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View Full Version : Jeff Cooper and the Creation of IPSC



Amp
04-29-2021, 10:40 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzduHUUUorA

JCN
04-29-2021, 02:16 PM
Very cool, thanks!

I kept waiting for them to tell me to get off their lawn, though....

TNK
04-29-2021, 03:01 PM
It is a good video. I would like to know more about how the Americans had to have things their way and created USPSA in the 1980s.

Trooper224
04-29-2021, 04:46 PM
One of the better videos in the series. Ken's really at his best when he's talking history.

I was involved in IPSC in California, back in the late 80's. Younger shooters today would be amazed at how basic the gear was compared to today. Some of the things commonly incorporated into stages back then would make an insurance adjuster faint.

okie john
04-29-2021, 06:06 PM
That video should have been about three hours long and Ken should have let the other guys talk a lot more.


Okoe John

BN
04-29-2021, 06:58 PM
Cool video. :) I shot my first IPSC match at Fort Harmar in 1981. Certainly has been a lot of change since. ;)

Rick R
04-29-2021, 08:29 PM
Cool video. :) I shot my first IPSC match at Fort Harmar in 1981. Certainly has been a lot of change since. ;)

Was it the old Ft Harmar or the new? I shot a course at the old venue that involved going down into a ditch/creek. Some guys lost magazines down in that crap!

Good times!

BN
04-30-2021, 07:20 AM
Was it the old Ft Harmar or the new? I shot a course at the old venue that involved going down into a ditch/creek. Some guys lost magazines down in that crap!

Good times!

I started at the old range in town. Before people built houses behind the back stop and they had to close the range. :mad: There was a creek that ran across the range between the 50 yard line and the 25 yard line.

When they moved to the new range out in the country, they had stages where you had to jump into the creek and make your way, wading down the creek while shooting targets. That was fun. ;) Best to bring a change of clothes those days.

Yep, good times.

Gary1911A1
04-30-2021, 07:34 AM
I started shooting IPSC in 78 at the Medina Rifle and Pistol Club in Northern Ohio. We shot in a sand pit, usually only one stage, and most of us shot a 1911 in .45ACP. We had a great time. I do miss it. USPSA isn't the same. The stages are overly complicated with awkward positions and many 180 degree traps.

mmc45414
05-03-2021, 03:55 PM
Cool video. :) I shot my first IPSC match at Fort Harmar in 1981.
Maybe another P-F guy I have met but don't know... :cool:

BN
05-03-2021, 04:20 PM
Maybe another P-F guy I have met but don't know... :cool:

Probably. ;) I've shot nearly every pistol match at Fort Harmar since Sept 1981.

mmc45414
05-03-2021, 06:25 PM
Probably. ;) I've shot nearly every pistol match at Fort Harmar since Sept 1981.
Or maybe not, I probably was only there a time or two, most of my matches were at Butler County Sportsman's Club. I know the avatar pic is from Butler County, not sure about this picture. I didn't have a very close relationship with a barber in those days...

71010

BN
05-03-2021, 07:49 PM
Or maybe not, I probably was only there a time or two, most of my matches were at Butler County Sportsman's Club. I know the avatar pic is from Butler County, not sure about this picture. I didn't have a very close relationship with a barber in those days...

71010

Man, that's some old school. :) Who is everybody in the picture?

mmc45414
05-04-2021, 06:51 AM
Man, that's some old school. :) Who is everybody in the picture?
My friend Rick Miller on Ken's right, my friend Jack on his left, and the bushy head kid is me (I was maybe only 19-20yo...). :cool:

pistolwrench
05-04-2021, 09:44 AM
https://i.imgur.com/S9RHvxt.jpg

BobM
05-04-2021, 09:53 AM
My friend Rick Miller on Ken's right, my friend Jack on his left, and the bushy head kid is me (I was maybe only 19-20yo...). :cool:

Is that the Rick Miller that had the column in Combat Handguns magazine?

mmc45414
05-04-2021, 10:34 AM
Is that the Rick Miller that had the column in Combat Handguns magazine?
Yup!

pistolwrench
05-05-2021, 02:46 PM
L to R:
Ray Chapman
Elden Carl
Thell Reed
Jeff Cooper
Jack Weaver

Jeff22
05-10-2021, 01:48 AM
I shot my first IPSC match in March of 1978 with a borrowed gun.

I was the secretary for the local club through the 80s. One of the guys on the PD was the section coordinator for a while, and then later on one of my best friends was the SO.

