Current state of the 1911 industry?

[MandoWookie]

Out of curiosity, what is the current state of the 1911 industry?
Which companies are making the best examples in their price range?
Are Kimbers still pretty looking razor blades shaped into 1911 form?
Are the Ruger SR1911s a good option in the $700 to $900 dollar range?
Is 9mm still full of alchemy and witchcraft to work in the platform, or has it been figured out?
If someone was looking into buying a 1911 in the current year, what would be the recommendation, relative to budget, experience, and intended use?

[Gumby]

Popping some corn for this thread😎

[JAD]

I have not gone wrong buying and recommending Dan Wessons to folks looking for a don’t fuck with it 1911. If you’re willing to invest in something prettier I still think the best look is an S70 and a full house build. If you want to spend less than DW money I don’t have suggestions. And I, at least, am over 9mm 1911s. The platform works real good in .45, .45 is nicer to reload, and the extra round isn’t worth the squeeze to me.

[Rmiked]

I was in your shoes for the last year. I just bought my first 1911. Got a Dan Wesson Specialist in 10mm. I think they have it figured out. It is a tight pistol but I believe it is broken in after 150 rounds but will continue to follow factory recommendations. It is not cheap at $1850. But it has every feature you could want and is an amazing pistol. The features I like are front and back strap checkering, beveled mag well, front and rear cocking serrations, tritium “straight 8” type night sights, ambi safety, accessory rail, aggressive VZ grips, and a serrated rib on top of slide. It is really a deluxe pistol.

[MandoWookie]

I have not gone wrong buying and recommending Dan Wessons to folks looking for a don’t fuck with it 1911. If you’re willing to invest in something prettier I still think the best look is an S70 and a full house build. If you want to spend less than DW money I don’t have suggestions. And I, at least, am over 9mm 1911s. The platform works real good in .45, .45 is nicer to reload, and the extra round isn’t worth the squeeze to me.

Going into 2020, my goal had been to purchase a 1911 and a Garand.
Then events overtook my ambitions, and that goal had to be sidelined.
I had settled on a Dan Wesson A2 as my ideal, pretty much being exactly what I think I want for features while retaining the classic look. And a Fulton Armory M1 in .308 to complement it, or vice versa. Neither would have any practical purpose beyond range use and satisfaction of ownership, but as I have a brace of Glocks for actual carry and practice pure utility is covered.
Come the new year, and I find the A2 has been discontinued, and Fulton has suspended taking orders for the foreseeable future, time to restart evaluation of the options out there. The long process of research and saving begins anew.

[MandoWookie]

I was in your shoes for the last year. I just bought my first 1911. Got a Dan Wesson Specialist in 10mm. I think they have it figured out. It is a tight pistol but I believe it is broken in after 150 rounds but will continue to follow factory recommendations. It is not cheap at $1850. But it has every feature you could want and is an amazing pistol. The features I like are front and back strap checkering, beveled mag well, front and rear cocking serrations, tritium “straight 8” type night sights, ambi safety, accessory rail, aggressive VZ grips, and a serrated rib on top of slide. It is really a deluxe pistol.

The Centimeter has been a cartridge that has always spoke to me, but I can never figure out what its saying. I just cannot have it and 1911 fit together in my head. I don't know why.

[KevH]

There are a few good threads (one extremely long...here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36518-The-Art-and-Science-of-Keeping-Your-1911-Running) that are full of good info.

Your question is very open ended and leads to subjective responses. What is the gun going to be used for?

After a couple decades of dealing with police armorer issues with 1911's of various qualities I've formed some pretty strong opinions. Others may feel differently.

If you want a 1911 to take to the range now and then and play with then a Kimber, Springfield, Ruger or one of the myriad of other quality manufacturers is fine. This is your $600 to $900 guns.

Normal patrol duty use where the guy shoots it five or six times a year max and carries it everyday? Springfield TRP or LB Operator guns are fine, so is the Dan Wesson range, especially with a little massaging. The $1200 to $1500 are fine here.

For SWAT guys or firearms staff that shoot at least every couple weeks, blow through at least 500 rounds a month, and carry the gun on duty...you either need at least a Wilson quality gun or a gun that has been completely overhauled with quality parts and fit by someone that knows what they're doing. It's pay-to-play so you are in the $3k plus range.

It's easy to make a 45 ACP gun run because that's what everyone knows how to do and what the modern 1911 was meant to run with.

9mm can be finicky, but can be made to work just fine.

I see less and less cops wanting to carry the 1911 these days. 1911's were the shiz about 10 to 20 years ago. Plastic guns rule the day now.

[TC215]

Normal patrol duty use where the guy shoots it five or six times a year and carries it everyday? Springfield TRP or LB Operator guns are fine, so is the Dan Wesson range, especially with a little massaging. The $1200 to $1500 are fine here.

For SWAT guys or firearms staff that shoot at least every couple weeks, blow through at least 500 rounds a month, and carry the gun on duty...you either need at least a Wilson quality gun or a gun that has been completely overhauled with quality parts and fit by someone that knows what they're doing. It's pay-to-play so you are in the $3k plus range.

Dan Wesson worked just fine for me for SWAT/firearms instructor duty. I will say, though, I’m not necessarily crazy about the direction the company is headed. I’m sure they still make good guns though.

There’s been several of us here that have had serious issues with Wilson Combat guns the last few years. If I was going to order one right now, Alchemy would get my money, or maybe Ed Brown.

Only Springfield I’d consider carrying on duty would be a Pro. I know of teams using the TRP that have issues keeping them running.

[MandoWookie]

There are a few good threads (one extremely long...here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36518-The-Art-and-Science-of-Keeping-Your-1911-Running) that are full of good info.

Your question is very open ended and leads to subjective responses. What is the gun going to be used for?

After a couple decades of dealing with police armorer issues with 1911's of various qualities I've formed some pretty strong opinions.

If you want a 1911 to take to the range now and then and play with then a Kimber, Springfield, or one of the myriad of other quality manufacturers is fine. This is your $600 to $900 guns.

Normal patrol duty use where the guy shoots it five or six times a year and carries it everyday? Springfield TRP or LB Operator guns are fine, so is the Dan Wesson range, especially with a little massaging. The $1200 to $1500 are fine here.

For SWAT guys or firearms staff that shoot at least every couple weeks, blow through at least 500 rounds a month, and carry the gun on duty...you either need at least a Wilson quality gun or a gun that has been completely overhauled with quality parts and fit by someone that knows what they're doing. It's pay-to-play so you are in the $3k plus range.

It's easy to make a 45 ACP gun run because that's what everyone knows how to do and what the modern 1911 was meant to run with.

9mm can be finicky, but can be made to work.

I see less and less cops wanting to carry the 1911 these days. 1911's were the shiz about 10 years ago. Plastic guns rule the day now.

My question is deliberately open ended, because my intention was to spark discussion and invite a broad range of perspectives on the industry.

My own experience is limited, and my use is definitely in that range toy range.
But I know my limited firing time with rentals and friends 1911s might be limiting my perspective, so having a broad range of opinions could help me decide better where on the scale I want to direct my efforts.

[MandoWookie]

Dan Wesson worked just fine for me for SWAT/firearms instructor duty. I will say, though, I’m not necessarily crazy about the direction the company is headed. I’m sure they still make good guns though.

There’s been several of us here that have had serious issues with Wilson Combat guns the last few years. If I was going to order one right now, Alchemy would get my money, or maybe Ed Brown.

Only Springfield I’d consider carrying on duty would be a Pro. I know of teams using the TRP that have issues keeping them running.

This is why I thought it worthwhile to start a new thread and not just rely on older discussions. Company's can shift rapidly in reputation in a short time, especially after the large upheavals in the industry that has occurred over the last year.

[Elwin]

Sample size of one etc., but my Ed Brown EVO is a 9mm that runs damn well so far, and it’s a design that took a lot of queues from what Wilson has done to make 9mm guns work (especially the EDC9 and X9 series). It’s also a little softer on the wallet than comparable guns, hovering at around 2k instead of 3 or 4.

That’s all I’ve got to add for this thread, though I’ll be reading plenty.

[TC215]

Only Springfield I’d consider carrying on duty would be a Pro. I know of teams using the TRP that have issues keeping them running.

To be fair on this, though, I know of more than one FBI team that had trouble keeping the Pro’s running.

Which is just another reminder that 1911’s are not the best gun for an issued duty pistol.

[MandoWookie]

Dan Wesson worked just fine for me for SWAT/firearms instructor duty. I will say, though, I’m not necessarily crazy about the direction the company is headed. I’m sure they still make good guns though.
.


Could you elaborate on this? What is the direction you feel they are going, relative to your opinion of where they were?

[TC215]

Could you elaborate on this? What is the direction you feel they are going, relative to your opinion of where they were?

Some of it is cosmetic— I prefer the look of some of the older models. I believe they’ve also changed vendors for frames/slides.

They lost several good ‘smiths/employees in NY (not sure if that was due to the strict lockdown rules or what), and now all DW warranty work is being handles by a CZ ‘smith in Kansas City, who was allegedly recently trained to work on 1911’s (I have heard good things about him, though).

[KevH]

Dan Wesson worked just fine for me for SWAT/firearms instructor duty. I will say, though, I’m not necessarily crazy about the direction the company is headed. I’m sure they still make good guns though.

There’s been several of us here that have had serious issues with Wilson Combat guns the last few years. If I was going to order one right now, Alchemy would get my money, or maybe Ed Brown.

Only Springfield I’d consider carrying on duty would be a Pro. I know of teams using the TRP that have issues keeping them running.

My experience with Ed Brown has been pretty mixed. We've had at least three guys that have had to send their gun back multiple times. I've heard it's getting better, but in the past their customer service, to be quite blunt, sucked.

I've seen some of the folks on here complain about Wilson guns. We had nearly twenty running at one time (would have been around 2010). They all seemed to work and when there was an issue Wilson took care of it. I ordered an aluminum framed 5" 9mm CQB for myself about six months ago. Once it's here I'll let you all know how it runs. If it sucks, I'll let you know that too.

I think we've had to replace or refit something (plunger tube, extractor, etc) on just about every sub-$2000 1911 we have in service. From a starting point I've been pretty happy with the TRP, the MC Operator and the LB Operator.

Any team that collectively purchases 1911's is going to have problems, no matter who the manufacturer is, for a variety of reasons. Keeping on top of a fleet of 1911's to keep them running is a time intensive job...especially when they're issued to people that can't maintain the gun themselves. Glocks or M&P's is a piece of cake. I'm not sorry at all that younger guys have been gravitating to polymer guns since it's made my job much easier.

I used to own a Springfield Professional. It was ok, but I don't think they're the end all be all like I once did. They were a steal when they were $1950 LE price (that's what I paid for mine), but you were stuck with super sharp 20 LPI checkering, no undercut, and a ridiculously tight barrel bushing. With the price they're going for now I think there are probably better options out there than when the FBI spec'ed it nearly 25 years ago.

[RevolverRob]

The questions here have to be redirected into the correct context.

1) What is the intended use of the gun in question?
2) What is the budget for the intended gun?

For Range Use: Any of them.

For Carry/Duty: Dan Wesson (1-2k), Springfield Pro (2-3k), Alchemy (3k+)

But if it were me - I'd wait another 6-12 months for the new CZolts to start showing up and see how the quality on them is. I'm hoping the acquisition if Colt by CZ results in better QC from Colt. Leveling them back up in the game.

[MandoWookie]

What is the consensus on the Colt Competition 1911s I have been seeing locally for around $900? Or current Colt production in general?

[MandoWookie]

The questions here have to be redirected into the correct context.

1) What is the intended use of the gun in question?
2) What is the budget for the intended gun?

For Range Use: Any of them.

For Carry/Duty: Dan Wesson (1-2k), Springfield Pro (2-3k), Alchemy (3k+)

But if it were me - I'd wait another 6-12 months for the new CZolts to start showing up and see how the quality on them is. I'm hoping the acquisition if Colt by CZ results in better QC from Colt. Leveling them back up in the game.

Wait, did CZ actually purchase Colt? I though that was just speculation that they could?
And yes I will definitely not be purchasing anything for at least the next 6 months.
Speculative upper budget is in the $1500 range, but honestly, anything above $900 gets progressively harder to sell myself on.

As I am not LE, duty use isn't my concern, but it might be for others.

[TC215]

My experience with Ed Brown has been pretty mixed. We've had at least three guys that have had to send their gun back multiple times. I've heard it's getting better, but in the past their customer service, to be quite blunt, sucked.

I've seen some of the folks on here complain about Wilson guns. We had nearly twenty running at one time (would have been around 2010). They all seemed to work and when there was an issue Wilson took care of it. I ordered an aluminum framed 5" 9mm CQB for myself about six months ago. Once it's here I'll let you all know how it runs. If it sucks, I'll let you know that too.

I think we've had to replace or refit something (plunger tube, extractor, etc) on just about every sub-$2000 1911 we have in service. From a starting point I've been pretty happy with the TRP, the MC Operator and the LB Operator.

Any team that collectively purchases 1911's is going to have problems, no matter who the manufacturer is, for a variety of reasons. Keeping on top of a fleet of 1911's to keep them running is a time intensive job...especially when they're issued to people that can't maintain the gun themselves. Glocks or M&P's is a piece of cake. I'm not sorry at all that younger guys have been gravitating to polymer guns since it's made my job much easier.

I used to own a Springfield Professional. It was ok, but I don't think they're the end all be all like I once did. They were a steal when they were $1950 LE price (that's what I paid for mine), but you were stuck with super sharp 20 LPI checkering, no undercut, and a ridiculously tight barrel bushing. With the price they're going for now I think there are probably better options out there than when the FBI spec'ed it nearly 25 years ago.


I’ve just had one Ed Brown (4.25”, bobtail) and it was very nice and ran great (just one on a long list of guns I shouldn’t have sold). I used their customer service to have some custom work done. Service was good, but that was when Justin was there— not sure how it is now.

Of my five Wilsons, 3 have had issues (all were purchased 2016 or after). Two had to go back to the factory, one had to go back twice. Pit had some serious issues as well. I’d buy another Wilson, probably, but they wouldn’t be my first choice.

The SWAT team I was on when I was a local issued Sig 1911’s. They ran surprisingly well (I still wasn’t a fan, and carried a personal DW), and most of the problems were stupid stuff— magazine issues, loose magwells, sights falling off, etc.

I’ve always been of the opinion that the Pro is a good $2200-$2400 1911. No way I’d pay $3000+ for one. I sold mine and kept my DW Specialist.

I was a die hard 1911 guy for a long time, and have owned 40+ over the years. I’m down to one now. I have to carry Glocks at my current agency. They don’t have a soul like a good 1911, but they get the job done for a lot less money, and I have less to worry about.

[Borderland]

I had four 1911's until a few months ago. I'm down to two now and only one gets used. So I'm not real nuts about them like I used to be. I carry something else and the one I shoot is a target pistol/range toy. There is nothing I enjoy shooting more than a 1911 and I will probably have one or two around for a long time. 45 ACP is my favorite pistol cartridge.

I wouldn't have a clue about buying anything new. My Gold Cup has always delivered. I've had it for about 10 years and never had an issue with it. I probably got one built on Wednesday.

[RevolverRob]

Wait, did CZ actually purchase Colt? I though that was just speculation that they could?
And yes I will definitely not be purchasing anything for at least the next 6 months.
Speculative upper budget is in the $1500 range, but honestly, anything above $900 gets progressively harder to sell myself on.

As I am not LE, duty use isn't my concern, but it might be for others.

Yes: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/02/15/cz-buys-colt/

The deal was announced in February, but I believe wasn't fully closed then. Figure another 6-8 months before we see "CZolts". CZ says they won't be changing much at Colt. I believe that'll last for a bit, they'll be focused on Colt Canada and trying to procure the Canadian pistol contract. But the Czechs aren't likely to be really content to sit around without doing some audits of processes and investigation. We'll see what happens as things change, and they will change, in the near future.

[rob_s]

This is why I thought it worthwhile to start a new thread and not just rely on older discussions.

Personally I think it’s a great idea for a thread.

Not everything has to be a “what should I buy” thread, and if folks can’t see it any other way because they’re so fixated on offering up advice, they should skip the thread IMO.

Whatever happened to discussion forums being about... discussions?

On the topic of the thread, the 1911 market seems... odd to me these days. I’ve been watching the market for 35+ years and dipping in and out of it for 25-ish.

With my limited knowledge of how things are today, I’d also probably buy a Dan Wesson based on internet lore, not personal ownership.

I still dream about owning a 5” .45 with light rail for house, 4.25” aluminum frame .45 for carry, and 5” 9mm without rail for matches. All with otherwise identical (sights, levers, gription, etc.) Of course, then I’d want duplicates of each. With spare parts, mags, ammo, and holsters That should all cost just about....

71548

[HCM]

The Centimeter has been a cartridge that has always spoke to me, but I can never figure out what its saying. I just cannot have it and 1911 fit together in my head. I don't know why.

I know you are referring to 10mm here but the reason calling it “The Centimeter” is not common is the Centimeter was the name of a cut down 10mm wildcat round that later became the 40 S&W.

[MandoWookie]

I know you are referring to 10mm here but the reason calling it “The Centimeter” is not common is the Centimeter was the name of a cut down 10mm wildcat round that later became the 40 S&W.

Oh, I wasn't aware. I think I recall first seeing centimeter used to describe the 10mm was a Jeff Cooper article about the cartridge, but I could be mistaken. It may very well have actually been referencing that wildcat and I just missed it.

[Bergeron]

I am no way proposing that the 10mm is a better choice, particularly for self-defense, over 9mm or .45 in a 1911. I have owned four over the years, and the one I still have left is a gun I'm not getting rid of.

I think 10mm makes sense if you're looking for something that can shoot a wide variety of loads, and are willing to handload. With access to bullets from 135 to 200 grains, you can do light Steel Challenge/plinking, medium self-defense, and heavy bowling pins/medium game hunting. You won't have the too short OAL problems of 9mm, and you get more capacity than .45. My next 1911 is still going to be a .45, however.

I'd really like to try a new Colt once CZ is firmly in the saddle. I have a Nighthawk Custom IOS slide, and I think it's super clever for both red dots and for shooting a variety of loads from a fixed sight gun. Everything else that I have is gunsmith-touched, and it's a real trick to find a good smith before their wait times go into years, and their prices become that of decent used cars.

[MandoWookie]

I am no way proposing that the 10mm is a better choice, particularly for self-defense, over 9mm or .45 in a 1911. I have owned four over the years, and the one I still have left is a gun I'm not getting rid of.

I think 10mm makes sense if you're looking for something that can shoot a wide variety of loads, and are willing to handload. With access to bullets from 135 to 200 grains, you can do light Steel Challenge/plinking, medium self-defense, and heavy bowling pins/medium game hunting. You won't have the too short OAL problems of 9mm, and you get more capacity than .45. My next 1911 is still going to be a .45, however.


That theoretical versatility is actually what I think turns me off of 10mm.
If I need that capability, I will go to a revolver, where it's as simple as drop in cylinder and pull trigger. With an autoloader once you move out of the factory options, it seems you have to do a lot of fiddling to set up the gun to work with the higher end loads. At least that's my recollection of what's guys like GJM found out according to his experiences with it.

[Bergeron]

Well, yeah. I also prefer a lower high end on 10mm than most people. I don't want to swap out more than a recoil spring, so once you choose your firing pin stop and mainspring, there is an envelope that you will be staying inside of.

[OlongJohnson]

For SWAT guys or firearms staff that shoot at least every couple weeks, blow through at least 500 rounds a month, and carry the gun on duty...you either need at least a Wilson quality gun or a gun that has been completely overhauled with quality parts and fit by someone that knows what they're doing. It's pay-to-play so you are in the $3k plus range.

Which brings us back to perspective on why a Manurhin might not be unreasonably priced.

[RevolverRob]

Which brings us back to perspective on why a Manurhin might not be unreasonably priced.

Bruh, my $500 Glock will last 100,000 rounds...Unless I crack a breech face first.

Of course as we have talked about here a time or two. The Catch-22 of trying to buy and break a 100k round capable gun is that you spend ~10x on ammo than you do the gun if the gun costs 3-grand.

[Robinson]

What is the consensus on the Colt Competition 1911s I have been seeing locally for around $900? Or current Colt production in general?

The Competition model is a solid gun for the money if you happen to get a good one. I've had great luck with Colts in 45 and 38 Super. But the sad truth is that Colt's quality control could be better. They generally make good guns but their quality seems inconsistent.

Now on the other hand the Colt Custom Shop is making terrific guns. Their current models are hand built and fitted from all tool steel and bar stock parts. But Custom Shop guns cost significantly more than their production line guns.

