what is it with simple looking, expensive "defensive" knifes

[overton]

Hi! Sorry, if this is considered blasphemy here, but looking at fixed blade options, what are the advantages of Tracker Dan, Northman blades, etc. to say a 100,- USD Shivworks clinch pick? While I gladly pay for the thinking that went into the clinch pick design, these short defensive blades don't look awfully complicated to design or make, more like somebody would put out on his first venture into knifemaking, some even more like a simple, guardless shiv made in prison. Is it the semi-custom vs. production thing? Is it the steel? Or is it just the newest fad I don't get?

Thanks!

[javemtr]

While the blades you listed are all excellent, some of the prices are not reasonable. Some blades/makers are trending with certain groups and those people are willing to snatch up all the available stock and pay outrageous prices to get their hands on those knives. Ultimately, I don't think you can blame any of the makers, people will pay what they think is reasonable for them.

The Shivworks production Clinch Pick is not a good comparison in this regard, because this knife is specifically designed as a low cost, mass produced self defense knife and openly marketed as such. So it is not trying to be something it is not. Craig is selling these at a reasonable price for what they are. Now let's take a look at the fancy Ban Tang Knives version of the Clinch Pick. It is made in the USA by a custom knifemaker in CPM-3V steel and a fantastic edge grind. Does that make it worth $340 to you compared to the standard production model? That's a question only you can answer for yourself. I personally would consider the Ban Tang version to be reasonably priced as well.

Another very interesting example: the Amtac Blades Northman. It is an excellent, well thought out blade with a cool sheath system and even comes with a training blade. However, the biggest secret about these knives that you will never get an answer to is where they are made. Trust me, I've asked several times, never gotten a reply. So again the question is: is a well designed blade in M390 steel and good kydex sheath and training blade worth $450 to you (knowing that it is probably mass produced in China)?

[Elwin]

I’ve been window shopping for knives myself recently. Granted, I know little about them compared to what I know about guns, but I’ve run into a similar issue with price. My tentative solution is that if all the production knives that fit my criteria are going to be around $200 and up, then I might as well get a custom made knife instead for a similar price.

Also, perhaps relevant to you, my understanding is that Zulu Bravo is starting to offer a “basic” line that are, well, basic versions of his blades that run right around $200. I’d definitely go for one of those over a production knife of similar price, especially since his will come with a top quality sheath, and if the trainer and its sheath aren’t included it’s probably about $40 to add them.

[Hambo]

I don't mind buying a China Pick or PD because Craig is open about where they're made and why he went that route. I also think the price he charges is reasonable for what you get. I will not buy from a "maker" who isn't open about his knives being made in China because he's lying by omission. I also won't pay Ban Tang custom prices for Chinese production blades. My stance does not seem to be hurting these businesses.

[blues]

Being an educated consumer matters.

Know what you want and why. Look at the materials, reputation of the maker, where it is made, (if that matters to you, it does to me), and how it is made.

If it is to fill a specific niche, know your niche and why it makes sense.

I am not an expert on blades used in the defensive arena, and I rarely carry one for that specific purpose. When I do, it's the ShivWorks push dagger. It's simple, reliable and intuitive.

Prices are rarely the best barometer.

[Clusterfrack]

$1500 for a Tracker Dan knife seems excessive to me. What does that offer above a $300 Joe Watson or Ban Tang?

There are collectables, and there are tools. I'll pay for a top quality tool. I do not collect knives. (Although my wife might beg to differ).

How about a $300 handmade knife vs. a $100 knife made of Chinesium? Both have their place in my toolkit. If I'm flying for a trip, I'm not likely to put an irreplaceable Ban Tang or Watson in my checked baggage.

[Old Man Winter]

$1500 for a Tracker Dan knife seems excessive to me. What does that offer above a $300 Joe Watson or Ban Tang?

There are collectables, and there are tools. I'll pay for a top quality tool. I do not collect knives. (Although my wife might beg to differ).

How about a $300 handmade knife vs. a $100 knife made of Chinesium? Both have their place in my toolkit. If I'm flying for a trip, I'm not likely to put an irreplaceable Ban Tang or Watson in my checked baggage.

With damn few exceptions $1500 Tracker Dan blades only exist on the secondary market or when trying to win a social media auction. Get on his wait list or hit up a show.

[JohnO]

Knife guys are definitely a unique breed. A number of years ago I went to a Knife Show in NYC with some friends. It was more of something to do and a meetup of guys we know than to go to the show. I was amazed at all the young guys carrying wads of folded 100 dollar bills salivating at knives on display and just begging to purchase. Most of those guys were wearing some sort of reference to the Usual Suspects Network forum. Lots of toxic green goat emblems on display.

