FORD DEALERS LACK OF SERVICE ON OLDER VEHICLES ?

[1slow]

FORD DEALERS LACK OF SERVICE ON OLDER VEHICLES ?

Since 1997 I have been a customer of the same Ford Dealership in Lugoff SC. When Mr. Redfearn owned it it was a pleasure to deal with. Later management was not as good.

Purchases were:
1997 F350 4x4 crew cab,
2000 Excursion V10 4x4,
2005 Excursion V10 4x4,
2004 Expedition 4x4.
2003 Mustang Cobra.

I still have the Excursions and Expedition. I am very happy with the Excursion V10 4x4s.

Lugoff Ford did 95% of the service on these vehicles.


THE PROBLEM
I had scheduled service on my 2005 Excursion V10 4x4 for: why was the engine service light coming on, an oil/filter change and to see what else it might need.

Jeff from service did not return my call back to his original call so I called him again.
Jeff told me that they were willing to do the oil/filter change but they would not diagnose or repair why the service engine light was coming on.
I find this to be inexcusable.

Dealer used to point to older vehicles that were still in service with pride and proof of the quality of the vehicles. Evidently Lugoff Ford is no longer interested in servicing older vehicles past the oil and filter change level.

I am not sure if this lack of supporting older vehicles is just Lugoff Ford or is company wide.
———
I will use an independent shop for repairs.

I am less likely to want another Ford after this. I just want to keep what I have in good shape.

Any thoughts ?

[LittleLebowski]

Did you try contacting the owner of the dealership?

[1slow]

Owner, Ford Corporate are next on my list.

I do not have much hope about the owner.
Redfearn was a great owner, the one after was a big step down and the current one I am dubious about.

[Navin Johnson]

If it is a privately owned dealership the owner is likely on board with whatever decision the service department makes as he probably was involved in making that decision.

I remember several years ago a local Ford dealer turned away warranty customers because they had so much retail work that paid them much better than the warranty work did.

The other issue is technicians are very hard to get and most dealerships are very low on them so they're probably aiming towards the more profitable repairs and avoiding chasing Gremlins on old cars.

[rd62]

1slow

I just had my wife's 2011 Expedition serviced at Jim Hudson Ford in Lexington without issue. Its not a 2005 and a little haul from Lugoff but I don't believe your issue to be indicative of all Ford dealers. We deal with Bob (I don't know his last name) there and he's been good the few times we've taken it in.

[JRB]

03 Cobra? Niiiice.


Long story short, the 6.8L V10 hasn't been offered in common passenger vehicles since 2005.
Like every auto maker these days, attrition/turnover/etc with service techs is worse than it has ever been. So that dealership is likely doing you a favor because it's likely they have maybe one or two guys in that whole service department with any kind of formal training on servicing the 6.8L V10. Or an Excursion of any powertrain, for that matter.

I'd say it's equally likely that not a single tech in that whole workshop has formal training on either, and they'd be dependent on factory documentation and 'figuring it out' to actually do real work on it. Which screws flag hour technicians in a big way (nobody wants to spend 15 hours getting a 5 hour job done right for the first time that they'll likely never do again, and only get paid for that 5 hours) and also screws the service writer because that 'figure it out' time is time lost for that tech to get something else done that they know 100%.
Add parts availability to the mix, and the high chance that whatever part(s) needs to be replaced is no longer available as a Ford Genuine part, and thereby impossible for a dealership to replace, it all adds up to a shit sandwich nobody wants to eat.

So given the high likelihood of a rushed job by a tech that doesn't truly know that V10, and the corresponding high likelihood parts being impossible to find, or a botched repair resulting in a bringback and pissed off customer - it's cheaper in time and money for everyone to annoy you, the customer, up front by simply just skipping the job entirely.

To reiterate, this is an issue across older models from literally every brand selling vehicles in the US these days. Vehicles 10+ years old should be considered enthusiast vehicles and dealership ability and skill for maintaining/repairing them should be heavily scrutinized.

If you're not interested in a newer vehicle, I'd find a local diesel shop that does lots of work on old 7.3L Powerstrokes and such, and ask them about working on your Excursion.

