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Outpost75
05-15-2021, 02:38 PM
Reading the previous thread on the .32 ACP as a field pistol, I thought I would fresh out the topic by sharing another previously published article of mine:

Pocket Pistol Wisdom from Down on "The Farm"


My mentor, the late Harry J. Archer was a career clandestine services officer who served from the post-WWII cold war period through the Vietnam era. Harry was the real-life equivalent of Jack Bauer or Jason Bourne, surviving multiple Cold War era covert missions in denied areas, including MACV service in Vietnam, later in life becoming a highly respected case officer and trainer down at The Farm, at Camp Peary, Toano, VA, (off I64 near Williamsburg) finally retiring and living long enough to die peacefully at home in bed in New Market, VA.

Harry taught that the purpose of a concealed handgun was to neutralize immediate threats from contact distance to about twenty feet to facilitate escape. When deployed without official cover, he carried whatever handgun was common among criminal elements in the country where the mission took him. This often meant a .32 ACP or 7.65mm Browning, because a M1911, Colt or S&W revolver would make it obvious that he wasn't "a local."

While a .32 ACP is not your first choice for defense, the first rule of gun fighting is to HAVE A GUN. In the worst-case scenario any gun is better than no gun at all. The .32 is a great "get off me" gun. Many countries restrict foreign nationals working corporate security for non-government clients from carrying anything larger than a .22 LR or .32 ACP, so you must "dance with the girl you brought."

A .32 autopistol is easy to control to produce rapid, accurate double or triple taps, compared to a .380 or 9mm of similar size, which carries one less round. The former Italian municipal police .32 ACP Beretta 81 double-stack magazine pistols now being imported have a heavy slide and heavy-duty recoil spring, like the Model 84 .380 pistol they are based upon. This mitigates the frame pounding effect of Euro loads assembled with 73-77 grain bullets loaded 50 fps faster than US 71-grain FMJs. In .32 ACP caliber the Beretta 81 with 3.8” barrel produces 950 fps with the 90-grain .309" diameter Hornady XTP bullet with 3 grains of AutoComp, which is a +P load! Its 12+1 magazine capacity in .32 is also a big "plus."

In the late 1960s-70s Harry's .32 carry load used the Winchester 100-grain .32-20 lead flat-nosed Lubaloy bullet assembled in "sterile" unheadstamped (WWII WRA) primed cases charges with 3 grains of Hercules Infallible powder. This had a burning rate between modern Unique and Herco. Cartridge OAL was 0.95-097" OAL, giving 870 +/- 30 fps from a Colt M1903 Pocket Hammerless Type III with 3-3/4” barrel. This closely approximated the energy of .32-20 factory loads fired from a revolver of the same barrel length, but from a concealable pocket pistol, so for the period it was considered a powerful and effective load. Accurate 31-095T with 2 grs. of TiteGroup does the same with near full-caliber "crush," and 30 inches of water-jug penetration, a full-charge load not to be exceeded!

In chronograph testing of modern production 71-grain US .32 ACP hardball typically seldom exceeds 850 fps from a pistol with barrel shorter than 3-1/2 inches, whereas the WW2 era 73-74 grain hardball then produced by WRA, Peters or Remington-UMC produced velocities little different in velocity than European ammo of the period, about 100 fps faster with a heavier 73-77-grain FMJ bullet.

Current production Speer Gold Dot and Hornady XTP JHPs break 900 fps, but seldom expand much from barrels shorter than 3-1/2.” European CIP 73-77 grain hardball such as Fiocchi, RWS, Geco, Norma, Sako, Hirtenberg or Sellier & Bellot produce about 900 f.p.s. from short-barrel pistols such as the Beretta Tomcat, and 950+ f.p.s. from the CZ27, CZ50, Walther PP, SIG P230, or Beretta M1935, M70 and M81.

European police felt the .32 ACP entirely adequate until the 1972 Munich Olympics terrorist attack.

When using a marginal caliber, feeding reliability, shot placement, proven ability to produce accurate and rapid multiple hits with deep penetration are most important. You want not less than 20” of water or 12” of gelatin penetration. Professional users of deep-concealment, hideaway guns agree, based on police and military experience dating back to Fairbairn and Sykes exploits in China before WW2, and continuing through the Cold War era. Light-weight, short-nosed, hollow-point bullets often fail to feed and may also fail to penetrate larger bones or defeat intermediate cover, such as a defensively positioned arm, thereby failing to reach vital organs.

Comparing European CIP specification 73-77-grain .32 ACP hardball to typical .380 FMJs fired from similarly short barrels any difference in lethality is not enough to be important. Light-weight .380 ACP bullets of fragile enough construction to expand from very short barrels, such as in the Ruger LCP, often fail to penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs. Typical Euro 73-77 grain hardball typically does a 180-degree "flip" during its first 6-8" of soft-target penetration, continuing base-first to cause more damage than its kinetic energy would suggest. Bullets tend to bounce around "like a billard ball" inside the body cavity, rather than penetrating in a straight path "rather making a mess of things" so says my shooting buddy "ER Doc" in Washington, DC who has long experience with gang bangers and dopers. The pelvic bone adjacent the groin is only about 4.5mm thick and a double-tap to the lateral pelvis even with .32 ACP hardball causes massive damage, extensive bleeding and excruciating, incapacitating pain, he says. "A finishing head shot afterwards usually indicates a professional hit."

