Airlite backup: .38 vs. .22 Magnum

[overton]

Hi!

I am considering switching my non-permissive environment /summer carry from a S&W 340PD to an 351C Airlite.

Seven low recoiling rds. sound much better than five heavier recoiling ones.

Has anybody gone this route too? Any thoughts? Is the .22 Magnum a good enough caliber? Is it reliable in the 351C? No ignition problems?

Thanks!

[Navin Johnson]

22 LR would be better as the magnum needs a long barrel to achieve any advantage (think slow burning powder). Not to mention muzzle blast.

One could argue 5 full 38 wadcutters might be better than 7 22's.

[Stephanie B]

If I was going into this on a "clean-sheet" basis, I might look hard at a .32 LCR.

[jandbj]

If I was going into this on a "clean-sheet" basis, I might look hard at a .32 LCR.

In a perfect world, the unobtanium 432. LCR is weighty in .327

That said, I sometimes carry a 351c with a front night sight, and I won’t sell my 43c either. And I’ve owned a slew of 442/642’s and LCR’s.

jetfire & lucky gunner have done some good articles on the mouseguns that are worth reading.

[jjohn]

I have had enough light primer strikes with rimfire that I am wary of them for self defense. Having 8 instead of 5-6 shots in a revolver might mitigate that somewhat. I would load either CCI Velocitors or another high energy 40 gr but performance out of a short barrel is still marginal. The nice part for 2021 is that practice ammo is available and relatively cheap.

Some good gel test data at https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/#22LR.

[MolonLabe416]

I use a 351c for that application. The magnum has no advantage and several disadvantages in such a short barrel.

New kid on the block:

https://www.federalpremium.com/rimfire/personal-defense-punch-rimfire/

[Half Moon]

For what it's worth, favorable thoughts by Greg Ellifritz on the .22 Magnum snubs:

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/what-about-the-22-magnum

[JCN]

Hi!

I am considering switching my non-permissive environment /summer carry from a S&W 340PD to an 351C Airlite.

Seven low recoiling rds. sound much better than five heavier recoiling ones.

Has anybody gone this route too? Any thoughts? Is the .22 Magnum a good enough caliber? Is it reliable in the 351C? No ignition problems?

Thanks!

Everything is a trade off.

70499

For size comparison. 340PD, 2” NAA black widow, P32AT.

I’d personally probably go to the P32 if I wanted low recoil and more rounds in a smaller package, but if you’re married to revolvers in that role that’s a limiting factor.

The 2” black widow is very easy to carry and doesn’t look like a gun. It has a real grip and real sights and the 2” barrel in WMR is actually decent enough you can get the Gold Dots to expand.

See my gel test bullet extraction below:

70501

Shorter than 2” barrel has spotty expansion for the ammo, but with those wimpy rounds you’re just punching holes anyway.

The single action of the black widow can be an issue, but if you’re talking about a “notagun” role it might suffice. I sometimes pocket carry a 1” NAA PUG as a noisemaker.

I did test to see if I could shoot the NAAs faster and came up with Cowboy stylez.


https://youtu.be/JimzGCHy8CQ

[JJN]

I'd be curious how they do respectively as contact shots. If you think of the J-frame as a cheat code for contact distance engagements, that changes the equation a bit. I've thought that a Centennial J-Frame in .22 Mag with a ClipDraw might be a really good solution for a lot of folks. The carry version of a sock-drawer gun, if that makes sense.

[LtDave]

Hi!

I am considering switching my non-permissive environment /summer carry from a S&W 340PD to an 351C Airlite.

Seven low recoiling rds. sound much better than five heavier recoiling ones.

Has anybody gone this route too? Any thoughts? Is the .22 Magnum a good enough caliber? Is it reliable in the 351C? No ignition problems?

Thanks!

I think the .22 Magnum is good enough. I prefer .22 Magnum over .22 LR for self defense purposes because in my experience .22 Magnum is of higher quality and has fewer failures to fire that plague .22LR. Extra velocity in a short barreled .22 Mag isn't a factor in my decision. .22 Mag also offers bullets that are better (Gold Dots and Critical Defense are good examples) than you're going to get in a .22 LR.

Keep in mind that the rimfire S&W J frames will have heavier trigger pulls than centerfires. This is required for reliable ignition. My 43C has a noticeably nicer trigger than my 351c.

[BillSWPA]

Everything is a trade off.

70499

For size comparison. 340PD, 2” NAA black widow, P32AT.

I’d personally probably go to the P32 if I wanted low recoil and more rounds in a smaller package, but if you’re married to revolvers in that role that’s a limiting factor.

The 2” black widow is very easy to carry and doesn’t look like a gun. It has a real grip and real sights and the 2” barrel in WMR is actually decent enough you can get the Gold Dots to expand.

