RFI: WACO seige/massacre [Archive]

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theJanitor

04-09-2021, 05:13 PM

Any trustworthy reading or media material regarding this topic? I was 19 when it happened, so maybe a retrospective look back would be good for me.

thanks

Hambo

04-09-2021, 05:38 PM

MickAK

04-09-2021, 05:50 PM

Any trustworthy reading or media material regarding this topic? I was 19 when it happened, so maybe a retrospective look back would be good for me.

thanks

Official report

https://www.justice.gov/archives/publications/waco/report-deputy-attorney-general-events-waco-texas-introduction

Official evaluation

https://www.justice.gov/archives/publications/waco/evaluation-handling-branch-davidian-stand-waco-texas-february-28-april-19-1993

Good book from a survivor, the recent miniseries is based on it I guess. Not exactly trustworthy but a first person account.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073Q44NVN/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Past that you kind of have to do your own legwork I think. The way I started was with sources from the community that had lived alongside the Branch Davidians long before the standoff. Then I moved on to reviewing the way the ATF and FBI had been conducting themselves in other operations that didn't make the news prior to the standoff. IMO it's hard to get good information from a single book because single books tend to develop a narrative so they're readable and that clouds things. Always remember Hanlon's Razor.

Glenn E. Meyer

04-09-2021, 06:10 PM

I found:

Learning Lessons From Waco: When Parties Bring Their Gods to the Negotiation Table (Religion and Politics)
by Jayne Docherty (Author)

https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Lessons-Waco-Negotiation-Religion/dp/0815627769/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1618009582&refinements=p_27%3AJayne+Docherty&s=books&sr=1-1&text=Jayne+Docherty

a useful read. It looks how the standard hostage paradigm of law enforcement at the time was not congruent with negotiating with unconventional religious beliefs:

The description:
Docherty (conflict studies, Eastern Mennonite Univ.) presents a conceptual model of worldview conflict, using the example of Waco to extract principles for negotiating with communities motivated by unconventional beliefs. Having researched transcripts of the negotiation tapes, official reports of events surrounding the negotiation, and interviews, she argues that parties with fundamentally different worldviews must first deal with reality, or "worldnaming," before they can begin to confront the issues. Docherty suggests that because they used different "naming, framing, and blaming" language, the two sides in the Waco negotiation were destined to fail. While the Branch Davidians' reality was based on values and spirituality, that of the FBI was scientific and goal-centered, and it dismissed the Davidians' attempts to communicate as "Bible babble." Docherty concludes with 14 lessons for future crisis negotiators dealing with such groups, not the least of which is that they must know their own worldview and work to understand that of the parties with whom they are negotiating. This book is doctoral candidate Docherty's thesis, as reflected in the hundreds of citations, footnotes, and discussions of other theoretical approaches. While the thesis is important and timely, the language is sometimes so academic that it may not be every negotiator's next read. For academic libraries. Julie Denny, Resolutions, Inc., Armenia, NY

Not to give spoilers but for example, some of the negotiations confirmed apocalyptic beliefs as compared to talking down the Davidians.

Lon

04-09-2021, 07:00 PM

Try this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Stalling-Time-Life-Hostage-Negotiator/dp/1400067251

The author is the negotiator who handled a good part of the BD negotiations. As I recall he seemed to be close to getting a resolution when bigwigs in DC forced the FBI into finishing the siege.

theJanitor

04-09-2021, 07:13 PM

Thanks, All

JHC

04-09-2021, 07:30 PM

The only thing I ever read that included some info was Cold Zero, by Christopher Whitcomb (https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Zero-Inside-Hostage-Rescue-ebook/dp/B001IZC3VA/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2OIBTSA0M1LFJ&dchild=1&keywords=cold+zero+by+christopher+whitcomb&qid=1618056889&sprefix=Cold+zero%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1).

IMO a very good read about the HRT and the events he was involved in.

UNK

04-09-2021, 09:30 PM

There was a mini series about it also.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.e8b036cc-7686-8ca6-a71c-c26ee6043c82?ref_=imdbref_m_tt_wbr_pvt_aiv&tag=imdbtag_tt_m_wbr_pvt_aiv-20

TGS

04-09-2021, 09:31 PM

Any trustworthy reading or media material regarding this topic? I was 19 when it happened, so maybe a retrospective look back would be good for me.

thanks

Official report

https://www.justice.gov/archives/publications/waco/report-deputy-attorney-general-events-waco-texas-introduction

Official evaluation

https://www.justice.gov/archives/publications/waco/evaluation-handling-branch-davidian-stand-waco-texas-february-28-april-19-1993

In addition, here's the 11th and 13th Congressional Reports on Waco.

