Holosun circle and circle dot for EDC

[GJM]

For pure technical shooting, I prefer a single dot over circle and circle dot reticles, such as what is offered on a number of Holosun pistol optics. In low sun angles, the Sig Romeo 3 Max and Romeo 3 XL are head and shoulders above all other choices in terms of a usable dot in the widest range of sun conditions. Of course the R3 Max and XL are competition oriented optics, and not suitable for EDC due to their relative fragility and how they (don't) play with BUIS.

For EDC, I have come to believe a Holosun circle or circle dot reticle is the most forgiving reticle available across a wide range of sun angles, varying light AND with an imperfect index that results in an off center dot. Stick that optic into a low sun angle in the desert, where an individual dot is indistinguishable from sun splatter, and the circle provides a perfect aiming reference. If you have ever shot a legacy AUG much, you will instantly understand the concept of a "donut of death."

The only downsides to the circle and circle dot reticle I have noted is they go through batteries quicker in the 507K which has no auto setting or solar assist. Also, the 509T is unique in it offers a dot and circle dot, but not my preferred circle.

If you haven't messed with just a circle reticle for EDC, check it out!

[alamo5000]

I'm new to RDS and I am running my 507K-X2 with the circle and dot. I don't see anything negative about it from my vantage point.
The pros to it though are that it's way easier to learn and pick up a huge 32 MOA circle. With practice I've gotten way more comfortable with a dot because of this. I've shot in various lighting and it works all around. I'm now a big RDS fan.

[DMCutter]

I use the circle on my 365 and Hellcat for EDC although I prefer the dot for the range. I swap guns periodically so they spend a goodly amount of time sleeping. Both have only been in service about 9 months and the original batteries are still holding up fine.

[medmo]

My experience is comparing the circle dot and dot, Holosun 507C, from conceal carry, 7 yards, 3”x5” index card, timed first shot on target. My accuracy was better with dot only and times were similar.

[CCT125US]

With astigmatism, the Eotech circle dot was less than ideal for me. Last Friday night, as the sun went down, the circle dot turned into a pixelated blob. I could not see through it, until I turned the brightness way down. This happened over the course of a 15yd walk back, so not much time. What worked at 10 yards, was completely unusable at 25. My range is situated facing east, so the sun sets over my shoulder. I could blame it on monovision correction, but I've never had that issue with other dots. Perhaps a case of too much clutter that I could not "see through". Experience like this just furthers my belief that RDS on pistols is not for me, at this time.

Understandably, my situation may not apply.

[GJM]

With astigmatism, the Eotech circle dot was less than ideal for me. Last Friday night, as the sun went down, the circle dot turned into a pixelated blob. I could not see through it, until I turned the brightness way down. This happened over the course of a 15yd walk back, so not much time. What worked at 10 yards, was completely unusable at 25. My range is situated facing east, so the sun sets over my shoulder. I could blame it on monovision correction, but I've never had that issue with other dots. Perhaps a case of too much clutter that I could not "see through". Experience like this just furthers my belief that RDS on pistols is not for me, at this time.

Understandably, my situation may not apply.

You should try just a circle, which you will naturally center your target in.

Good light, good day, I prefer a single dot. Go stick a dirty lens into a weird sun angle, or with a less than perfect grip and the appeal of the circle becomes obvious. Just a circle also minimizes dot wobble.

[David S.]

I dig circle only

[psalms144.1]

With astigmatism, the Eotech circle dot was less than ideal for me. Last Friday night, as the sun went down, the circle dot turned into a pixelated blob. I could not see through it, until I turned the brightness way down. This happened over the course of a 15yd walk back, so not much time. What worked at 10 yards, was completely unusable at 25. My range is situated facing east, so the sun sets over my shoulder. I could blame it on monovision correction, but I've never had that issue with other dots. Perhaps a case of too much clutter that I could not "see through". Experience like this just furthers my belief that RDS on pistols is not for me, at this time.

Understandably, my situation may not apply.Another issue is the Eotech is a projected hologram, not a simple light projection onto glass. This could make it less forgiving for your lighting situation and astigmatism.

As an aside, a buddy with astigmatism went to see a "name" eye specialist about possible PRK/Lasik for distance vision correction, and the eye specialist opined that astigmatism has nothing to do with distorted dots. Since I wasn't there, couldn't get more detailed info, and I wonder about this "specialist's" bona fides, since nearly everyone I know with astigmatism complains about dot distortion...

[JCN]

I have significant astigmatism but dots don’t bother me.

Brightness blob I don’t think has anything to do with it.

That’s why I like a good light auto adjust sensor like the RMR or RMSc.

[mrozowjj]

The only downsides to the circle and circle dot reticle I have noted is they go through batteries quicker in the 507K which has no auto setting or solar assist. Also, the 509T is unique in it offers a dot and circle dot, but not my preferred circle.

If you haven't messed with just a circle reticle for EDC, check it out!

I did not realize the 407k/507k didn't have an auto setting. I knew they didn't have the solor but I guess I had assumed they would still do the auto thing which is a bummer. I guess it's a good thing the battery can be replaced without taking it off the pistol at least. How quickly are your going through batteries on yours?

The 32 MOA circle holosun offers is really great for pistol centric shooting. Your brain hears 32 MOA and you instinctively think "This is massive!" but in reality it's only about 8" at 25 yards and less the closer your target is. For most EDC shots that is actually more than sufficiently small. The 32 MOA circle is about the same width as the A-zone of a USPSA target at 15 yards and slightly smaller than the C-zone at 25 yards. See pics here:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43785-Reference-Material-Red-Dot-Reticles-Relative-to-Targets-various-distances

That said I still prefer the 407CO 8 MOA circle the most. Something about my eyes (mild astigmatism or whatever) that 8 MOA circle looks perfect; the 32 MOA ring looks crisp but the 2 MOA dot in the center still looks like a starburst a bit. I can certainly work with it but I just love how simple that 8 MOA circle is. If Holosun would put that 8 MOA circle in their enclosed 509 body I would happily swap all my pistol optics out with it for the improved mounting system and peace of mind from the enclosed optic.

