Adam Toledo Shooting - Chicago, IL

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

I considered posting this in "Shooting incidents in the news", but given current events, I thought it might merit it's own thread:


Body camera footage released Thursday shows a Chicago police officer shooting a 13-year-old boy who appeared to have his hands up. The victim, identified as Adam Toledo, was killed on March 29.

"Hey, show me your fucking hands!" the officer yells as he chases the teen down an alley. Toledo complies and is then shot. "Look at me, look at me. You all right?" the officer says. Toledo was later pronounced dead.


Prosecutors initially suggested Toledo had a gun in his hand when the officer shot him, but the state's attorney's office walked that back today.

Body cam footage at the link:

https://reason.com/2021/04/15/adam-toledo-chicago-police-shooting-13-year-old-boy-hands-up/

EDIT: Other sources have slowed down the video, and are reporting that he seems to have pulled, and dropped a gun, before being shot:

https://policetribune.com/bodycam-shows-13-year-old-adam-toledo-pulled-gun-before-he-was-shot/?fbclid=IwAR18r76Eqw3WytbeoTxx5vqq6ITLNj1jq-d_AE6_Z-vPNaMkiaqWBZbIPiI

[Lex Luthier]

I considered posting this in "Shooting incidents in the news", but given current events, I thought it might merit it's own thread:





Body cam footage at the link:

https://reason.com/2021/04/15/adam-toledo-chicago-police-shooting-13-year-old-boy-hands-up/

EDIT: Other sources have slowed down the video, and are reporting that he seems to have pulled, and dropped a gun, before being shot:

https://policetribune.com/bodycam-shows-13-year-old-adam-toledo-pulled-gun-before-he-was-shot/?fbclid=IwAR18r76Eqw3WytbeoTxx5vqq6ITLNj1jq-d_AE6_Z-vPNaMkiaqWBZbIPiI

Oh, dear.

[Guerrero]

Oh, dear.

Going to be a long, hot summer, I predict.

[Coyotesfan97]

If you draw and raise a gun and the Officer sees it in your hand but you toss it out of sight, of his view and raise your hands in the microseconds that takes but he’s already made the decision to fire you’re probably getting shot. It’s horrible a 13 year old was shot. If he’d complied and not run with a gun he would’ve been released to Mom fairly quickly.

[RJ]

Obviously the solution is to defund and reimagine Policing in Chicago. I’m sure the residents feel safer already.

/sarc

[Kukuforguns]

If you draw and raise a gun and the Officer sees it in your hand but you toss it out of sight, of his view and raise your hands in the microseconds that takes but he’s already made the decision to fire you’re probably getting shot. It’s horrible a 13 year old was shot. If he’d complied and not run with a gun he would’ve been released to Mom fairly quickly.

There are (currently) two videos of the shooting. One from the officer's body worn camera and another from a security camera. https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/adam-toledo-video-footage-released-of-chicago-police-shooting-13-year-old/2487175/

Based on my viewing, it appears Toledo 1) dumped the gun, 2) turned, 3) raised his hands and then the officer shot. At the time he was turning and raising his hands, he did not have a gun in his hand. Watching the two videos leaves me with the distinct impression that significantly more than a microsecond was involved (probably around .75 second, it's kind of hard to tell since the video I'm reviewing cuts out just before the officer fired).

Watch the videos and make up your own mind.

[Tensaw]

If you draw and raise a gun and the Officer sees it in your hand but you toss it out of sight, of his view and raise your hands in the microseconds that takes but he’s already made the decision to fire you’re probably getting shot. It’s horrible a 13 year old was shot. If he’d complied and not run with a gun he would’ve been released to Mom fairly quickly.

As evidenced by the fact that the actual crook in this scenario did not run and was merely placed under arrest.

[45dotACP]

Guess this is what guys like Bolke mean when they talk about having a gun that you can stop shooting quickly.

I'd bet the realization that the kid was unarmed hit the officer like the noise of a gunshot. Especially when he was previously armed.

I don't see how the city won't burn for this. Shit.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

Guess this is what guys like Bolke mean when they talk about having a gun that you can stop shooting quickly.

I'd bet the realization that the kid was unarmed hit the officer like the noise of a gunshot. Especially when he was previously armed.

I don't see how the city won't burn for this. Shit.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Yep.

The kid dodges half inside the fence and tosses the gun. Turns hands up, gets shot.

Cop was already on the trigger and shot the kid.

You can see from another angle after the shooting the gun is 6-feet or so from the kid. The gun is on the pole side of the fence. From the body cam, the alley side of the fence has no support poles. It was pretty clear to me that's what happened looking at the video.

[LittleLebowski]

Something tells me this might play out differently than Minneapolis. Just a hunch. And not good.

[Totem Polar]

At some point, the whole country is going to have to take a breath, and start listening to some grown-up experts (in UoF) to re-boot this dynamic.

