RFI: Ready to upgrade free-float handguards

[dogcaller]

I have two uppers with handguards I'd like to upgrade and I have a few questions... I realize I could get plenty of input from ARFCOM, but I always prefer to start here when possible. The variety of options is pretty staggering, so I'm going to start with my desired end-state and some bigger picture questions.

Here are the uppers:

70282
My buddy borrowed it once and named it "The Ghost." It's a 16" with a fluted bbl and quad-rail cheese-graters and a flip-up front sight. My recollection is that it was built by BCM.





70284.
This is a ban-era Wilson Combat 18" upper. It has a short aluminum free-floated handguard.


Weight is a factor, I would like to keep weight down--actually, I'd prefer to shave a little weight, if possible. I'd like to have relatively smooth lines and form factor. I don't anticipate hanging much from the rail. I would like to have a sling attachment option and potentially a light on my 16" and a sling and bipod attachment option on the 18." I prefer the slings be of the style that can be used "patrol ready" as opposed to just a carrying strap. I'd like to keep the BUIS option available on The Ghost. I'd rather not have a full-length Picatinny on top, if possible. The Ghost will have a Steiner P4xi mounted in a lightweight Larue. The Wilson sometimes wears a Romeo red dot, and sometimes wears a 3-9x40 (as a back-up prarie dog rifle). Both are used for general purposes: carbine classes, coyote hunting, zombie apocalypse duty, perhaps someday a 2-gun competition, etc. I've never been trained in or used the C-clamp hold, but it does seem to be the rage, and I'm open to it, if that matters.

My understanding is that for things like bipods I will need to use aluminum, but polymer or fiberglass is an option if not attaching anything load-bearing. Is this accurate? What about with sling attachments? It also seems that M-Lock won the attachment-system wars, so I assume I should go with that.

I'm not much of a gun plumber. I've never built a complete AR and I don't plan to do the work myself. I have been watching some videos, and while I believe I could do it, I'm not sure the purchase of the tools and equipment I would need, plus the inevitable (for me) headache of "no easy project" is worth it. These uppers run great and are quite accurate--I'd like to keep it that way.

Am I headed in the right direction? Do you happen to have suggestions that might fill the bill?

Thanks!

[HCM]

I have two uppers with handguards I'd like to upgrade and I have a few questions... I realize I could get plenty of input from ARFCOM, but I always prefer to start here when possible. The variety of options is pretty staggering, so I'm going to start with my desired end-state and some bigger picture questions.

Here are the uppers:

70282
My buddy borrowed it once and named it "The Ghost." It's a 16" with a fluted bbl and quad-rail cheese-graters and a flip-up front sight. My recollection is that it was built by BCM.





70284.
This is a ban-era Wilson Combat 18" upper. It has a short aluminum free-floated handguard.


Weight is a factor, I would like to keep weight down--actually, I'd prefer to shave a little weight, if possible. I'd like to have relatively smooth lines and form factor. I don't anticipate hanging much from the rail. I would like to have a sling attachment option and potentially a light on my 16" and a sling and bipod attachment option on the 18." I prefer the slings be of the style that can be used "patrol ready" as opposed to just a carrying strap. I'd like to keep the BUIS option available on The Ghost. I'd rather not have a full-length Picatinny on top, if possible. The Ghost will have a Steiner P4xi mounted in a lightweight Larue. The Wilson sometimes wears a Romeo red dot, and sometimes wears a 3-9x40 (as a back-up prarie dog rifle). Both are used for general purposes: carbine classes, coyote hunting, zombie apocalypse duty, perhaps someday a 2-gun competition, etc. I've never been trained in or used the C-clamp hold, but it does seem to be the rage, and I'm open to it, if that matters.

My understanding is that for things like bipods I will need to use aluminum, but polymer or fiberglass is an option if not attaching anything load-bearing. Is this accurate? What about with sling attachments? It also seems that M-Lock won the attachment-system wars, so I assume I should go with that.

I'm not much of a gun plumber. I've never built a complete AR and I don't plan to do the work myself. I have been watching some videos, and while I believe I could do it, I'm not sure the purchase of the tools and equipment I would need, plus the inevitable (for me) headache of "no easy project" is worth it. These uppers run great and are quite accurate--I'd like to keep it that way.

Am I headed in the right direction? Do you happen to have suggestions that might fill the bill?

Thanks!

Your assumption that non metal rails can’t take load from a bipod is incorrect. It depends on the rail. For example the original PRI rails for the Mk 12 were non metal. It depends on the quality of the rail and your use.

If you are farming the work out I would take the opportunity to have the 18” barrel threaded.

