Chauvin trial

[Lon]

Didn’t see a LE specific thread on this trial and figured I’d start one since testimony began yesterday. I can’t watch any of it live since I’m at a weeks long training course, but I’ve been following Andrew Branca’s Law of Self Defense blog coverage of the trial. I know some of you are not impressed by him, but his coverage has been interesting. You don’t have to be a member to see the blog info for the trial.

After reading the coverage of voir dire, I wonder why the hell Chauvin didn’t opt for a bench trial. Can’t believe the judge didn’t dismiss some of the jurors for cause.

I also was interested to see his defense is using the same expert from the trial of Chicago PD Ofc Jason Van Dyke. The blog has a video of this experts testimony in the van Dyke case. I wasn’t impressed.

Any thoughts if your watching?

https://lawofselfdefense.com/blog/

[Joe in PNG]

Powerline (https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/03/chauvin-trial-day-1-2.php) is also covering the trial

[Lex Luthier]

Oh, I'm paying close attention.
There are a lot of examples of "dogs that did not bark" so far.

[Lon]

Powerline (https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/03/chauvin-trial-day-1-2.php) is also covering the trial

Thanks. I’ll watch that one as well.

[wvincent]

Catching what I can of it.
One point, if the the Judge clears the courtroom to admonish you as a witness, than you best take heed of his "advice".
I'm not really sure why the EMT is there in uniform, she was off duty at the time of the incident, had no official involvement in the case. She seems long on opinion and short on facts. I don't see where she added much for the State.

I'm a bit worried that we are at a pivotal point in our justice system with this trial. Either the jury performs as a jury should, or they fold under the intense pressure for "justice" that the under/un/misinformed are clamoring for. If they acquiesce to the mob, then going forward we should just conduct trials through Facebook, and let mob rule prevail.

That's about all I'm going to say opinion wise on the public side of this forum.

[Guerrero]

Catching what I can of it.
One point, if the the Judge clears the courtroom to admonish you as a witness, than you best take heed of his "advice".
I'm not really sure why the EMT is there in uniform, she was off duty at the time of the incident, had no official involvement in the case. She seems long on opinion and short on facts. I don't see where she added much for the State.

I'm a bit worried that we are at a pivotal point in our justice system with this trial. Either the jury performs as a jury should, or they fold under the intense pressure for "justice" that the under/un/misinformed are clamoring for. If they acquiesce to the mob, then going forward we should just conduct trials through Facebook, and let mob rule prevail.

That's about all I'm going to say opinion wise on the public side of this forum.

"Properly understood, 'justice' is not an outcome but a process, and its achievement is wholly contingent upon the details of each case. We secure 'justice' both when an innocent man walks free and when a guilty man is convicted. Determining which is which is the whole ball of wax."

[wvincent]

"Properly understood, 'justice' is not an outcome but a process, and its achievement is wholly contingent upon the details of each case. We secure 'justice' both when an innocent man walks free and when a guilty man is convicted. Determining which is which is the whole ball of wax."

No argument from me at all.
But, with this trial in particular, it appears the Wokey Woke's want to circumvent the process, and just get straight to their version of "justice".

Case inpoint:
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/chelsea-handler-slams-due-process-derek-chauvin-trial

"So pathetic that there is a trial to prove that Derek Chauvin killed George Floyd when there is video of him doing so," Handler, 46, wrote.

The above quote kind of says a lot, I think.
I found it "interesting" that the State led the trial with so much use of "feels" and moral outrage, and not with accredited experts.
But, I'm not an attorney, so I don't know what I don't know.

Kind of telling when I have to really hold back on my thoughts on this Forum.

[Guerrero]

No argument from me at all.
But, with this trial in particular, it appears the Wokey Woke's want to circumvent the process, and just get straight to their version of "justice".

Case inpoint:
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/chelsea-handler-slams-due-process-derek-chauvin-trial

"So pathetic that there is a trial to prove that Derek Chauvin killed George Floyd when there is video of him doing so," Handler, 46, wrote.

The above quote kind of says a lot, I think.
I found it "interesting" that the State led the trial with so much use of "feels" and moral outrage, and not with accredited experts.
But, I'm not an attorney, so I don't know what I don't know.

Kind of telling when I have to really hold back on my thoughts on this Forum.

You could ask to have the thread moved to the Coterie Club.

[wvincent]

You could ask to have the thread moved to the Coterie Club.

Nah, this thread was started by one of our LE Professionals in their sub-forum, I will just remain a polite guest and roll with it.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Very curious to see how this trial develops.

When I watched the video, I can't say it struck me at the time as particularly lethal treatment in the absence of complicating factors i.e. the drugs that were later found in Floyd's system. I'm also generally of the opinion that getting into an altercation on the street is taking your life in your hands, so choose accordingly.

I don't follow what the laws of that jurisdiction are at all so my opinions don't really relate to the legality of the situation, about which I have basically no idea. I can understand if there's a duty of care argument there once the guy is in custody or whatever, I don't know how that works for Chauvin. But it seems, as a complete outsider, that they're looking for a conviction on the basis of him not coming off like a decent human being, rather than being directly responsible for the death. It's totally possible that this is well established and I just haven't heard about it, but I haven't personally seen anything showing a direct link between the restraint and the death.

When I say personally, I mean I'm drawing the distinction that I haven't really been following it so I haven't seen information, I'm not suggesting that the information doesn't exist, or does exist but is underreported. I'm just saying that I'm not personally aware of information that indicates that.

[RJ]

I’m really holding my breath on this one. I hope no matter what happens re a verdict, there’s no violence. Unfortunately I don’t see the mob being appeased. In fact short of a conviction of the most serious charge I don’t hold out much hope that we won’t see a repeat of last year’s “mostly peaceful” protests.

I’ll be saying a prayer for our First Responders, as well as all the folks in MSP. Be safe.

[Borderland]

He'll get a fair trial and then they'll hang him. How do you select a jury with so much media coverage before a trial? The media has already tried and convicted that dude. Somebody get a rope.

I don't have an opinion either way but he won't get a fair trial, that's for damn sure. How many women are on the jury? That might be his best chance. I don't know because I haven't followed the crime of the century. How many mostly peaceful BLM demonstrations did we see that featured George Floyd as the central figure?

[olstyn]

I’m really holding my breath on this one.

No breath holding here. I'm operating on the assumption that everything is going to go to shit, to include a repeat of the rioting from last year, and I'll be pleasantly surprised if it somehow doesn't.

[wvincent]

He'll get a fair trial and then they'll hang him. How do you select a jury with so much media coverage before a trial? The media has already tried and convicted that dude. Somebody get a rope.

I don't have an opinion either way but he won't get a fair trial, that's for damn sure. How many women are on the jury? That might be his best chance. I don't know because I haven't followed the crime of the century. How many mostly peaceful BLM demonstrations did we see that featured George Floyd as the central figure?

I'm thinking your "crime if the century" was sarcasm" and I sure agree.
How many people die in police custody every year?
How many people die in police custody every year after ingesting a fatal amount of illegal drugs?

I'm left to wonder, could an actual doctor on the scene have even saved him, let alone that hot-mess of an EMT they have had on the stand.

[Navin Johnson]

No matter what the outcome there will be riots.....This bowel movement is not about GF.

[Joe in PNG]

No matter what the outcome there will be riots.....This bowel movement is not about GF.

If Chauvin is acquitted, they'll riot in anger, and if he's convicted, they'll riot for joy.

[GyroF-16]

If Chauvin is acquitted, they'll riot in anger, and if he's convicted, they'll riot for joy.

Sadly, I tend to believe the same thing.

[blues]

I can realistically see only one outcome...

https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/288/bb7/72884c7f98149bd422e488510277f2b0b9-20-dumpster-fire.rsquare.w700.gif

[DrkBlue]

He'll get a fair trial and then they'll hang him. How do you select a jury with so much media coverage before a trial? The media has already tried and convicted that dude. Somebody get a rope.

I don't have an opinion either way but he won't get a fair trial, that's for damn sure. How many women are on the jury? That might be his best chance. I don't know because I haven't followed the crime of the century. How many mostly peaceful BLM demonstrations did we see that featured George Floyd as the central figure?

The City, who defunded and then refunded the police, settling with the family for $27m during the trial?
No way that taints potential jurors, correct?

[Suvorov]

I can realistically see only one outcome...

https://pyxis.nymag.com/v1/imgs/288/bb7/72884c7f98149bd422e488510277f2b0b9-20-dumpster-fire.rsquare.w700.gif

They are going to riot either way but the riots will certainly be worse if there is no conviction or a light sentence.

While I freely admit I have not been following the trial, my mind is pretty much made up (of course I have watched enough to see the store clerk trying to put the blame for calling the cops on his boss). I am the first to want to see the process work however I do not believe he will get a fair trial much less verdict. The powers that be will sacrifice this man to appease the mob. It isn’t the first time in our national history and certainly not civilizations history but it makes me sad none the less. Bet he wishes he called in sick that day?