[Mark D]

Any input on Les Baer?

[KevH]

Any input on Les Baer?

Meh. Their custom service has never been known as being stellar. You get built the gun Les thinks you should have and if you disagree with him or your gun doesn't work generally it must be your fault. Their frame is a slightly odd dimension compared to Colt and what has become standard in the 1911 circles and they way they hard fit their barrels often causes the barrel feet to crack or chip off.

A really good 1911 smith once told me when I asked him about Baer, "They make a decent base gun."

[Gumby]

Any input on Les Baer?

Mark, if you are in Orange County, you can shoot my Baer, then decide.

[Mark D]

Mark, if you are in Orange County, you can shoot my Baer, then decide.

I'm a bit north of you, but I'll ping you if I get down to OC. Thanks, that's a generous offer!

[OlongJohnson]

Bruh, my $500 Glock will last 100,000 rounds...Unless I crack a breech face first.

Yeah, but it will still be a Glock. There's the one in the museum that went to 348k, if I remember right, before structural failure.

Then there's the 290,xxx-round USP .45 that was a Federal (?) ammo test gun.

And someone else on this site once posted claiming to have bought a USP 9mm ammo company test gun with a documented 485k rounds through it, and had taken it the rest of the way past half a million. And it was still going strong.

I think they're the champions of semi-auto handgun longevity.

But the "170k of .357 and we got tired of counting so we stopped" test with the Manurhin isn't shabby.

[CSW]

I have owned 4 Springfields:
A loaded full size stainless. 45acp.
A Lightweight Champion. 45acp.

Both ran great for $500-900 guns.

Now I own 2 of the Range Officer series, both Champions. [Commander sized, 4" bbl.] Both are 9mm.
The original RO was purchased in '17, and I had a local smith add an ambi safety because of my lefty-ness. It has run flawless in the time I have owned it. Zero malfunctions, but the Springer mags, well, they suck. Ed Brown 9 round mags run perfect.
The second RO is the Elite in the Champion size. It too has been flawless, in the rounds I put thru it. It has become my EDC.

The original RO has the parkerized finish, which is very durable, the Elite has the Birdsong Black-T, which while durable, is already showing holster wear around the muzzle from carry in the Tenicor Certum. Certainly nothing to be worried about.

I looked into the DW series, as well as thinking about just going with 1 higher end 1911, such as Wilson or Alchemy. So far, the RO's have been great. It's a shame that Springfield eliminated everything in the Elite series except for the 10mm, because it's alot of gun for the money spent.

There's a boatload of info over on https://www.1911addicts.com/, worth looking there as well.

[Bucky]

Any input on Les Baer?


Meh. Their custom service has never been known as being stellar. You get built the gun Les thinks you should have and if you disagree with him or your gun doesn't work generally it must be your fault. Their frame is a slightly odd dimension compared to Colt and what has become standard in the 1911 circles and they way they hard fit their barrels often causes the barrel feet to crack or chip off.

A really good 1911 smith once told me when I asked him about Baer, "They make a decent base gun."

I can affirm what Kev said 100%. My trigger guard on mine was way oversized and wouldn’t fit my holsters. I had a friend mill mine to be what other 1911s were. Also, mine is a 9mm (game gun only). The follower was jumping the slide stop and the mag would stick in the gun. Measuring the slide stop, it matched a .45 slide stop. My conversation with Les boiled down to:

1. You have the correct slide stop.
2. You have to use the one mag that came with the gun (despite me telling him the problem DID occur with his magazine).
3. The gun works with the mag it came with an You’re (me) wrong.
4. You need to bend the follower tab out on other mags to engage the slide stop (despite most premium mags no longer use this style follower).

After the call, I ordered a Wilson 9 mm slide stop and problem solved.

[rob_s]

How about Ed Brown?

I had a Special Forces model years ago. I believe it was their answer to the then-still-newish Wilson CQB?
https://www.edbrown.com/product/bo-18-special-forces/

IIRC it was also, like the CQB, about $1k less at that time…

[Rmiked]

I recently purchased a DW Specialist vs the WC ACP. Being my first 1911 (and likely only 1911) I wanted to have no regrets. I really respect Wilson Combat and have upgraded my Beretta 92A1 with many high quality steel parts (hammer, trigger, guide rod, springs, etc). This forum had great recommendations about DW. I started out wanting to spend $1000 but wound up spending $1850 on Specialist (10mm). When I was comparing the WC ACP feature for feature here is what I noticed. The Specialist had these features that were absent on the ACP: ambi safety, much better beveled mag well, front cocking serrations on slide, machined grooves rib top of slide, tritium night sights. And I prefer a stainless finish for appearance and elimination of finish wearing off, which is not available on ACP.

Now I am assuming of course that the DW is nearly as good as the WC, which may not be true. But I have read about some problems with WC pistols. I really wanted to get a WC but at the end of the day, I would have spent $2600 (vs $1850) for a pistol I would not have liked as much (assuming no problems with DW). I originally was looking at 9mm in both but decided I wanted a 10mm to have deer hunt option. The WC ACP is not available in 10mm but that is not the point I wanted to make.

In summary I guess the WC ACP is considered a “custom quality” pistol and the Dan Wesson is considered a “semi custom” pistol and that is the accepted difference in price. Or the Wilson products are considered higher quality across the board? I understand the test target is included with Wilson pistols and that is impressive as to their quality control before release. However some have still reported issues. Both companies have reputations to resolve issues that will inevitably arise with a few pistols. The advice I got here on Pistol Forum is what guided me to a Dan Wesson vs less expensive alternatives. I really appreciate the all steel parts aspect of DW as well. This post has to do with “how to decide when to spend more $$”, not less. The overwhelming feedback I read is that there are diminishing returns on spending more than a DW costs. For guys where money is no object and they just want a full custom experience, I get it but that’s not me, now.

[farscott]

Any input on Les Baer?

Avoid the Comanche and Stinger guns unless you plan on sending the NIB gun to a good smith as Baer uses Government Model frame geometry, not Commander. The result is less slide travel and an increase in stoppages. The frame bridge can be machined to Government Model specs by a good smith, but that necessitates a refinish. If you buy one, get it used so someone else takes the depreciation hit, and you are not tempted to use the Baer warranty.

The five-inch guns tend to run once the round count exceeds 1,000. The barrel fit is very hard and can result in barrel springing or broken lugs. The frames and slides are nice, the barrel is a private-labeled unit from Fred Kart, and the small parts are not the best. The bluing is thin but does protect the metal.

I must admit to liking the Baer heavyweight frames as the extra weight in the dustcover reduces muzzle flip while the recoil system is GI standard. Now that there are holsters for full-length rails, the Baer Monolith Heavyweight can be holstered. Not sure I would do so as the extra weight on the hip might be noticeable, but it is nice to have the option.

[David S.]

Joe Chambers at Chambers Customs has recently started doing "mathematical reviews" of single stack and double stack 1911s on his Patreon channel "1911 University." In his reviews, he compares a several measurements and tolerances to what he uses on his builds. For instance slide to frame fit, bushing fit, vertical impact surface, barrel leg fit, extractor, etc.

I'll be keeping an eye on these for a while before I dive into the 1911 world. He's done a couple reviews of $3k+ custom shop guns with an unimpressive fit and drop-in or barely massaged parts that you'd expect in a $1k to $1500 semi custom. He's quick to point out that these are reviews of single guns, so it's anecdotal and not indicative of the company or line as a whole.

A couple examples that he put on his public YT page:


https://youtu.be/cHJOxQcjrgw

One of his own guns that came back after 30k rounds.

https://youtu.be/QtJwq7FnLHQ

If you want another deep dive, I suggest the P&S Two World Wars episode. (It's also available in podcast form. I don't think you loose much by not watching it)


https://youtu.be/O_NrooMVMms

I definitely recall they like the Ruger in the $1000 price point and Dan Wesson in the sub $2000. I'm seem to recall Nighthawk was preferred in the $3000 point and, of course, Chambers at the $4k+ range.

[rob_s]

One let peeve of mine in the 1911 world has been the way the word “custom” gets misused.

If the pistol you buy has a model name, it’s not “custom” IMO. It may be “hand fit” or “high end production” or whatever but it ain’t custom.

[JAD]

In summary I guess the WC ACP is considered a “custom quality” pistol and the Dan Wesson is considered a “semi custom” pistol and that is the accepted difference in price. Or the Wilson products are considered higher quality across the board?.

I have both and for example just ran a CQB Commander and a DW CCO side by side at Gunsite.

DW guns are good to go. Expect few problems (e.g., both of the 4” guns I’ve gotten from them shot high, the thumb safety on the earlier one needed some bevel added to the shield, etc) but they run and are well built. The $700 extra for a DW versus a Range Officer or Ruger gets you an appreciable difference in build quality and out of the gate reliability and that makes it an easy recommend for a person who wants to spend the minimum amount of money without having to seriously monkey with the gun.

Wilsons are not custom. You can’t get the gun you want unless it’s exactly how they make it, and the fit comparison between a Wilson and a Garthwaite, Morrison, or Burton pistol is not fair. They’re exceptionally nice factory guns. I have no problem with them charging 2x DW, but besides a tangible difference in fit I don’t think you get a lot of concrete benefits. I still spend a lot of time on their web site.

Custom pistols are another level, and another 2x in price for a good example. They are also worth it. I have a couple and one on the way. I enjoy them that much more. Again you won’t get much in the way of tangible benefits — except that the gun will be as well built as is humanly possible, and it will be exactly precisely your gun.

[TC215]

Any input on Les Baer?

Neither one of my Baers ran, and Les is an absolute dickhead.

[TC215]

How about Ed Brown?

I had a Special Forces model years ago. I believe it was their answer to the then-still-newish Wilson CQB?
https://www.edbrown.com/product/bo-18-special-forces/

IIRC it was also, like the CQB, about $1k less at that time…

I really liked the one Ed Brown I’ve had. Now they’ve gone from making fairly traditional-looking 1911’s to guns with the crazy cuts in the slides. I have no idea if the quality now is as good as the older guns.

One of the biggest Ed Brown dealers in the country told me to steer clear of their guns in 9mm (this was before their new EVO 9mm).

[HCM]

Any input on Les Baer?

If you want one, buy used and stick to 5” guns.

I’ve owned three of them, a Comanche and two 5” guns. Still have the two 5” guns however all 3 are/were older guns made in the 90s. Both of my 5” guns run well.

The current production guns do not seem as well fitted and have sharp edges not found on the older guns. The grip on the LB frames are slightly larger from to back. For my hands that is a good thing but YMMV. Some makers of fancy grips offer “Baer width” grips. You can install any 1911 grips but they appear undersized on the Baer. It drives the people who clock grip screws crazy.

I’ll echo the advice to avoid the Comanche and Stinger models due to the reduced slide travel resulting from the use of cut down Government frames.

Les Bears used to be the “sweet spot” of a quality gun at a more reasonable price than Wilson/Nighthawk. Baer has raised prices to Wilson/Nighthawk levels even as quality has declined.

Dan Wesson took over that “sweet spot” in the last 10 years. We’ll see if they keep it with the changes TC215 mentioned earlier..

[HCM]

Joe Chambers at Chambers Customs has recently started doing "mathematical reviews" of single stack and double stack 1911s on his Patreon channel "1911 University." In his reviews, he compares a several measurements and tolerances to what he uses on his builds. For instance slide to frame fit, bushing fit, vertical impact surface, barrel leg fit, extractor, etc.

I'll be keeping an eye on these for a while before I dive into the 1911 world. He's done a couple reviews of $3k+ custom shop guns with an unimpressive fit and drop-in or barely massaged parts that you'd expect in a $1k to $1500 semi custom. He's quick to point out that these are reviews of single guns, so it's anecdotal and not indicative of the company or line as a whole.

A couple examples that he put on his public YT page:


https://youtu.be/cHJOxQcjrgw

One of his own guns that came back after 30k rounds.

https://youtu.be/QtJwq7FnLHQ

If you want another deep dive, I suggest the P&S Two World Wars episode. (It's also available in podcast form. I don't think you loose much by not watching it)


https://youtu.be/O_NrooMVMms

I definitely recall they like the Ruger in the $1000 price point and Dan Wesson in the sub $2000. I'm seem to recall Nighthawk was preferred in the $3000 point and, of course, Chambers at the $4k+ range.

One thing worth noting from the “two world wars” is Chambers mention of the RIA /Philippines 1911s. In summary if you want a 5” 1911 in 45 or 38 Super for range use, and you will only feed it/expect it to feed with FMJ the RIA/PI guns will generally run.

[Dave Williams]

I have both and for example just ran a CQB Commander and a DW CCO side by side at Gunsite.

How'd you like Gunsite? I was just out there, I loved it. Ran my Nighthawk that I carry that costs 10X as much as a Glock 17 and carries half the ammo LOL!

Nighthawks are great guns.

Here's a video of me running the Dozier Drill at Gunsite in March:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yw8-TWThwI

[JSGlock34]

During the last 10 minutes of his Ballistic Radio interview, Jason Burton of Heirloom Precision gives his thoughts on 1911s at various price points. Well worth the listen. He has good things to say about Wilson Combat and SACS guns.

Ballistic Radio: TWO World Wars! (http://ballisticradio.com/2019/06/04/two-world-wars-podcast-season-7-ballistic-radio-episode-296-may-19th-2019/)

[rob_s]

How about Ed Brown?

I had a Special Forces model years ago. I believe it was their answer to the then-still-newish Wilson CQB?
https://www.edbrown.com/product/bo-18-special-forces/

IIRC it was also, like the CQB, about $1k less at that time…


I really liked the one Ed Brown I’ve had. Now they’ve gone from making fairly traditional-looking 1911’s to guns with the crazy cuts in the slides. I have no idea if the quality now is as good as the older guns.

One of the biggest Ed Brown dealers in the country told me to steer clear of their guns in 9mm (this was before their new EVO 9mm).

It does appear that the Special Forces has avoided the “pimp mah gun” treatment.

Sadly, it seems that’s the direction that Wilson is going as well.

[JAD]

How'd you like Gunsite?

I went back with a group of folks who I’d first gone with in ‘97 and who I’d trained with a lot for a few years, so it was a lot of fun.

[HCM]

It does appear that the Special Forces has avoided the “pimp mah gun” treatment.

Sadly, it seems that’s the direction that Wilson is going as well.

How much of that is trying to appeal to younger buyers who associate “custom pistols’ with custom striker guns from Agency, Zev, Salient etc. In fact I believe some of the new style nighthawks or a collaboration with agency arms.

I don’t think much of the traditional semi custom 1911 customer base is big on the gold and I tried barrels on the slide cuts.

[Lester Polfus]

That theoretical versatility is actually what I think turns me off of 10mm.
If I need that capability, I will go to a revolver, where it's as simple as drop in cylinder and pull trigger. With an autoloader once you move out of the factory options, it seems you have to do a lot of fiddling to set up the gun to work with the higher end loads. At least that's my recollection of what's guys like GJM found out according to his experiences with it.

After 3 Glock 20s and about 10k rounds of 10mm, this is why my field gun is a 4” .357 GP100.

[psalms144.1]

Any input on Les Baer?A Baer 1911 is the only gun that's ever drawn blood from me just in handling the gun at SHOT show. Sliced my thumb badly on the hammer - needed to break out my boo boo kit to stop the bleeding. All in all, I was never that impressed with them...

[M2CattleCo]

I’ve probably owned at least $50K worth of 1911s over the years, most in the $2-$4K range and have launched an exorbitant amount of ammo in practice and competition. I’ve trained with some legendary 1911 guys and had a lot of fun in those years.

My notsohumble opinion?

There’s about maybe 5 or 6 shops that build one that I’d trust to carry, and then, it would have to be a non-ramped 5” 45. No exceptions.

Even then, they’re a colossal waste of time if your end goal is anything other than messing with 1911s.

[HCM]

A Baer 1911 is the only gun that's ever drawn blood from me just in handling the gun at SHOT show. Sliced my thumb badly on the hammer - needed to break out my boo boo kit to stop the bleeding. All in all, I was never that impressed with them...

The older guns did not have that issue but the new ones are as bad as Colts in terms of sharp edges.

[Gary1911A1]

My baer had so many sharp edges I didn't need to carry a pocket knife. It's a Premier II ad it does shoot well and is reliable.

[MandoWookie]

My baer had so many sharp edges I didn't need to carry a pocket knife. It's a Premier II ad it does shoot well and is reliable.

My limited shooting time on a friends Kimber was similar. Like holding a handful of razor blades.

[Stephanie B]

So, unless somebody wants to spend a ton of money, get a HK45, a Glock 21/30, a S&W M&P, Shield or a 4500 series? For the cost of a reliable (maybe) 1911, one can get two of almost anything else?

I'm not tossing this out to start a flamewar. I've owned a Colt Government Model (two different ones) for 40 years and acquired a LW Commander over a year ago. I've had no complaints about any of them. However, I've run none of them overly hard, they get cleaned after a range session. But it's starting to read as though that, other than affinity for the 1911 pattern, there is little reason to carry one for defensive purposes.

Am I wildly off base? Because I'd like to have a reliable near-milspec 1911, but it seems as that's not realistic.

[Bergeron]

I love 1911s, and I think that Stephanie is spot-on.

I had a fantastic experience with a M&P .45, and holding it, I really thought that if I were ever going to dive off into a .45 without owning other 1911s, I would have not picked a 1911 over that gun.

I’m just sunk cost and experience into 1911s, and ok with that fact- and I have Glock 9s, but on a real-world, where money and performance in practical settings are a thing- yeah, HK, S&W, and even Glock make more sense.

[psalms144.1]

I have a Springfield RO 5" 45, a DW CCO 45, a DW Valor Bobtail Commander 9mm, and an STI Staccato C Duo. They all run great - in fact, I just broke 3,000 rounds with the RO, and finally cleaned it. Haven't had any issues with any of them, despite intentionally abusing the RO trying to make it fail. They are all large, heavy, and capacity challenged, but not to the point where I don't carry them. Yes, I could get 2 more rounds in a S&W M&P 2.0 in a slightly smaller and definitely lighter package than the RO, but shooting them side by side is NOT comparable. Even the plain jane RO that I paid less than $700 for will shoot circles around the M&P, which, for me, shot better than the HK45, USPC, or 45C; all of which shot better than any wide body Glock (and I've owned them all except the 41).

I'll admit that, after getting over the CDI factor of the Staccato C Duo, it's gotten almost no carry time - in fact, I can't remember the last time I took it out of the safe. The Bobtail Valor Commander shoots much better and more comfortably when I want to show off shooting a 9mm 1911. And the Valor is really just a range toy for me, if I'm going to carry a small-ish single stack pistol as my primary, it's going to be loading with 230gr JHP, so my CCO gets MOST of my attention in my "carry rotation."

So, while the M&P/HK45/G21 make more LOGICAL sense as tools, they do very little to warm the cockles of my heart, hence the reason they've all gone down the road.

Of course, I'm also very close to the end of the time when I'm going to be carrying a pistol with a reasonable need to be prepared for an actual armed encounter daily, so, for me, shootability and just plain joy of the gun is starting to be more and more of a factor for me. If someone told me I needed to outfit a large group of LE folks with a .45 ACP pistol for duty use, I wouldn't even look at the 1911 - it would be the M&P45 with thumb safety without a second thought.

I'll add that I am also leery of DW's recent trend towards "gucci" guns - with angular slide profiles, "distressed" finishes, etc, and I'm saddened to hear about their loss of talent. I will say that the Valor I bought last summer came with a dead front NS - and the replacement part they provided was so oversized I didn't even try to install it. The local gun wrench told me he's never worked harder at installing a dovetail front sight, and I believe him.

I don't know what's what at Kimber, I haven't owned one since Cohen took the helm and turned what was one of the best shops in the business into a rainbow titanium diamond plated turd.

Colt is Colt - you get what you get, and their products are shockingly unrefined given the fact that they are basically THE birthplace of the 1911.
'
I've already expressed my lack of interest in a Baer; I always wanted an Ed Brown, but I haven't heard anything about them that makes me want to drop that kind of money on one; and we've had SO many forum members with large and unacceptable numbers of issues with Wilson high dollar guns, I wouldn't even consider them. Plus, the gucci larping cosmetics they're adopting just plain turn me off.

So, if I were looking for another 1911, it would have to be a true custom shop pistol, a DW, or a Springer RO/Ronin.

[DDTSGM]

Let this ride, please: 2:10:11 on the Podcasr - interesting as heck. Wondering if an MD watching could prescribe any meds to the hyper-active dude.

[KevH]

Am I wildly off base? Because I'd like to have a reliable near-milspec 1911, but it seems as that's not realistic.