One of my buddies told me to enter the raffle taking place at the Emerson tables. He had just entered. So I walked over and started filling out an entry when Ernest Emerson and his wife asked me if I knew what I was entering. I just said of course thinking, who doesn't know what a raffle is? Low and behold my entry was drawn. I spotted the bold blue ink from the Flair Pen in my pocket I used on the ticket from across the room as the ticket was being withdrawn from the jar.

So I walk up to the table and get presented with a number of Ernest Emerson hand made custom knives I can pick from. My winning ticket gave me first pick and the right to purchase what everyone wanted, hence the previous asking by the Emersons, "do you know what you are entering". Price started somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000. Well I guess I learned my lesson that day about not assuming I knew what I was entering. I pretty much said nice knives but I'm not in the market for a $1,000 pocket knife. It was right about this time when a guy standing next to me said, "I'll give you $100 for that ticket". I gave him the ticket and walked away. I was content to just get out of my embarrassing situation. That guy came looking for me at the show and said, "A deal is a deal". He insisted I take the $100. That was cool because it paid for my lunch and show entry.

Today I have a few utilitarian carry knives. Swiss Army of course and my favorite carry blade is a Joe Watson Magni. I have a AMTAC Northman I ordered before they were announced after training with Bill Rapier. I got the student/tribe pre-order price. The most unique thing about that knife and what appealed to me was the sheath. The sheath enables the ability to front pocket carry a quickly stealthily deployable fixed blade.

[blues]

JohnO

The professionals enter the drawing, purchase the knife and then turn around and sell it for hundreds of dollars more than they paid while hovering around the maker's table. It's like blood in the water around sharks. Been that way since I can remember. Of course, those who revere the knives can get one at the maker's price, which is a bargain compared to the aftermarket.

I won at the Tony Bose drawing once and traded for another Bose I wanted. I've since sold the only two I had for several years.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I'll pay for original thought and design specificity - that's part of why I have no problem with the Clinch Pick. That's an extremely specialized knife. The egg grip, the reverse edge, the whole deal. It's all worth spending money to have. I carry one every day.

Or the Spyderco Salt series...that makes sense to me. Obscure steel that's apparently impervious to rust in an extremely corrosive environment? I can see where my money is going.

What I won't spend big money on is a 4" fixed drop point, or some variant of that, unless I guess I had the money to buy art; that's totally different. But as far as the knife goes, I'm sorry, if it does the same stuff as a knife I could knock together myself in an afternoon, and honestly knife performance is not particularly well-correlated with price in my experience...then no.

At a totally basic level: a knife is a really wide, shallow wedge of a pretty cheap, commonly available material, shaped in a manner that's evolved over thousands of years to a pretty well-understood profile. I'm not giving somebody $500 for an attractive, heavy duty variant of a knife you could have found in a french peasant's kitchen at any point in the last 500 years, or for grinding an edge onto a small prybar, unless I'm straight up collecting art. Which maybe I would one day do, but not until I stop worrying that I'll have to pay for ice time for midget hockey playing kids.

[Clusterfrack]

Cost for all 3 these is about equal to my carry gun and holster.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210429/993c719cc4128e547d7f692d6830d0be.jpg

[Trooper224]

Here's the perspective of someone who's being collecting and dealing with edged weapons for over forty years: as a knife, in any task a knife might need to perform in any defensive scenario, pick your choice of the cheap kitchen knives in the store and it will serve just as well.

There are things you may be paying for: originality of design, market demand, materials, the makers time and research, as well as their name. Very little of it ever tangibly translates into the actual worth of the materials and processes involved.

I know a particular swordsmith who's widely acknowledged as one of the modern masters of the craft. It took him a while to get a handle on pricing and perception. He had one particular piece he displayed at shows that didn't get much traction. It was a nice piece and he'd priced it fairly, but collectors would pick it up, admire it, then look at the price and walk on. The obvious thinking was, "something that cheap has to have something wrong with it" Eventually, he doubled the price and it sold at the next show to one of the very same collectors who'd previously passed. Perception is a strange thing.

I know another swordsmith in the same stratum. I first met him twenty years ago, at that time I bought a sword from him that, to this day, remains the centerpiece of my collection. I was lucky in that regard. Back then, he had only been practicing the craft for about four years. This was also the early days of the internet, so exposure happened more by word of mouth and a few trade publications. He was just entering the, "Who is this guy?" phase of his career. I paid what was then a large sum of money for that sword. Today, he's one of the highest profile guys in the craft and the value of that sword has more than tripled. I recently bought a dagger he made for another collector about ten years ago. I paid as much for it as I did the sword twenty years past. Today, I could sell both for whatever I asked and I'd have them sold in less than twenty four hours. Come to think of it, they're both in my avatar.