In my testing of numerous different .32 ACP pocket guns, no JHP loads currently available expand reliably in either water jugs or gelatin when fired from barrels shorter than 3 inches. US commercial .32 ACP loads are all "anemic" compared to their CIP-Euro counterparts and less reliable in function. Many WWII-era European .32 auto holster pistols steadfastly refuse to function with US ammo, even 75-grain Buffalo Bore, which otherwise is the best US load IF your gun will run it.

In my testing the JHP and hard cast lead flat-nosed rounds such as Buffalo Bore, by being less than 0.945" overall cartridge length, are not reliable enough for defense carry due to rimlock when rounds may shuffle in the magazine stack, due to recoil. In most guns short rounds are a sure recipe for the dreaded “Jam-O-Matic.” The Beretta 81 is the only .32 ACP pistol I have tested which ran Buffalo Bore 75-grain hard-cast FN out of the box with no drips, runs or errors, being due to its double-stack magazine. The heavy slide and stiff recoil spring of the Beretta 81 series also helps to mitigate against heavier loads pounding its light-alloy frame to the death, a common cause of premature failure in the Keltec and Beretta Tomcat "mouse guns" when shot a lot.

The best .32 ACP pistols for pocket carry should enable safe carry with the chamber loaded. They should also be capable of immediate firing by stroking the trigger without having to manipulate an external safety. In the event of a misfire, the trigger mechanism should enable an immediate repeat strike upon the primer by repeating the trigger stroke. The gun should also produce not less than 0.010" copper indent on the government "C" sized .225x.400" copper crusher when used in the government gage holder. While drawings for the gage holders are in the public domain, coppers are not available to the gunsmith trade, but only to gun manufacturers and the labs who assess compliance with government contracts. The last time I bought any, the sole source was Olin, the minimum order 1000 coppers, and (in 2001) they cost about $1 each.

So... gunsmiths and police armorers developed a "work-around." The Federal 200 primer used to be designated as being for "small rifle and magnum pistol," whereas today it is just "small pistol magnum." The base metal thickness of its primer cup is 0.018" + 0.0015"/-0.0000, the same as WW2 military M1 carbine and current military 9mm primers, versus 0.0125" + 0.0015/-0.000 for typical small pistol primers used in standard-pressure loads like the .32 ACP and .38 Special. The Remington 6-1/2 primer is analogous to the military .30 carbine primer and can be substituted for similar function tests.

The proven work-around is to assemble 100 rounds in new brass, or once-fired brass in which you are hand-seating the primers into a CLEAN primer pocket. Then fire 100 rounds for function. Accept on zero failures to fire. If you get ONE misfire, repeat another 100-round sample, and accept on a total of no more than 1 fail-to-fire in 200 rounds, reject on 2. If your pistol does not pass, check firing pin driven protrusion to be within in the range of 0.028-0.032," check headspace to be within SAAMI limits, replace the hammer spring and test fire again!

Pistols which readily meet these test criteria are the Walther PP (not the PPk) SIG P230, Mauser HSc, CZ27, original Colt M1903 Pocket Hammerless (can't speak to the "re-pops") and the Beretta Models 1935, 70 and 81.

The micro-pistols such as the Keltec P-32 and Beretta Tomcat are attractive for concealment, but they are difficult to shoot well. They are also not as durable as holster-sized pistols when fed a steady diet of heavy CIP-Euro heavy-ball loads or a high volume [over 2500 rounds] of standard-pressure SAAMI loads. My advice is to severely limit loads producing over 130 ft.-lbs. to only occasional or emergency use in the micro pistols because they may cause “slide bite” if you have meaty hands and don’t use a Hogue Grip Sleeve, as I painfully found out. After firing over 1000 rounds, hand-loads with bullets over 80 grains and 850 fps from them are “frame crackers.” My Beretta Model 3032 INOX Tomcat, which replaced my earlier blued version (in which the frame cracked after less than 500 rounds of RWS hardball) did somewhat better, and digested 2000 rounds of hot CIP-Euro and heavy-bullet hand loads before its frame cracked. (I replaced my .32 Tomcat with the original model Ruger LCP .380 for deep cover carry. It is still soldiering on after 2000 rounds of 120-grain lead FN hand-loads with Accurate 35-120H and 2.5 grains of Bullseye).

The most effective carry load in the .32 ACP is a +P hand-load assembled with the Hornady 90-grain XTP bullet of .309" diameter with 3 grains of AutoComp, to an overall cartridge length of 0.950-0.955," which produces 930 fps. from a 3-1/2" barrel and 960 fps from the 3.8" Beretta 81. This load is best when limited to use in steel frame guns. If used in sturdy, alloy-frame holster guns with heavy slides and springs such as the Beretta 81 and M70 consider it +P and NOT for casual shooting in quantity if you want your gun to last!

ONLY IF your barrel slugs larger than .310" groove diameter, it is then OK substitute the Hornady 85-grain XTP .312" intended for the .32 H&R Magnum for the same result. XTP bullets fired from the .32 ACP do not expand spectacularly as depicted in gun magazine hype, but expand "some," to about .40 cal., so are more effective than FMJ, and penetrate deeply.