You can totally have a reliable near-milspec 1911, but you have to have realistic expectations.

It’s going to chew up your hand a bit over long range sessions, won’t shoot 1” groups at 50 yards, won’t be as slick to reload as a gun with funnel on the bottom, will have an acceptable but not fantastic trigger pull, it will need lubrication and will rust if neglected and you may have to tweak or replace things a little or here or a little there.

You need to figure out what you want out of the gun and what you are willing to spend or learn.

I would have no problem running a bone stock Colt knowing what its limitations are.

Anecdotal tale time…

I shot 1911's (all bone stock surplus 1911A1's) growing up.

My own personal 1911 adventure started back in the 1990's with a Colt 1991A1 (the original one with the ugly roll mark). I bought it brand new for the then princely sum of $550. It was totally reliable out of the box. It didn't hiccup with any of the 230 gr ball or 200 gr H&G 68 loads I fed it. Tried some Federal Hydra-Shok and Winchester Black Talons in it and it fed those too just fine. That thing digested thousands of rounds in its stock configuration just fine.

After awhile, I started taking classes with it and shooting steel matches with it and found that if I shot it all day (typically 400 rounds or so) I'd have really chewed up hands. I also got made fun of for shooting a stock 1911. All the cool kids told me I needed a beavertail grip safety so off to Don Williams at the Action Works it went for a Chip McCormick beavertail grip safety, STI hammer, Novak sight, an Ed Brown thumb safety and a Greider trigger. It came back and had a hiccup or two (which it never had in stock form) and I had to send it back to him for a little more massaging. I decided to add stippling to the front strap (should have had him raise the it, but I didn’t know any better) while it was there and had him "lower and flare the ejection port."

The gun stayed that way until the mid-2000's when I decided it needed a light rail (remember the cool kid influence). Dawson had just rolled out their bolt-on so off to Dawson it went where they drilled and tapped the dustcover and added one. Combined with the SUPER bright (and super cool) new Surefire X200 in a Safariland 6260 and I thought I had the most bitchin setup there was to be had.

Then I decided I needed a new rear sight. MARS Armament just came into existence so I packaged up my gun and off it went to him for a modified Yost-Bonitz rear sight. He also added an EGW barrel bushing at my request (this must have been around 2008 or so).

In 2009, the gun was retired from duty use (replaced by another 1911) and has since served as my backup gun for training.

At some point around 2012 I decided the Dawson rail was dumb and removed it.

I cracked the factory firing pin stop in 2018 or so and added one of John Harrison's units to the gun.

I've had that gun over twenty years. It's been re-blued several times. It looks like absolute heck right now, but it shoots just fine (I owe it a new barrel and a refresh that I keep putting off). To be quite honest, it taught me a lot about 1911's (I've owned dozens since I bought it and have probably spent enough money on them over the years to buy a small house in the midwest). This is the typical evolution of the dedicated 1911 user.

I would have NO PROBLEM buying a Colt in the 1911A1 setup and running it, but my expectations would be that it is a GI spec gun. It will make your hand sore during extended range sessions, will have mediocre sights, and not have the extra “stuff” we’ve come to think are standard in a 1911.

A lifetime into playing with 1911’s and I know exactly what I want in one. I know what works for me and what doesn’t. I know how to fix it when it breaks and I know what work I’m capable of performing myself and what I need someone with more skill than me (and a mill) to do.

[gato naranja]

But it's starting to read as though that, other than affinity for the 1911 pattern, there is little reason to carry one for defensive purposes.

Am I wildly off base? Because I'd like to have a reliable near-milspec 1911, but it seems as that's not realistic.

I see them as sort of the handgun version of a musclecar. Can you use a 1969 GTX as a daily driver? Sure.... but it's a labor of love to do so and a Subaru WRX STI will go as fast while being safer, more efficient, and less demanding.... as well as less expensive.

(Style points and nostalgia become important in inverse proportion to disposable income.)

I love my 5" 9mm RO Springer as an affordable range toy/plinker, but I'd whine loudly if I had to use it for much more than a pleasant fun gun.

[Robinson]

So, unless somebody wants to spend a ton of money, get a HK45, a Glock 21/30, a S&W M&P, Shield or a 4500 series? For the cost of a reliable (maybe) 1911, one can get two of almost anything else?

I'm not tossing this out to start a flamewar. I've owned a Colt Government Model (two different ones) for 40 years and acquired a LW Commander over a year ago. I've had no complaints about any of them. However, I've run none of them overly hard, they get cleaned after a range session. But it's starting to read as though that, other than affinity for the 1911 pattern, there is little reason to carry one for defensive purposes.

Am I wildly off base? Because I'd like to have a reliable near-milspec 1911, but it seems as that's not realistic.

Actually having a reliable traditional-styled 1911 is a realistic goal/wish/desire.

None of my 45 Colts ever gave me any trouble at all. None. A couple of them were shot a lot, and they were drama free. I'm starting a transition to Glocks for carry for two reasons -- less weight and more rounds. If for some reason I couldn't make that transition I would keep putting my Colt Lightweight Government in the holster and carry on.

[Bucky]

My baer had so many sharp edges I didn't need to carry a pocket knife. It's a Premier II ad it does shoot well and is reliable.

That’s one thing, despite the issues I had with my P2, it’s really nice feeling in the hand. There’s no sharp edges, and all the corners are nicely rounded That is the noticeable difference between my Baer and my friends DW. Of course said friends DW has been go to go right out of the box.

Another thing I should mention, my Baer is pretty loose now, despite how tight it was when I got it. Admittedly, it’s still quite accurate so that doesn’t really bother me other than the fact that they boast how tight their guns are.

[theJanitor]

My buying tip: Buy the best gun you can afford, at the time you’re ready to buy. You can wait and try to move to the next level and it’ll take forever, as there’s ALWAYS something better. And if you’re gonna buy a “production” gun, allow $250 for a pro review of the gun.

I just checked two legit smiths, Don Williams, and Jim Milks. They both charge $160 for their “Reliability Package”. This does a few things. It gets you a tuned extractor and an experienced opinion of your piece. It saves you money, as 45 ain’t cheap, and spending ammo trying to vet the gun can get pricey. Third, it gets you talking to a real smith, and you’d be surprised how valuable small conversations with these guys are. You’ll learn what good questions are, and what good answers sound like. And when you get to the point where you want modifications, your foot is already in the door.

[rob_s]

So, unless somebody wants to spend a ton of money, get a HK45, a Glock 21/30, a S&W M&P, Shield or a 4500 series? For the cost of a reliable (maybe) 1911, one can get two of almost anything else?

I'm not tossing this out to start a flamewar. I've owned a Colt Government Model (two different ones) for 40 years and acquired a LW Commander over a year ago. I've had no complaints about any of them. However, I've run none of them overly hard, they get cleaned after a range session. But it's starting to read as though that, other than affinity for the 1911 pattern, there is little reason to carry one for defensive purposes.

Am I wildly off base? Because I'd like to have a reliable near-milspec 1911, but it seems as that's not realistic.

If you just want to “have” it (which is the case with most guns) then it really doesn’t matter.

If you want to take it out and rub it with a diaper from time to time, same thing.

If you want to shoot it at the range from time time to time, it’s likely that whatever malfunctions you have will be mild annoyances at best, and largely mitigated by shooting 230 grain FMJ.

If you want to shoot hundreds of LSWC in matches every week, a “mil spec” 1911 probably is t for you anyway as the controls aren’t going to be optimal.

If you want to carry it... well why would you want to carry a milspec 1911? Nostalgia? Anachronism? Again, it’s not really optimized for that, and the ammo you’re going to want to carry in it may cause you issues.

The cost of higher-end 1911s is, and has been for some time, an issue of cost of failure and cost of labor.

In the early days of 1911 ‘smithing nearly everyone bought a complete milspec gun and started re-shaping and throwing away parts. Kimber, when they first came on the scene and didn’t suck, changed everything because you bought the gun pre-shaped and with the parts you’d want. They essentially manufactured guns already pimped, which saved the buyer the cost of paying someone to shape and the double cost of buying almost every single part twice (once in the gun, and once for the go-fast parts). Why Kimber had to go and screw it all up, I’ll never understand.

Now everyone is paying $3-5k for Wilson’s and other high-end production guns that basically just do what Kimber did (have the slides and frames manufactured to their specs, and install the go-fast parts from the beginning). Why do they cost 3-5- what a new a kimber didn20 years ago? Inflation, “hand-fitting” and marketing. Even when they do make a $2500 1911 (https://www.wilsoncombat.com/acp-full-size/) they bugger it up with daft aesthetics.

Once you do get into the “hand fitting” of things, your costs go up as well. Skilled labor that wants to work in guns isn’t exactly cheap as I bet it once was. Plus we’ve wrapped this whole thing in some mythos, and mythos costs money.

Back to your milspec 1911, of you can find a Colt 1911 Classic (https://www.colt.com/detail-page/1911-classic). It’ll be fine for anything a milspec 1911 should be expected to do. And IMO there’s no other “milspec” worth owning, since the owning is half the point.

[krav51]

Although technically it's a 1911 derivative, Wilson finally produced the 1911 I've always wanted. And I think more manufacturers will follow suit. I started carrying Glocks even though I never shot them quite as well as my 1911's because until the EDC 9 no one made one with the features I wanted . Reliability in 9mm,high capacity, no grip safety,great 1911 trigger, reasonable weight for carry,and red dot ready from the factory.Plus it feels better in my hand than any 2011 ever has.I think you'll see a lot of manufacturers going in this direction.

[claymore504]

I'm not a huge 1911 guy, but love and respect them for sure. I own a couple, but would like one more (a full size railed in 45). The one I will go with once I find it will be a Dan Wesson Specialist. They are just made well and I want one that is good to go right out of the box. For the price you can't beat the quality.

[CLaw]

The EDC X9 seemed like such a great concept to me. I wonder why it hasn’t gotten more attention…



Although technically it's a 1911 derivative, Wilson finally produced the 1911 I've always wanted. And I think more manufacturers will follow suit. I started carrying Glocks even though I never shot them quite as well as my 1911's because until the EDC 9 no one made one with the features I wanted . Reliability in 9mm,high capacity, no grip safety,great 1911 trigger, reasonable weight for carry,and red dot ready from the factory.Plus it feels better in my hand than any 2011 ever has.I think you'll see a lot of manufacturers going in this direction.

[krav51]

The EDC X9 seemed like such a great concept to me. I wonder why it hasn’t gotten more attention…
I'm guessing the price might keep a lot of people away. I couldn't be happier with mine.

[secondstoryguy]

I know I have mentioned it in a previous post but Staccato (STI) has got their shit together. Their manufacturing line is geared quality assurance and everything I saw on their line (as well as the people working there) tells me they care.
I recently purchased a Staccato P Duo and have hot washed it with about 1k rounds to include some decrepit Federal/winchester ammo and 90/100gr frangible. It's been very reliable with the exception of one malf related to it being dirty, my 13 year old shooting and limp wristing it, and the ammo being corroded with a truncated FMJ type round. I did notice that the slide was slowing down around the 1k mark and that reminded me that unlike a Glock/HK it's a gun that I'm actually going to have to clean every once in a while. That's life with a 1911....

[theJanitor]

I'm guessing the price might keep a lot of people away. I couldn't be happier with mine.

Mine was super-reliable, and shot like a laser. But it's expensive, ugly as sin, and sight options suck, especially the rear.

[rob_s]

I know I have mentioned it in a previous post but Staccato (STI) has got their shit together. Their manufacturing line is geared quality assurance and everything I saw on their line (as well as the people working there) tells me they care.
I recently purchased a Staccato P Duo and have hot washed it with about 1k rounds to include some decrepit Federal/winchester ammo and 90/100gr frangible. It's been very reliable with the exception of one malf related to it being dirty, my 13 year old shooting and limp wristing it, and the ammo being corroded with a truncated FMJ type round. I did notice that the slide was slowing down around the 1k mark and that reminded me that unlike a Glock/HK it's a gun that I'm actually going to have to clean every once in a while. That's life with a 1911....

am I recalling or understanding correctly that along with the name change came a doubling down on strictly double-stack guns?

[CLaw]

That makes a lot of sense. Support options and cost are probably big factors. I think they would have sold a bucketload of them at a 1.5k price point.

Seems like they have good magazine design. I still think the STI magazines just seem like a weak link and the size of STIs seem a bit to large.

Maybe that CZ gun will come out someday? lol


Mine was super-reliable, and shot like a laser. But it's expensive, ugly as sin, and sight options suck, especially the rear.

[KevH]

I know I have mentioned it in a previous post but Staccato (STI) has got their shit together. Their manufacturing line is geared quality assurance and everything I saw on their line (as well as the people working there) tells me they care.
I recently purchased a Staccato P Duo and have hot washed it with about 1k rounds to include some decrepit Federal/winchester ammo and 90/100gr frangible. It's been very reliable with the exception of one malf related to it being dirty, my 13 year old shooting and limp wristing it, and the ammo being corroded with a truncated FMJ type round. I did notice that the slide was slowing down around the 1k mark and that reminded me that unlike a Glock/HK it's a gun that I'm actually going to have to clean every once in a while. That's life with a 1911....

Staccato (STI) has done a phenomenal job of marketing themselves in the last couple years. They put their guns in the hands of all the cool kids that post on social media and into the hands of a couple big name LE units (so they can say they did).

Ken and Mas, Wilson's guys', both of whom I have great respect for and and love, don't get the clicks and therefore don't get the twenty-something's cash.

Doing a side-by-side comparison Wilson (and Nighthawk and some other manufacturers') guns feel a little more refined compared to the STI's, if that makes any sense.

There isn't anything wrong with either gun.

[WilsonCombatRep]

The EDC X9 seemed like such a great concept to me. I wonder why it hasn’t gotten more attention…



Well, we are heavily, heavily back-ordered on X9 family guns. We build as many as we can and are 8-12 months back ordered. In fact, since we launched it, the X9 has been in a continuous state of backorder.

If all we built were x9's, I would assume you would see more of them in the wild.

[WilsonCombatRep]

Mine was super-reliable, and shot like a laser. But it's expensive, ugly as sin, and sight options suck, especially the rear.


Sounds like you need the Experior "Double Stack" Commander. Can take standard fixed sights and it's a little more classic looking. Same great x9 reliability.
https://www.wilsoncombat.com/experior-commander-double-stack/

[theJanitor]

And if you’re gonna buy a “production” gun, allow $250 for a pro review of the gun.

I just checked two legit smiths, Don Williams, and Jim Milks. They both charge $160 for their “Reliability Package”.

I'm going to quote myself to emphasize my suggestion for novice 1911 owners. For the current price of a couple of range sessions, any of these packages would be money well spent.These are the packages I'm referring to:


Jim Milks was the gunsmith at EGW for a long time before opening his own shop. He's done several difficult jobs for me and they've turned out great. http://www.innovativecustomguns.com/p/gunsmith-services.html

Basic Reliability Package 160.00

Polish and throat barrel
Polish feed ramp
Polish bolt face
EGW HD extractor
Tune extractor
Test fire for function


Don Williams is another long time smith that knows his way around a 1911 and Hipower. http://theactionworks.com/colt-1911/

C002 Reliability Package $160

includes throat barrel
polish feed ramp
new match polished and tuned extractor
polish & adjust breech face
adjust magazines as needed


Frank Glenn is an old-school smith and has done a ton of work for me. I haven't spoken to him in years, so I don't know how much work he's taking on. http://glenncustom.com/pricing_reliability.html


Reliability Package
Polish, throat, tune extractor, polish breach face, check chamber $70.00
Long ejector for .45 $45.00
Long ejector for Commander, 38, 10mm $45.00
Fit and tune spare extractor $40.00
Lower Ejection Port and Flare $55.00
EGW oversize firing pin stop fitted $30.00
Install EGW Officers bushing, guide rod, reverse plug $85.00
Test fire gun* $20.00

[KevH]

Well, we are heavily, heavily back-ordered on X9 family guns. We build as many as we can and are 8-12 months back ordered. In fact, since we launched it, the X9 has been in a continuous state of backorder.

If all we built were x9's, I would assume you would see more of them in the wild.

I ordered a 9mm CQB back in January and am still waiting. I'm assuming you guys aren't hurting for business right now. :cool:

[secondstoryguy]

am I recalling or understanding correctly that along with the name change came a doubling down on strictly double-stack guns?

Yea, which in my opinion was wise (KISS principal) from a QC and reliability standpoint.

[WilsonCombatRep]

I ordered a 9mm CQB back in January and am still waiting. I'm assuming you guys aren't hurting for business right now. :cool:

It's a blessing and a curse. Our focus as a company is improving manufacturing time and quality at the same time. We are doing this by increasing the number of machines we have so we can focus on maximizing parts manufacturing efficiency to go into our guns.

The Wilson Combat internally produced product line is huge (check out www.shopwilsoncombat.com). If all we built were X9's all day every day they would be -everywhere-but we can't do that. We build a ton of AR's, 1911's and then parts and accessories for numerous other platforms. We load ammo, and build AR barrels in hundreds of configurations. We don't just build X9's.

[HCM]

Staccato (STI) has done a phenomenal job of marketing themselves in the last couple years. They put their guns in the hands of all the cool kids that post on social media and into the hands of a couple big name LE units (so they can say they did).

Ken and Mas, Wilson's guys', both of whom I have great respect for and and love, don't get the clicks and therefore don't get the twenty-something's cash.

Doing a side-by-side comparison Wilson (and Nighthawk and some other manufacturers') guns feel a little more refined compared to the STI's, if that makes any sense.

There isn't anything wrong with either gun.

I would hope a Nighthawk 2011 would be more refined than a Stacatto as they are 2x the price.

Having done a factory tour of STI back around 2012/2013 and done another late last year I can say there is a night /day difference between the old STI and way the current company operates.

It’s still a 1911 ish platform so the cleaning/lube and PM are still greater than Glocks or M&P’s but so far seem similar to metal frame duty guns. That’s assuming it’s treated as a duty gun and not tinkered with.

Having seen the “Gepeto’s workshop” where STI mags used to be made, the redesign and outsourcing of the 2011 mags alone is a huge improvement.

[secondstoryguy]

I would hope a Nighthawk 2011 would be more refined than a Stacatto as they are 2x the price.

Having done a factory tour of STI back around 2012/2013 and done another late last year I can say there is a night /day difference between the old STI and way the current company operates.

It’s still a 1911 ish platform so the cleaning/lube and PM are still greater than Glocks or M&P’s but so far seem similar to metal frame duty guns. That’s assuming it’s treated as a duty gun and not tinkered with.

Having seen the “Gepeto’s workshop” where STI mags used to be made, the redesign and outsourcing of the 2011 mags alone is a huge improvement.

The newer magazines are definitely a plus. Mine are marked "G3" so I'm guessing they have had some previous revisions.

I've owned multiple Nighthawk pistols and they are nice but the fit and finish of my Stacatto is about the same....and you are right on with the price....with the LE discount a Staccato isn't much more than some of the boutique Glocks out there.

[CLaw]

Cool. I’d be curious to know more about the differences between the x9 and eXperior, like the reason for the move back to the internal extractor.


Well, we are heavily, heavily back-ordered on X9 family guns. We build as many as we can and are 8-12 months back ordered. In fact, since we launched it, the X9 has been in a continuous state of backorder.

If all we built were x9's, I would assume you would see more of them in the wild.

[CLaw]

Are the double stack 9mms easier to get running than single stacks because of the magazines? It seems that I’ve read on this forum and others that the single stack 9mm 1911s just don’t seem to be worth the squeeze to get running right.
Yea, which in my opinion was wise (KISS principal) from a QC and reliability standpoint.

[HCM]

The newer magazines are definitely a plus. Mine are marked "G3" so I'm guessing they have had some previous revisions.

I've owned multiple Nighthawk pistols and they are nice but the fit and finish of my Stacatto is about the same....and you are right on with the price....with the LE discount a Staccato isn't much more than some of the boutique Glocks out there.

My only complaint about my 2020 PDuo is the grip texture. It’s slicker than it looks and needs either Talon tape or stippling.

[WilsonCombatRep]

Cool. I’d be curious to know more about the differences between the x9 and eXperior, like the reason for the move back to the internal extractor.

It's not a move back-it's just an option for folks who screamed loudly and wanted a more traditional-looking gun with standard 1911 front sight dovetails, and no X-pattern.
The innate reliability of the X9/Experior is higher than any 1911 as the mag to barrel feed angle has been changed and the double column Mec gar magazines are unbeatable from a reliability standpoint even when compared to Gen X, Y, Z of any 2011 mag.