I still shoot USPSA and IDPA but since the 'rona hit I have only shot classifier matches. I really enjoy those. Regular monthly matches don't interest me much any more, but if/when the ammunition situation improves, I'll go back to shooting a local match once in a while.

It was neat to be involved in the sport back then as it was developed and then began to evolve.

P_Pete
11-17-2021, 03:32 PM
new to the site been around shooting a while.

I think it has lost a lot of the practical element as the founders pointed out

I wasn't shooting anything in 78 don't think I fired my first round till about 88

I shot my first USPSA match this last weekend with my 18 year old son.

we have both been shooting club level action pistol for a while myself about 10 years and him since he turned 12.

when I started with action pistol it was with the Smith M39 single stack 9mm I bought when I was 18 I bought my first glock 17 not long after.

I chased holsters and equipment to get faster and make shooting easier I was on a tight budget but bought some stuff cast most of my own bullets at the time to keep it affordable . in not very long I found myself going in the direction of making it really good practice and not worrying about speed that isn't to say I didn't get faster I did but chasing speed by making me better and not worrying about shaving seconds with gear.

got to where I was drawing from concealment , wearing all my gear to the range besides my ear muffs , some times I even shot with just ear plugs I could keep in my pocket the only thing I took out of my bag was boxes of ammo and work gloves to wear during stage setup.
It was and is very good practice my carry load shoots to the same POA/POI as my practice ammo

at the Match this weekend I feel like I did ok , I focused on running it clean and let the time be what it was
I really enjoyed the stages and look forward to shooting many more

I think USPSA could use a Carry division something along the lines of gun not to exceed 5 inches of barrel length and not more than 32oz with a 20 round max something you would actually carry

Production is what I shot and probably where I will stay unless I go limited just to be able to fill my mags to capacity.
running a mostly stock Glock puts it at disadvantage against guns that weigh twice as much.

and it may be that IDPA is the game to play for more practical practice however it is not popular in WI the only matches seem to be hours away

could we grow the sport more if a division was set up to a working mans gun?
something where you could be on par with others running basically out of the box 4-600 dollar guns or do people immediately get discouraged running against a CZ Shadow II at 46.5 oz if loaded to 10 rounds it can play in Production.

the other thing I am not so sure about is Major scoring , I don't think it has as much of a place as it maybe once did. we are at a place where a quality personal defense round in 9mm , 45acp or 40s&W are honestly all very close to each other in FPE they are calibrated to stop in the same range in ballistics gel >12 inches and <18

looking at ammo comparisons 9mm 40 and 45 are often within an inch or two of each other in the same calibrated gel tests and less difference in FPE than a 22lr.

even on things like effectiveness on bear we aren't seeing major differences in the 3 common duty calibers. Hits on target matter more than power factor

at what point does 0.048 inches make a bad shot a good shot other than maybe on a target you broke the line or you didn't but given pressed in scoring lines on carboard targets even that will be splitting hairs.

I am just going to keep running close to how I carry , make it good practice and enjoy it for competing against myself.

JCN
11-18-2021, 08:14 AM
P_Pete

Youíre asking the same questions many haveÖ

The analogy is SCCA autocross where people trick out their daily drivers to compete in a racing competition.

Theyíve tried making bone stock classes in the past but turns out nobody wants to race their stock shitboxes and those classes withered away.

Same thing with the ďEverymanĒ USPSA classes. The people who care about bone stock guns arenít the ones that show up to these things. People like fancy fast stuff even though itís a very minor contributor to USPSA until you get to the A/M/GM level.

I apologize to the people that have seen these videos before.

But when I practiced and exclusively competed with a Shadow 2, I had no problem transferring those skills to a stock P365X.


https://youtu.be/1zknAzX2nr4


https://youtu.be/ysLLBd1blJw

Shootinís shootin and if you get really good with one, you can be very good with everything.

Sticking only with what you carry in the configuration youíre going to carry really only applies to D/C/B level where the level of skill and automaticity isnít quite there.

High Cross
11-18-2021, 09:15 AM
Or maybe not, I probably was only there a time or two, most of my matches were at Butler County Sportsman's Club. I know the avatar pic is from Butler County, not sure about this picture. I didn't have a very close relationship with a barber in those days...

71010

Wow! Used to shoot Bob Tulley matches at Butler sportsman in the late 90s with jeff mishoes of venice arms, Jeff Pelfrey, W, Larry Galaske.

