I don't mean to be critical, but we as a collective, responsible group need to differentiate between the two. The Russian movie theater seige was actually in Moscow. Beslan was a school seige that occured in North Ossetia carried out by Chechen terrorists. Al Quaeda had operatives involved as Bin Laden wanted on the job training for future school attacks on America.

[TCinVA]

...and the politicization of this incident has started before they've even cleaned up all the blood.

Human nature is predictable, but it's still bloody depressing.

[SecondsCount]

Tragic. May the victims and their families find peace.

Anyone that uses this as political gain is a shameful coward in my book.

[BaiHu]

...and the politicization of this incident has started before they've even cleaned up all the blood.

Human nature is predictable, but it's still bloody depressing.

Yup, take away the guns, that's the problem-not the maniac psycho who booby-trapped his whole apartment to boot. While we're at it, they need to crack down on the WalMart/Target booby-trap aisle as well.

Unfortunately, as SecondsCount states, everyone will be jumping on the anti-gun bandwagon. Bloomberg is already foaming at the mouth.

I guess we'll find out soon enough whether this guy was truly 'random' or another Jared Loughner.

[BaiHu]

The speculation/retraction game starts:

http://www.nationalreview.com/media/video/310127

[KeeFus]

Sad day. Prayers for all the families. This link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFuNDOQ3b-0&feature=player_embedded#!) was posted on lawofficer.com. It's the radio traffic from this incident. It sounds like utter chaos.

[Mr_White]

Does anyone know if CCW is permitted at that theater?

I had the same question and found this when searching: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/07/robert-farago/cinemark-theaters-no-legal-firearms-allowed/

I've heard of TTAG am not a regular reader of that blog and frankly, am ignorant as to whether it is a quality site or not.

I tried looking at Cinemark's website but could not find any mention of rules or policies.

[Tamara]

The speculation/retraction game starts:

http://www.nationalreview.com/media/video/310127

Jesus.

Is there nothing that is beyond politicization these days? That just disgusts me. People on both ends of the political spectrum, most of whom couldn't spell "Sarajevo" if you spotted them everything up to the "j", are absolutely champing at the bit for a civil war.

[Kyle Reese]

Jesus.

Is there nothing that is beyond politicization these days? That just disgusts me. People on both ends of the political spectrum, most of whom couldn't spell "Sarajevo" if you spotted them everything up to the "j", are absolutely champing at the bit for a civil war.

Having been to that part of the world several times in a previous life, anyone who wishes for a Sarajevo (or CAPAJEBO in Serbian) style conflict is bonkers. They have no idea what they're wishing for.

[DocGKR]

Bad guys and psychos do not respect rules, laws, morals, or any other outside regulation. You can't legislate away evil. This is why the individual right to CCW and be able to protect yourself and your loved ones is critically important.

Keep in mind that in Colorado, it doesn't matter if signs are posted prohibiting CCW on private property (obviously this is not the same as at restricted government locations) as they hold no basis in CO law. If discovered CCW, the worst that can happen to you is getting charged with trespassing if you don't immediately depart if asked to do so by the mangement/owner. The only way to stop law abiding citizens from carrying in CO is to have basically airport security at every entrance. Of course this would not have stopped this incident since the perpetrator reportedly jammed open a locked exit door...

[Tony Muhlenkamp]

Jesus.

Is there nothing that is beyond politicization these days? That just disgusts me. People on both ends of the political spectrum, most of whom couldn't spell "Sarajevo" if you spotted them everything up to the "j", are absolutely champing at the bit for a civil war.

We have no clue just how bad a civil war would be. Just picture a column of tanks rolling down the main drag of Broad Ripple. How is that going to work out for everyone?

[Tony Muhlenkamp]

I'm thinking about what I could/should do if I were there during the attack. Assuming you have a light and a sidearm, now what? Crowded theater, dark, smoke, flashing lights, screams, pushing, shoving, etc. Do you try to get close enough to make a well aimed shot? What about your spouse and kids that are with you? From what we know of the scenario, what do you do?

[TCinVA]

I'm thinking about what I could/should do if I were there during the attack. Assuming you have a light and a sidearm, now what? Crowded theater, dark, smoke, flashing lights, screams, pushing, shoving, etc. Do you try to get close enough to make a well aimed shot? What about your spouse and kids that are with you? From what we know of the scenario, what do you do?

If I was with family my first concern would be placing myself between the danger and my family. To get to them he'd have to get through me first. That will either resolve the problem on his end or, alternately, signal the end of my ability to impact events in this plane of existence. It would be nice to think that I could hustle them out of there before it got really bad but the simple truth is that the mental inertia people experience in events like this is nigh unto impossible to shake them out of in time to make a real difference. If I'm at the back and he's concentrating on the front, maybe it would work to get them out. If I'm nearer to the bad guy than the exit then the best shot I'd probably have is to go at him as aggressively as possible because there's no way I can hustle a bunch of confused people out of the theater faster than the speed of that guy's bullets.

I always pay attention to who is coming and going during the movies. It has always been theater employees or patrons going about mundane business. A guy kitted up like that throwing gas canisters would tend to stick out.

I would imagine that during the initial moments of the attack there was a mass paralysis among the patrons at the theater as the bad man began his work. The prepared individual processes what is happening faster than the unprepared one and can use that moment of paralysis to at least take the initiative away from the bad guy.

Once it erupts into a gunfight...yeah. There's going to be some confusion. That's why we train, right? To recognize the bad soon enough to let us be proactive enough to limit the damage and to have the skill to actually make good on the opportunities presented to us to stop the problem before it reaches horrific levels, and to deal with all the distractions present when you're trying to dispatch someone who wants to kill you. I'm much better prepared for him than he is for me.

A group of PF.com regulars got together and went to see a movie a while back. If that group had been in Colorado this would have been a very different story.

[BaiHu]

I'm still perplexed that in a CO movie theater, NO ONE had a CCW and NO ONE resisted. Perhaps we'll find out that I was wrong or perhaps we'll find that the plan was executed so well that no one could fire upon him.

[NickA]

Local connection to the story:
http://www.ksat.com/news/SA-woman-killed-in-Colo-shooting/-/478452/15615996/-/q89pq5/-/index.html
A young lady from here was among the victims. Apparently she also narrowly escaped a shooting at a a mall in Toronto a few months ago. Thoughts and prayers to her family and those of all the victims.


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[BaiHu]

Ahhh, this is why no one resisted; no one had a gun.

The guy chose the right place to attack in CO, b/c no one can carry in this theater (scroll to post #57):

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/open-carry-issues-discussions/89005-asked-leave-cinemark-theater-4.html

[TCinVA]

Local connection to the story:
http://www.ksat.com/news/SA-woman-killed-in-Colo-shooting/-/478452/15615996/-/q89pq5/-/index.html
A young lady from here was among the victims. Apparently she also narrowly escaped a shooting at a a mall in Toronto a few months ago. Thoughts and prayers to her family and those of all the victims.


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

I hate it when bad things happen to good people. It offends me at the cellular level.

[G60]

Ahhh, this is why no one resisted; no one had a gun.

The guy chose the right place to attack in CO, b/c no one can carry in this theater (scroll to post #57):

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/open-carry-issues-discussions/89005-asked-leave-cinemark-theater-4.html

Not exactly...




Keep in mind that in Colorado, it doesn't matter if signs are posted prohibiting CCW on private property (obviously this is not the same as at restricted government locations) as they hold no basis in CO law. If discovered CCW, the worst that can happen is you is getting charged with trespassing if you don't immediately depart if asked to do so by the mangement/owner. The only way to stop law abiding citizens from carrying in CO is to have basically airport security at every entrance. Of course this would not have stopped this incident since the perpetrator reportedly jammed open a locked exit door...

[TCinVA]

Ahhh, this is why no one resisted; no one had a gun.

The guy chose the right place to attack in CO, b/c no one can carry in this theater (scroll to post #57):

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/open-carry-issues-discussions/89005-asked-leave-cinemark-theater-4.html

Like Doc said...what the theater doesn't know won't hurt me.

[NETim]

Midnight showing on a weeknight? How many of the CCW mindset would be in that situation in the first place? A good percentage of that already small population is home sleeping soundly in their beds.