I prefer the user-replaceable extractor and front sight of the X9 vs the 1911 style of the Experior Commander. Limited front sight heights have forced us to use an elevation adjustable rear sight on the X9 that some folks don't like. An enterprising gunsmith can easily retrofit a Novak dovetail tall rear to work for most shooters.

Since the X9 has developed an enviable track record for reliability you will see more X9 models and variants in the future as we expand production. We simply cannot build them fast enough.

[HCM]

Are the double stack 9mms easier to get running than single stacks because of the magazines? It seems that I’ve read on this forum and others that the single stack 9mm 1911s just don’t seem to be worth the squeeze to get running right.

In general / historically the double stacks were harder.

While the new magazines can help older / STI / non stacatto guns, I think it’s important to stress the positive results seen with Stacatto 2011’s 1) don’t necessarily transfer to other/older 2011s and 2) are based on treating them like duty guns - meaning clean/lube/do factory recommended maintenance. That’s it. It’s a system set up by master 1911 gunsmiths including Dave Dawson and Shawn Armstrong (Formerly of Nighthawk). If you change the equation by tinkering with it and replacing parts with aftermarket etc you will get the same negative results similar tinkering produces on 1911s, Glocks etc.

[theJanitor]

X9 front sight attachment system is perfect. And the mags are perfect too. I would have loved the x9 with traditional checkering, and traditional slide serrations.

[Stephanie B]

I live in a hi-cap ban state. So the "wondernines" (to use an old term) have no benefit for me. A LW Commander in .45 or HK 45C is probably as good as it's going to get.

[newyork]

I live in a hi-cap ban state. So the "wondernines" (to use an old term) have no benefit for me. A LW Commander in .45 or HK 45C is probably as good as it's going to get.

I feel ya. Same here.

[TheNewbie]

Did Colt ever make a lightweight full size series 80? Even in the lightweight configuration, is the 5 inch still preferred?


They have the lightweight commander.

[Robinson]

Did Colt ever make a lightweight full size series 80? Even in the lightweight configuration, is the 5 inch still preferred?


They have the lightweight commander.

What you described is my current carry gun. Haven't fully transitioned to Glocks yet. The Lightweight Government is great because the alloy frame really makes a difference in the weight but it still shoots like a full size 1911 should.

71615

[fatdog]

Did Colt ever make a lightweight full size series 80? .

Yep in the XSE's they did, CDNN was even closing them out a few years back.

[TheNewbie]

What you described is my current carry gun. Haven't fully transitioned to Glocks yet. The Lightweight Government is great because the alloy frame really makes a difference in the weight but it still shoots like a full size 1911 should.

71615


See something like this would be up my alley, and is one of the few things that would make AIWB on option for me.
Yet I’m paranoid that it will be beyond unreliable and I’m an idiot for not just going Glock.

[KevH]

Did Colt ever make a lightweight full size series 80? Even in the lightweight configuration, is the 5 inch still preferred?


They have the lightweight commander.

Yes, it was called the "Colt Lightweight Government." The SKU was O1880XSE. They stopped when they modernized their production method to CNC a few years back.

[Bucky]

Although technically it's a 1911 derivative, Wilson finally produced the 1911 I've always wanted. And I think more manufacturers will follow suit. I started carrying Glocks even though I never shot them quite as well as my 1911's because until the EDC 9 no one made one with the features I wanted . Reliability in 9mm,high capacity, no grip safety,great 1911 trigger, reasonable weight for carry,and red dot ready from the factory.Plus it feels better in my hand than any 2011 ever has.I think you'll see a lot of manufacturers going in this direction.

I assume you mean EDC X9, not EDC 9, in which case I feel exactly the same.

[krav51]

I assume you mean EDC X9, not EDC 9, in which case I feel exactly the same.
Yes,EDC x9.Thanks

[MandoWookie]

With the mention of Wilson's internal vs. external extractor, what is the opinions on other external extractor 1911s like the S&W and Sigs?

Gotta admit the basic S&W E-series looks attractive at it price-point, but I dont know anything about parts compatibility or availability for it.

[DDTSGM]

I'm at 3:08.20 on the Podcast - interesting as heck.

Well worth watching.

[Robinson]

See something like this would be up my alley, and is one of the few things that would make AIWB on option for me.
Yet I’m paranoid that it will be beyond unreliable and I’m an idiot for not just going Glock.

Well I can only speak about my own experience, but the gun in the picture has never malfunctioned once. Neither has its training analog, a steel XSE that has fired many thousands of rounds.

[JonInWA]

With the mention of Wilson's internal vs. external extractor, what is the opinions on other external extractor 1911s like the S&W and Sigs?

Gotta admit the basic S&W E-series looks attractive at it price-point, but I dont know anything about parts compatibility or availability for it.

While I never had any operational issues with the OEM stainless steel external extractor on my 2006 prodction SIG GSR, when I agreed to be a beta tester for Bruce Gray's tool steel replacement, Bruce found that approximately 30% of my OEM hook had chipped off in use. The OEM SIG ones were a knoown weak point; Bruce's replacement, shortly followed by a re-materialed and redesigned one by SIG, and another similar replacement from EGW totally resolved the issues.

SIG, as did Beretta previously (on their stainless Inox version of the 92) discovered that stainless steel is not the best choice for an extractor.

Best, Jon

[UNK]

Dan Wesson worked just fine for me for SWAT/firearms instructor duty. I will say, though, I’m not necessarily crazy about the direction the company is headed. I’m sure they still make good guns though.

There’s been several of us here that have had serious issues with Wilson Combat guns the last few years. If I was going to order one right now, Alchemy would get my money, or maybe Ed Brown.

Only Springfield I’d consider carrying on duty would be a Pro. I know of teams using the TRP that have issues keeping them running.

I would add on the Dan Wessons their warranty is for 5 years. It is for the original owner only. I have the impression that in the past they would overlook if you weren’t the original owner but recent conversations with them lead me to believe thats not the case anymore.

[Stephanie B]

What about polymer-framed 1911s? Are they practical?

[Robinson]

What about polymer-framed 1911s? Are they practical?

I've heard some good things about the Rock River Arms poly. Wilson Combat used to make the Spec Ops 9, but I don't know much about it. I don't think it was in production for very long.

[Bergeron]

My understanding of the Spec-Ops 9 was that the process of bonding the polymer grip/frame to the metal frame was a very intensive process. The quote as recall it, from one of the Wilson Combat reps was that the gun could have also been called a "SuperGrade Spec-Ops 9" because the effort that went into that gun was the same as Wilson's most premier product. That's just not economically viable. So while I bet it would still be a neat, higher performing gun, it's not a gun I'd really pursue.

Poly 1911s could mean a variety of things- 2011s with plastic grips and aluminum or steel frames, the Rock River polymer guns, the Bul pattern, the Cosaint patter, and I'm sure I'm missing out on some other designs. I tend to be suspicious of the single stacks, but that's a feeling, not as the result of any experience.

[M2CattleCo]

In the early days of 1911 ‘smithing nearly everyone bought a complete milspec gun and started re-shaping and throwing away parts. Kimber, when they first came on the scene and didn’t suck, changed everything because you bought the gun pre-shaped and with the parts you’d want. They essentially manufactured guns already pimped, which saved the buyer the cost of paying someone to shape and the double cost of buying almost every single part twice (once in the gun, and once for the go-fast parts). Why Kimber had to go and screw it all up, I’ll never understand.

Now everyone is paying $3-5k for Wilson’s and other high-end production guns that basically just do what Kimber did (have the slides and frames manufactured to their specs, and install the go-fast parts from the beginning). Why do they cost 3-5- what a new a kimber didn20 years ago? Inflation, “hand-fitting” and marketing. Even when they do make a $2500 1911 (https://www.wilsoncombat.com/acp-full-size/) they bugger it up with daft aesthetics.
.


Kimbers never didn’t suck.

They were always built with drop-in MIM parts and their shorter than 5” guns were always a waste of time.

Their slides and frames were ok for a base gun, but that’s about it.

[45dotACP]

What about polymer-framed 1911s? Are they practical?The poly framed RRA that I bought new showed evidence that the extractor was fit by hand. The barrel and bushing appear to be a Nowlin match grade barrel and a Kart National Match bushing. It's lighter than a government model by a fair amount (sorry dont have a scale) and it's freakishly accurate. Far more so than a base model Kimber, Springfield, Colt and easily competitive with many more expensive brands. At the time I bought it you could buy it for around 900 bones...about what you'd expect to pay for an entry level gun from Springfield, Kimber, or Colt. It came with a steel bushing wrench (you're gonna need it) and the gun passed the 10-8 extractor test on my first range trip. More on that in a sec, but that's perhaps one of the stronger indicators that a 1911 is going to be reliable. Despite the significant difference in weight, the gun shoots very pleasantly. I prefer it in fact, and I am considering making it my single stack gun for USPSA just to mess with the boomers who still shoot single stack.

The downsides were as follows. Holster compatibility with standard 1911s was dodgy. The garrity invictus I bought from a member here works well, but most kydex holsters and even a few leather ones won't. You should be looking for a large framed pistol holster like a 2011 according to the rep from RRA that I reached via email. I did buy a belt holster from blade tech for a 2011 and it fit. Also, I did tension the extractor before I fired a single round, because I have trust issues. That said, the extractors geometry was ideal and it grips the cartridge as it should, in a way that puts no stress on the extractor hook. Also the thumb safety was immensely stiff and I dressed it with a file. Also I filed down the front sight because POI was a little low.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[HCM]

In the early days of 1911 ‘smithing nearly everyone bought a complete milspec gun and started re-shaping and throwing away parts. Kimber, when they first came on the scene and didn’t suck, changed everything because you bought the gun pre-shaped and with the parts you’d want. They essentially manufactured guns already pimped, which saved the buyer the cost of paying someone to shape and the double cost of buying almost every single part twice (once in the gun, and once for the go-fast parts). Why Kimber had to go and screw it all up, I’ll never understand.

Now everyone is paying $3-5k for Wilson’s and other high-end production guns that basically just do what Kimber did (have the slides and frames manufactured to their specs, and install the go-fast parts from the beginning). Why do they cost 3-5- what a new a kimber didn20 years ago? Inflation, “hand-fitting” and marketing. Even when they do make a $2500 1911 (https://www.wilsoncombat.com/acp-full-size/) they bugger it up with daft aesthetics.

Once you do get into the “hand fitting” of things, your costs go up as well. Skilled labor that wants to work in guns isn’t exactly cheap as I bet it once was. Plus we’ve wrapped this whole thing in some mythos, and mythos costs money.




Kimbers never didn’t suck.

They were always built with drop-in MIM parts and their shorter than 5” guns were always a waste of time.

Their slides and frames were ok for a base gun, but that’s about it.

The early Kimbers were neither the mythical "Wilson CQB at a bargain price" many make them out to be nor were they the complete balls of suck and fail they devolved into later.

I don't know how old M2 is but RobS should be old enough to remember that before Kimber there was no such thing as a Springfield Loaded or similar on the market. A few of the Colts could be had with higher profile sights like those seen on the 1991 series guns, Springfield had a similar model called the defender with higher sights and an extended thumb safety. That's it. The early Kimbers were decent guns equal to an SAI Loaded, which, if I recall correctly was created specifically to compete with Kimber. If you wanted a beavertail, extended safety, useable sights etc back then you either had to add them aftermarket or buy a higher grade gun like a Wilson or something from the Colt or Springfield Custom shop.

IME, the Kimber 5" series 70 style guns, such as the Warriors are > the other Kimbers and will need the least tweeking.

[theJanitor]

Kimbers were good in the mid-90's. They had nicer frames and slides than Springfield, IMO, and their barrels shot well. Some people lament the fact that guys like Chuck Rogers or Larry Vickers would build full customs on them, but it's proof the frames/slides were of quality. When I had Drake Oldham build me a pistol off a Kimber, I had him surface grind the logo off :cool:

Wilson came out with their 1996A2 model at the same time, after transitioning from CMC (maybe wilsoncombatrep can set me straight here), so the entire industry was in movement.

eta: rob_s had a 1* built off a Springer, IIRC. Mine is built on a colt, but that makes us old enough, lol

[rob_s]

I don't know how old M2 is but RobS should be old enough to remember that before Kimber there was no such thing as a Springfield Loaded or similar on the market. A few of the Colts could be had with higher profile sights like those seen on the 1991 series guns, Springfield had a similar model called the defender with higher sights and an extended thumb safety. That's it. The early Kimbers were decent guns equal to an SAI Loaded, which, if I recall correctly was created specifically to compete with Kimber. If you wanted a beavertail, extended safety, useable sights etc back then you either had to add them aftermarket or buy a higher grade gun like a Wilson or something from the Colt or Springfield Custom shop.


That's more or less my recollections as well.

My initial exposure to Kimber would have been sometime around 1995 I think. I seem to recall being aware of the change from "Kimber in Oregon" to "Kimber in Yonkers" (and maybe some transition therein where they were called "Kimber of Oregon" while not actually being, you know, IN Oregon? But maybe that's urban myth or brain fade...). I think there were maybe two models available when I discovered them at a local gunshop through a friend. it was ridiculous... I think they were $600?

The Springfield "loaded" was almost certainly a reaction IIRC. But again, brain fade.

What I do recall about the early Kimbers is what I posted before. Their economic/manufacturing "genius" was buying the frames and slides already roughed in for the parts they planned to install (beavertails, sights, etc.) and then installing those parts right out of the gate, vs what everyone else was doing was hacking away at those frames and slides after the fact and throwing away the stock parts. I do recollect that they were also "better" than a lot of what was on the market at the time, and I don't recall them as having reliability or other issues, but again, brain fade.

in terms of comparing them to Wilson or whatever, I'm sure the Wilsons of the day had more refinement, more TLC, etc. Maybe were even more accurate and prettier. But when the goal is a relilable 1911 that doesn't cut you to ribbons or otherwise shred your hands, my experience was that the Kimbers of that era couldn't have gotten any better.

[rob_s]

eta: rob_s had a 1* built off a Springer, IIRC.

one of maybe two guns I've ever sold (and I have sold a lot) that I actually regret. In fact, maybe the only one... :(

I'd love to track it down...

[45dotACP]

My brother has an older Kimber. As far as 1911s go, it is adequate. It's not world beating. The barrel fit is decent, the gun is reliable. It is not as accurate as the G21 he owns. It's nothing special compared to a modern, entry level 1911 with no firing pin safety.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[theJanitor]

one of maybe two guns I've ever sold (and I have sold a lot) that I actually regret. In fact, maybe the only one... :(

I'd love to track it down...

It took ten years, but I got my 1* Elite back

[farscott]

Kimbers never didn’t suck.

They were always built with drop-in MIM parts and their shorter than 5” guns were always a waste of time.

Their slides and frames were ok for a base gun, but that’s about it.

When Kimber introduced the Custom Classic, the execution was not the big deal. The big deal was getting a 1911 with a beavertail, a decent thumb safety, front cocking serrations, decent sights, and a dehorn did not require buying a new or used 1911 and then buying a ton of parts and paying someone to make a usable gun. The idea that an OEM could offer a 1911 that people could actually use as bought was novel. Kimber may not be Chuck Rogers or Bob Rodgers, but Kimber definitely made a difference in how the 1911 was made.

[rob_s]

Oh my god someone is still crying about MIM!

LMAO!

somebody get that guy a woobie!

(just make sure it's cast/milled/machined/knitted...!) :p

[WilsonCombatRep]

Jerico Precision (Jerry and Rich's Company) made beautiful gun parts.

Jerico became the prime vendor for Kimber when Kimber launched the Classic Custom in 1995 (The prototypes shown at the 1995 SHOT show were Caspian slides and frames)

Jerico also built parts for :
Nowlin
Wilson
CMC
Lone Star (STI)
Krebs

and others too numerous to remember. Kimber took a high-quality slide, frame, and barrel and surrounded it with mostly plastic and metal injection molded parts.
As they grew the business, they kept pushing the envelope to cut costs on the parts. By the time the Series 2 guns emerged, the quality of the small parts really suffered IMO.
A series 1 Kimber is an EXCELLENT budget 1911. The barrels shoot very, very well. You are hampered by some goofy sight cuts and other things designed to streamline assembly but overall, the base parts were really good.


When Kimber became a success they bought Jerico's shop in Yonkers, NY around 1996. At that point, custom 1911 companies had to find new vendors or start making frames and slides since the writing was on the wall that Kimber had no desire to sell parts to "competitors". Wilson started down the path to build slides and frames almost 20 years ago and never looked back. We started with vendors and for over a decade build everything in-house. To maintain quality, it's the only way.

[vcdgrips]

I own a Series 1 Kimber, SN 8xxx, Yonkers rollmark. It has been an excellent pistol. Made it thru a 1000+ round Gunsite class in 06/07 with nary a bobble except for the double charged round I reloaded. It was none the worst for the wear as per the Gunsite Smithy.

It is "The Truth." Far more accurate at 25+ than I will ever be.


I do not need another 1911 in my life right now. Yet EVERY TIME, I go into a store where guns are sold, I check the case for ANY Series 1 Kimber gun. I have been lucky once and bought it on the spot. A stainless Series 1, SN 32XXX, Yonkers rollmark. Sold it to a SWAT cop who would not take no for an answer and offered 100 more than I paid for it.

[WilsonCombatRep]

I own a Series 1 Kimber, SN 8xxx, Yonkers rollmark. It has been an excellent pistol. Made it thru a 1000+ round Gunsite class in 06/07 with nary a bobble except for the double charged round I reloaded. It was none the worst for the wear as per the Gunsite Smithy.

It is "The Truth." Far more accurate at 25+ than I will ever be.


I do not need another 1911 in my life right now. Yet EVERY TIME, I go into a store where guns are sold, I check the case for ANY Series 1 Kimber gun. I have been lucky once and bought it on the spot. A stainless Series 1, SN 32XXX, Yonkers rollmark. Sold it to a SWAT cop who would not take no for an answer and offered 100 more than I paid for it.

When Series 1 Kimbers came out I bought the first used one I ever saw ($500)

We put it in the barrel tester at the range and the barrel shot 95% as good as a Kart. If the chamber had been match tight and the crown better it may have shot better than the Kart.

[BillSWPA]

My series 1 Kimber was purchased in 1999. The gun was well over 99% reliable from the factory, but achieving 100% reliability required switching the extractor and firing pin stop, both from Wilson Combat. I tensioned the extractor myslef, bending it a little at a time until reliability was very close to 100%. A gunsmith then fitted the oversize firing pin stop to prevent any possible rotation of the extractor, taking reliability to 100%.

I have several thousand rounds through the gun. At one point, the barrel link had worn a channel in the slide stop, which was replaced with a drop-in Wilson slide stop. The barrel bushing also wore out, and was replaced by an EGW angled bushing, fitted by a gunsmith. MIM parts do not concern me, but as they wore out, I figured that replacing them with higher grade parts would eventually get me a better pistol than the one I originally purchased.

The full length, one-piece guide rod has never been an issue, and I have never seen any reason to change it.

The gun came with a 16 lb. recoil spring, but I currently run 18.5 lb. I also use a titanium firing pin with an extra power firing pin spring, which has never caused any ignition issues in thousands of rounds.

The gun has always been very accurate, except when I wore out the barrel bushing.

I question the wisdom of the decision to stop selling frames and slides to others. Not only would that provide a good revenue stream, but producing frames and slides deemed good enough for higher end guns makes a very nice selling point for an entry level 1911, even if that entry level gun is not the equivalent of a gun that has received a higher level of attention. I doubt someone looking to buy a Wilson would be lured away by a Kimber, and I doubt someone whose budget allows a Kimber will buy the Wilson instead.

Some gun magazines at the time described "custom" gun makers who would buy a Kimber, replace all the MIM parts with machined metal, fitted parts, and then sell the gun as a higher grade gun.

[KevH]

Kimbers never didn’t suck.

They were always built with drop-in MIM parts and their shorter than 5” guns were always a waste of time.

Their slides and frames were ok for a base gun, but that’s about it.

Have you ever shot a Clackamas-marked Kimber? They were/are shockingly well put together guns sharing most of their components with Chip McCormick's line at the time. Their slides, frames AND barrels were quite good. For the $600 or so they were charging for them they were an absolute steal. Their 4" guns also worked really well, not a waste of time in the slightest.

My Yonkers-marked pre-Series II Custom Classic was great. I tried to improve upon it and the first "gunsmith" that had it didn't do it any favors. Dave Berryhill (RIP) later sorted it out.

Were they the equivalent of a modern Wilson CQB? No way, but they changed the game and truly led to the 1911 renaissance in the late 1990's and 2000's.