P_Pete
11-26-2021, 09:32 AM
P_Pete

Youíre asking the same questions many haveÖ

The analogy is SCCA autocross where people trick out their daily drivers to compete in a racing competition.

Theyíve tried making bone stock classes in the past but turns out nobody wants to race their stock shitboxes and those classes withered away.

Same thing with the ďEverymanĒ USPSA classes. The people who care about bone stock guns arenít the ones that show up to these things. People like fancy fast stuff even though itís a very minor contributor to USPSA until you get to the A/M/GM level.

I apologize to the people that have seen these videos before.

But when I practiced and exclusively competed with a Shadow 2, I had no problem transferring those skills to a stock P365X.

Shootinís shootin and if you get really good with one, you can be very good with everything.

Sticking only with what you carry in the configuration youíre going to carry really only applies to D/C/B level where the level of skill and automaticity isnít quite there.

thanks , that makes some sense

I may try carry optics at some point for right now I am thinking of just running my G17 in Limited and filling my mags back up spend the time working on getting better for me not worrying about how I place.

mmc45414
11-26-2021, 09:38 AM
spend the time working on getting better for me not worrying about how I place.
I have been enjoying three gun much more since I set myself free from the notion that I was gonna win... :cool:
Seriously, I was VERY frustrated by the stages that required shotgun reloading, until I did two things:
I accepted that I would finish behind people that had put tons of effort into the stunt of quad loading, and practiced enough to get a little bit better at twin loading. ;)

JCN
11-26-2021, 01:05 PM
thanks , that makes some sense

I may try carry optics at some point for right now I am thinking of just running my G17 in Limited and filling my mags back up spend the time working on getting better for me not worrying about how I place.

I think carry optics is a faster way to get better as dots give good dry feedback and there are a number of people to compete and compare with. I think itís okay to loosely check progress with results but with a grain of salt. For someone working on improving it doesnít mean as much to beat a close rival because they had a gun malfunction. I usually try and judge my own performance and then contextualize it on each stage results to see if my assessment has some merit.


I have been enjoying three gun much more since I set myself free from the notion that I was gonna win... :cool:
Seriously, I was VERY frustrated by the stages that required shotgun reloading, until I did two things:
I accepted that I would finish behind people that had put tons of effort into the stunt of quad loading, and practiced enough to get a little bit better at twin loading. ;)

Or you could do 2 gun and then have lunch and do a round of sporting clays! :D

mmc45414
11-26-2021, 01:51 PM
I think carry optics is a faster way to get better as dots give good dry feedback and there are a number of people to compete and compare with.
I have been dabbling in a little USPSA style matches indoors, and the dot also makes it a hell of a lot easier for me to see sights indoors. More of a shooting skill measurement than visual acuity test (I am 62yo...).



I think itís okay to loosely check progress with results but with a grain of salt. For someone working on improving it doesnít mean as much to beat a close rival because they had a gun malfunction. I usually try and judge my own performance and then contextualize it on each stage results to see if my assessment has some merit.
I can't help but care a little about the placement order, but then I started looking at the percentage rating, and I was striving to finish better than 70%. Then I realized that depends on who shows up, when another day the second place shooter was 69%! :)


Or you could do 2 gun and then have lunch and do a round of sporting clays! :D
One of the ways I got better at twin loading was wearing my shell holder when I was skeet shooting and twin loading for practice :cool:

JCN
11-26-2021, 02:10 PM
I have been dabbling in a little USPSA style matches indoors, and the dot also makes it a hell of a lot easier for me to see sights indoors. More of a shooting skill measurement than visual acuity test (I am 62yo...).

I can't help but care a little about the placement order, but then I started looking at the percentage rating, and I was striving to finish better than 70%. Then I realized that depends on who shows up, when another day the second place shooter was 69%! :)

One of the ways I got better at twin loading was wearing my shell holder when I was skeet shooting and twin loading for practice :cool:

Great insights!

Itís pretty striking how handicapped iron sight shooters are in indoor USPSA league where overhead lighting is poor and the backstop is dark. I remember one fairly poorly lit stage where the iron shooters all logged multiple misses and the average hit factor was under 1.0 haha.

That all factors into my decision to have a dot on my carry gun since a dark parking ramp or alley would be similarly lit. I donít want my equipment to grossly hamper my skill for self defense.

I think most of us care a fair amount how we do at matches. But for learning itís important to get proper feedback for improvement. Judging by stage generally gives better data to exclude outliers when working on specific things.