I do carry at the matinees though. :)

[DocGKR]

While it may violate some illogical nanny corporate business policy, that is not the same as being ILLEGAL, as in prohibited and punishable by force of LAW.

[NickA]

Like Doc said...what the theater doesn't know won't hurt me.

Yep, law is the same here in TX. I don't even notice the signs anymore unless they're the legit 30.06 sign.
This may be a thread of its own, but a question : normally being close to the exit seems like a good idea, but in this case people closest to the door were probably the first victims. I'm sure there's more than one door, but still- where do you think the best place to be is in a situation like this one?
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[BaiHu]

Like Doc said...what the theater doesn't know won't hurt me.

I'm not disagreeing with you guys, but I'd wager to bet that the average Joe gun owner a) doesn't quite know his rights, b) if he does, doesn't want to fight it out in case he gets an activist style management team or officer showing up on the scene and c) doesn't want to lose his right or his property.

Am I wrong??

[DocGKR]

I like to be in a non-descript corner with nothing behind me except a wall.

In addition, I try to avoid crowds, drunks, "partyers", and other potential troublesome situations.

Everytime I go out to a movie theater, mall, restaurant, school, concert, church, etc... I assume an active shooting may occur and prepare accordingly; if it does not happen that trip, I am pleasantly surprised and enjoy the rest of my day.

[YVK]

I'm thinking about what I could/should do if I were there during the attack. Assuming you have a light and a sidearm, now what? Crowded theater, dark, smoke, flashing lights, screams, pushing, shoving, etc. Do you try to get close enough to make a well aimed shot? What about your spouse and kids that are with you? From what we know of the scenario, what do you do?

This one is/was as bad as one can imagine, between all negative factors you'd mentioned, likely near-impossibility of a clean look, the fact that the coward wore an IBA.
If I had family with me, I'd do exactly what TC said.
The jackass had an AK and a shotgun. If I'd recognized that, I doubt I'd venture to get close enough with a pistol.
My take is that it was almost a no-win situation for any CCW holder. Somebody had to be close enough to see the killer and recognize the situation, not be shot by him in a first place, decide to take a head shot, and make it, all in low-light, with tear gas and commotion around. The demands on situational awareness and analysis, decision making, marksmanship skills and pure luck is too high here, IMO.

[Skullybones]

The theater bans open carry, but does not ban CCW. Very sad event indeed.

[BaiHu]

The theater bans open carry, but does not ban CCW. Very sad event indeed.

Thanks for that clarification. It certainly was a diabolically, evilly and well-planned attack made by a motivated and disciplined psychotic. I'm guessing this will make for some new TTPs for our nation's PDs.

[TCinVA]

Apparently this guy wandered around the theater shooting people at random...moving slowly. In the dark with the chaos?

People often ask how fast or accurate you really need to be. Well...in this situation being able to pull a good score on the FAST drill would probably come in handy.

[JV_]

Perhaps I should reconsider never carrying a flashlight.

[NickA]

I like to be in a non-descript corner with nothing behind me except a wall.

In addition, I try to avoid crowds, drunks, "partyers", and other potential troublesome situations.

Everytime I go out to a movie theater, mall, restaurant, school, concert, church, etc... I assume an active shooting may occur and prepare accordingly; if it does not happen that trip, I am pleasantly surprised and enjoy the rest of my day.

So you'd trade a quick exit for security on at least one side (wall or walls) and a better view of the entrances /exits?
(not arguing, just making sure I follow as that makes sense to me)

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[TCinVA]

Perhaps I should reconsider never carrying a flashlight.

...or a spare mag.

[TCinVA]

So you'd trade a quick exit for security on at least one side (wall or walls) and a better view of the entrances /exits?
(not arguing, just making sure I follow as that makes sense to me)

I would.

[NickA]

Apparently this guy wandered around the theater shooting people at random...moving slowly. In the dark with the chaos?

People often ask how fast or accurate you really need to be. Well...in this situation being able to pull a good score on the FAST drill would probably come in handy.

I'm in no way sure I could have made a head shot on the guy in that situation (assuming he was really wearing armor and I actually realized it), but I'm reasonably certain I could have let him know his free ride was over with some body shots. IIRC there's been cases where the first sign of resistance causes these nuts to "turn the gun on themselves", wish it would have happened this time.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[LittleLebowski]

Perhaps I should reconsider never carrying a flashlight.

I would. I always have a flashlight. Recommend http://tacticalleds.com solely because I think the owner has a lot of integrity and will take the time to answer your questions.

[peterb]

Speaking of exits: in a movie theater -- or other similar public spaces -- people will usually try to leave the same way they came in, even if other exits are much closer. Be aware of your options.

[TCinVA]

I'm in no way sure I could have made a head shot on the guy in that situation (assuming he was really wearing armor and I actually realized it), but I'm reasonably certain I could have let him know his free ride was over with some body shots. IIRC there's been cases where the first sign of resistance causes these nuts to "turn the gun on themselves", wish it would have happened this time.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

The fact that he was captured alive tends to indicate he was not in a mindset that would have fared well in a gunfight.

Slaughtering innocent people begging for their lives is one thing. Being engaged in a fight with someone who is absolutely committed to ending you no matter what it takes is quite another. It doesn't make you invulnerable, but there is something to being the meanest dog in the fight. Somebody who isn't operating at that level will find themselves in a lot of trouble if they're dealing with somebody who is...even if they do have an advantage in weapons and armor.

[41magfan]

Setting the gun issue completely aside, it’s a shame someone didn’t have the means, will or opportunity to stick three or four inches of cold steel into this guy if nothing else. I’m 100% confident that something as simple as a properly applied Spyderco folder - of any reasonable size – to this guy’s face and neck would have drastically changed the dynamics of this attack.

But I’m certain someone would rather engage in some silly discussion about why these things happen. Personally, I don’t see that it matters. Does the wolf attack a flock of sheep because he’s a wolf, or because the sheep are sheep? Again, I don’t really care.

Since I don’t fly anymore or go into many places with metal detectors, I seldom go about without a firearm. But, I’m no less “prepared” in the absence of a gun – I’m just limited.

[TCinVA]

Setting the gun issue completely aside, it’s a shame someone didn’t have the means, will or opportunity to stick three or four inches of cold steel into this guy if nothing else. I’m 100% confident that something as simple as a properly applied Spyderco folder - of any reasonable size – to this guy’s face and neck would have drastically changed the dynamics of this attack.


Yes, I imagine that opening the guy's arteries would have changed the dynamics of the situation. Any time a slaughter turns into a fight it's a net positive in terms of limiting the damage the bad guy can do.

Still, an edged weapon against a guy with an AK is a pretty tall order to fill.

[EMC]

Midnight showing on a weeknight? How many of the CCW mindset would be in that situation in the first place? A good percentage of that already small population is home sleeping soundly in their beds.

I do carry at the matinees though. :)

+1

[JDM]

Slaughtering innocent people begging for their lives is one thing. Being engaged in a fight with someone who is absolutely committed to ending you no matter what it takes is quite another. It doesn't make you invulnerable, but there is something to being the meanest dog in the fight. Somebody who isn't operating at that level will find themselves in a lot of trouble if they're dealing with somebody who is...even if they do have an advantage in weapons and armor.

This is worthy of repeating.

[vandal]

The theaters around here are all "stadium" seating. If you're seated anywhere other than the front "neck crane" seats, you're completely boxed in -- no rear exits. Might be able to jump over the entry/stair dividing wall, but that's about a 10-foot+ fall depending on how high up you were.

Thinking whether having a laser sight on the pistol that comes on when grasped (CT) would be a liability in that situation (with the gas/smoke in the air, drawing a line back to you). Of course there should be lead following the laser, and muzzle flashes could give away your position in the dark as well.

[NickA]

Pretty good view of things here, was shocked to find it on CNN :
http://us.cnn.com/2012/07/20/opinion/fox-mass-murder/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[G60]

A round-up of "Half-Assed Media Speculation About the Batman Shooter:"
http://reason.com/blog/2012/07/20/half-assed-media-speculation-about-the-b

[RoyGBiv]

...or a spare mag.
As someone who almost never carries a spare, I've been reconsidering this recently...