[Coyotesfan97]

I recently had a camshaft position sensor CEL crop up on my 05 Jeep Wrangler. The easy fix is a new one. Chrysler/Dodge no longer makes the part so no OEM and you’re rolling the dice on new parts. Jeep forum guys recommend getting a used one from a wrecking yard. It’s the first thing you replace and hop it works. If a new one doesn’t fix it it’s a Gremlin.

I had a Gremlin. I took it to the dealership and the service guy I dealt with put a specific long term mechanic on it because he’d have the long term knowledge to deal with it. It ended up taking longer because I was third in line. He had to replace some wiring that took care of it. I don’t know how long it would’ve taken a new mechanic to fix.

[trailrunner]

I'd say it's equally likely that not a single tech in that whole workshop has formal training on either, and they'd be dependent on factory documentation and 'figuring it out' to actually do real work on it. Which screws flag hour technicians in a big way (nobody wants to spend 15 hours getting a 5 hour job done right for the first time that they'll likely never do again, and only get paid for that 5 hours) and also screws the service writer because that 'figure it out' time is time lost for that tech to get something else done that they know 100%.


I never really understood charging the book value, or a flat rate, for each repair. Seems like it inflates the price, because as I understand it, a good mechanic can usually do a repair much faster (I can even do some repairs faster than the book rate, and I'm an amateur). Is this correct?

Overall, this is another reason I really hate dealers. I fully and completely understand that they want to make a profit, but sometimes in business there will be some losing jobs. If he bought 5 cars from the dealership and has been bringing them in over the last 20-25 years for routine things like oil changes, they've made a decent profit on all the other jobs. Not only give the tech a break, give him a reward for figuring it out (OK, I'm a little naive). A company like Ford that has been in business for a century should stand behind their product and fix the truck.

This is just my opinion and another reason I despise dealerships and go to my local garage. They specifically advertise that they will keep your older car running because it's cheaper than buying a new car. Two of my cars are 19 and 17 years old and they've never had problems getting parts. My old truck was 25 years old and they also kept that running for me until it rusted out.

[farscott]

It is important to remember that dealers make the vast majority of profit from selling service parts and, not as much, servicing vehicles. It is also important to remember that a dealer can make the most money on warranty repairs as Ford pays the book rate for the job as well as for the part. OEMs are supposed to have enough service parts for vehicles to last a decade after the end of production. For Ford, FCSD also supports with troublesome issues. Out of warranty means the dealer has to pay for the part and for the labor and charge the customer enough to make a profit and the OEM does not support the repair. The most important thing to remember is the OEM has limited control of a dealer for out of warranty issues, like basically none. So dealers pick and choose how long a vehicle will be supported. Known trouble vehicles can get booted faster, especially if the only part source is junked vehicles.

So repairing a 2005 vehicle is problematic for three reasons. The one about techs not being current is a big one, but the others are that is much better to do warranty repairs than to work on an old vehicle where the part supply is unknown and the OEM has no incentive to help the tech. The combo of lack of experience, no part support, and no OEM support means it is much more profitable to turn away the one customer in one hundred that wants to repair a fifteen year-old vehicle at a dealer. That is the province of an independent.

[AKDoug]

I never really understood charging the book value, or a flat rate, for each repair. Seems like it inflates the price, because as I understand it, a good mechanic can usually do a repair much faster (I can even do some repairs faster than the book rate, and I'm an amateur). Is this correct?

Overall, this is another reason I really hate dealers. I fully and completely understand that they want to make a profit, but sometimes in business there will be some losing jobs. If he bought 5 cars from the dealership and has been bringing them in over the last 20-25 years for routine things like oil changes, they've made a decent profit on all the other jobs. Not only give the tech a break, give him a reward for figuring it out (OK, I'm a little naive). A company like Ford that has been in business for a century should stand behind their product and fix the truck.

