1911 series 70 vs 80 question

[Rmiked]

I was watching a U-tube video about a Colt 1911 vs a Rock Island, both in 45 ACP. The guy doing the video is very experienced. He mentioned the possibility of an unintentional discharge IF you used the slide release to charge the pistol, after an empty mag lock-back. His reasoning was firing pin inertia. His Colt was a series 80 and he demonstrated the firing pin would not move forward without the trigger being depressed. The Rock Island was a series 70. Since the firing pin can move forward if there is no block, I get it that it may be possible. But if that could happen it seems to me it could happen every time the pistol reloads when the slide slams forward and the hammer is locked back on the sear. I believe I read where the some Colts have titanium firing pins which are lighter than steel to make them less likely to fire due to inertia if the pistol is dropped. So my question is this: Is it possible for a non-series 80 1911 to fire if charging using the slide release? And does anyone know if most firing pins are made of steel or are lighter materials used to minimize drop firing events?

[TheNewbie]

Can you link the video?

[Rmiked]

https://youtu.be/809ttTh9XUM

Around 6 mins 30 seconds. He actually is charging by manually pulling slide back and then releasing it.

[Rmiked]

I am considering a Dan Wesson which I know is series 70. Here is a quote from Keith at DW:

Keith DW said:
There is nothing wrong with using the Titanium fining pin if it will make you feel better. It has no drawbacks but also has not real benefit. We use a 9mm firing pin and Wolff extra power spring in all of our guns. this is the same setup that we passed the Calif. drop test with in our PM7 and Cbob. To each his own but I would not waste the money. Buy ammo, a holster, mags or grips instead. :)

[Jim Watson]

I have not before heard of anybody claiming a fear of the gun firing off the slide stop.
Many sources say the standard 1911 will fire if dropped. Mine didn't.

There are a lot of titanium firing pins in lieu of mechanical firing pin obstructions.
There have been some number of titanium firing pins replaced with steel to stop misfires, too.
So if you consider a light firing pin safer, test it to be sure it is reliable.

P.S. "Series 70" did not always mean "lacking a firing pin obstruction."

[willie]

I say there is no cause for concern. The firing pin is a certain length and the firing pin spring is a certain pound weight for a reason. I have owned and shot dozens of the pre 1980 1911s and have never observed even a dimple made on a primer.

But I have seen Star and ILama 1911 style pistols with unfitted firing pins that protruded from the slide.

[FrankB]

Well, Paul is 50% right. Not all “New Colts” have a firing pin block. I’ve owned 4 brand new Colts in the last few years: a Wiley Clapp Lightweight Commander with no firing pin block, the same with a Colt Government Competition Model in 9mm and .45 acp. My standard Colt Lightweight Commander had a Series 80 firing pin block, but I removed it. Deleting it deletes 5 moving parts, but does replace one part with a non-moving spacer. I agree 100% with Paul about taking care where a firearm is pointed while chambering a round, but that goes for ANY firearm. I’d crap my pants if someone pointed a firearm at me, and would hit the dirt if they were manipulating the slide or charging handle. My Ruger 1911’s have titanium firing pins.

[SW CQB 45]

I recall well before the internet that Bill Wilson mentioned that the firing pin could be shortened a few thousands to minimize drop firings.

I am of the opinion that when the slide catches the top round from the mag and feeds into the chamber, its like a cushioning effect as opposed to dropping the slide on a empty chamber.

my first encounter with a 1911 in the 80s was a Series 70 Colt with a heavy steel firing pin. I put thousands of .45 ball and reloads with never an issue.

My current carry is a Springer MCOP Gen 1 and it has a titanium firing pin. I recently parked a MCOP Gen 2 with a little over 15k through the tube and countless dry drills. No issues.

[Robinson]

Colt's current policy is to include a firing pin safety (Series 80) on guns intended for defensive use, and Series 70 for traditional models, plus those for target and sporting use.

I have never heard of a Series 70 Colt discharging when the slide goes forward to feed the next round. And I have either racked the slide or used the slide release thousands of times on Series 70 guns with no issue. Anyway, charging the pistol by sling-shotting the slide would cause just as much inertial energy as using the slide release.

Okay I just watched a few seconds of the video. You can disregard the warning about S70 guns it contains.

[ViniVidivici]

No, anyone claiming this is an idiot. Seriously, the 1911 has had no FP block for most of its existence, and this has never been an issue.

Being dropped, on the muzzle, from a height, yes, but never from the slide being released.

Just never been a thing.

[Evil_Ed]

No, as mentioned that's just straight up not a problem in 1911 platform.

If it were a problem, it would have happened numerous times between the years of 1911 and 1985 when the 1911 was the military's issued sidearm, not to mention all of the various one-offs, reserve units, etc that still issued it up until the mid or even late 2000s. I've never even heard of it happening. I think you could remove the firing pin spring entirely and still not have this issue.

Not only that but just using that guy's reasoning, it would simply go full auto at random times when shooting...as the slide is rapidly closing every time you shoot.

I vastly prefer an S80 gun for few reasons over the original USGI setup, but that particular worry is unfounded.

[That Guy]

And does anyone know if most firing pins are made of steel or are lighter materials used to minimize drop firing events?

Thinking globally, there are very many 1911's in existence and most of them are more the "built to a price point" variety than the high end customs one tends to see discussed on P-F. So I think it is an easy claim to make that the vast majority of 1911's have steel firing pins in them.

[Evil_Ed]

I have not before heard of anybody claiming a fear of the gun firing off the slide stop.
Many sources say the standard 1911 will fire if dropped. Mine didn't.

There are a lot of titanium firing pins in lieu of mechanical firing pin obstructions.
There have been some number of titanium firing pins replaced with steel to stop misfires, too.
So if you consider a light firing pin safer, test it to be sure it is reliable.

P.S. "Series 70" did not always mean "lacking a firing pin obstruction."

Mine didn't either, but watching that gaping maw of a muzzle sweep across my face as it made contact with the concrete...yeah, that was enough to make me wonder.

Dropping the mag and clearing the gun after showed a dimple on the primer after. Not a deep one, but enough to show that the firing pin did in fact contact it. That was enough to make me a convert to a firing pin safety. This was on a Colt S70 reissue (so titanium firing pin) with a fresh firing pin spring btw (less than 1000 rounds on it)..

[03RN]

Mine didn't either, but watching that gaping maw of a muzzle sweep across my face as it made contact with the concrete...yeah, that was enough to make me wonder.

Dropping the mag and clearing the gun after showed a dimple on the primer after. Not a deep one, but enough to show that the firing pin did in fact contact it. That was enough to make me a convert to a firing pin safety. This was on a Colt S70 reissue (so titanium firing pin) with a fresh firing pin spring btw (less than 1000 rounds on it)..

1911s can fire if dropped on the muzzle straight down.

As for the dimpled primers... You ever check the primer on a chambered 556 AR-15? It gets dimpled every single time.