Otherwise, our society is screwed.

[Joe in PNG]

At some point, the whole country is going to have to take a breath, and start listening to some grown-up experts (in UoF) to re-boot this dynamic.

Otherwise, our society is screwed.

The utter lack of understanding of what the Rule of Law is, how it works, why laws should be enforced, what happens when they aren't, and so on is also a big problem. Florida's own Jim Bob on a meth & discount beer binge suddenly deciding to display his oral prowess on a cottonmouth snake to his friends has put more forethought into his actions & the long term consequences of them than many a Progressive Democrat that is cold sober & possessing an impressive degree.

[fixer]

Twitterverse reporting kid was a part of Latin kings

[blues]

It's hard to put the genie back in the bottle.

We've allowed mayhem and lawlessness to go (mostly) unchecked...and now, trying to tighten the screws will be met with more cries of racism, repression and police brutality...beside the expected violence and upheaval which is touted and viewed as a legitimate response, (and absolute right), to perceived grievance...even when it's demonstrably baseless and serves no legitimate purpose.

Good luck to us all.

[Nephrology]

Gun was very clearly in the kid's hand just about 1 second before shots were fired. Can be seen if you advance the footage very carefully at about 2:04 from BWC #1.

It sucks this happened, but I can't imagine having handled it any other way myself. If you watch past the (terribly futile) resuscitation efforts, the cop who fired his weapon is clearly very distraught. I feel badly for both him and the kid that was killed. Only mercy is that the kid was clearly dead or at least unconscious within moments of hitting the ground. He did not suffer for long.

The real piece of shit is the 20 year old who was shooting off the gun and gave the police a fake name for the kid that delayed his identification by family for 48 hours. I hope the rest of his life is painful, short, and spent in prison.

[Spartan1980]

It's hard to put the genie back in the bottle.

We've allowed mayhem and lawlessness to go (mostly) unchecked...and now, trying to tighten the screws will be met with more cries of racism, repression and police brutality...beside the expected violence and upheaval which is touted and viewed as a legitimate response, (and absolute right), to perceived grievance...even when it's demonstrably baseless and serves no legitimate purpose.

Good luck to us all.

And yet some want more. The thing that gets me is the utter lack of thought put into what they say.


It wasn't an accident. Policing in our country is inherently & intentionally racist.

Daunte Wright was met with aggression & violence. I am done with those who condone government funded murder.

No more policing, incarceration, and militarization. It can't be reformed.

https://twitter.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1381745303997534216

This was just a few days ago (the 12th), now she's promoting stacking SCOTUS. With "No more policing, incarceration, and militarization. It can't be reformed." does she not know that the entire judicial branch isn't needed? And if that's the case what is the role of the legislative branch? Just how tribal does she want to go? Just another example of the insanity that the lemmings buy into.

[blues]

Keep your powder dry.

[Lex Luthier]

And yet some want more. The thing that gets me is the utter lack of thought put into what they say.



This was just a few days ago (the 12th), now she's promoting stacking SCOTUS. With "No more policing, incarceration, and militarization. It can't be reformed." does she not know that the entire judicial branch isn't needed? And if that's the case what is the role of the legislative branch? Just how tribal does she want to go? Just another example of the insanity that the lemmings buy into.


During the Russian Revolution, the criminal element was given free reign by the revolutionary forces to make things really bad for the ordinary citizens, so they would submit to the change in leadership.

[Joe in PNG]

During the Russian Revolution, the criminal element was given free reign by the revolutionary forces to make things really bad for the ordinary citizens, so they would submit to the change in leadership.

Who then came back with secret policing, gulags, and real militarization. But, if you are like Rashida and believe you'll be one of the Central Committee, well, jackboots aren't all that bad if you are the one wearing them.

[RevolverRob]

Something tells me this might play out differently than Minneapolis. Just a hunch. And not good.

I think it's going to play out differently.

We'll see what happens. But I don't see Latinos burning whole neighborhoods on a weeknight. They have to be at work the next day. Both snark and not snark.

The "outrage" on this particular incident is already dialed back from George Floyd.

See the problem with a Black Lives Matter campaign is...it's harder to complain when a non-black person gets shot. Because remember the message is all non-black people are racist.

Latin Kings talk shit anytime a Latino is killed by police in Chicago. Whether the kid was a Latin King or not, they have a tendency to claim everyone.

[Spartan1980]

During the Russian Revolution, the criminal element was given free reign by the revolutionary forces to make things really bad for the ordinary citizens, so they would submit to the change in leadership.

Well, two thoughts.

1) I seriously doubt any of these leftist nitwits have the strategery capability to actually cobble up a plan that would involve the dynamics that would be required.

and

2) If they did, they too would likely have to exile to Switzerland or someplace. It's much harder to remain hidden now compared to the early 1900's and I seriously doubt that the Antifa, BLM, et al., types would remain loyal enough long enough to claim their just rewards upon their return. Someone would 'eff it all up in these times.