I hope my cynicism is wrong.

[olstyn]

The City, who defunded and then refunded the police, settling with the family for $27m during the trial?
No way that taints potential jurors, correct?

That was in fact discussed during jury selection. I think the only reason the judge's decision to deny the defense's request for a change of venue makes any sense at all is that you'd have to move the trial to somewhere TVs and the internet don't exist to get a completely untainted jury pool.

[Lon]

That was in fact discussed during jury selection. I think the only reason the judge's decision to deny the defense's request for a change of venue makes any sense at all is that you'd have to move the trial to somewhere TVs and the internet don't exist to get a completely untainted jury pool.

I disagree. Moving several counties away will get you a jury pool that probably has little to no experience with MPD. Chauvin is the face of the trial but in a way, MPD is on trial as well.

[jnc36rcpd]

The jury pool in Minneapolis certainly realizes that insurrection will occur in their community if Chauvin is not convicted. They will also be under threat if Chauvin isn't convicted. I think Minneapolis jury members will vote to convict regardless. In another venue, jurors might judge on the basis of the case.

Truth be told, Chauvin strikes me as a bit of a jerk. If his technique was Minneapolis PD protocol and he had used it multiple times in the past without lethal consequences, I think it would be difficult to prove murder to an impartial jury (which I doubt he has). If I were the prosecutor, I would lean toward the two minutes he allegedly maintained his position after another officer told Chauvin he could not find a pulse.

Of curse, we're coming up on the summer riot season no matter what happens. Thank goodness so many experienced officers are postponing retirements until social workers start running calls and all those recruits we're hired have finished entry-level and field training. Wait! What....? But I thought we were woke and everything would be OK. You know..different, but somehow the same.

[olstyn]

I disagree. Moving several counties away will get you a jury pool that probably has little to no experience with MPD. Chauvin is the face of the trial but in a way, MPD is on trial as well.

Certainly you're right that it would be better, but I don't see him getting a truly fair trial basically anywhere.

[Borderland]

The City, who defunded and then refunded the police, settling with the family for $27m during the trial?
No way that taints potential jurors, correct?

Exactly. City already admitted guilt with that huge settlement. That only leaves one question which is the sentence.

[Totem Polar]

Exactly. City already admitted guilt with that huge settlement. That only leaves one question which is the sentence.

Maybe. The one out for Chauvin is if the defense can shift blame to the dept, training, culture, and policy. It’s a long shot, but it’s not like MPD didn’t already hold the record for largest wrongful death payout in history before George Floyd became a thing.

But God only knows. It’ll be interesting to see what shit sticks to who in all this, when the trial wraps up.

[Lon]

I was curious about bench trials in MN so I looked it up. Here’s what there statute is:


(c) Waiver Necessitated by Prejudicial Publicity. The defendant must be permitted to waive a jury trial whenever the court determines:
(i) the defendant knowingly and voluntarily waived that right; and
(ii) reason exists to believe that, because of the dissemination of potentially prejudicial material, the waiver must be granted to assure a fair trial.

I’d say (ii) was met. 😳

[Hambo]

Put your money on this:

-Chauvin will be convicted at least on manslaughter charge.

-Rioting will occur even if he is convicted.

[willie]

Chauvin's Chief is testifying against him. I had never heard of that move before. That sounds as if the Chief is tending to his own career.

[olstyn]

Put your money on this:

-Chauvin will be convicted at least on manslaughter charge.

-Rioting will occur even if he is convicted.

Those are my exact expectations. I don't see the state being able to prove the intent aspect of the murder charges, but manslaughter seems like a fairly easy "out" for the jury. I expect rioting to occur based on the "justification" that manslaughter isn't enough to be considered justice. (I'm sure the rioters would come up with some other justification for rioting in nearly any circumstance, even a conviction on all charges.)

[RJ]

Those are my exact expectations. I don't see the state being able to prove the intent aspect of the murder charges, but manslaughter seems like a fairly easy "out" for the jury. I expect rioting to occur based on the "justification" that manslaughter isn't enough to be considered justice. (I'm sure the rioters would come up with some other justification for rioting in nearly any circumstance, even a conviction on all charges.)

Concur.

Is it possible you or Lex Luthier can give us a sense of the scale of the area around the courthouse, i.e. is it a downtown building or suburban, or what sort of area it is? Are there specific public areas (a la the "CHOP") where The Mob is already gathering that might be used as touch points? Just trying to get a sense of the lay of the land as it were.

Best of luck. Perhaps time to plan that vacation.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Chauvin's Chief is testifying against him. I had never heard of that move before. That sounds as if the Chief is tending to his own career.

Any info on the chief's history? His career? I'll be curious as to his level of expertise in the use of force area.

[BehindBlueI's]

Those are my exact expectations. I don't see the state being able to prove the intent aspect of the murder charges, but manslaughter seems like a fairly easy "out" for the jury.

I'm going from memory, but wasn't there a "Murder 3" or something similar that would equate to manslaughter in most jurisdictions? Something like manslaughter + 'depraved heart' = Murder 3 but no requirement for premeditation?

[BillSWPA]

Chauvin's Chief is testifying against him. I had never heard of that move before. That sounds as if the Chief is tending to his own career.

Or perhaps the chief has a genuine problem with what he did?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DC_P]

Chauvin's Chief is testifying against him. I had never heard of that move before. That sounds as if the Chief is tending to his own career.

Given that anyone who testifies will be broadcast on every form of media known to man, I would be shocked if anyone would be willing to testify on his behalf. Can you imagine how you would be ostracized and publicly shamed for even saying he seemed like a 'decent' person? I am not intending to show any bias in any direction on the trial, but given how public the entire thing is and what the repercussions would be for being perceived to be on the 'wrong' side, I don't see how a lot of the testimony can be given any more credibility than a political speech.

Just my opinion, I am not following the trial.

[Totem Polar]

Given that anyone who testifies will be broadcast on every form of media known to man, I would be shocked if anyone would be willing to testify on his behalf. Can you imagine how you would be ostracized and publicly shamed for even saying he seemed like a 'decent' person? I am not intending to show any bias in any direction on the trial, but given how public the entire thing is and what the repercussions would be for being perceived to be on the 'wrong' side, I don't see how a lot of the testimony can be given any more credibility than a political speech.

This is, sadly, a reasonable concern.

Which leads to the 2nd order effect: a whole bunch of people keeping to themselves who feel like Chauvin—dickhole though he may be—got thrown under the bus in stellar fashion.

Which leads to the 3rd order effect: nobody wanting to police these cities.

And so forth...

[willie]

I agree that saying anything good about Chauvin would take courage. I think the man screwed up. However, if I were his Chief, my view would be there are already enough nails in Chauvin's coffin without my adding others. I'm cynical. I see Chief's move as political posturing. When Chauvin arrives at prison, unless he is segregated, he is a dead man. Perhaps paddy wagons are a good idea. Jail staff deal with many different situations. Their transporting arrested persons might resolve many issues.

Many here have scant knowledge about men who are skip chasers and track down those who jump bail. Ideally he would bring back the felon on a plane. He would arrive at an understanding. You will wear clean clothes and eat good. We will respect each other. Those who were non compliant and had to be brought back in a car received different treatment. He broke bones to gain compliance. I knew this man well. I taught him in school almost 40 years ago. He no longer is in this business. He shot a man 13 times for kicking him in the nuts. The judge retired him. I am old and out of date. Hopefully these practices have changed.

[BillSWPA]

In another thread, Behindblueis explained positional asphyxia, which is explained here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positional_asphyxia, as well as here: https://www.policemag.com/524139/how-to-prevent-positional-asphyxia. The officers involved knew exactly what was happening, as demonstrated by Officer Lane asking Chauvin twice if they should turn Floyd on his side. Chauvin continued to remain on Floyd's neck for minutes after he stopped responding and lost consciousness, never rendering first aid.

Floyd clearly contributed to his own predicament: taking drugs and passing counterfeit bills are clear bad decisions that sensible people avoid. These bad choices, however, do not justify what happened.

The concerns raised about the fairness of the trial are real, but ultimately I think Chauvin is likely to get a fair trial. I do not understand why his ex-girlfriend testified at the guilt phase rather than at the sentencing phase. I agree with those above who suggested that a bench trial might have been wiser in this instance. In all likelihood, however, the lawyers know the judge and the likely jury pool. This will not be the first time a police officer is charged in a high profile case, and many of those resulted in acquittals, so a fair trial is possible.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the defense lawyer seems to present his defense points to the prosecution witnesses, who then disagree with him. The prosecutor follows up and takes the defense lawyer's point apart.

The defense experts will have a hard time bringing up these points later. I've testified a few times and was told that you should not ask a question that you don't know how the witness will answer.