Your 16” will likely need a new gas block.

So do you want 1913 rails or Mlok ?

I’ve had good experiences with:

Daniel defense
ZEV/ Mega Wedgelok - this includes the ZEV/mega/SOLGW, TriArc, FN and Hodge versions - all of which are made by ZEV/Mega under license from Hodge
Geissele
ALG
KAC
BCM - though these have the most flex and might not be optimal for bipod use.

ALG is going to be the best value

Geissele has deals on Blemish rails

https://geissele.com/count-blemula-s-castle.html

[theJanitor]

Your assumption that non metal rails can’t take load from a bipod is incorrect. It depends on the rail. For example the original PRI rails for the Mk 12 were non metal. It depends on the quality of the rail and your use.


And we've even seen the much heralded RIS2 socom rail have the lower, removable rail section bend under the force of the bipod.

[DDTSGM]

Unless the rail you decide on uses the original barrel nut - a possibility on the bottom rile - you are going to need to remove the gas blocks. If either of them are aluminum you may want to replace them with either carbon steel or stainless gas blocks.

ALG is probably one of the most inexpensive good quality rail you are going to find, the problem being they are often out of stock.

Another option is the LaRue LAT or SAT handguards (I prefer the LAT) they cost $10.00 an inch from 7 to 13.2 inches. They are also generally not in stock, it took me several months to get my 13.2" LAT.

https://www.larue.com/products/larue-lokpicatinny-handguards/

https://www.larue.com/products/larue-slickpicatinny-handguards/

[ViniVidivici]

One cool thing about VTAC rails is they use the existing barrel nut. Have them on 2 guns, they're great.

[Tokarev]

One cool thing about VTAC rails is they use the existing barrel nut. Have them on 2 guns, they're great.VTAC's offerings have dwindled to pretty much slings and a few sling accessories. I don't see his rails listed on the website at all.

Anyway, a couple options for those not wanting to change the barrel nut are the SOCC rail from Troy and the C4 from Centurion.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[LJP]

I am a huge fan of Centurion Arms rails. They have options that mount to the factory barrel nut or their own proprietary system. These days, I would choose an MLOK option. That way, you can run it slick or attach whatever you want. I have Centurion Rails on multiple guns and the only thing I might change would be to upgrade to MLOK rails vs the quad rails that I have now.

[Brian T]

I enjoy the SLR rails I have on a few of my rifles. All of them have pic rail on top, but I know they make version without.

[randyho]

I am a huge fan of Centurion Arms rails. They have options that mount to the factory barrel nut or their own proprietary system. These days, I would choose an MLOK option. That way, you can run it slick or attach whatever you want. I have Centurion Rails on multiple guns and the only thing I might change would be to upgrade to MLOK rails vs the quad rails that I have now.
+ another for Centurion's. They are two piece and don't require removal of the gas block.

[schüler]

Longer rail systems provide longer iron sight radius, no barrel shadowing with white light and better stability possibilities offhand and w/bipod. Bipod is more and more stable the further forward you go; go as far forward as your rail can stay rigid.

Pinned gas blocks are arguably most reliable. If yours are pinned you can usually cut/grind the block down enough to slide on a rail compatible with your barrel nut. Usually without having to remove gas block if you find a rail compatible with the existing barrel nut.

If your gas blocks are set screw style... then mark for proper position w/r to gas port before removing or when installing. Some gas blocks are/were meant to allow space for drop-in handguard ring. When installing a set screw block I dimple barrel (with drill) where set screws locate, use red loctite and stake the screws with a punch.

That said,

Ghost: If the rifle will be shot offhand w/o marksman style sling use and you want to keep flip up front sight... A rail replacement doesnt offer much more than improved ergonomics, i.e., easier to wrap hand around with use of foregrip or handstop, barricade stop. If it were me I'd go with a light rail 13.5-15", lose the flip gas block.q

Wilson stand in for yotes: Yes, free float that girl. Longest rigid rail you can afford.

For carbines shot offhand I have been using Bootleg rails (cheapest, has non-GI barrel nut in kit) or a Fortis Rev 2 (mounts to standard GI barrel nut) since they are light weight. Not most rigid.

For rigid options Geissele & Larue ain't dummies even if Larue butts heads like a dummy, tho Geissele rails offerings intentionally range from rigid to lightweight. Do homework.

Be wary of older ALG models, rail may have non-continuous 12 oclock rail but non-MLok slots even though it may appear like MLok.

I have come to prefer continuous 12'o rail on all rails for accessory mount options like TLR RM in front of offset iron, two old school Vik Tac light mounts for a long-boy 1" barrel thrower light, etc.