[theJanitor]

Jerry Keefer had said that STI single stack frames/slides were excellent to build off of. This coming from one a handful of people that could make a gun out of a piece of billet.

[WilsonCombatRep]

Have you ever shot a Clackamas-marked Kimber? They were/are shockingly well put together guns sharing most of their components with Chip McCormick's line at the time. Their slides, frames AND barrels were quite good. For the $600 or so they were charging for them they were an absolute steal. Their 4" guns also worked really well, not a waste of time in the slightest.

My Yonkers-marked pre-Series II Custom Classic was great. I tried to improve upon it and the first "gunsmith" that had it didn't do it any favors. Dave Berryhill (RIP) later sorted it out.

Were they the equivalent of a modern Wilson CQB? No way, but they changed the game and truly led to the 1911 renaissance in the late 1990's and 2000's.



The Clackamas guns were actually also built in Yonkers. They didn't use CMC parts per se, -Chip and Locke (the engineer) designed all the parts for Kimber and they were made by a variety of vendors. The original MIM vendor was in Spain. That shifted to Israel (Why Bul parts look very similar) then back to the USA. You will probably remember that Chip sold a lot of these MIM Parts as "value plus" or something like that in yellow baggies. Hammer, sear, disco, barrel bushing, sights, slide stop and thumb safety. Even the grips that came from Costa Rica.
That ended after a few years.

[Tango]

Own and run a Series 1 45ACP Kimber (manufactured in 2000) Custom Target with non-adjustable sights along with a 2018 procured Dan Wesson Specialist in 9MM.

Had a chance to shoot an Stacatto P and I will say this. If I knew about the Stacatto P at the time, the Dan Wesson would not have been purchased.

Plenty of good info from users here. The one thing I will throw out there is that I actually see more 1911 usage in 2021 than I did in 2011. That's just my 10 cent view from a line guys perspective.

[M2CattleCo]

Oh my god someone is still crying about MIM!

LMAO!

somebody get that guy a woobie!

(just make sure it's cast/milled/machined/knitted...!) :p



Kimber MIM.

Some people know the difference.

[Rex G]

I have disremembered, with extreme prejudice, where my early Kimbers (Two early 1997 “Classic Customs” and a very early Stainless Gold Match) were made, but they were certainly very, very accurate, in a time when my accuracy potential, with 1911 pistols, was good enough to enable me to tell the difference.

[Rex G]

Kimber MIM.

Some people know the difference.

This. As my previous post indicated, my three Kimbers were so very accurate. It was other things about them that were so very aggravating. Magazines and small parts.

[19852+]

You can totally have a reliable near-milspec 1911, but you have to have realistic expectations.

It’s going to chew up your hand a bit over long range sessions, won’t shoot 1” groups at 50 yards, won’t be as slick to reload as a gun with funnel on the bottom, will have an acceptable but not fantastic trigger pull, it will need lubrication and will rust if neglected and you may have to tweak or replace things a little or here or a little there.

You need to figure out what you want out of the gun and what you are willing to spend or learn.

I would have no problem running a bone stock Colt knowing what its limitations are.

Anecdotal tale time…

I shot 1911's (all bone stock surplus 1911A1's) growing up.

My own personal 1911 adventure started back in the 1990's with a Colt 1991A1 (the original one with the ugly roll mark). I bought it brand new for the then princely sum of $550. It was totally reliable out of the box. It didn't hiccup with any of the 230 gr ball or 200 gr H&G 68 loads I fed it. Tried some Federal Hydra-Shok and Winchester Black Talons in it and it fed those too just fine. That thing digested thousands of rounds in its stock configuration just fine.

After awhile, I started taking classes with it and shooting steel matches with it and found that if I shot it all day (typically 400 rounds or so) I'd have really chewed up hands. I also got made fun of for shooting a stock 1911. All the cool kids told me I needed a beavertail grip safety so off to Don Williams at the Action Works it went for a Chip McCormick beavertail grip safety, STI hammer, Novak sight, an Ed Brown thumb safety and a Greider trigger. It came back and had a hiccup or two (which it never had in stock form) and I had to send it back to him for a little more massaging. I decided to add stippling to the front strap (should have had him raise the it, but I didn’t know any better) while it was there and had him "lower and flare the ejection port."

The gun stayed that way until the mid-2000's when I decided it needed a light rail (remember the cool kid influence). Dawson had just rolled out their bolt-on so off to Dawson it went where they drilled and tapped the dustcover and added one. Combined with the SUPER bright (and super cool) new Surefire X200 in a Safariland 6260 and I thought I had the most bitchin setup there was to be had.

Then I decided I needed a new rear sight. MARS Armament just came into existence so I packaged up my gun and off it went to him for a modified Yost-Bonitz rear sight. He also added an EGW barrel bushing at my request (this must have been around 2008 or so).

In 2009, the gun was retired from duty use (replaced by another 1911) and has since served as my backup gun for training.

At some point around 2012 I decided the Dawson rail was dumb and removed it.

I cracked the factory firing pin stop in 2018 or so and added one of John Harrison's units to the gun.

I've had that gun over twenty years. It's been re-blued several times. It looks like absolute heck right now, but it shoots just fine (I owe it a new barrel and a refresh that I keep putting off). To be quite honest, it taught me a lot about 1911's (I've owned dozens since I bought it and have probably spent enough money on them over the years to buy a small house in the midwest). This is the typical evolution of the dedicated 1911 user.

I would have NO PROBLEM buying a Colt in the 1911A1 setup and running it, but my expectations would be that it is a GI spec gun. It will make your hand sore during extended range sessions, will have mediocre sights, and not have the extra “stuff” we’ve come to think are standard in a 1911.

A lifetime into playing with 1911’s and I know exactly what I want in one. I know what works for me and what doesn’t. I know how to fix it when it breaks and I know what work I’m capable of performing myself and what I need someone with more skill than me (and a mill) to do.

My experience as well on a smaller scale. I haven't had my Colt super as long and probably not as many rounds [close to 10,000]. It has slowly changed over the years, razor edges removed, refinished once, standard grip safety tuned for 1/2 way disengagement, new sights, Harrison thumb safety and a Brown drop in 9mm barrel. It looks like heck right now and I detected a little surface rust on the bare metal spots worn by use and a kydex holster. The thing just runs and runs..

[MandoWookie]

I'm seeing at the low end of the market a lot of imports, brands like Tisas and SDS , and obviously the Rock Islands.
My assumption is that these are trash, exception possibly being RIA, is that impression wrong?

[theJanitor]

I'm seeing at the low end of the market a lot of imports, brands like Tisas and SDS , and obviously the Rock Islands.
My assumption is that these are trash, exception possibly being RIA, is that impression wrong?


If you shoot it enough, at some point you will want to make changes to the pistol. It's inevitable. So buy a brand that you will want to keep, as over time, the frame and slide will be parts of the original gun you'll keep. In that vein, I'd only buy the Colt and Springfield brands if I were looking for a basic 1911.

If you're going to be the stalwart that shoots a stock pistol enough, it would be for nostalgia. And you would buy the colt to begin with.

For this reason, none of those other brands have any appeal to me, even if they function well. I am a 1911 snob, though, so keep that in mind.

[MandoWookie]

If you shoot it enough, at some point you will want to make changes to the pistol. It's inevitable. So buy a brand that you will want to keep, as over time, the frame and slide will be parts of the original gun you'll keep. In that vein, I'd only buy the Colt and Springfield brands if I were looking for a basic 1911.

If you're going to be the stalwart that shoots a stock pistol enough, it would be for nostalgia. And you would buy the colt to begin with.

For this reason, none of those other brands have any appeal to me, even if they function well. I am a 1911 snob, though, so keep that in mind.

Oh I'm aware. I have another thread on here about my fathers Rock Island having its front sight eject, and the troubles of getting a replacement.

But the low end of the market is something that hasn't been covered much in this thread, so I was curious.
Also the Kimber Historical Society discussion seems to have stalled the thread, and doesn't talk much about current production Kimbers, so was about as productive as most forum discussions when Kimber is brought up.

[HCM]

I'm seeing at the low end of the market a lot of imports, brands like Tisas and SDS , and obviously the Rock Islands.
My assumption is that these are trash, exception possibly being RIA, is that impression wrong?

That impression is correct. If you want a GI style 1911 to plink with using ball ammo (only) in .45 or .38 super RIA is ok. It won’t have the durability of a Colt or Springfield but it’ll be ok if you are realistic about what it is (and is not).

The rest are trash.

Ruger and Springfield are pretty much the starting point for any sort of serious use 1911.

[MandoWookie]

That impression is correct. If you want a GI style 1911 to plink with using ball ammo (only) in .45 or .38 super RIA is ok. It won’t have the durability of a Colt or Springfield but it’ll be ok if you are realistic about what it is (and is not).

The rest are trash.

Ruger and Springfield are pretty much the starting point for any sort of serious use 1911.

That brings up another question I'm hazy on, what determines durability?
I would think at the low end, the major issues would be lack of build quality and QC, and maybe questionable materials for small parts.
But is it more than that? What makes a good 'base gun'?

I would think if you are setting out to customize a factory gun, the cheaper the better, otherwise why not just buy the better gun up front?

[HCM]

That brings up another question I'm hazy on, what determines durability?
I would think at the low end, the major issues would be lack of build quality and QC, and maybe questionable materials for small parts.
But is it more than that? What makes a good 'base gun'?



Since this is 1911 vs 1911 design is not a factor. In this case it's mostly a function of materials. Build quality/tolerance/fit issues can cause damage which could effect durability.

A good base gun needs to be made of high quality materials and have reasonably good build quality / tolerances. Tolerances and build quality can be improved later if the foundation is solid.


I would think if you are setting out to customize a factory gun, the cheaper the better, otherwise why not just buy the better gun up front?

Customizing a turd is a waste of time, money and effort. You just wind up with a gold plated turd.

The 1911 comes from a time when machine time was expensive and skilled labor was cheap. The skilled labor to work on 1911's is no longer cheap.

It's cheaper in the Philippines than the U.S. which is why the RIA guns are better than others in their class but there's no such thing as free lunch.

[KevH]

That brings up another question I'm hazy on, what determines durability?
I would think at the low end, the major issues would be lack of build quality and QC, and maybe questionable materials for small parts.
But is it more than that? What makes a good 'base gun'?

I would think if you are setting out to customize a factory gun, the cheaper the better, otherwise why not just buy the better gun up front?

That's actually a somewhat complex question. When talking about "base gun" it depends on what you want it to be a base for.

I like Colts because generally speaking (not talking about guns made in the late 1980's...not Colt's finest years) the frame and slide are made to standard spec out of forgings. For the most part Colt does all the nuanced machining, such as the proper "J" cut on the slide and VIS (vertical impact surface) in the frame. I don't care for some of their small parts and sometimes they need fitting, and there is always the chance of running into a machining goof (there were some slides with off center guide rod holes some years back), but generally the slide, frame and barrel are quite good. The "Wiley Clapp" series with Pete Single checkering were an absolute steal at their original price. So in summary, when talking about "base gun" it's the bones of the pistol that I care about (a nice rollmark is a bonus). I could care less about how a thumb safety is fit or anything like that.

When it comes to Kimber their pre-Series II slides, frames and barrels were all quite good and well fit from the factory. It's the small parts that as they produced more guns became less good. Springfield's frames and slides are also quite nice although they employ a two-piece barrel which is neither here nor there (some hate them, most don't care...I would replace it with a Kart anyway). Early Springfields had an "out of spec" (read that as different) shaped frame...that was resolved by the early 2000's. Some like Caspian stuff, some don't. Some like the stuff Remsport makes, some don't. It's best to talk the smith that is going to be working on the gun and see what he prefers.

When you talk about "build quality" or "fit and finish" on a complete gun that you plan to use "as is" or with very little modification that's a whole different matter. I have had loose as a goose rattly Colts and Springfields that are 100% reliable...meaning they go bang every single time from every type of magazine with every shaped bullet...clean or dirty. They may have edges sharp enough to shave with, and the small parts look like they were cobbled together haphazard, a really spotty parkerized finish, and sound like a rusty coffee can full of nails, but they work.

Pick up a Wilson or Nighthawk pistol and compare them to Springfield Loaded or similar and the difference will be readily apparent. The slide will feel like it's on ball bearings, there isn't a sharp edge in sight and the trigger pull will be a crisp 4 lbs. They make the reliable Colt feel...well...second rate.

Then pick up a gun like my John Jardine Colt or a gun built by John Harrison, Chuck Rogers, Bob Marvel or any of the true custom pistol smiths. Oh man, once you've felt guns like that and looked inside at their internals suddenly Wilson and Nighthawk look...well...bland. When I take my Jardine gun apart and look at the little things, especially one-off custom fabricated small parts and things like the barrel which is custom made to his spec by Kart (as opposed to being an off the shelf Kart product) you realize you're on an entire different level. Take some time and look at the lines on Jason Burton gun and appreciate how many hours it took and you begin to understand the price. There is a way of setting up the trigger on a 1911 with almost zero reset that only guys like Jardine and Rogers seem to know how to do (the exception being one of Ken Hackathorn's personal Wilsons I shot a few years back...same type of trigger pull/reset). Guns in this range cost what they do and are rare because they are on a whole different level.

If the goal is to pull the trigger and have the gun go bang every time with every type of ammunition and consistent accuracy a rattly sub-$1000 Colt or Springfield is likely perfectly capable of doing that...to a certain extent. As the time put into the gun goes up (generally with the cost) things tend to get nice and "fit and finish" get better. MIM/cast doesn't necessarily mean "bad" as the internet has loved to extol for the past twenty years. There are some very good MIM and cast parts out there and on something like a grip safety they do just fine. Hell, the Colt MIM sears are actually quite good. My advice is be realistic about what you want the gun for, what you expect out of it and what your budget is like.

[KevH]

...one other thing.

I see folks on the interwebs these days talking about "resale value."

This has never been my consideration when having a gunsmith work on a gun. Once I do that, I'm generally keeping it forever.

Just know you are never going to get your money back "flipping" a 1911 unless you bought a Vickers back in the 1990's or something like that.

For the OP, just be honest with yourself about what your intended use for the pistol is going to be. There was a guy I worked with (he just retired last year) who ran an original Kimber (Clackamas-marked with the big letter roll mark on the ejection port side). This was one of our department's primary firearms instructors and SWAT team leaders and a hell of a good shot. He ran that gun hard for over twenty years. When the thumb safety wore out, he had a new one fit. When he decided he wanted a different rear sight, he had a new one fitted. He decided at one point he wanted a magwell, so an S&A one went on. I know at some point he had a King's bushing added.

That gun had honest wear and was run hard and held up. Considering he paid less than $600 for it back in the day I would say he more than got his money's worth out of it. He owns a bunch of other really nice 1911's, but that Kimber rode to work with him every day.

Carrying a 1911 in 2021 is not an exercise of logic, but of love. You can only be so scientific in how you analyze this decision.

[CSW]

Carrying a 1911 in 2021 is not an exercise of logic, but of love.

That's great. Kudos sir, kudos.

[rob_s]

I would think if you are setting out to customize a factory gun, the cheaper the better, otherwise why not just buy the better gun up front?

In 2009, that was the idea behind having my Yost-Bonitz 1* Enhanced (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?41693-Yost-Bonitz-1*-Enhanced-on-Springfield-milspec-1600-shipped) pistol built on a Springfield rather than a Colt. Well, that and the fact that the Colt guns were harder to source at the time, IIRC.

From what I can tell looking at the old build sheet, the only Springfield parts that remained were the slide, frame, and barrel, and some of the smaller parts like the guide rod, spring, mainspring housing and spring, etc. so my thought at the time was “why spend a bunch more money for a Colt frame and slide?

[revchuck38]

If you want a GI style 1911 to plink with using ball ammo (only) in .45 or .38 super RIA is ok. It won’t have the durability of a Colt or Springfield but it’ll be ok if you are realistic about what it is (and is not).

This is good to know. I've always wanted a single stack 1911 in .38 Stupid, because reasons. Replace the sights, whack the hammer so I can install the old Pachmayr grip safety, get an arched MSH and long trigger from Numrich, and load up some coated 160-grain RNLs (again because reasons) to just under Major, and plink at the range.

[HCM]

This is good to know. I've always wanted a single stack 1911 in .38 Stupid, because reasons. Replace the sights, whack the hammer so I can install the old Pachmayr grip safety, get an arched MSH and long trigger from Numrich, and load up some coated 160-grain RNLs (again because reasons) to just under Major, and plink at the range.

This is what I meant about if being realistic.

The gun will run as-is with factory FMJ or equivalent ammo which is 125 -130 grain FMJ. The more you deviate from that formula the greater the odds of issues.

The gun may run with heavier LRN ammo or it may not. But 160 grain lead handloads aren’t factory FMJ so if it doesn’t run with them don’t complain.

Same with modifying the gun. It may be fine but if the mods cause issues, don’t complain.

I’d be more willing to roll the dice on a gun that’s strictly a plinker.

[HCM]

There seems to be a spell that 1911s and 2011s put on people. We also see it to a lesser extent with Glocks and AR’s.

People get a factory gun that functions 100% with the factory ammo it was designed for, as a system, then they gut the gun, replace 1/2 the parts with random aftermarket parts, use non standard ammo etc then wonder why their gun doesn’t work.

[revchuck38]

The gun may run with heavier LRN ammo or it may not. But 160 grain lead handloads aren’t factory FMJ so if it doesn’t run with them don’t complain.

I wouldn't complain, but I'd damned sure whine. :) Whining is an integral part of the 1911 experience!

I'd make sure it ran with factory hardball first, then go from there. If I had to stick with factory-equivalent handloads, I would. I can't see the MSH causing issues, or the sights. The grip safety, maybe. I'd just hate to dig that hole in the web of my hand like I did in the Army.

[JAD]

71706

My series 1 saw mid five figures of all kinds of ammo, and eventually was gifted to a friend who lacked the means to acquire his first 1911. I believe I replaced the slide stop at some point though I don't recall why. I did stake the plunger tube. Other than that it's still a fantastically reliable, accurate weapon that cost me less than Glock money new.

[CSW]

There seems to be a spell that 1911s and 2011s put on people. We also see it to a lesser extent with Glocks and AR’s.

People get a factory gun that functions 100% with the factory ammo it was designed for, as a system, then they gut the gun, replace 1/2 the parts with random aftermarket parts, use non standard ammo etc then wonder why their gun doesn’t work.

This!

The only thing that I change are the crappy rear sights, to the 10-8 140 rear.
Everything else stays as is, and I learn the nuances of the pistol.

[Robinson]

There seems to be a spell that 1911s and 2011s put on people. We also see it to a lesser extent with Glocks and AR’s.

People get a factory gun that functions 100% with the factory ammo it was designed for, as a system, then they gut the gun, replace 1/2 the parts with random aftermarket parts, use non standard ammo etc then wonder why their gun doesn’t work.

Agree. I will add that once a person has spent sufficient time with a gun (or type) to learn what parts they prefer to swap out, and do so judiciously, that it can in some cases make a good gun better. I have in many cases replaced things like main spring housings and safeties on 1911s. Some fitting is often required in cases like that. And also I recently installed a minus connector in a G17 based on advice I was given here.

But I don't think those are the cases you are referring to.

[Robinson]

double post

[Exiledviking]

Then pick up a gun like my John Jardine Colt or a gun built by John Harrison, Chuck Rogers, Bob Marvel or any of the true custom pistol smiths. Oh man, once you've felt guns like that and looked inside at their internals suddenly Wilson and Nighthawk look...well...bland. When I take my Jardine gun apart and look at the little things, especially one-off custom fabricated small parts and things like the barrel which is custom made to his spec by Kart (as opposed to being an off the shelf Kart product) you realize you're on an entire different level.

I agree. I'm fortunate enough to have owned a Wilson CQB and Springfield Pro in the past and have fired my friend's Ed Brown 1911s, but all paled in comparison to the Jardine Springfield 1911 I got to shoot and handle that belongs to another friend. I decided at that moment that I'd own a Jardine 1911 sooner or later. Every time I think of that Jardine, the term that comes to mind is smooth.

[theJanitor]

To the OP: To answer your question about the "current state of the 1911", I'll say that I look at every non-custom pistol as a "base gun". That goes for box stock colts, to Nighthawks, and the like. Sometimes I'll pay up front and the modifications are minor and cheap. Sometimes I'll buy a cheap gun and spend serious dough to get to the same end statestate. Unless it's some sort of collectible, it get modified to satisfy my needs

[Stephanie B]

QUOTE=MandoWookie;1223483]But the low end of the market is something that hasn't been covered much in this thread, so I was curious.[/QUOTE]

I picked up an AO .45 before the insanity got going. It has an Ed Brown barrel, a parkerized frame and a blued slide that is not marked like an AO gun. The price was attractive. 200 hardball rounds through it and it hasn't bobbled.