This is just my opinion and another reason I despise dealerships and go to my local garage. They specifically advertise that they will keep your older car running because it's cheaper than buying a new car. Two of my cars are 19 and 17 years old and they've never had problems getting parts. My old truck was 25 years old and they also kept that running for me until it rusted out.
When I was a wrench at an independent shop 25 years ago, we charged flat rate on all jobs because that is what the customers demanded. They wanted to know what the job cost up front, every single time. Now I'm out of that business, but we are a Stihl dealer. We have the same thing going on, the customer needs to know the cost up front, so I charge Stihl book rate.

I would never take a car out of warranty to a dealership. By the time a vehicle is over 6 years old, the advantage of using the dealer is gone and a good independent shop has seen enough of them to keep current and do a good job.

[Welder]

Vehicles 10+ years old should be considered enthusiast vehicles and dealership ability and skill for maintaining/repairing them should be heavily scrutinized.

From my time spent as a flat-rate dealer tech, I agree with this sentence wholeheartedly.

My vehicles mostly date from the period 2000-2004 because it's the time that I was a tech, and I understand their systems thoroughly. I also can still get paper copies of shop manuals for them off ebay, which is what I was used to and is what I still prefer.

[Suvorov]

03 Cobra? Niiiice.


Long story short, the 6.8L V10 hasn't been offered in common passenger vehicles since 2005.
Like every auto maker these days, attrition/turnover/etc with service techs is worse than it has ever been. So that dealership is likely doing you a favor because it's likely they have maybe one or two guys in that whole service department with any kind of formal training on servicing the 6.8L V10. Or an Excursion of any powertrain, for that matter.

I'd say it's equally likely that not a single tech in that whole workshop has formal training on either, and they'd be dependent on factory documentation and 'figuring it out' to actually do real work on it. Which screws flag hour technicians in a big way (nobody wants to spend 15 hours getting a 5 hour job done right for the first time that they'll likely never do again, and only get paid for that 5 hours) and also screws the service writer because that 'figure it out' time is time lost for that tech to get something else done that they know 100%.
Add parts availability to the mix, and the high chance that whatever part(s) needs to be replaced is no longer available as a Ford Genuine part, and thereby impossible for a dealership to replace, it all adds up to a shit sandwich nobody wants to eat.

So given the high likelihood of a rushed job by a tech that doesn't truly know that V10, and the corresponding high likelihood parts being impossible to find, or a botched repair resulting in a bringback and pissed off customer - it's cheaper in time and money for everyone to annoy you, the customer, up front by simply just skipping the job entirely.

To reiterate, this is an issue across older models from literally every brand selling vehicles in the US these days. Vehicles 10+ years old should be considered enthusiast vehicles and dealership ability and skill for maintaining/repairing them should be heavily scrutinized.

If you're not interested in a newer vehicle, I'd find a local diesel shop that does lots of work on old 7.3L Powerstrokes and such, and ask them about working on your Excursion.




Not what I’m wanting to hear as I have a ‘98 Cobra that may be needing some engine work. It seems real hard to find shops in the bay that know much about late model mustangs and I was hoping a SVT dealership would know what needs done.

[mmc45414]

I recently had a camshaft position sensor CEL crop up on my 05 Jeep Wrangler. The easy fix is a new one. Chrysler/Dodge no longer makes the part so no OEM and you’re rolling the dice on new parts. Jeep forum guys recommend getting a used one from a wrecking yard.

Seems to me like they probably never made something like that in house anyway, wonder if there might be a way to figure out who they sourced it to and seek out that brand?

[Coyotesfan97]

Seems to me like they probably never made something like that in house anyway, wonder if there might be a way to figure out who they sourced it to and seek out that brand?

Not anyway I could tell and I read a lot about this on two Jeep forums.

[JRB]

I never really understood charging the book value, or a flat rate, for each repair. Seems like it inflates the price, because as I understand it, a good mechanic can usually do a repair much faster (I can even do some repairs faster than the book rate, and I'm an amateur). Is this correct?


That was the original intent of 'book time' - accommodate techs still learning, prevent the shop from paying a tech taking things slow for no reason, but allow a true expert to get ahead. How it works in practice is now very different. In all of my years working on flag hours aka 'book time' I hit 40 flag hours in a week for 40 hours worked exactly once, ever. Almost always, billed hours was 25-35hrs for every 40 hours I actually worked.