[Elwin]

This might be a contender for most nonsensical thing he’s ever said.

If it’s possible for this to happen, what is the difference between using the slide stop and slingshotting the slide that makes the latter so much safer? Pulling the slide back and releasing it actually gives it slightly more rearward travel and spring compression to work with, so if anything it’s potentially moving forward with more, not less, energy. Unless you ease it forward instead of letting go of it immediately, which can cause its own problems.

And then of course there’s the already mentioned fact that if true, this would result in 1911s effectively going full auto.

Does anyone know if he has the same opinion regarding ARs?

[farscott]

Mine didn't either, but watching that gaping maw of a muzzle sweep across my face as it made contact with the concrete...yeah, that was enough to make me wonder.

Dropping the mag and clearing the gun after showed a dimple on the primer after. Not a deep one, but enough to show that the firing pin did in fact contact it. That was enough to make me a convert to a firing pin safety. This was on a Colt S70 reissue (so titanium firing pin) with a fresh firing pin spring btw (less than 1000 rounds on it)..

I forgot that Colt switched to titanium firing pins in the old "Series '70 Reproduction" guns back in 2004. My samples predate that change, which was done to pass drop tests in California. I use quotes for that model as it is neither a Series '70 pistol or a reproduction of any Colt 1911.

The only 1911 I have with a titanium firing pin is a SA Mil-Spec customized by John Harrison. The pin was installed by SA and worked with no issues, so it stayed in the pistol where it has seen several thousand rounds with no issues. I used to look for damage or signs of light strikes, but I only check now during the annual detail strip and clean.

As for the OP's question, it has not proven to be an issue from 1911 until now as the vast majority of 1911-pattern pistols lack a firing pin safety. If it could happen, we would see it in competition, and we do not. I have seen other oddities such as an ejected round striking the ejector and firing during, "Unload and show clear". That suggests extended ejectors can be an issue. My favorite happened to me when I loaded a magazine at slide lock, the magazine catch failed, and the freshly seated magazine hit the ground. My response, as I had no clue what happened, was to load another magazine with the same results. My shooting buddy said the look on my face was classic.

[Caballoflaco]

That video is evidence that he lacks the fundamental understanding of how a 1911 works.

Maybe he is confused with old bullseye guns that would hammer follow if you didn’t pull the trigger to engage the disconnector while releasing the slide because they had unsafe trigger jobs.

This, boys and girls, is how fudd-lore is born.

[Jim Watson]

Anecdote Alert:

Back a few decades, the local FFL carried a Commander Condition 2. I did, too, for a while until I realized he was a southpaw and going C2 because he had learned before ambidextrous safeties were common.

I once saw him unload his Silvertip carry ammo to load the cheap stuff for practice. The top round had been in and out of the gun so many times that its aluminum jacket looked like it had been chewed on and the primer had a prominent dent, either from repeated chambering or maybe a sudden lowering of the hammer. I gave him a spare firing pin spring that had come with a recoil spring. Must have worked, he carried that gun the rest of his life with no AD.

[Rmiked]

Mine didn't either, but watching that gaping maw of a muzzle sweep across my face as it made contact with the concrete...yeah, that was enough to make me wonder.

Dropping the mag and clearing the gun after showed a dimple on the primer after. Not a deep one, but enough to show that the firing pin did in fact contact it. That was enough to make me a convert to a firing pin safety. This was on a Colt S70 reissue (so titanium firing pin) with a fresh firing pin spring btw (less than 1000 rounds on it)..

Evil Ed, I appreciate your example of dropping your pistol. Especially the dimpled primer! Yikes!

I don’t have a 1911 but want one and am evaluating various manufacturers, especially DW. When I heard Paul Harrell mention the concern, it got my attention. He actually pulled the slide back (slingshot?) vs using the slide release. As mentioned here, the slide release would impart less energy into slide since recoil spring compressed less. Paul is a VERY experienced and exceptional shooter and I like his reviewers and commentary. My impression was he was emphasizing gun safety pointing the pistol in safe direction and wanting to point out that some pistols have features intended to minimize unwanted discharge. My immediate reaction was “why wouldn’t it go into full auto”?

Anyway, I knew I would get tons of experience from PF. One thing I have never been clear on: why isn’t dropping the pistol on the hammer worse than the muzzle? I get it that the inertia muzzle down accelerates the firing pin toward the primer. And hammer down accelerates the firing pin the safe direction (Away from primer). However, if the hammer makes contact with the ground it has all the pistol weight (inertia)
directly transferring to the firing pin which then travels toward the primer? With no barrier between the hammer and firing pin like a trigger activated block, it’s a straight shot to the primer? Seems there is only the half-cock sear notch to prevent firing. Is that the explanation OR is the beaver tail enough of a barrier to prevent firing?

[TGS]

The guy doing the video is very experienced.

So, here's the first issue.

I don't know where this idea came about that Paul Harrell is any sort of authority on stuff.

He's just some fuckin' random youtuber that people latched onto for whatever reason.


One thing I have never been clear on: why isn’t dropping the pistol on the hammer worse than the muzzle? I get it that the inertia muzzle down accelerates the firing pin toward the primer. And hammer down accelerates the firing pin the safe direction (Away from primer). However, if the hammer makes contact with the ground it has all the pistol weight (inertia)
directly transferring to the firing pin which then travels toward the primer? With no barrier between the hammer and firing pin like a trigger activated block, it’s a straight shot to the primer? Seems there is only the half-cock sear notch to prevent firing. Is that the explanation OR is the beaver tail enough of a barrier to prevent firing?

The weapon should be cocked when being carried; the hammer doesn't make contact with the firing pin.

[Rmiked]

Well I never said he was an authority on 1911 design or testing. The guy can shoot. And his discussion about stuff is normally dead on. This is the first thing he ha said that raised my eyebrows. From what I read he spent 20 years in the military and was a Marine Combat Marksmanship instructor. He was charged with manslaughter in a case involving a campground attack. The charges were dropped as evidence showed he acted in self defense and was also protecting his wife. We could all hope to have an outcome like this If we needed to defend ourselves. He seems very humble but some have asked about his qualifications and so he (rarely) discussed his experience qualifications. And when he has discussed it , he always had a humble attitude. He has won shooting competitions at many levels in US and Europe. He seems to really like the Beretta 92 platform. Paul would likely be underestimated IF someone meant him or his family harm.

https://www.eastoregonian.com/news/local/grand-jury-dismisses-charges-in-case-of-weston-mans-death/article_5d8e62b7-4cfe-5456-8ee4-3965da1218e4.html

[Jim Watson]

However, if the hammer makes contact with the ground it has all the pistol weight (inertia)
directly transferring to the firing pin which then travels toward the primer? oWith no barrier between the hammer and firing pin like a trigger activated block, it’s a straight shot to the primer? Seems there is only the half-cock sear notch to prevent firing. Is that the explanation OR is the beaver tail enough of a barrier to prevent firing?