[GJM]

I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to get a 407 CO for a while.

[Nephrology]

Well this is timely, given that I just sent my spare 43 and spare 48 off for milling for the 507k...

Was considering the RMRcc but these seemed like the option to start with. May revisit the RMRcc down the line when these slides are back if I'm not happy with the Holosuns for whatever reason.

[RoyGBiv]

I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to get a 407 CO for a while.

Not sure if a 407K will suffice, or if availability of the K means that the CO is also shipping, but, I posted in the 407vs507 thread this morning, Kenzies told me today that they have tracking on their 407K X2 inbound shipment (ETA Thursday) and are expecting to be able to cover all backorders with 5 units left over.

[newyork]

I’m always on the edge of buying one and the Chinese company thing stops me. Not just made there but Chinese owned (correct me if I’m wrong). It’s probably silly since they seem to be really good and ironed out issues. That and even top notch companies say “made in China” on them (but the company is American in many cases)

[Nephrology]

I’m always on the edge of buying one and the Chinese company thing stops me. Not just made there but Chinese owned (correct me if I’m wrong). It’s probably silly since they seem to be really good and ironed out issues. That and even top notch companies say “made in China” on them (but the company is American in many cases)

That's why I don't mind putting them on my backup/trainers, but am hoping to be pleasantly surprised at their durability after testing. As long I can prove to myself that mine work, I don't have any problem with the idea of carrying them. Seems like the ones that work, work well.

[newyork]

That's why I don't mind putting them on my backup/trainers, but am hoping to be pleasantly surprised at their durability after testing. As long I can prove to myself that mine work, I don't have any problem with the idea of carrying them. Seems like the ones that work, work well.

It seems like more of them work very well. I think in my head it’s me wishing it wasn’t a Chinese company, but if they work, maybe I’m just being stubborn. I wouldn’t even think about it if it were not China. But I’ll probably be trying out a 509 anyway if I can get past that.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I have been beating the circle dot drum for pistol RDS applications for about a decade now, ever since I first experienced it on a Shield.

I am totally confused as to why it didn't immediately take over as the reticle of choice but I'm glad if people are looking at it again. Shield discontinued theirs, I think I was the only fan. They had a sponsored guy who hated it so much he used to rant about how dumb it was, which I thought was crazy. I don't know how many times I've talked about its utility here (and elsewhere, I used to rant about it in the magazine for example) but for whatever reason it never seemed to get any traction.

But I think it smokes everything for a general purpose pistol optic. You can get new people onto it really fast, too. Nice combination of high overall brightness to catch your eye, with a precise aiming point. For high speed rough work you can just slam the circle around. I love it, I think it's the only way to fly.

[Nephrology]

It seems like more of them work very well. I think in my head it’s me wishing it wasn’t a Chinese company, but if they work, maybe I’m just being stubborn. I wouldn’t even think about it if it were not China. But I’ll probably be trying out a 509 anyway if I can get past that.

Now that I'm moving fully over to pistols with optics, the savings they offer is impossible to ignore, especially for trainer duplicate pistols. Wrote out a couple different budgets/timelines for upgrading my carry guns and the difference is significant.

[newyork]

Especially the open emitter and k models. I’m looking at the 509 which is expensive for them but still only $430.

[GJM]

I really try to avoid made in or owned by China, but have accepted that Apple, Arcteryx and Holosun will be my exceptions because of the lack of better alternatives.

As to Holosun, I have come full circle (sorry) and find their line of the 507K, 508T and 509T to offer the best feature set for defensive pistol optics.

[Nephrology]

I really try to avoid made in or owned by China, but have accepted that Apple, Arcteryx and Holosun will be my exceptions because of the lack of better alternatives.

As to Holosun, I have come full circle (sorry) and find their line of the 507K, 508T and 509T to offer the best feature set for defensive pistol optics.

Your opinion definitely swayed me towards springing for direct milling for the 507Ks.

[newyork]

He also was the one that turned me on to the 509 (and/or 508). I’m thinking I want a closed emitter so...509.

[mrozowjj]

I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to get a 407 CO for a while.

I saw one a few weeks ago. I'll let you know next time I see one.

[RJ]

Great and timely thread; I’m very interested in y’alls views on this.

My milled 48 slide+507k arrived back from Primary Machine today. I shot my G34+507c with the 32MOA circle last range visit, and made a PR on The Test. Put circle on target, press trigger. It was almost like cheating.

I have virtually zip for Dot shooting rounds downrange, but based solely on one range session and a bit of dry practice, I’m favoring the circle so far.

[GJM]

Great and timely thread; I’m very interested in y’alls views on this.

My milled 48 slide+507k arrived back from Primary Machine today. I shot my G34+507c with the 32MOA circle last range visit, and made a PR on The Test. Put circle on target, press trigger. It was almost like cheating.

I have virtually zip for Dot shooting rounds downrange, but based solely on one range session and a bit of dry practice, I’m favoring the circle so far.

Like with most things, there are trade offs. A single dot makes precise shot calling easier, since a single dot lifts rather than a much larger circle. The circle can also draw your eyes from more of a target focus. The circle wiggles less than a dot, is easier to see part of when misaligned, and the big one is it eliminates splatter and phantom dots in weird sun angles.

If you think about it, shot calling is more important in a gaming situation than in a defensive scenario, where even a well placed shot can be ineffective. This makes the single dot more desirable for me competing and the circle more appealing defensively.

Just minutes after posting this morning, I encountered three coyotes walking my dog in the desert. One about twenty yards to our right, and two forty yards to my left in the direction of the riding sun. They beat feet without shooting, and I thought coyotes out chasing jack rabbits ought to get a pass, but that is exactly the scenario where the circle rocks.

[JCN]

RJ
GJM

I’m going to offer an alternate view because I think GJM is very smart and always makes great points.

I personally don’t think circle versus circle plus dot matters if you are a good shooter and have good binocular vision.

I do a fair amount of work with circle plus dot on defensive guns, my practice carry gun and my fighting revolver are both set up that way.

Here’s why I don’t think it practically matters except for slow fire, if you aren’t a good shooter or you only have one eye.