But that's still an example of how the general public could be duped.

[HeavyDuty]

Any bets on whether the kid was a little who was holding the gun for the adult? We used to see a lot of that when I was a news photographer on the South Side back in the 80s.

[Nephrology]

Any bets on whether the kid was a little who was holding the gun for the adult? We used to see a lot of that when I was a news photographer on the South Side back in the 80s.

My understanding is that this is exactly what happened. Supposedly the 20 y/o was popping off rounds and palmed the gun off to the kid when PD arrived.

[HeavyDuty]

My understanding is that this is exactly what happened. Supposedly the 20 y/o was popping off rounds and palmed the gun off to the kid when PD arrived.

20 year old needs to burn. Please, please, please charge and convict under felony murder, but I have no doubt Foxx will let him walk.

[RevolverRob]

20 year old needs to burn. Please, please, please charge and convict under felony murder, but I have no doubt Foxx will let him walk.

I dunno on that one. Lightfoot and the city council have been pretty adamant that Chicago needs to go after the person who put the gun in his hand, hard. I'm really hoping they do.

Public outcry has been hit and miss on this one so far. Here's the front page of the Sun Times this morning. Which calls this "tragic" and clearly notes the kid had a gun in his hand and then "a moment" later raised empty hands. To me this language choice indicates a more balanced view point.

Instead of saying, "Video details horrific shooting of unarmed Adam Toledo by police."

70202

[Lex Luthier]

I dunno on that one. Lightfoot and the city council have been pretty adamant that Chicago needs to go after the person who put the gun in his hand, hard. I'm really hoping they do.

Public outcry has been hit and miss on this one so far. Here's the front page of the Sun Times this morning. Which calls this "tragic" and clearly notes the kid had a gun in his hand and then "a moment" later raised empty hands. To me this language choice indicates a more balanced view point.

Instead of saying, "Video details horrific shooting of unarmed Adam Toledo by police."

70202

If Mayor Lightfoot keeps on this tack, it is much to her credit.

[RJ]

RevolverRob Rob what’s your take on the average Chicago resident on this?

Chicago is a tough town, with tough people. Is it possible they’ll see this as too bad so sad, and while tragic, not necessarily rise to the outrage of burning the city down and hot footing off with Nike’s and Flat Screens?

[Moonshot]

I'm not a cop and my experience is limited. I try and wait for more information to come out before forming an opinion, and I seldom trust a single released video or eye witness statement, which can often be incomplete and/or incorrect. I haven't always sided with LE on a number of these recent events.

Even so, from what I could see on this body cam video, it looks to me as a justifiable shoot. The first time I watched it, two things jumped out at me...

1) The cop had his flashlight on strobe, which made watching the movements of the suspect harder to pinpoint and
2) when the suspect turned to raise his hands, I could see the shadow of his right hand on the fence behind him, and the shadow of his finger looked like the barrel of a gun.

If you freeze frame it you can kind of see it (I'm running on a tablet and freeze frame is iffy), but in any case the cop didn't have freeze frame. He had a split second.

Another camera angle may show things differently, but so what? The cop didn't see from that angle. All he had was what his eyes could see from his angle, and I am beginning to think the strobe effect coupled with the shadow of the kids hand on the fence made it look like the kid was getting ready to turn and fire.

[RevolverRob]

RevolverRob Rob what’s your take on the average Chicago resident on this?

Chicago is a tough town, with tough people. Is it possible they’ll see this as too bad so sad, and while tragic, not necessarily rise to the outrage of burning the city down and hot footing off with Nike’s and Flat Screens?

That's kind of my reading of the situation. Reports were "dozens" of protesters protested last night. However, tonight is the planned protest and we'll see. But most Chicagoans seem to view this as unfortunate, but an unfortunate extension of reality.

Even the outrage by the Wokesters is dialed back tremendously on this. Which is a trend I tend to observe whenever it's obvious the person shot had a weapon and it's visible on tape.

Today's breakdown in the paper included an actual piece by police UoF expert on reaction times and decision making. There was also a frame-by-frame breakdown of the key few seconds of the footage, highlighting the gun in Toledo's hand. Even the Op-Ed piece noted "Police work is dangerous, there is no doubt. We challenge the average Chicagoan to run down a dark Chicago alley at 2:45am chasing someone who was armed."

Even the Aldermen and the Mayor aren't calling it disgusting like they did George Floyd or the Kyle Rittenhouse situation.

It all kind of points to a general sense of, "This sucks. But the cop saw a gun, there was a gun, there was a foot chase. And this 13-year old kid shouldn't have been out on the street at 2:45am. Parents and our community failed him."

As opposed to, "He was an angel attending choir practice and the cops murdered him in cold blood!"