One does not carry the 1911 type with the hammer on half cock. Even Condition 2 lets the hammer down all the way against the firing pin and firing pin stop. But the firing pin is the inertia or "flying" type; even with the hammer down on the head, the point does not protrude from the breechface*. Is there enough slack in the firing pin stop fit to the slide to cause a hard enough hit on the hammer to make the firing pin "fly?" Not at the maximum I was willing to hit my own gun's hammer. And yes, the grip safety will take a lot of the impact of at least some drops.

*I think already mentioned, but just in case, just because it LOOKS like a 1911 does not mean it WORKS like a 1911. A classmate's Father shot himself in the foot due to thinking a Star had an inertial firing pin.
Also, some USPSA competitors use longer than standard firing pins for more reliable ignition with rifle primers in their overloaded 9mm and .38 race guns. I don't think they are full length but they are close to the length of the tunnel. Caution is called for.

[Rmiked]

So, here's the first issue.

I don't know where this idea came about that Paul Harrell is any sort of authority on stuff.

He's just some fuckin' random youtuber that people latched onto for whatever reason.



The weapon should be cocked when being carried; the hammer doesn't make contact with the firing pin.

I have never owned a 1911 but have shot them. My 1st Cousin dropped his series 70 1911 (45 ACP) in his garage on concrete floor after coming home from church. The pistol discharge vertically going thru his hand and hitting the ceiling. It passed near his head. Following surgery his hand works but has severely limited dexterity. He has countless hours of shooting and training with as a volunteer with State Law Enforcement. Anyway, I didn’t inspect the pistol but can only infer the blow to the hammer structurally failed the sear. Thereby making the hammer primary and half-cock notch irrelevant. Since the pistol fired, the half-cock notch also was unable to prevent the hammer from contacting the firing pin. And as I previously discussed, the inertia from the firing pin itself would be moving away from the primer toward the hammer.

My question about all the drop testing on the muzzle is underpinned by this real world example. It seems an underlying assumption has been made ignoring the possibility of sear failure when only testing with muzzle drops. Without the sear engagement on a cocked 1911 it seems there are 3 reasons it could fire: 1.dropping on the muzzle with inertial firing which is mitigated by light firing pins, heavy firing pin springs and shorter firing pins. 2. The sear pin fails or comes out which is very unlikely and can be inspected easily when cleaning. 3. You drop it on the hammer and structurally fail the sear. If the sear breaks there is nothing left to stop the hammer.

Are 1911 drop tests performed dropping on the hammer to prove the sear will not fail due to this blow? I honestly don’t know. It seems the things I have read focus on the muzzle drop only??

With my Beretta 92, there is the firing pin block for this hammer blow example to prevent firing. And if you carried a 92 with decocker down (vs momentary spring) the plunger is not aligned with the firing pin and therefore can’t contact the firing pin no matter how hard you hit the hammer. I use my Beretta in decocker up mode relying on double action pull for safety along with firing pin block.

[SiriusBlunder]

Well I never said he was an authority on 1911 design or testing. The guy can shoot. And his discussion about stuff is normally dead on. This is the first thing he ha said that raised my eyebrows. From what I read he spent 20 years in the military and was a Marine Combat Marksmanship instructor. He was charged with manslaughter in a case involving a campground attack. The charges were dropped as evidence showed he acted in self defense and was also protecting his wife. We could all hope to have an outcome like this If we needed to defend ourselves. He seems very humble but some have asked about his qualifications and so he (rarely) discussed his experience qualifications. And when he has discussed it , he always had a humble attitude. He has won shooting competitions at many levels in US and Europe. He seems to really like the Beretta 92 platform. Paul would likely be underestimated IF someone meant him or his family harm.

https://www.eastoregonian.com/news/local/grand-jury-dismisses-charges-in-case-of-weston-mans-death/article_5d8e62b7-4cfe-5456-8ee4-3965da1218e4.html

I'm sure there are others threads, but this is the latest one I remember discussing Paul Harrell:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41586-Paul-Harrell-s-Rebuttal

HCM's post (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41586-Paul-Harrell-s-Rebuttal&p=1021655&viewfull=1#post1021655) is a good summary of the consensus as I saw it:


I’ve only heard of Paul Harrell because of people here on PF posting his technically awful ballistics testing videos.

Caleb is a douchebag and a brat but he is technically proficient and his technical criticisms of Harrell are valid regardless of how they are couched.

The description of Harrell as someone stuck in 1990 in terms of technical and tactical proficiency is accurate. Age is no excuse. There are several older instructors who have stayed current and/or continued to advance the state of the art including the late Pat Rogers, Dave Spaulding, Tom Givens etc.

Hickock 45 is affable and unlike most YouTube personalities is a proficient shooter but there is no substance to his videos.

If you are watching YouTube gun videos for anything other than entertainment I would suggest reading more (a lot more) here at PF.

If you are for real, you are measuring performance via scored targets for accuracy and shot timers for time. I would suggest you also read Pistol Training.com, the blog of this forum’s founder ToddG, because as Todd said “feelings lie.”

[JSGlock34]

And yes, the grip safety will take a lot of the impact of at least some drops.

I've never really considered this, but looking at the extended beavertail on my Wilson Combat 1911, I'm not sure it is even possible for the hammer to be the first point of contact in a drop on this pistol, at least on a flat surface.

70674

[Rmiked]

I've never really considered this, but looking at the extended beavertail on my Wilson Combat 1911, I'm not sure it is even possible for the hammer to be the first point of contact in a drop on this pistol, at least on a flat surface.

70674

That is a good point and I wondered about that in above post. In the case of my cousin getting shot thru his hand dropping his 1911, the geometry did not prevent firing. In my evaluation of the 1911 safety features, it seems the sear is needed for both the grip safety and thumb safety to work. The sear represents a “common mode failure”. A thumb safety that directly blocked the hammer movement would eliminate this common dependency on the sear. Of course the series 80 gets around by blocking the firing pin movement independent of the sear. A series 70 could retain the superior trigger with a direct blocking mechanism. Given the 1911 is a proven design there must not be a big need for another design. As long as the owner knows how the pistol works (in detail) they can manage the weapon accordingly. I have never fired a more accurate and repeatable pistol than a well setup 1911. I shoot it noticeably better than my 92A1, which I love. I think it’s the slim profile and awesome trigger. As with any loaded pistol, dropping it on a hard surface is not good. Other than that, just never point it at something you care about. An extended beaver tail seems to shroud the hammer well.👍

[TheNewbie]

I actually have similar concerns about “non series 80” 1911s. A 1911 expert I am not, and people have used non FP safety guns for years with no issues. Just my own concern.


If only the River 1911 was a “series 80”.

[Evil_Ed]

1911s can fire if dropped on the muzzle straight down.

As for the dimpled primers... You ever check the primer on a chambered 556 AR-15? It gets dimpled every single time.