When I do drills, the gun and optic aren’t static. They move onto and off of the target. I’m never staring through the ring, the ring passes by and over the target and I can see it the millisecond before and after the sight gets there.

Plus my non-dominant eye lets me “see” what’s behind the sight in the same way that you can still “see” a target with iron sights blotting out half the target.

If you’re spending time having to hold on target and not dynamic in your acquisition and trigger break, then you might perceive a theoretical benefit of a circle without dot versus circle with a dot.

I’d say instead of a circle trying to hit a moving coyote at 40 yards, a dot with good iron backups would be better in diverse sighting conditions.

[GJM]

RJ
GJM

I’m going to offer an alternate view because I think GJM is very smart and always makes great points.

I personally don’t think circle versus circle plus dot matters if you are a good shooter and have good binocular vision.

I do a fair amount of work with circle plus dot on defensive guns, my practice carry gun and my fighting revolver are both set up that way.

Here’s why I don’t think it practically matters except for slow fire, if you aren’t a good shooter or you only have one eye.

When I do drills, the gun and optic aren’t static. They move onto and off of the target. I’m never staring through the ring, the ring passes by and over the target and I can see it the millisecond before and after the sight gets there.

Plus my non-dominant eye lets me “see” what’s behind the sight in the same way that you can still “see” a target with iron sights blotting out half the target.

If you’re spending time having to hold on target and not dynamic in your acquisition and trigger break, then you might perceive a theoretical benefit of a circle without dot versus circle with a dot.

I’d say instead of a circle trying to hit a moving coyote at 40 yards, a dot with good iron backups would be better in diverse sighting conditions.

As a two a day hiker with our bird dog, I get lots of opportunities to look at different red dots in weird sun angles. In the past, I have started threads with pictures of different optics in low sun angles. The RMS Shield series and Romeo 3 Max/XL single dots seem to do best in low sun angles. The SRO, RMR, DP Pro and Holosun single dots not so well. The circle works for me in adverse light, but if a single dot is preferable to your eyes and environment, the neat thing about a Holosun is you can choose the reticle you want. I would suggest folks experiment for themselves.

[Kanye Wyoming]

Just minutes after posting this morning, I encountered three coyotes while walking my dog in the desert. One about twenty yards to our right, and two forty yards to my left in the direction of the riding sun. They beat feet without shooting, and I thought coyotes out chasing jack rabbits ought to get a pass, but that is exactly the scenario where the circle rocks.
FIFY.

Trust me, I hate myself for doing that and I forgive you for hating me. I couldn't help myself, the image of three coyotes walking your dog was torturing me.

[GJM]

FIFY.

Trust me, I hate myself for doing that and I forgive you for hating me. I couldn't help myself, the image of three coyotes walking your dog was torturing me.

Hey, I aim to please, and posting on a mobile device only adds to the fun.

[JCN]

As a two a day hiker with our bird dog, I get lots of opportunities to look at different red dots in weird sun angles. In the past, I have started threads with pictures of different optics in low sun angles. The RMS Shield series and Romeo 3 Max/XL single dots seem to do best in low sun angles. The SRO, RMR, DP Pro and Holosun single dots not so well. The circle works for me in adverse light, but if a single dot is preferable to your eyes and environment, the neat thing about a Holosun is you can choose the reticle you want. I would suggest folks experiment for themselves.

Wonder the mechanism of the difference. Lens angle is pretty steep on the R3Max but maybe that’s why I’ve cracked three lenses.

And also wonder if the “issue” wouldn’t be solved with something simple like a green dot.

I have a 507c in green and if the issue is just confusing the dot with the sun, that might be a solution.

[GJM]

Wonder the mechanism of the difference. Lens angle is pretty steep on the R3Max but maybe that’s why I’ve cracked three lenses.

And also wonder if the “issue” wouldn’t be solved with something simple like a green dot.

I have a 507c in green and if the issue is just confusing the dot with the sun, that might be a solution.

A friend at Glock recently reported that a green Holosun worked well in adverse sun angles, where a red colored dot did not.

[JCN]

A friend at Glock recently reported that a green Holosun worked well in adverse sun angles, where a red colored dot did not.

The biology of human eye physiology heavily favors a green dot but cost and battery life have limited application.

If they ever make a gaming dot in green I am buying that even if I have to buy a pile of batteries.

If you’ve never tried a green dot, you should give it a whirl.

[newyork]

Is there a huge difference in battery life with green? Does Holosun offer most of their models in both red and green?

Although I want a closed emitter, I se the 507c is like $120 cheaper than the 509. Dang. $309 is pretty cheap.

[JCN]

My first green dot I got by mistake. They sent me a 507c-GR instead of a 507k and I figured I’d try it out. I was concerned that all my dot time was with a red dot and maybe I would somehow forget how to shoot or not recognize the stimulus.

I was wrong. It didn’t take any adjustment and the color just “pops.”

It’s actually easier than a red dot to pick up because there aren’t competing red type lights out there. No tail lights, no suns, no flames, there’s nothing else in most field of view that’s a green light.

I’ve heard some policemen pick green so as to help distinguish it from other red lights on cars and things.

So when we are talking about reticles and angles, it’s important to note how much of this is borne out of antiquated convention and technical limitations that will someday soon not be applicable.

[BobLoblaw]

In Holosun's recent video showing their new releases, they were saying the green emitters actually had better battery life. I won't pretend to understand how that works.

[newyork]

How do you feel about open vs closed emitter for a HD/carry/range optic for a civilian? I keep thinking with closed I won’t have to worry about lint/water and other stuff getting in the way of the emitter. Saves on maintenance too.

[JCN]

In Holosun's recent video showing their new releases, they were saying the green emitters actually had better battery life. I won't pretend to understand how that works.

No doubt the technology has improved and I would anticipate that it’ll take over in the not so distant future.


How do you feel about open vs closed emitter for a HD/carry/range optic for a civilian? I keep thinking with closed I won’t have to worry about lint/water and other stuff getting in the way of the emitter. Saves on maintenance too.

Others have different opinions, but everything is a compromise.