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/106th-congress/house-report/1037/1

https://www.congress.gov/congressional-report/104th-congress/house-report/749/1

Most of the books, commentary, and especially the miniseries are extremely fictionalized. People have stated stuff on P-F.com Waco threads in the past that aren't even supported by witness interviews with the Branch Covidians themselves.....so, be careful what you read.

ccmdfd

04-10-2021, 09:52 AM

TGS

04-10-2021, 11:21 AM

Is that where this damn virus came from??

Son of a .....

hahaha, wow! Good catch. Totally wrote that without realizing it, we just had a covid meeting today, trying to get vaccinations for the 100+ police I run here. Must've been on my mind!

So, correction: davidians.

:cool:

UNK

04-10-2021, 01:07 PM

Most of the books, commentary, and especially the miniseries are extremely fictionalized. People have stated stuff on P-F.com Waco threads in the past that aren't even supported by witness interviews with the Branch Covidians themselves.....so, be careful what you read.

Absolutely. No way was my reply in compliance with the “trustworthy” request by the OP. Ive never researched the issue so I have no idea to the accuracy. I think any reasonable person after having watched it would be in doubt as to the authenticity. My apologies for the contribution.

Odin Bravo One

04-10-2021, 11:10 PM

HRT is a genuine clown show. For the amount of tax payer money wasted on that utterly useless organization of “Elite” Hostage Rescue Team, one would think they would be a legitimate entity. Badasses when battling women and children. A complete shit show when faced with a handful of inept, but dedicated military aged males.

Doubtful there is anything in print useful for an unbiased account of the events and how they unfolded.

Bergeron

04-10-2021, 11:53 PM

Doubtful there is anything in print useful for an unbiased account of the events and how they unfolded.

And more's the tragedy for the accuracy of that statement. Given the body count of the outcome, I'd really like something accurate and objective to analyze and learn from, but there's nothing on this topic that I trust in any sort of way. Too much interest one way or another in painting a picture.

"The facts of history are fairly agreed upon and change only infrequently and slightly, it is instead the interpretation of that history and those facts that is the subject of debate and divisiveness" said the Civil War park ranger.

I'm still taken aback that the Administration would see fit to advance a Waco-involved individual into ATF leadership.

Oldherkpilot

04-11-2021, 06:37 AM

Gun Mutt

04-11-2021, 06:55 AM

This one that will make you angry, Waco: Rules of Engagement (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120472/)

04-11-2021, 07:14 AM

Years back Linda Thompson "The Big Lie" was a documentary style video that questioned a lot of the information and the accuracy of the information. It presented a much different story line.

Borderland

04-11-2021, 10:12 AM

And more's the tragedy for the accuracy of that statement. Given the body count of the outcome, I'd really like something accurate and objective to analyze and learn from, but there's nothing on this topic that I trust in any sort of way. Too much interest one way or another in painting a picture.

"The facts of history are fairly agreed upon and change only infrequently and slightly, it is instead the interpretation of that history and those facts that is the subject of debate and divisiveness" said the Civil War park ranger.

I'm still taken aback that the Administration would see fit to advance a Waco-involved individual into ATF leadership.

Janet Reno was the one who was responsible for the attack on the compound. It wouldn't have happened if she hadn't green lighted the operation. IIRC she got some bad intel from the FBI which doesn't surprise me. Ruby Ridge was another FBI debacle. Seems the ATF/FBI can't go too many years without a FUBAR operation. Probably due for another one sometime soon.

CWM11B

04-11-2021, 02:25 PM

Janet Reno was the one who was responsible for the attack on the compound. It wouldn't have happened if she hadn't green lighted the operation. IIRC she got some bad intel from the FBI which doesn't surprise me. Ruby Ridge was another FBI debacle. Seems the ATF/FBI can't go too many years without a FUBAR operation. Probably due for another one sometime soon.

I've got plenty to beef about the FBI, and don't respect or trust them anymore. However, they got brought in to clean up messes not of their making. RR was an ATF screwup, but initial confrontation was between USMS and Weaver's family. Same thing for Waco (minus the USMS angle). Not long after the events, I went to a day long brief of both incidents. An ATF guy who was at Waco and wounded pulled no punches in lambasting pretty much the whole operation, from the SAC all the way to Reno and POTUS.

An FBI guy spoke on RR and laid out a bunch of info that was not covered in the media. He was also on scene but not HRT. He was pretty candid with things that went wrong. Personally, I believe these cases were clownshoes and should have resulted in a massive smackdown of ATF. Weaver should have been left alone after he initially refused to play by refusing to make an SBS for their informant. The level they pushed him would have gotten the case thrown out IMO as an entrapment. Same on Koresh. If it was so important to get him, they had plenty of opportunities to do a low profile arrest away from the compund, but the Clinton admin wanted a show. The ATF guy put that out there.