That wasn't the first contact it made, but muzzle sweeping over me was how it ended when it finally came to rest :) It wasn't an experience I want to repeat, but accidents happen either way...the S80 system is the least intrusive and least problematic firing pin safety system in a 1911 as compared to how Kimber and others have implemented theirs, and Colt's pretty much got all the bugs in it ironed out now...it's inexpensive insurance for me.

Edited to add - FWIW there was a thread on ar15.com several years ago (10 or more maybe?) from someone who purchased an early Nighthawk, and dropped it in a stone/tile bathroom...and it went off. Photos of the slide jammed half-way back with the thumb safety still engaged (and bent out a bit as the slide was underneath it), bullet hole in the wall, the whole thing. I don't know if it was an issue with the firing pin spring being too light for the firing pin, if it was a high primer or a super soft primer in a reload, or what..

[Rex G]

I have never owned a 1911 but have shot them. My 1st Cousin dropped his series 70 1911 (45 ACP) in his garage on concrete floor after coming home from church. The pistol discharge vertically going thru his hand and hitting the ceiling. It passed near his head. Following surgery his hand works but has severely limited dexterity. He has countless hours of shooting and training with as a volunteer with State Law Enforcement. Anyway, I didn’t inspect the pistol but can only infer the blow to the hammer structurally failed the sear. Thereby making the hammer primary and half-cock notch irrelevant. Since the pistol fired, the half-cock notch also was unable to prevent the hammer from contacting the firing pin. And as I previously discussed, the inertia from the firing pin itself would be moving away from the primer toward the hammer.

My question about all the drop testing on the muzzle is underpinned by this real world example. It seems an underlying assumption has been made ignoring the possibility of sear failure when only testing with muzzle drops. Without the sear engagement on a cocked 1911 it seems there are 3 reasons it could fire: 1.dropping on the muzzle with inertial firing which is mitigated by light firing pins, heavy firing pin springs and shorter firing pins. 2. The sear pin fails or comes out which is very unlikely and can be inspected easily when cleaning. 3. You drop it on the hammer and structurally fail the sear. If the sear breaks there is nothing left to stop the hammer.



Did a truly qualified firearms examiner confirm sear failure?

Did a truly qualified firearms examiner confirm that the grip safety had been properly fitted, and was functioning properly?

Is the only eyewitness account that which was provided by your cousin? Trauma can cause things to be remembered in incorrect order. The mind can, later, fill in the missing details, with assumptions that can be incorrect. I am not questioning your cousin’s character or honesty, when I ask, could the shot have been fired before the pistol struck the floor?

Again, I am not questioning your cousin’s honesty, sincerity, or character. Being shot accidentally can, indeed, be very traumatic. In such cases, things can be remembered in fragments. The mind can develop mistaken assumptions, in an effort to reconstruct the details.

[Evil_Ed]

Did a truly qualified firearms examiner confirm sear failure?

Did a truly qualified firearms examiner confirm that the grip safety had been properly fitted, and was functioning properly?

Is the only eyewitness account that which was provided by your cousin? Trauma can cause things to be remembered in incorrect order. The mind can, later, fill in the missing details, with assumptions that can be incorrect. I am not questioning your cousin’s character or honesty, when I ask, could the shot have been fired before the pistol struck the floor?

Again, I am not questioning your cousin’s honesty, sincerity, or character. Being shot accidentally can, indeed, be very traumatic. In such cases, things can be remembered in fragments. The mind can develop mistaken assumptions, in an effort to reconstruct the details.

It's also possible that if the sear spring had been altered to give a lighter pull, it may have failed to hold the sear against the hammer through the impact and let the hammer fall. This is why when doing a trigger job/modifying the sear spring, checking for hammer follow is a must...it may have simply been that. Without examining it, who knows..

[willie]

The half cock's only purpose is to prevent the hammer from following the slide as it goes forward in case the hammer sear engagement is not adequate. I have never seen a bullseye 1911 with a hammer sear engagement that would hold if the slide were dropped on an empty chamber. Likewise I have seen numerous stock 1911's which would do the same thing. In these cases the half cock is performing.

The half cock notch will break when these pistols are dropped on the hammer. The same thing occurred with Old Model Ruger Single Action revolvers with the hammer down on the so called safety notch.

I have seen cops carrying 1911's on half cock. In every instance I convinced them that cocked and locked was a safer mode. My WW2 uncles trained me on the 1911 and forbid me to carry it with a loaded chamber. The 1911 is one of the pistols in addition to the P.38 that I grew up with. I carried both in condition 3 while fooling around in the woods.

Newer Colt 1911's have the half cock at a different location. With these the hammer position is nearer to the slide.
There are reasons that the 1911 is obsolete. I laugh at the foolish prices that many charge today to work on one. I well remember when most gunsmiths knew how to repair them in a satisfactory manner. I have sat and watched these pistols being repaired. It ain't rocket science.

[Trooper224]

Anyone can make a YouTube video.

[Ed L]

Anyone can make a YouTube video.

And sadly many of them do.

[Rmiked]

Did a truly qualified firearms examiner confirm sear failure?

Did a truly qualified firearms examiner confirm that the grip safety had been properly fitted, and was functioning properly?

Is the only eyewitness account that which was provided by your cousin? Trauma can cause things to be remembered in incorrect order. The mind can, later, fill in the missing details, with assumptions that can be incorrect. I am not questioning your cousin’s character or honesty, when I ask, could the shot have been fired before the pistol struck the floor?

Again, I am not questioning your cousin’s honesty, sincerity, or character. Being shot accidentally can, indeed, be very traumatic. In such cases, things can be remembered in fragments. The mind can develop mistaken assumptions, in an effort to reconstruct the details.

Rex, as I mentioned I did not inspect the pistol. And I don’t know it was modified prior to the incident. I saw his hand after the accident and it was a big family event given that his wife was there also in the garage when the pistol hit the floor and fired. His dad (my uncle) called my mother (His only sibling) as soon as it happened since we are all very close. All I know is that he dropped a loaded 1911 (45 ACP) on a concrete floor and almost got killed. The fact that it happened just got me wondering as to how that is possible which I have shared in previous notes. I have concluded that a high quality sear is probably a very good thing seeing as how in a series 70 1911 both the thumb safety and grip safety depend on the sear not failing. It seems that avoiding dropping a loaded pistol on concrete is something good to avoid. I’m still planning on getting a 1911 and likely a Dan Wesson which is series 70. I will be very focused on never dropping it while loaded on concrete. As Glock34 pointed out, a nice beaver tail will shroud the hammer very well if the pistol is cocked. I’m not sure a beaver tail can survive a drop of 5 feet on concrete though but it makes think “cocked and locked” on a loaded chamber is much better better than not cocked and no safety on a loaded chamber.