See my gel test bullet extraction below:

70501

Shorter than 2” barrel has spotty expansion for the ammo, but with those wimpy rounds you’re just punching holes anyway.

The single action of the black widow can be an issue, but if you’re talking about a “notagun” role it might suffice. I sometimes pocket carry a 1” NAA PUG as a noisemaker.

I did test to see if I could shoot the NAAs faster and came up with Cowboy stylez.


https://youtu.be/JimzGCHy8CQ

I am a big fan of the P-32, and carried one as a NPE gun for a few years. However, it is worth mentioning that these guns must be tested when loaded 7+1 to assure reliability. In my experience, the factory 9 lb. recoil spring is not strong enough to reliably overcome any rim interactions when fully loaded, resulting in first shot jams. Wolff 11 lb. springs are strong enough to overcome this issue.

Avoid doing the "fluff and buff" advocated on other sites, and stick with the polymer guide rod.

Adding a Crimson Trace LaserGuard seriously enhances the ease of accurate shooting.

For the North American Arms revolvers, I find that the "boot" grip provides just enough grip for good recoil control while still being more concealable than a small semiauto. Some users report good results with the slip-on rubber grips. Before truly small semiautos in .32 and larger caliber became common, people I respected carried these tiny revolvers in their pocket as backup or NPE guns, so I did the same until I bought my P-32.

[BillSWPA]

One could argue 5 full 38 wadcutters might be better than 7 22's.

Behindblueis has pointed out the ability of .38 to break bones. I would also take 5 of .38 over 7 of .22.

[jandbj]

I think the .22 Magnum is good enough. I prefer .22 Magnum over .22 LR for self defense purposes because in my experience .22 Magnum is of higher quality and has fewer failures to fire that plague .22LR. Extra velocity in a short barreled .22 Mag isn't a factor in my decision. .22 Mag also offers bullets that are better (Gold Dots and Critical Defense are good examples) than you're going to get in a .22 LR.

Keep in mind that the rimfire S&W J frames will have heavier trigger pulls than centerfires. This is required for reliable ignition. My 43C has a noticeably nicer trigger than my 351c.

Mine too. Contemplating dropping the 351c off to Mike LaRocca or Karl Sokol for a trigger job.

[JHC]

.22 magnum beats the .22 LR out of snubs like 9mm + P does to 9mm standard pressure. We load the 351 with 40 grain solids from CCI

Details here from Lucky Gunner.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMkp2m6ZuIc&t=457s

[SiriusBlunder]

Previous Discussion on this topic:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33482-5-rounds-of-38-or-7-rounds-of-22-mag

My thoughts FWIW: .38 Spl will reliably break bones, .22 WMR won't, so I carry an LCR .357 with barrier blind GD 135 .38 Spl +P and not my .22LR or .22WMR LCR's for a winter jacket pocket gun. If .38 Spl +P recoil is an issue, wadcutters are an option.

If you decide to go with .22 WMR, ammo choice to get decent penetration from 1.8'' barrel seems somewhat limited (https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2020/6/17/the-22-magnum-good-for-self-defense/).

ETA: I haven't researched it a lot or done verification, but I've seen many say that in a snubby, there is no advantage of a .22WMR over .22LR in terms of terminal ballistics, and a disadvantage in cost and blast/flash.

[BehindBlueI's]

Nothing I've seen since the last thread (that DMWINCLE posted) has changed my mind. I'll just recycle a bit of content here, but it's a good thread on it's own and I'd recommend reading through it:


...Unless physically incapable, carry something that will consistently and reliably break an adult's bones, which in my observations puts the floor at .380.


Let me flip the question. Rimfire advocates keep asking "when did terminal ballistics matter..." in both threads, this one and the 2011 one. Fine. When did capacity matter in the same situation? When did 5 rounds of .38 fail to work when an additional few rounds of rimfire would have saved the day?

Most random attacker, the vast majority in fact, are not dedicated to the assault. Stipulated. Then what does an extra 3, or 50, rounds get you? They ran at the first sign of the draw, they ran at the first sound of gunfire, they ran at the first injury. I've often said that based on my stats you can win about 1/3 of these encounters with a starter pistol.