If you've ever burned through a few several mags you know how beautiful a shielded handguard is, MOE SL is da bomb... rails aint always the answer, especially for a short range build. Love IWC's mount-n-slot light mounts for MOE handguards.

Sent from my VS835 using Tapatalk

[HCM]

I am a huge fan of Centurion Arms rails. They have options that mount to the factory barrel nut or their own proprietary system. These days, I would choose an MLOK option. That way, you can run it slick or attach whatever you want. I have Centurion Rails on multiple guns and the only thing I might change would be to upgrade to MLOK rails vs the quad rails that I have now.


+ another for Centurion's. They are two piece and don't require removal of the gas block.

To clarify, Many centurion rails use the standard GI type barrel nut, however, the rails the OP has on his rifles may, or may not use a standard GI type barrel nut. My guess from looking at them is they do not use GI barrel nuts.

Also the flip up front sight gas block on the OP's 16" rifle would need to be swapped out or modified to fit under the rails.

[M2CattleCo]

There’s a ton of good options out there for continuous top rail but not too many for keeping the flip front sight/gas block.

If you really want to keep that, the only thing I would consider is a 12” Centurion C4 with the cutout for the front sight. It uses a stock/gi barrel nut which are easily found (I’ll give you one if you need one:D).

You may need to trim the gas block around top on the 18” to fit under a rail, but that’s not a big deal at all.

The absolute best rail for using a bipod , IMO, is a LaRue because it attaches like a union while most everything else attaches like a hose clamp. The second best and likely 100% good enough would be a Geissele MK8. Super tough and a LOT easier to install.

[mmc45414]

Another option is the LaRue LAT or SAT handguards (I prefer the LAT) they cost $10.00 an inch from 7 to 13.2 inches. They are also generally not in stock, it took me several months to get my 13.2" LAT.
I also recently (quarantine furlough project...) went all fan boy for the LAT. I had the four sided cheese grater LaRue for years and wanted to lose some weight. I ended up with 10" on my 9mm and 300BO, and 11" on my mid length 5.56, and now have a 13.2" on order for my 18" sort of game gun. I like the attachment scheme and I think they are a bargain. They have the rail all along the top, but they are pretty svelte overall. As Dan mentioned, they likely build a batch, sell them all, then put them back in the production queue. It will either be a few days or a few months (my first one I ordered Oct 1st and got it in the middle of Feb), but they do not charge until it ships. Who knows how long my current order for the 13.2" will sit out there (NBD, that gun is wearing the 12" cheese grater version so no rush), but if they have the size you want sitting there it will ship out.

Here is a pic of my 300BO with the 10" LAT (I used the green Magpul stuff to help flag it as my 300BO):

70409

[mmc45414]

They are also generally not in stock, it took me several months to get my 13.2" LAT.

I also recently (quarantine furlough project...) went all fan boy for the LAT. I had the four sided cheese grater LaRue for years and wanted to lose some weight. I ended up with 10" on my 9mm and 300BO, and 11" on my mid length 5.56, and now have a 13.2" on order for my 18" sort of game gun.
Bumping this necro thread and quoting myself because, no shit, I just got a shipping notice for the 13.2 LAT I order at the end of March, last year...

[awp_101]

Bumping this necro thread and quoting myself because, no shit, I just got a shipping notice for the 13.2 LAT I order at the end of March, last year...

Better late than never, right? :D

[HCM]

Better late than never, right? :D

You mean better LAT than never?

[awp_101]

You mean better LAT than never?

91598

[mmc45414]

Better late than never, right? :D

You mean better LAT than never?
Tip your server!

I did call them in March when the order had a birthday, just to make sure everything was correct with the order. I was nice about it and the gal I spoke with was friendly and helpful, but when I mentioned it had been a year she didn't act like that was something unusual.

As I mentioned, the only reason I need/want this is to be consistent with the other three (9mm, 223, 300BO) with the LAT. I do think they are nice, and a bargain. Now I can stack them all together and post a picture in the Long Guns Gallery thread. :cool:

[dogcaller]

Many thanks for all the help. I still haven’t “pulled the trigger “ on this, but want to. I’m looking for improved ergonomics and form-factor on both uppers. I do not anticipate adding optics or other alignment-critical accessories to the hand guard, so the continuous 12 o’clock rail is not a factor. Aero makes the hand guard it’s rails at 12 and 6 at the forward end—does anyone else? What is the Aero reputation?

I’d love to keep that flip-up front on The Ghost, and lose the 4-sided cheese grater, if possible…. What are options…?