The classic Colt M1903 Pocket Hammerless, Beretta 1935, CZ27, CZ50 and the Walther PP are steel-frame pistols which I have shot extensively with these heavy loads. These particular guns will reliably feed large flat-nosed bullets such as the Saeco #325 semi-wadcutter and the Accurate 31-095T. The Beretta 81 also feeds the large flat-nosed bullets and Buffalo Bore 75-grainers. In pistols which do not feed reliably with anything other than FMJRN "hardball" the best cast bullets are the 87-94 grain Accurate 31-087B, 31-087T and 31-094H.

If you intend to standardize on bullets heavier than 80 grains in your .32 ACP pistols, it is VERY highly recommended that you replace the standard recoil spring with a .380 ACP version for the same model pistol, if available.

Let’s be clear that the .32 ACP is not my choice as a defense gun against either two-legged or 4-legged predators. However, there are those times when “any gun is better than no gun,” so it is better to take an easily concealed .32 along than to go unarmed and take your chances. When the cylinder bulge of my usual Colt .38 Detective Special is too obvious, my 1903 Colt Pocket Hammerless, Beretta M1935 or SIG P230 drop nicely into a pocket holster. I shoot these better than my tiny Ruger LCP .380 and like the fact that a .32 makes a bigger hole than a 22 but still presents a low profile. With correct loads performance is equal to most factory loads in the .380 ACP. Typical .32 ACP pistols give you an additional round of magazine capacity too.

We aren't talking about "one-shot stops" here, but to quickly and accurately put double or triple taps on target. The Italian Carabinieri practice 3-shots in 2 seconds at 5 metres or 2 shots in 2 seconds at 10 metres, aiming at a 10 cm x 8 cm oval which represents the nose, eyes and forehead of a terrorist. While these days they carry 9mm pistols, the drill dates back to the WW2 era and the .32 ACP and .380 ACP Berettas. Multiple hits increase stopping power.

Think of a .32 ACP as delivering a 00 buckshot pattern which arrives sequentially rather than concurrently. Do you want to stand in front of it? Didn't think so...

A historical anecdote from Caroline Moorehead's book "A House In The Mountains" pgs. 320-321 has lessons for us even today.

"After VE day the Allies insisted on collecting the weapons which had been air dropped to Italian partisans during the war. In order to prevent a Communist takeover there could be no weapons with which to do it. On 9 May 1945 the process of disarming the Italian partisans began. The fighters were invited to assemble at collection centers to turn in their weapons and ammunition and in return would receive a bolt of cloth and 7000L with which to turn it into civilian dress. The handover was staged with some degree of ceremony with flags, military bands and political speeches... But the organizers did not understand that the men and women they were dealing with were not eager, self-respecting and docile, but seasoned, war-weary combat veterans who did not trust this new set of occupiers any more than the Germans.

As the weapons were being handed over the Allies noticed that they consisted mostly of larger items, bazookas, mortars, machineguns and large quantities of bolt-action rifles, but very few of the SMGs, pistols, revolvers and semi-automatic carbines which were so much in evidence in the days leading up to The Liberation... Borne away into the valleys, concealed in attics, barns and cellars or buried in pits in the garden were scores of grenades, carbines, SMGs, pistols and revolvers. Later the Allies who made over 50 raids across the Italian Piedmont in search of hidden weapons would estimate that less than 60 percent of what had been dropped was actually returned."


##

DrkBlue
05-15-2021, 11:00 PM
Great write up. That ending quote is pure gold. There is so much truth in a light review of history.

But I have an issue/question - I love/hate the Colt 1903 pattern. Beauty on the belt, but so darn slippery, like wet soap. Does the 7.65 loadings from Europe provide any advantages relative harder primers or those a preference in US reload components?

SCCY Marshal
05-16-2021, 07:25 AM
Any chance someone reading this knows if the following firing pin stands a chance of fitting a 32 ACP 1910?

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1215230A

While not a serious use gun, I'd like my FN to stop being a mere paperweight. I'd be curious to see if handloads running the bullet from a 32 S&W Long would hit to sights.

Outpost75
05-16-2021, 11:14 AM
Great write up. That ending quote is pure gold. There is so much truth in a light review of history.

But I have an issue/question - I love/hate the Colt 1903 pattern. Beauty on the belt, but so darn slippery, like wet soap. Does the 7.65 loadings from Europe provide any advantages relative harder primers or those a preference in US reload components?

I've not had any issues setting off Remington 6-1/2 small rifle or Federal 200 small pistol magnum primers in my heavy .32 ACP loads in either my Colt Type III, SIG P230, Beretta M1935 or Beretta 81. The Euro-CIP loads do have harder primers, but the original Colts and the European pistols also easily exceed the minimum desired 0.010" copper indent, typically producing 0.012" copper indent, meeting the indent spec. for NATO 9mm.

Haven't measured indent on copper in a Keltec, but it's easy to load a couple boxes of ammo in new Starline brass with Remington 6-1/2s and see if they run.