Indoor HD, lens and emitter should be clean and dry so no advantage of a closed emitter IMO.

Range optic, who cares. If it breaks or gets dirty, take a break and replace or clean it.

Carry, lint won’t bother it. Rain or water will affect it, but if you have a good index and BUIS, probably won’t functionally matter. Personally I’ll take the smaller profile and size of an open emitter for the time being.

RainX on the emitter and lens also helps to minimize issues.

[professor]

No doubt the technology has improved and I would anticipate that it’ll take over in the not so distant future.



10-12 years ago we were having the same conversation with carbine platforms.





Personally I’ll take the smaller profile and size of an open emitter for the time being.



Being able to mount the 509T so low sealed the deal for me. It is hard to have a smaller mounted profile than this with current open emitter options without going to a “slim-line intended” optic and reducing window size.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210427/489b0e6e88cd7cc592c6e042af084e89.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210427/a25047ae82395a8347c8b640c1286f7a.jpg

[newyork]

I suppose with a core it’d make more of a difference. Milling it that low seems a no brainer.

[professor]

I suppose with a core it’d make more of a difference. Milling it that low seems a no brainer.

A CORE won’t go as low as mine pictured above.

[newyork]

Right. That’s what I meant to say.

[Mark D]

Back to the original topic of circle reticles...

I'm a dot novice, but I've been using the Holosun circle reticle for several weeks after seeing GJM recommend it in another thread. I like the circle a lot, however I find myself losing a target focus, and instead focusing on the circle. This is particularly noticeable in dry fire with an occluded objective lens (tape on the front of the sight). With a dot its much easier (for me) to keep a target focus.

[GJM]

As I have said a few times, I prefer a single dot for technical shooting. However, given the binary nature of a dot, as in dot or no dot, I will take a circle to either no dot, or a splattering of multiple dots.

[mrozowjj]

In Holosun's recent video showing their new releases, they were saying the green emitters actually had better battery life. I won't pretend to understand how that works.

I saw that too and it made sense but I can't for the life of me explain it. Something about making that color being more efficient or using les volts or watts or something like that.

[RJ]

I saw that too and it made sense but I can't for the life of me explain it. Something about making that color being more efficient or using les volts or watts or something like that.

Yeah, that's it basically. A red LED will generally draw more current than a green LED.

In EE terms, Power in Watts is I (current) squared * R (resistance), so more current = more power consumption, i.e. shorter battery life. Less current = less power consumption, longer battery life. Here's a typical graph of current vs. voltage for various LED colors I found at random:

70775

Follow the curves up from a supply voltage of say 1.5V and read across for Amperage; the green LED uses less current than Red, by quite a bit.

The efficacy of red vs. green in cognitive terms varies quite a bit by individual. I find green quite hard to pick out, as compared say between a red or green fiber optic pipe, I pick up red much better than green. But I have some odd color deficiencies in my sighting, so I'm not probably a good representative of gen pop in those terms.

[GJM]

70780

[msstate56]

I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to get a 407 CO for a while.

Brownells has the 407 8moa circle only right now.

[GJM]

I let a friend shoot my 2.0 Compact with a 508T after the USPSA match today. We were in a steel range, and I handed him the pistol with the circle reticle only selected, asked him to withhold judgement and shoot the smallest steel. He shot the bejesus out of it, and he had never shot the circle before. Repeated the same with a woman on our squad, and she had a similar experience.

[RJ]

I forgot about this thread until just now. I had been doing some ammo testing for carry on my G48 milled by PM for my 507k and was fiddling around with the circle and the dot. This was at a local indoor range.

I did two back to back runs of "the test" (10 rounds at 10 yards in 10 seconds), one with the circle only, and one with the dot only. Ammo was Federal HST 147 JHP.

On the first run, I used the Dot only, for a score of 97-4X. The second run was with the Circle, and netted a 90-0X.

Subjectively, I felt like I was "watching" the circle much more than the dot, in terms of shooting. Maybe this is "me" and my corrected, bifocal vision. I am still pretty new to dots but found the interesting. I'll keep going with the dot only for carry and competition for now.

71988
71989

[Caballoflaco]

RJ iirc you’ve been a “drive the dot shooter” with irons since you started shooting and I don’t think that you have seriously participated in any other aiming sports, your results aren’t that surprising to me.

[Caballoflaco]

Deleted double post

[GJM]

For me, the best way to use the circle is like the AUG’s “donut of death.” Look at the target and let your eye naturally center the impact spot in the circle.

[Bio]

I recently switched to circle only, and even for far away (far away for me, aka b8s at 25 yards), I find the target just settles into the circle. I'm sure it is a hugely personal thing, but it felt totally natural to just put the circle around the target instead of putting a dot on the target. Quantifiables backed up feeling, as well.

[RJ]

Just to add another data point, I did a back to back of 5 rounds each (hey, ammo's expensive) of S&B 115 at 10 yards through the G34+507c today. Using the circle I scored a 46-1X, with the dot, 48-2X.

I think "for me" one thing that's happening is the circle is attracting my inner OCD, as my lizard brains tries align the Black of the B-8 with the circle, which doesn't seem right. (Assuming I did the math right, a 32MOA circle at 10 yards is around 3.4", compared to a B-8 9 ring circle of 5.54").

I'll keep working on this as my dot experience (right now, virtually nil) increases this year. I can see the benefit of a carry gun with the circle being easier to pick up in a stressful moment. Since I'm not routinely in gunfights, the most stress I see is in a match. My next one is 6/20, so I plan to just shoot the dot in the G34 and see how it goes. It's interesting to me everyone seems to perceive this differently.

[GJM]

Just to add another data point, I did a back to back of 5 rounds each (hey, ammo's expensive) of S&B 115 at 10 yards through the G34+507c today. Using the circle I scored a 46-1X, with the dot, 48-2X.

I think "for me" one thing that's happening is the circle is attracting my inner OCD, as my lizard brains tries align the Black of the B-8 with the circle, which doesn't seem right. (Assuming I did the math right, a 32MOA circle at 10 yards is around 3.4", compared to a B-8 9 ring circle of 5.54").