I bought the gun so I could try things with it. If I do something wrong and mess it up, it'll be OK.

[MandoWookie]

What is the prevailing opinion aluminum frames? Perusing Dan Wessons site (man they have trimmed down their catalog, at least compared to what I recall in 2019), I see that their Vigil series is aluminum framed, according to the description, specifically for cost reduction. Still an attractive package though.
What are the benefits and downsides of alloy frames?

[fatdog]

I have a Vigil and like it a lot. Downside = more recoil and slower shot recovery. Benefit = lighter weight and much easier to carry all day.

I have heard the claim that the alloy 1911's "are not durable enough" for the last 40 years but never experienced a problem or seen a crack with Colt, S&W, or DW frames. No I am not going to put 50K rounds down range in this gun. I do most practice with a steel frame and only carry the polymer or alluminum frame guns. I am sure that will get me kiltindastreetz at some point.

[Bergeron]

If aluminum frame rails are concerning, but the weight reduction is appealing, then Accu-Rails on an aluminum frame gun appear to offer a turnkey sort of a solution.

[HCM]

What is the prevailing opinion aluminum frames? Perusing Dan Wessons site (man they have trimmed down their catalog, at least compared to what I recall in 2019), I see that their Vigil series is aluminum framed, according to the description, specifically for cost reduction. Still an attractive package though.
What are the benefits and downsides of alloy frames?


I have a Vigil and like it a lot. Downside = more recoil and slower shot recovery. Benefit = lighter weight and much easier to carry all day.

I have heard the claim that the alloy 1911's "are not durable enough" for the last 40 years but never experienced a problem or seen a crack with Colt, S&W, or DW frames. No I am not going to put 50K rounds down range in this gun. I do most practice with a steel frame and only carry the polymer or alluminum frame guns. I am sure that will get me kiltindastreetz at some point.

Aluminum frames may be less durable but aluminum alloys have come a long way since the 1950s, if you are changing recoils springs like you should it should be fine.

My real concern is the more you deviate from the original formula if 5” steel gun in 45 the more chance of issues. The lighter weight frame can effect the timing and function of the gun.

I recall we had a member here (@JodyH) whose lightweight Govt had issues with 8 round mags which had worked in other guns. I believe Jason Burton recommend he return to 7 round mags (and recommend 7 round mags for KW guns in general. The lighter weight frame affected the operational or timing window of the gun just enough that it would work with seven round magazines but not with eight rounders.

It’s kind of like the discussion about the operating window of the Glock 48 and the other G 43 recoil spring assembly guns. They’re not bad guns but they have a narrower Operating window and the more you deviate from stock form the smaller that window gets. It doesn’t mean those guns can’t be made to work but you have to factor that in when deciding if you wanna make changes and you have to Re-vet the gun after those changes are made.

[Amp]

I'm looking very hard at a 5" Vigil in .45ACP. The only thing holding me back is that it has a ramped barrel and in .45ACP 1911s the feed ramp tends to be steeper than a traditional non-ramped barrel. That said, I have a buddy who has one and it has run 100% using Wilson Combat ETMs shooting a variety of ammo.

LAV says he prefers a ramped barrel in an aluminum frame pistol as it prevents the feed ramped getting chewed up and if the gun is set up right, it shouldn't be an issue.

[JAD]

What is the prevailing opinion aluminum frames? Perusing Dan Wessons site (man they have trimmed down their catalog, at least compared to what I recall in 2019), I see that their Vigil series is aluminum framed, according to the description, specifically for cost reduction. Still an attractive package though.
What are the benefits and downsides of alloy frames?

I strongly prefer the lightweight commander format. I have lots, and have put lots of rounds through them, and have not seen a penalty in either reliability or longevity. They do make it a little harder to get the frame customized, if you start with a smooth frontstrap or a beavertail you don't like, as refinishing is less trivial. Still no big deal.

There is no more carry friendly service pistol than the lightweight commander in .45ACP. Frickin' love them.

With respect to split speeds and recoil, here's a sub six with a .38S LWC with my craptacular reload speed:
https://youtu.be/RugZcmxq9eY

Here's the pistol.
71712

I can't do a lot better with a G17.

[rob_s]

Compact aluminum frame with 4.25" barrel is my favorite. I had a Kimber like that (MIM and all! gasp!) that I carried a LOT and shot enough to be confident in the reliability with the 230g Hyrdrashocks I was carrying in it.

I even carried a spare 8 round mag without any kind of stopper on it and never had an over-insertion stoppage that everyone on the internet at the time told me was inevitable.

Never lost one gunfight with that gun! :p

[newyork]

Does that give significant recoil compared to a steel govt? In 45.

[CSW]

What is the prevailing opinion aluminum frames? Perusing Dan Wessons site (man they have trimmed down their catalog, at least compared to what I recall in 2019), I see that their Vigil series is aluminum framed, according to the description, specifically for cost reduction. Still an attractive package though.
What are the benefits and downsides of alloy frames?

Had a Springfield lightweight champion in 45acp, aluminum frame, keep it lubed, and it ran flawlessly.
Now both of the Range Officers [9mm's] are the lightweight Champions, lubed and run without any problems as well.
No signs of wear or galling.

[KevH]

What is the prevailing opinion aluminum frames? Perusing Dan Wessons site (man they have trimmed down their catalog, at least compared to what I recall in 2019), I see that their Vigil series is aluminum framed, according to the description, specifically for cost reduction. Still an attractive package though.
What are the benefits and downsides of alloy frames?

...and Bergeron

The wear on aluminum framed 1911's generally occur in three places:
1) Slide stop hole in the frame in the form of a crack
2) The rails above the slide stop lug window in the form of a crack
3) The feedramp in the form of pits and other wear caused by bullet impact or steel magazine followers

#1 can (and often does) crack on a steel framed gun as well. Too much spring or not enough generally causes this crack over time with use. Just think about how much force gets exerted against a 1911's slide stop pin. If the hole or the pin itself is at all oblong or is too loose under recoil it's going to have quite a bit of movement and batter the frame.

#2 is easily cut out and many modern 1911's come with this area removed

#3 is solved by either a ramped barrel or by a steel frame insert like the one EGW makes (Ed Brown's lightweight frames actually come with this) and using magazines with a follower skirt


To me the weight part of the 1911 is caused more by the ammo than by the frame material (the exception being a frame with a lightrail on the dusctover). There is a significant felt difference between carrying a 45 ACP than a 9mm. Why?

My work requires "at least 36 rounds of ammo on the officer's person." That loadout on a 45 ACP 1911 is typically 41 rounds of 230 gr 45 ACP (1+1 mag in the gun and four mags in a quad magpouch = 21.55 oz of just bullet weight). Since the 9mm 1911 holds more rounds most guys carry 1+1 mag in the gun and three extra magazines =11.62 oz. of bullet weight minus the weight of an extra magazine.

I ordered a Wilson Combat 5" 1911 9mm with a lightweight frame, fluted barrel, and aluminum magwell. I plan to carry it with 1 mag in the gun (1+10) and two extra magazines on my belt (10+10) equaling 31 rounds of 9mm. Combined with my 5 shot 340Sc that I carry as a backup that gives me 36 rounds of ammo on my person in a very lightweight setup. It is SIGNIFICANTLY lighter than carrying a 5" steel 45 ACP with five loaded Wilson 47D magazines (my long carried setup). That's 21.55 oz of bullet weight compared to 8.78 oz. It's actually less since the 9mm components weigh less and so does the leather gear required to carry the extra magazines.

[Elwin]

Good to know RE the Ed Brown frames having steel inserts. If my EVO KV9 continues to work out I’ll likely want the lightweight version of it at some point, and the non-ramped barrel in an aluminum frame was my one concern.

[M2CattleCo]

Aluminum frames may be less durable but aluminum alloys have come a long way since the 1950s, if you are changing recoils springs like you should it should be fine.

My real concern is the more you deviate from the original formula if 5” steel gun in 45 the more chance of issues. The lighter weight frame can effect the timing and function of the gun.

I recall we had a member here (@JodyH) whose lightweight Govt had issues with 8 round mags which had worked in other guns. I believe Jason Burton recommend he return to 7 round mags (and recommend 7 round mags for KW guns in general. The lighter weight frame affected the operational or timing window of the gun just enough that it would work with seven round magazines but not with eight rounders.

It’s kind of like the discussion about the operating window of the Glock 48 and the other G 43 recoil spring assembly guns. They’re not bad guns but they have a narrower Operating window and the more you deviate from stock form the smaller that window gets. It doesn’t mean those guns can’t be made to work but you have to factor that in when deciding if you wanna make changes and you have to Re-vet the gun after those changes are made.

The timing of a 1911 is set by the barrel fit. You could shoot it without a recoil spring and timing would not be affected.

The lightweight and short barrel guns don’t do well with 8 round mags because they’re prone to inertia feeding.

[HCM]

The timing of a 1911 is set by the barrel fit. You could shoot it without a recoil spring and timing would not be affected.

The lightweight and short barrel guns don’t do well with 8 round mags because they’re prone to inertia feeding.

Good to know. Still a second order effect of deviating from the base system, in this case 5” Steel frame in 45/38s

[Chuck Whitlock]

Does that give significant recoil compared to a steel govt? In 45.


Had a Springfield lightweight champion in 45acp, aluminum frame, keep it lubed, and it ran flawlessly.
Now both of the Range Officers [9mm's] are the lightweight Champions, lubed and run without any problems as well.
No signs of wear or galling.

My dad traded a steel Colt 1991A1 Commander for a LW Champion, both in .45 ACP. Counterintuitively, The Champion has less felt recoil than the all-steel Colt did. I believe that it has to do with the dual recoil spring set up in the Springfield.


...
To me the weight part of the 1911 is caused more by the ammo than by the frame material (the exception being a frame with a lightrail on the dusctover). There is a significant felt difference between carrying a 45 ACP than a 9mm. Why?

I've noticed the same thing. Most of the weight of my Ruger Commander goes away when I eject the mag of 8 230 grainers. My 9- and 10-round 9mm magazines of 124 grain shells are significantly lighter.

I've also noticed that carry mode plays a factor. I prefer the LW frames OWB, but steel frames IWB aren't a real bother. I guess the extra weight is just supported better IWB.

[JAD]

The timing of a 1911 is set by the barrel fit. You could shoot it without a recoil spring and timing would not be affected.

The lightweight and short barrel guns don’t do well with 8 round mags because they’re prone to inertia feeding.
Mine do.

[JAD]

Compact aluminum frame with 4.25" barrel is my favorite. I had a Kimber like that (MIM and all! gasp!) that I carried a LOT and shot enough to be confident in the reliability with the 230g Hyrdrashocks I was carrying in it.

I even carried a spare 8 round mag without any kind of stopper on it and never had an over-insertion stoppage that everyone on the internet at the time told me was inevitable.

Never lost one gunfight with that gun! :p

Dan Wesson’s CCO is that (though 4” and ramped). I routinely feed it government-length 8 round mags.

[JAD]

Does that give significant recoil compared to a steel govt? In 45.
Interestingly I just spent one day of a 5 day class shooting a steel commander (45) and four with a CCO. I would not say the recoil difference was substantial. I am 50 but do not have arthritis yet.

[rob_s]

Dan Wesson’s CCO is that (though 4” and ramped). I routinely feed it government-length 8 round mags.

Id rather have this.

4.25” with a bushing.

https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/vigil-cco/

[theJanitor]

Dan Wesson’s CCO is that (though 4” and ramped). I routinely feed it government-length 8 round mags.

I'm using 8rd mags in my LW Colt CCO without issue, but I'm shooting 185gr Silvertips

[newyork]

Interestingly I just spent one day of a 5 day class shooting a steel commander (45) and four with a CCO. I would not say the recoil difference was substantial. I am 50 but do not have arthritis yet.

That’s surprising

[MandoWookie]

What companies generally produce guns that are deburred from the factory? IE, least likely to have sharp edges on the main controls like safety and grip safety?
And which ones have the reputation of being Gillette razor sharp?

[JAD]

That’s surprising
Yes, I’m really due for arthritis.

[JAD]

Id rather have this.

4.25” with a bushing.

https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/vigil-cco/
Yes. I’d also prefer its 25lpi to my 2015 CCO’s golf ball treatment.

[TC215]

Yes. I’d also prefer its 25lpi to my 2015 CCO’s golf ball treatment.

When I had DW build me a custom CCO, I had them do it with 25lpi checkering (this was before the Vigil was an option). I was never a fan of the chain link pattern they used on the old CCO.

[newyork]

Yes, I’m really due for arthritis.

Haha I meant that the lw had no more recoil.

[CSW]

Yes, I’m really due for arthritis.

I sure hope not.

I switched from the great 45 to the 9mm in 95% of my pistols because of the pain in my hands the next day.
9 milli in the 1911 platform is really a soft shooter. Add the dual recoil spring setup, and it's win-win.

[rob_s]

I sure hope not.

I switched from the great 45 to the 9mm in 95% of my pistols because of the pain in my hands the next day.
9 milli in the 1911 platform is really a soft shooter. Add the dual recoil spring setup, and it's win-win.

Even 10+ years ago when I was into 1911s I started loading 200 grain LSWC because (a) I love what a LSWC does to a cardboard IDPA or USPSA target and (b) I was loading them to just break power factor to keep the recoil as soft as possible. Once I did the latter it was much, much, better for my damaged right arm.

The I found someone that would load them my way for me and I got out of the reloading game altogether.

[M2CattleCo]

My years of 45 beat the hell outta my right hand.

I had a few aluminum framed guns and I always thought the aluminum damped recoil better than the steel.

[Stephanie B]

Even 10+ years ago when I was into 1911s I started loading 200 grain LSWC because (a) I love what a LSWC does to a cardboard IDPA or USPSA target and (b) I was loading them to just break power factor to keep the recoil as soft as possible. Once I did the latter it was much, much, better for my damaged right arm.

The I found someone that would load them my way for me and I got out of the reloading game altogether.

I think Wilson sells them as loaded ammo.

[rob_s]

I think Wilson sells them as loaded ammo.

that's good to know.

Back then, anyway, the biggest challenge was finding someone that was loading at the lower velocities I wanted. Lots of ammo was available but most of it was "faster" than I wanted, or needed for my physical issue with my arm.

[Exiledviking]

My years of 45 beat the hell outta my right hand.

I had a few aluminum framed guns and I always thought the aluminum damped recoil better than the steel.That's interesting! I had a Scandium framed S&W Commander size 1911 that I swear had less felt recoil than my all steel Combat Commander and similar or slightly less than the full-size all steel 1911s. I wish I hadn't sold that one.
IIRC, supposedly the Scandium makes the aluminum a little elastic and perhaps this helps reduce the felt recoil.

[Rmiked]

What companies generally produce guns that are deburred from the factory? IE, least likely to have sharp edges on the main controls like safety and grip safety?
And which ones have the reputation of being Gillette razor sharp?

My Dan Wesson Specialist has very comfortable controls (safety and grip safety). Also the leading edges of the rail are chamfered nicely such that it does not cut leather being holstered.

[MandoWookie]

I think for my needs and wants I'm starting to lean toward either the Ruger SR1911 or S&W E-series on the low end , and the Dan Wesson Vigil on the high end. Range queen with carry capability if required, with all the basic upgrades. Edit to Add: Does Dan Wesson do actual Novak sight cuts, or is it pseudo-Novaks?

Big question then is magazines. How much voodoo is involved with magazine selection?

[Robinson]

Big question then is magazines. How much voodoo is involved with magazine selection?

Magazines -- it depends on the caliber. If you buy a 45, then there are a lot of magazines on the market that will probably work fine. The Wilson Combat model 47 7-round magazine is one that a lot of people consider a "gold standard". But you can buy some nicely priced magazines from Brownell's that will probably work fine too. For 8-round mags the 47D works great as long as the springs hold out, but the Wilson ETM may be a better option. Chip McCormick, Ed Brown, Metalform, Tripp, all make mags that should work in a 45.

I have a bunch of Ed Brown 8-rounders for practice, but my carry 1911 is loaded 7+1 with a Wilson Combat 47.


Range queen with carry capability if required, with all the basic upgrades.

Huh?

[MandoWookie]

Huh?

Not intended as primarily a practical gun, mainly for fun at the range, but can be pressed into the carry role if needed. I have a brace of Glocks for practical carry requirements, a 1911 is entirely a luxury "passion of the gun" purchase. And by basic upgrades, I mean better sights, and extended bevertail and safety over GI pattern.

[KevH]

MandoWookie Robinson

Some guns are magazine sensitive. I've had guns that only want to work 100% with older CMC Powermags and some that wanted Wilsons. Most properly setup guns work with anything.

I like the Wilson 8 round 47D's with the thin steel baseplate. I change the spring at least every couple years and they work just fine. I've been using them for a couple decades without issue.

I also have no problem with the Wilson 47's, but having the extra round costs me nothing with the 47D so long as you stay up on the springs.

I only use a metal baseplate. The 1911 uses a straight wall magazine and the only thing that prevents over insertion is the baseplate (unless you have tab welded on like the older Wilson 10 rounders). If you over insert a 1911 mag the next stopping point is the ejector or the bottom of the slide. Plastic baseplates flex or the bottom of the frame can cram itself between the lip of a plastic baseplate and the magazine body allowing the magazine to be over inserted. This tends to happen most under stress (precisely when you wouldn't want to to happen) since that's when magazines tend to be slammed home with the most force.

When the Wilson ETM's came out I bought a bunch and had all sorts of problems with them (as did others) locking up the gun. What was happening was the extra long body combined with the plastic baseplate allowed the mag to be over inserted during a nice positive mag seating (the plastic baseplate flexed ever so much). I kept having my slide get caught on the top of the mag body and lock my gun up. Several of us were at a shooting event all using ETM's (because they were new and supposed to be better) when we figured it out. They work just fine once you switch to a metal baseplate, but I find I like the lower profile of the 47D anyway. I've also broken the plastic baseplates on the 47D's in the past. I still have a bunch of ETM's in my range bag, but I'm kinda meh about them.

I prefer having a skirted follower. This is really important if you have an aluminum framed gun, but can also cause you problems with a steel framed gun. The last round out of the magazine can move the follower forward into the frame and cause it to stick. The skirt prevents this. The Kimber/Checkmate design is based off the old Devel design and is actually quite good. The plastic Wilson ones work quite well for me. I've never had a problem with the Tripp mags either, but like I said I prefer the simple 47D.

...oh, and CMC changed their follower design sometime around 2013. I had a bunch of the older CMC Shooting Star and Powermags that worked great and then I bought a batch of CMC Powermags in late 2014. The follower looked the same at first glance, but had a slightly different geometry. I find the older ones work better.

[KevH]

I think for my needs and wants I'm starting to lean toward either the Ruger SR1911 or S&W E-series on the low end , and the Dan Wesson Vigil on the high end. Range queen with carry capability if required, with all the basic upgrades. Edit to Add: Does Dan Wesson do actual Novak sight cuts, or is it pseudo-Novaks?

Big question then is magazines. How much voodoo is involved with magazine selection?

Dude, you're trying to put way too much thought into this. Since you seem to want someone to tell you which way to go here you go:

Just go buy a steel framed 5" Springfield. Ronin, Loaded, Range Officer, Long Beach Operator, it doesn't matter. You shouldn't have to shell out more than $800 even in this market.

They historically have really good customer service if something is wrong with the gun and they use fairly standard parts. The Ruger is probably OK, but they're still fairly new in the 1911 game and they've been having mixed QC issues for the past couple years throughout their whole lineup. The S&W has an external extractor and some other oddities...like a proprietary sight dovetail. Folks seem to really like the Dan Wesson/CZ guns, but they seem to have a rapidly changing lineup in the past year or so and who knows what is going to happen with their Colt marriage.

Springfields are typically readily available (I see them in pretty much every gun store...even in my goofy area), don't cost too much and tend to work. The best part is that everyone stocks parts that will work on them and they're a super known quantity with every decent (and even not decent) 1911 pistol smith.

[MandoWookie]

Dude, you're trying to put way too much thought into this. Since you seem to want someone to tell you which way to go here you go:


First off, no, I am not wanting someone to tell me which way to go.

