Glock pistols, shooter mass, and reliability

[GJM]

My wife and I recently got FDE Generation 3, Glock 17's to add to our Glock supply.

My FDE 17 is 1,500 +/- rounds so far without a single stoppage. As I reported in the Glock/M&P/P30 thread, my wife's FDE 17 has been incredibly unreliable. With our normal practice ammo, Aguila 124 ball which shoots clean and accurate in virtually everything, she gets a stoppage every other magazine. With PMC 115, she gets a stoppage almost every shot. With Federal AE 115 ball, she gets a stoppage every 50 or 100 rounds. Shooting one hand only, the stoppages are even worse, and standing behind her, I see rounds ejecting about 1/3 right, 1/3 straight back over her head, and the last 1/3 to her left. I switched extractors with a RTF 17, pre 2010, and it did not significantly cure the reliability problems. Virtually every other 17, 19 and 26 she has runs reliably.

At the end of our session today, I fired some rounds through her pistol and had no stoppages. She weighs 118, and I weigh 163. It occurred to me that her lesser mass relative to me, may be contributing to the stoppages -- especially with a pistol that is borderline as to reliability. Does this make sense?

As a secondary question, if she was to carry a Glock 9mm model/ammo combination that would be most likely to be reliable under the most adverse conditions, what would that be? For example, would a Glock 19 with less slide mass, combined with 124 +P or 127 +P+ ammo be most likely to be reliable with a bad grip, one hand or with a dirty pistol.

[JHC]

I have seen more experienced folk than I report that 124 gr +P provides an extra margin I of reliability. It seems so to me also. I think that would be an optimal combo.

Re mass - as you prob know Randy Lee observed some of the opposite correlation when working on a Gen 4. He could shoot it reliably (approx 165 lbs) whereas a big guy with him (230? or so) had a consistent problems.

OTOH I saw a new shooter with a new Gen 4 19 having every mag cycling problems and I asked him about his pistol and shooting. He said he was holding it like a feather and I asked him to grip it like a firm handshake and he rattled off 200 trouble free rounds after that. I try not to believe in "limp wristing" (which may actually be gripping vs wrist) but then I see something like that and say hmmmmmm.

[YVK]

At the end of our session today, I fired some rounds through her pistol and had no stoppages. She weighs 118, and I weigh 163. It occurred to me that her lesser mass relative to me, may be contributing to the stoppages -- especially with a pistol that is borderline as to reliability. Does this make sense?
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In your particular case I am skeptical. She is not an inexperienced shooter, to put it mildly. She earned intermediate at Rogers effectively shooting multiple transitions with a very short par time - I don't think she could've done it without putting her body mass into it.

Have her shoot Bill Drill or similar with a Walther or MP.

[CCT125US]

I agree with YVK on this one. She is certainly not your average shooter. I would in effect "blame the gun". I probably weigh 118 with a backpack full of lead, and outside of a sluggish rental Kahr PM9 have never had an issue. While mass is important to recoil management, it can be overcome to an extent by technique. But as far as needed to cylcle a Glock, mass should not matter in this case.

[JodyH]

My 9 year old who weighs 65# shoots my Gen2 17 with no malfunctions.
He only shoots around 50 rounds in a range session right now due to fatigue issues, but the pistol runs like a sewing machine.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

[SecondsCount]

I see about a 50/50 success rate with ladies shooting 9mm Glocks. I have witnessed it with HKP30s as well.
Even though your wife is a good shooter, the lower mass in her hands and arms combined with a tolerance issue are a recipe for malfunctions. I would try a lower recoil spring rate.

[TCinVA]

9mm Glocks tend to choke more when being fed weak 9mm ball ammo by individuals who lack the upper body strength to get a really solid grip. Whether that's what's happening here or not is difficult to tell over the internet.

[GJM]

It is confounding.

On one hand, she doesn't have reliability issues with her other Glocks in 9, 40 and 10. She shoots a modern ISO. While lightweight, she is a strong girl. In years past she was the New England NORBA mountain bike champion, best woman rock climber in CT, able to climb 5.12, rip off 35 finger tip pull ups, do one arm pull ups, and bench over her body weight. She still packs 80 pound packs when we are moose and elk hunting. On the other hand, when she shoots either of my two Kahr PM-9's, that run for me, she gets a stoppage every magazine, and obviously has stoppages, especially one hand, with this newest 17, that superficially runs for me.