I'll keep working on this as my dot experience (right now, virtually nil) increases this year. I can see the benefit of a carry gun with the circle being easier to pick up in a stressful moment. Since I'm not routinely in gunfights, the most stress I see is in a match. My next one is 6/20, so I plan to just shoot the dot in the G34 and see how it goes. It's interesting to me everyone seems to perceive this differently.

Think of it this way. The single dot is for shooting your best on a good day, where the circle is for doing best on your worst day. That is why I compete with a single dot and EDC a circle.

[RJ]

Think of it this way. The single dot is for shooting your best on a good day, where the circle is for doing best on your worst day. That is why I compete with a single dot and EDC a circle.

Gotcha. Totally get the static accuracy (precision?) is better with the dot. I can see how the doughnut could be better on a ‘bad’ day though. I’ll circle (*) back to this after my match.






* Sorry couldn’t resist. I’ll see myself out. :)

[CCT125US]

Think of it this way. The single dot is for shooting your best on a good day, where the circle is for doing best on your worst day. That is why I compete with a single dot and EDC a circle.

While I defer to your greater dot experience, I'm having an issue with this visually. I'm imagining this as a wide rear notch vs. a tight notch. The wide gets you speed, but not necessarily accuracy if you receive the go signal when it's just somewhere in the notch. Seems to be a large portion of "in the circle" that would equal a miss.

Perhaps more later as I formulate a better response.

[Caballoflaco]

Think of it this way. The single dot is for shooting your best on a good day, where the circle is for doing best on your worst day. That is why I compete with a single dot and EDC a circle.

What are your thoughts on the circle dot? Does the central dot negate the speed of just the circle for you /distract from a target focus.

I’m curious because I don’t have any time on circle/circle dot rds myself.

[GJM]

While I defer to your greater dot experience, I'm having an issue with this visually. I'm imagining this as a wide rear notch vs. a tight notch. The wide gets you speed, but not necessarily accuracy if you receive the go signal when it's just somewhere in the notch. Seems to be a large portion of "in the circle" that would equal a miss.

Perhaps more later as I formulate a better response.

Let your eye naturally center the target in the ring and it will be plenty accurate.


What are your thoughts on the circle dot? Does the central dot negate the speed of just the circle for you /distract from a target focus.

I’m curious because I don’t have any time on circle/circle dot rds myself.

I find the Holosun circle dot too busy, unlike an Eotech.

[RJ]

I forgot about this thread until just now. I had been doing some ammo testing for carry on my G48 milled by PM for my 507k and was fiddling around with the circle and the dot. This was at a local indoor range.

I did two back to back runs of "the test" (10 rounds at 10 yards in 10 seconds), one with the circle only, and one with the dot only. Ammo was Federal HST 147 JHP.

On the first run, I used the Dot only, for a score of 97-4X. The second run was with the Circle, and netted a 90-0X.

Subjectively, I felt like I was "watching" the circle much more than the dot, in terms of shooting. Maybe this is "me" and my corrected, bifocal vision. I am still pretty new to dots but found the interesting. I'll keep going with the dot only for carry and competition for now.



Another datapoint: 98-5X on The Test, 507k set to circle only, as for EDC. I felt like I was watching the target more this time. And focusing on trigger control, while squeezing the grip like I was holding onto my lunch money. Ammo was Blazer 124.

72478

[Oldherkpilot]

* Sorry couldn’t resist. I’ll see myself out. :)

Like hell. Get back here so you can be ejected properly. Of all the Pstupid things to say!

[Doc_Glock]

I went shooting steel with a bunch of enthusiastic but minimally experienced lads last evening. I had them all try the 509T with circle dot and dot only reticles.

The circle dot was unanimously preferred. I liked it better in a field application as well. It seems to make me think less about aiming and I seem less prone to over think the trigger and just squeeze it when I get an appropriate sight picture.

The circle dot to me is a little sloppier to aim and as such I keep a better target focus. With a dot I tend to focus on the dot.

[GJM]

I went shooting steel with a bunch of enthusiastic but minimally experienced lads last evening. I had them all try the 509T with circle dot and dot only reticles.

The circle dot was unanimously preferred. I liked it better in a field application as well. It seems to make me think less about aiming and I seem less prone to over think the trigger and just squeeze it when I get an appropriate sight picture.

The circle dot to me is a little sloppier to aim and as such I keep a better target focus. With a dot I tend to focus on the dot.

For me, the main benefits of a circle only are having an aiming reticle that is not subject to splatter or false dots in weird sun angles, and a larger aiming reference for shooting support hand or in weird positions where you don’t have a perfect index.

[luckyman]

For me, the main benefits of a circle only are having an aiming reticle that is not subject to splatter or false dots in weird sun angles, and a larger aiming reference for shooting support hand or in weird positions where you don’t have a perfect index.

GJM, what’s the “streak” like when shooting at speed? I’m supposing that is a non-issue? Is it as easy to follow as the streak of a simple dot?

Edited to add: er, “follow” isn’t exactly the right word but hopefully my question makes sense…

[JTMcC]

Question for those that like a "circle only":

what moa is your circle?

what ranges are you using them to?

what type of accuracy do you see at those ranges?

[littlejerry]

I'm just now dipping my toes into the pistol mounted MRDS game and bought a 507c.

In dryfire I definitely prefer the circle only. This is out to 15 yards, indoors, on both full size and 1/2 scale IPSC cardboard targets, although things are getting a little iffy on the 1/2 scale target at 15 yards.

For me the center dot really clutters the reticle and I have a hard time maintaining a target focus. This is indoors so I feel like there is more bloom vs outdoors in sunlight.

In reality I haven't shot the thing yet, so my opinion is worth 0. But I do have a bit of buyer remorse now and wish I had purchased a 407co instead

[GJM]

GJM, what’s the “streak” like when shooting at speed? I’m supposing that is a non-issue? Is it as easy to follow as the streak of a simple dot?

Edited to add: er, “follow” isn’t exactly the right word but hopefully my question makes sense…

The streak is like a single dot, just a lot bigger.

For pure technical shooting, I still prefer a single dot.

