RevolverRob's I hate TORX Rant

[RevolverRob]

I am increasingly convinced that star drive/double square/torx head fasteners are a communist plot designed to infuriate me and break my spirit.

I stripped out, probably the 50th torx fastener in my life time on a, not inexpensive, knife, earlier today. The long and short is, particularly small torx screws (T10 and below) strip with alarming regularity compared to hex/Allen, square head, and especially a good wide and deep slotted head.

Part of this is the bits have a tendency to break, because lots of torque, small surface area. But also the screws themselves are often not properly milled/cast around the bit opening. The tapered nature of the Torx head only exacerbates stripping compared to Phillips, by producing the same camming out effect common when Phillip's strip, but applying it over more, but smaller, surfaces, amplifying the problem.

In short, Torx sucks. And the gun/knife industry has come to rely on it far too much. I'll be grinding a flat slot into a Torx fastener later, with my Dremel. Something I've done far too many times.

Why did this shit standard ever become a thing? The only "benefit" is that the Torx drive doesn't have to be "timed" due to the symmetry of the head. I'd fucking trade that for a fastener that doesn't strip if you look at it wrong any damned day of the week.

I'm going to start buying slotted machine screws to replace every fucking Torx fastener I own.

[AKDoug]

It’s far better than Phillips. I personally have had zero issues with my Benchmades and Spydercos with tiny torx screws.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clusterfrack]

What I really hate are non-metric hex. 5/64”? Fuck that and the horse it rode.

[Snapshot]

Small Torx can be nasty, mainly because you can apply too much torque before having the driver cam out of the head.

In other news: In Canada "square" (properly Robertson) fasteners are very common and when made properly and used with proper tools they are effective and easy to use. But at one point they were not that common anywhere else, having lost out in the U.S. to Philips head for auto company and other big contracts. and to metric hex and Posi-Drive in Europe.

However we use them anyway, and several people have told me what I believe are true stories about using Roberson screws on products being exported, mostly because they were pricks and wanted to frustrate whoever was getting the stuff they were making. To me this seems like a pretty good way to not get the next contract, but what do I know.

[RevolverRob]

What I really hate are non-metric hex. 5/64”? Fuck that and the horse it rode.

Come on man. Inches are superior to millimeters.

Like seriously, you tell someone, "I have a 12" penis" vs. "I have a 304.8mm penis." Same length, different standards, one sounds better.

I concur that Phillips sucks and fractional Hex sucks (less than Phillips or Torx, though).

The correct choice is metric hex, slot, or square.

I'm grumpy RevolverRob and I have spoken. We must say no to the communist plot of Torx.

[Bucky]

The New Jersey gun clubs have pretty much exclusively go onto torques for setting up their stages. Pennsylvania, on the other hand continues to use Phillips head screws. I always stay to help put everything away no matter which club I shoot at. It is far more pleasant to disassemble Torx builtl stages then Phillips head screw stages. Needless to say, I am a fan of TorX built stages.

[eb07]

I usually touch a soldering iron to the head of the torx screw before I remove it for the first time to break any loctite on them. But yeah torx sucks

[Darth_Uno]

Come on man. Inches are superior to millimeters.

Like seriously, you tell someone, "I have a 12" penis" vs. "I have a 304.8mm penis." Same length, different standards, one sounds better.

I concur that Phillips sucks and fractional Hex sucks (less than Phillips or Torx, though).

The correct choice is metric hex, slot, or square.

I'm grumpy RevolverRob and I have spoken. We must say no to the communist plot of Torx.

I get those emails saying if I take these pills I can have a 10" dick. I just wonder why they think I'd want my dick to be 2" shorter.

*ba dum tsss*

Butinallseriousness we strip out way less Torx at work than square or Phillips. And I've stripped out way less scope/RMR/1911 Torx screws than allen heads.

[JRB]

Make sure you're using the correct type Torx bit. there's Torx, Torx plus, and ball-end Torx, and security versions of all three, I believe. Though I can't recall ever seeing a security version of any Torx in the kind of size you'd use on a folding knife.