The problem is the dedicated attacker or the attacker who *can't* flee. He's cornered in the business, etc. and has to shoot his way out. He's high and doesn't realize what's going on and just continues his actions (people have been shot and INGORED THE SHOOTER TO CONTINUE THEIR "MISSION", particularly the violently mentally ill) Maybe you're such a fantastic shooter that you can, on demand and under fight or flight response, ear canal/eye socket shot the bad guy. But most of us aren't, and most of the people who read this aren't, and most of the people we recommend guns to aren't. Hence I want a gun that can break bones because I get that I might not have a head shot available even if I can make those shots on demand. I might have to shoot someone in the back and their spine or back of the skull is my best target while they are murdering someone else. I might have to shoot at a shin from under a car or a forearm that's sticking around a corner because that's all the target I have of someone actively murdering others or trying to murder me. Center mass is center of whatever the target is. Neither a .38 nor a .22 is likely to kill via an extremity injury, but which degrades the opponent's ability to fight more, a small hole through the meat, or a small hole through the meat and a broken bone?

How many bad guys flee but fire a shot or two as they leave? I'm not in front of my stats, but more than zero. From memory, maybe 15%-ish. Want to roll the dice? You put them to flight, it's un-aimed fire and you're *probably* not going to get hit. How much degradation of their ability to fire those shots would you like if your life and/or the people you are protecting's life is up to the random chance of where those bullets go.

It's in the "better than nothing" and "more likely to work then not" camp if you are not the target of a dedicated attacker. However the supposed benefit of extra capacity is much less likely to be useful in a real world fight then the ability to degrade an opponent via crippling injury that a .38/.380 + can provide.

The .22 is for people who are physically incapable of shooting larger calibers. Severe arthritis has set in and it's painful and flinch inducing to shoot something else. Tendons are damaged and the hand is impaired to the point recoil is physically damaging to the shooter. Etc.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ha, I am one of the chosen with SW models in 32 HR mag and 327 Fed Mag. A 432 and a 632. Lately, I've been have some back issues (sigh) so violating all my principles of carrying a semi and extra mag, the 432 has moved into EDC and a speed loader. The Glock will reemerge soon.

Luckily I have stash of rounds as I doubt they will produce more of this ammo in my life time. Anyone seen the new Federal or Buffalo Bore rounds around?

[MandoWookie]

My 2 cents, owning and carrying a 351c, is that it is a great NPE gun, and I have had zero misfires with it in about 700 rounds of Federal FMJ, recoil tolerable a lot longer than even light wadcutters out of my 442.
I have much more confidence in the bullet construction of my carry Gold Dots to hold together and penetrate, even if not expand.
Sights are superior over the 442, and the trigger is heavier, but I really do not note it as being that much worse than my stock 442. But I like NY triggers in my Glocks, so maybe I'm not the one to ask on trigger quality.
Ejection is crap. The long straight cases do not always want to drop clear, and the factory grips will occasionally interfere as well. Reloads are not a thing that happens quickly.
After about 50 rounds chambers will get gunky enough to keep rounds from dropping in smoothly, but it is still the cleanest shooting rimfire I have ever shot.
Carry wise, I forget sometimes that I am carrying it. It is crazy light, and a basic Galco Stow-n-go appendix carried it disappears even in light gym clothes. Fully loaded it doesn't seem much heavier than empty, unlike the .38, which when loaded feels like it doubles the weight. I can carry the 351 with clothes I cannot carry any other of my guns in.

But if I were to do it again, I probably would get the 43c, just for ammo cost and availability. But it is not a big enough factor for me to replace it.

[JAD]

I generally support the position of doc Roberts:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

380 is inadequate to the task of self defense. .38 special is barely acceptable as a BUG or NPE. Anything smaller is a poor choice, particularly if a weapon chambered in .38 having the same (exact) form factor is available.

.32 and .22 don’t have a seat at the table.

[gato naranja]

This puts me in mind of an old article about the .410 being useful for two kinds of people: those with very low recoil tolerance and those who are genuine experts with the shotgun.

Someone I shoot with who has used both .38 Spl and .22 Mag on various critters over a number of years - and whose ballistic opinions I pay attention to - does not use the .22 Magnum in a CCW role because he considers it to be too dependent on perfect shot placement.

My own more limited use of .22 Magnum would buttress his conclusion.

I think that if I end my shooting days so stove-up that I can't even tolerate .38 wadcutters, I will probably skip the .22 Mag and take the plunge straight to .22 LR, trading the lower power for higher capacity.

[JHC]

A new Federal .22 LR load that gets to magnum velocity from a 2" barrel albeit by skinnying down to 29 grains; a solid flat point. I think the mousegun defense loads should emphasize solids and stop trying to chase expansion. However it's not clear to me this penetrates much more than conventional .22LR

https://www.guns.com/news/2021/04/15/new-federal-22lr-punch-personal-defense?utm_source=carbon_media&utm_medium=native_content&utm_campaign=federal_22lr&utm_term=q2_2021&utm_content=federal_22lr&.com


70546

[SiriusBlunder]

I generally support the position of doc Roberts:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

380 is inadequate to the task of self defense. .38 special is barely acceptable as a BUG or NPE. Anything smaller is a poor choice, particularly if a weapon chambered in .38 having the same (exact) form factor is available.