Outpost75
05-16-2021, 11:16 AM
Any chance someone reading this knows if the following firing pin stands a chance of fitting a 32 ACP 1910?

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1215230A

While not a serious use gun, I'd like my FN to stop being a mere paperweight. I'd be curious to see if handloads running the bullet from a 32 S&W Long would hit to sights.

I cannot speak to this specific part, but I've had less than stellar results with their reproduction parts for Colt D-frame revolvers...

Outpost75
09-03-2022, 12:36 PM
Great write up. That ending quote is pure gold....

But I have an issue/question - I love/hate the Colt 1903 pattern. Beauty on the belt, but so darn slippery, like wet soap. Does the 7.65 loadings from Europe provide any advantages relative harder primers or those a preference in US reload components?

The Euro loads do use heavier primer cup material.to mitigate flow of primer cup material into the firing pin hole in the slide face. My wartime Beretta pistols the modern Model.81 and Colt Type II .32 ACP made in 1914 reliably set off. Federal 200, Remington 6-1/2 and WSR small rifle primers and with new springs produce 0.012" indent on a size "C" annealed copper crusher using the government gage. Same striker indent as the spec for the US M9 pistol. A striker indent of less than 0.010 which is off-center more than half the diameter of the striker point WILL cause misfires.

Evil_Ed
09-03-2022, 07:40 PM
I have been considering stoking up my Colt 1903, circa 1918 I think (284xxx)...honestly the only reason I haven't is because I don't really like/want to carry a gun that isn't in production anymore and/or may have some collector value. And the funny thing is...1903 prices are going through the roof. I paid I think $400 for this gun in like 2006? 2007? And I saw one in worse condition for more than $900 at a local store, and I'm sure if I go back it won't be there next week...if it is, I might buy it!

About the only gun I think might be nicer for a 32 pocketable carry gun would be a Mauser HSc...I have a couple, both are wartime so carrying either is not in the cards.

TheNewbie
09-04-2022, 10:59 AM
Though only a P32, it has been more reliable than almost any .380 I’ve tried, including a G42. It’s more pleasant to shoot and Kel Tec fixed what issues I had after buying it used. It was an old Gen 1 and they fixed it for free, and all I had to do was pay $25 for shipping.


Are there larger .32s that are drop safe? Can you somewhat easily find the more reliable .32 rounds?

Outpost75
09-04-2022, 02:19 PM
...
Are there larger .32s that are drop safe? Can you somewhat easily find the more reliable .32 rounds?

Mauser HSc, Beretta 81, SIG P230, Walther PP. However the hammer dropping safety lever on the Walthers is a single point of failure! Many of the former German police trade-ins have seen heavy use and the safety shaft lever may break. Wayne Dobbs and I have both experienced this. Numrich replacement parts of unknown history also prone to this failure mechanism. New OEM part shipped from Walther in Germany is $100 plus gunsmith fitting.

My vote is for Beretta 81 or SIG P230 - if you can find one of the P230 .32s. Mine can be carried either cocked and locked like an M1911, or if the hammer is lowered on an empty chamber the decocking lever does so gently without impacting the safety, thus mitigating the work-hardening issue.

Best factory FMJ are the 77-grain Norma or Sako rounds. Also good are the 73-74 grain RWS, Geco. FN, Fiocchi, S-B, Hirtenberg, Lapua. Any of the CIP certified. You can find on Ammo Seek. Older WW2-era Rem-UMC, WRA, Super-X in 73-grain were loaded to Euro specs, have oil-proofed, non corrosive primers and are sure-fire if properly stored. I snag allI find at estate sales.

Sal Picante
09-06-2022, 08:57 AM
Though only a P32, it has been more reliable than almost any .380 I’ve tried, including a G42. It’s more pleasant to shoot and Kel Tec fixed what issues I had after buying it used. It was an old Gen 1 and they fixed it for free, and all I had to do was pay $25 for shipping.


Are there larger .32s that are drop safe? Can you somewhat easily find the more reliable .32 rounds?

The ones that work, work. Not too hard to find one that works.
Putting better sights on it was one of the best things I ever did...

p/CgSeDAOu_dZ

Brian T
09-06-2022, 02:12 PM
The late Paul Gomez was a fan of the KelTec P32 for NPE/discreet carry. If he was going to get wanded, he would take his wallet and phone out, and sandwich the gun between them. Then he'd hold the "cluster" in his hand because his hand isn't getting wanded, his body is.

Sal Picante
03-22-2023, 02:02 PM
The late Paul Gomez was a fan of the KelTec P32 for NPE/discreet carry. If he was going to get wanded, he would take his wallet and phone out, and sandwich the gun between them. Then he'd hold the "cluster" in his hand because his hand isn't getting wanded, his body is.

Paul Gomez has sooooo much great info...

RAM Engineer
03-22-2023, 05:15 PM
The ones that work, work. Not too hard to find one that works.
Putting better sights on it was one of the best things I ever did...

Who did the sight work?

Ptero
03-22-2023, 06:12 PM
Wasn't there some concern with carrying a Colt 1903 in condition 1? Or is the recommendation to carry it Israeli style?