JDM was a magnificent bastard and gave me a very nice set of Wiha screwdrivers that included some Torx bits and they fit my various Benchmade, Spyderco, etc knives wonderfully. Haven't tried it on the Chris Reeve yet though because that one just lives in a box :X

[MickAK]

Butinallseriousness we strip out way less Torx at work than square or Phillips. And I've stripped out way less scope/RMR/1911 Torx screws than allen heads.

It's much easier to continue using a slightly undersized Torx bit. You can build a whole deck with the wrong Torx bit. I wouldn't say all of the hate is from people using incorrectly sized or poor quality bits but it's a good chunk.

[Caballoflaco]

J.I.S. or gtfo bitches....





This hipster moment was brought to you by Slotheetm the only smoothie drink made from the algae and moss that’s lovingly scraped off the backs of two-toed tree sloths.

[Pistol Pete 10]

Torx, Phillips, Allen head do NOT belong on guns. Good old flat screws as God intended. The others belong on cars and certain other machinery.

[OlongJohnson]

I hate long-distance dirt bikes that are built with Torx or even worse, E-star heads. Because if I end up halfway down Baja and some galoot has managed to steal my tools, I will probably be able to find 6- or 12-point sockets a lot easier. If I ever get that KTM/Husky, I will spend a bunch of extra money with ARP, McMaster-Carr, and/or Fastenal.

But Torx are actually better than internal hex. Especially in smaller sizes, the hex form works through trigonometry in a way that causes stuff to round off and strip a heck of a lot faster than a Torx.

What really sucks is crappy hardware. Unfortunately, most firearms and firearm accessories are not specified by fastener nerds, so they get screwed together with whatever cheese screws can be had 10,000 at a time for the cheepest price. Case in point, the screws Beretta supplies on the 1301 to hold the stock rail on are absolute garbage (see my post in the 1301 thread about upgrading them with Torx screws sold for holding cutting inserts in tool heads). Properly headed fasteners of appropriate hardness and dimensional control, turned with quality tools, work well. Garbage fasteners and/or crappy tools make your life suck in any size, any configuration.

[RevolverRob]

I run Wera or Wiha torx bits, I still strip them and/or ruin bits at a surprising rate. When it comes to building a deck the torx deck screws are about the same compared to phillips in terms of stripping for me. If you use an impact driver with the torx screws though, it helps a ton. Impact only seems to make it worse on phillips.

I wonder if part of the problem as well is the tendency of manufacturers to use far too much and/or the wrong thread locker on their small screws when assembling.

I think the case today is where the hardware is bought in bulk and is of moderate (at best) quality. Once I get everything disassembled, I'll measure the hardware and order appropriately sized and hardened fasteners in a slot style.

Which brings me to a new point - I dunno how some engineers aren't OCD about these things. It really irritates me that there are two different types and three sizes of fasteners on my Rattler. Look y'all, you can order almost any damn combination of fastener where the bit is smaller than the shaft diameter. If you use a 5/64" hex key for the barrel screws, you can spec the same thing for the grip and brace screws. Instead I have 7/32nds, 5/16 allens and T10 torx. Disgusting.

[OlongJohnson]

I run Wera or Wiha torx bits, I still strip them and/or ruin bits at a surprising rate. When it comes to building a deck the torx deck screws are about the same compared to phillips in terms of stripping for me. If you use an impact driver with the torx screws though, it helps a ton. Impact only seems to make it worse on phillips.

I wonder if part of the problem as well is the tendency of manufacturers to use far too much and/or the wrong thread locker on their small screws when assembling.

I think the case today is where the hardware is bought in bulk and is of moderate (at best) quality. Once I get everything disassembled, I'll measure the hardware and order appropriately sized and hardened fasteners in a slot style.

Which brings me to a new point - I dunno how some engineers aren't OCD about these things. It really irritates me that there are two different types and three sizes of fasteners on my Rattler. Look y'all, you can order almost any damn combination of fastener where the bit is smaller than the shaft diameter. If you use a 5/64" hex key for the barrel screws, you can spec the same thing for the grip and brace screws. Instead I have 7/32nds, 5/16 allens and T10 torx. Disgusting.

Two points:

1. Quality fasteners are made to standards, which specify combinations of head, tool cavity, and thread diameter. For example, DIN 912 is the essentially universal standard for metric socket head cap screws.
https://www.fasteners.eu/standards/DIN/912/

If you're an engineer specing out metric socket head cap screws, they are going to comply with the standard. Getting anything different in quality is going to be 20:1 cost ratio if not more, and you may not even be able to find a fastener house that will or even can build off-spec stuff for you using proper methods.