[HCM]

Rex, as I mentioned I did not inspect the pistol. And I don’t know it was modified prior to the incident. I saw his hand after the accident and it was a big family event given that his wife was there also in the garage when the pistol hit the floor and fired. His dad (my uncle) called my mother (His only sibling) as soon as it happened since we are all very close. All I know is that he dropped a loaded 1911 (45 ACP) on a concrete floor and almost got killed. The fact that it happened just got me wondering as to how that is possible which I have shared in previous notes. I have concluded that a high quality sear is probably a very good thing seeing as how in a series 70 1911 both the thumb safety and grip safety depend on the sear not failing. It seems that avoiding dropping a loaded pistol on concrete is something good to avoid. I’m still planning on getting a 1911 and likely a Dan Wesson which is series 70. I will be very focused on never dropping it while loaded on concrete. As Glock34 pointed out, a nice beaver tail will shroud the hammer very well if the pistol is cocked. I’m not sure a beaver tail can survive a drop of 5 feet on concrete though but it makes think “cocked and locked” on a loaded chamber is much better better than not cocked and no safety on a loaded chamber.

The original 1911 design know also known as Series 70 was never drop safe. The past is another country snd they did things differently there. But it’s also why the 1930s vintage Schwarz safety, now used in Kimber and S&W 1911s, and the series 80 type firing pin safeties exist..

You can minimize issues by ensuring you always have fresh firing pin springs in the gun (change them whenever you change recoil springs) and in some cases by going to lighter firing pins like the titanium FPS used in some Springfield Armory guns.

I do agree cocked and locked beast hammer down from a drop safety POV.

Nobody plans to drop guns so the “just don’t drop it” thing is not realistic. Same with falling or tripping with gun in hand. It is worth noting the hazards of trying to catch a dropped, loaded gun outweigh the ha adds of letting it drop.

[HCM]

I have never owned a 1911 but have shot them. My 1st Cousin dropped his series 70 1911 (45 ACP) in his garage on concrete floor after coming home from church. The pistol discharge vertically going thru his hand and hitting the ceiling. It passed near his head. Following surgery his hand works but has severely limited dexterity. He has countless hours of shooting and training with as a volunteer with State Law Enforcement. Anyway, I didn’t inspect the pistol but can only infer the blow to the hammer structurally failed the sear. Thereby making the hammer primary and half-cock notch irrelevant. Since the pistol fired, the half-cock notch also was unable to prevent the hammer from contacting the firing pin. And as I previously discussed, the inertia from the firing pin itself would be moving away from the primer toward the hammer.

My question about all the drop testing on the muzzle is underpinned by this real world example. It seems an underlying assumption has been made ignoring the possibility of sear failure when only testing with muzzle drops. Without the sear engagement on a cocked 1911 it seems there are 3 reasons it could fire: 1.dropping on the muzzle with inertial firing which is mitigated by light firing pins, heavy firing pin springs and shorter firing pins. 2. The sear pin fails or comes out which is very unlikely and can be inspected easily when cleaning. 3. You drop it on the hammer and structurally fail the sear. If the sear breaks there is nothing left to stop the hammer.

Are 1911 drop tests performed dropping on the hammer to prove the sear will not fail due to this blow? I honestly don’t know. It seems the things I have read focus on the muzzle drop only??

With my Beretta 92, there is the firing pin block for this hammer blow example to prevent firing. And if you carried a 92 with decocker down (vs momentary spring) the plunger is not aligned with the firing pin and therefore can’t contact the firing pin no matter how hard you hit the hammer. I use my Beretta in decocker up mode relying on double action pull for safety along with firing pin block.

There is nothing wrong with relying on the DA mode of a Beretta 92 without using the manual safety function of the F model, unless gun grabs are an issue.

However, you are going to use your Beretta 92f model for anything other than recreational shooting, and you are only using the safety as a decocker I would suggest getting a G conversion kit from Beretta and converting the lever to decocker only.

During handling the slide it is possible to inadvertently activate the safety. This has occurred in actual shootings, sometimes with negative outcomes.

[Bucky]

As for the dimpled primers... You ever check the primer on a chambered 556 AR-15? It gets dimpled every single time.

True, but the primers are harder to account for this

[19852+]

True, but the primers are harder to account for this

Yes, so I have read. But I have loaded rifle primers in my 9mm reloads and all my 9mm pistols functioned just fine. I do use full power mainsprings in all my pistols. Personally I would only carry a pistol with a FP safety.
I do not believe that releasing the slide on a series 70 will cause it to fire unless it has some serious issues.

[Trooper224]

Paul Harrell is an accomplished competition shooter and apparently he shot some guy one time. None of this means he's a qualified gunsmith, or qualified to lecture on tactics. His videos should not be watched for informational purposes.

A properly functioning 1911 will NOT release the hammer when the slide is dropped. A PROPERLY FUNCTIONING 1911 WILL NOT REALEASE THE HAMMER WHEN THE SLIDE IS DROPPED. If this occurs there's mechanical failure of some kind in the hammer/sear engagement, sear spring, etc. It's a matter of mechanical failure, not design. As for possibly discharging if dropped, well, no kidding. So will every pistol designed in the same era.

The Schwartz safety system is crap. The only thing worse than a Schwartz is a Kimber with a Schwartz.

[Jim Watson]

A thumb safety that directly blocked the hammer movement would eliminate this common dependency on the sear. Of course the series 80 gets around by blocking the firing pin movement independent of the sear. A series 70 could retain the superior trigger with a direct blocking mechanism.

The Spanish Star's thumb safety rocks the hammer back off the sear and blocks it in place, a more secure condition than Colt's.
Colt and makers of copies thought it was simpler to add a firing pin obstruction than to redesign the thumb safety.
There are several sorts. The 1930s Colt/Swartz operating off the grip safety was picked up by Kimber. The Smith & Wesson S1911 firing pin obstruction has a different linkage to the grip safety. Colt Series 80 works off the trigger and is used by several other manufacturers, either by license or after the patent expired.

Anecdote Alert

There was a wounding here that was blamed on a dropped derringer but it was really a domestic dispute that went wrong and everybody was suddenly very sorry. A family member was familiar with the design of the Remington double derringer, knew it was not drop safe, and provided a plausible story.

[LorenzoS]

Drake Oldham performed drop tests of 1911's with various firing pin configurations, floor surfaces, and heights 10 years ago. Draw any conclusions you might, just sharing as another data point. These were all dropped muzzle straight down, he did not drop on the hammer muzzle up.

Here is a link to an archive from the old 10-8 forums:

http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm
http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/DropTest_DrakesGunWorks.jpg

[JAH 3rd]

So when it comes to 1911's we have a choice of a firing pin safety or not. Just buy the series you are comfortable with, 70 or 80. There are arguments pro and con, same could be said for a magazine safety......once again pros and cons.

Anything mechanical can either break or perform in an unexpected way. It wasn't long after I bought my Ruger LCP it was recalled due to unintended discharge. Ruger fixed it quickly, no charge, with an extra magazine thrown in for my time.

I will say that both my 1911s are 70 series, but this thread has made me think about a 1911 with a firing pin safety.