I am working with a friend in Smyrna to try to get this 17 running for her. I do believe, as said above, that something about her mass/grip combined with a min spec reliability pistol is causing a problem. What is interesting/concerning, is that what is happening with this 17, may result in an erosion into the reliability envelope of the Glock, potentially rearing its head at an inopportune time with her carry pistols. So if a person wanted to try to recover that reliability margin, would they do some or all of the following:

1) Shoot +P 9mm, rather than standard pressure, carry ammo?

2) Change from the factory recoil spring to a lighter weight spring, and if so what brand and weight?

3) Choose a model like the 19 for more slide velocity/less slide weight?

Anything else?

[ToddG]

"Limp wristing" is a misnomer. What actually causes the problem often associated with "limp wristing" is allowing the frame of the gun to move backwards (or in some cases, actually pulling it backwards) during the recoil cycle. This obviously screws up the slide's timing and often causes the slide either to short-stroke or move forward with less momentum than necessary.

As a test, have MrsGJM purposely tense the muscles in her hands, upper & lower arms and chest. Then rip through a magazine or two with the offending gun. Unless you see her doing something uncharacteristic like flinching or rocking backwards with each shot, she shouldn't be the cause of any stoppages you experience. If the gun works fine when she's all tensed up, she can work on finding a more natural relaxed compromise that still gives the frame enough resistance in recoil.

[farscott]

If the OP's experience follows mine, the offending pistol will get worse as it runs more. I have two recent (September and October of 2011 based on fired cases) Gen 3 Glock 19s that have dented my confidence in the current guns. In the beginning, one of them ran, and the other would have a stoppage every few magazines. I sent the offending one back to Glock, it came back with a new ejector, and it would not run with 115-grain WWB while the other one did. As the round counts climbed, the offending gun increased the stoppage rate even with higher-powered ammo, and the "good" gun had some stoppages. I shot the guns alongside two Gen 2 G17s using the ammo from the same lot (115-grain WWB and 147-grain Golden Saber), and the older guns experienced no stoppages.

The two G19s have been back to Glock twice (making it the third trip for the "bad" gun) with no apparent effect. The guns were shipped with the 336 ejector and now both have the 30274 ejector. They both have the extractor with the "dip", and the extractors feel as if they are free to pivot within the slide. Neither is reliable enough for carry.

For now, I have decided to shelve the G19s, am carrying the two 2nd Generation G17s, and am considering adopting my wife's platform, the P30.

[TCinVA]

As a test, have MrsGJM purposely tense the muscles in her hands, upper & lower arms and chest.


While I'm not an expert in teaching women to shoot, I have done some fairly basic instruction with a number of smaller females and getting the message across that she shouldn't be attempting to control the pistol with her hands but instead should be using her entire upper body seems to be helpful in getting them better results. The smaller the female the more important the details of her technique becomes. If you watch top ladies shoot you'll often see excellent form out of them where top males might get away with brute force.

[LSP972]

My wife experienced this issue when she "traded up" to .40 S&W. She had been shooting her 9mm P2000s with no problems, using a variety of factory ammunition and my reloads.

Using my "standard" .40 practice reload with 165gr bullets and WST powder (which performs flawlessly when I shoot them in my USPc .40 or USPf .40) in her two new .40 P2000 pistols, she began experiencing failures to eject pretty regularly. I went up two tenths of a grain on the powder charge, and the problem disappeared. Never a burp with factory ammunition, from el cheapo Wally World ball to HST

FWIW, she never had a problem with any type of ammunition when she was shooting her fairly old G26s or my old G19s. Personally, I think it is the guns, OP. There are simply too many examples of otherwise competent shooters having reliability issues with recent-production Glocks... the fan boys will never waver, but for those of us with some objectivity (and experience with other "platforms"), it will be a long time before we trust a new Glock again.

Hell, for that matter, I had a trigger spring break on a 2007 vintage G19 Saturday. I know this gun; I was there when it was purchased NIB, I was there for its initial (and only, prior to Saturday) range session of less than 200 rounds, and know that it has been a safe queen since. I put two magazines through it, and surprise!

I put an olive NY spring and "minus" OEM connector in it, so it should be GTG. But I certainly do not like the resulting trigger.

Yes, probably an anomaly. But the seed of doubt is there now.

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[pangloss]

GJM, you said that you fired your wife's FDE G17 and experienced no problems. Has she fired your FDE G17? If so, how did it work for her? It seems one possible "fix" might be simply to trade pistols. You could also swap parts between the two pistols to try to better determine the source of the problem.