If the defense is going to focus on Floyd dropping dead by coincidence while being restrained, meaning he would have dropped dead at the same time if not restrained in some alternative universe, that's going to be an expert battle. The qualifications of the experts might be a fight.

They have taken the rest of the day off.

[Borderland]

Or perhaps the chief has a genuine problem with what he did?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think I read that Chauvin had some other procedural issues before he choked out Floyd. That would fall on the dept adm for not taking care of business. But I think the city already said they made a mistake and they paid for it.

I was always cognizant of the fact that if I were personally sued for something I did by direction of my supervisor, the county wouldn't be there for my defense. A few times I got legal council from a prosecutor who I knew regarding a county policy. Seems one policy was in violation of state code. I had a letter from the prosecutor that stated such and made my supervisors aware that I needed to conduct myself in a manner as to not bring legal action against myself or the county regardless what code they were operating with. The issue was trespass while conducting official county business. It took a few years but they finally changed the policy.

[blues]

I think I read that Chauvin had some other procedural issues before he choked out Floyd. That would fall on the dept adm for not taking care of business. But I think the city already said they made a mistake and they paid for it.

I was always cognizant of the fact that if I were personally sued for something I did by direction of my supervisor, the county wouldn't be there for my defense. A few times I got legal council from a prosecutor who I knew regarding a county policy. Seems one policy was in violation of state code. I had a letter from the prosecutor that stated such and made my supervisors aware that I needed to conduct myself in a manner as to not bring legal action against myself or the county regardless what code they were operating with. The issue was trespass while conducting official county business. It took a few years but they finally changed the policy.

I've been in the position of refusing to carry out what I considered an unlawful order, and when brought before the Branch Chief to explain myself, the supe had tried to turn the tables by saying that he was the one trying to "stop" me from doing that which I had refused to do. I told the Branch Chief to fire me if he believed the piece of shit.

On another occasion, my partner and I were questioned by the SAC and DSAC as to why a guy who had made a big pest of himself wasn't brought in in handcuffs and bloodied up. My reply to that was "and you'd have backed us up all the way, right?"...to which the reply was crickets.

It took virtually nothing at all for me to have two relatively open and shut internal affairs investigations. (Cleared on both, without substance.) This was 20 years ago or so. Nowadays, it's way worse.

Better have your shit wired tight before you leave the office, precinct, squad room, what have you...because very few folks will have your back when the chips are down.

[Borderland]

This is, sadly, a reasonable concern.

Which leads to the 2nd order effect: a whole bunch of people keeping to themselves who feel like Chauvin—dickhole though he may be—got thrown under the bus in stellar fashion.

Which leads to the 3rd order effect: nobody wanting to police these cities.

And so forth...

Color blind robo cops is the answer. Just send them to the crusher if they malfunction.

[ccmdfd]

Better have your shit wired tight before you leave the office, precinct, squad room, what have you...because very few folks will have your back when the chips are down.

Seems like that should be printed up and then posted in every Squad room, Precinct, office, Etc, Etc.

Sad that it's that way

[TC215]

Not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the defense lawyer seems to present his defense points to the prosecution witnesses, who then disagree with him. The prosecutor follows up and takes the defense lawyer's point apart.

The defense experts will have a hard time bringing up these points later. I've testified a few times and was told that you should not ask a question that you don't know how the witness will answer.

If the defense is going to focus on Floyd dropping dead by coincidence while being restrained, meaning he would have dropped dead at the same time if not restrained in some alternative universe, that's going to be an expert battle. The qualifications of the experts might be a fight.

They have taken the rest of the day off.

I think the defense attorney is doing a pretty good job. There's only so much you can do on cross-- I believe he's saving a lot for his case in chief.


And, FWIW, I'm of the opinion that there's a good chance Floyd would have died on his stomach whether Chauvin was on him or not.

[Totem Polar]

And, FWIW, I'm of the opinion that there's a good chance Floyd would have died on his stomach whether Chauvin was on him or not.

Since it’s the internet, I’ll just chime in and say that I agree with you. Chauvin being a bit of an abomination as a law enforcement officer, and still not being responsible for Floyd’s death are hardly exclusive situations. I suspect that Floyd might have stopped breathing in the Mercedes SUV down the road, or sitting on the can later, or in a Denny’s, or wherever. I suppose we will see, as was noted above, how the battle of expert witnesses pans out.

[Borderland]

Seems like that should be printed up and then posted in every Squad room, Precinct, office, Etc, Etc.

Sad that it's that way

I loved Hill Street Blues. Probably saw every episode.

https://youtu.be/Jmg86CRBBtw

[olstyn]

Concur.

Is it possible you or Lex Luthier can give us a sense of the scale of the area around the courthouse, i.e. is it a downtown building or suburban, or what sort of area it is? Are there specific public areas (a la the "CHOP") where The Mob is already gathering that might be used as touch points? Just trying to get a sense of the lay of the land as it were.

Best of luck. Perhaps time to plan that vacation.

The courthouse is in downtown Minneapolis (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hennepin+County+Courthouse/@44.9757253,-93.2664048,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x9e8f0ddcd8115c59!8m2!3d44.97 57253!4d-93.2664048), and is currently surrounded by National Guard troops, barriers, and razor wire. I haven't been past there recently and don't have any need to go downtown with any frequency, so I don't plan to go until some time after the trial is over. My attitude toward downtown Minneapolis in general has shifted over time. I used to bike through there at night without worry, but I was in my 20s and "invincible" at the time. As I've gotten older/wiser and things have gotten weirder/woker, I've gotten less and less happy about being outdoors there at night.

As far as where "The Mob" is gathering goes, I would expect that in addition to the courthouse, the "autonomous zone" at the intersection where Floyd died will be one of those spots if it's not already, but I haven't had reason to go through that area in over a year and would likely give it a wide berth even if it meant lengthening whatever journey I was on, so I can't give you a firsthand account of what's going on there.

[Coyotesfan97]

I loved Hill Street Blues. Probably saw every episode.

https://youtu.be/Jmg86CRBBtw

That’s signature worthy material right there:cool:

A lot of briefing rooms have a poster in them with that scene and quote.

[olstyn]

I'm going from memory, but wasn't there a "Murder 3" or something similar that would equate to manslaughter in most jurisdictions? Something like manslaughter + 'depraved heart' = Murder 3 but no requirement for premeditation?

Also going from memory, my layman's understanding of the Murder 3 charge from an article I read on it a week or two ago was that it requires intent, but not necessarily intent directed at a specific person. It struck me as very strange, especially given that there is also a Murder 2 charge (intent to kill a specific person, but no premeditation IIRC, vs Murder 1 being intent + premeditation) and a Manslaughter 2 charge (intent not required, but negligence or similar required, again IIRC).

My not-a-lawyer thoughts on the charges really haven't changed much based on each new piece of info I've read - I keep thinking that the negligence angle is likely to result in a conviction on the manslaughter charge unless the defense is able to establish reasonable doubt that Chauvin's actions caused Floyd's death, presumably via the fentanyl/meth speedball angle, but proving intent for the murder charge(s) is going to be difficult.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Given that anyone who testifies will be broadcast on every form of media known to man, I would be shocked if anyone would be willing to testify on his behalf. Can you imagine how you would be ostracized and publicly shamed for even saying he seemed like a 'decent' person?

One of the named (likely) defense expert witnesses - not a character witness - is someone I've known for over thirty years in a professional capacity. Don't know what all he'll be addressing.

Once the "feelz" witnesses are done with, and it seems they are, it'll be interesting to see the "professionals" - the doctors as well as police procedures and use of force experts - on both sides testify. I'm looking forward to what really was taught in the department's training, along with the policies, to be laid out.

[Eric_L]

I think the defense attorney is doing a pretty good job. There's only so much you can do on cross-- I believe he's saving a lot for his case in chief.


And, FWIW, I'm of the opinion that there's a good chance Floyd would have died on his stomach whether Chauvin was on him or not.

And would he have been prone without Chauvin on him? My guess is NO.

[Eric_L]

Since it’s the internet, I’ll just chime in and say that I agree with you. Chauvin being a bit of an abomination as a law enforcement officer, and still not being responsible for Floyd’s death are hardly exclusive situations. I suspect that Floyd might have stopped breathing in the Mercedes SUV down the road, or sitting on the can later, or in a Denny’s, or wherever. I suppose we will see, as was noted above, how the battle of expert witnesses pans out.

Why would he have stopped breathing? He was past the peak onset of the opioids he had taken. Serious question.

[TC215]

And would he have been prone without Chauvin on him? My guess is NO.

Guess all you want. I’ve got a video of a guy dying after being handcuffed and left in the prone position while in a state of excited delirium. It happens.


Why would he have stopped breathing? He was past the peak onset of the opioids he had taken. Serious question.

