9mm Federal (rimmed)

[Caballoflaco]

ETA: do any of ya’ll remember this one?

While browsing through my 12th edition Cartridges of the World last night I came across the old 9mm Federal round. It was a rimmed cartridge that was the same length as 9mm. The factory loading was a 115gr bullet @ 1280 FPS from a 4” test barrel. The only guns ever produced in this caliber were from charter arms for a couple of years and it lived a short life from only 1989-194. Why the short life, because one or two idiots put them in some old break-top .38’s and blew up their guns.

That sucks, because it could be an awesome little wheel gun chambering and would be even cooler if Ruger or Smith would produce a gun with a shorter frame and cylinder to go with. I wonder if one of the smaller makers like Buffalo bore or Corbon would be interested in tooling up for this if the current ammo insanity ever abates.

7059570596

[Jim Watson]

To paraphrase Jeff Cooper, a tool steel S&W Terrier, Regulation Police or Colt Police Positive would be a natural home for 9mm Federal.

But those frame sizes, made of high strength materials, would also work for 9mm P in clips or with patent rimless extractors and no need to make special ammo.

[olstyn]

would also work for 9mm P in clips or with patent rimless extractors and no need to make special ammo.

As a not-a-revolver guy, I often wonder why moon clips aren't normal/standard things for basically all revolvers. I see lots of up sides (including but not limited to not being limited to rimmed cartridges) and I don't understand what the down sides would be.

[Crazy Dane]

I thinking this would work in my LCR in 9mm like 45 auto rim in ACP guns, right? Starline doesn't have a listing but can they be encourage to to produce a run with all of the 9mm revolvers on the market now?

[Jim Watson]

No, look at the picture. The 9mm Fed rim is the same as .38 S&W or Special while the .45 Auto Rim's rim is about half again as thick so as to fill the space left for a clip.

I did not get a lot of good out of clips and .38/.357. The relief grooves vary, you have to match clip to brass and the generally thin clips, narrow, shallow grooves, and long cartridges give a lot of wobble so you have to have just the right technique. Note that the USPSA Revolver and ICORE shooters often use .38 Short Colt brass so as to minimize the wobble and ease loading and ejection.

[Half Moon]

As a not-a-revolver guy, I often wonder why moon clips aren't normal/standard things for basically all revolvers. I see lots of up sides (including but not limited to not being limited to rimmed cartridges) and I don't understand what the down sides would be.

Concerns about fragility, in some clipped guns an inability to loose load cartridges, an inability to eject loose loaded cartridges, an awkward package size for carrying reloads, headspace concerns clipped versus non-clipped, and mooning / de-mooning being a pain. My experience with .45 ACP revolvers says it's mostly red herrings but those are the common concerns and I really haven't tried the other mooned options to flat dismiss them.

[olstyn]

Concerns about fragility, in some clipped guns an inability to loose load cartridges, an inability to eject loose loaded cartridges, an awkward package size for carrying reloads, headspace concerns clipped versus non-clipped, and mooning / de-mooning being a pain. My experience with .45 ACP revolvers says it's mostly red herrings but those are the common concerns and I really haven't tried the other mooned options to flat dismiss them.

Sounds like your experience matches up with my expectation pretty well. In the somewhat unlikely event that I ever purchase a revolver, I expect it would be a moon clipped 9mm simply for caliber commonality with the autoloaders I already own.

[farscott]

I remember when 9mm Federal made its debut. I think it died due to the lack of quality revolvers for the caliber as part of the move away from revolver to autos due to the "wondernine" craze. The only revolver I remember seeing was the Charter Arms version, and, even back then, Charter Arms had less than a stellar reputation.

The other issue at the time was 9x19 revolvers flopped in the market. Ruger had tried the Service-Six/Security Six and later the SP-101, and S&W had tried the M940. S&W was also left holding the bag on the now collectible M547 that did not need clips due to the clever fingers in the extractor star.

I know that it is not feasible due to concerns about blowing up older revolvers, but there would be a market for a .38 S&W length-round loaded to Magnum pressures. That would allow easier reloads and shorter cylinder length, allowing for longer barrel length and less weight for the same size revolver. The concept could be used with a new bullet diameter somewhere between 0.312" and 0.355" so as to not grow the revolver and allow six-round capacity.

[revolvergeek]

FYI Gun Monkey in Crofton, KY had a box of Federal 115 jhp 9mm Federal on the shelf next to the .38 S&W ammo. I almost bought it just to keep somebody from blowing up Grandma's old top break....

[jh9]

I was wondering if someone was going to bring this up.


xNote that the USPSA Revolver and ICORE shooters often use .38 Short Colt brass so as to minimize the wobble and ease loading and ejection.

Which are, notably, really close to a rimmed 9mm in both overall size and pressure when loaded to minor PF (158gr / 820fps).

[Bergeron]

There have certainly been many more less-useful cartridges that have made re-appearances, and I'd be very interested in this one.

I'm not up on my revolver-cartridge-cyliner interfaces, but I'd most like to be able to choose between shooting the Federal and clipped 9x19 in the same gun.

I could see some of the very lightweight J-frames, as well as something like a 3" lightweight K-frame.

We could use all these fabulous new .355" bullet designs, but I don't know how(if?) the current state of the ammo industry could spare the time and production capacity to spin up a new line like that.

[Scal]

Seems like the simplest thing to do would be to load up .38 short colts with .355 bullets and 9mm equivalent powder loads and possibly just change the headstamp to help prevent the risk of blowing up an old gun. .38 MSC, for modern Short Colt, maybe?

The overall length of the .38 short colt cases is near identical to 9mm, so assuming that modern solid head .38 short colt cases can contain the pressure, which I think they can, it would be a way to get something equivalent to 9mm federal for relatively little effort.

This assumes that one isn’t interested in using moon clips gun, though.

[revolvergeek]

.38 S&w brass is probably a closer fit due to the taper, and is available new from Starline. Ed Harris has written about shooting .38 S&w in his 940 with just a very minor change to the chamber throats.

[Rock185]

Yes, I do remember this one. At the time, it seemed like a poorly thought out effort to me. If 9MM performance in a small revolver was the goal, use of common 9X19MM seemed much more logical to me than creating a new cartridge. Having chronographed regular 9X19MM in a couple small revolvers, I could agree that 9MM performance might be a worthy goal. The 9MM in short revolver barrels seems pretty efficient, closer to .357 than .38 +P in some loadings.

If I ever come across a box of 9MM Federal, I'd like to try it, and chronograph some, in my short barreled S&W and Ruger 9MM revolvers....