Evil_Ed
03-22-2023, 06:29 PM
Wasn't there some concern with carrying a Colt 1903 in condition 1? Or is the recommendation to carry it Israeli style?

Yes; not drop safe. Obviously "don't drop it" but as springs get older (these things are a PAIN to knock the retaining pin out of and replace that firing pin spring), the problem just gets worse. The 1903 sear was re-engineered after...I want to say 420,000/1923 but you'd have to verify that on the internet...anyway - they added a half cock/"safety" notch to the sear to catch it should it slide off the primary surface. It's not perfect, but it should work. In theory you could buy a later safety notch sear and fit it into an earlier gun...I have one kicking around somewhere just to do that, to my refinished 1903 (it's got no real collector value so no harm really in doing that).

Beyond that I wouldn't feel too bad about carrying one in a coat pocket, or other pocket of an appropriate size. I probably wouldn't AIWB it though.

Sal Picante
03-23-2023, 12:37 PM
Who did the sight work?

Innovative Arms https://innovativearms.com/ did the work - I don't see it listed anymore, but you should call them. They're truly a nice upgrade.

I keep getting curious about the Ruger LCP Max... It actually has sights!

Doc_Glock
03-23-2023, 02:56 PM
I keep getting curious about the Ruger LCP Max... It actually has sights!

It's cheap, looks and feels like garbage and runs beautifully. I think it owns the pocket pistol category.

BillSWPA
03-23-2023, 03:21 PM
Tooltech Gunsight used to offer to install tritium sights on Kel-Tec P-32 and P-3AT pistols. I do not currently see these pistols on their website, but the sights resembled these:

https://tooltechgunsight.com/product/ruger-lc9-lcp-custom/

The cost of installing the sights was more than the cost of purchasing the gun, which is not surprising since milling the slide and refinishing would have been required.

The easy button for improving the accuracy of the P-32 and P3AT is a Crimson Trace LaserGuard. Although the red laser will be extremely difficult or impossible to see outside during the day, it will be absolutely game changing outside under low light conditions or any time inside a building. Pocket holsters for these guns equipped with these lasers are readily available.

On the subject of these pistols, both of mine (1st generation P-32 and 1nd generation P3AT) require recoil springs 2 lb. heavier than the factory standard springs for 100% reliable functioning. I use 11 lb. in my P-32 and 13 lb. in my P3AT. Extra power magazine springs can also help a small amount. In the case of the P-32, this is absolutely critical to avoid having the gun become a single shot pistol when it is loaded with 7+1.

Moped
03-23-2023, 03:32 PM
It's cheap, looks and feels like garbage and runs beautifully. I think it owns the pocket pistol category.

One of these is my NPE pistol of choice. Wish they made in it .32, though. One thing I do hate about mine is the trigger safety has a tendency to pinch my finger, when the shot goes off. I understand that Galloway has a trigger that remedies this. I need to check into it.

But other than that, it's functioned flawlessly. It's actually easier and more fun to shoot than my Walther PPK/s and it's 12 oz lighter. But it's a damn site uglier than the Walther too. The Walther has got to be one the best looking pistols ever made.

Doc_Glock
03-23-2023, 04:19 PM
One of these is my NPE pistol of choice. Wish they made in it .32, though. One thing I do hate about mine is the trigger safety has a tendency to pinch my finger, when the shot goes off. I understand that Galloway has a trigger that remedies this. I need to check into it.

Yes.
Yes.
I also was pinched by trigger and yes the Galloway trigger solves the issue.

feudist
03-23-2023, 04:31 PM
The LCP Max Elite looks interesting.
Nitrided instead of blued slide, electroless nickel plated sear, stainless guide rod and an aluminum flat trigger. Looks like it retails about 50-60 more.

wmu12071
03-23-2023, 04:56 PM
The ones that work, work. Not too hard to find one that works.
Putting better sights on it was one of the best things I ever did...

p/CgSeDAOu_dZ

I saw this earlier today and wondered if they still offer this sight service anymore. Turns out that when I checked my email I am finally eligible to get mine done.

feudist
03-24-2023, 11:53 AM
I saw this earlier today and wondered if they still offer this sight service anymore. Turns out that when I checked my email I am finally eligible to get mine done.

How long were you on the waiting list?
Could any gunsmith with the ability to cut dovetails do this?

wmu12071
03-24-2023, 01:08 PM
How long were you on the waiting list?
Could any gunsmith with the ability to cut dovetails do this?

The wait time was roughly 5 months to get the email and 4-6 weeks for work is the current estimate. I don't think anyone that can cut dovetails can do it necessarily. In their words:

"What sights are used in the upgrade?

The front sight is a newly manufactured Trijicon night sight. The rear sight is a plain notch sight with cocking serrations that is manufactured by us, in house.

Are there any sight options?

No. The sights are not offered in any other configuration. There are no rear sights currently on the market that will accommodate the design of the slide. We manufacture the rear sight specifically for this sight upgrade and do not offer any other variation. There are no front sights currently on the market that will accommodate the slide except for the front night sight that we currently use.

Are the sights available for purchase without installation?

No. The sights are only offered as a complete upgrade to your slide."