Positional asphyxiation, which is aggravated by drug use, excited delirium, and violent struggles, among other things.

[Totem Polar]

Why would he have stopped breathing? He was past the peak onset of the opioids he had taken. Serious question.

Do you have a source on that? My understanding is that the blood draw at the hospital the night of his death showed over the accepted lethal dose.

[Eric_L]

Do you have a source on that? My understanding is that the blood draw at the hospital the night of his death showed over the accepted lethal dose.

No I don’t. But I know opioids. He had TOLERANCE. lethal for you and I yes. He was impaired from what I have seen of the trial but nowhere near comatose.

[Eric_L]

Guess all you want. I’ve got a video of a guy dying after being handcuffed and left in the prone position while in a state of excited delirium. It happens.



Positional asphyxiation, which is aggravated by drug use, excited delirium, and violent struggles, among other things.

I was saying he would not have been prone on ground without police intervention.

Your second comment, towards what I asked of Totem, had nothing to do with struggling- that I know of. Read his comment.

[olstyn]

No I don’t. But I know opioids. He had TOLERANCE. lethal for you and I yes. He was impaired from what I have seen of the trial but nowhere near comatose.

There has been some speculation that the meth simultaneously in his system along with the fentanyl may have had something to do with his lack of comatoseness. I'm no expert on drug interactions, but it at least sounds plausible on the surface. There's also been some talk about him popping pills then and there so that the cops wouldn't find them. If that was the case, it would be easy to believe that the fatal dose was just "coming online," so to speak, as Chauvin was kneeling on him. What's true, I don't know, but it seems to me that there's a lot of room for doubt for those of us not in possession of all of the data.

[TC215]

No I don’t. But I know opioids. He had TOLERANCE. lethal for you and I yes. He was impaired from what I have seen of the trial but nowhere near comatose.

According to testimony during the trial, Floyd had been clean for a few weeks before his death, which would have affected his tolerance. You’re also ignoring the fact that he had methamphetamine in his system as well. Meth + fentanyl + fighting with the police = not a good mix.


I was saying he would not have been prone on ground without police intervention.

And there would have been no police intervention if he hadn’t broken the law. Not sure what your point is.

[TC215]

There has been some speculation that the meth simultaneously in his system along with the fentanyl may have had something to do with his lack of comatoseness. I'm no expert on drug interactions, but it at least sounds plausible on the surface. There's also been some talk about him popping pills then and there so that the cops wouldn't find them. If that was the case, it would be easy to believe that the fatal dose was just "coming online," so to speak, as Chauvin was kneeling on him. What's true, I don't know, but it seems to me that there's a lot of room for doubt for those of us not in possession of all of the data.

It’s not been reported in the media much, but they found chewed up pills, and one complete pill, in the back of the police car that put Floyd in, that tested positive for fentanyl and meth— they also had Floyd’s DNA on them.

One of the state’s witnesses also testified that Floyd was foaming at the mouth while he was being restrained on the ground, which is a sign of a fentanyl overdose.

[TheNewbie]

Many years ago, when I had less than a year on the streets, I dealt with a suspicious person. It was HOT, and the guy was clearly a meth head. He was sweating in a way I have never seen someone sweat before. Like the water was all beaded upon him like little goosebumps, all over his exposed torso. Ended up just taking him back to his fathers house, but he was out of it cognitive wise.


Does this story mean anything? Possibly no, but if he and I had fought, how would his body have responded? Drugs and abuse of the body, especially over time, have a cumulative effect that cannot always be replicated in a laboratory. Each person can respond differently to a given set of parameters.


However, we know that what Floyd was doing to his body is a recipe for disaster, and that combined with his long term abuse of his body and other health issues make this far from "black and white", no pun intended.

[olstyn]

It’s not been reported in the media much, but they found chewed up pills, and one complete pill, in the back of the police car that put Floyd in, that tested positive for fentanyl and meth— they also had Floyd’s DNA on them.

That seems consistent with the concept of an addict stuffing pills into his mouth to try to hide them and losing a few, which sounds a whole lot like reasonable doubt that Chauvin killed him to me. Of course, I'm just some guy on the internet, so my opinion is worth about what anybody paid for it.

[JAD]

No I don’t. But I know opioids. He had TOLERANCE. l.

A lot of junkies Kill themselves when they relapse because they try to get back in the pool at the deep end.

[TheNewbie]

That seems consistent with the concept of an addict stuffing pills into his mouth to try to hide them and losing a few, which sounds a whole lot like reasonable doubt that Chauvin killed him to me. Of course, I'm just some guy on the internet, so my opinion is worth about what anybody paid for it.

Hey! It's at least worth 1 "PF Newbie Like".

[willie]

The juvenile center where I worked had untrained employees who killed a teen by improperly restraining him. He would not cease fighting. Then he died. Employee incompetence. It's easy to restrain improperly and have these results.

[TGS]

Sorry if I missed this, but has it been addressed yet why Chauvin continued to restrain Floyd after other officers had reported no pulse?

[blues]

Sorry if I missed this, but has it been addressed yet why Chauvin continued to restrain Floyd after other officers had reported no pulse?

Good question.

(Fear of Zombies? Bad juju, regardless.)

[Erick Gelhaus]

Sorry if I missed this, but has it been addressed yet why Chauvin continued to restrain Floyd after other officers had reported no pulse?

I have not heard anything related to that question.

One of the "interesting" parts of this is that everyone involved and the whole event seem to be viewed as all bad, criminal, illegal - take your pick.

Many may have decided, in their minds, what is the problem spot in the event. And those might be pretty spread out across the timeline. It will be interesting to see which of those are supported by the fact-based testimony. I'm also looking forward to the involved officers' statements - if admitted.

For those who were around for the Rodney King federal case, can you recall how many baton strikes the judge said were good?

(edited for clarity)

[blues]

For those who were around for the Rodney King federal case, can you recall how many baton strikes the judge said were good?

Your remark just reminded me of a privately held conversation I had at the Blade Show in Atlanta years ago with Judge Ito of OJ fame. (He is a knife enthusiast.)

Suffice it to say that despite the outcome, he had strong feelings both personally and professionally about the facts of that case...and what did not come out during trial.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Your remark just reminded me of a privately held conversation I had at the Blade Show in Atlanta years ago with Judge Ito of OJ fame. (He is a knife enthusiast.)

Suffice it to say that despite the outcome, he had strong feelings both personally and professionally about the facts of that case...and what did not come out during trial.

That would have been fascinating. Locally, a four suspect home invasion robbery dope rip trial finished last week. One suspect, er, defendant who is being returned to Texas on murder charges confessed to the whole thing: the conspiracy, felons with guns, the school teacher who had the guns in her luggage, on & on. All four suspects were on video, had the victims' property, etc. However, that confession wasn't allowed in because it would have prejudiced the jury. All four suspects were acquitted.

What is excluded sure is interesting.

[blues]

That would have been fascinating. Locally, a four suspect home invasion robbery dope rip trial finished last week. One suspect, er, defendant who is being returned to Texas on murder charges confessed to the whole thing: the conspiracy, felons with guns, the school teacher who had the guns in her luggage, on & on. All four suspects were on video, had the victims' property, etc. However, that confession wasn't allowed in because it would have prejudiced the jury. All four suspects were acquitted.

What is excluded sure is interesting.

Ain't it the truth.

[Lon]

For those who were around for the Rodney King federal case, can you recall how many baton strikes the judge said were good?

(edited for clarity)

As I recall it was only the last 6 strikes (of the over 50 strikes) that were considered excessive.

[DrkBlue]

Sorry if I missed this, but has it been addressed yet why Chauvin continued to restrain Floyd after other officers had reported no pulse?

Chauvin’s story to tell or not tell, I guess.

I listened to a few hours of the Thursday testimony. Chauvin’s defense attorney was clearly raising the hostile crowd around 38th/Chicago arrest site. The videos from both bystanders and the police body cameras indicate numerous persons, most of whom seemed inclined to use poor grammar and inflammatory words, sharing their opinions about the arrest of Mr. Floyd.

The Prosecution immediately tried to address the defense questions in redirect. The Paramedics were both questioned why they moved the lifeless Floyd from the ground into the ambulance and then drove only three blocks away to stop again in a much safer parking lot. Their answers were the “crowd, but also...”, both of which sounded pretty rehearsed and overly coached. I say that recognizing they had likely been deposed numerous times and likely were named civil defendants at some point.

The Prosecution also stressed that the rowdy crowd should not have been a rationale for the neck restraint when questioning the Minneapolis police chain of command too. The witnesses tried to poo-poo the crowd as being unusually threatening, almost “another day in the hood” vibe. Third Precinct did not sound like a cushy place to work.

Chauvin sounded like the senior officer on scene for the majority of the incident. I could see him arguing he was overtasked with the trainees, multiple detainees and the crowd, which would be a manslaughter play. Please correct if I am wrong.