[GJM]

I shot my wife's 17 some, and did not experience the almost continual stoppages she did, but certainly didn't shoot it enough to call it reliable for me. With unlimited time, patience and ammo, I might start switching parts. However, since she has a stack of 9mm Glock pistols that run reliably, and my FDE 17 has been 100 per cent reliable thru 1,500 rounds, I am not inclined to start messing with my pistol, or spend time that my wife and I could otherwise be shooting drills to investigate this too much more.

I am inclined to try the new extractor I am getting, possibly the new Gen 4 ejector, and if that doesn't work -- the Apex extractor. If none of those work, the pistol will get replaced by Glock or head down the road.

[pangloss]

Hopefully the parts you listed will fix things.

[GJM]

Dropped in the Gen 4 five digit ejector and a new extractor I bought from Brownell's, and today, my wife got to shoot her FDE 17 for the first time since the parts change. Short session, in which she fired 150 rounds, but no stoppages. Big change and hope this continues.

[Dagga Boy]

I weigh as much as both of you combined, and my FDE Gen 3 G-19 is a total abortion of issues in regards to extraction and ejection. Wayne Dobbs is now shooting it as part of the Beta testing for Randy Lee using the APEX extractor. We are making progress. The lack of Glock acknowledging the issue, putting forth the effort to fix (if Randy Lee can figure it out, Glock should have been able to), and still gleefully selling a pistol with a known issue to L/E and civilians alike is what got me shooting a HK P-30. I still have a bunch of older Glocks that run, but I will never buy a new one from them again.

[GJM]

Sounds like your FDE 19 is very frustrating. My FDE 17 has had not a single stoppage or issue of any kind in approaching 2,000 rounds, but between your FDE 19, my wife's new FDE 17, and the experience of others, the time when you could basically assume a Glock to be reliable out of the box appears to have passed for now. I would never have bought a current manufacture Gen 3 9, except I was a sucker for the FDE.

If the Apex extractor were shipping now, I would stick one, and probably a five digit ejector in every Glock 9 I have. Hopefully Glock gets a handle on this soon, as the product should become more reliable over time, not less reliable.

I am in the middle of a year dedicated to shooting Glock pistols, and that isn't over until at least March. If I do change then, it will likely be for a P30, and I have a few of them sitting ready to go. Since I now manipulate the Glock trigger in one continuous motion, like a revolver, I am optimistic I can improve my LEM shooting using the same technique.

[Chuck Haggard]

I weigh as much as both of you combined, and my FDE Gen 3 G-19 is a total abortion of issues in regards to extraction and ejection. Wayne Dobbs is now shooting it as part of the Beta testing for Randy Lee using the APEX extractor. We are making progress. The lack of Glock acknowledging the issue, putting forth the effort to fix (if Randy Lee can figure it out, Glock should have been able to), and still gleefully selling a pistol with a known issue to L/E and civilians alike is what got me shooting a HK P-30. I still have a bunch of older Glocks that run, but I will never buy a new one from them again.

Randy doesn't have a giant ego blocking his vision and thus ability to see the problem/s.

Just sayin.

[jkm]

I wouldn't waste any time on a gun that doesn't run. I'd never be comfortable carrying a gun I had to 'modify' to make reliable. It should work right off of the shelf. If it doesn't, I'd get rid of it. In your wife's case, she already has guns that run reliably, so why mess around with a junker....

[GJM]

I wouldn't waste any time on a gun that doesn't run. I'd never be comfortable carrying a gun I had to 'modify' to make reliable. It should work right off of the shelf. If it doesn't, I'd get rid of it. In your wife's case, she already has guns that run reliably, so why mess around with a junker....

Like I said, we are suckers for FDE. She shoots enough, and has enough 17's, that this one will go into her shooter gun pile, which is different than her carry gun pile (of which the carry guns get shot enough to be proven reliable, and then carried a lot, and shot sparingly). An added benefit is the Glock is simple enough I can work on them, and I enjoy having a fishing lure box full of parts that allow me to tinker with them, without needing a gunsmith like I do with most other handguns.

If your standard is to never carry a gun that needs to be modified to work reliably, I can assume you aren't a 1911 guy. :)

[jkm]

You Sir, assumed correctly! I've had a couple, but never kept a gun that choked. Good onya for having the skill and patience required for making a gun run, if it doesn't already.

[GJM]

She put another 200 rounds thru it today, all fine, then two stoppages with the Aguila 124 ball in the last 50 rounds.

[LSP972]

I still have a bunch of older Glocks that run, but I will never buy a new one from them again.

My sentiments, exactly.

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