These days, on almost any modern vehicle it takes a true expert with the exact right tools and absolutely no parts delays to even match book time on a majority of jobs. The more complicated the job, the less likely the tech will make book on it. The 'gravy' jobs, aka the jobs that you can almost always complete under book time, are rarer and rarer across every brand.
This means that if you get charged, say, 50 hours labor to replace a full engine assembly - you can pretty much bet that the tech will have 65-80 hours in the actual job.
Older, simpler vehicles were much easier in all regards, including book time.


Overall, this is another reason I really hate dealers. I fully and completely understand that they want to make a profit, but sometimes in business there will be some losing jobs. If he bought 5 cars from the dealership and has been bringing them in over the last 20-25 years for routine things like oil changes, they've made a decent profit on all the other jobs. Not only give the tech a break, give him a reward for figuring it out (OK, I'm a little naive). A company like Ford that has been in business for a century should stand behind their product and fix the truck.

This is just my opinion and another reason I despise dealerships and go to my local garage. They specifically advertise that they will keep your older car running because it's cheaper than buying a new car. Two of my cars are 19 and 17 years old and they've never had problems getting parts. My old truck was 25 years old and they also kept that running for me until it rusted out.

Get Sig to work on 556IX. Or get Apple to repair an iPhone 4S. They don't because they don't have to. Just because they made it doesn't mean they have to work on it. This is no different with cars. It is a consumer product.
Once the warranty period is up, the OE makes little if anything on vehicles that last forever. The only benefit to making a vehicle that lasts forever, like a Toyota, is that it drives new vehicle sales by reputation. Toyota, Mercedes, and a few other makers are pretty good about enduring genuine parts for common engines/vehicles that were made by the hundreds of thousands. Others like Ford are not. But getting upset about a lack of parts or experienced service techs for a vehicle and engine that were both discontinued 17 years ago now -using the 2005 V10 Excursion as an example- is pretty silly.
I've been personally involved in trying to get Toyota to reproduce a lot of desirable original parts for the 1993-1998 Supra and Toyota doesn't give a tenth-inch of shit about parts for old Supras - they'll sell 100 Priuses in two weeks and make more money doing that and not have to do a damn thing... but that's a rant for another time.



...I would never take a car out of warranty to a dealership. By the time a vehicle is over 6 years old, the advantage of using the dealer is gone and a good independent shop has seen enough of them to keep current and do a good job.

Emphatically agreed - it is best to find a shop that is set up for and genuinely loves working on the vehicle you have. They'll have all the right tools, tricks, know which parts are the best from a list of suppliers, have faster & more skilled diagnostic abilities, etc. That makes all the difference.


Not what I’m wanting to hear as I have a ‘98 Cobra that may be needing some engine work. It seems real hard to find shops in the bay that know much about late model mustangs and I was hoping a SVT dealership would know what needs done.

Unfortunately, the majority of dealerships are a bunch of fucking idiots about higher end sports cars available within the brand. I worked on a LOT of SVT's, GT500's, even a couple of Ford GT's because the owners did not trust our local Ford dealer or their staff with their vehicles. I can't blame them.
The older it gets and the rarer it gets, the less and less likely anyone in that shop will know WTF they're doing on a car like that.

The '96 and '98 SVT Cobras were rare ponies to begin with and they're VERY rare now. Find the local Mustang people and find their favorite hole in the wall garage ran by a guy that eats, lives, and breathes Ford mod motors and SN95/New Edge Mustangs, and that will be the right place. I can almost guarantee he'll have a wait list months long.

In the meantime, I've had my head in the tight ass engine bay of several SN95 Cobras over the years, and I've damn near bought one on at least 3 different occasions. So feel free to drop me a PM if you have any pressing questions/issues I might be able to help you figure out!

[Palmguy]

Unfortunately, the majority of dealerships are a bunch of fucking idiots about higher end sports cars available within the brand. I worked on a LOT of SVT's, GT500's, even a couple of Ford GT's because the owners did not trust our local Ford dealer or their staff with their vehicles. I can't blame them.
The older it gets and the rarer it gets, the less and less likely anyone in that shop will know WTF they're doing on a car like that.