If you insist on using the same tool size for all the different screws, you're going to compromise with some screws being bigger/heavier/uglier than they need to be, or some being possibly marginally too small, or some of both.

You might have noticed I am kind of OCD on this stuff, and an engineer. I'd waaaay rather have a quality, standard fastener spec'ed than something custom. Custom fasteners far too often are mega-fail.

Case study A: The aforementioned rail screws from Beretta. I was present when a buddy was trying to zero his 1301 with slugs and the heads popped off the fasteners, because they are made with other than standard manufacturing methods.

Case study B: The only wart on a Howa bolt-action rifle is the bolt stop screw. It is a custom-designed fastener, and it is utter crap. It has a stress riser where the head transitions to the shank, rather than a nice radius, and then, because it's turned on a lathe, rather than forged and rolled, there are circular tool marks that put "crack here" rings all around the stress riser. It can be unkittened by making a shoulder bushing sized just right for a SHCS that's made from 190ksi material with a forged head, radius underhead, and rolled threads.

2. Related to that, a lot of it comes down to what can be ordered. Most part or system manufacturers don't do enough volume on any given fastener to be direct with a standard fastener manufacturer. When you need only up to a few tens of thousands a year (or a lot less) of four different part numbers per year, you go through a fastener distributor, so you can get as many of your fasteners as possible from one source. This gives you a better relationship and a better position from which to negotiate your price. Also, fewer accounts to keep track of. It may totally be the case that, although the fastener you want theoretically exists based on the standard document, it's not actually manufactured. Or you might be able to get the length, thread pitch and metallurgy you need, but not the head form. Etc.

[Crow Hunter]

In my experience Torx head screws work significantly better in manufacturing when using torque/angle control assembly drivers.

They are much less likely to skip or jump throwing the gun into error.

When attempting to test a joint to failure a square bit has always worked the best for me assuming correctly manufactured screws.

[MVS]

I use Torx literally every day at work, in a number of applications but primarily in indexable cutting heads. If they weren't superior the manufacturers of these tools would be using something else.

[GearFondler]

.050 Allen screws are the Devil's own joke... Talk about a stripped head just waiting to happen.

[Stephanie B]

I am increasingly convinced that star drive/double square/torx head fasteners are a communist plot designed to infuriate me and break my spirit.

The Universe is reminding you that Dr. Rob is not all that and a bag of chips.

[rob_s]

I usually touch a soldering iron to the head of the torx screw before I remove it for the first time to break any loctite on them. But yeah torx sucks

That’s a good tip re: soldering iron.

Re: Torx suck, it seems to be more of a scale thing. I’m doing some outdoor construction projects and it’s mostly a mix of square and torx, and all goes well. On the rare occasion I grab a Phillips to tack something in place I inevitably regret it. And don’t even start on slotted for construction.

[olstyn]

Once I get everything disassembled, I'll measure the hardware and order appropriately sized and hardened fasteners in a slot style.

You enjoy having the bit slide out while you're trying to turn it? Flat head/slot screws suck out loud.

If I had to choose a single type to use for everything, Torx would be VERY high up in the running. Triple square would also be a strong contender. Flat head and Philips wouldn't even be in consideration.

[rob_s]

You enjoy having the bit slide out while you're trying to turn it? Flat head/slot screws suck out loud.

If I had to choose a single type to use for everything, Torx would be VERY high up in the running. Triple square would also be a strong contender. Flat head and Philips wouldn't even be in consideration.

I'm with you... sort of.

There are certain applications where I'd prefer slotted. 1911 grip screws come to mind. as do certain other screws on certain other tools/guns/knives where I want to have options when it comes to loosening/tightening that don't leave me wondering "now where did I put that bit set that came with this Leatherman..."

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I prefer Robertson to anything (although I admit that as I continue to see polls showing approval of the current administration here my patriotism has been severely curtailed) but Torx I love-hate.

I used to hate them, but I also used to have cheap drivers. Since I went to better drivers, and have a complete set that I protect carefully so I always have the right bit, I find they'll take a lot of torque. But I don't carry a good set of torx bits around with me so I think of them as not very field-serviceable.