Speaking of exits: in a movie theater -- or other similar public spaces -- people will usually try to leave the same way they came in, even if other exits are much closer. Be aware of your options.
Wife and I went to the movies last night (not Batman). As we waited for the movie to start I pointed out to her that there was only one exit in the front of the theater, it was on the left side, and that the exit light seemed to be out. She gave me the stink eye. You know the one... The "you're way too worried about nothing" look.

Needless to say that she feels differently this morning.

[RoyGBiv]

Pretty good view of things here, was shocked to find it on CNN :
http://us.cnn.com/2012/07/20/opinion/fox-mass-murder/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

I am stunned that CNN would post this....

Mass murder is regrettably one of the painful consequences of the freedoms we enjoy.

[bdcheung]

Why can't these psychopaths ever just get in a car and plow into a crowd? I'd love to hear the calls for the government to ban assault vehicles.

[JV_]

ban assault vehicles.Environmentalists and the SUV?

[Kyle Reese]

Why can't these psychopaths ever just get in a car and plow into a crowd? I'd love to hear the calls for the government to ban assault vehicles.

Maybe not a ban, but a 7 day waiting period before taking possession of said Regulated Vehicle, and being "Not Disapproved" to do so.

[Dropkick]

I would. I always have a flashlight. Recommend http://tacticalleds.com solely because I think the owner has a lot of integrity and will take the time to answer your questions.

I'll second that recommendation.

[TCinVA]

Another thought:

If there was ever an argument for having a small IFAK/blowout kit handy....

[dookie1481]

Why can't these psychopaths ever just get in a car and plow into a crowd? I'd love to hear the calls for the government to ban assault vehicles.

It happened in my city (Vegas) a few years ago. Oddly, there was no criticism of the UAW or General Motors. Apparently only SOME inanimate objects are inherently evil.

[NETim]

Why can't these psychopaths ever just get in a car and plow into a crowd? I'd love to hear the calls for the government to ban assault vehicles.

You know, at the end of the day, there is far more damage to society wrought by the use and misuse of alcohol than that involving firearms, yet few, if any, get their panties in a twist over alcohol availability.

[TCinVA]

It happened in my city (Vegas) a few years ago. Oddly, there was no criticism of the UAW or General Motors. Apparently only SOME inanimate objects are inherently evil.

We have how many thousands killed every year by alcohol and how many more injured or maimed?

...but those many psychologically accept. Guns are different in people's brains. Plus there's political points to be scored, so...

[G60]

We have how many thousands killed every year by alcohol and how many more injured or maimed?

...but those many psychologically accept. Guns are different in people's brains. Plus there's political points to be scored, so...

The CDC estimates 70,000 alcohol related deaths each year, outnumbering gun deaths by about 42,000 (using CDC suicide & accidental firearms deaths + FBI homicide data).

It is really interesting how the two are treated so differently by the media and the general population.

[Mr_White]

Everytime I go out to a movie theater, mall, restaurant, school, concert, church, etc... I assume an active shooting may occur and prepare accordingly; if it does not happen that trip, I am pleasantly surprised and enjoy the rest of my day.

I think the above is an exceedingly important mindset to have. You need to expect it. (Whatever low-likelihood but high-consequence event is under discussion.) Don't think about what to do if it happens. Think about what to do when it happens - know it is coming and look for it. That is a subtle but important difference, and one that can lead to us recognizing a developing problem sooner and hopefully allowing us less hesitation in acting on what we see.


Still, an edged weapon against a guy with an AK is a pretty tall order to fill.

True enough, especially on paper, but given all the reported pandemonium, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find some opportunity in the darkness, irregular lighting, and general chaos for a knife-armed person to flank or attack from the rear and get a knife in and grapple started before the mass murderer even had a chance to react.

This last comment is not directed at any particular person, or even this group really: when events like this occur - that is, one where the problem may be particularly difficult to solve, many people, both inside and outside the defensive training community, commonly react by saying that resistance is probably futile or success is unlikely. I think that's the wrong way to think, particularly for us. In post-event discussions like this one, I personally believe very strongly that we should be trying to find or invent the solutions, however narrow the opportunity may be to apply them. There is nothing wrong with escaping this situation if you aren't duty-bound to deal with it. Nothing at all. But if one is going to overcome an attacker like this one, or worse, attackers, we are going to need to make a hasty plan, recognize opportunity, and at that moment act with complete and total precision and aggression.

Easy for me to say, sitting here behind the computer, but that is what I believe.

[Jay Cunningham]

I wouldn't be inclined to rely upon the mercy of the guy with the gas mask and the semi-auto rifle for my survival.

[NETim]

I think the above is an exceedingly important mindset to have. You need to expect it. (Whatever low-likelihood but high-consequence event is under discussion.) Don't think about what to do if it happens. Think about what to do when it happens - know it is coming and look for it. That is a subtle but important difference, and one that can lead to us recognizing a developing problem sooner and hopefully allowing us less hesitation in acting on what we see.





And we're right back to Cooper's Color Code... the state of preparedness. The mindset. The awareness.

The edge.

[jlw]

Sad day. Prayers for all the families. This link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFuNDOQ3b-0&feature=player_embedded#!) was posted on lawofficer.com. It's the radio traffic from this incident. It sounds like utter chaos.

Amazing dispatchers, and "Lincoln 25" was cool and in charge.

[Corlissimo]

This may be a thread of its own, but a question : normally being close to the exit seems like a good idea, but in this case people closest to the door were probably the first victims. I'm sure there's more than one door, but still- where do you think the best place to be is in a situation like this one?


At the top level, towards the corners if at all possible, just like any restaurant I go to. I want to see as much of the place as I can and I don't want people behind me if at all possible. To me, this vantage point gives me a good amount of time (relatively speaking) to figure out a plan of action.

Of course, the top, back area of the theater is not the best place to be in the event of a fire, which is statistically more likely to occur. then again, in light of this event maybe the odds are swinging over to the active shooter side of the spectrum.

[JodyH]

I harbor no illusions as to what my chances of successfully engaging and stopping this guy with a handgun would have been.
There is freedom in knowing you're screwed going into a situation, use that to your advantage and step into the void.

[NETim]

I harbor no illusions as to what my chances of successfully engaging and stopping this guy with a handgun would have been.
There is freedom in knowing you're screwed going into a situation, use that to your advantage and step into the void.

Still better than a box of Gummi Bears. :)

[JHC]

I think the above is an exceedingly important mindset to have. You need to expect it. (Whatever low-likelihood but high-consequence event is under discussion.) Don't think about what to do if it happens. Think about what to do when it happens - know it is coming and look for it. That is a subtle but important difference, and one that can lead to us recognizing a developing problem sooner and hopefully allowing us less hesitation in acting on what we see.



True enough, especially on paper, but given all the reported pandemonium, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find some opportunity in the darkness, irregular lighting, and general chaos for a knife-armed person to flank or attack from the rear and get a knife in and grapple started before the mass murderer even had a chance to react.

This last comment is not directed at any particular person, or even this group really: when events like this occur - that is, one where the problem may be particularly difficult to solve, many people, both inside and outside the defensive training community, commonly react by saying that resistance is probably futile or success is unlikely. I think that's the wrong way to think, particularly for us. In post-event discussions like this one, I personally believe very strongly that we should be trying to find or invent the solutions, however narrow the opportunity may be to apply them. There is nothing wrong with escaping this situation if you aren't duty-bound to deal with it. Nothing at all. But if one is going to overcome an attacker like this one, or worse, attackers, we are going to need to make a hasty plan, recognize opportunity, and at that moment act with complete and total precision and aggression.

Easy for me to say, sitting here behind the computer, but that is what I believe.

Absolutely correct A-Z and DocGKR's note you quoted as well. There have been incidents including a school shooting in OR years ago where unarmed non-victims won the day without firearms. In the OR case it was a HS athlete - a wrestler I think (figures) that took a student shooter to the floor and disarmed him of a rifle.

[Spr1]

Absolutely correct A-Z and DocGKR's note you quoted as well. There have been incidents including a school shooting in OR years ago where unarmed non-victims won the day without firearms. In the OR case it was a HS athlete - a wrestler I think (figures) that took a student shooter to the floor and disarmed him of a rifle.