I have so many interests that I donít feel like shotgun reloading at speed is on the radar with limited training time. Kudos for you in finding a way to multi-task.

mmc45414
11-27-2021, 08:06 AM
I have so many interests that I donít feel like shotgun reloading at speed is on the radar with limited training time. Kudos for you in finding a way to multi-task.
In the beginning I felt like I was just teaching myself a stupid stunt, but then I started to enjoy the shotgun stages, and this has lead to the recent purchase of two more shotguns... :cool:

spinmove_
12-07-2021, 12:12 PM
new to the site been around shooting a while.

I think it has lost a lot of the practical element as the founders pointed out

I wasn't shooting anything in 78 don't think I fired my first round till about 88

I shot my first USPSA match this last weekend with my 18 year old son.

we have both been shooting club level action pistol for a while myself about 10 years and him since he turned 12.

when I started with action pistol it was with the Smith M39 single stack 9mm I bought when I was 18 I bought my first glock 17 not long after.

I chased holsters and equipment to get faster and make shooting easier I was on a tight budget but bought some stuff cast most of my own bullets at the time to keep it affordable . in not very long I found myself going in the direction of making it really good practice and not worrying about speed that isn't to say I didn't get faster I did but chasing speed by making me better and not worrying about shaving seconds with gear.

got to where I was drawing from concealment , wearing all my gear to the range besides my ear muffs , some times I even shot with just ear plugs I could keep in my pocket the only thing I took out of my bag was boxes of ammo and work gloves to wear during stage setup.
It was and is very good practice my carry load shoots to the same POA/POI as my practice ammo

at the Match this weekend I feel like I did ok , I focused on running it clean and let the time be what it was
I really enjoyed the stages and look forward to shooting many more

I think USPSA could use a Carry division something along the lines of gun not to exceed 5 inches of barrel length and not more than 32oz with a 20 round max something you would actually carry

Production is what I shot and probably where I will stay unless I go limited just to be able to fill my mags to capacity.
running a mostly stock Glock puts it at disadvantage against guns that weigh twice as much.

and it may be that IDPA is the game to play for more practical practice however it is not popular in WI the only matches seem to be hours away

could we grow the sport more if a division was set up to a working mans gun?
something where you could be on par with others running basically out of the box 4-600 dollar guns or do people immediately get discouraged running against a CZ Shadow II at 46.5 oz if loaded to 10 rounds it can play in Production.

the other thing I am not so sure about is Major scoring , I don't think it has as much of a place as it maybe once did. we are at a place where a quality personal defense round in 9mm , 45acp or 40s&W are honestly all very close to each other in FPE they are calibrated to stop in the same range in ballistics gel >12 inches and <18

looking at ammo comparisons 9mm 40 and 45 are often within an inch or two of each other in the same calibrated gel tests and less difference in FPE than a 22lr.

even on things like effectiveness on bear we aren't seeing major differences in the 3 common duty calibers. Hits on target matter more than power factor

at what point does 0.048 inches make a bad shot a good shot other than maybe on a target you broke the line or you didn't but given pressed in scoring lines on carboard targets even that will be splitting hairs.

I am just going to keep running close to how I carry , make it good practice and enjoy it for competing against myself.

B class Production guy here.

I shoot a Beretta 92FS that Iíve done some fairly basic modifications to. Mods Iíve include, but are not limited to:

Steel guide rod
Steel trigger
D hammer spring
G10 grips
Les Pepperoni rear sight
Oversized magazine release

These are all mods that Iíd make to a Beretta 92 if I were to carry it and I feel no need to change anything else on it. Whatís holding me back from going to A class and beyond is my participation in the sport and diligence in practice right now. I can absolutely make M and GM if I have the drive and motivation to do so with this setup. The gun is definitely not holding me back.

A lot of people like to make it out to be an equipment race. Itís largely not, about half of the 2021 Limited Nationals top guys were shooting polymer guns. Shoot what fits you and work on improving yourself. Most of the gear out there generally wonít hold you back. Heck, hereís a link to an interview for a guy that made GM in Carry Optics with a Glock 26.

https://youtu.be/LHe81qKET2k

Donít ask if the gun youíre shooting is holding you back or if you need something better. Chances are is that its not or you donít.

JCN
12-09-2021, 05:14 AM
Most of the gear out there generally wonít hold you back. Heck, hereís a link to an interview for a guy that made GM in Carry Optics with a Glock 26.

https://youtu.be/LHe81qKET2k

Donít ask if the gun youíre shooting is holding you back or if you need something better. Chances are is that its not or you donít.