No minds are going to be changed about these events. I see them as combinations of malfeasance, incompetence, arrogance, ego, and poor decisions on multiple fronts converging, and with some factors, on both sides. And it resulted in a lot of people dying that didn't need to and should not have.I believe the government was wrong in these cases, but some of the personnel involved just got served a big shit sandwich. I base that on actually meeting a couple of dudes that were involved in the events as well as a conversation I had with Weaver himself once.

HCM

04-11-2021, 02:42 PM

I've got plenty to beef about the FBI, and don't respect or trust them anymore. However, they got brought in to clean up messes not of their making. RR was an ATF screwup, but initial confrontation was between USMS and Weaver's family. Same thing for Waco (minus the USMS angle). Not long after the events, I went to a day long brief of both incidents. An ATF guy who was at Waco and wounded pulled no punches in lambasting pretty much the whole operation, from the SAC all the way to Reno and POTUS.

An FBI guy spoke on RR and laid out a bunch of info that was not covered in the media. He was also on scene but not HRT. He was pretty candid with things that went wrong. Personally, I believe these cases were clownshoes and should have resulted in a massive smackdown of ATF. Weaver should have been left alone after he initially refused to play by refusing to make an SBS for their informant. The level they pushed him would have gotten the case thrown out IMO as an entrapment. Same on Koresh. If it was so important to get him, they had plenty of opportunities to do a low profile arrest away from the compund, but the Clinton admin wanted a show. The ATF guy put that out there.

No minds are going to be changed about these events. I see them as combinations of malfeasance, incompetence, arrogance, ego, and poor decisions on multiple fronts converging, and with some factors, on both sides. And it resulted in a lot of people dying that didn't need to and should not have.I believe the government was wrong in these cases, but some of the personnel involved just got served a big shit sandwich. I base that on actually meeting a couple of dudes that were involved in the events as well as a conversation I had with Weaver himself once.

Pretty much. RR started with ATF wanting to recruit Randy Weaver then trying to entrap him. At which point they obtained an arrest warrant which ATF could have tried to serve themselves but instead handed off to USMS. Once federal LEOs (in this case USMS) were killed / wounded FBI had to get involved as they have primary jurisdiction on assault/ murder of FLEOs.

Again with Waco, which is now THE example of how not to do things, ATF could have handled things differently but wanted a show, as evidenced by the TV news crew they brought with them. But again, once FLEOs were assaulted /killed FBI had to get involved due to primary jurisdiction on AFO (Assault on Federal Officer) cases.

An example of the FBI getting a similar situation right would be the 1985 siege of the CSA (covenant, sword, and arm of the Lord) compound in AR in 1985 which was resolved peacefully.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/may/4/remembering-30th-anniversary-of-csa-siege/

KEW8338

04-11-2021, 02:51 PM

IMO a very good read about the HRT and the events he was involved in.

Really???

ETA: Cant tell if thats sarcasm

HCM

04-11-2021, 02:52 PM

Original sources are always good - here is the Dept of the Treaaury OIG report on Waco:

http://www.policefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/DOT-Report-ATF-Investigation-of-David-Koresh_Sept-1993.pdf

JHC

04-11-2021, 02:58 PM

Really???

ETA: Cant tell if thats sarcasm

Yes super really.

Coyotesfan97

04-11-2021, 03:00 PM

An ATF guy who was at Waco and wounded pulled no punches in lambasting pretty much the whole operation, from the SAC all the way to Reno and POTUS.

If it was so important to get him, they had plenty of opportunities to do a low profile arrest away from the compund, but the Clinton admin wanted a show. The ATF guy put that out there.

You and I might’ve heard the same Agent speak. I went to a debrief at a CGIA conference and he was pretty frank about the failures and the fact they could’ve easily picked him up in Waco away from the compound. IIRC he also said their CI was already compromised before the raid.

KEW8338

04-11-2021, 03:02 PM

Yes super really.

I dont know him personally. But know of him,second hand, from multiple people professionally.

ccmdfd

04-13-2021, 07:08 PM

The only thing I ever read that included some info was Cold Zero, by Christopher Whitcomb (https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Zero-Inside-Hostage-Rescue-ebook/dp/B001IZC3VA/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2OIBTSA0M1LFJ&dchild=1&keywords=cold+zero+by+christopher+whitcomb&qid=1618056889&sprefix=Cold+zero%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1).

Just finished listening to the Audible version, narrated by the author. Fairly short listen, like 5 hours.

Very good information.

Thanks