And that HS kid was familiar with firearms and reloading pauses and knew when to attack.

[ToddG]

Took the Brady Bunch less than 18 hours to put together a mass email asking people to sign this electronic petition:

I Demand Congress Stop Arming Dangerous People

The horrendous shooting in Aurora, CO is yet another tragic reminder that we have a national problem of easy availability of guns in this country.

Sign our petition to demand Congress address this problem:

I believe that these people should not be able to buy, own, or carry a gun anywhere in our nation:

• Convicted felons
• Convicted domestic abusers
• Terrorists
• People found to be dangerously mentally ill

Candidates for Congress, if you don't sign this Statement of Principle, I won't vote for you.

Setting aside the undefined "terrorists," aren't the rest already prohibited persons?

[YVK]

I harbor no illusions as to what my chances of successfully engaging and stopping this guy with a handgun would have been.
There is freedom in knowing you're screwed going into a situation, use that to your advantage and step into the void.

Great post, Jody. I am aware of only one other case of a CCW holder engaging an armor-wearing killer armed with an AK. That CCW holder saved some lives, but lost his own.

On account of taking action in tight crowded areas, has anybody ever navigated through/with a panicked mass of people? I had to do it twice in my life, once evacuating from a plane [nothing major], and once from an arena that lost electric power. Both weren't dramatic as far as actual seriousness of situation were concerned, but both were good reality checks.

[SteveK]

They are sir. This nutjob is an interesting case though. Most mass murderers/shooters have an exit plan. That is they don't plan to survive the incident. Most plan to commit suicide when they are cornered or do the death by cop thing. This cat was armored up and allowed himself to be arrested. That's a new kind of messed up.

[jslaker]

Took the Brady Bunch less than 18 hours to put together a mass email asking people to sign this electronic petition:


Setting aside the undefined "terrorists," aren't the rest already prohibited persons?

Felons and mentally ill since at least 1968, domestic violence since 1997.

[BaiHu]

Took the Brady Bunch less than 18 hours to put together a mass email asking people to sign this electronic petition:


Setting aside the undefined "terrorists," aren't the rest already prohibited persons?

Todd,
You may be a highly regarded firearms expert, but you're obviously an amateur when it comes to politics. You brought up logic in an anti-gun legislation conversation ;)

[Mr_White]

Absolutely correct A-Z and DocGKR's note you quoted as well. There have been incidents including a school shooting in OR years ago where unarmed non-victims won the day without firearms. In the OR case it was a HS athlete - a wrestler I think (figures) that took a student shooter to the floor and disarmed him of a rifle.


And that HS kid was familiar with firearms and reloading pauses and knew when to attack.

Exactly right IIRC. Wrestler took murderer down and stopped further shooting. Wrestler was shot (in the chest, I think) in the process and still got it done.

[MikeyC]

On account of taking action in tight crowded areas, has anybody ever navigated through/with a panicked mass of people? I had to do it twice in my life, once evacuating from a plane [nothing major], and once from an arena that lost electric power. Both weren't dramatic as far as actual seriousness of situation were concerned, but both were good reality checks.

I've done it a bunch of times, generally in buildings that were on fire. Moving against them is understandably worse than moving with them .Even with a bunch of other guys fighting our way up there stairs it's no small feat. There's no way I can see you'd do it, like if you were angling to attack a bad guy, without being immediately spotted.

[Corlissimo]

I harbor no illusions as to what my chances of successfully engaging and stopping this guy with a handgun would have been.
There is freedom in knowing you're screwed going into a situation, use that to your advantage and step into the void.

+1 to this mindset!

There are none so free as those who have nothing left to lose.

Of course, it's easy to speculate and puff out chests from behind a keyboard, or even just in our own minds, but there is a lot to be said for prepping one's mind to stand your ground & take initiative however you can in the apparent "no-win" scenario. A great example of this was those who acted so heroically on Flight 93. There's no telling how many lives they saved simply because they drew the line in the sand and then resolved themselves to act.

[KeeFus]

Amazing dispatchers, and "Lincoln 25" was cool and in charge.

Yea, the dispatcher & the officers were 10-8!

From what I've read elsewhere, Aurora PD is a pretty squared away agency. I'm a little more than miffed that the officers had to ask for gas masks...reason: we aren't issued them either because "we have no need for them". PFFT!!! Typical it'll never happen here BS mindset.

[MD7305]

Yea, the dispatcher & the officers were 10-8!

From what I've read elsewhere, Aurora PD is a pretty squared away agency. I'm a little more than miffed that the officers had to ask for gas masks...reason: we aren't issued them either because "we have no need for them". PFFT!!! Typical it'll never happen here BS mindset.

I agree with you gentlemen. Outstanding work in an insane incident. I feel for those officers, I can't imagine the ugliness of that scene and the helplessness of wanting to enter theatre 9 but the gas preventing entry. I had never thought about adding a mask on my active shooter rig but this has opened my eyes. If you're not issued one MSAs can be found on eBay cheap. I pray for the families, victims, and first responders. Sad day.

[TCinVA]

Apparently some dude has made national news for himself because during this incident he set down his 4 month old child and beat feet. All the way to the car. And then he got in the car and drove away.

...with his girlfriend and two small children still back in the theater. The girlfriend and a good samaritan were both wounded by the gunman as they attempted to protect the children from gunfire and get them out.

While the dad was running.

Words fail me.

[SteveK]

Apparently some dude has made national news for himself because during this incident he set down his 4 month old child and beat feet. All the way to the car. And then he got in the car and drove away.

...with his girlfriend and two small children still back in the theater. The girlfriend and a good samaritan were both wounded by the gunman as they attempted to protect the children from gunfire and get them out.

While the dad was running.

Words fail me.

I would expect she is an ex-girlfrind now...

[Savage Hands]

Apparently some dude has made national news for himself because during this incident he set down his 4 month old child and beat feet. All the way to the car. And then he got in the car and drove away.

...with his girlfriend and two small children still back in the theater. The girlfriend and a good samaritan were both wounded by the gunman as they attempted to protect the children from gunfire and get them out.

While the dad was running.

Words fail me.




I'd love to see this heavily reported on that coward...

[Kyle Reese]

Apparently some dude has made national news for himself because during this incident he set down his 4 month old child and beat feet. All the way to the car. And then he got in the car and drove away.

...with his girlfriend and two small children still back in the theater. The girlfriend and a good samaritan were both wounded by the gunman as they attempted to protect the children from gunfire and get them out.

While the dad was running.

Words fail me.

I've got some, but think it's better that I keep them to myself. :mad::mad::mad:

[JMorse]

Wow. That's an intense sound clip. That dispatcher was amazing.

[Savage Hands]

I've got some, but think it's better that I keep them to myself. :mad::mad::mad:



Here's a real man who stepped up to help that mother and her children:
http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981488017

and here's the coward that abandoned his family:
http://youtu.be/YFZ7C5-h_m4

[RoyGBiv]

and here's the coward that abandoned his family:
http://youtu.be/YFZ7C5-h_m4
The smug expression on his face when she was relating the story of his proposal.... sickening.

I'm not going to pile on and call him a coward. He folded under intense pressure. Lots of people would/did/do. Now he knows. Now the world knows.
I will fault him for trying to somehow make himself into a sympathetic character by giving a TV interview.
If I abandoned my family to hostile gunfire, I'd at least be ashamed enough to stay in hiding.

[JM Campbell]

I think Mr. Hughes at SIRT just found the face for his running targets.

I hope this young lady wakes up and takes the situation in.

[Long tom coffin]

I would. I always have a flashlight. Recommend http://tacticalleds.com solely because I think the owner has a lot of integrity and will take the time to answer your questions.



I always have a clip flashlight in my pocket. I also keep a spare within easy reach in my monsoon (course, I don't really think a 500 lumen monster could count as a "spare".


I always felt like I was being little over cautious carrying a loaded 19, 2 spare mags in belt with 2 spares in the edc bag, along with a BUG. It's a sick sort of validation to feel, reading about this incident, but you never really can predict when these kinds of nuts will show up.