Today, both of these men can make whatever they want, charge whatever they want and they'll get it. The demand for their work is that strong and they have a sense of cache associated with their names that people want to live vicariously through. Personally, if I ever again acquire a piece from either of them it will be on the secondary market. Their pricing has risen far above my own comfort zone and I just can't see the sense in spending that much for something so unnecessary, from a modern sense. When dealing with so many intangible things asking, "Is it worth it?" is useless. The better question is, "Is it worth it to me?"

Perception+Demand+Supply=Worth.

I carry a $35 pocket knife.

[Mark D]

Another very interesting example: the Amtac Blades Northman. It is an excellent, well thought out blade with a cool sheath system and even comes with a training blade. However, the biggest secret about these knives that you will never get an answer to is where they are made. Trust me, I've asked several times, never gotten a reply. So again the question is: is a well designed blade in M390 steel and good kydex sheath and training blade worth $450 to you (knowing that it is probably mass produced in China)?

EDIT: I belated realized that javemtr was referring to the Amtac version of the Northman, not the original version made by Northman. And yes, the country of origin is conspicuously absent from Amtac's website.

I suspect the cost is high on some of these blades because they are associated with members and former members of Tier 1 units.

I'll stick with Benchmade, Spyerco, and the like.

[Norville]

There is a lot of hype in the knife world surrounding provenance and real deal design and usage experience. Most of it is an excuse to charge more. Some of the expensive boutique made in China models are interesting, but no way are they worth the full price to me. Not when you can source an equivalent, custom made piece for far less.

High end material that requires more grinding and heat treat, custom grinds and handwork justify higher prices where mass production, even in limited runs in an automated factory does not in my opinion.

We are not talking high tech intellectual property here, it’s one off man’s oldest tools. And employment doesn’t require a doctorate in some mysterious art. To quote SouthNarc, “monkey with a screwdriver “ works pretty well.

:cool:

[JohnO]

JohnO

The professionals enter the drawing, purchase the knife and then turn around and sell it for hundreds of dollars more than they paid while hovering around the maker's table. It's like blood in the water around sharks. Been that way since I can remember. Of course, those who revere the knives can get one at the maker's price, which is a bargain compared to the aftermarket.

I won at the Tony Bose drawing once and traded for another Bose I wanted. I've since sold the only two I had for several years.

After we got bored at the Show we all went to the Carnegie Deli and I was told, I screwed up! One of the guys we met at the Deli and has since become a friend told me I should have purchased the knife. Then immediately walked off to the side of the room and said, Custom Emerson For Sale to highest bidder and start at my purchase price Plus $500. I never regretted how it panned out.

The same guy while we were in the Deli pulled a rolled up brown paper lunch bag out of his pocket. He said, "Look what I got". He was obviously very pleased with what he had and very proud in displaying this recent acquisition. He took the rubber band off the bag, unrolled and pulled out what looked like two slabs of petrified dog turds. Trying to be polite I asked, "What is it"? He told me Mastodon Ivory. Boy he was tickled pink! To each their own. He was headed back to the Show and he was delivering the Ivory to a knife maker with whom he had commissioned a knife and the Ivory was for the handle.

[BigD]

While the blades you listed are all excellent, some of the prices are not reasonable. Some blades/makers are trending with certain groups and those people are willing to snatch up all the available stock and pay outrageous prices to get their hands on those knives. Ultimately, I don't think you can blame any of the makers, people will pay what they think is reasonable for them.

The Shivworks production Clinch Pick is not a good comparison in this regard, because this knife is specifically designed as a low cost, mass produced self defense knife and openly marketed as such. So it is not trying to be something it is not. Craig is selling these at a reasonable price for what they are. Now let's take a look at the fancy Ban Tang Knives version of the Clinch Pick. It is made in the USA by a custom knifemaker in CPM-3V steel and a fantastic edge grind. Does that make it worth $340 to you compared to the standard production model? That's a question only you can answer for yourself. I personally would consider the Ban Tang version to be reasonably priced as well.

Another very interesting example: the Amtac Blades Northman. It is an excellent, well thought out blade with a cool sheath system and even comes with a training blade. However, the biggest secret about these knives that you will never get an answer to is where they are made. Trust me, I've asked several times, never gotten a reply. So again the question is: is a well designed blade in M390 steel and good kydex sheath and training blade worth $450 to you (knowing that it is probably mass produced in China)?

It's made in China. Bill Rapier can come here and prove me wrong. I'm sure someone here that took one of his classes will forward this to him.

------

I'll add that the toughness and superior edge retention of M390 steel probably isn't necessary on a defensive blade - which is probably a good thing since there are indications that some Chinese "M390" blades aren't actually made of M390. Bark River, CRKT and even Spyderco have had problems with Chinese suppliers switching steels on them.