69764

[JohnO]

No surprise!


Maya Echols, a prominent Black Lives Matter activist, threatened that cities will be "on fire" if Derek Chauvin is not convicted for the death of George Floyd.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1379401279345205248

[blues]

I hope ol' Maya gets as good as she gives. Fair play and all.

[littlejerry]

No surprise!



https://twitter.com/i/status/1379401279345205248

I'm sure she'll be charged with incitement shortly...

[Joe in PNG]

No surprise!
https://twitter.com/i/status/1379401279345205248

It's Not Incitement When A Democrat Does It!

[RJ]

Not following the trial all that closely.

Is there any expectation when it will wrap up?

[Lex Luthier]

Not following the trial all that closely.

Is there any expectation when it will wrap up?

Expectations are that it will be a month or so, but no idea on a sentencing phase if one is called for.

[MDFA]

Put your money on this:

-Chauvin will be convicted at least on manslaughter charge.

-Rioting will occur even if he is convicted.

This. No matter what people will riot, just because they feel they can.

[GyroF-16]

I'm sure she'll be charged with incitement shortly...

That’s the new precedent, right?
BLM will probably impeach her.

[Borderland]

That’s the new precedent, right?
BLM will probably impeach her.

They have to eat their own to stay relevant. Liz Cheney is a good example.

[Joe in PNG]

They have to eat their own to stay relevant. Liz Cheney is a good example.

The Left does love it some purges and show trials.

[Borderland]

The Left does love it some purges and show trials.




Andrew Mark Cuomo? Lets hang that SOB. Last year he was a dem rock star. Useful idiot. Has some issues with women now. Not a democratic ideal.

[Joe in PNG]

Andrew Mark Cuomo? Lets hang that SOB. Last year he was a dem rock star. Useful idiot.

Sadly, the media thinks that the Fla Gov is currently more worthy of their time and effort as a target. They didn't find anything, so they had to make something up to attack him on.

[olstyn]

Andrew Branca’s Law of Self Defense blog coverage of the trial
https://lawofselfdefense.com/blog/

I've been reading that blog - thanks for providing the link. He certainly seems to think that the defense is ripping gaping holes in the prosecution's narrative on cross examination of just about every one of the prosecution's witnesses, and I tend to be persuaded by his analysis. (Admittedly, I'm somewhat predisposed to be persuaded in that direction, but I do think his analysis makes logical sense in terms of what he's saying about reasonable doubt.)

[blues]

I'm not convinced that the (medical) truth will matter or prevail. It's all about appearances, appeasement and avoiding 'the fire next time'. (Which won't be avoided.)

This country has lost the will to seek truth and follow the law.

[fixer]

Interesting point yesterday: They showed video from alternate perspective that actually showed Chauvin kneeling on his shoulder blades, not the neck.

This trial is not Chauvin vs. Floyd, it's not even State of Minn vs Chauvin. It's the media vs reality.

[blues]

Interesting point yesterday: They showed video from alternate perspective that actually showed Chauvin kneeling on his shoulder blades, not the neck.

This trial is not Chauvin vs. Floyd, it's not even State of Minn vs Chauvin. It's the media vs reality.

Reality is fungible in the eyes of the media and those who put agenda and appearance before truth.

[willie]

There is a giant VA hospital in my town, and it has its own police force. When the VA cops are unable to restrain difficult patients, they call real cops. Same was true at my school which had a police dept. Jailers do such in an excellent manner. But sometimes it takes a dozen big corn fed men to restrain one person.

[vcdgrips]

I only "know" what has been in the news re this case. Which means I "know" little. I have read none of the briefing in the case to date and have watched none of the trial.

It is clear the Mr. Branca has strongly held views re the law of self defense and the trial of this matter. I would note the following:

It is a matter of public record that Mr. Branca is licensed in Mass yet his office on his website is listed as being in Colo. That office address is the same as a UPS store in a strip mall.


Nowhere on the "about Andrew Branca" section of the website does Mr. Branca list in what jurisdiction(s) he is admitted, what jurisdictions he has tried or appealed cases nor does he mention any case citations of his successes. There is no mention of prior service as a prosecutor or defense attorney. The website does not list where he went to undergrad or law school. Linkedin does list his educational background https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-branca-6a1a1a9a



Indeed a search of Westlaw , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westlaw reveals no cases where Mr. Branca was an attorney of record at all, paying particular attention to the states of Colo and Mass, along with the applicable federal courts. As a QC check, I ran my name in the Western District of Missouri and the 8th Circuit (my primary geographic practice area and courts) and generated 300+ and 120+ "hits" respectively. I fully acknowledge that Westlaw is not nor does it claim to be a 100% comprehensive database.

I know some of you may have attended training where Mr. Branca was a speaker. If he provided details re his trial/appellate experiences, please share.

Mr. Branca may be spot on with every legal insight to date re this trial i.e. " Will State’s Expert Witness Save This Prosecution?"

How he comes to these conclusions, presumably based on his training and direct experience would be key.

[olstyn]

Snipped for brevity:


...

Indeed a search of Westlaw , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westlaw reveals no cases where Mr. Branca was an attorney of record at all

...

Mr. Branca may be spot on with every legal insight to date re this trial i.e. " Will State’s Expert Witness Save This Prosecution?"

How he comes to these conclusions, presumably based on his training and direct experience would be key.

Interesting. Lack of trial experience would seem to shoot down his credibility, but on the other hand, what he's saying about the case still seems to mostly make sense, which leaves a layman like me wondering what to think.

[blues]

vcdgrips

I don't have access to the site "LinkedIn" but via google from the little I can glean, it looks like it makes mention of the Maurice A. Deane School of Law at Hofstra U.

It also refers to the Greater Denver Area as regards his "practice".

Further, affiant sayeth naught.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-branca-6a1a1a9a

[Guerrero]

vcdgrips I was very interested in your post re: Andrew Branca; thanks.

I've found Andrew McCarthy's analysis at National Review (https://www.nationalreview.com/author/andrew-c-mccarthy/) to be a bit more balanced (if less detailed) than Branca's (full disclosure, McCarthy is a former federal prosecutor who leans pro-police).

[jd950]

I know nothing about the Branca guy. Never heard of him before this thread, as far as I know. In case it matters to anyone, he is not licensed to practice law in Colorado and as far as I can tell, never has been.

He does appear to be licensed in Mass., but Mass. shows his address as Castle Rock, Colorado, and the address is, indeed, a mail box store. So make of that what you will.

[blues]

I know nothing about the Branca guy. Never heard of him before this thread, as far as I know. In case it matters to anyone, he is not licensed to practice law in Colorado and as far as I can tell, never has been.

He does appear to be licensed in Mass., but Mass. shows his address as Castle Rock, Colorado, and the address is, indeed, a mail box store. So make of that what you will.

I found his book, (most recent edition), to be useful.

I have found his online persona, however, and the way he runs his website to be off-putting...to the extent I no longer visit and haven't in some time.

[Lex Luthier]

I found his book, (most recent edition), to be useful.

I have found his online persona, however, and the way he runs his website to be off-putting...to the extent I no longer visit and haven't in some time.

He was the guy who got into the online spat with "Super Dave" Harrington. Neither came off particularly well in that dustup.
Now, AB also writes for Legal Insurrection, and I suspect that the owners of that site are reasonably careful about their content. William Jacobson seems to be a canny law professor.

[blues]

He was the guy who got into the online spat with "Super Dave" Harrington. Neither came off particularly well in that dustup.
Now, AB also writes for Legal Insurrection, and I suspect that the owners of that site are reasonably careful about their content. William Jacobson seems to be a canny law professor.

He has also been in a few video chats offered up by CCW Safe with attorney Don West.

[randyho]

Sadly, the media thinks that the Fla Gov is currently more worthy of their time and effort as a target. They didn't find anything, so they had to make something up to attack him on.
With no idea they're pushing him into the whitehouse.

[UNK]

There is a giant VA hospital in my town, and it has its own police force. When the VA cops are unable to restrain difficult patients, they call real cops. Same was true at my school which had a police dept. Jailers do such in an excellent manner. But sometimes it takes a dozen big corn fed men to restrain one person.

Ive never seen them restrain anyone but they do have a wall for Officers who have lost their lives in the line of duty.

[willie]

Here most are mental patients.

[BehindBlueI's]

Back on topic, please. If you want to discuss the politics of it or various players, feel free to start another thread but this one should be for the trial and it's affects on law enforcement.

[Lon]

I just finished listening to all the testimony of the MPD UoF expert. I think Nelson did a good job on his cross examination. I wasn’t super impressed with the states performance. I was extremely interested in listening to the testimony about the UoF policy. Made me think about being on the stand defending our policy or explaining it. Good food for thought. We don’t have a statewide policy like I believe MN has. And we don’t use a continuum. And I wrote ours so I’ve got no one to blame if it’s FUBAR 😂.