[Long tom coffin]

I've got some, but think it's better that I keep them to myself. :mad::mad::mad:

Just as a side note, Piers Morgan is defending this dude's actions as "logical".


nuff said.

[Tamara]

and here's the coward that abandoned his family:
http://youtu.be/YFZ7C5-h_m4

Wait, in the aftermath, he proposed marriage and she said "yes" instead of beating his head in with a frickin' shovel?

Sometimes I just don't understand the other monkeys stuck here in the cage with me... :confused:

[JodyH]

I guarantee it wasn't the first or last time that coward will disappoint and abandon his kids and girlfriend/wife.

[JHC]

I guarantee it wasn't the first or last time that coward will disappoint and abandon his kids and girlfriend/wife.

+1 If she ties the knot with him now, she's an idiot.

[jstyer]

If I abandoned my family to hostile gunfire, I'd at least be ashamed enough to stay in hiding.

This.

And he's also a coward... (or at bare minimum a super-douche)

[Kyle Reese]

Just as a side note, Piers Morgan is defending this dude's actions as "logical".


nuff said.

All 6 people who watch his show would probably agree with him.

[Savage Hands]

I guarantee it wasn't the first or last time that coward will disappoint and abandon his kids and girlfriend/wife.


This!

[SeriousStudent]

Apparently some dude has made national news for himself because during this incident he set down his 4 month old child and beat feet. All the way to the car. And then he got in the car and drove away.

...with his girlfriend and two small children still back in the theater. The girlfriend and a good samaritan were both wounded by the gunman as they attempted to protect the children from gunfire and get them out.

While the dad was running.

Words fail me.

I would pay large, and I mean significantly large amounts of money to watch R. Lee Ermey tell him some words in person. And you got the noun right, TC. He was "some dude", not a man.

Prayers and hopes go out to those affected by this horrible tragedy. There is not enough coal to fuel all the furnaces in Hell, for what I wish would happen to the murderer.

[JHC]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/explosives-removed-from-james-holmess-apartment-and-destroyed-officials-say/2012/07/22/gJQAL9XN2W_print.html

It is emerging that the 100 round drum didn't live up to its theatrical potential. He started with the shotgun, then to the AR which then jammed at some point, then changed to his pistol.

[littlejerry]

I always have a clip flashlight in my pocket. I also keep a spare within easy reach in my monsoon (course, I don't really think a 500 lumen monster could count as a "spare".


I always felt like I was being little over cautious carrying a loaded 19, 2 spare mags in belt with 2 spares in the edc bag, along with a BUG. It's a sick sort of validation to feel, reading about this incident, but you never really can predict when these kinds of nuts will show up.

I always carry a light in my pocket. Its a Quark AA Tactical. It puts out 80 lumens but it doesn't have a lot of throw... I may upgrade to their 2x 123a. Same diameter but ~0.5" longer. Still, depending on the range and the shooter's proximity to the big screen I'm not positive that I would even pull a light.

This also reaffirms my dedication to front and rear night sights. Can't imagine attempting a shot across a theater without a solid rear index.

[EMC]

A lot of talk about how it would be near impossible for someone with a handgun to go against a body armored shooter reminded me of this story about an officer who did and prevailed. Luck involved? Absolutely, but it has been done. 75 foot headshot with his service pistol after being wounded.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12407323

[JConn]

A lot of talk about how it would be near impossible for someone with a handgun to go against a body armored shooter reminded me of this story about an officer who did and prevailed. Luck involved? Absolutely, but it has been done. 75 foot headshot with his service pistol after being wounded.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12407323


I would much rather go down raining lead down on the guy than sit quietly and depend on fate to let me live. Hopefully one shot would find a crack in the armor. The way I figure at least it would distract him so loved ones could possibly flee.

[seabiscuit]

Don't have any experience with it but can't a shot to the armor crack ribs/knock people down? Probably not a pistol round though, right?

[Tamara]

Don't have any experience with it but can't a shot to the armor crack ribs/knock people down?

No, but I reckon I'll get points for trying. :eek:

[Savage Hands]

Don't have any experience with it but can't a shot to the armor crack ribs/knock people down? Probably not a pistol round though, right?


I asked my father last night who is a 34 year veteran of two departments, has Investigated and interviewed many shootings and many who was shot in their body armor and many did not notice it. I didn't ask for too many specifics since it was late but I'm sure there are a dozen factors on why each incident will have a different outcome. Especially since most of these killers shoot themselves or run as soon as they engage equal or greater resistance.

[Savage Hands]

Don't have any experience with it but can't a shot to the armor crack ribs/knock people down? Probably not a pistol round though, right?

I know of a bank robber who was shot in the chest with a shotgun slug while wearing body and it dropped him where he stood, it also left a sweet indent that probably broke the ribs behind it :cool:

[BaiHu]

Two interesting links:
http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/23/a-firearm-owner%E2%80%99s-response-to-the-attack-in-denver

And another tragedy that's just weird given the conversation we've been having about gun control versus vehicle fatalities, etc:
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16834835

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[LOKNLOD]

And another tragedy that's just weird given the conversation we've been having about gun control versus vehicle fatalities, etc:
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16834835


Ha...
I just posted a link to that, "If only we could get high-capacity vehicles off the streets, think of the lives that can be saved!"

[BaiHu]

Ha...
I just posted a link to that, "If only we could get high-capacity vehicles off the streets, think of the lives that can be saved!"

So wrong and yet so right.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[LOKNLOD]

Here come the calls for controlling internet sales of nearly everything:
Colo. shooting suspect used Internet for arsenal (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_COLORADO_SHOOTING_ARSENAL?SITE=AZPHG&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)


In a world where Amazon can track your next book purchase and you must register to buy allergy medicine, James Holmes spent months stockpiling thousands of bullets and head-to-toe ballistic gear without raising any red flags with authorities.

[41magfan]

As a point of context; LEO's wearing body armor routinely get "stopped" by small arms fire (incidental fire, not purposely directed) as it's not uncommon for them to be struck in unprotected areas of the body. Additionally, tactical COPS (tricked out from head to toe) rather routinely get "swatted" by small arms fire - delivered by bad guys that lack firearms proficiency by any measurable standard.

I can tell you from personal experience that there is a tendency to feel like Superman with all that stuff on, but it's just an illusion. Passive safety equipment does a great job of mitigating the threat and it certainly makes you less vulnerable. But, it doesn’t make you bullet proof - just bullet resistant to some degree. Something worth remembering, regardless of which end of the stick you’re holding.

[NickA]

I would much rather go down raining lead down on the guy than sit quietly and depend on fate to let me live. Hopefully one shot would find a crack in the armor. The way I figure at least it would distract him so loved ones could possibly flee.

Big +1 on that.



And another tragedy that's just weird given the conversation we've been having about gun control versus vehicle fatalities, etc:
http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16834835

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

A coworker got his 2002 Ford F250 stolen a few weeks ago from here at work, seems that they followed him back from lunch and took it as soon as he went in the building. Recovered the next day with no back seats or console; it's so common here we all knew that that's how it would be found the second it went missing. The early 2000's Fords are extremely easy to break into, and make great vehicles for transporting lots of illegals, dope, or whatever. In fact you can get fantastic deals at the auctions on Fords with no back seats ;)

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[BaiHu]

This is some bizarre logic from Anthrax guitarist and 'gun enthusiast'. I love how the anti-gun crowd gets their token 'X' out to show the outlier.

http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2012/07/23/firearms_enthusiast_anthrax_guitarist

Let's not talk about the outlier that is this situation, though-that wouldn't be 'fair' and 'balanced' dialog, b/c we'd be using facts then :rolleyes:

[tmoore912]

It appears he was not wearing a ballistic vest. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-07-20/justice/justice_colorado-shooting-weapons_1_ammunition-theater-rounds


Chad Weinman, CEO of TacticalGear.com of Chesterfield, Missouri, told CNN earlier that his company had a receipt matching Holmes' name and his Aurora address.

The receipt showed that Holmes bought an $106.99 Blackhawk urban assault vest (http://tacticalgear.com/blackhawk-urban-assault-vest?utm_source=gs&utm_medium=sce&gclid=CKbDrcC2sLECFQgFnQoddHAAwA), a $52.99 Blackhawk Omega Elite triple pistol magazine, a $52.99 Blackhawk Omega Elite M16 magazine pouch, and a $77.99 Blackhawk Be-Wharned silver knife.