[BigD]

We are not talking high tech intellectual property here, it’s one off man’s oldest tools. And employment doesn’t require a doctorate in some mysterious art SAYOC. To quote @SouthNarc (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=10), “monkey with a screwdriver “ works pretty well.

:cool:

Fixed that for you.

[Old Man Winter]

Another very interesting example: the Amtac Blades Northman. It is an excellent, well thought out blade with a cool sheath system and even comes with a training blade. However, the biggest secret about these knives that you will never get an answer to is where they are made. Trust me, I've asked several times, never gotten a reply. So again the question is: is a well designed blade in M390 steel and good kydex sheath and training blade worth $450 to you (knowing that it is probably mass produced in China)?

The Northman appears to be heavily influenced by the Cold Steel Mini Culloden and Spyderco Fish Hunter. Both of those blades were favorites of a certain NSW command. The sheath and clip are an evolution of what Tracker Dan designed a decade ago. The "tribe" has been messing around with that finger hook style grip for a while and you'll find variations of it on other "tribe" blades such as the RAT and Dynamis offerings.

[Mark D]

Pardon a slight thread drift...

After attending EWO, I tend to think the "monkey with a screw driver" approach is probably damn effective. So I've often wondered why some legit face-shooters, of the highest caliber, are so enamored of the FMA.

[Phaedrus]

Pricing can be a fraught issue, especially with knives. I do a little sharpening on the side, mainly Japanese kitchen knives on water stones as a rule. Most of my EDC blades are under $150 with a Spyderco Delica in HAP40 being my main squeeze. I'm an avid bushcrafter and camper, and my woods blades are generally $30 to $200, with a couple of customs that were more. Honestly I usually have a cheap Mora, a folder in my pocket a maybe an $80 Terava Skrama if I'm planning to process a fair amount of wood.

That said I'm a chef and I'll confess that my most expensive gyuto was north of $900 and is the centerpiece of my collection. It's a work of art that actually works! Yet I'd never try to suggest that it's a rational investment even for a guy that spends 50+ hours a week with a blade. It's just an objet d'art that I just had to have. IME there's a sweet spot towards the middle where you get a maximal blend of utility and price. For a kitchen knife (Western cuisine, natch) that's in the $200-$350 range. Two hundred gets you a lot more performance than $100 but the law of diminishing returns kicks in fast around $400.

[javemtr]

The Northman appears to be heavily influenced by the Cold Steel Mini Culloden and Spyderco Fish Hunter. Both of those blades were favorites of a certain NSW command. The sheath and clip are an evolution of what Tracker Dan designed a decade ago. The "tribe" has been messing around with that finger hook style grip for a while and you'll find variations of it on other "tribe" blades such as the RAT and Dynamis offerings.
The Northman is an awesome design for sure, I've had it in my shopping cart several times and yet could never pull the trigger, simply for that one issue alone. Heck, I'm not even against knives from China (although I choose to buy American or European whenever I can), I just want them to stand up and admit it.

[SouthNarc]

We've always been very transparent about the the ShivWorks production knives being made in China. I wanted to bring a blade to the market that was right around a bill, that someone wouldn't cry about when it's sitting in an evidence bag after using. I think personally the ShivWorks blades, especially the newest 2.0 iterations, represent good value but even we get people bitching about paying a hundred bucks for a knife made in China. That being said the market says that we're at the right price point because our business is doing quite well.

[MickAK]

Knives have always been violently overpriced. There is a deep cultural attachment to the 'one true blade' having special powers. More $ = more special powers.

Few of us are truly immune to that. The CP is the most expensive blade I have for daily usage. But I bought a $450 kitchen knife in Germany because it had an oddly shaped handle and looked like it was from space. I would swear it's made from special magical steel they got from the moon or the secret Nazi base in Antarctica. I know better, but it's a hard feeling to shake.

[blues]

I could chair a support group, but then I'd have to admit how many knives I own and their value...

So, just keep on keeping on.

And Craig, your push dagger is aces with me this monkey. (Though I'll take Taiwan over China every day, until they are brought under their thumb. I think it's an excellent tool for its purpose.)

[WobblyPossum]

My problem isn’t that a knife might be made in China. I carry a production Clinch Pick every day and absolutely love the design. My problem is when the people selling high priced knives with descriptions, prices, and designers that hint a knife might be made in the USA won’t actually tell you where the knife is manufactured. If you’re squirrely about telling people the country where your knife is actually made, I automatically assume the knife is made in a country like China because the first thing anyone with a “Made in the USA” product advertises is that it’s “Made in the USA.” If you’re trying to hide that your knife is made in China, or even worse, misleading potential customers into thinking that your knife is USA made, that tells me a lot about your integrity.