[Clusterfrack]

The streak is like a single dot, just a lot bigger.

For pure technical shooting, I still prefer a single dot.

Are any of the top USPSA CO shooters using a circle?

[GJM]

Are any of the top USPSA CO shooters using a circle?

Since the circle is mostly available on a Holosun, and Holosun optics are not commonly used by competitive shooters, the answer is almost certainly “no.” Now if the circle reticle was selectable on the SRO and Romeo 3 Max/XL, the question would be more on point.

[mrozowjj]

Since the circle is mostly available on a Holosun, and Holosun optics are not commonly used by competitive shooters, the answer is almost certainly “no.” Now if the circle reticle was selectable on the SRO and Romeo 3 Max/XL, the question would be more on point.

I think you should clarify competitive shooters at a high level. At my local club matches I see tons of holosuns but we're all D,C, and B class scrubs.

[tlong17]

GJM have you been able to find and use a 407CO yet? I just used one for the first time today. I really like it a lot. Seems to bridge the gap between circle and dot more with fewer trade offs. I don’t know the math and the brightness of the reticle could be affecting it but at 25 yards the 8 MOA circle seems to fit the 10 ring perfect on a B8.

[GJM]

GJM have you been able to find and use a 407CO yet? I just used one for the first time today. I really like it a lot. Seems to bridge the gap between circle and dot more with fewer trade offs. I don’t know the math and the brightness of the reticle could be affecting it but at 25 yards the 8 MOA circle seems to fit the 10 ring perfect on a B8.

I have one but haven’t installed it yet, but hope to soon.

[Exiledviking]

Shot an abbreviated Steel Challenge match yesterday with a Holosun 508T. On the Smoke & Hope stage I switched to the circle/dot reticle for speed and I do believe it helped a lot. On the next stage, Outer Limits, I switched to the dot only. Compared to the last time I shot this stage with an iron sight pistol, I dropped only 2 rounds in the four strings.
Gotta say I'm impressed with the circle/dot reticle and using a red dot on a pistol.

[RJ]

Question for those that like a "circle only":

what moa is your circle?

what ranges are you using them to?

what type of accuracy do you see at those ranges?

32 MOA (Holosun 507c on a G19 MOS).

5, 7, 10 and 25 yards.

My 2021 metrics are currently:

TT: 95-1X (7/5/21) (10 rounds in 10 seconds at 10 yards on an NRA B-8)
25: 88-1x (8/1/21) (25 yards two handed unsupported, untimed)
FYL L1@5: 9/10 (8/1/21) (“Find Your Level” Target, Level 1, 5 yards, untimed. Pass fail, 10/10 is a pass.

[JTMcC]

32 MOA (Holosun 507c on a G19 MOS).

5, 7, 10 and 25 yards.

My 2021 metrics are currently:

TT: 95-1X (7/5/21) (10 rounds in 10 seconds at 10 yards on an NRA B-8)
25: 88-1x (8/1/21) (25 yards two handed unsupported, untimed)
FYL L1@5: 9/10 (8/1/21) (“Find Your Level” Target, Level 1, 5 yards, untimed. Pass fail, 10/10 is a pass.

Very helpful, thank you.

[GJM]

I continue to prefer the Holosun circle only for EDC. This morning, I was messing around with a G45/508T in circle only and decided to shoot a one inch square, support hand only at 7 yards. That can be a bugger, as one hand makes it harder to hold the dot steady, combined with it being a small target. Here is the result.

75856

[1911Nut]

I continue to prefer the Holosun circle only for EDC. This morning, I was messing around with a G45/508T in circle only and decided to shoot a one inch square, support hand only at 7 yards. That can be a bugger, as one hand makes it harder to hold the dot steady, combined with it being a small target. Here is the result.

75856

Keep practicing, George. You will eventually get the hang of it!

[BigT]

M48 has a 507K on it which I have set to circle only. Decided to shoot a match with it on the weekend to see how I felt about my capabilities with the gun. Had to shoot open with it as IPSC rules don't allow forward of the hip carry in any other division and the only holsters for it are AIWB ones. Decided to shoot concealed as well. The accuracy of the circle only was excellent on 35m Poppers and paper at all distances, speed of the set up is as good as i am capable of too.


FWIW I managed 66% of the countries top open shooter, which I will take with a subcompact minor scoring concealed carry gun versus a full on race Gun.

[Archer1440]

I continue to prefer the Holosun circle only for EDC. This morning, I was messing around with a G45/508T in circle only and decided to shoot a one inch square, support hand only at 7 yards. That can be a bugger, as one hand makes it harder to hold the dot steady, combined with it being a small target. Here is the result.

75856

Bottom line/TLDR: pick a spot, hard focus on it and execute the shot.

Boring and possibly off-base opinions follow:

It may be that there is room in this discussion to observe a few principles from a different sport with a few similar requirements.

In Olympic archery, open rings are used fairly commonly, particularly with shooters who find their shot execution timing is impaired by the struggle to hold a pin steady while holding a 50# string. The movement of a pin is much more apparent and can really cause serious execution issues in many shooters. The best pin shooters generally tend to shift focus during the draw, and hard focus on the target at the moment of execution. (Understand there are several other factors at play here but I’m keeping it simple for the purposes of pistol discussion).

It’s noteworthy that you have a total of 20 seconds to execute the shot with a bow at the Olympic Games, on a timer. So you don’t have time to “fix it” if you screw up during the execution. Mentally, it’s a lot like requiring a 2 second par ocular zone hit on a Gunsite option target, from the holster at 15 yards, every single time, 72 times in a row.

Open ring shooting with an Olympic bow requires a hard target focus while allowing the ring to blur out, and letting the eye’s natural ability to concentrically align circles in circles (targets are concentric rings) while shifting the mental focus to the execution of the shot (generally, moving the draw arm elbow). The result is much faster and smoother shot execution for most shooters, presuming no other mental issues.

(Note that in Olympic archery the target is 70 M away, but the same principles work for field archery which is shot between 12 and 60M. So the distance isn’t an issue here.)