[Mystery]

Putting the shooting thing on back burner for a while, this is a messed up society.
When I was 13, forget gun, even carrying a pocket knife would be a big no no.
I know it's Chicago where guns are cheaper than a case of beer but this kid is just started to be a teen and already carrying firearm (or hanging with kids that carry firearm).

The age came to light after the incident and I've seen some kids that age bigger than grown ups.

[Lex Luthier]

Putting the shooting thing on back burner for a while, this is a messed up society.
When I was 13, forget gun, even carrying a pocket knife would be a big no no.
I know it's Chicago where guns are cheaper than a case of beer but this kid is just started to be a teen and already carrying firearm (or hanging with kids that carry firearm).

The age came to light after the incident and I've seen some kids that age bigger than grown ups.

This is Oliver Twist stuff, going back centuries at least. Criminal gangs have almost always recruited kids to confuse the authorities and to act as mules, lookouts and perform surveillance. You see it in pretty much any human society.

[blues]

This is Oliver Twist stuff, going back centuries at least. Criminal gangs have almost always recruited kids to confuse the authorities and to act as mules, lookouts and perform surveillance. You see it in pretty much any human society.

Yep. That's why the local gang I came up around, the Centurions, had their Junior Centurions...though I didn't realize what the catch was early on...in grade school.

[RevolverRob]

Putting the shooting thing on back burner for a while, this is a messed up society.
When I was 13, forget gun, even carrying a pocket knife would be a big no no.
I know it's Chicago where guns are cheaper than a case of beer but this kid is just started to be a teen and already carrying firearm (or hanging with kids that carry firearm).

The age came to light after the incident and I've seen some kids that age bigger than grown ups.

A lot of it just depends on where you grew up and lived. As a kid a pocket knife was normal for me in Texas.

___

As for guns here in Chicago...if people stopped leaving guns in cars, about 30% of the guns on the street would dry up. If the Feds actually worked hard to prosecute straw sales then there would be less guns out there too. Recent studies indicate about 40% of the guns recovered in crimes in 2019 came from straw sales from basically two gun shops within Illinois, just south and north of Chicago (not from Indiana, Wisconsin, and other states as the governor and others have said). A number we can look forward to seeing increase if Chipman is confirmed as ATF Director. I imagine they'll 'investigate' straw sales by introducing a whole new campaign ala Fast and Furious, maybe they'll call it, "Cubs and Sox". :rolleyes:

[Suvorov]

During the Russian Revolution, the criminal element was given free reign by the revolutionary forces to make things really bad for the ordinary citizens, so they would submit to the change in leadership.

Bingo!

The whole point now is to burn it down.

From Chaos comes Order.

[Caballoflaco]

A lot of it just depends on where you grew up and lived. As a kid a pocket knife was normal for me in Texas.

___

As for guns here in Chicago...if people stopped leaving guns in cars, about 30% of the guns on the street would dry up. If the Feds actually worked hard to prosecute straw sales then there would be less guns out there too. Recent studies indicate about 40% of the guns recovered in crimes in 2019 came from straw sales from basically two gun shops within Illinois, just south and north of Chicago (not from Indiana, Wisconsin, and other states as the governor and others have said). A number we can look forward to seeing increase if Chipman is confirmed as ATF Director. I imagine they'll 'investigate' straw sales by introducing a whole new campaign ala Fast and Furious, maybe they'll call it, "Cubs and Sox". :rolleyes:

My pronostication is they’ll end up going after gunstores for too many straw sales because there isn’t a willingness to jail the single moms who are doing the actual straw purchasing.

[RJ]

From Chaos comes Order.

Ok, hands up, who heard Suvorov’s post this way? :cool:

70211

[shootist26]

That's kind of my reading of the situation. Reports were "dozens" of protesters protested last night. However, tonight is the planned protest and we'll see. But most Chicagoans seem to view this as unfortunate, but an unfortunate extension of reality.

Even the outrage by the Wokesters is dialed back tremendously on this. Which is a trend I tend to observe whenever it's obvious the person shot had a weapon and it's visible on tape.

Today's breakdown in the paper included an actual piece by police UoF expert on reaction times and decision making. There was also a frame-by-frame breakdown of the key few seconds of the footage, highlighting the gun in Toledo's hand. Even the Op-Ed piece noted "Police work is dangerous, there is no doubt. We challenge the average Chicagoan to run down a dark Chicago alley at 2:45am chasing someone who was armed."

Even the Aldermen and the Mayor aren't calling it disgusting like they did George Floyd or the Kyle Rittenhouse situation.

It all kind of points to a general sense of, "This sucks. But the cop saw a gun, there was a gun, there was a foot chase. And this 13-year old kid shouldn't have been out on the street at 2:45am. Parents and our community failed him."