BillSWPA
03-24-2023, 01:52 PM
Methods of attaching a front sight to a P-32 will certainly be limited based on the lack of thickness of the slide where it surrounds the muzzle, although the generation 2 pistols provide a tiny bit more material to work with.

Changing a tritium insert would also likely require a trip back to the original installer.

Sal Picante
03-24-2023, 06:38 PM
The cost of installing the sights was more than the cost of purchasing the gun, which is not surprising since milling the slide and refinishing would have been required.

...

On the subject of these pistols, both of mine (1st generation P-32 and 1nd generation P3AT) require recoil springs 2 lb. heavier than the factory standard springs for 100% reliable functioning. I use 11 lb. in my P-32 and 13 lb. in my P3AT. Extra power magazine springs can also help a small amount. In the case of the P-32, this is absolutely critical to avoid having the gun become a single shot pistol when it is loaded with 7+1.


yeah - the sight works isn't/wasn't cheap, but, meh... I've spent more on bar tabs so it gets done...

Keeping the P32 clean, lubed and swapping springs is a chore, but, it works... For true "neglect guns", the LCR is pretty much king...

Up1911Fan
03-25-2023, 11:08 AM
Anyone have a NAA Guardian? I was always curious about one of those as an NPE option.

Velo Dog
03-25-2023, 02:09 PM
Watch the whole video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhtwKwT1fEA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhtwKwT1fEA

BillSWPA
03-25-2023, 03:04 PM
Anyone have a NAA Guardian? I was always curious about one of those as an NPE option.

I purchased one in 2002 when it was the best choice available for that purpose. I have the .380 version.

On the positive side, they are very reliable. They are designed to be carried a lot and shot a lot. They have a good level of intrinsic accuracy.

On the negative side, the trigger pull is heavy, and the recoil can be uncomfortable. The factory sights are barely usable.

My example has miniature Novak Trilliam sites which were installed by the North American arms custom shop. It also has a trigger job done by a gunsmith who is now retired. The sights are a huge improvement, but the gun does shoot a bit low with them. The trigger job was also helpful, but I do get light strikes with some ammunition. I prefer Federal or Winchester for this gun.

At one point, Crimson Trace made a Lasergrip for this gun, which I have.

I stopped carrying the gun after shooting it side-by-side with my Kel-Tec P3AT. Both guns have Crimson Trace lasers, but the shooting was done in bright sunlight, which negated both lasers. Despite the trigger job and improved sights on the Guardian, I was able to achieve faster, more accurate hits with the Kel-Tec. Because the North American Arms is a straight blow back, and the Ke-Tec is a tilt barrel, the recoil of the Kel-Tec is much more comfortable despite the additional weight of the North American Arms.

In the early 2000s, the Guardian made a great deal of sense as a way to have a completely reliable tiny .380 pocket pistol. It is clearly outclassed by some of the choices available today.

Up1911Fan
03-25-2023, 03:22 PM
I purchased one in 2002 when it was the best choice available for that purpose. I have the .380 version.

On the positive side, they are very reliable. They are designed to be carried a lot and shot a lot. They have a good level of intrinsic accuracy.

On the negative side, the trigger pull is heavy, and the recoil can be uncomfortable. The factory sights are barely usable.

My example has miniature Novak Trilliam sites which were installed by the North American arms custom shop. It also has a trigger job done by a gunsmith who is now retired. The sights are a huge improvement, but the gun does shoot a bit low with them. The trigger job was also helpful, but I do get light strikes with some ammunition. I prefer Federal or Winchester for this gun.

At one point, Crimson Trace made a Lasergrip for this gun, which I have.

I stopped carrying the gun after shooting it side-by-side with my Kel-Tec P3AT. Both guns have Crimson Trace lasers, but the shooting was done in bright sunlight, which negated both lasers. Despite the trigger job and improved sights on the Guardian, I was able to achieve faster, more accurate hits with the Kel-Tec. Because the North American Arms is a straight blow back, and the Ke-Tec is a tilt barrel, the recoil of the Kel-Tec is much more comfortable despite the additional weight of the North American Arms.

In the early 2000s, the Guardian made a great deal of sense as a way to have a completely reliable tiny .380 pocket pistol. It is clearly outclassed by some of the choices available today.


Thanks for all the info. It appears the custom shop isn't taking work right now. I'm still curious about one of these or a Beretta 2032. I honestly don't know what I would use it for. I'm firmly in the snubbing camp for pocket guns.

willie
03-25-2023, 09:43 PM
I owned several Kel Tecs in .32, 380, and 9mm and soon became acquainted with their service department. Finally I figured out how to make these pistols run. Heavier Galloway recoil springs were necessary. The extractor in each is powered by a flat leaf spring lying across the extractor. I found success when I used two springs instead of one. Also I used a file to relieve the extractor's inside surface enough to allow it to move father toward the case. The result of two springs and more bite allowed the extractor to work perfectly. The two extractor leaf springs attach to the slide with a screw. Now a longer screw is needed. Find one at a hardware store.

wmu12071
05-05-2023, 01:21 PM
The wait time was roughly 5 months to get the email and 4-6 weeks for work is the current estimate. I don't think anyone that can cut dovetails can do it necessarily. In their words:

"What sights are used in the upgrade?