[Dave Williams]

Love my Northman, as far as I know there's nothing like it available for purchase. Expensive for sure. Looking to pick up a new improved version soon, and I'd like to get both my sons one. $$$$

[blues]

My problem isn’t that a knife might be made in China. I carry a production Clinch Pick every day and absolutely love the design. My problem is when the people selling high priced knives with descriptions, prices, and designers that hint a knife might be made in the USA won’t actually tell you where the knife is manufactured. If you’re squirrely about telling people the country where your knife is actually made, I automatically assume the knife is made in a country like China because the first thing anyone with a “Made in the USA” product advertises is that it’s “Made in the USA.” If you’re trying to hide that your knife is made in China, or even worse, misleading potential customers into thinking that your knife is USA made, that tells me a lot about your integrity.

Any failure to provide full transparency...country of origin, steel, rockwell hardness, (if requested), or other material item would be a complete "no go" for me. The consumer is entitled to the info. If he / she / it doesn't care, that's another matter.

I personally prefer non PRC knives, but I have one or two in the collection. Hell, it would be disingenuous to pretend that half the crap in our homes isn't derived from the PRC.

Bottom line: Full disclosure or no purchase.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

We've always been very transparent about the the ShivWorks production knives being made in China. I wanted to bring a blade to the market that was right around a bill, that someone wouldn't cry about when it's sitting in an evidence bag after using. I think personally the ShivWorks blades, especially the newest 2.0 iterations, represent good value but even we get people bitching about paying a hundred bucks for a knife made in China. That being said the market says that we're at the right price point because our business is doing quite well.

The Clinch Pick is such an unusual design, though, that I think the R&D there should (!) be obvious to people. Paying for R&D is totally reasonable; there's a ton of knowledge and experience you're spending money to get. I carry a production version because I'm Canadian and I'm cheap. But how many knives do what it does? None exactly, and of the similar-ish options, how many have been put through the development process of the pick? How many come with the option of building a whole fighting philosophy around the methodology that the pick was designed to maximize? That's all stuff that I think is worth something. It's legitimate value.



What I don't get is buying Extrema Ratio knives for $500+ when you look at the design and go "that's a knife." Like really, you guys had to do a ton of work to get that design figured out? It's a piece of steel that's skinny on one side and you hold the other end and it costs as much as a professional-grade fighting pistol, what are we doing here?

[BillSWPA]

As a general rule, I have found that when going from a low priced product to a mid priced product, the rule that you get what you pay for applies in almost all cases. However, when going from a mid priced product to a high priced product, whether you get what you pay for depends greatly on what qualities beyond the performance of the device you seek.

In my opinion, the Shivworks knives are mid-priced products that absolutely prove that, in this price range, you get what you pay for.

The carry system contributes greatly - or detracts greatly - to the usefulness of a fixed blade knife. With some exceptions, the vast majority of fixed blade makers would be well advised to seriously increase their R&D for sheath and attachment designs. I have on occasion purchased an expensive knife not because I really liked the knife, but because I really liked the carry system (Bud Nealy Pesh Kabz). I have also spent three times as much on a carry system as for the knife itself (Ken Null ankle sheath for a Gerber Guardian).

SouthNarc has really put some serious thought into how the Shivworks knives are best carried, and the effort shows in the results.

[BigD]

Love my Northman, as far as I know there's nothing like it available for purchase. Expensive for sure. Looking to pick up a new improved version soon, and I'd like to get both my sons one. $$$$

There are others that are very similar, all with the Sayoc connection. Headhunter, Dynamis, Winkler (sorta), Tracker Dan, etc. Probably others.

Depending on what you consider similar, there's are many, many more knives out that most would consider similar. It's a 3.5" fixed blade that is on the pointy side - nothing extraordinary about it. I think the sheath separates it from the mass produced knives.

[Dave Williams]

I think the sheath separates it from the mass produced knives.

Bingo. And the hook (“punyo”) on the end of the handle to help in the draw.

[Caballoflaco]

Bingo. And the hook (“punyo”) on the end of the handle to help in the draw.

That hook also looks like it would prevent an edge-in reverse grip with the thumb over the pommel. That makes it a no-go for a defensive blade for me. Also, that point is too delicate with a single edge grind and is something I wouldn’t personally carry.

And this is what frustrates me. Knives are simple things like our Canadian friend mentions, but there there are so many small details that I would change on so many production and customs that I have a hard time spending over $100 bucks on something that I would be compelled to take to grinder to make it how I want it.

[Dave Williams]

That hook also looks like it would prevent an edge-in reverse grip with the thumb over the pommel.

Yeah it’s not designed for that grip.

[BigD]

Bingo. And the hook (“punyo”) on the end of the handle to help in the draw.

Has that been a big problem? Before you bought the Northman, were you missing your draw because your handle didn't have the hook?

[43Under]

Has that been a big problem? Before you bought the Northman, were you missing your draw because your handle didn't have the hook?