Running in deck screws with an impact, Torx is awesome. On the bench, they're awesome. In a clean shop environment, awesome.

Once they start getting muddy or packed with stuff I find them much fiddlier to clean sufficiently to get the level of tooth engagement or whatever necessary to not wreck the bit or the screw.

So I am really impressed with the performance in ideal conditions, but sometimes frustrated by them in practise.

[OlongJohnson]

I prefer Robertson to anything (although I admit that as I continue to see polls showing approval of the current administration here my patriotism has been severely curtailed) but Torx I love-hate.

I used to hate them, but I also used to have cheap drivers. Since I went to better drivers, and have a complete set that I protect carefully so I always have the right bit, I find they'll take a lot of torque. But I don't carry a good set of torx bits around with me so I think of them as not very field-serviceable.

Running in deck screws with an impact, Torx is awesome. On the bench, they're awesome. In a clean shop environment, awesome.

Once they start getting muddy or packed with stuff I find them much fiddlier to clean sufficiently to get the level of tooth engagement or whatever necessary to not wreck the bit or the screw.

So I am really impressed with the performance in ideal conditions, but sometimes frustrated by them in practise.


I hate long-distance dirt bikes that are built with Torx or even worse, E-star heads. Because if I end up halfway down Baja and some galoot has managed to steal my tools, I will probably be able to find 6- or 12-point sockets a lot easier. If I ever get that KTM/Husky, I will spend a bunch of extra money with ARP, McMaster-Carr, and/or Fastenal.

I keep saying this, but I look forward to hanging out one day.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I keep saying this, but I look forward to hanging out one day.

71471

[Norville]

I am increasingly convinced that star drive/double square/torx head fasteners are a communist plot designed to infuriate me and break my spirit.

I stripped out, probably the 50th torx fastener in my life time on a, not inexpensive, knife, earlier today. The long and short is, particularly small torx screws (T10 and below) strip with alarming regularity compared to hex/Allen, square head, and especially a good wide and deep slotted head.

Part of this is the bits have a tendency to break, because lots of torque, small surface area. But also the screws themselves are often not properly milled/cast around the bit opening. The tapered nature of the Torx head only exacerbates stripping compared to Phillips, by producing the same camming out effect common when Phillip's strip, but applying it over more, but smaller, surfaces, amplifying the problem.

In short, Torx sucks. And the gun/knife industry has come to rely on it far too much. I'll be grinding a flat slot into a Torx fastener later, with my Dremel. Something I've done far too many times.

Why did this shit standard ever become a thing? The only "benefit" is that the Torx drive doesn't have to be "timed" due to the symmetry of the head. I'd fucking trade that for a fastener that doesn't strip if you look at it wrong any damned day of the week.

I'm going to start buying slotted machine screws to replace every fucking Torx fastener I own.


Two points:

1. Quality fasteners are made to standards, which specify combinations of head, tool cavity, and thread diameter. For example, DIN 912 is the essentially universal standard for metric socket head cap screws.
https://www.fasteners.eu/standards/DIN/912/

If you're an engineer specing out metric socket head cap screws, they are going to comply with the standard. Getting anything different in quality is going to be 20:1 cost ratio if not more, and you may not even be able to find a fastener house that will or even can build off-spec stuff for you using proper methods.

If you insist on using the same tool size for all the different screws, you're going to compromise with some screws being bigger/heavier/uglier than they need to be, or some being possibly marginally too small, or some of both.

You might have noticed I am kind of OCD on this stuff, and an engineer. I'd waaaay rather have a quality, standard fastener spec'ed than something custom. Custom fasteners far too often are mega-fail.

Case study A: The aforementioned rail screws from Beretta. I was present when a buddy was trying to zero his 1301 with slugs and the heads popped off the fasteners, because they are made with other than standard manufacturing methods.

Case study B: The only wart on a Howa bolt-action rifle is the bolt stop screw. It is a custom-designed fastener, and it is utter crap. It has a stress riser where the head transitions to the shank, rather than a nice radius, and then, because it's turned on a lathe, rather than forged and rolled, there are circular tool marks that put "crack here" rings all around the stress riser. It can be unkittened by making a shoulder bushing sized just right for a SHCS that's made from 190ksi material with a forged head, radius underhead, and rolled threads.