There are a few differences and a few similarities between a mechanical ring on a bow (depending on shooter stature, typically located ~1-1.3 meters from the eye), and a ring on a reflex optic at any distance from the eye:

1. The reflex sight ring on the pistol will always be in focus. The mechanical ring on the bow will always be blurry if you are target focused (as you should be through the entire shot sequence).

2. The infinite focus of the reflex ring actually detracts from the principle of a hard target focus if you don’t discipline yourself to insist on picking a spot. It makes it difficult to prevent an attention shift from the ring to the target and back. Rings work best when, for want of a better term, you consciously ignore them.. You need to “burn a hole” with your focus on where you want the hit. This can take a bit of time.

Again, the most important principle of properly using a ring sight is to hard focus on the desired point of impact.

I personally feel that a target focus and properly timed “streak” with a dot works better for most high-speed pistol shooters, especially in transitions, and (not to put words in his keyboard, but apparently like GJM), I feel the main benefit of an RDS ring is more oriented to avoiding the foibles of dot sights with low sun angles.

I personally think that the process of getting the ring reticle of a reflex sight aligned to the desired impact point with a pistol will probably always take more time than “shooting the streak”. For USPSA and other “speed shooting” applications, correct use of a ring probably is not the answer.

But for precision (relatively slower, say 0.45 splits) shooting at small targets, with a hard target focus, I think the ring could be potentially much better for most people shooting offhand - just as it can be with a bow- IF there is a defined impact focal point visible in the target (x-ring, bullet hole, paster, etc.), or you have excellent mental discipline and can vividly imagine- “burn a hole”- at the impact point you desire, every time.

[1911Nut]

Purpose: EDC

Optic Options: Holosun 507C or Holosun 508T

Pistol: CZ P10S and/or P10C

Mount: Direct with BUIS

Which do you choose, and why?

Thanks.

[David S.]

Which do you choose, and why?

Right now my preference is trending towards circle only.

The circle at 25 yards is a bit bigger than the 8-ring on a B-8, IIRC. I encircle the ring with my reticle and send it. On a 100 pt aggregate, my scores between dot only and circle only are very similar. I haven't spent enough time shooting bulls beyond 25 to have data. I shoot about 75% hits on 8" plates at 50 with either.

I'm better about looking through the circle reticle than the dot and I tend to do less over confirmation with the circle.

I haven't messed with circle dot.

[Noah]

I have not tried a circle only, but for me and my astigmatism, the circle dot is very busy and very easily blooms to the point of obscuring an entire 32 MOA circle instead of a ring. I leave my dots on one or two clicks from max brightness so they always work with a WML or full sunlight. I find the auto setting to be too dim for my preference in most circumstances. With a dot only, I can deal with heavy bloom with my dot too bright for a dark area, but with the circle dot, it's too much.


It's possible the circle only would not have this issue, but my 509T is only dot or circle dot.

[Ndbbm]

It's possible the circle only would not have this issue, but my 509T is only dot or circle dot.

May want to check. I’ve got a 507 and it will cycle through dot only, dot and circle, and circle only. I looked at the holosun website and it says a 509 should be able to do the same thing.

Jason

[CakeEater]

May want to check. I’ve got a 507 and it will cycle through dot only, dot and circle, and circle only. I looked at the holosun website and it says a 509 should be able to do the same thing.

Jason

It’s probably for the X2. I’ve got a first Gen and the manual has the two options but not the circle only.

[Ndbbm]

Oops my bad, thanks for the info.

Jason

[GJM]

After shooting my Open gun today, I pulled out a newish Glock 47 with a 509T. Initially I was shooting a difficult array with just the dot, but then decided to try just the circle. Interestingly, I was 5-10 percent faster with just the circle and the two paper targets were skunks. I repeated enough to know at least today, circle only was faster with equivalent accuracy.

I shot one group at 25 yards, circle only, and got this. It was less stressful shooting the group with the circle compared to trying to make a dot settle.

104024

[1Rangemaster]

After shooting my Open gun today, I pulled out a newish Glock 47 with a 509T. Initially I was shooting a difficult array with just the dot, but then decided to try just the circle. Interestingly, I was 5-10 percent faster with just the circle and the two paper targets were skunks. I repeated enough to know at least today, circle only was faster with equivalent accuracy.

I shot one group at 25 yards, circle only, and got this. It was less stressful shooting the group with the circle compared to trying to make a dot settle.

104024

That is truly outstanding, sir! Interesting that the circle seemed less stressful.
I was playing with a 509T X2 in green a little while back, and recall making hits at 50 yards on a B/C silhouette with just the (green) circle-nothing like that though.
Part of this is the shooter too, and I would say you’ve got grip and trigger down!

[1911Nut]

My experience with shooting the circle only vs. the dot only or the circle/dot mirrors those of GJM. Not saying that I can even approach his skill level, but the circle only is consistently faster for me, particularly at distances of 20+ yards.

I also found his comments about shooting the circle when trying for precise shots (groups) seemed "less stressful". I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but in my personal experience I found myself "over-aiming" and getting more tense when trying to hold for a precise shot with the dot as compared to the circle only. Which, I suppose, translates into becoming more tense (stressed), and certainly in taking more time to break the shot.

[littlejerry]

I recently tried the circle only in steel challenge and liked it. Felt it was much easier to maintain target focus. I like being able to turn the brightness down but still easily see the reticle.

Circle dot is not usable for me. Too much bloom, can't maintain target focus.

The dot only is completely workable and easier for certain targets(like, IMO, a B8), but for action sports I kinda prefer the circle.

[GJM]

After zeroing a few carbines this afternoon, I did some group shooting with a G47 circle only and with a dot at 50 yards. Didn't notice any difference between the two reticles. Did notice one flyer per group at 50, which I will address in another thread. Went 4/5 on a two inch dot at 20 yards, circle only.

[Archer1440]

Circle only has been used for Olympic archery for over 50 years for competitors who find themselves suffering from execution problems due to over aiming, and the scores vs a pin are comparable. It works because a round open aperture on a round target works well, as the eye centers circles in circles quite accurately. We just look at the center of the target and it’s automatic.