That's overly simplistic. The reality is that the gun can hold you back 2-5%. The guy you're referencing with the Glock 26 even said that in testing he was consistently better performing with the Glock 34 he had. He just wanted to do it with the handicap.

For most shooters 2-5% is dwarfed by their skill limitation. As you get further up the food chain 2-5% starts meaning more.

This is from his own post here about what kind of dedication it took to make GM with a G26. It wasn't "casual." He practiced for multiple HOURS per day.


I shot a gun for the first time around August 2018. My first purchase was picked up on October 1, 2018. First competition was July 13, 2019 and made GM in CO on September 13, 2020. At least 8 of these months were spent traveling with no gun.

CO Progression:

6/27/2020 - C (41.3320)
7/26/2020 - B (71.3752)
8/2/2020 - A (78.1085)
8/16/2020 - M (85.9280)
9/13/2020 - GM (96.0323)


My journey took roughly 770 days.

Time to first purchase: ~60 days
Additional time to first competition: 285
Additional time to first dot usage: 301
Additional time to GM: 127


Theoretical improvements to bring total to around 121 days:

Time to first purchase: 1
Additional time to first competition: 30 (first month spent on gun manipulation and doubles)
Additional time to first dot usage: 0 (compete with a dot from the get go)
Additional time to GM: 90 (alternate between pure alpha and pure speed for stages)


What's needed:

A mentality to be the best shooter in the world (nearly delusional level)
A highly observant individual that is always willing to adjust technique
A person who doesn't second guess his or her gear
Roughly 10K rounds (not so much where they're meaningless, but enough to understand how a gun behaves)
A mentor of the same mentality who has already knows how to shoot that can communicate the nuances of various techniques (Add at least 6 months if the person has to self-discover)
At least 4 hours a day that can be dedicated to shooting
An obsessed learner
All classifier match at the end (this can literally save 5 weeks, if a person can consistently shoot GM HF)


All this assumes that making GM equates to proficiency.


Extremely impressive! Congrats!

Itís interesting to note that if you take the 770 days of 4h/day and multiply that by 4 to bring it down to a casual 1h/day.
Thatís 3000 days or about 8.5 years.

That seems about right.
I think the theoretical 120 days might not be possible due to the limit of synapse formation and muscle strength / coordination. There is probably a limit of how fast one can build muscle memory.

It is seriously impressive the dedication and hours you put in! Congrats!

In rereading it, it seems that maybe Tony was saying that 121 days at 4 hours per day and that 770 was done at scaled 45-60 min per day which is about right.

spinmove_
12-09-2021, 07:48 AM
That's overly simplistic. The reality is that the gun can hold you back 2-5%. The guy you're referencing with the Glock 26 even said that in testing he was consistently better performing with the Glock 34 he had. He just wanted to do it with the handicap.

For most shooters 2-5% is dwarfed by their skill limitation. As you get further up the food chain 2-5% starts meaning more.

This is from his own post here about what kind of dedication it took to make GM with a G26. It wasn't "casual." He practiced for multiple HOURS per day.





In rereading it, it seems that maybe Tony was saying that 121 days at 4 hours per day and that 770 was done at scaled 45-60 min per day which is about right.

Obviously thatís over simplistic. And, yes, of course heíd have an easier time with a G34 vs a G26. My point was that most people would think itís impossible to do such a thing when in reality itís not. It just takes more time and dedication. But its all a balance though, right?

The fact of the matter is thereís a highly likely chance that whatever gun any person is using is not holding them back. If Random Person A can make GM with a G26, then the person complaining about their G17 keeping them in C Class is probably not looking at things correctly barring any obvious physical limitations.

JCN
12-09-2021, 07:52 AM
Obviously thatís over simplistic. And, yes, of course heíd have an easier time with a G34 vs a G26. My point was that most people would think itís impossible to do such a thing when in reality itís not. It just takes more time and dedication. But its all a balance though, right?

The fact of the matter is thereís a highly likely chance that whatever gun any person is using is not holding them back. If Random Person A can make GM with a G26, then the person complaining about their G17 keeping them in C Class is probably not looking at things correctly barring any obvious physical limitations.

And thatís exactly why you shouldnít be frustrated about rulesets and divisions.

Note that the 2-5% gun thing is also the same estimated spread lost to major/minor in limited.

So you can shoot limited minor as high cap production at the B class level and also be similarly unconcerned like a G26.