.32 and .22 don’t have a seat at the table.

I'm curious if you realize that post you linked is a collection of posts written before 2012; DocGKR has weighed in on NPE/BUG selection since then. Have you read any of those more recent posts? The introduction of the G42 has changed things since it is both reliable and shootable. I interpreted reliability/shootability were the biggest drawback to a .380 NPE/BUG pre G42 as the terminal ballistics of .38 snub w/target wadcutters & .380 ball are both marginal through barriers.

The way I interpret what DocGKR has posted more recently: 9mm or better is still recommended for NPE/BUG, but for whatever reason, if a 9mm or better is not an option, the floor is a .38 snub with target wadcutters or G42 with appropriate ammo.

DocGKR in 2018 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26401-I-have-always-despised-the-380-but&p=742073&viewfull=1#post742073):


While I would far prefer a 9 mm, a .380 FMJ in a G42 would be my bottom line minimum defensive handgun, given that having a firearm available is always a better option than not having one when tragically involved in an unexpected lethal force encounter.

Additional:


In the past, lot's of .380 pistols have had reliability and functional issues, especially after being carried in a pocket full of lint or on an ankle--in those scenarios, a lightweight J-frame was a better option.

For a dedicated BUG and for folks that cannot handle the recoil or operation of .38 or 9 mm, a G42 shooting ball (including Lehigh XP) is acceptable; a poorly expanding .380 JHP like XTP or Hydra Shok will also work.


The .38 wadcutter will cut a larger diameter wound track than a .380 FMJ; the revolver can be fired from a pocket, but the G42 is typically easier to shoot and more rapidly reloads--call it a wash. Other less reliable and harder to shoot .380's don't match a J-frame--as always, YMMV...


But Rule 1 applies—having a .380 Auto beats not having a firearm. So if a sub-compact .380 is what you must go with due to size issues or limitations on limb function, so be it. Just make sure your .380 Auto handgun is reliable.

[Hambo]

Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
Let me flip the question. Rimfire advocates keep asking "when did terminal ballistics matter..." in both threads, this one and the 2011 one. Fine. When did capacity matter in the same situation? When did 5 rounds of .38 fail to work when an additional few rounds of rimfire would have saved the day?

Most random attacker, the vast majority in fact, are not dedicated to the assault. Stipulated. Then what does an extra 3, or 50, rounds get you? They ran at the first sign of the draw, they ran at the first sound of gunfire, they ran at the first injury. I've often said that based on my stats you can win about 1/3 of these encounters with a starter pistol.

The problem is the dedicated attacker or the attacker who *can't* flee. He's cornered in the business, etc. and has to shoot his way out. He's high and doesn't realize what's going on and just continues his actions (people have been shot and INGORED THE SHOOTER TO CONTINUE THEIR "MISSION", particularly the violently mentally ill) Maybe you're such a fantastic shooter that you can, on demand and under fight or flight response, ear canal/eye socket shot the bad guy. But most of us aren't, and most of the people who read this aren't, and most of the people we recommend guns to aren't. Hence I want a gun that can break bones because I get that I might not have a head shot available even if I can make those shots on demand. I might have to shoot someone in the back and their spine or back of the skull is my best target while they are murdering someone else. I might have to shoot at a shin from under a car or a forearm that's sticking around a corner because that's all the target I have of someone actively murdering others or trying to murder me. Center mass is center of whatever the target is. Neither a .38 nor a .22 is likely to kill via an extremity injury, but which degrades the opponent's ability to fight more, a small hole through the meat, or a small hole through the meat and a broken bone?

How many bad guys flee but fire a shot or two as they leave? I'm not in front of my stats, but more than zero. From memory, maybe 15%-ish. Want to roll the dice? You put them to flight, it's un-aimed fire and you're *probably* not going to get hit. How much degradation of their ability to fire those shots would you like if your life and/or the people you are protecting's life is up to the random chance of where those bullets go.

It's in the "better than nothing" and "more likely to work then not" camp if you are not the target of a dedicated attacker. However the supposed benefit of extra capacity is much less likely to be useful in a real world fight then the ability to degrade an opponent via crippling injury that a .38/.380 + can provide.

The .22 is for people who are physically incapable of shooting larger calibers. Severe arthritis has set in and it's painful and flinch inducing to shoot something else. Tendons are damaged and the hand is impaired to the point recoil is physically damaging to the shooter. Etc.

When I was a kid, I was a wannabe groundhog assassin armed with a .22. I never went pro because those little bastards absorbed 40gr bullets like sponges. I'm sure that colors my feelings on trying to stop humans with .22. Still, at some point you just have to say, "I wouldn't do that" and let people follow their own path.