[Robinson]

So when it comes to 1911's we have a choice of a firing pin safety or not. Just buy the series you are comfortable with, 70 or 80. There are arguments pro and con, same could be said for a magazine safety......once again pros and cons.

We also have a choice as to what type of firing pin safety. The Colt Series 80 mechanism works pretty well and I would choose that over the types used by Kimber, Sig, and formerly used by S&W.

[TiroFijo]

No, anyone claiming this is an idiot. Seriously, the 1911 has had no FP block for most of its existence, and this has never been an issue.

Being dropped, on the muzzle, from a height, yes, but never from the slide being released.

Just never been a thing.

Exactly

By the way... there is only a VEEERY SMALL difference in slide forward velocity (and thus FP inertia) when you use the slide stop vs normal cycle of fire when both are feeding a round from the magazine.

That being said, I prefer a S80 for drop safety issues, rare as they may be.

[Bucky]

Yes, so I have read. But I have loaded rifle primers in my 9mm reloads and all my 9mm pistols functioned just fine. I do use full power mainsprings in all my pistols. Personally I would only carry a pistol with a FP safety.
I do not believe that releasing the slide on a series 70 will cause it to fire unless it has some serious issues.

I’ve experienced it first hand.

1. Guns with reduced trigger pulls that will ignite pistol primers reliably, but not rifle.

2. Old super hot loads that would cause primer flow with pistol primers, but not rifle. (Back in the day, we used rifle primers in our .38 super open guns. It’s not really necessary today due to the reduction in major power factor floor.)

[MDFA]

I was watching a U-tube video about a Colt 1911 vs a Rock Island, both in 45 ACP. The guy doing the video is very experienced. He mentioned the possibility of an unintentional discharge IF you used the slide release to charge the pistol, after an empty mag lock-back. His reasoning was firing pin inertia. His Colt was a series 80 and he demonstrated the firing pin would not move forward without the trigger being depressed. The Rock Island was a series 70. Since the firing pin can move forward if there is no block, I get it that it may be possible. But if that could happen it seems to me it could happen every time the pistol reloads when the slide slams forward and the hammer is locked back on the sear. I believe I read where the some Colts have titanium firing pins which are lighter than steel to make them less likely to fire due to inertia if the pistol is dropped. So my question is this: Is it possible for a non-series 80 1911 to fire if charging using the slide release? And does anyone know if most firing pins are made of steel or are lighter materials used to minimize drop firing events?

I've owned and built many 1911's Mainly 70 series, any 80 series had the parts removed and replaced with Shims. Never ever had a pistol go off unless I intended to make it fire. With 110 years of use, most of it before any series 80 changes and millions of pistols, I think if that was an issue, we would of heard of it by now.

Not being an ass, but I don't think he's as experienced as he might want people to believe.

[theJanitor]

I prefer a gunsmith tuned s80 over a s70 pistol for my defensive needs. When tuned up right, there are negligible downsides for a CCW type weapon, with the bonus of additional safety. I've had superb s80 pistols built by Lary Vickers, Wilsons (Tripp, Phillips, Peters), Bonar at Novak's, CT Brian, etc., so I feel like I can talk from experience here.

THAT BEING SAID, the s70 system is very good and I have complete trust in the design. All of my current defensive 1911's are s70, and the rear sight on one has the dent from being dropped on concrete from torso-height, and it didn't go off.

[TiroFijo]

Just like the Sig P320... You are dropping it wrong :D

[HCM]

We also have a choice as to what type of firing pin safety. The Colt Series 80 mechanism works pretty well and I would choose that over the types used by Kimber, Sig, and formerly used by S&W.

I also prefer the series 80 FP system to the Schwarz but AFAIK the SIG 1911s use the series 80 system as do the ParaOrdnance /Remington.

[willie]

Combine a pre 80 1911 with a firing pin slightly longer than spec with a firing pin spring slightly weaker than spec and you might get a big surprise if you do drop it. The early S&W 39's were not drop safe and surprised a few unfortunates. Ditto for Old Model Ruger Single Actions carried with 6 in the cylinder. My suggestion for owners of older 1911's is to use a titanium firing pin and stronger firing pin spring.

[Robinson]

I also prefer the series 80 FP system to the Schwarz but AFAIK the SIG 1911s use the series 80 system as do the ParaOrdnance /Remington.

HCM, you are correct regarding the Sig FPS. My mistake.

[Cory]

Paul Harrell, what a recognized expert. :rolleyes:

Once upon a time he had a dust up with jetfire who is often abrasive but has verifiable proven performance with widely used metrics. You could say he is "peer-reviewed". Paul Harrell is not peer reviewed. He makes claims to authority, but I've never seen him back them up. That's beside the point. During this dust up, Caleb referenced Masad Ayoob. Paul said he was sure that Mas was an expert... but then implied he is wrong. Apparently he knows more than everyone ever.

So you want a Dan Wesson 1911? Okay. Permission granted. Go get one. What's the point of this thread? An unrecognized expert says they can fire when releasing the slide, and everyone here disagrees. But then we fall back on maybe he is somehow right? And drop safety?

I have a Dan Wesson Valor. It's great. Go get one. Please unsubscribe from Paul Harrell, and read this forum more.

[Stephanie B]

The 1911 is one of the pistols in addition to the P.38 that I grew up with. I carried both in condition 3 while fooling around in the woods.

Other than convenience of carry, I don't get Condition 3 carry. One nominally needs two hand to make the gun ready and, with that in mind, the question posed is why not carry a rifle or shotgun.

I watched some customer in a gunshop demonstrate to his friend how to carry Condition 3 (with an empty Glock). On the third demo, he got hung up in his t-shirt and almost dropped it. The counter rat didn't even turn a hair.

Due to the threat of terrorism, one of my duty stations went to having the armed watches carry 1911A1s in Condition 3. After two NDs, the command concluded that the risk of terrorism was less than the risk of someone accidentally getting shot, so it was back to Condition 4.

[farscott]

Combine a pre 80 1911 with a firing pin slightly longer than spec with a firing pin spring slightly weaker than spec and you might get a big surprise if you do drop it. The early S&W 39's were not drop safe and surprised a few unfortunates. Ditto for Old Model Ruger Single Actions carried with 6 in the cylinder. My suggestion for owners of older 1911's is to use a titanium firing pin and stronger firing pin spring.

None of the S&W M39/M59 pistols are drop safe with the safety OFF. With the safety ON and a good firing pin spring, the pistol is drop safe because the safety blocked the hammer and the firing pin spring was supposed to arrest firing pin movement. There are reports of guns firing when dropped traced to weak firing pin springs. 2nd Generation guns (439, 459, 559, etc.) added the firing pin safety. 2nd and 3rd Generation guns are drop safe. None of the 1st Generation guns are drop safe.

[JohnO]

Paul Harrell, what a recognized expert. :rolleyes:


I have a Dan Wesson Valor. It's great. Go get one. Please unsubscribe from Paul Harrell, and read this forum more.

Dam good advice!