I was asking for information, on what is a very broad topic, with lots of variables, and lots of frames of reference from different people on the current standing of different options in the market, in the hope that it would encourage discussion and bring more information up that might otherwise not come up in a more limited query based solely on my largely irrelevant personal experience.
And yes I'm overthinking it, because I'm more interested in the discussion at the moment, and improving my understanding of the current state of things, then in the theoretical 'perfect 1911' for my particular use scenario. Because being honest with myself, I dont "need" a 1911 of any flavor, it would not do anything better than any gun I currently own, other than be heavier and hold less ammo.
But it is a gun that I have wanted to own for a long time, despite my limited trigger time on various examples being less than stellar experiences , I still have the desire to own one at some point.
So since it is not critical, why not take the luxury of finding out what I don't know, and hopefully the discussion might provide info to someone else who might be interested in the topic.

[MandoWookie]

MandoWookie Robinson

...oh, and CMC changed their follower design sometime around 2013. I had a bunch of the older CMC Shooting Star and Powermags that worked great and then I bought a batch of CMC Powermags in late 2014. The follower looked the same at first glance, but had a slightly different geometry. I find the older ones work better.

This is all good info, but this in particular is good to know. I've seen CMC recommended alot, but not anything about possible changes. How are the older ones better in your experience? What issues have you run into with the revised follower?

[MandoWookie]

Just go buy a steel framed 5" Springfield. Ronin, Loaded, Range Officer, Long Beach Operator, it doesn't matter. You shouldn't have to shell out more than $800 even in this market.

They historically have really good customer service if something is wrong with the gun and they use fairly standard parts. The Ruger is probably OK, but they're still fairly new in the 1911 game and they've been having mixed QC issues for the past couple years throughout their whole lineup. The S&W has an external extractor and some other oddities...like a proprietary sight dovetail. Folks seem to really like the Dan Wesson/CZ guns, but they seem to have a rapidly changing lineup in the past year or so and who knows what is going to happen with their Colt marriage.

Springfields are typically readily available (I see them in pretty much every gun store...even in my goofy area), don't cost too much and tend to work. The best part is that everyone stocks parts that will work on them and they're a super known quantity with every decent (and even not decent) 1911 pistol smith.

You bring up good points. The Ruger was specifically brought up in the P&S podcast as being a good option, and that podcast was presented as SMEs on the subject, so without any counter to that, I took it as good info.
I also asked about external extractors in general and the S&W on particular, but their wasn't much put forth yet, so I am keeping an open mind.
And Dan Wessons offerings are attractive, but I have noticed their changed lineup, particularly because they discontinued their A2, which is why I started this thread in the first place, because that had essentially been what I had in mind as my 'ideal' 1911, at least for me, at least in theory.
I don't know why I discounted Springfield, other than possibly theassociation with the XD series, which I am not impressed with.

[CSW]

I think for my needs and wants I'm starting to lean toward either the Ruger SR1911 or S&W E-series on the low end , and the Dan Wesson Vigil on the high end. Range queen with carry capability if required, with all the basic upgrades. Edit to Add: Does Dan Wesson do actual Novak sight cuts, or is it pseudo-Novaks?

Big question then is magazines. How much voodoo is involved with magazine selection?

Another +1 for the Ed Brown mags, in 9mm,
Wilson, checkmate and mcgar all have worked fine in the Springfields. Springfield mags cannot be loaded to capacity in 9mm, without choking.
Ed Brown offers a trade in program for any mag, for 10 bucks per.

When I had my Loaded, and lightweight Champ in 45acp, ANY mag worked;
From factory mags, to GI surplus, to high end.

[JAD]

I would skip the low end. I haven’t tried the Rugers but my Springfield RO9 wasn’t good to go — fine for what I paid but skip the drama and get a DW.

Wilson ETMs are fine for carry. I do replace the baseplate with thin steel, not for function but for carry. For practice I like mec gars and metalforms. Avoid checkmate even if they ship with the Dan Wesson.

[rob_s]

Dan Wesson Vigil on the high end. Range queen with carry capability if required, with all the basic upgrades.

I’m following what you’re saying her, and I agree with you about the Vigil. I’d expect it would function well and be reliable for range time (whether plinking or even the occasional match for fun) but the aluminum frame would serve well on the occasion you wanted to carry it. I personally wouldn’t switch between carrying, say, a Glock 99% of the time and then switch to a 1911 on rare occasions when the fancy strokes, but the Vigil would be a fine gun to do so if that’s your jam. A 5in Vigil should do fine as a pen option if it’s going to be your only, and multi-function, 1911.

If you were going to shoot it a lot, in matches, you might be better off with a Pointman (in 9mm (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/pointman-nine-pm-9-2/) IMO, although .45 (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/pointman-45-pm-45-2/) for that semi-wadcutter experience would be damn tempting...).

If you were looking for a nightstand gun, you might be better off with a Specialist (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/specialist/) (In.45, natch).

If you just wanted to carry, and only shoot often, enough to verify function or competence, and the Vigil CCO (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/vigil-cco/) (again in .45 because why anything else?)

[Rmiked]

I’m new to owning 1911s but have handled many. I just purchased the Dan Wesson Specialist in 10 mm, pictures a few posts back. I can’t imagine an action any tighter (absence of play) machined into the frame and slide rails. Admittedly, I have not inspected an Alchemy or Nighthawk but have held and manipulated some Wilson Combat models. I am at 300 rounds following break-in procedures to a tee. Additionally I have manually manipulated the slide (with and without recoil spring) but never allowing the slide to go into battery (slamming home). If I have the barrel and recoil spring out with just slide on frame, I can push slide back and forth with an index finger on each end like glass. Of course if you hit the disconnector there is a bump (to be expected). Since this is my first 1911 I could be easily impressed. But I know “play” when I see it and feel it and this Specialist is amazing. This pistol was not cheap (to me) but it greatly exceeds my expectations. And I was headed toward spending 50-60% of what this cost ($1850, for some reason the 10 mm is more expensive?). The advice I got here on PF is the only reason I started considering spending more $$. Thanks for the advice. I am retired and my 2 adult sons are already trying to figure out who inherits the Specialist. The 3 of us have been shooting Beretta 92s (amazing pistol also) and Glocks. There is something very appealing about a full sized, heavy steel pistol with slim (single stack) grip feel and wonderful trigger and reset offered by a well made 1911.

[MandoWookie]

I’m following what you’re saying her, and I agree with you about the Vigil. I’d expect it would function well and be reliable for range time (whether plinking or even the occasional match for fun) but the aluminum frame would serve well on the occasion you wanted to carry it. I personally wouldn’t switch between carrying, say, a Glock 99% of the time and then switch to a 1911 on rare occasions when the fancy strokes, but the Vigil would be a fine gun to do so if that’s your jam. A 5in Vigil should do fine as a pen option if it’s going to be your only, and multi-function, 1911.

If you were going to shoot it a lot, in matches, you might be better off with a Pointman (in 9mm (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/pointman-nine-pm-9-2/) IMO, although .45 (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/pointman-45-pm-45-2/) for that semi-wadcutter experience would be damn tempting...).

If you were looking for a nightstand gun, you might be better off with a Specialist (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/specialist/) (In.45, natch).

If you just wanted to carry, and only shoot often, enough to verify function or competence, and the Vigil CCO (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/vigil-cco/) (again in .45 because why anything else?)

I don't intend to do a 'carry rotation', but being confident that what I have would work if needed, if for whatever reason the Glocks are not available, is definitely something I value. I will continue the Glock and a J-frame lifestyle without a doubt.

[Tango]

Food for thought...

I definitely agree that one should not waste money on guns from low end manufacturers. Everyone's low end is different though.

I have watched my father's Ruger 1911 over the years. I believe be paid $750-$900 for it brand new about 5-6 years back. He is retired and joins me at the range from time to time. I did the math on rounds through the Ruger at this point and it has seen more rounds than a duty issued weapon at my agency would have seen over the same time frame. No problems, malfunctions or issues. 45ACP 230 grain down the pipe.

When one thinks about the term duty ready, one needs to look at the reality of the tools actual usage.

[M2CattleCo]

Reliability of the whole system has to looked at.

My last foray into 9mm 1911s showed that the gun itself was perfectly reliable, but when you factored in the variables of associated kit, prolonged carry, environment, and rough/vigorous use, the sum of all the components of the whole system equaled an unreliable weapon.

[JSGlock34]

Reliability of the whole system has to looked at.

My last foray into 9mm 1911s showed that the gun itself was perfectly reliable, but when you factored in the variables of associated kit, prolonged carry, environment, and rough/vigorous use, the sum of all the components of the whole system equaled an unreliable weapon.

Concur. My 9mm 1911 was fun to shoot, and it would run, but I assessed it was on the ragged edge of reliability. I can’t see a 9mm 1911 passing any kind of rigorous adverse environmental testing.

[David S.]

Reliability of the whole system has to looked at.

My last foray into 9mm 1911s showed that the gun itself was perfectly reliable, but when you factored in the variables of associated kit, prolonged carry, environment, and rough/vigorous use, the sum of all the components of the whole system equaled an unreliable weapon.

Would you please expand on this?

[Rmiked]

Is the message that we all want the 1911 to be a pistol you can trust your life with because of its place in history. But compared to other formats (like Beretta 92), an occasional FTL or FTE with a 1911, it may not be as trustworthy, if your life depended on it?

[CSW]

Concur. My 9mm 1911 was fun to shoot, and it would run, but I assessed it was on the ragged edge of reliability. I can’t see a 9mm 1911 passing any kind of rigorous adverse environmental testing.

Can you please explain why?
I guess that I am not following your thoughts?

[Willard]

71706

My series 1 saw mid five figures of all kinds of ammo, and eventually was gifted to a friend who lacked the means to acquire his first 1911. I believe I replaced the slide stop at some point though I don't recall why. I did stake the plunger tube. Other than that it's still a fantastically reliable, accurate weapon that cost me less than Glock money new.

What knife is that?

[Tango]

Plenty of 9MM 1911s riding in LEO holsters. Specifically in CA for some reason. I've spent most of my time with P series Sigs, G17s and 1911s in 9MM and 45. The 9MM Dan Wesson Specialist is a tack driver and makes shots that the G17 requires far more work to make. The increased accuracy definitely makes the juice worth the squeeze. I don't baby any of the pistols and they all get treated the same. There is no real difference in carrying, shooting and caring for a 1911 on LEO duty. Good holster, good belt, rock on.

[FNFAN]

I think for my needs and wants I'm starting to lean toward either the Ruger SR1911 or S&W E-series on the low end , and the Dan Wesson Vigil on the high end. Range queen with carry capability if required, with all the basic upgrades. Edit to Add: Does Dan Wesson do actual Novak sight cuts, or is it pseudo-Novaks?

Big question then is magazines. How much voodoo is involved with magazine selection?

I had a very nice Gunsite Smith and it didn’t like any magazine except those that came with it. Neither ETM or Vickers would insert all the way. Very accurate and fed everything I gave it. Between the mag issue and the “have to send it back to the mothership extractor,” it went down the road.

[JAD]

Is the message that we all want the 1911 to be a pistol you can trust your life with because of its place in history. But compared to other formats (like Beretta 92), an occasional FTL or FTE with a 1911, it may not be as trustworthy, if your life depended on it?

Not my experience. My 1911s are as reliable as my other guns.

[rd62]

Didn't TLG put quite a few thousand rounds through 9mm Springfields with good results under a pretty rigorous schedule? Its been a while since I read through the thread so maybe my memory is failing me.

I had my 9mm Colt Commander worked over by Evolution Armory and while I don't have near as many rounds through it yet as my Glocks, its markedly more accurate and is so far proving reliable with a variety of ammo and magazines. For what's invested in it, I could buy a brace of 9mm Glocks though.

My very limited experiences with Colt and Springfield have both been very positive. I feel the value proposition with the Springfield was significantly higher though. I paid more for the Springer up front but in exchange got an already lowered and flared ejection port, extended thumb safety, beaver tail grip safety, Novak sights, etc. All of which I paid Evolution to do for me on the Colt but that and a rampant pony were what I wanted.

I'm seriously considering an Alchemy of some flavor in a full size Gov't model in .45acp for my 45th birthday next year.

[HCM]

Didn't TLG put quite a few thousand rounds through 9mm Springfields with good results under a pretty rigorous schedule? Its been a while since I read through the thread so maybe my memory is failing me.

I had my 9mm Colt Commander worked over by Evolution Armory and while I don't have near as many rounds through it yet as my Glocks, its markedly more accurate and is so far proving reliable with a variety of ammo and magazines. For what's invested in it, I could buy a brace of 9mm Glocks though.

My very limited experiences with Colt and Springfield have both been very positive. I feel the value proposition with the Springfield was significantly higher though. I paid more for the Springer up front but in exchange got an already lowered and flared ejection port, extended thumb safety, beaver tail grip safety, Novak sights, etc. All of which I paid Evolution to do for me on the Colt but that and a rampant pony were what I wanted.

I'm seriously considering an Alchemy of some flavor in a full size Gov't model in .45acp for my 45th birthday next year.

Mixed results. The guns (SA Custom shop 1911s) did well, but not as well as sone more modern guns.

SACS/Warren Reliability at 50,000 Rounds:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8464

It’s worth noting that Todd G’s review of the SACS/Warren guns created quite a demand But those who purchase them from the next batch had multiple problematic guns.

I’m sure Todd’s results were accurate but Springfield’s Achilles’ heel has been inconsistent quality.

Some of my favorite 1911s are Springfields and some of the worst 1911s I’ve had I’ve also been Springfields.

Re: Your Commander - It is probably not much more mechanically accurate than a GEN 5 Glock but it may very well be easier to shoot to its potential than a Glock.

[JAD]

What knife is that?

Spyderco Bob Lum (https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=367). The green scales are unusual.

[Tango]

Mixed results. The guns (SA Custom shop 1911s) did well, but not as well as sone more modern guns.

SACS/Warren Reliability at 50,000 Rounds:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8464

It’s worth noting that Todd G’s review of the SACS/Warren guns created quite a demand But those who purchase them from the next batch had multiple problematic guns.

I’m sure Todd’s results were accurate but Springfield’s Achilles’ heel has been inconsistent quality.

Some of my favorite 1911s are Springfields and some of the worst 1911s I’ve had I’ve also been Springfields.

Re: Your Commander - It is probably not much more mechanically accurate than a GEN 5 Glock but it may very well be easier to shoot to its potential than a Glock.
There in is the difference that sets the 1911 apart in my opinion. The ability to run that thing like a raped ape, with greater accuracy, is a no brainer in my opinion. You have to work at 25 yards to a degree, to get the same accuracy and shot placement on the G17 vs the 9MM Dan Wesson Specialist. The same can also be said that you work less with a G17 at 25 yards in comparison to a P229DAK in 40 S&W.

This is why the Stacatto P has just caught on like wild fire. The size of a G19, capacity galore and the ergonomics and trigger of a 1911.

[rd62]

Re: Your Commander - It is probably not much more mechanically accurate than a GEN 5 Glock but it may very well be easier to shoot to its potential than a Glock.

Touche. I should have said I shoot the 1911 noticeably more accurately. The trigger is a big part of the equation, but the expertly fit Kart barrel and EGW bushing likely don't hurt either. My Glocks are also older Gen 3 G19 and G17 with many miles and thousands of rounds on them compared to the new and tight Colt.

Meant to mention before that I'm liking the couple Mec Gar full size 9mm mags I picked up with the skirted polymer follower and larger base plate (which I prefer). SKU: MGCGOV910AFC

[rd62]

This is why the Stacatto P has just caught on like wild fire. The size of a G19, capacity galore and the ergonomics and trigger of a 1911.

I'd love to try one but am afraid I'd love it too much!

[M2CattleCo]

Would you please expand on this?


Basically the 9mm cartridge is not compatible with the magazine dimensions of a 1911.

[HCM]

There in is the difference that sets the 1911 apart in my opinion. The ability to run that thing like a raped ape, with greater accuracy, is a no brainer in my opinion. You have to work at 25 yards to a degree, to get the same accuracy and shot placement on the G17 vs the 9MM Dan Wesson Specialist. The same can also be said that you work less with a G17 at 25 yards in comparison to a P229DAK in 40 S&W.

This is why the Stacatto P has just caught on like wild fire. The size of a G19, capacity galore and the ergonomics and trigger of a 1911.

I have a Stacatto P - it is the size of a G45 but a little wider. It is definitely a duty holster size and weight gun.

Maybe you are thinking of the Stacatto C2 ?

Personally I find a difference in performance between the Glock and P320 vs the 2011/1911 in 9mm but not a dramatic difference. But then again familiarity counts and I’ve put a lot of work into shooting striker guns well.

I do think the P duo makes more sense as a duty gun than a traditional 1911. Either will require the user to be more aware of lubrication, and preventive maintenance than polymer striker guns.

For institutional use I really like the LAPD/LASD type approach of limiting these guns two people who are capable of shooting their issued weapon well and willing to put in some extra effort such as the LAPD’s 3 day transition school.

[CLaw]

This thought has made me wonder whether the double stack STI mag in its current form is more compatible with the 9mm and therefore a more reliable mousetrap at this point if one wants a 9 mm 1911.


Basically the 9mm cartridge is not compatible with the magazine dimensions of a 1911.

[M2CattleCo]

I don’t know how different the current STI mags are than the ones they were making 10 years ago but the ones from back then were the flaws with double and single stacks all in one magazine.

In my more than decade of competitive shooting I watched almost 100% of 2011 shooters migrate back to single stack, or a CZ, then eventually to an M&P or a Glock 34 if they were really serious about shooting.

The 2011 has been foisted onto the duty/tactical crowd several times and it always ultimately leads right back to a Glock.

[Tango]

I have a Stacatto P - it is the size of a G45 but a little wider. It is definitely a duty holster size and weight gun.

Maybe you are thinking of the Stacatto C2 ?

Personally I find a difference in performance between the Glock and P320 vs the 2011/1911 in 9mm but not a dramatic difference. But then again familiarity counts and I’ve put a lot of work into shooting striker guns well.

I do think the P duo makes more sense as a duty gun than a traditional 1911. Either will require the user to be more aware of lubrication, and preventive maintenance than polymer striker guns.

For institutional use I really like the LAPD/LASD type approach of limiting these guns two people who are capable of shooting their issued weapon well and willing to put in some extra effort such as the LAPD’s 3 day transition school.

I agree with you on several fronts. The LAPD/LASD training system should be mirrored elsewhere. If you can shoot XYZ% with the duty issued weapon and show us you know what you are doing then yes, by all means feel free to pick another flavor of weapon. I disagree with it to an extent because I believe the 1911 is not harder than any other handgun to operate. To me it is plug and play. I see civilians I've trained have no issues going Glock/HK to 1911. A trained LEO should have no problem switching weapons. I would like to see the following. If you shoot 90% and above consistently for 4 quals, then you can show up with a 1911 on qual number 5.

I too have put a tremendous amount of time into shooting striker fired guns. I carry a G17 for work and shoot it pretty well. With that said, the 1911 is easier to use for me and makes shots with less "work" on my part in comparison to a G17 or P229.

Overall, I just look at the 1911 as another tool in the tool box. I happen to believe it is a better tool than other offerings. With the advent of the Stacatto P, I feel the tool's viability has grown to a whole different level. Overall, it is not hard to maintain or shoot. Nor does it need elf souls to run correctly.

[JSGlock34]

Can you please explain why?
I guess that I am not following your thoughts?

There's a few reasons. I agree with M2's comment on adapting the .45 magazine to the 9mm - 9mm 1911 magazines are finicky creatures.

I also found the 9mm 1911 very sensitive to lubrication and fouling which would manifest in reduced slide velocity. The 9mm cartridge already struggles to get the 1911 slide moving (hence the reduced strength recoil springs compared to the original .45). Over an extended firing session, the slide would start to become noticeably sluggish, foreshadowing the malfunctions that would eventually follow. A more frequent maintenance interval can mitigate this issue, but this experience makes me question how the 9mm 1911 would perform in dust, sand, dirt, mud or other environmental conditions that could retard slide movement. I judge that the extra slide velocity imparted by the .45 cartridge makes it more reliable compared to the 9mm version under less than optimal conditions.

There's a reason why the Wilson EDC X9 and Staccato P chop at least half an inch off the slide. Equally significant but less noticeable than the shorter slides are the significantly reduced frame rails on these models, which further reduces friction and keeps the slide moving. Here's what Wilson says about the development of the EDC X9 and their "Enhanced Reliability System".

The EDC X9 slide assembly is from our single stack EDC 9 pistol with Wilson Combat’s ERS “Enhanced Reliability System” for 9mm 1911’s. The ERS is tailored to the varying power level of 9mm ammunition and maintains impressive reliability in all conditions, even when heavily fouled and low on lubrication. Other features include a Tri-Top slide profile with user-replaceable front sight, single lug tapered cone match-grade 1911 barrel, rear Tactical Adjustable Battlesight and a rugged, user-serviceable external extractor.