Gonna try to listen to the “medical coordinator” before I go to bed. I thought it was interesting that the defense decided on calling her as a defense witness after she was done testifying for the state the other day. I’m dying to see how that goes.

[Guerrero]

Very good article from McCarthy today (@BehindBlueI's with possible implications for LEO's)

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/04/chauvin-trial-police-brutality-or-failure-of-care/

[Lon]

Very good article from McCarthy today (@BehindBlueI's with possible implications for LEO's)

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/04/chauvin-trial-police-brutality-or-failure-of-care/

Good article. Thanks for the link.

[Jeff22]

That’s an interesting article

[jd950]

I agree...an interesting article. I may be wrong, but my take is that whether he deserves it or not (and I am not expressing any opinion on that here), Chauvin is likely to be sacrificed for the "greater good" of the city and the department and that will drive the outcome of the trial. Jurors fearing reprisals or at least disapproval of friends and family if they come up with the "wrong" result is probably a factor as well.

I would hope that justice will prevail, but in my experience, the best way to corrupt a criminal trial is to subject it to massive media attention and inject "public interest" type significance to it. Too many people then have their future career choices, media appearances, book deals, etc., etc. riding on the outcome. Not to mention threats to burn down cities.

Some people say I am cynical. I suspect they are at least partially correct.

I apologize for not knowing this; I am not really following this thing closely. Am I correct in my understanding that the official report from the ME was that the death was homicide?

[Joe in PNG]

As per the AP:

George Floyd died from a lack of oxygen, expert tells Derek Chauvin's trial (https://www.9news.com.au/world/george-floyd-died-from-lack-of-oxygen-expert-says-derek-chauvin-trial/da960a4d-d8de-4112-b812-7a651ca7b717)


George Floyd died of a lack of oxygen from being pinned facedown on the pavement with his hands cuffed behind him, a medical expert testified Thursday at former Officer Derek Chauvin's murder trial.
Floyd's breathing while he was being held down by Chauvin and other officers was too shallow to take in enough oxygen, which in turn damaged his brain and caused an abnormal heart rhythm that made his heart stop, said Dr. Martin Tobin, a lung and critical care specialist at the Edward Hines, Jr. VA Hospital and Loyola University's medical school in Chicago.
He took the stand as part of an effort by prosecutors to establish that it was Chauvin's actions — not Floyd's illegal drug use and underlying health conditions, as the defence contends — that killed the 46-year-old Black man last May

[BillSWPA]

Some very damning testimony today from a physician who is testifying as an expert without compensation.

https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/derek-chauvin-trial-doctor-oxygen/2021/04/08/id/1016869/

[BehindBlueI's]

Very good article from McCarthy today (@BehindBlueI's with possible implications for LEO's)

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/04/chauvin-trial-police-brutality-or-failure-of-care/

I largely agree, and it's what I've said from the beginning. Holding him Floyd face down for so long was against current training and I can't think of a justification for it. It's both excessive force and failure to render aid. I don't think it's Murder, but it might be MN's Murder 3. We don't have a 'depraved heart' standard, so I'm not entirely sure how one proves it, but if a callous disregard for life qualifies I think you might sell a jury on holding someone down after they don't have a pulse as callous disregard.

[RJ]

With regard to the (3?) charges against Ofc. Chauvin, can somebody summarize what the possible sentencing outcomes are for each, if guilty, and who decides the sentence? I assume they are a range of prison sentences involved?

I’m also confused, since I don’t know how this works, but why is he charged with three varying levels of crime?

[blues]

With regard to the (3?) charges against Ofc. Chauvin, can somebody summarize what the possible sentencing outcomes are for each, if guilty, and who decides the sentence? I assume they are a range of prison sentences involved?

I’m also confused, since I don’t know how this works, but why is he charged with three varying levels of crime?

I won't comment on the first, but as to the second, this is often done where the prosecution hedges its bets in the event that the jury does not feel that the elements for one or more of the charges were met (beyond a reasonable doubt).

Gives the prosecution a greater opportunity to walk away with a win, if not the one they were striving for.

(And may or may not reduce the number of dumpster fires to come.)

[javanomad]

I largely agree, and it's what I've said from the beginning. Holding him Floyd face down for so long was against current training and I can't think of a justification for it. It's both excessive force and failure to render aid. I don't think it's Murder, but it might be MN's Murder 3. We don't have a 'depraved heart' standard, so I'm not entirely sure how one proves it, but if a callous disregard for life qualifies I think you might sell a jury on holding someone down after they don't have a pulse as callous disregard.

COMPLETELY absolutely disagree

Look... if modern social media has not encouraged you to be skeptical of videos promoted on social media. I can't help you. You are what certain German's would refer to as useful ID10Ts. But anyone in LE should be VERY skeptical of all social media daily outrage virus.

There is a reason these are MEANT to evoke emotions not reason.

I'm pretty serious about that accusation by the way. Seriously you should check your cognition on this one.

Video on badge cam shows that Chauvin may have been on Floyd's back and shoulder blade NOT on his neck. In fact the prosecution (telegraphing that video evidence will show the knee to neck meme was false??? is now saying "Neck Area" in an attempt to conflate where Chauvin was kneeling). So... what about if Chauvin WAS NOT on the Perps neck?

Also Floyd himself REQUESTED to be on the ground NOT held in a squad car. Granted he was out of his mind on Illegal Drugs he crammed in his mouth to evade drugs being seized by the cops... but in any case. Floyd REQUESTED DEMANDED to be on the ground. What do you want Ofc Chauvin to do? Ask Floyd nicely to stay put.

The preference was for Floyd to be IN THE BACK OF THE POLICE VEHICLE. And if all these Officers could look into the future, they would have PUT his A$$ in the car and let him OD in there... not on the street where someone would have to have stayed on top of him to keep him put.

This was a tragedy of epic proportions but it's a lock that the Perp being 6'6 figured into EVERYONES thinking here.

To say from a Police Arm chair... Oh gosh Ofc Chauvin is guilty of X, Y Z offenses does NOT account for making decisions in real time. For example, there is a near certainty that ALL 4 officers did not KNOW Floyd had ingested his deadly overdose of drugs. Drugs that likely killed him (regardless of police actions).


A very vocal and very angry crowd was shouting at the officers as they were merely trying to arrest Floyd. Question to you Blue Arm Chair... do you REALLY want Perps to think they can resist arrest to the point of getting a crowd around and THEN claim they Can't Breathe? EVERY SINGLE TIME?

LE needs to get on the program or believe me the Populace WILL NOT support you. Normies DO NOT SEE the Floyd encounters that happen every day. They see the videos. LE people NEED to stop saying fellow officers are guilty of X,Y or Z if they have been on the beat. If so they KNOW these things don't always go smooth and perps ALWAYS try things.

Just as Floyd did. The true tragedy is that if Floyd had cooperated right away he WOULD likely have been alive today. His family would be millions poorer... but still alive.

[WobblyPossum]

None of that addresses the fact @BehindBlueI’s is correct in that keeping a suspect on his stomach while you place your weight on his torso for that long is against currently understood training and best practices. One of the trainee officers mentioned to Chauvin that he suspected Floyd was experiencing a case of excited delirium and Chauvin replied that what why he had him on his stomach. That is contrary to all training I’ve ever received for suspected ED cases.

[Totem Polar]

That is contrary to all training I’ve ever received for suspected ED cases.

I find that easy to believe. The question arises: what was Chauvin’s training? I’m asking seriously; we had a high-profile case in my area that had an ED component in a restraint death, and it generated a lot of discussion around best practices, so I’m curious if anyone has seen anything concrete on the training given to MPD, because I don’t have any idea, myself.

[BehindBlueI's]

COMPLETELY absolutely disagree

Look... if modern social media has not encouraged you to be skeptical of videos promoted on social media. I can't help you. You are what certain German's would refer to as useful ID10Ts. But anyone in LE should be VERY skeptical of all social media daily outrage virus.

There is a reason these are MEANT to evoke emotions not reason.



Cool. Check the Code of Conduct or your time here will be very short.

As I've mentioned, I've been in this situation. I had a fight with a guy who was bigger than me, hyped up on drugs, and uncontrollable. He broke my hand in the fight and I was in a cast for 8 weeks afterward. Not I broke my hand punching him, he broke my hand by forcing my thumb down against my forearm. It was a very serious fight with two of us on him. He died after the fight.

I was, of course, investigated and sued. You know what I was charged with? Nothing. You know what I and my city paid out? Nothing. You know why? Because I had a *personal* recorder, well before we were issued body cameras, that proved I made him lay on his side and held him on his side as best I could while injured until medics got there. The sheriff's dept, however, paid out. They put him on his stomach while cuffed and he died of excited delirium/positional asphyxiation.