Well perhaps we should reveal the truth about how and when a 1911 fires when the slide is dropped. That would be when the bone brain behind the gun has their finger inside the trigger guard.

[TGS]

Due to the threat of terrorism, one of my duty stations went to having the armed watches carry 1911A1s in Condition 3. After two NDs, the command concluded that the risk of terrorism was less than the risk of someone accidentally getting shot, so it was back to Condition 4.

but...but...but...how?

Was Condition 3 with the 1911 different than Condition 3 of current day? Should just be a mag inserted with no manipulation of the slide, how on earth did they end up NDing?

[Rmiked]

Paul Harrell, what a recognized expert. :rolleyes:

Once upon a time he had a dust up with jetfire who is often abrasive but has verifiable proven performance with widely used metrics. You could say he is "peer-reviewed". Paul Harrell is not peer reviewed. He makes claims to authority, but I've never seen him back them up. That's beside the point. During this dust up, Caleb referenced Masad Ayoob. Paul said he was sure that Mas was an expert... but then implied he is wrong. Apparently he knows more than everyone ever.

So you want a Dan Wesson 1911? Okay. Permission granted. Go get one. What's the point of this thread? An unrecognized expert says they can fire when releasing the slide, and everyone here disagrees. But then we fall back on maybe he is somehow right? And drop safety?

I have a Dan Wesson Valor. It's great. Go get one. Please unsubscribe from Paul Harrell, and read this forum more.

Cory, the reason for original post was when I heard Paul imply a 1911 could fire when the slide goes forward it didn’t sound right to me, even though I don’t have a 1911. I reasoned that “full auto” would happen and with the design being so tested, I didn’t see how possible. I don’t subscribe to Paul’s channel but the few videos I have watched he shoots a Beretta well. And he has discussed some legal cases (not his) regarding self defense that seemed objective and would appeal to many here that are obviously pro-2nd Amendment.

Since I am wanting a 1911, I came here to confirm my thoughts that firing on returning to battery is not a concern.

My reasons for wanting a 1911 are as follows: 1. Respect for Browning and the 1911 service and history. It’s right there with baseball and apple pie. Without freedom we have neither baseball nor apple pie 2. I shot my friends and loved it and shot very accurately. Great feel in hand, fantastic trigger 3. The 1911 would fit well with my Beretta 92 both being military issue from 1911 thru 1985. I am not a striker fan so the SIG 320 won’t be added. I prefer to see the hammer. Understand those that love it. My brother has one.

I’m leaning toward a Dan Wesson Heritage or Specialist. I like the classic lines of the Heritage and night sights and beveled mag well on Specialist. After these thread comments I have a more thorough understanding of series 70 vs 80. I’m ok with 70 now that I fully understand how the grip safety and thumb safety work along with pros and cons of different carry conditions.

Thanks for the wealth of advice. Pistol forum is fantastic.

[Cory]

Cory, the reason for original post was when I heard Paul imply a 1911 could fire when the slide goes forward it didn’t sound right to me, even though I don’t have a 1911. I reasoned that “full auto” would happen and with the design being so tested, I didn’t see how possible. I don’t subscribe to Paul’s channel but the few videos I have watched he shoots a Beretta well. And he has discussed some legal cases (not his) regarding self defense that seemed objective and would appeal to many here that are obviously pro-2nd Amendment.

Since I am wanting a 1911, I came here to confirm my thoughts that firing on returning to battery is not a concern.

My reasons for wanting a 1911 are as follows: 1. Respect for Browning and the 1911 service and history. It’s right there with baseball and apple pie. Without freedom we have neither baseball nor apple pie 2. I shot my friends and loved it and shot very accurately. Great feel in hand, fantastic trigger 3. The 1911 would fit well with my Beretta 92 both being military issue from 1911 thru 1985. I am not a striker fan so the SIG 320 won’t be added. I prefer to see the hammer. Understand those that love it. My brother has one.

I’m leaning toward a Dan Wesson Heritage or Specialist. I like the classic lines of the Heritage and night sights and beveled mag well on Specialist. After these thread comments I have a more thorough understanding of series 70 vs 80. I’m ok with 70 now that I fully understand how the grip safety and thumb safety work along with pros and cons of different carry conditions.

Thanks for the wealth of advice. Pistol forum is fantastic.

Cool.

If you can find a Valor I'd highly recommend it. Mine has around 1000-1300 rounds as a fun gun. They have the rounded slide top, that to me is more classic. The duty treat finish on the 2015ish models are excellent. The older ones have a "duty coat" that is more coating than actual metal treatment.

Valor was the flagship of DW for sometime. Last I heard they disappeared from production, much like the beloved Cbob. The largely empty slide with classic lines but modern touches appealled alot to me. I have a couple 92s, a 1911, and a USGI M17. The heritage (even if updated) is not lost on me.

I would avoid a stainless DW. I don't care for shiney guns much, and DW had issues with slide/frame galling in their stainless models. It was normally discovered early in the pistol's round count and I think mostly resolved now. None the less I remember it being often discussed in the 2015 timeframe I got my Valor.

Mine has worked well with Wilson 47Ds, but I'd probably get ETMs moving forward. Mine is a range toy, but if it was all I had I would carry it. I like the 92 for carry, but think DW represents a sweet spot in quality/price for 1911s.

Good luck finding one, and I hope to see it in the gallery.

[willie]

Other than convenience of carry, I don't get Condition 3 carry. One nominally needs two hand to make the gun ready and, with that in mind, the question posed is why not carry a rifle or shotgun.

I watched some customer in a gunshop demonstrate to his friend how to carry Condition 3 (with an empty Glock). On the third demo, he got hung up in his t-shirt and almost dropped it. The counter rat didn't even turn a hair.

Due to the threat of terrorism, one of my duty stations went to having the armed watches carry 1911A1s in Condition 3. After two NDs, the command concluded that the risk of terrorism was less than the risk of someone accidentally getting shot, so it was back to Condition 4.

I agree that if carrying for self defense only having a loaded chamber makes sense. Having heard many incidences where some troops can't operate a pistol safely, I think that a double action only revolver might be a better choice for applications where staff people are being issued a handgun. And, yes, I understand a revolver's limitations.

[HCM]

Cory, the reason for original post was when I heard Paul imply a 1911 could fire when the slide goes forward it didn’t sound right to me, even though I don’t have a 1911. I reasoned that “full auto” would happen and with the design being so tested, I didn’t see how possible. I don’t subscribe to Paul’s channel but the few videos I have watched he shoots a Beretta well. And he has discussed some legal cases (not his) regarding self defense that seemed objective and would appeal to many here that are obviously pro-2nd Amendment.

Since I am wanting a 1911, I came here to confirm my thoughts that firing on returning to battery is not a concern.

My reasons for wanting a 1911 are as follows: 1. Respect for Browning and the 1911 service and history. It’s right there with baseball and apple pie. Without freedom we have neither baseball nor apple pie 2. I shot my friends and loved it and shot very accurately. Great feel in hand, fantastic trigger 3. The 1911 would fit well with my Beretta 92 both being military issue from 1911 thru 1985. I am not a striker fan so the SIG 320 won’t be added. I prefer to see the hammer. Understand those that love it. My brother has one.