The sheath for the Northman is designed for pocket carry. So, though I don't own one, I can see how, in THAT carry position, having that hook on the end could help with the draw.

[Dave Williams]

The sheath for the Northman is designed for pocket carry. So, though I don't own one, I can see how, in THAT carry position, having that hook on the end could help with the draw.

Yes the hook is important due to the sheath design.

[Mark D]

The sheath for the Northman is designed for pocket carry. So, though I don't own one, I can see how, in THAT carry position, having that hook on the end could help with the draw.

I think it helped me at a recent FoF class. I was in a FUT and was able to spontaneously pluck a Northman training blade from the role player's pocket and start imitating the afore mentioned monkey.

That's not a slam on the design - I like the knife. But it's a non starter for me because carrying a concealed fixed blade knife in my jurisdiction is a felony.

As an aside, that's the second time I've used an opponent's knife against him in FoF. I think that speaks to the value of having one's defensive tools well concealed.

[frank]

I think it helped me at a recent FoF class. I was in a FUT and was able to spontaneously pluck a Northman training blade from the role player's pocket and start imitating the afore mentioned monkey.

That's not a slam on the design - I like the knife. But it's a non starter for me because carrying a concealed fixed blade knife in my jurisdiction is a felony.

As an aside, that's the second time I've used an opponent's knife against him in FoF. I think that speaks to the value of having one's defensive tools well concealed.

I have a Northman and really like the design. However, I had this exact thing happen to me on several occasions in a FoF class, where my opponent (a Sayoc "tribe" guy) plucked the trainer version out of my pocket and made lots of pretend holes in me. It was eye opening.

I'm back to concealing off-hand in the belt.

My favorite use for the Northman now is deep pocket sheathed in the right back pocket of a bike jersey while riding.

[underhook]

There is some luxury branding and pride of ownership going on. Tracker Dan blades are expensive because they are hard to get. You see the same with Half Face Blades.

I used to have a Trace Rinaldi clinch pick because the blade offers a unique capability. As soon as the china picks appeared I sold it and now have four picks and won't cry about ditching one.

The AMTAC Northman has a unique sheath design that lets me carry carry it like a folder. I remember SouthNarc has a P'kal fixed blade made by someone in Germany with the same features. I tried for a while to buy one and could not. As soon as someone copies it for a bill I'll be selling my northman.

So two markets. 1) on function 2) pride of ownership. A knife can be expensive for (1) if it has no option and a lower price point. (2) is all about the high price and availability. Toor knives is interesting as they are producing high quality knives at 2 bill prices.

[Totem Polar]

underhook: all the way. I’m of the same mind: all my Ban Tangs are gone, but I still have several redundant china picks—among other mass-produced pikalish blades.

[JohnO]

Don't know if you folks are aware but unfortunately Northman passed. Frank passed back in September from COVID complications. We are severely diminished!

https://kileyfuneralhome.com/tribute/details/5535/Frank-Windle-Jr/obituary.html


https://youtu.be/O4dArj6__OA

[Hot Sauce]

The AMTAC Northman has a unique sheath design that lets me carry carry it like a folder. I remember @SouthNarc (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=10) has a P'kal fixed blade made by someone in Germany with the same features. I tried for a while to buy one and could not. As soon as someone copies it for a bill I'll be selling my northman.

I believe this Frenchman's knifes are what you may be referring to:

Craig's instagram (https://www.instagram.com/p/CErUcMtplPb/)
Tony Lopes Blades, Skeleton (https://www.tonylopesblades.com/copie-de-sicario)

[underhook]

I believe this Frenchman's knifes are what you may be referring to:

Craig's instagram (https://www.instagram.com/p/CErUcMtplPb/)
Tony Lopes Blades, Skeleton (https://www.tonylopesblades.com/copie-de-sicario)


That is not it. It’s a copy of the spyderco folder but a fixed blade with pocket clip. I’ve handled it a EWO. Craig pointed me to the maker as Kyle Lambs rep in Germany. No response. You can see it sometimes in Craig’s gram. The recent Hawaii ewo had it in the table.

It is on the table to right of blue disciple trainer. Grayish sheath.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CS2unbmpHsc/?utm_medium=copy_link

[Hot Sauce]

That is not it. It’s a copy of the spyderco folder but a fixed blade with pocket clip. I’ve handled it a EWO. Craig pointed me to the maker as Kyle Lambs rep in Germany. No response. You can see it sometimes in Craig’s gram. The recent Hawaii ewo had it in the table.

It is on the table to right of blue disciple trainer. Grayish sheath.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CS2unbmpHsc/?utm_medium=copy_link

Huh, don't think I've seen that one. Though I do remember something similar in concept, a fixed blade disciple in a pocket clip set up made for pocket carry. I believe JodyH had one.