2. Related to that, a lot of it comes down to what can be ordered. Most part or system manufacturers don't do enough volume on any given fastener to be direct with a standard fastener manufacturer. When you need only up to a few tens of thousands a year (or a lot less) of four different part numbers per year, you go through a fastener distributor, so you can get as many of your fasteners as possible from one source. This gives you a better relationship and a better position from which to negotiate your price. Also, fewer accounts to keep track of. It may totally be the case that, although the fastener you want theoretically exists based on the standard document, it's not actually manufactured. Or you might be able to get the length, thread pitch and metallurgy you need, but not the head form. Etc.


Summary:
Torx is a really good design, when executed in a quality fastener.

[RevolverRob]

Summary:
Torx is a really good design, when executed in a quality fastener.

AND when used in ideal circumstances. Maple Syrup Actual's point is well noted. I actually hate TORX not only because or the poor quality of fasteners frequently used, but also for the limited field maintenance of it.

And while I agree with olstyn that slots can slide and you definitely do not want slotted fasteners holding your furniture together. Slotted fasteners that are appropriately sized and have deep and wide heads are some of the best out there for field use. While a penny or nickle isn't a screwdriver, you can disassemble a Webley revolver with one. Once you move from slots the ability to create a field expedient screwdriver drops.

Though I'm not a big fan of Phillips, you can at least use a flat-head screwdriver on them. I mean I can do that with Torx too...once I hammer that shit in there. :eek:

ETA: Tagged the wrong individual, I tagged wvincent when I meant to tag olstyn

[Cookie Monster]

I hate having metic and sae and now torx and allens.

I came across a torx security bit replacing a water filter in a drinking foundation. WTF.

Torx work better for me if I cast away any bit with wear or stripped a screw.

[Hemiram]

I haven't had many problems with TORX fasteners themselves, but some of the junk drivers, yes. Unlike cheaper Phillips and slotted screwdrivers that have worked well for me, the cheap allen and TORX divers are just garbage. I got some with a tool set I bought at a local tool sale. The wrenches are fine, the drill bits are fine, but those 7 TORX drivers were like they were made out of glass. They just shattered when any force was applied to them. I've never seen anything as brittle as those drivers were. I replaced them in the set with some old ones from Ebay, and they might look a bit rough, the plastic on the handles isn't pretty anymore, but the bits are great and were about half the cost of a new set from the same company.

My horror stories all involve tiny allen screws on various radios and other electronics. One radio took out at least 3 allen wrenches before it decided to break loose. They just weren't stiff enough to keep from breaking or ending up like half a used twist tie. I had to go to some place in town that sells high end tools at high end prices to get a set of German allen wrenches, and was finally able to get that screw and the knob it held off. Years later, I still have all of those drivers and none of them has more than a tiny bit of twist on them.

[whomever]

Just as an aside, I've been really happy with this brand of Torx bits:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/GRK-0-x-2-in-Green-Polymer-Trim-Interior-Exterior-Wood-Screws-2-Count/50303273

That company makes Torx head screws that I also like, and includes the bits with a box of screws. I noticed that the bits last through many boxes of screws, which not all brands of Torx bits do. I suppose it makes sense; if you were using crappy bits with their screws, you probably wouldn't be buying their screws anymore.

They give you the one inch length with the screws. I have also bought a set of the 2 inch ones. I use them with the impact driver and use the one inch ones with a manual insert bit screwdriver for e.g. ... 1911 grip screws :-).

[okie john]

Where are you guys buying quality Torx screws and bits in the sizes that work for scope rings and bases?


Okie John

[RevolverRob]

Where are you guys buying quality Torx screws and bits in the sizes that work for scope rings and bases?


Okie John

https://www.kctool.com/

Wiha or Wera for bits.

McMaster-Carr for screws.

[MickAK]

Where are you guys buying quality Torx screws and bits in the sizes that work for scope rings and bases?


Okie John

https://www.mcmaster.com/torx-screws/

[Jim Watson]

Brownells added T10 scope mount screws because T15 thinned the metal at the head-shank transition.
A T15 can twist the head right off a p 6-48 or 8-40.