As opposed to, "He was an angel attending choir practice and the cops murdered him in cold blood!"You're certainly more of an optimist than I am. I have bad feelings about this weekend in chicago

[Maple Syrup Actual]

A lot of it just depends on where you grew up and lived. As a kid a pocket knife was normal for me in Texas.


This was also true for me, I don't know how old I was when I got my first pocket knife in mid-sized town Canada. Between six and eight. Totally normal. I took it to school, I never thought about it at all. I had pocket knives my whole life. Lots of boys had swiss army knives. I think it was pretty standard that when boys went from Beavers to Cubs they'd get a swiss army knife; I'm not certain because I wasn't in scouts but lots of kids at my school were and I think that's how it went.

This would have been the mid-1980s.

[peterb]

This was also true for me, I don't know how old I was when I got my first pocket knife in mid-sized town Canada. Between six and eight. Totally normal. I took it to school, I never thought about it at all. I had pocket knives my whole life. Lots of boys had swiss army knives. I think it was pretty standard that when boys went from Beavers to Cubs they'd get a swiss army knife; I'm not certain because I wasn't in scouts but lots of kids at my school were and I think that's how it went.

This would have been the mid-1980s.

In the US there were official Cub Scout and Boy Scout knives when I was that age. Cubs start early in elementary school.
Still is: https://www.scoutshop.org/cub-scout-multi-tool-pocket-knife-2-3-4-blade-615775.html

[Caballoflaco]

This was also true for me, I don't know how old I was when I got my first pocket knife in mid-sized town Canada. Between six and eight. Totally normal. I took it to school, I never thought about it at all. I had pocket knives my whole life. Lots of boys had swiss army knives. I think it was pretty standard that when boys went from Beavers to Cubs they'd get a swiss army knife; I'm not certain because I wasn't in scouts but lots of kids at my school were and I think that's how it went.

This would have been the mid-1980s.

I didn’t know there were schools where 12 and 13 y.o. kids weren’t selling and using drugs and alcohol at school and outside of school with all the various activities that go along with that until I met people who lived in less economically diverse areas than me. It wasn’t all the kids of course, but I didn’t know that all schools didn’t have a thriving black market for drugs until I got older and when I told people where I was from more than a few would say “oh that’s where we would go to get x-drug before a big party”.

[RJ]

I designed and taught a Train the Trainer “knife safety” class for the University of Scouting as one of my Wood Badge tasks. It’s been a while but I believe it still starts with Bear Scouts, who are in third grade or 9 years old to earn a Whittlin’ Chip Card.

I will say, as a retired Cubmaster and Den Leader, teaching the kids was pretty easy, but worrying about the Helicopter Parents, geez. Some of them positively swooned at the prospect of handing little Jimmy a pocketknife. They fix me with a stare, and huffily ask, but won’t he cut himself?! I’d usually reply, well, yeah, but only once. :cool:

[TAZ]

Bingo!

The whole point now is to burn it down.

From Chaos comes Order.

Burn it down or in the least make it so bad that people clamor for the government to do something. Been done across the globe numerous times. You just need a good set of useful idiots to mage it happen. Well, the USA is loaded with them these days.

[Suvorov]

Burn it down or in the least make it so bad that people clamor for the government to do something. Been done across the globe numerous times. You just need a good set of useful idiots to mage it happen. Well, the USA is loaded with them these days.

It’s a formula as long as tyranny.

[entropy]

Bingo!



From Chaos comes Order.



Entropy :p

[Jared]

Putting the shooting thing on back burner for a while, this is a messed up society.
When I was 13, forget gun, even carrying a pocket knife would be a big no no.
I know it's Chicago where guns are cheaper than a case of beer but this kid is just started to be a teen and already carrying firearm (or hanging with kids that carry firearm).

The age came to light after the incident and I've seen some kids that age bigger than grown ups.

When I was 13 I carried a Swiss Army knife everywhere that wasn’t school and was pretty decent at busting clay birds with a 12 gauge Remington 1100. At 14 I handed my father the $450 I had saved up and in return was handed a brand spanking new Colt M1991A1 Government Model, cal. 45ACP (because Jeff Cooper was my idol back then). I was not allowed to handle that Colt unless I was under his direct supervision, and I knew damn well that if I broke that rule I’d never see the pistol again. I also didn’t t know the combination to his gun safe. Even at that, the thought of misusing that pistol never crossed my mind.

In all my years of school I got precisely one detention (for wearing a Hooters T-Shirt in High School), never used drugs, never got arrested, nothing. Now I realize this kid is in Chicago and I was out on a farm, but still. Parenting plays a much bigger role in maturity and responsibility than age does.

[luckyman]

Putting the shooting thing on back burner for a while, this is a messed up society.
When I was 13, forget gun, even carrying a pocket knife would be a big no no.
I know it's Chicago where guns are cheaper than a case of beer but this kid is just started to be a teen and already carrying firearm (or hanging with kids that carry firearm).