The front sight is a newly manufactured Trijicon night sight. The rear sight is a plain notch sight with cocking serrations that is manufactured by us, in house.

Are there any sight options?

No. The sights are not offered in any other configuration. There are no rear sights currently on the market that will accommodate the design of the slide. We manufacture the rear sight specifically for this sight upgrade and do not offer any other variation. There are no front sights currently on the market that will accommodate the slide except for the front night sight that we currently use.

Are the sights available for purchase without installation?

No. The sights are only offered as a complete upgrade to your slide."

Just got the gun back. went out the the range right after This is a great upgrade. It is dramatically increased my confidence in shooting the gun and now I am back to my trigger press being the limit of accuracy and speed not the sights I couldn't see. If I had another P32 I would be signing up right now for another sight upgrade.

Moped
05-05-2023, 04:47 PM
Just got the gun back. went out the the range right after This is a great upgrade. It is dramatically increased my confidence in shooting the gun and now I am back to my trigger press being the limit of accuracy and speed not the sights I couldn't see. If I had another P32 I would be signing up right now for another sight upgrade.

Can you please post a photo. I'd like to see the final results.

Sal Picante
05-05-2023, 05:58 PM
Can you please post a photo. I'd like to see the final results.

p/B_qVlhAJGf_

Gun Mutt
05-07-2023, 10:08 AM
Do want!

Evil_Ed
05-14-2023, 07:35 PM
104702

200 rounds through the gun (32ACP Colt 1903) and can this morning; 100 Aguila, 50 S&B, 50 Winchester - the only issues I had were mag related (turns out 100 year old mags/springs don't really keep up with added pressure from cans :rolleyes:). I can't shoot it for crap with two hands, but one handed it's a way more fun instrument. 7 of 8 into a 3x5 card at 30 feet is really not a problem one handed...the can (AAC Illusion) is still sadly taller than the miniscule sights, but it doesn't hinder as much as you'd think. Two handed, it just squirmed around in my hands as if the grip were made from a water balloon. One handed, way more planted.

It's way more fun than it might look :) Some first round pop because ...32 down a 9mm tube..but not a whole lot (if any) port pop, and after the first round it was way quieter. Sadly because of the larger bore and all that, every mag change resulted in all new first round pop, then 7 quieter rounds...repeat cycle.

This thing is really fun this way...it's gonna get a lot more range time in this configuration, I think!

Trooper224
05-14-2023, 07:47 PM
My only .32.
104703

LHS
05-15-2023, 04:36 PM
104702

200 rounds through the gun (32ACP Colt 1903) and can this morning; 100 Aguila, 50 S&B, 50 Winchester - the only issues I had were mag related (turns out 100 year old mags/springs don't really keep up with added pressure from cans :rolleyes:). I can't shoot it for crap with two hands, but one handed it's a way more fun instrument. 7 of 8 into a 3x5 card at 30 feet is really not a problem one handed...the can (AAC Illusion) is still sadly taller than the miniscule sights, but it doesn't hinder as much as you'd think. Two handed, it just squirmed around in my hands as if the grip were made from a water balloon. One handed, way more planted.

It's way more fun than it might look :) Some first round pop because ...32 down a 9mm tube..but not a whole lot (if any) port pop, and after the first round it was way quieter. Sadly because of the larger bore and all that, every mag change resulted in all new first round pop, then 7 quieter rounds...repeat cycle.

This thing is really fun this way...it's gonna get a lot more range time in this configuration, I think!

Dude, I would legit love to suppress my 81BBs. I wonder if I can get a .32 end cap made for my Odessa...

Evil_Ed
05-17-2023, 05:43 AM
So the BBTH (Big Brown Truck of Happiness) dropped off my latest acquisition...the original idea was, find a beater on Gunbroker for pocket carry in something smaller than my 1903s can fit in (pants pocket, whatever)...and, be cool. My father gave me a couple of wartime Mauser HScs that he had floating around and didn't care for or about (one in the 73x,xxx range stamped as a Police issue gun, the other immediately post war, 96x,xxx) and I fell in love with the platform - very intelligently designed, looks like a fantastic art deco inspired piece...something I think even JMB would have looked at with appreciation had he been alive to see it.

Anyway...what the BBTH dropped off, was way nicer than I was expecting a post war C&R HSc to be...

104781

104782

As you can see in the above photos, it's in cherry condition...but that's not even the half of it. I started taking it apart; field stripped it, took off the grip panels...no carbon in the frame, really. I mean really clean - it was dry as a bone but there was none of the residual blowback that you'd expect in the usual places...I wound up forgoing my usual detail strip and just lubed all the contact points and put the grips back on. I DID detail strip the slide because %99.999 of the time, no one cleans under the extractor and if you ever want a true gauge of how often a gun's been fired...brass on the breech face and carbon under the extractor, with the carbon under the extractor being more reliable, IMO. And this...if it had a box of 50 through it I'd be surprised; certainly no more than 100. Anyway, to get at the extractor, you need to remove the firing pin, thumb safety and then you can get at the extractor. And that, two swipes of a q-tip later, clean.

Fun thing about C&R collecting - most of them are inexpensive, can be shipped to your home, and they're generally really neat! Downside is, every now and again you actually get more than you bargained for and now you're back to square one, if you actually wanted to use it...

