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DocGKR
07-15-2012, 06:53 PM
Recently I have received additional questions regarding by Greg Ellifritz's "An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power" (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866).

Fortunately the author clearly identifies the flaws with it in his text.

The important take away points are:

-- Lot's of people choose to stop (psychological incapacitation) rather than being forced to stop (physiological incapacitation) when shot with handguns.

-- All the service caliber handguns work about the same for unobstructed shots.

-- Head shots provide more effective rapid incapacitation than torso shots; both are better than peripheral hits.

-- Rifle and shotguns are more effective at stopping bad guys than handguns.

In essence, it fundamentally agrees with everything we have been saying for the past two decades...

orionz06
07-15-2012, 08:12 PM
Is he involved with the "one shot stop" guy?

ToddG
07-15-2012, 08:16 PM
In essence, it fundamentally agrees with everything we have been saying for the past two decades...

Funny how human anatomy and the laws of physics just seem to stay the same for decades at a time. :cool:

(but 357 SIG pwnz)

_JD_
07-15-2012, 09:08 PM
Is he involved with the "one shot stop" guy?

No, that's Marshall and Sanow.


Greg's an instructor with TDI in Ohio and pretty much a full time training officer for his department.


Greg Ellifritz is a 16-year veteran police officer, spending the last 11 years as the full-time tactical training officer for his central Ohio agency. In that position, he is responsible for developing and instructing all of the in-service training for a 57-officer police department. Prior to his training position, he served as patrol officer, bike patrol officer, precision marksman, and field training officer for his agency.

He has been an active instructor for the Tactical Defense Institute since 2001 and a lead instructor for TDI’s ground fighting, knife fighting, impact weapons, active shooter, and extreme close quarters shooting classes.

Greg holds instructor, master instructor, or armorer certifications in more than 75 different weapons systems, defensive tactics programs, and law enforcement specialty areas. In addition to these instructor certifications, Greg has trained with most of the leading firearms and edged weapons instructors in the country.

Greg has been an adjunct instructor for the Ohio Peace Officer’s Training Academy, teaching firearms, defensive tactics, bike patrol, knife defense and physical fitness topics. He has taught firearms and self defense classes at the national and international level through the International Association of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors, The American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers and Ohio Association of Chiefs of Police. He has a Master’s degree in Public Policy and Management and has written for several publications including: ‘The Firearms Instructor”, “Ohio Police Chief”, “Combat Handguns”, “Concealed Carry Magazine” and “The Journal of the American Women’s Self Defense Association”.

What my wife and I both like about Greg is that despite the list above, he is very approachable and easy to dialogue with regarding almost any topic related to self-defense. On top of being a physical fitness instructor Greg is also an avid foreign traveler, which brings a unique perspective regarding improvised weapons of opportunity. Greg also teaches Field Emergency Medicine.


He also speaks highly of Todd, so that makes him even more cool.


Regarding the comments of "In essence, it fundamentally agrees with everything we have been saying for the past two decades..."

Another way of saying it is that it confirms everything that's been said for the last two decades.

Nothing wrong with having additional supporting documentation and I think that Buckeye Firearms did a great job adding those graphs, the initial report didn't have that and for some, being able to look at the data represented in that manner makes a difference. Especially the charts on the "Failure to Incapacitate" an the stats on "Lethality"

orionz06
07-15-2012, 09:16 PM
Without having read it I assumed he was some guy out there with his own wild ass theories about how to quantify something that cannot be quantified.

Chuck Haggard
07-15-2012, 10:26 PM
Without having read it I assumed he was some guy out there with his own wild ass theories about how to quantify something that cannot be quantified.

Not exactly, he was just reporting on what is observed to have happened in shootings.

Tamara
07-30-2012, 07:05 AM
As it turns out, there are very few places on the Binkie Doll you can point at and say "If you hit him here with {Duty Grade JHP in Caliber A}, it'll drop him like a sack of potatoes, but if you hit him here with {Duty Grade JHP in Caliber B}, he'll just laugh it off and continue massacring nuns and orphans."

Chuck Haggard
07-30-2012, 12:44 PM
As it turns out, there are very few places on the Binkie Doll you can point at and say "If you hit him here with {Duty Grade JHP in Caliber A}, it'll drop him like a sack of potatoes, but if you hit him here with {Duty Grade JHP in Caliber B}, he'll just laugh it off and continue massacring nuns and orphans."

Indeed.

While I was at the 'Tactical Anatomy" course taught by Doc Williams I noted a lot of guys had the light bulb turn on to realize how little of the human body is a really a scoring zone for hits. Much of it is covered by the zero points ring.

DocGKR
07-30-2012, 01:02 PM
As I have stated before, I am frustrated at all the poor targets I am seeing in use by LE agencies for training and quals.

Anatomically, it is not too hard; if you want immediate incapacitation, then the CNS is the only reasonable target:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/77992-CNStargetside.jpg

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/77991-CNStargetfront.jpg

For delayed incapacitation, then high thoracic targeting of the heart and large vessels is the best option:

http://www.nakedscience.org/mrg/Anatomy%20Lecture%20Notes%20Unit%207%20Circulatory %20System%20-%20The%20Blood%20Vessels_files/image004.gif

The target below is STUPID to train with, as the "X" is in the wrong spot--it needs to be closer to where the upper "8 or 9" is at. Why would any trainer use that target? It is just going to reinforce shooting the WRONG anatomic location for rapid threat incapacitation. An LE agency using that defective target to train/qualify officers is setting itself up for liability issues...

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2712/at27full.jpg

It is easy to train correctly--to start, use targets that reinforce proper hit zones, for example, below is a FAR better option to practice getting shots to the proper incapacitation points:

http://www.letargets.com/images/mdfi.jpg

3x5" cards and 6" paper plates make great cheap targets for CNS and COM targeting, respectively...

Here is a target I use a lot that is reasonably accurate on what you need to hit and cheap to make: http://www.tridentconcepts.org...ach/162753243671.pdf (http://www.tridentconcepts.org/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/162753243671.pdf), just print it out on legal size paper and you are good to go.

VolGrad
07-30-2012, 01:21 PM
The target below is STUPID to train with, as the "X" is in the wrong spot--it needs to be closer to where the upper "8" is at. Bbbbbbut then all the circles wouldn't fit on the target. :p