I’m leaning toward a Dan Wesson Heritage or Specialist. I like the classic lines of the Heritage and night sights and beveled mag well on Specialist. After these thread comments I have a more thorough understanding of series 70 vs 80. I’m ok with 70 now that I fully understand how the grip safety and thumb safety work along with pros and cons of different carry conditions.

Thanks for the wealth of advice. Pistol forum is fantastic.

A properly functioning," in spec" 1911 will not fire when the slide goes forward.

Any gun with broken firing pin or a firing pin/striker stuck in the forward position could go off when the slide goes forward on a loaded round but that is a malfunction.

Similarly, intentionally installing things like weak firing pin springs and extended firing pins to mask poorly done trigger jobs and get the "sweet trigger pull" are ultimately operator error, not the fault of the 1911 design.

Nor is such stupidity limited to 1911s. If you search PF you will find a recent thread about the death of a USPSA Range Officer resulting from a dropped CZ-75 which had been modified with an extended firing pin. That is not the fault of the CZ design, rather it's the fault of the idiot who modified the gun.

[Stephanie B]

but...but...but...how?

Was Condition 3 with the 1911 different than Condition 3 of current day? Should just be a mag inserted with no manipulation of the slide, how on earth did they end up NDing?

The procedure for changing the watch involved handing over the gun and holster. The guy going off watch would draw, rack the gun, point it in a safe direction and pull the trigger. Since everyone was used to carrying it empty, few really checked the chamber.

So they did that and two guys neglected to remove the magazine beforehand. *Bang* Each time, the ship was outboard of a certain destroyer tender, at different times. Each time, the round hit the tender.

Both times, the sailor involved was from the same division. During a later tender availability, at the opening conference, the division officer presented the officers from the tender with a plaque that had a Purple Heart with an Oak Leaf Cluster and the dates of the NDs. Everyone thought it was funny as hell, except for the tender's new CO, who looked at his XO and muttered: "You're gonna brief be about this afterwards, aren't you, XO."

[Stephanie B]

I agree that if carrying for self defense only having a loaded chamber makes sense. Having heard many incidences where some troops can't operate a pistol safely, I think that a double action only revolver might be a better choice for applications where staff people are being issued a handgun. And, yes, I understand a revolver's limitations.

Issuing DAO M1917s would have been a fine way to go.

[TheNewbie]

Your gun should always be pointed in a safe direction, this includes loading and unloading.


The P250 would probably be have been a great option for a general issue firearm.

[willie]

My good friend recently retired after spending 20 years in that branch of the Air Force that was once called the Air Police. He was an nco that had had small arms training duties. He complained at length about difficulties involved with teaching his charges to safely operate the Beretta 92. Further he referred to similar issues when conducting qualifications for regular troops. And we are talking about security forces!

[Jim Watson]

Do you think it would be helpful to specify the same manual of arms for the sidearm as the infantry rifle?

The 1911 et seq are a good start with a safety convenient to the right thumb. You would have to have a striker or an enclosed hammer so people wouldn't be frightened by the sight of a cocked gun, as nobody seems bothered by the idea of a rifle or shotgun unobviously cocked and on safe.
1911 and many other slide stops are best operated by the left thumb, not too far from the AR's bolt stop.

Just put the magazine catch in reach of the right forefinger and you are all set to operate rifle and pistol similarly.
Maybe some cocking ears on the rear of the pistol slide, too.

[HCM]

Do you think it would be helpful to specify the same manual of arms for the sidearm as the infantry rifle?

The 1911 et seq are a good start with a safety convenient to the right thumb. You would have to have a striker or an enclosed hammer so people wouldn't be frightened by the sight of a cocked gun, as nobody seems bothered by the idea of a rifle or shotgun unobviously cocked and on safe.
1911 and many other slide stops are best operated by the left thumb, not too far from the AR's bolt stop.

Just put the magazine catch in reach of the right forefinger and you are all set to operate rifle and pistol similarly.
Maybe some cocking ears on the rear of the pistol slide, too.

You just described the M17/M18 minus the cocking ears.

[Bucky]

I prefer a gunsmith tuned s80 over a s70 pistol for my defensive needs. When tuned up right, there are negligible downsides for a CCW type weapon, with the bonus of additional safety. I've had superb s80 pistols built by Lary Vickers, Wilsons (Tripp, Phillips, Peters), Bonar at Novak's, CT Brian, etc., so I feel like I can talk from experience here.


I have a 1991A1 worked over by EGW (back when they did that sort of thing). When I let people shoot it, they don’t believe that all the series 80s parts are intact and functional. I see no downside to the series 80s.

[Robinson]

I have a 1991A1 worked over by EGW (back when they did that sort of thing). When I let people shoot it, they don’t believe that all the series 80s parts are intact and functional. I see no downside to the series 80s.

I've found that when it comes to standard production line Colts, S70 guns will generally have a slightly better trigger out of the box than S80 guns. But shoot any S80 gun built by the Colt Custom Shop and it becomes obvious how good they can be.

The only minor downside to the S80 system is that the guns take a bit more time to completely disassemble and reassemble. When field stripping for cleaning there is no difference.

[Trooper224]

Cool.

If you can find a Valor I'd highly recommend it. Mine has around 1000-1300 rounds as a fun gun. They have the rounded slide top, that to me is more classic. The duty treat finish on the 2015ish models are excellent. The older ones have a "duty coat" that is more coating than actual metal treatment.

Valor was the flagship of DW for sometime. Last I heard they disappeared from production, much like the beloved Cbob. The largely empty slide with classic lines but modern touches appealled alot to me. I have a couple 92s, a 1911, and a USGI M17. The heritage (even if updated) is not lost on me.

I would avoid a stainless DW. I don't care for shiney guns much, and DW had issues with slide/frame galling in their stainless models. It was normally discovered early in the pistol's round count and I think mostly resolved now. None the less I remember it being often discussed in the 2015 timeframe I got my Valor.

Mine has worked well with Wilson 47Ds, but I'd probably get ETMs moving forward. Mine is a range toy, but if it was all I had I would carry it. I like the 92 for carry, but think DW represents a sweet spot in quality/price for 1911s.

Good luck finding one, and I hope to see it in the gallery.


The Valor is back in the line up, but with some further enhancements. All DWs are stainless(except the A1), regardless of the Duty finish. My Valor is six years old and the Duty finish has worn like iron. It's more than worth the added expense.

[Cory]

The Valor is back in the line up, but with some further enhancements. All DWs are stainless(except the A1), regardless of the Duty finish. My Valor is six years old and the Duty finish has worn like iron. It's more than worth the added expense.

Right, I meant the non duty treat stainless. I phrased that poorly. Truly hard to photograph, and incredibly rugged.