With shipping costs, the total bill came to $306.99, according to a copy of the receipt provided to CNN.

[Kyle Reese]

It appears he was not wearing a ballistic vest. http://articles.cnn.com/2012-07-20/justice/justice_colorado-shooting-weapons_1_ammunition-theater-rounds

The only thing missing was a SERPA.

[LOKNLOD]

This is some bizarre logic from Anthrax guitarist and 'gun enthusiast'. I love how the anti-gun crowd gets their token 'X' out to show the outlier.

http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2012/07/23/firearms_enthusiast_anthrax_guitarist

Let's not talk about the outlier that is this situation, though-that wouldn't be 'fair' and 'balanced' dialog, b/c we'd be using facts then :rolleyes:

Brilliant journalism at the bottom of that page:

921



It appears he was not wearing a ballistic vest.

This is the sound of my complete and utter shock.

[BaiHu]

Just in case you were wondering about 'equivalence' when reporting crime and anti-gun sentiments.

Conveniently, the media hasn't said much about this:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/violence

Now, let me see, Chicago, ILL....(*hear typing*) not a very gun-friendly environment: http://www.usacarry.com/forums/concealed-carry-discussion/26721-illinois-house-bill-hb0148-concealed-carry-bill-illinois.html and http://www.usacarry.com/forums/concealed-carry-discussion/26555-illinois-ban-concealed-carry-coming-end.html

[ToddG]

Brilliant journalism at the bottom of that page:

Reminded me of this from when Saddam was hanged, courtesy of FOXNEWS.com...

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/saddam.png

[JConn]

Ok so now this truth, which will never be made terribly public, comes out. No "head to toe" body armor. This guy could of been mitigated by one shot from one person who was concealing. Not to mention emptying a magazine at the guy and possibly having others in the theater do the same. This just pisses me off. So many lives could of been easily saved.

Glad to know that tactical tuxedo = full impenitrable body armor.

I wonder if the tear gas was really just a couple of smoke grenades?

[jstyer]

The "tear gas" was just smoke... I thought that was pretty clear? Or was I misinformed?

[Jason F]

All these people wailing over the prevalence of "semi-automatic weapons" makes me cringe and writhe with anger - BUT, would you believe that CNN actually defined what a semi-auto is accurately on the 2nd page of that article? I'm stunned.

[NMBigfoot02]

snip... BUT, would you believe that CNN actually defined what a semi-auto is accurately on the 2nd page of that article? I'm stunned.

That alone signifies how far we've come since '94.

[LOKNLOD]

That alone signifies how far we've come since '94.

Careful... "know thy enemy" works both ways.

[RoyGBiv]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24/background-checks-for-guns-in-colorado-reportedly-jump-41-percent-since-movie/


Between Friday and Sunday, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation approved background checks for 2,887 people who wanted to purchase a firearm — a 43 percent increase over the previous Friday through Sunday and a 39 percent jump over those same days on the first weekend of July.
..........
The Denver Post reports that firearm instructors have also seen increased interest in training needed for a concealed-carry permit.

[TCinVA]

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/12175-two-aurora-shootings-one-widely-known-the-other-ignored

Cliffs notes:

Apparently a couple of months ago in Aurora a felon went into a church service and tried to kill some folks...but his efforts were cut short by a paritioner who killed him before he could kill anyone else.

Funny how that didn't make the news.

[Tamara]

Funny how that didn't make the news.

Quelle surprise! :rolleyes:

[fuse]

But he was an off duty cop. Which invalidates our argument. According to my idiot friends on facebook that I hate

[BaiHu]

Bloomberg went totally effin plaid last night:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444025204577547141392397120.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion

What a fascist dbag...

Here's the transcript if you wanna vomit more: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/23/pmt.01.html

[RoyGBiv]

Bloomberg went totally effin plaid last night:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444025204577547141392397120.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion

What a fascist dbag...

Here's the transcript if you wanna vomit more: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/23/pmt.01.html

At least the Journal got some of this right..


whether Bloomberg meant to suggest a real strike threat or an empty one, it seems obvious that such a move would be counterproductive. The prospect of police shirking their duty to protect the citizenry strengthens, not weakens, the case for private ownership of firearms and other tools of self-defense.

A police strike, as Bloomberg figured out a day late, is illegal in itself. Bloomberg's strike would be for the purpose of curtailing the citizenry's constitutional rights. The mayor urged an unlawful rebellion by government employees against their employers, the people. Since ours is a government of the people, established by the Constitution, this was nothing less than a call for insurrection.
More correct off-topic stuff through the rest of that article as well...

[JV_]

US cops catch attempted ‘Batman’ mass-murder copycat with massive arsenal
http://rt.com/usa/news/police-copycat-batman-massacre-932/

[BaiHu]

At least the Journal got some of this right..


More correct off-topic stuff through the rest of that article as well...

Honestly, he should be stripped from his station as mayor. He's basically inciting anarchy, the destruction of the rule of law and endangering society. Can he be impeached with these comments??

[LHS]

US cops catch attempted ‘Batman’ mass-murder copycat with massive arsenal
http://rt.com/usa/news/police-copycat-batman-massacre-932/

How is he a copycat? He said he brought a gun to the batman showing, but didn't shoot anyone. He was going to shoot his boss later. I think the media's stretching with this one.

That said, man, I hope they never pull me over on my way to the range...

[Kyle Reese]

Honestly, he should be stripped from his station as mayor. He's basically inciting anarchy, the destruction of the rule of law and endangering society. Can he be impeached with these comments??

He's quite popular with the moonbats and limousine liberals in his AO. If anything, they're applauding his comments.

[BaiHu]

update on loser warning his psychiatrist:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/25/exclusive-movie-massacre-suspect-laid-out-plans-in-package-mailed-to/

[Suvorov]

Maybe it is because I spend half my life steeped in the rabidly antigun progressive bay area, but I fully expect that this shooting will be the "crisis" needed to push through a magazine capacity ban of some sort either by congress or by executive order. The irony I realized is that both this Joker and the Gifford shooter used extended capacity magazines and both of them failed on them causing the joker to switch to pistol and Gifford's shooter to be tackled.

Makes me wonder if these super capacity magazines aren't actually blessings in disguise as they seem to have inherent flaws but tend to draw these idiots to them like flies.

[Tamara]

He's basically inciting anarchy...

More and more I'm convinced that that's what they want. It explains the gleeful blood-dancing. The worse, the better (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Chernyshevsky#Ideas_and_influence)...

Sometimes you gotta break an egg or fifty to make an omelet.

[Suvorov]

Honestly, he should be stripped from his station as mayor. He's basically inciting anarchy, the destruction of the rule of law and endangering society.

It is as if he is trying to be Bane himself.


More and more I'm convinced that that's what they want. It explains the gleeful blood-dancing. The worse, the better...

Sometimes you gotta break an egg or fifty to make an omelet.

I think you are hitting the nail on the head. It has been the MO of the progressives since their inception. Just look at the various socialist and communist groups in Russia at the turn of the century.

At the risk of being labeled an Alex Jones type (which FTR I am not) - "From out of Chaos - Order"

[RoyGBiv]

US cops catch attempted ‘Batman’ mass-murder copycat with massive arsenal
http://rt.com/usa/news/police-copycat-batman-massacre-932/

Sounds like he was reaching out for help... maybe?
Not very stealthy...


Police pulled Timothy Courtois over after he was spotted speeding along a Maine turnpike at 112mph, flashing his hazard lights.

[RoyGBiv]

Bloomberg went totally effin plaid last night:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444025204577547141392397120.html?m od=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion

What a fascist dbag...

Here's the transcript if you wanna vomit more: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/23/pmt.01.html

One of several good rebuttals...

http://www.officer.com/blog/10746111/rebuttal-to-mayor-bloomberg


What we've JUST seen, Monday, July 23rd, was the first time a politician in the national limelight called on police officers, nationwide, to neglect their duty and endanger lives to serve that politician's anti-gun cause.
........
How dare you, Mayor Bloomberg. How dare you in your arrogance assume that police officers are such lowly scoundrels that they would readily set their duties aside either to serve your interest OR to reduce the risk they face each day in a selfish attempt to force the public to support a given agenda. How dare you suggest that over 700,000 honorable, decent and brave men and women neglect their duty, forget their oath, and risk the public safety in the name of YOUR anti-gun agenda.