Once someone is reasonably controlled and in your custody, it's your duty to attempt to care for them. Even if they are assholes. Even if they tried to kill you. Even if they are overdosing. Social media outrage has nothing to do with it. Doing the job legally and ethically does.

[smokeman]

https://www.startribune.com/defense-expert-says-derek-chauvin-was-justified-in-his-actions-before-george-floyd-died/600045363/

expert witness for the defense saying chauvin was justified

[ccmdfd]

So for those who have been watching, have the medical experts for the defense been as good as the medical experts for the prosecution?

The MSM coverage is so slanted I can't watch.

[Jim Watson]

The defense had not called a medical consultant the last time I looked, they were kicking around use of force policy. Maybe something this afternoon.

[Guerrero]

So for those who have been watching, have the medical experts for the defense been as good as the medical experts for the prosecution?

The MSM coverage is so slanted I can't watch.

Andrew McCarthy (no liberal, he) over at National Review seems to think that the defense is getting its ass handed to it:

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/chauvin-defense-expert-destroyed-on-the-stand/

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/04/chauvins-stumbling-defense-case/

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My non-legal opinion is that the last defense medical examiner was counter productive. He basically pushed the coincidence theory based on Floyd's history as first option. Then he implied contributory factors - it was a mix, but despite it being a mix, if you were part of the mix, you are on trial for that. The prosecutor asked if the death was purely coincidence . It was not answered but then they adjourned, so that statement was the last thing the jury heard and will stick in their memory.

However, he also mentioned carbon monoxide being a possible cause. Why say that (of course, it could be true) - the reason Floyd was exposed to such was being kept there for the period of time. Uh?

The defense should have known he would say that. Now, if he honestly believed that - of course, he is bound to say that - do you want to call him then?

I've testified a little bit and we went over what I was to testify to. If a factor was counterproductive, you don't ask that. I've told lawyers that factor X is contrary to their story, so don't ask that. I'll answer truthfully what I am asked. If they ask X, I will truthfully speak to that. That really pissed one off. You can get folks to say different things if the price is right, sigh.

Listened to the podcast - made sense to me that the defense is in trouble.

[tjmitchem]

So for those who have been watching, have the medical experts for the defense been as good as the medical experts for the prosecution?

The MSM coverage is so slanted I can't watch.

Watching it all day, my opinion is that the medical experts for the defense are being less than effective. The prosecution seems to have a very tight gameplan.

[Joe in PNG]

Watching it all day, my opinion is that the medical experts for the defense are being less than effective. The prosecution seems to have a very tight gameplan.

To use a former member's memorable phraseology, the prosecution is selling grilled prime steak, while the defense is offering boiled allycat.

[tjmitchem]

To use a former member's memorable phraseology, the persecution is selling grilled prime steak, while the defense is offering boiled allycat.

That's what it looks like.

[Totem Polar]

In case anyone is still looking, it looks like both sides have wrapped, and Chauvin took the 5th.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/live-updates-derek-chauvin-murder-trial-continues-thursday

Closing and deliberation start Monday.

[AKDoug]

In case anyone is still looking, it looks like both sides have wrapped, and Chauvin took the 5th.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/live-updates-derek-chauvin-murder-trial-continues-thursday

Closing and deliberation start Monday.

Fuck. I was hoping this would drag out for another couple weeks. I fly to Washington D.C. on Tuesday and back a week later. Into Reagan and out of Baltimore. I really hope the whole place isn't burning.

[hufnagel]

The aftermath of this will be spectacular.

[Totem Polar]

The aftermath of this will be spectacular.

I guess we will see what we will see. Nothing would surprise me.

Well, I mean, a pardon from Biden would surprise me, but short of that, almost anything is on the table in terms of predictions.

It’s popcorn and rye Manhattan time.

[Caballoflaco]

A guilty verdict will be presented to the court on Monday afternoon, before jurors leave the court one last time.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Regardless of one's thoughts on this case, if charged with a crime Americans are entitled to a competent defense - including expert witnesses. Crap like this could well have a chilling effect on that going forward.

* * *

Community Message: Blood Vandalism to House and Santa Rosa Statue

Saturday April 17, 2021, 5:46 PM
Santa Rosa Police Department

Community: Blood Vandalism to House and Santa Rosa Statue

On Saturday, April 17th, 2021 at 3:07 a.m., Santa Rosa Police responded to a residence in west Santa Rosa that had just been vandalized. The victim called Santa Rosa Police after they were awakened by a group of subjects who threw a pig's head on their front porch and splattered blood on the front of their house. The subjects, dressed in all black, ran away as the victim called the police department.

Officers arrived to find the front of the victim's house smeared with what appeared to be animal blood and a decapitated pig's head near the front porch. The vandalism to the victim's house exceeded $400 making the crime committed by the suspects a felony vandalism. The victim's house was the previous residence of Mr.Barry Brodd. Mr. Brodd recently testified for the defense in Minneapolis Police Officer Derrick Chauvin's trial. It appears the suspects in this vandalism were targeting Mr. Brodd for his testimony. Mr. Brodd has not lived at the residence for a number of years and is no longer a resident of California. Because Mr. Brodd no longer lives in the city of Santa Rosa, it appears the victim was falsely targeted.

Approximately 45 minutes later, a large hand statue in front of the Santa Rosa Plaza mall was vandalized with a similar substance, suspected to be animal blood. The suspects also left a sign in front of the statue which had a picture of a pig and read "Oink Oink." The suspects were seen fleeing the area and matched the descriptions of the suspects who vandalized the house.

Santa Rosa Police Chief Rainer Navarro issued a statement on April 13th following Mr. Brodd's testimony during the Derek Chauvin trial, and stated, "Mr. Brodd's comments do not reflect the values and beliefs of the Santa Rosa Police Department." (View Chief Navarro's April 13th statement: https://srcity.org/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=1416)

The Santa Rosa Police Department is currently conducting further investigation to identify the suspects in these vandalisms. Anyone who witnessed the incident or has information that would assist with the investigation is encouraged to contact SRPD through our online Tip Line: www.srcity.org/CrimeTips.

Media inquiries may be directed to Lieutenant Jeneane Kucker at (707) ...

(Notice the agency head's commentary)

[Nephrology]

So for those who have been watching, have the medical experts for the defense been as good as the medical experts for the prosecution?

The MSM coverage is so slanted I can't watch.

FWIW, as someone who is not a cardiologist, I thought the prosecution's expert witness (cardiologist out of Northwestern) was kind of... misleading. I thought that Hennepin Co's ME was a much more even handed witness. The cardiologist:


""Number one, he had hypertension, high blood pressure. Number two, it appeared to me that he may have suffered from anxiety. And, three, it looked like he also struggled with substance abuse," the doctor said.

[...]

"Mr. George Floyd died from a cardiopulmonary arrest. It was caused by low oxygen levels and those low oxygen levels were induced by the prone restraint and positional asphyxiation that he was subjected to."

Meanwhile, in addition to the effect of the fentanyl on his cardiac output, Floyd also had really significant coronary artery disease and a touch of the old LVH from the sounds of it:

https://i.ibb.co/GT2GTVt/heart.jpg


I am not even close to qualified to evaluate this myself, but the ME appears to believe that the combination of fentanyl intoxication and significant heart disease may likely have contributed to his death in conjunction with the effect of his restraint by Chauvin. 90% occlusion of the RCA seems like it would at least cause stable angina. I can imagine how in the setting of tachycardia from stress, the combined effects of his LVH and fentanyl might drop his coronary perfusion pressure below what he needed to adequately perfuse myocardium downstream of all these atheromas, particularly given Chauvin leaning on his neck. I can easily understand how this combination of factors might lead to lethal dysrhythmia. It seems to me at least plausible that these underlying conditions contributed to his death in some impossible to quantify way, which was also the conclusion of the Hennepin Co ME, but likewise impossible to state with any certainty.

That's all my 100% amateur speculation obviously; I don't pretend to be more qualified than any of the expert witnesses called by either defense or prosecution. Quite the opposite. It just seems a bit reckless for the cardiologist to come out and say that his fairly significant CAD and fentanyl intoxication had nothing to do with his death whatsoever.

[AMC]

Regardless of one's thoughts on this case, if charged with a crime Americans are entitled to a competent defense - including expert witnesses. Crap like this could well have a chilling effect on that going forward.

* * *

Community Message: Blood Vandalism to House and Santa Rosa Statue

Saturday April 17, 2021, 5:46 PM
Santa Rosa Police Department

Community: Blood Vandalism to House and Santa Rosa Statue

On Saturday, April 17th, 2021 at 3:07 a.m., Santa Rosa Police responded to a residence in west Santa Rosa that had just been vandalized. The victim called Santa Rosa Police after they were awakened by a group of subjects who threw a pig's head on their front porch and splattered blood on the front of their house. The subjects, dressed in all black, ran away as the victim called the police department.