Oh, and mags are expensive. Buying a few original magazines will easily cost more than the gun in the first place..no idea how good the KKK (heh) replacement mags are.

I think I have a couple of other mags for it around somewhere; if not, the one will have to do for now. I'm hoping to get it to the range this week/weekend and see how it does. If I remember right, it's pleasant to shoot. It's got a really well done safety that Beretta improved on; when you engage the safety it leaves the hammer cocked but it moves the firing pin out of the way entirely, similar to how Beretta does it - if you pull the trigger the hammer will drop, but hit a bar and not the firing pin. It's one of a few pocket guns you can carry cocked with the safety on if you so choose. The "problem" is if you really need it and pull the trigger, the hammer will fall as normal but no boom...there's no real indication that you have the gun on safe except for the position of the safety - the trigger's not blocked, etc. You can, of course, put it on safe and then decock, and then disengage the safety for a DA first pull...my example really isn't bad (compared to a PP or PPK, it's downright light), but it's certainly not going to be mistaken for an LTT-tuned action.

For reference, here's the two wartime guns; you can clearly tell the quality drop-off between the two. The bottom one has similar markings to the top one; just the light and the blue kind of washed it out. It's not been refinished; the bluing is so fine on it that it's really hard to get a good photo without going nuts trying to get one with lighting, etc!

104783

104784

Half Moon
05-17-2023, 08:37 AM
Oh, and mags are expensive. Buying a few original magazines will easily cost more than the gun in the first place..no idea how good the KKK (heh) replacement mags are.

Very nice! I was eyeballing an HSC recently and almost bought it. Got deterred by spring and magazine availability but still might change my mind. They have to be one of the purt-iest pistols ever!

The quality on Triple-K's is generally marginal. They're the only game in town though for a lot of discontinued pistols. One weird thing I've noticed particular to their .32 magazines is mags that in original form are 8 rounders are listed at 7 by Triple K. Pretty sure this includes HSC mags, PP mags, and others. Not sure why they'd download by one in the specs but suspect it has something to do with mag springs. Or not. Odd though.

sharps54
05-17-2023, 09:08 AM
Spring and other parts availability is also a big deterrent for me. These days I am mostly out of the shooting and collecting game so I actively working to cull my collection to a small number of self defense, target and hunting guns. That said I had a .380 HSc 30 years ago and it was a nice little gun. There is no denying the utility of modern pistols but there is an intangible to things like the HSc, the Beretta 1951, and some of the other weapons of yesteryear.

ChuteTheMall
06-23-2023, 04:01 PM
Head shots at 45 yards with a P32? Buffalo's Outdoors knows his limitations
https://youtu.be/zG1a-bF58ls

Moped
06-23-2023, 05:38 PM
Head shots at 45 yards with a P32? Buffalo's Outdoors knows his limitations
https://youtu.be/zG1a-bF58ls

Wow! That was some impressive shooting with the little Keltec P32!!! Also showed why Hollow Points are not a good option in a .32ACP, because of rim lock. I would stick to FMJ in one.

Moped
06-23-2023, 06:02 PM
I watched Buffalo's second video on the keltec P32 and he did a great job of explaining rim lock. Well worth the watch! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWFMIOwi4HY

Half Moon
06-23-2023, 06:30 PM
Wow! That was some impressive shooting with the little Keltec P32!!! Also showed why Hollow Points are not a good option in a .32ACP, because of rim lock. I would stick to FMJ in one.

FWIW, rimlock wise it's generally less about hollow points versus FMJ than cartridge OAL. Granted most hollow points tend to be shorter but some FMJ's are short as well while some hollow points are long enough to be usable without rimlock.

Brian T
06-25-2023, 09:02 PM
I picked up a lightly used Gen 1 P32 for $200 the other day. It came with a single factory (MecGar) 10rd magazine and I snagged a pair of 7rd mags NIP at a shop.

I looked online and I can find ammo for a decent price, in fact I planned to buy a few boxes of of EuroDisney FMJs to what this gun likes/hates. I guess I can mark one brand off my list; Geco. This gun choked all through a 50rd box. FTF was most common, with a pair of FTEs thrown in.

I suppose I ought to follow my rule; when I buy a used gun, change ALL the springs... Springs are cheap, Brian. Change the recoil and mag spring, dummy. I was actually excited about this lil heater. Still am.

BillSWPA
06-25-2023, 11:37 PM
I picked up a lightly used Gen 1 P32 for $200 the other day. It came with a single factory (MecGar) 10rd magazine and I snagged a pair of 7rd mags NIP at a shop.

I looked online and I can find ammo for a decent price, in fact I planned to buy a few boxes of of EuroDisney FMJs to what this gun likes/hates. I guess I can mark one brand off my list; Geco. This gun choked all through a 50rd box. FTF was most common, with a pair of FTEs thrown in.

I suppose I ought to follow my rule; when I buy a used gun, change ALL the springs... Springs are cheap, Brian. Change the recoil and mag spring, dummy. I was actually excited about this lil heater. Still am.

Try Wolff 11 lb. recoil springs and 10% extra power magazine springs. The heavier recoil springs are the most important change.