[Totem Polar]

That is not it. It’s a copy of the spyderco folder but a fixed blade with pocket clip. I’ve handled it a EWO. Craig pointed me to the maker as Kyle Lambs rep in Germany. No response. You can see it sometimes in Craig’s gram. The recent Hawaii ewo had it in the table.

It is on the table to right of blue disciple trainer. Grayish sheath.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CS2unbmpHsc/?utm_medium=copy_link

Looks like a Spyderco Reverse, with cut down scales by Tom from Dark Star Gear. Best guess.

:)

https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/FB34G/Reverse-trade-/914

ETA: scratch that; blue disciple trainer… I had the wrong blue trainer. Nevermind.

[PNWTO]

That is not it. It’s a copy of the spyderco folder but a fixed blade with pocket clip. I’ve handled it a EWO. Craig pointed me to the maker as Kyle Lambs rep in Germany. No response. You can see it sometimes in Craig’s gram. The recent Hawaii ewo had it in the table.

It is on the table to right of blue disciple trainer. Grayish sheath.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CS2unbmpHsc/?utm_medium=copy_link

The form factor looks like something from Zulu Bravo, maybe a Sharpfinger?

[Norville]

That is not it. It’s a copy of the spyderco folder but a fixed blade with pocket clip. I’ve handled it a EWO. Craig pointed me to the maker as Kyle Lambs rep in Germany. No response. You can see it sometimes in Craig’s gram. The recent Hawaii ewo had it in the table.

It is on the table to right of blue disciple trainer. Grayish sheath.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CS2unbmpHsc/?utm_medium=copy_link


The form factor looks like something from Zulu Bravo, maybe a Sharpfinger?


I saw the same one in my EWO class and was intrigued. It is none of the ones mentioned, maker is in Germany per Craig but I have had no luck finding it since, although I seem to think I ran across it once earlier while surfing knife makers on the web.

[Clusterfrack]

Looks like a Spyderco Reverse, with cut down scales

Like this?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211105/611a5c18b6a3df7975706cf7dc4b6f42.jpg

[Totem Polar]

Like this?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211105/611a5c18b6a3df7975706cf7dc4b6f42.jpg

Yes. Nice clip.

[underhook]

I saw the same one in my EWO class and was intrigued. It is none of the ones mentioned, maker is in Germany per Craig but I have had no luck finding it since, although I seem to think I ran across it once earlier while surfing knife makers on the web.

Craig explained it was the guy who runs Viking Tactics for Kyle Lamb in Germany. His not responded. I think this could be a great product, but I'm running the AMTAC which fills the gap.

[RancidSumo]

I believe this Frenchman's knifes are what you may be referring to:

Craig's instagram (https://www.instagram.com/p/CErUcMtplPb/)
Tony Lopes Blades, Skeleton (https://www.tonylopesblades.com/copie-de-sicario)


Looks like the "Stabby" to me, and now I want one.

https://www.tonylopesblades.com/nouveautes

[Totem Polar]

Looks like the "Stabby" to me, and now I want one.

https://www.tonylopesblades.com/nouveautes

Pikal AF

[Norville]

Not the Lopes, which are some nice blades.

[Wheeler]

I realize that it’s a departure from the particular style of knives most of the thread participants carry but, what about Randall Made Knives? Does anyone own one? Is the juice really worth that much squeeze?

I get there’s a cult following of certain makers and/or brands and I get there’s a charge for materials and for craftsmanship. Every time I see one I think how neat it would be to own one and then wonder what possible advantages it would provide over my first Gen DPx HEST?

[Wondering Beard]

I realize that it’s a departure from the particular style of knives most of the thread participants carry but, what about Randall Made Knives? Does anyone own one? Is the juice really worth that much squeeze?

I get there’s a cult following of certain makers and/or brands and I get there’s a charge for materials and for craftsmanship. Every time I see one I think how neat it would be to own one and then wonder what possible advantages it would provide over my first Gen DPx HEST?

I own a 1-7 with the sharpened clip.

Yes it is worth the squeeze, IMO.

[Wheeler]

I own a 1-7 with the sharpened clip.

Yes it is worth the squeeze, IMO.

What makes it worth that sort of money?

[Wondering Beard]

What makes it worth that sort of money?

Keep in mind that I got mine in the late 90s and I haven't been keeping up with prices.

I imagine that, on paper, it doesn't look like there's much that differentiates it from other cheaper but quality knives but when you hold one in your hands, that changes. I can't really explain it better than that; the way to moves in, and with the hand is something that I don't get from any other knife of its size and purpose; everything else is too heavy, or too light, or balanced wrong somehow.

I wish I could give you something truly objective to use but the above is the best I've got :-)

[Wheeler]

Keep in mind that I got mine in the late 90s and I haven't been keeping up with prices.