............
As an experiment, I would suggest to Mayor Bloomberg that he forgo his protective detail and all police services within one block of city hall in NYC. Since the Mayor seems to feel that cops going on strike would be a good idea, maybe he should try it out. Just to test the veracity of his theories, maybe he should declare City Hall and one square block on each side off limits to the NYPD. I think he'd see the error of his ways pretty darn quick.

Mayor Bloomberg: your arrogance and ego are your undoing. We law enforcement professionals don't take the oath and perform our duty for any political purpose.
...............
Now... go thank the cops who protect you and stop insulting them with your stupidity.

[RoyGBiv]

I fully expect that this shooting will be the "crisis" needed to push through a magazine capacity ban of some sort either by congress or by executive order.
I believe that you have a valid concern, but ultimately it won't happen.
Look at the sea change in American gun politics in just the last 20 years.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Rtc.gif/300px-Rtc.gif

And... Here's the meat of it....
Thoughtful people agree that eliminating guns won't stop the mad hatters from committing mass murder.
http://townhall.com/columnists/jacobsullum/2012/07/25/outrage_is_not_an_argument/page/full/

[NickA]

One of several good rebuttals...

http://www.officer.com/blog/10746111/rebuttal-to-mayor-bloomberg

Good stuff, glad to see someone on the LEO side speaking out. IIRC Obama made a statement to the effect of "what if it had been my daughters in that theater? " Well I imagine their Secret Service detail would have sorted things out pretty quick. To try and take away my right to provide protection to my family while MY tax money pays to protect yours just makes me furious beyond words.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[TCinVA]

I don't have a problem with the police going on strike.

Bloomburg is a progressive and as such is far smarter, wiser, better looking, and more moral than a reactionary dullard like myself can ever hope to be. So I say we implement his wise suggestion. For two weeks we have absolutely no functional criminal justice system in the United States. (That would include his personal security detail) It would be almost like it used to be back when people moved into remote places on the continent and had to protect themselves from various threats without the help of government and it was such a dismal failure that nobody survived and no one ever went farther west than Kentucky.

...or something like that.

Anyhoo, I think it would be splendid. I mean, it would be pretty sporty at first, but after a few days it would probably be pretty placid most places with "lax" gun laws. Meanwhile L.A., NYC, Chicago, etc...they'd probably be on fire. Seeing as how Bloomburg is a powerful billionaire progressive and as such is obviously much smarter than I can ever hope to be, that situation must somehow be progress.

[Suvorov]

I believe that you have a valid concern, but ultimately it won't happen.
Look at the sea change in American gun politics in just the last 20 years.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Rtc.gif/300px-Rtc.gif

And... Here's the meat of it....
Thoughtful people agree that eliminating guns won't stop the mad hatters from committing mass murder.
http://townhall.com/columnists/jacobsullum/2012/07/25/outrage_is_not_an_argument/page/full/

I really hope you are right, like I said, it may just be a result of all the time I spend in the Bay Area.

[LHS]

Found this today. Total lunacy. For one thing, his schtick about "not one gun rampage has ever been stopped by a armed citizen" is easily debunked. This guy, a supposed officer of the court, wants to totally ban civilian possession of firearms and then start censoring the first amendment by destroying hollywood's "trash culture".

http://www.azcriminallawsexcrimes.com/violent-crimes/gun-violence-in-the-united/

[TCinVA]

...so you're basically complaining that he's acting like a progressive.

[LHS]

...so you're basically complaining that he's acting like a progressive.

Pretty much.

[Suvorov]

Found this today. Total lunacy. For one thing, his schtick about "not one gun rampage has ever been stopped by a armed citizen" is easily debunked. This guy, a supposed officer of the court, wants to totally ban civilian possession of firearms and then start censoring the first amendment by destroying hollywood's "trash culture".

http://www.azcriminallawsexcrimes.com/violent-crimes/gun-violence-in-the-united/

Very little in this world disgusts me more than when I see Americans descendant from those who fled the totalitarian Communist regimes of Eastern Europe embracing the very values that their families opposed. Vladimir Gagic has no excuse and should know better. :mad:

[RoyGBiv]

Found this today. Total lunacy. For one thing, his schtick about "not one gun rampage has ever been stopped by a armed citizen" is easily debunked. This guy, a supposed officer of the court, wants to totally ban civilian possession of firearms and then start censoring the first amendment by destroying hollywood's "trash culture".

http://www.azcriminallawsexcrimes.com/violent-crimes/gun-violence-in-the-united/

Another fool with a keyboard... Nothing to get spun up about. Bloomberg has a much "bullier" pulpit.
You would think a Serbian cum American would have witnessed enough "government control" to feel differently. <shrug>
His Bio on LinkedIn doesn't talk about when he was in Serbia. Maybe he was gone from there by '87, but you'd think he at least watched it on TV.
Maybe he also favored Milosevic. <double shrug>

ETA: Here's my comment to that article.... We'll see if he allows it to be posted..


Just because you say something doesn't make it true... And proving a point by giving an example of something that didn't happen is almost impossible, but in this case I can oblige you. Here is one very relevant example of a "massacre" that was stopped by a concealed carry license holder. It's relevant because it happened this year in Aurora, Colorado. There are literally hundreds more examples on the web and in police records, but you're a smart guy, I bet you already knew that. Facts are so inconvenient for you and your ilk.

http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/12175-two-aurora-shootings-one-widely-known-the-other-ignored

Given that you seem to be Serbian, I would figure that you've already seen the negative consequences of governmental tyranny? Were you on Milosevic's side during those dark times as well?

[JM Campbell]

Roy you win 100rds at my range anyday buddy.

[tmoore912]

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_21119561/media-relates-horror-aurora-movie-theater-slaughter

922

[LOKNLOD]

Good stuff, glad to see someone on the LEO side speaking out.

I recorded this off the local news last Friday evening, it's an Oklahoma County Sheriff's Dept. Lt. (I think) responding to the question of "what about concealed carry?". He had just finished explaining that the only real response for them to this kind of thing was to charge in and take the guy out.

Unfortunately the sound didn't transfer well from my iphone to youtube, so you'll have to turn it way up.

http://youtu.be/gD1qkECE8hA

[BaiHu]

I love the media, they're quite a comedy.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/25/graphic-james-holmes-was-a-man-with-a-plan/

I'm no tactical ninja, but I would imagine it isn't cheap to buy true ballistic body armor, so I first looked at my favorite Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Damascus-FX1-FlexForce-Modular-Control/dp/B003SHBBLE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343316946&sr=8-1&keywords=Ballistic+Leg+Armor
Don't forget to peruse hilarious reviews. As you can see, this is pretty cheap and good for paintball/airsoft or being the most tacticoolest catcher on your company softball team, but I doubt it would stand up to a pistol.

Then I looked here:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CFYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armourofamerica.com%2Fleg-armor.htm&ei=y2MRUNaLEMOe6AGhqYGAAQ&usg=AFQjCNEnv_6DW0NJtaWoZ0PMYzjg6n07Og&sig2=8ZBjpNk6NtJrXP6t4atXqg
But there are no prices. I must be getting closer.

Then I found this:
http://www.bulletproofme.com/Legal_Terms_of_Sale.shtml

In addition to saying they will cooperate with LE to burn your arse if you use their products in a crime, they link you to US Code-Section 931:

(a) In General. - Except as provided in subsection (b), it shall
be unlawful for a person to purchase, own, or possess body armor,
if that person has been convicted of a felony that is -
(1) a crime of violence (as defined in section 16); or
(2) an offense under State law that would constitute a crime of
violence under paragraph (1) if it occurred within the special
maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States.
(b) Affirmative Defense. -
(1) In general. - It shall be an affirmative defense under this
section that -
(A) the defendant obtained prior written certification from
his or her employer that the defendant's purchase, use, or
possession of body armor was necessary for the safe performance
of lawful business activity; and
(B) the use and possession by the defendant were limited to
the course of such performance.
(2) Employer. - In this subsection, the term "employer" means
any other individual employed by the defendant's business that
supervises defendant's activity. If that defendant has no
supervisor, prior written certification is acceptable from any
other employee of the business.