The age came to light after the incident and I've seen some kids that age bigger than grown ups.

I’ve carried a knife since I was 8 I think. That was part of how you measured yourself as a trusted member of the clan who could hang out with the grown-ups. Plus you had to show that you were absolutely trustworthy with a knife before they let you handle a gun. That’s part of the current problem IMO. No emphasis on proving yourself responsible to participate in adult stuff; no cutting yourself once with a pocketknife to learn never to break a safety rule again.

Edited to add: well that’s the idea anyway. We won’t talk about the knife scar I have from a “mishap” a couple of years ago [emoji1]

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We played "mumblety-peg" on the streets of Brooklyn in sight of the Moms and Dads who sat outside the houses in then evening. The knife was from my father. No big deal then.

I think a good human factors, UOF expert analysis will prevent any criminal charges. The city might pay out as usual.

My wife and I think it is reasonable to look to the parents and charge them (if they are together or whomever had the kid) for some kid of child neglect. No way my 13 is out at that time. Don't tell me it was the first time.

Back to the civil case, given that the kid was out then, I wouldn't give the parents a cent. They have part of the blame.

Of course, it is horrible that a kid that edge gets into such a place so I'm not going to put much on him. The 20 year and parents - yep, justice should be done.

[BobM]

I will say, as a retired Cubmaster and Den Leader, teaching the kids was pretty easy, but worrying about the Helicopter Parents, geez. Some of them positively swooned at the prospect of handing little Jimmy a pocketknife. They fix me with a stare, and huffily ask, but won’t he cut himself?! I’d usually reply, well, yeah, but only once. :cool:

Then they could work on their first aid badges.

[Joe in PNG]

We played "mumblety-peg" on the streets of Brooklyn in sight of the Moms and Dads who sat outside the houses in then evening. The knife was from my father. No big deal then.

I think a good human factors, UOF expert analysis will prevent any criminal charges. The city might pay out as usual.

My wife and I think it is reasonable to look to the parents and charge them (if they are together or whomever had the kid) for some kid of child neglect. No way my 13 is out at that time. Don't tell me it was the first time.

Back to the civil case, given that the kid was out then, I wouldn't give the parents a cent. They have part of the blame.

Of course, it is horrible that a kid that edge gets into such a place so I'm not going to put much on him. The 20 year and parents - yep, justice should be done.

The "Should Happens" are personally uncomfortable and politically hazardous. Very few people can look at themselves in a mirror and accept that they're the bad guy- and less can accept being told that by someone else.

Instead, the usual suspect will trot out the usual scapegoats, and the usual useless panaceas will be prescribed, and the usual mass slaughter of minorities by minorities will continue unheralded.

[Lex Luthier]

The "Should Happens" are personally uncomfortable and politically hazardous. Very few people can look at themselves in a mirror and accept that they're the bad guy- and less can accept being told that by someone else.

Instead, the usual suspect will trot out the usual scapegoats, and the usual useless panaceas will be prescribed, and the usual mass slaughter of minorities by minorities will continue unheralded.

I was listening to NPR this afternoon on my way back from buying guitar-related superglue and 5.56 cartridges*
and there was a piece on Adam Toledo, his family, and his neighborhood...the kid's mom is getting a *ton* of flak from the community. Apparently the Mexican immigrants in that section of Chicago are utterly fed up with the gang presence and are publicly holding her responsible. It's bad enough that she's moved her family out of their place and has lawyered up. Said lawyer was quoted in the piece. I was quite surprised to hear it.





*PMC Bronze, Winchester White Box, PPU, Sellier & Bellot, all 55 gr ball, all $20/20, only one box per customer (!). I went PMC Bronze since I know it's re-packaged Taiwanese M193.
The glue?

[45dotACP]

RevolverRob Rob what’s your take on the average Chicago resident on this?

Chicago is a tough town, with tough people. Is it possible they’ll see this as too bad so sad, and while tragic, not necessarily rise to the outrage of burning the city down and hot footing off with Nike’s and Flat Screens?

Not Rob, but to the average resident of Little Village, it's the cost of doing crime. For the average Chicagoan, he's hardly the youngest or most innocent to die in the pursuit of that lifestyle.

We've had gang members abduct and murder the children of other gang members, hell during the Adam Toledo case we had a dude initiate a road rage shootout with the grandchild of his girlfriend in their vehicle and said kid took a bullet to the head.

Want my Southside theory?

The people who gave a shit about Adam Toledo when he was alive sure could've used the help of all the people who apparently care so deeply for his young precious life now, but the number of people who cared genuinely about him was probably fewer than zero. Almost everyone who cares about this case is either selling something or trying to keep their job.