Someone recommended having the Wilson tapped for a flash hider/muzzle device. What would be the real advantage?

[Wake27]

Many thanks for all the help. I still haven’t “pulled the trigger “ on this, but want to. I’m looking for improved ergonomics and form-factor on both uppers. I do not anticipate adding optics or other alignment-critical accessories to the hand guard, so the continuous 12 o’clock rail is not a factor. Aero makes the hand guard it’s rails at 12 and 6 at the forward end—does anyone else? What is the Aero reputation?

I’d love to keep that flip-up front on The Ghost, and lose the 4-sided cheese grater, if possible…. What are options…?

Someone recommended having the Wilson tapped for a flash hider/muzzle device. What would be the real advantage?

I’ve never seen BCM use a barrel like that, though it’s possible in their very early days I guess. Easy button is to buy two BCM MCMRs and send both to John Thomas at Retro Arms Works.

Is there a reason you don’t want a pic rail on top?

Putting a muzzle device on the Wilson will probably go a long ways to minimizing flash and/or recoil depending what you use. I’d absolutely get it done since you’ll probably be sending it off anyways.

ETA - depending on where you are in CO, d. wilson is in Denver and another solid AR smith.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[dogcaller]

I’ve never seen BCM use a barrel like that, though it’s possible in their very early days I guess. Easy button is to buy two BCM MCMRs and send both to John Thomas at Retro Arms Works.

Is there a reason you don’t want a pic rail on top?

Putting a muzzle device on the Wilson will probably go a long ways to minimizing flash and/or recoil depending what you use. I’d absolutely get it done since you’ll probably be sending it off anyways.

ETA - depending on where you are in CO, d. wilson is in Denver and another solid AR smith.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thanks, Wake. Not opposed to the pic rail on top, was just thinking it might save weight to not have it, but there don’t seem to be many options. Not a big deal. Thanks for the tip to D. Wilson. Will likely use him.

[Wake27]

Thanks, Wake. Not opposed to the pic rail on top, was just thinking it might save weight to not have it, but there don’t seem to be many options. Not a big deal. Thanks for the tip to D. Wilson. Will likely use him.

Yeah there are other ways to save weight which are more common and probably better. I went to Dave several times when I lived in the Springs and he's a solid dude that does great work.

[Sig_Fiend]

I'd strongly recommend ditching the flip up sight gas block on the 16". It significantly limits your options. I'm guessing it's a YHM gas block? If so, I believe those weigh around 5oz (for some models, YHM shows ~5.24). If switching to something more modern, like say a pinned Geissele gas block (https://geissele.com/super-gas-block-black.html), you'd probably save up to ~3.6oz.

As far as rails, there are quite a few on the market that don't have full length rails at 12:00 and only have a rail at the last few inches. They are harder to find, especially due to lack of a standard or consistently used term for this layout. Here's a few:


CMT UHPR MOD 1 HDX (https://www.cmttac.com/ar15-rails)
SLR HDX (https://slrrifleworks.com/hand-guards/5-56-handguards/hdx-series/) (A mix of full length and partial rail versions on this page)
Fortis Switch MOD 2 (https://fortismfg.com/rails?applyfilter=Z%2BHEITAH5ij4s1g0IKgJUvWLYg8C8t tknbyQMRblazW6aHUMuXv3wsuyvSxAiusbUrWc2EI3Opj6%0D% 0AfVAzPrx%2FagGzbfvart%2B3t908MAlgEIJHak3otiuRbaPb hlPJnsjKPDcbboOuGGdPCBvsQKNuiA%3D%3D)
Samson SXT Lightweight (https://www.samson-mfg.com/sxt-lightweight-series.html)
F-1 H7M (https://f-1firearms.com/h7m-ar-15-ultra-lite-handguard/) (Currently only shows 14.3", but used to also come in 12.3" and 16.3". Not sure if they discontinued the others.)


Of those, I only have experience with the CMT and F-1 H7M rails. Both are extremely nice, light, and ergonomic. I particularly like how robust CMT's mounting method is for the rail (similar to SLR) plus the fact it has anti-rotation tabs. Considering CMT's barrel nut is shared among all of it's current 7 handguard lines, that also offers room for easy changes in the future should you so decide.

The F-1 H7M is super cool, very sleek, ridiculously light, and quite robust (only one on the list that's 7075 T6). That said, with the timed barrel nut and lack of anti-rotation tabs, I'd pick the CMT over this if you want something that's less hassle.