So in 5 minutes of investigative reporting I found out more about what is likely versus what is possible as well as what is legal vs illegal than the whole entire media has figured out in almost a week.

Wouldn't it be nice to make all the money they make for doing a half-assed job that even a 5 minute google search would make them seem just a teensy weensy bit smarter. After all, I've put more effort into this post so that I don't sound like a complete moron amongst my faceless internet friends than these tards do to MILLIONS of viewers who they rely on for $$ in order to make their living.

Lastly, there is this breathless fascination about his armor and gear, but in the end, as soon as someone farted in his general direction, he gave up like the French.

So how do you stop a maniac with no record and access to all the legal or illegal things he would like to procure so he can mete out his psycho fantasies? Allow the citizenry to arm themselves and stop propogandizing a message of meekness and cowardice in the face of poor odds. Obama can tell everyone to get off the couch and compete against China, but by all means don't do that when it comes to a madman, just curl up in the fetal position under a chair and wait to be executed.

/Rant Off

[peterb]

It's not hard to buy body armor: http://www.galls.com/search?searchaction=1&category=Body+Armor&path=All+Products%2f%2f%2f%2fUserSearch%3dVenture_ id%3d503185%2f%2f%2f%2fGear+%26+Equipment

From Galls terms & conditions:

Restriction on Purchase or Possession of Body Armor*
It is generally against Federal Law for a person convicted of a violent felony to purchase or possess body armor. In addition, various States also have laws restricting the purchase or possession of body armor by persons convicted of certain felonies, other crimes of violence, or drug crimes. By purchasing body armor from Galls, you acknowledge and certify that (i) you have no felony convictions, (ii) you have not been convicted of any other crime that would restrict your ability to purchase or possess body armor under any Federal or State law, (iii) you do not intend to use the body armor for any criminal purpose and (iv) you are over 18 years old. Galls reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to refuse to sell body armor to any person. Additionally, the sale of body armor to residents of Connecticut is restricted to in-person sales, unless the sale is made to certain law enforcement or military personnel.

[BaiHu]

I wasn't saying it was hard, just commenting on a) the foaming of the mouth by the media over the tacticoolness of Cpt dbag and b) the lack of interest in sounding remotely informed or even attempting to learn about what they report.

Hey, I have an idea, call your local PD and have them explain what you see. It would be a great leap towards journalism.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[JConn]

http://gizmodo.com/5928889/buying-a-ton-of-guns-on-the-internet-is-cheap-legal-and-shockingly-easy

I know this is what I should expect from this website but a lot of people read it and are going to be upset. Oddly enough, the only thing I got out of it was bulkammo.com's prices suck. I hate that people are so ready to give away freedom because of fear.

[BaiHu]

http://gizmodo.com/5928889/buying-a-ton-of-guns-on-the-internet-is-cheap-legal-and-shockingly-easy

I know this is what I should expect from this website but a lot of people read it and are going to be upset. Oddly enough, the only thing I got out of it was bulkammo.com's prices suck. I hate that people are so ready to give away freedom because of fear.

Felt the same way. Thought the same about the prices and you're spot on regarding people giving their freedom up for comfort :(

[LHS]

http://gizmodo.com/5928889/buying-a-ton-of-guns-on-the-internet-is-cheap-legal-and-shockingly-easy

I know this is what I should expect from this website but a lot of people read it and are going to be upset. Oddly enough, the only thing I got out of it was bulkammo.com's prices suck. I hate that people are so ready to give away freedom because of fear.

He skirts right around the issue that should be slapping him in the face: the internet was a tool in this massacre as much as any of his guns. You think he went down to the local library and pulled up explosive recipes from Encyclopaedia Britannica? I don't see Gizmodo calling for background checks to access the internet.

[BaiHu]

Well said. If only Obama came out and said to that dbag, "you didn't build that arsenal alone." Yup, I went there :rolleyes:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[JConn]

He skirts right around the issue that should be slapping him in the face: the internet was a tool in this massacre as much as any of his guns. You think he went down to the local library and pulled up explosive recipes from Encyclopaedia Britannica? I don't see Gizmodo calling for background checks to access the internet.

No but censoring the internet isn't that far away. The government I'm sure would just like an excuse. Fear is most often a result of a lack of knowledge. If people were educated about firearms, and they weren't just these scary things that police, military, and criminals use, this would be a non issue. Our fight is truely against the ignorant. The real issue is most of them are willfully ignorant. At least that is the way it seems to me based on my conversations.

[ford.304]

http://gizmodo.com/5928889/buying-a-ton-of-guns-on-the-internet-is-cheap-legal-and-shockingly-easy

I know this is what I should expect from this website but a lot of people read it and are going to be upset. Oddly enough, the only thing I got out of it was bulkammo.com's prices suck. I hate that people are so ready to give away freedom because of fear.

You know, I grew up strongly on the "reasonable gun control" side of things. No one needs AR-pattern rifles or to carry with them anywhere, as long as you can keep a bolt action or shotgun in the house. That nonsense.

What convinced me to change my mind, was that I have never seen another political debate where one side was so consistently and incredibly ignorant of the actual, verifiable facts involved. Not just "oh, we can debate whether John Lott's studies are legit or not", but having no clue about the actual function of firearms or the existing law governing them. I find it incredibly offensive when someone tries to ban something that they know nothing about. How do you have any respect for yourself as an author and journalist after writing something like that, with statements that could have been shown to be completely ignorant with a single google search?

[Zhurdan]

You know, I grew up strongly on the "reasonable gun control" side of things. No one needs AR-pattern rifles or to carry with them anywhere, as long as you can keep a bolt action or shotgun in the house. That nonsense.

What convinced me to change my mind, was that I have never seen another political debate where one side was so consistently and incredibly ignorant of the actual, verifiable facts involved. Not just "oh, we can debate whether John Lott's studies are legit or not", but having no clue about the actual function of firearms or the existing law governing them. I find it incredibly offensive when someone tries to ban something that they know nothing about. How do you have any respect for yourself as an author and journalist after writing something like that, with statements that could have been shown to be completely ignorant with a single google search?

Because nowadays, the only thing you get when you google "shoulder thing that flips up" is pure comedic gold.:D

[RoyGBiv]

Because nowadays, the only thing you get when you google "shoulder thing that flips up" is pure comedic gold.:D

I thought the fact that the interview was done by MSNBC was the funnier part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ospNRk2uM3U

[BaiHu]

surprise, surprise...

http://www.freep.com/article/20120802/NEWS07/120802020/Report-James-Holmes-psychiatrist-alerted-school-s-threat-team

[NETim]

Well said. If only Obama came out and said to that dbag, "you didn't build that arsenal alone." Yup, I went there :rolleyes:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

In a sense, he didn't. He was getting about $900/week in grant research money. I'm sure there were all kinds of background checks done before he got the dough.

[Default.mp3]

Does anyone know yet if it's been confirmed that Holmes actually did not have soft armor? I know that he bought the BLACKHAWK! vest from TacticalGear.com, but considering that he went out and also bought a ballistic helmet, wouldn't it make sense that he also had soft armor under the tac vest? Can't really tell, but the pics of the evidence seem to suggest that he had both:
http://i.imgur.com/y5m6d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GjLk6.jpg

[JB326]

Does anyone know yet if it's been confirmed that Holmes actually did not have soft armor? I know that he bought the BLACKHAWK! vest from TacticalGear.com, but considering that he went out and also bought a ballistic helmet, wouldn't it make sense that he also had soft armor under the tac vest? Can't really tell, but the pics of the evidence seem to suggest that he had both:
http://i.imgur.com/y5m6d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GjLk6.jpg

I have read some postings from one of the actual arresting officers on a verified LEO only forum... He says it was all very much legit armor, leggings and all.

[RoyGBiv]

Insanity plea just a few minutes ago..

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/04/judge-accepts-insanity-plea-in-colorado-theater-massacre/