I imagine that, on paper, it doesn't look like there's much that differentiates it from other cheaper but quality knives but when you hold one in your hands, that changes. I can't really explain it better than that; the way to moves in, and with the hand is something that I don't get from any other knife of its size and purpose; everything else is too heavy, or too light, or balanced wrong somehow.

I wish I could give you something truly objective to use but the above is the best I've got :-)

I would accept that as a quantitative reason. :)

[Gun Mutt]

Don't know if you folks are aware but unfortunately Northman passed. Frank passed back in September from COVID complications. We are severely diminished!

https://kileyfuneralhome.com/tribute/details/5535/Frank-Windle-Jr/obituary.html


https://youtu.be/O4dArj6__OA

Thanks for posting this, thought it was great! Parts 1 & 2 are the best hour I've spent on my martial learning in a long, long time. I thought part 3 was a little drier, but definitely worth watching just on principle.

I've tried Frank Windler and Northman when searching Instagram and have yet to find his account, I take it there are some drills on there I'd very much like to see...can anyone help a brother out?

[JohnO]

I've tried Frank Windler and Northman when searching Instagram and have yet to find his account, I take it there are some drills on there I'd very much like to see...can anyone help a brother out?

https://www.instagram.com/northmanblades/

[newyork]

There’s also northmanactual as the other tag name.

https://instagram.com/northmanactual?utm_medium=copy_link

[Gun Mutt]

There’s also northmanactual as the other tag name.

https://instagram.com/northmanactual?utm_medium=copy_link

Yes! Found this one last night, lots of good stuff on there.

Thanks gents.

[Mjolnir]

While the blades you listed are all excellent, some of the prices are not reasonable. Some blades/makers are trending with certain groups and those people are willing to snatch up all the available stock and pay outrageous prices to get their hands on those knives. Ultimately, I don't think you can blame any of the makers, people will pay what they think is reasonable for them.

The Shivworks production Clinch Pick is not a good comparison in this regard, because this knife is specifically designed as a low cost, mass produced self defense knife and openly marketed as such. So it is not trying to be something it is not. Craig is selling these at a reasonable price for what they are. Now let's take a look at the fancy Ban Tang Knives version of the Clinch Pick. It is made in the USA by a custom knifemaker in CPM-3V steel and a fantastic edge grind. Does that make it worth $340 to you compared to the standard production model? That's a question only you can answer for yourself. I personally would consider the Ban Tang version to be reasonably priced as well.

Another very interesting example: the Amtac Blades Northman. It is an excellent, well thought out blade with a cool sheath system and even comes with a training blade. However, the biggest secret about these knives that you will never get an answer to is where they are made. Trust me, I've asked several times, never gotten a reply. So again the question is: is a well designed blade in M390 steel and good kydex sheath and training blade worth $450 to you (knowing that it is probably mass produced in China)?

More importantly for me is there is the grip is too short; your hand is AWFULLY CLOSE to a very sharp blade. Give me an extra 1/2" and a guard such that my hand will not move forward and I'd purchase two.

[Controlledpairs2]

More importantly for me is there is the grip is too short; your hand is AWFULLY CLOSE to a very sharp blade. Give me an extra 1/2" and a guard such that my hand will not move forward and I'd purchase two.

The minuteman or Magnus would be better suited for you. as you probably already know, the northman makes some compromises for maximum concealment or convenience in pocket carry. For full sized hands, a full forward grip or reverse grip is not viable.

When in reverse grip, the designer intended for you to thumb cap and reinforce the thumb cap with the index finger. In forward grip, the punyo is to be tucked into the palm by the pinky and ring fingers for the palm assisted thrusting.

[Mjolnir]

The minuteman or Magnus would be better suited for you. as you probably already know, the northman makes some compromises for maximum concealment or convenience in pocket carry. For full sized hands, a full forward grip or reverse grip is not viable.

When in reverse grip, the designer intended for you to thumb cap and reinforce the thumb cap with the index finger. In forward grip, the punyo is to be tucked into the palm by the pinky and ring fingers for the palm assisted thrusting.

Their website does not give dimensions but from the videos I've seen people's hands still seem awfully close.

I'll give them a call.

Thank you.

[Controlledpairs2]

Their website does not give dimensions but from the videos I've seen people's hands still seem awfully close.

I'll give them a call.

Thank you.

My hands are small, so I can get a full reverse and forward grip on a northman.

Here, I am holding a Magnus trainer (Magnus and Minuteman handles are the same size). My small hands leave 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of space. I know this doesnt give you exact dimensions but I hope it helps in a small way.
84949

[Joe S]

The best way to figure out if a knife "fits", IMO, is to just make a trainer. Find picture of knife on internet, resize the picture to IRL dimensions, print, trace onto a piece of wood or plastic cutting board, cut out.