I suspect It'll follow the usual pattern of protest to riot to looting...save a few wildcards...The hipster neighborhoods (wicker park, logan square etc) may make an autonomous zone in front of Lori Lightfoots house or whatever, and there might be riots in or nearby a police precinct, but something that was overlooked was that the Latino street gangs were tolerant of extremely little bullshit regarding the George Floyd riots, and Little Village, their home, was almost totally unmolested by BLM "protestors" under the threat of some serious violence.

As in my coworkers from that neighborhood showed me videos of confrontations where the usual "Antifa" crowd was met by a few Very Angry Latinos (with weapons) and the nature of peaceful protest was explored.

Their gig is protection as much as it is crime and rioters coming in and busting the place up is going to make them look bad so the neighborhood is going to know this. Riots or looting may occur in other neighborhoods or downtown though.



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[AKDoug]

Very few people can look at themselves in a mirror and accept that they're the bad guy- and less can accept being told that by someone else.
Very astute and well said. Every single person I've fired from my business has had this exact problem. It seems that no amount of counseling and kindness I applied helped, nor did being a hard ass with them.

[Totem Polar]

On tangent: I had a pocket knife by age 8. That was pretty standard among my peer group.

But, hell, we also brought guns to school, and nobody cared-so long as it was in season (deer, chukar, whatever).

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Very few people can look at themselves in a mirror and accept that they're the bad guy- \

I was hanging out with one of my closest friends last summer; we've been friends since were were around 16. I asked him something I'd been thinking about a lot: "when did you realize we were the bad guys?"

We definitely were, too. We stole, we cheated, we used drugs and vandalized stuff and were total miscreants. It was totally socially acceptable in our scene to own nothing that wasn't stolen. If you had something valuable that was stolen, that would have been seen as laudable, not shameful. But at the time we were convinced that everyone else was the real bad guys...that every football coach was a child molester, every successful athlete was a rapist, every cop was crooked.

It was much later that I realized this was a myth. Yes, there are football coaches that are child molesters...but it's super rare. Most successful athletes are just super motivated, talented people. Most cops hate corruption - that's why they're cops. But when we were young, we were literally counter-culture, not in the way that hippies were, but for real. We were anti-civilization. But we didn't think of ourselves as evil, we thought we were less evil than everyone else, and that the ideals of community and safety and warmth were all just facades. We didn't think the ideas were wrong, we thought that the proponents were lying.

I now realize that most of us, most of my friends I mean, were just the products of broken homes and we all had really warped ideas about the kind of treatment we could expect from the world. But it took me a really long time to figure that out. It didn't help that that kind of thinking is glamourized in pop culture; for some reason the example that springs to mind is the Stepford Wives, where the supposed pillars of the community have these brainwashed wives, but there are a million examples of this in pop culture. Of course now I see what a fantasy that all is; rooted in jealousy and bitterness, it drives people like the person I was as a kid insane and they refuse to accept that the all-star high school quarterback is also smart, and also nice, and also happy. You just can't face that possibility, because then what are you? You don't have some secret knowledge. You haven't got the real moral high ground. You're just trash. But that's the reality. We were the bad guys, we just didn't know it.

My friend had never come to that realization, and it silenced him for a long time. Eventually he just said, "holy shit, we were the bad guys."

Interestingly (or I think so anyway) all of us eventually became highly productive people. Well, when I say all of us, I mean everyone I chose to keep close to me; there was a larger scene of people who even at the time I thought were complete scum and basically all of them ended up in a bad way, as heavy drug addicts, career criminals, inpatient mental health cases, and homeless people. Or just dead, lots are dead. But the half-dozenish people I considered actual friends all ended up being pretty healthy people, it just took a longer time to get there.



Anyway I guess the point of all that is that yeah, nobody thinks they're the bad guys, even though from the outside it's painfully obvious.

[peterb]

Anyway I guess the point of all that is that yeah, nobody thinks they're the bad guys, even though from the outside it's painfully obvious.

Thank you for that.

The 20-year-old may have thought he was teaching the 13-year-old how to survive on the streets....

[blues]

I didn't realize I was heading down the road to being a bad guy until a teacher took the time, treated me with respect I had never known and helped me realize that I didn't have to be like the kids I ran with and emulated who were doing all the sorts of things that would have prevented me wearing a badge and achieving a modicum of success at being a human being.

(It wasn't an overnight success, but the seed was firmly planted, and though it was sometimes, (okay often), a struggle, I mostly overcame what might have been a very negative heading in life.)

It's a very fine line. Maybe that's why I was so good at interrogating defendants, my own as well as for other agents who requested me to conduct their interviews for them.

[Totem Polar]

The guy who used to head up the international Goju organization that I trained with as a youngster had a saying that I had on my wall for a while, loosely: “there is so much bad in the best of us and so much good in the worst of us that it’s often hard to tell who should be judging who.”

With the exception of outliers like a couple of dedicated old church ladies on one side, and some Ed Geins on the other, I still think there’s some truth to that.