The "ERS" includes: Robust spring-loaded external extractor that improves extraction in all conditions with all types of ammunition; A match grade, fluted barrel with single lug geometry to reduce cycling friction, enhance slide velocity, and improve feed reliability; Removal of the frame rails around the mag opening to further reduce friction and promote function in adverse shooting environments; A low mass, Tri-Top slide profile for reduced muzzle flip and enhanced cycling; And a user-replaceable front sight and rugged new elevation adjustable Tactical Battlesight with click adjustments to easily adjust vertical point of impact.

The 9mm 1911 is a joy to shoot, accurate, and fun. In my experience, the 1911 is not as reliable in 9mm as it is in the original .45. For me, it's great for the range, but I don't trust it for self-defense use.

[Robinson]

Is the message that we all want the 1911 to be a pistol you can trust your life with because of its place in history. But compared to other formats (like Beretta 92), an occasional FTL or FTE with a 1911, it may not be as trustworthy, if your life depended on it?

The 1911s I have carried have proven reliable. The message should be that the 1911 is not a Glock. Nor is a Glock a 1911. They require different levels of maintenance. I went down the 9mm 1911 rabbit hole a couple times and even though my guns worked properly I always felt like I was one round away from a malfunction. And they were picky about magazines. All of my 45s have been rock solid, and my 38 Supers run fine.

[UNK]

Any input on Les Baer?

As others have already mentioned stay away from Commander length. While he uses govt frames for commander slides he also uses govt recoil plugs. Sometimes putting a commander plug in fixes the problem.
I sold mine. Problem fixed.

[HCM]

I agree with you on several fronts. The LAPD/LASD training system should be mirrored elsewhere. If you can shoot XYZ% with the duty issued weapon and show us you know what you are doing then yes, by all means feel free to pick another flavor of weapon. I disagree with it to an extent because I believe the 1911 is not harder than any other handgun to operate. To me it is plug and play. I see civilians I've trained have no issues going Glock/HK to 1911. A trained LEO should have no problem switching weapons. I would like to see the following. If you shoot 90% and above consistently for 4 quals, then you can show up with a 1911 on qual number 5.

I too have put a tremendous amount of time into shooting striker fired guns. I carry a G17 for work and shoot it pretty well. With that said, the 1911 is easier to use for me and makes shots with less "work" on my part in comparison to a G17 or P229.

Overall, I just look at the 1911 as another tool in the tool box. I happen to believe it is a better tool than other offerings. With the advent of the Stacatto P, I feel the tool's viability has grown to a whole different level. Overall, it is not hard to maintain or shoot. Nor does it need elf souls to run correctly.

The 1911/2011 isn't any harder to shoot other than training to operate the safety consistently. But most LEO's will not get enough training time to make that happen unless they learn it in their initial academy training or practice it on their own which is where the selective population comes in. The 1911/2011 does require more care and attention to lubrication and maintenance, again that is where the selective population comes in. IME the "non-gun" LEOs had trouble keeping P229 DAKs lubricated quarter to quarter.

I like to say I'm like John Lennon, I'm an artist, you can give me a tuba and I'll get you something out of it but even I have a small dip in performance switching platforms. Both SIG/SIG and Glock/Glock shooters will generally out perform mixed platform shooters.
This has held true with both the P229 DAK and the 320. The mixed platform shooters may qualify but they will usually shoot one platform noticeably better than the other and shoot below single platform shooters.

[TGS]

I don’t know how different the current STI mags are than the ones they were making 10 years ago but the ones from back then were the flaws with double and single stacks all in one magazine.

In my more than decade of competitive shooting I watched almost 100% of 2011 shooters migrate back to single stack, or a CZ, then eventually to an M&P or a Glock 34 if they were really serious about shooting.

The 2011 has been foisted onto the duty/tactical crowd several times and it always ultimately leads right back to a Glock.

IIRC, company reps have stated in interviews the prime design element in the Staccato series was the magazine. It's different enough that STI offers (or did offer at one point) a 1:1 exchange on their prior 2011 magazines for the current ones.

[HCM]

I don’t know how different the current STI mags are than the ones they were making 10 years ago but the ones from back then were the flaws with double and single stacks all in one magazine.

In my more than decade of competitive shooting I watched almost 100% of 2011 shooters migrate back to single stack, or a CZ, then eventually to an M&P or a Glock 34 if they were really serious about shooting.

The 2011 has been foisted onto the duty/tactical crowd several times and it always ultimately leads right back to a Glock.

Very different. As TGS mentioned redesigning the magazine and outsourcing production of the magazines was priority one for making the 2011 a viable platform.

Making good, consistent magazines is challenging enough that most major gun makers like SIG, S&W etc farm it out to companies that specialize in making magazines.

I saw the inhouse production of the original STI mags on a factory tour 8 or so years ago. Describing it as Geppetto's workshop is being generous and I have no doubt your description of the old mags was accurate. This is why MBX and Atlas mags exist.

Outsourcing the Stacatto mags also reduced the cost. While not Glock mag cheap, they are now at least in the same price range as some HK
and SIG mags.

Stacatto drastically cut down the number of products in STI's old line so they could focus on making a few things well and focus on continually making them better. This is why current Stacatto mags are on their 3rd generation of improvements even though they were significantly better than the STI mags they replaced.

[Bucky]

The ongoing theme in the discussion about the 9 mm 1911 is that it shoots so darn well and so easy to shoot. I think most would agree it’s easier to shoot then the double action or strike action pistols.

I have found in recent years a 9mm pistol I can shoot just as well as a 1911 / 2011. That would be the Shadow 2. Of course, I feel that would be a behemoth to carry. However, I wonder if that shoot ability would translate into the somewhat lighter/somewhat smaller CZ pistols.

They still seem to be a niche pistol though.

[CSW]

There's a few reasons. I agree with M2's comment on adapting the .45 magazine to the 9mm - 9mm 1911 magazines are finicky creatures.

I also found the 9mm 1911 very sensitive to lubrication and fouling which would manifest in reduced slide velocity. The 9mm cartridge already struggles to get the 1911 slide moving (hence the reduced strength recoil springs compared to the original .45). Over an extended firing session, the slide would start to become noticeably sluggish, foreshadowing the malfunctions that would eventually follow. A more frequent maintenance interval can mitigate this issue, but this experience makes me question how the 9mm 1911 would perform in dust, sand, dirt, mud or other environmental conditions that could retard slide movement. I judge that the extra slide velocity imparted by the .45 cartridge makes it more reliable compared to the 9mm version under less than optimal conditions.

There's a reason why the Wilson EDC X9 and Staccato P chop at least half an inch off the slide. Equally significant but less noticeable than the shorter slides are the significantly reduced frame rails on these models, which further reduces friction and keeps the slide moving. Here's what Wilson says about the development of the EDC X9 and their "Enhanced Reliability System".

....

The 9mm 1911 is a joy to shoot, accurate, and fun. In my experience, the 1911 is not as reliable in 9mm as it is in the original .45. For me, it's great for the range, but I don't trust it for self-defense use.

Thanks for your thoughts.
I was under the impression from information that I have read, that one of the main reasons Springfield originally went to the dual captive recoil spring and bushing-less heavy barrel setup was to enhance the reliability/slide travel in their shorter-than-5-inch 1911s. Do you feel the double spring setup allows for the slide-mass-loss in commander sized guns?

Magazines, well, you are spot on there. Certain brands do run better than others, perhaps by magazine design;
I have found that in my two RO Champions, the Ed Brown mags have been 100% reliable. I also have several Wilson/Vickers mags, the 10 rounders, which also function, but are made for use with a magwell, which I do not employ for concealment reasons.

I am by no means, nor do I claim to be an 'SME' on the 1911, nor do I have years of carry experience with the platform. What I do have is my youth where my father drilled the 1911 into me as the only auto he owned [Rem./Rand].(This was the late 70's and early 80's) He was lefty as I am, and had an ambi installed on it. It was a rattly old bitch, but always fired, and was lubed copiously. I follow the same 'run the gun wet' idea. Hopefully, it will allow me to have continued success with the Springers.

Thanks for your input.

[Rmiked]

I’m reading this thread and seeing the pros and cons of a 1911 in 9mm (low recoil and accurate) but the potential for slide action reliability since the driving force is lower (weaker springs) if the slide experiences increased friction. Also concerns over having the “right magazine” design to accommodate the more highly tapered 9 mm cartridge. What are the prevailing thoughts on a 10mm 1911 reliability? More driving force for the slide to the rear, higher powered recoil spring, and a cartridge with less taper than a 9mm (w.r.t. magazine design)?

[OlongJohnson]

I would skip the low end. I haven’t tried the Rugers but my Springfield RO9 wasn’t good to go — fine for what I paid but skip the drama and get a DW.

Variable results with Springfields have been mentioned, but when I was doing my pre-purchase exploration of 1911s, I was all set to go with a Springfield until I actually handled one at an LGS and the trigger was literally gritty. I'm sure it could have been fixed, but I kind of took the approach that, "If the trigger, which is basically the defining attribute of a 1911, feels like that, then what else did they mess up?" You might get a good one, or it might be a less-expensive base gun to send to a qualified smith to have rebuilt into one that will be less valuable than a similarly-treated Colt by more than the money saved with the initial purchase.

Ended up buying a DW and a CZ, and then got out of the 1911 business last year when the getting got good.

I find that a P220 with Hogue checkered G10 grips works better for me than a 1911 ever did. It's like a TDA lightweight Commander with a grip that's the shape of my NATO-American hands, and you know which mags will work.

[JSGlock34]

Thanks for your thoughts.
I was under the impression from information that I have read, that one of the main reasons Springfield originally went to the dual captive recoil spring and bushing-less heavy barrel setup was to enhance the reliability/slide travel in their shorter-than-5-inch 1911s. Do you feel the double spring setup allows for the slide-mass-loss in commander sized guns?

I don't have any experience with the dual captive recoil spring, so really don't have anything to offer here. I tend to gravitate to the full size 5" guns.


I would skip the low end.

I've also had mixed experience at the low end and tend to regard entry-level 1911s as base guns. Springfield Armory and Smith and Wesson offer great warranties and customer service; my experience is that you'll need it. I had a Springfield Loaded that eventually became the base gun for a MEUSOC clone; during the initial range session the rear sight walked right off the gun. Springfield quickly rectified the problem at their expense. This pistol was eventually tuned into an excellent shooter.

The S&W was my first foray into 1911s. In the middle of a 'Bill Drill' the magazine fell right out the pistol. I figured that I hadn't properly seated the magazine when I loaded and that it must have worked loose under recoil. I reloaded, fired one round and then that magazine dropped to the ground. I stopped and inspected the pistol, realizing that the magazine release was no longer exhibiting tension. Turning the pistol on its side, half of the magazine release fell right out of the pistol, the other half still being retained by the retaining screw. It had cracked in half. I found this surprising as I wouldn't consider the magazine release a high stress or wear part. It was also concerning as it effectively turned the pistol into a paperweight - this remains the only handgun parts failure I've experienced that immediately deadlined the gun.

A quick call to S&W resulted in the immediate shipment of a replacement part under their lifetime warranty. But having experienced an example of 'bad MIM', I replaced the part with an Ed Brown model and had no additional problems.

[farscott]

TLG covered one of the big issues with the 1911 and 9x19, the magazines.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8464


Looking at the 1911 stoppages, magazine issues are a major culprit. Three occurred due to the Metalform feed lips giving up the round too quickly during the feed process. At least two more were caused by the Wilson ETM magazine’s positioning of the top round very far forward which can lead to feed problems if the slide doesn’t move forward with full force.

The other issue is hinted at in the above with "full force". A five-inch 1911 slide is a bit too heavy for the recoil impulse of most 9x19 ammo. If the pistol is kept clean and well lubed, the issue may never arise. If the pistol is dirty or has collected some holster fuzz, the slide may not go back into battery. This can be mitigated with a high lubricity finish such as NP3 or hard chrome.

Those two reasons are why the Wilson EDC X9 is so reliable. A proven magazine designed around 9x19 and a lighter four-inch slide. The long slide EDC X9L is not as reliable unless +P ammo is used.

Other than cost, the EDC X9 is a better choice than the Staccato offerings as it offers the capacity of a G19 (or G17 with the longer magazines) with the 1911 action and high reliability.

[Elwin]

Magazines, well, you are spot on there. Certain brands do run better than others, perhaps by magazine design;
I have found that in my two RO Champions, the Ed Brown mags have been 100% reliable. I also have several Wilson/Vickers mags, the 10 rounders, which also function, but are made for use with a magwell, which I do not employ for concealment reasons.

I’ve had very similar experiences. My EVO has worked great with Ed Brown mags (which if I recall correctly are rebranded Checkmates), and like you I need a true flush fit option for concealment. ETMs work perfectly as well, and I’ll eventually buy more to gradually replace my reload carry mags, which are currently Brows with a bumper installed. It doesn’t hurt that the Brown mags are affordably priced. I have . . . a lot. I will say that with these I am especially careful about keeping range and carry mags separate.

Im cautiously optimistic that between mags and gun design we’re getting to a point where fully reliable 9mm 1911s are a thing. For the EVO series, Brown copied a lot of Wilson’s EDC9 homework described above: very similar external extractor; 4” slide with FLGR and flat wire recoil spring; slide that is MUCH thinner and lighter than a 1911 side (one reason they went with an external extractor is that there actually isn’t enough material for an internal); single locking lug. I think the only real functional difference is they didn’t remove rails around the mag well. So it looks like the industry might be figuring some new things out in this area.

I agree that 5” guns with full weight slides probably aren’t ideal, and I’m not sure I’d buy one unless it was from a custom builder with a reputation for really making them work. I think I’d trust one from Chambers Custom. Otherwise I plan on sticking to 4” or 4.25” for 9mm and 5” for .45.

[farscott]

I’m reading this thread and seeing the pros and cons of a 1911 in 9mm (low recoil and accurate) but the potential for slide action reliability since the driving force is lower (weaker springs) if the slide experiences increased friction. Also concerns over having the “right magazine” design to accommodate the more highly tapered 9 mm cartridge. What are the prevailing thoughts on a 10mm 1911 reliability? More driving force for the slide to the rear, higher powered recoil spring, and a cartridge with less taper than a 9mm (w.r.t. magazine design)?

10mm is a good fit for the 1911 due to the ~25mm case length, ~0.1mm of case taper, and having enough recoil impulse to operate the pistol. My Yost-Bonitz Delta Elite is reliable with the limited 10mm I have put through it.

[M2CattleCo]

I agree that 5” guns with full weight slides probably aren’t ideal, and I’m not sure I’d buy one unless it was from a custom builder with a reputation for really making them work. I think I’d trust one from Chambers Custom. Otherwise I plan on sticking to 4” or 4.25” for 9mm and 5” for .45.

I had a few 4.25” 9mms and several 5” 9mms and the 5” guns were always the most reliable.


IIRC a 5” 1911 slide is about the exact same weight as a Glock 17 slide.

[TC215]

I’ve had at least seven 4.25” 9mm’s and ran them hard for several years. Never had any trouble with them, except one of the Wilson Combats that had to go back twice (chamber ended up being out of spec, if I remember correctly).

[M2CattleCo]

I never found a magazine that would hold up to daily use, much less rough use.

[JAD]

I never found a magazine that would hold up to daily use, much less rough use.
Dude, you are just snakebit.

[revchuck38]

I never found a magazine that would hold up to daily use, much less rough use.

Not even...?

71829

[M2CattleCo]

Dude, you are just snakebit.

So if I can’t just go out and buy 7 off the shelf examples of one of the world’s least reliable pistols and have no issues with them for years of hard use, I’m snakebit?

Nah. I’m just not FOS.

[TC215]

So if I can’t just go out and buy 7 off the shelf examples of one of the world’s least reliable pistols and have no issues with them for years of hard use, I’m snakebit?

Nah. I’m just not FOS.

:rolleyes:

Keep training, keep learning, one of these days you’ll figure out how to operate these guns.

[M2CattleCo]

Hell yeah, then I could carry a compact 9mm 1911 like all the real opr8ers.

[Lester Polfus]

Not even...?

71829

How the fuck did I miss that Cindy Crawford did 14 pages of nudes in Playboy?

Oh.

It was 1998, when I was deployed and lucky to find water that wouldn't give me amoebic dysentery, much less stroke books.

[TC215]

Hell yeah, then I could carry a compact 9mm 1911 like all the real opr8ers.

FWIW, I carried mine in plainclothes— lightweight commanders are one of the best plainclothes guns ever.

And I’ve had 9, not 7. Forgot the two steel-framed guns. Five were off the shelf, four were spec’d out.

Hopefully you have better luck with AgCats and Thrushes than you do 1911’s.

[M2CattleCo]

As long as it has a PT-6 on it I’ll ride.

Me and piston engines make me and 9mm 1911s look like best friends!

[Stephanie B]

Not even...?

71829

Did Geraldo explain what the hell he was thinking when he did that two-hour show about opening Al Capone's vault?

I watched it in a bar. When Geraldo shot a Thompson, some guy in the bar yelled 'Watch out, they gave that [racial slur] a machine gun!"

[MandoWookie]

So the big brand poly guns are starting to show up in more numbers, I'm seeing Glocks and M&Ps staying in stock(at MSRP), so I'm wondering when the supply in the 1911 industry will catch up.

Local LGS always had an entire counter dedicated just to 1911s, but last stop in, just one lonely Colt Competition 9mm , and a used Nighthawk something.
Plastic fantastics were at near pre-crazy stocks, as long as you wanted a 9mm.
I'm just wondering if the demand is staying higher on 1911s, or if the manufacturer's just haven't caught up yet.

[Tango]

So the big brand poly guns are starting to show up in more numbers, I'm seeing Glocks and M&Ps staying in stock(at MSRP), so I'm wondering when the supply in the 1911 industry will catch up.

Local LGS always had an entire counter dedicated just to 1911s, but last stop in, just one lonely Colt Competition 9mm , and a used Nighthawk something.
Plastic fantastics were at near pre-crazy stocks, as long as you wanted a 9mm.
I'm just wondering if the demand is staying higher on 1911s, or if the manufacturer's just haven't caught up yet.

So many variables there. I stepped into a local gun store the other day. They had very slim pickings to say the least. Probably sitting at 60-70% less stock than before the Wuhu Virus reared its ugly head.

While not scientific, capacity would be a factor in certain states. 10 round limited states have seen an increase in 1911 usage. When the playing field is 10 in the mag and 1 in the chamber, why carry a 9MM? That thought process was already ongoing for several years. Multiple personal carry and private security types switched from G17s to 1911s from different manufacturers. A fear of that becoming more the "norm" during the current administration may be driving increased sales.

[David S.]

The Dan Wesson PM-9 and 45 are marketed: "The Pointman shines at both the range and in competition." What's unique about the Dan Wesson Pointman (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/pointman-nine-pm-9-2/) series that makes it a competition/range gun.

The most significant difference I see is an adjustable rear sight and and FO front. Is there something that makes it inappropriate for duty or carry/duty?

[CLaw]

Other than what you mentioned when comparing to the heritage, it also has front cocking serrations, a more polished grip safety, and an uglier trigger.

I'll be honest, the perfect Dan Wesson for me would be the Valor with standard grip pushings, a more traditional-looking trigger, and a single-sided safety. Maybe I should just get one and have a good smith fit a trigger... I think I'm down to getting a .45 Dan Wesson or Staccato at this point. I handled a Wilson EDC X9L at a store today. If it was the same price as a Staccato, it might also be in the running. But, for the life of me, I don't see a quality difference in fit, finish, the trigger of the Wilson over either the Dan Wesson or Staccato to justify the extra change (maybe it's the only way to get a 1911 trigger in a reliable 9mm...).



The Dan Wesson PM-9 and 45 are marketed: "The Pointman shines at both the range and in competition." What's unique about the Dan Wesson Pointman (https://danwessonfirearms.com/product/pointman-nine-pm-9-2/) series that makes it a competition/range gun.

The most significant difference I see is an adjustable rear sight and and FO front. Is there something that makes it inappropriate for duty or carry/duty?

[CLaw]

Sorry had a duplicate post...

[fatdog]

I am a happy RRA Poly owner and very impressed with those guns. I am seeing a trickle of their steel frame guns start to show up in a LGS. Prices are comparable to the Dan Wesson guns in the current market.

Just curious if anybody has recent experience with one of their current production steel frame versions?

[rob_s]

I’m really stoked to see RRA back in the 1911 game! I thought they had bailed out in favor of ARs. Anyone know when they got back in?

Iirc the original founders were former Les Baer gunsmiths?

Great to see that they appear to have pretty much resurrected all of their old models.
https://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=24