The '96 and '98 SVT Cobras were rare ponies to begin with and they're VERY rare now. Find the local Mustang people and find their favorite hole in the wall garage ran by a guy that eats, lives, and breathes Ford mod motors and SN95/New Edge Mustangs, and that will be the right place. I can almost guarantee he'll have a wait list months long.

In the meantime, I've had my head in the tight ass engine bay of several SN95 Cobras over the years, and I've damn near bought one on at least 3 different occasions. So feel free to drop me a PM if you have any pressing questions/issues I might be able to help you figure out!

Certainly true that there never were that many 96-98 Cobras running around....but Ford did make a trillion 4.6s (and 5.4s) so depending on the issue he might be better off than the OP. The top end is where that engine is pretty exclusive; the heads and intake manifold changed pretty substantially in '99. Totally agree on the advice, to add to that, check the Mustang forums and you'll probably find good guidance.

I've had more mod motors than I can immediately recall, and have some pretty good resources - my dad spent his life running a Ford service department and has a '96 Cobra. Feel free to reach out to me as well and I'll do what I can to help.

[Snapshot]

Not my lane in any way however: to at least get some idea what the MIL means you can get either code scanners or Forscan and an inexpensive DLC dongle, then do some research online. This may not even require opening the hood, the investment is pretty cheap especially for Forscan which is free.

If the diagnosis / code is complicated and expensive this may at least inform how to proceed with further efforts to find a place to repair it. There are a surprising number of videos & blogs out that that reference pretty specific DTC codes. Your vehicles are not that common but the V10 was also used in F250, F350 and possibly other Super Duty trucks.

Sucks that dealers and Ford itself are not interested in supporting the vehicles they were happy to sell you, but previous posts have pretty much covered that disgraceful situation.

[Welder]

I think the industry must have turned on it's ear since I was in.


It is also important to remember that a dealer can make the most money on warranty repairs as Ford pays the book rate for the job as well as for the part.

We *hated* warranty work because while yes, there was a flag time attached to it, it was almost impossible to match. Daimler-Chrysler figured warranty paid time starting with the vehicle in the bay, on the lift if necessary, parts in hand, and necessary tools already out. Multiple practice runs had already been made.

A tech of average experience could expect the job to take about twice the flag time. As technicians, a job where we could match warranty paid time was a day to celebrate. Recalls were figured the same way. For example, there was a limited recall on the automatic trans breather vent on the Dakota back around '00 or '01 which the repair process included unbolting a bunch of stuff including body mounts and jacking the cab up so you could reach the affected area. If I remember, it paid 1.6 hours which was nowhere close to how long it actually took to do. I figured out a way to reach around the back of the engine and do the job in 0.3. It was a rare case of getting one over on the factory. So I got all of those recalls that came in the door.


In all of my years working on flag hours aka 'book time' I hit 40 flag hours in a week for 40 hours worked exactly once, ever. Almost always, billed hours was 25-35hrs for every 40 hours I actually worked....


This means that if you get charged, say, 50 hours labor to replace a full engine assembly - you can pretty much bet that the tech will have 65-80 hours in the actual job.

50 HOURS?!?!?! Wow, things have certainly changed. An engine replacement used to be 17-25 hours. The most recent engine I've replaced was on a '13 Prius and even slowing way down and taking my time because it was for a personal friend, it still took less than 15. If I'd done another back-to-back I'm not sure it would've taken much over half that. No belts or engine-mounted accessories made it a breeze, and except for all of those coolant hoses going everywhere, it was literally cake.

When I was in, I could work 40 and figure on getting paid 45-48. The really good techs could go 50-60 in a 40-hour week. I would say I was average. But a 0.6 serpentine belt, 0.2 air filter, 0.2 wipers, 0.5 oil change, and 0.6 tire rotation / balance add up to 2.1 hours that even somebody like me could have done in about an hour flat. Drum brake jobs were another place to make bank.