Another thing worth considering are the potential advantages in using the same handguard line for both guns, in different lengths. For example, the CMT UHPR MOD 1 HDX 13.7 on the 16" gun and either the 15.0 or 17.0 on the 18" gun. Same shared mounting system, no need for two different sets of special tools, same ergos. Later on, say you decide you want to experiment with the 18" gun and shooting from tripods (I'm just making stuff up). You might decide to jump on the ARCA rail craze, in which case you could swap out to the CMT DRT-A1 (https://www.cmttac.com/ARCA-SWISS?product_id=248), which you'd be able to do yourself without needing to mess with the barrel nut.

I hate to say it but, after a long period of time with ALG rails being sold out and nearly impossible to get, it appears Geissele has finally killed them off. As of ~Oct 24 of this year, or sometime between then and now, Geissele has taken the ALG website down and now redirects it to their site. While they're still selling some ALG parts, the handguards now appear to be gone. I and I know many others will be extremely displeased with this. The last few years, it feels like they've gone the way of LaRue (which I still like and also builds good products... when available), at least with certain products. I hope they bring those budget rails back at some point because they were probably the best-engineered budget rail there was.

Here's a few pics I have of one of those CMT rails (13.7 on a 16" with a Faxon Gunner barrel, Aero slick side upper, V7 AIR port door and rod, V7 Ti A2 flash hider not torqued yet as I just test fit everything on the upper):

97634

97635

97636

[HCM]

Thoughts for the OP:

1) The weight savings for no Picatinny 12 o'clock rail is minimal

2) ALG rails were great but are effectively dead. If you are considering a Geissele rail now (Black Friday Weekend Sale) is the time to grab one. G does other holiday sales but BF has the best discounts.

3) For your Wilson Upper WC has their own MLOK rails which are decent.

4) CMT rails are good, Primary Arms sells a rebranded CMT rail under PA's house brand "Expo Arms" All PA Expo Arms products are currently on sale for BF.

[mmc45414]

Not opposed to the pic rail on top, was just thinking it might save weight to not have it
It probably adds some rigidity also.

And thanks for bumping this, it caused me to think. I have new access to a couple places and will probably get back into deer hunting next season and will probably build a 20" upper in 350 Legend. Might be a good idea to go ahead and order that handguard I am going to want...

Also, if myself and others didn't scare you away from Larue, I think they really are a good value, you can always order one and if it doesn't ship in a week or so they are cooperative about canceling.

[dogcaller]

Lots of good info here, thanks, all. I’m planning to go with the 12” Larue for the Ghost and a Wilson tube for my WC upper. There are cheaper options, but they’re not terribly expensive. Buy once, cry once. I’m going to take the advice and ditch the flip-up front. Was going to buy the Larue gas block but it sounds like it might be proprietary to Larue barrels…. Anyone have an opinion on that?

Will probably send the WC back to them to install the hanguard and a flash suppressor. Thinking about having them take an inch off the barrel so the length stays approximately the same. Don’t really want to go longer.

[Wake27]

Lots of good info here, thanks, all. I’m planning to go with the 12” Larue for the Ghost and a Wilson tube for my WC upper. There are cheaper options, but they’re not terribly expensive. Buy once, cry once. I’m going to take the advice and ditch the flip-up front. Was going to buy the Larue gas block but it sounds like it might be proprietary to Larue barrels…. Anyone have an opinion on that?

Will probably send the WC back to them to install the hanguard and a flash suppressor. Thinking about having them take an inch off the barrel so the length stays approximately the same. Don’t really want to go longer.

Make sure you find the LAT in stock, lots of people wait a long time for Larue stuff to ship (no personal experience). I don't know about the compatibility, I glanced at it quickly and it's an odd design that I don't follow. I prefer the FCD or Badger (ultra low profile) but as always, BCM is an easy answer for quality and general purpose. I don't know what level WC will modify stuff, Dave definitely will chop a barrel if you need.

[mmc45414]

Another option is the LaRue LAT or SAT handguards (I prefer the LAT) they cost $10.00 an inch from 7 to 13.2 inches. They are also generally not in stock, it took me several months to get my 13.2" LAT.


And thanks for bumping this, it caused me to think. I have new access to a couple places and will probably get back into deer hunting next season and will probably build a 20" upper in 350 Legend. Might be a good idea to go ahead and order that handguard I am going to want...

And yesterday I did order a 350 Legend barrel, and was thinking about maybe putting another handguard on order, and after I sorta standardized on them they discontinued the damn things! Some mention on Arf that ML confirmed it on Insta, just streamlining the product mix. Some of the other things seem to have escalated in price, the scope mount I paid $140 for is now $400. Probably will not be getting another hat after this one wears out...