As an aside, this guy was an awesome karate-ka. I absolutely looked up to him. He was also a 7 times all-Marine Corps and 3 times all-service Judo champion, as well as an olympic alternate on the judo team in 1964, and all-Okinawa champion. And Judo was his *second* martial art, after heading up a Goju org that had dojos all over the US and in several other countries.

But I digress.

[RevolverRob]

Peak of 1000 gathered. Marched along blocking a few streets. No major issues, they antagonized the cops in a few places. Surrounded a police car when the police arrested someone, but were soon pushed back.

No rioting, no looting.

This is what I expected. BLM and Antifa have painted themselves into a corner. Where their "moral high grounds" are based entirely on racial identity and not actually on the actions they propose to disapprove of.

The problem with Adam Toledo is, he was the wrong color. They simply can't manufacture the same outrage for this as they can if Adam had been black.

[HeavyDuty]

Yep. That's why the local gang I came up around, the Centurions, had their Junior Centurions...though I didn't realize what the catch was early on...in grade school.

Jeez, Blues - I knew you were old, but you must be ancient.

70275

[blues]

We didn't even have that fancy stuff in my day.

[Wondering Beard]

We didn't even have that fancy stuff in my day.

Which explains why they never became the Praetorians. ;-)

[blues]

Which explains why they never became the Praetorians. ;-)

Nope. We only got as far as becoming Posterians. I felt like an ass.

[revchuck38]

Jeez, Blues - I knew you were old, but you must be ancient.

70275

Good greaves!

[RevolverRob]

. I felt like an ass.

Prae tell why did you feel like that?

[Spartan1980]

During the Russian Revolution, the criminal element was given free reign by the revolutionary forces to make things really bad for the ordinary citizens, so they would submit to the change in leadership.

After a couple of days of mulling on this I think you may be onto something here and would edit my reply if I could.

We have a concerted effort to get rid of policing altogether and every possible thing being done to disarm the populace and it's happening simultaneously. Hmm...Maybe they are using the same playbook.

[Joe in PNG]

After a couple of days of mulling on this I think you may be onto something here and would edit my reply if I could.

We have a concerted effort to get rid of policing altogether and every possible thing being done to disarm the populace and it's happening simultaneously. Hmm...Maybe they are using the same playbook.

I'm thinking that this is backfiring, and big. If they would have concentrated on one issue and worked to quiet the other one down, they could have accomplished both. Either go all in on a gun ban and get the various People's Democratic Republics to quiet the rioting and protesting and police defunding talk; or go all in on the street violence and BLM and defunding the cops, and drop the gun control talk.

They went with both, and the public is responding by buying all the guns and all the ammo. They're putting the two together, and aren't liking it.

[Totem Polar]

Prae tell why did you feel like that?

The reasons are lost in the anals of history.

[HeavyDuty]

The reasons are lost in the anals of history.

A buttload of reasons.

[blues]

Let's keep the cracks to a minimum...

[Mitch]

For those of you keeping score at home the 21 year old shitbag that was with Adam has been released on bond. And another shithead that shot at 2 police officers during a traffic stop not far from my office here will probably serve 11 years if he’s convicted on everything.

Yes Chicago Democrats, tell me more about how it’s Indiana’s fault we have so many shootings here.

[HeavyDuty]

For those of you keeping score at home the 21 year old shitbag that was with Adam has been released on bond. And another shithead that shot at 2 police officers during a traffic stop not far from my office here will probably serve 11 years if he’s convicted on everything.

Yes Chicago Democrats, tell me more about how it’s Indiana’s fault we have so many shootings here.

They bonded that jamoche? Thank you, Kim Foxx - yet again, your gang ties are showing.

[okie john]

I'm thinking that this is backfiring, and big. If they would have concentrated on one issue and worked to quiet the other one down, they could have accomplished both. Either go all in on a gun ban and get the various People's Democratic Republics to quiet the rioting and protesting and police defunding talk; or go all in on the street violence and BLM and defunding the cops, and drop the gun control talk.

They went with both, and the public is responding by buying all the guns and all the ammo. They're putting the two together, and aren't liking it.

They're also swing voters, and they're beginning to see through the lies they've been fed for decades.

I worked in an LGS during the run up to the 1994 AWB. Most of our customers already owned guns and understood how gun control worked so they were buying to get ahead of the ban. I think that we're seeing less of that in play here because those buyers all stocked up once the ban expired.

I think that most of the folks buying guns now never would have done it without the riots plus the various state/local responses to it like defunding. (The pandemic is a factor to the extent that it hampers police operations and increases lawlessness.) These people are realizing that most of the bog-standard arguments against gun control were accurate and logical, and that the arguments in their favor were appeals to emotion.

The left is going to lose in a lot more than just these two areas.


Okie John