Or the infamous Neon head gasket that paid I can't remember how many hours that one of our techs could do in like 20% of the time by cheating and just raising up the head enough to slide the old gasket out and a new one in. Needless to say some came back. But nobody ever made him do it the "right" way. So he did all of the Neon head gaskets since he could beat book time by the mostest. These days he owns his own shop LOL.

[willie]

My buddy owns his repair shop and 99% of his repairs are older vehicles. In some cases he has to find parts from junk yards. I learned that there are some parts carried on parts house books but not stocked because they are no longer made. He told me that dealer techs are clueless about older vehicles.

[RevolverRob]

Find a shop that services fleet box trucks and buses. Ford used the 2v Triton V10 in the E-450/550 cabs that are were used to build box trucks, ambulances, and buses until 2019.

If the dealer has a Fleet Sales guy, get ahold of him and ask him who does service on the fleet vehicles they sell.

The chassis is easier to service, sharing virtually all the parts with a 3/4-ton Super Duty.

To put it bluntly, you're dealing with a specialty vehicle, now, they haven't sold the Super Duty base the Excursion is built on since 2007 nor put the V10 in a retail vehicle since 2010. The service guys and manager on the retail side won't know what to do for you. The fleet guy can help.

And it's not just you. Once a vehicle is out of production for ~5 years, spare parts become far more difficult to find, even with an enthusiast vehicle, and not until the vehicles reach 25 years old does the market start to pick back up for them.

[Mark D]

There's a reason some folks call them "stealerships".

Another vote for a solid independent shop. Ask around, look on Yelp, talk to 'em and get a feel for their skillset.

[farscott]

I think the industry must have turned on it's ear since I was in.

We *hated* warranty work because while yes, there was a flag time attached to it, it was almost impossible to match. Daimler-Chrysler figured warranty paid time starting with the vehicle in the bay, on the lift if necessary, parts in hand, and necessary tools already out. Multiple practice runs had already been made.

Dealer makes the most profit, not the tech, on warranty work. What the dealer gets for the warranty repair is not what the tech gets.

[Hambo]

I would never take a car out of warranty to a dealership.

And then only for warranty work or recalls. I've never known of a dealer that would do the same work for the same price as a non-dealer shop.


Get Sig to work on 556IX. Or get Apple to repair an iPhone 4S. They don't because they don't have to. Just because they made it doesn't mean they have to work on it. This is no different with cars. It is a consumer product.
Once the warranty period is up, the OE makes little if anything on vehicles that last forever. The only benefit to making a vehicle that lasts forever, like a Toyota, is that it drives new vehicle sales by reputation. Toyota, Mercedes, and a few other makers are pretty good about enduring genuine parts for common engines/vehicles that were made by the hundreds of thousands.

If someone wants long term support, they need to look at that before they buy. As an example, Toyota has been dropping 2.7L 4 cylinders in cars/trucks for decades, so they'll be able to work on them. Another option is a vehicle for which you can buy aftermarket parts anywhere, such as a Jeep CJ. If you buy a unicorn, you start with an enthusiast car.

[JRB]

I think the industry must have turned on it's ear since I was in.

...

50 HOURS?!?!?! Wow, things have certainly changed....

I never worked for Dodge but I heard about the stories about 'on the lift, part in hand, everything out and ready, and still not being able to match book time'. Like that breather vent workaround you figured out, mastering those gravy jobs is everything. One of the techs that worked under me figured out a Ford door hinge recall in a similar way when he was at Ford. It was a 2.2hr job on warranty work and he figured out a trick to getting it done in about 1hr so he got every one that came into the shop.

Sure, as recently as 2010-2012ish it was pretty easy to get 45-55 book hours in a work week. But that isn't really the case anymore with most makes. I know some guys at Rich Ford and a few other big domestic dealerships that are eeking by with that, but basically everyone I knew still at a Dodge or import dealership, with the notable exception of Lexus, is taking a bath on book time.

50 hours is an extreme example, but many modern cars, especially German cars, engine R&R's are often in the 30-50 hour range depending on the model. With all of the various components that have to be fitted and software stuff that can go wrong with making it all work again, it often takes longer for the tech. I can't remember which BMW M model it was but a buddy of mine at our local BMW dealership took a bath on a 43-hour engine R&R for one of those that took him almost two full weeks to do, delays on parts not included.