In the wind, where we have to aim off, the round aperture still works so long as we pick a spot on the target for the offset and remain focused on it through the entire shot execution.

Certainly the same concept applies to maintaining better target focused shooting with a pistol optic, but the key to accuracy with it is to always pick a spot on the target. Since we engage irregular shaped targets with pistols, this “pick a spot” technique is absolutely essential to good accuracy, and applies to any target focused shooting, with a dot or with a circle.

[GJM]

I shot several five shot two and an half inch groups at 20 yards today with the G47 and a 509T in circle only mode. My "target" was a one inch wide by two inch piece of black tape.

[Jamie]

Thanks to the shared info here on P-F I had ATEi mill my G17 slide and put an RMR on it back in 2018. I was hooked!

Last year I had them mill my G19 and put a Holosun 509T on it. It's remarkable. I shoot it at least once a week, generally twice and do 5-10 minutes ofdry fire daily...but I've only ever used the single dot setting.

I reread this thread and updates and thought "this can't be true". But you guys haven't steered me wrong yet and I have no reason to doubt the collective wisdom here.
So I cycled through to Circle only on my 509 and did some dry fire after work this past week.
I made it to the indoor range yesterday and what do you know? You guys are 100% right!

I'm not allowed to work from my holster at the indoor range so all of my work was from low ready (as is normal for me there). I actually shot better using target focus Circle only from 7 to 25 yards. And I actually had no difficulty keeping all of my shots in the black of a B8, actually smaller grouping than usual using circle only. It seemed easier to place the "circle over the circle" vs steadying the dot.

I think you guys covered it but please help me out on this. I've found that with my dot-only I would occasionally catch a pre-ignition push/dip, not often, once every couple of mags. but when I was "trying really hard" to hit the one inch square at 7-10 yards, sometimes even at 5 yards.
I think I was trying to over-stabilize the dot. Using the circle only seems to have freed up some part of my brain that was messing with me LOL.
I hope what I typed makes sense and would appreciate any suggestions to deal with the pre-ignition dip issues. Christ, it's only a 9mm...

I hopefully will make it to the outdoor range next week and run the circle only on steel and distance.

Thanks in advance for the shared knowledge.

[Nephrology]

I hope what I typed makes sense and would appreciate any suggestions to deal with the pre-ignition dip issues. Christ, it's only a 9mm...


It is still a small explosion going off less than 5 feet from your face. A little flinch is entirely normal. I don't think you can ever get away from having to work on it.

[Clusterfrack]

I think you guys covered it but please help me out on this. I've found that with my dot-only I would occasionally catch a pre-ignition push/dip, not often, once every couple of mags. but when I was "trying really hard" to hit the one inch square at 7-10 yards, sometimes even at 5 yards.
I think I was trying to over-stabilize the dot. Using the circle only seems to have freed up some part of my brain that was messing with me LOL.
I hope what I typed makes sense and would appreciate any suggestions to deal with the pre-ignition dip issues. Christ, it's only a 9mm...
...
Thanks in advance for the shared knowledge.


It is still a small explosion going off less than 5 feet from your face. A little flinch is entirely normal. I don't think you can ever get away from having to work on it.

In newer shooters, a "flinch" response is common. Some don't have it but a lot do.

But in more experienced shooters, it's usually not a flinch in anticipation of an explosion. A pre-ignition push is usually either 1) a timing error in returning the gun after it fires, or 2) incorrect recoil management. Let's talk about (2) first because it's easiest to solve. The gun will lift in recoil after it fires, and we need to use our muscles to bring it back down to fire another shot. That needs to happen AFTER the gun fires, not during or before. A good drill to work on that (if that's the problem) is Hwansik Kim's "Measurement Drill". At close range (3-5yds) fire a shot, and let the gun stay up where it lifts. Then fire a second shot aimed up there. You have measured how much your gun lifts, and also illustrated that return happens afterward.

Now, let's talk about (1) timing errors. This happens when the shooter is trying to shoot fairly fast splits, and mistimes the return. There really isn't a way to fix this other than practice. Relaxation, and focusing on solid wrist lock have worked wonders for me.

[Archer1440]

Using the circle only seems to have freed up some part of my brain that was messing with me LOL.


That was exactly the point I was making.

[Jamie]

That was exactly the point I was making.

Definitely! I wish I had tried this when I first put the 509 on my Glock.


Thank you Nephrology and Clusterfrack.

I've not heard of the Hwansik Kim's "Measurement Drill" before. I'll give it a try my next range trip.

The per-ignition dip is infrequent but I have noticed it from time to time over the past year.
As mentioned previously I've been running RDS since 2018, and I shoot at least weekly (meaning focused skills and focused drills except when shooting steel...that's just plain fun!). And 50 or so rounds of revolver each week as well. Thankfully I handload.

I can track my dot with no issues, and find if I'll just go ahead and break the shot when I see the red I get my hits easy enough, target focus of course.
I tend to reset the trigger during recoil, but I've done that for 25 years or so and it's ingrained. I don't snatch the trigger when coming out of recoil (to the best of my knowledge anyway).

That "dip" has only occurred when trying to consistently hit the 1" square in the 6" circle P-F target I primarily use at 7-10 yards. Generally on my first shot. Like I mentioned, it's infrequent, but puzzled me when I noticed it.

I will definitely pay particular attention to my grip and will give the Hwansik Kim's "Measurement Drill" a try.

Thanks again for the input and suggestions.

[stomridertx]

I've experimented with the circle only on my 509tx2 equipped Glock, and I'll admit that it is my favorite of the 3 reticle choices on that optic. What gives me pause in leaving it in that mode is the way my astigmatism works. With uncorrected vision I see a double circle. With my toric contacts or glasses, it's a perfect circle and works very well. Practically speaking, I never shoot without vision correction as I have a prescription insert for my Oakley M Frame eyepro and most always wear contacts to the range, and it's not my CCW gun. It still gives me pause to have that corrected vision requirement for the reticle to work like it should. With a dot, it may be a hot mess but it's still a single aiming point. Every day I think about selling that optic and getting another 6 MOA EPS, but I keep it around because I like everything else about it.