Thankfully the bulk of my career was working on things like Vettes, Mustangs, etc and there's fast easy ways to do almost everything on those cars, though I can't speak on the C8 since that came after my workshop days.


And then only for warranty work or recalls. I've never known of a dealer that would do the same work for the same price as a non-dealer shop.



If someone wants long term support, they need to look at that before they buy. As an example, Toyota has been dropping 2.7L 4 cylinders in cars/trucks for decades, so they'll be able to work on them. Another option is a vehicle for which you can buy aftermarket parts anywhere, such as a Jeep CJ. If you buy a unicorn, you start with an enthusiast car.

Important to note that while lots of Toyota trucks were built with 2.7L 4 cylinders, the 2RZ-FE 2.7L found in all our old US spec Tacomas and such is long gone, and the 2.7L currently used in the world market Hilux and other applications is a totally different engine, the 2TR-FE.

The biggest issue these days isn't really the hard parts like engine components, but sensors/electronics/PCM/ECU issues. What seems to kill 99% of vehicles these days is a persistent, code-throwing sensor or electronic issue with the emissions or safety systems that prevents it from passing an inspection. The vehicle almost always still runs just fine, it's just a money pit trying to get (or keep) a license plate on it so the owners/customers take the path of least resistance and buy a newer one without any problems.

[fixer]

FORD DEALERS LACK OF SERVICE ON OLDER VEHICLES ?

Since 1997 I have been a customer of the same Ford Dealership in Lugoff SC. When Mr. Redfearn owned it it was a pleasure to deal with. Later management was not as good.

Purchases were:
1997 F350 4x4 crew cab,
2000 Excursion V10 4x4,
2005 Excursion V10 4x4,
2004 Expedition 4x4.
2003 Mustang Cobra.

I still have the Excursions and Expedition. I am very happy with the Excursion V10 4x4s.

Lugoff Ford did 95% of the service on these vehicles.


THE PROBLEM
I had scheduled service on my 2005 Excursion V10 4x4 for: why was the engine service light coming on, an oil/filter change and to see what else it might need.

Jeff from service did not return my call back to his original call so I called him again.
Jeff told me that they were willing to do the oil/filter change but they would not diagnose or repair why the service engine light was coming on.
I find this to be inexcusable.

Dealer used to point to older vehicles that were still in service with pride and proof of the quality of the vehicles. Evidently Lugoff Ford is no longer interested in servicing older vehicles past the oil and filter change level.

I am not sure if this lack of supporting older vehicles is just Lugoff Ford or is company wide.
———
I will use an independent shop for repairs.

I am less likely to want another Ford after this. I just want to keep what I have in good shape.

Any thoughts ?

That is bs.

When I was a tech at a Ford dealer we still fixed trucks with carburetors and points ( and distributors).

And we also worked on all makes and models when it was slow.

[1slow]

Guys thanks.

I got spoiled when Redfearn owned the Ford dealership. Excursion is currently at an independent shop.

There is also a good forum for Ford Excursions and trucks.

My 2005 EX has 155K miles and my 2000 has 190K miles. I like the trucks.

[Mark D]

Maybe one of the dealership techs can answer a couple questions.

Assuming everything at a dealership is done on a book rate, why do they have discretion to discount certain service items if I negotiate with them? And how does my discount effect the rate for the tech?

[Welder]

Maybe one of the dealership techs can answer a couple questions.

Assuming everything at a dealership is done on a book rate, why do they have discretion to discount certain service items if I negotiate with them? And how does my discount effect the rate for the tech?

There are different pricing structures for different customer types, so one answer would be that they're reducing shop rate to a fleet rate or something similar. Unless things have changed, the tech is going to get paid his hourly rate at the flag rate for that job regardless of what deal the shop might have made.

There also used to be a line in the code where the service writer could just enter a misc charge, so effectively the price could be whatever they wanted.

For non-brand vehicles or for certain tough diagnostic situations, the dealership shop can also choose to charge straight time OR pay the tech extra hours which are not billed to the customer.