Officers arrived to find the front of the victim's house smeared with what appeared to be animal blood and a decapitated pig's head near the front porch. The vandalism to the victim's house exceeded $400 making the crime committed by the suspects a felony vandalism. The victim's house was the previous residence of Mr.Barry Brodd. Mr. Brodd recently testified for the defense in Minneapolis Police Officer Derrick Chauvin's trial. It appears the suspects in this vandalism were targeting Mr. Brodd for his testimony. Mr. Brodd has not lived at the residence for a number of years and is no longer a resident of California. Because Mr. Brodd no longer lives in the city of Santa Rosa, it appears the victim was falsely targeted.

Approximately 45 minutes later, a large hand statue in front of the Santa Rosa Plaza mall was vandalized with a similar substance, suspected to be animal blood. The suspects also left a sign in front of the statue which had a picture of a pig and read "Oink Oink." The suspects were seen fleeing the area and matched the descriptions of the suspects who vandalized the house.

Santa Rosa Police Chief Rainer Navarro issued a statement on April 13th following Mr. Brodd's testimony during the Derek Chauvin trial, and stated, "Mr. Brodd's comments do not reflect the values and beliefs of the Santa Rosa Police Department." (View Chief Navarro's April 13th statement: https://srcity.org/CivicAlerts.aspx?AID=1416)

The Santa Rosa Police Department is currently conducting further investigation to identify the suspects in these vandalisms. Anyone who witnessed the incident or has information that would assist with the investigation is encouraged to contact SRPD through our online Tip Line: www.srcity.org/CrimeTips.

Media inquiries may be directed to Lieutenant Jeneane Kucker at (707) ...

(Notice the agency head's commentary)

Was Brodd formerly SRPD? If not, why in the hell would the Chief make such a pandering, unnecessary comment?

[Erick Gelhaus]

Was Brodd formerly SRPD? If not, why in the hell would the Chief make such a pandering, unnecessary comment?

He was with that agency from the early 80s to '04 or so.

[AMC]

He was with that agency from the early 80s to '04 or so.

Got it. Well, at least there's a nexus then. Still an unnecessary comment, in my opinion. But politicians gonna politic.

[olstyn]

*sigh*

This is not helping: https://townhall.com/tipsheet/rebeccadowns/2021/04/18/as-maxine-waters-calls-for-riots-in-the-streets-minnesota-national-guardsmen-shot-at-n2588123

[Guerrero]

*sigh*

This is not helping: https://townhall.com/tipsheet/rebeccadowns/2021/04/18/as-maxine-waters-calls-for-riots-in-the-streets-minnesota-national-guardsmen-shot-at-n2588123

Nor is this:

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/pigs-head-blood-left-at-former-home-of-chauvin-defense-witness/

[ccmdfd]

*sigh*

This is not helping: https://townhall.com/tipsheet/rebeccadowns/2021/04/18/as-maxine-waters-calls-for-riots-in-the-streets-minnesota-national-guardsmen-shot-at-n2588123

Maxine and "helping " are rarely used together, unless of course you are talking about destroying the country.

Oh, and edited to add, while I know this isn't the politics section, how is it she can say that and get away with it when Trump was impeached for reportedly inciting a riot

[CWM11B]

Chauvin is doomed. I'll bet money he won't live to see 2022. If he goes to prison, he wont last a week. And to hell with that chief in Santa Rosa. Unless Brood is proven to have committed perjury, then he gave sworn, truthful testimony that was found admissable in a court of law. I guess SRPDs "values" dont include adherence to " Do you swear the testiomy you are about to give is true". Cool. I guess the chief probably isn't down with their oath of office, either. Like I needed another reason to never set foot in CA again...

[luckyman]

*sigh*

This is not helping: https://townhall.com/tipsheet/rebeccadowns/2021/04/18/as-maxine-waters-calls-for-riots-in-the-streets-minnesota-national-guardsmen-shot-at-n2588123

Sigh. I’d like to apologize yet again on behalf of the 1/3 of Californians that still have a grain of sense in their heads, for unleashing people like this on the rest of the country.

[vcdgrips]

"If he goes to prison, he wont last a week."

While I would not want to prognosticate long term nor give up any inside baseball, he would last more than a week so long as he was not in general population. DC initially going to gen pop in the "week" time frame would be extraordinarily atypical for any high profile defendant, let alone a former LEO. Ergo the week plus opinion I hold.

YMMV Greatly.

[CWM11B]

No one is going be to be in a hurry to do this poor bastard favors. And the sooner he gets shanked, the quicker all the pesky appeals go away. IMHO opinion, his only chance is a mistrial, whereupon he un-asses this country to one with no extradition treaty with the US before he can be recharged and arrested.

[RJ]

Closing and deliberation start Monday.

Do y’all think there is a chance of a verdict tonight?

[blues]

Do y’all think there is a chance of a verdict tonight?

Even if there were, it wouldn't be read tonight...

Daylight hours will be a little easier to keep the peace.

[Totem Polar]

Then there’s this, from CNN of all outlets:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/judge-derek-chauvin-maxine-waters-mistrial-appeal/index.html

Maxine Waters really needs to stay home more, and talk less, as a general rule.

[camel]

Then there’s this, from CNN of all outlets:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/judge-derek-chauvin-maxine-waters-mistrial-appeal/index.html

Maxine Waters really needs to stay home more, and talk less, as a general rule.

Her constituents applaud her. She should stay in her own state and not dabble in politics that do not concern her constituents. Fat chance of that. There’s money to be made.

[Jim Watson]

Do y’all think there is a chance of a verdict tonight?


I think they will sit on it a while to give the impression of thoughtful consideration of a verdict already given them.

Likewise the judge will have to look like he is thinking hard to pick the maximum sentence already decided.

[LittleLebowski]

Then there’s this, from CNN of all outlets:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/judge-derek-chauvin-maxine-waters-mistrial-appeal/index.html

Maxine Waters really needs to stay home more, and talk less, as a general rule.

She’s a bright one.

[vcdgrips]

"Likewise the judge will have to look like he is thinking hard to pick the maximum sentence already decided."

As per the article below I found with 30 seconds of google quoting a retired judge in MN-should a guilty verdict be rendered by the jury, the sentencing comes after a pre sentence investigation has been completed. In other words some weeks in the future, post a verdict of guilt if reached.

I confess, I did not perform any indep legal research to confirm. The timing of sentencing as per the article does comport with that of the federal system and many states.



https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-death-possible-outcomes/89-feb6e936-317a-4e33-84ac-9640f6072be9

[ccmdfd]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/judge-derek-chauvin-maxine-waters-mistrial-appeal/index.html

Judge in Derek Chauvin trial says Rep. Maxine Waters' comments may be grounds for appeal

Quote from the article:

"I'll give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned," Judge Peter Cahill told defense attorney Eric Nelson on Monday."

[Jim Watson]

Yes, I know. I don't know why they drag it out with sentencing investigations and hearings but it won't affect the end result.

[Guerrero]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/judge-derek-chauvin-maxine-waters-mistrial-appeal/index.html

Judge in Derek Chauvin trial says Rep. Maxine Waters' comments may be grounds for appeal

Quote from the article:

"I'll give you that Congresswoman Waters may have given you something on appeal that may result in this whole trial being overturned," Judge Peter Cahill told defense attorney Eric Nelson on Monday."

So... wait...

Rep. Waters' comment may bring about the very thing that she was there to keep from happening?


That's like time-travel-level messed up.

[wvincent]

So... wait...

Rep. Waters' comment may bring about the very thing that she was there to keep from happening?


That's like time-travel-level messed up.

Yeah, but it won't be her fault.
That blame will get thrown at the State's Attorney for ineptness, everybody who testified for the defense, the jury for not being able see to how this was pure murder, the Judge for being white, and the whole judicial system which is stacked against all minorities.
Never gonna be "Aunties" fault.

[Joe in PNG]

From America's New Newspaper of Record*:

In Closing Argument, Prosecutor Tearfully Addresses Each Juror By Name, Phone Number, And Street Address (https://babylonbee.com/news/in-closing-argument-prosecutor-tearfully-addresses-each-juror-by-name-phone-number-and-street-address)


MINNEAPOLIS, MN—Prosecutor Steve Schleicher delivered powerful closing arguments today in the Derek Chauvin trial. In one especially touching moment, he made sure to individually address every member of the jury by name, phone number, and street address.

"I call on you, [redacted] whose phone number is [redacted] and who lives at [redacted]," he said through tears. "Do the right thing and pronounce the defendant guilty. And you [redacted], who can be reached at [redacted] and usually comes home each night at 6pm, I implore you to do what's best for you and your adorable 2-year-old boy. It would be a shame if Antifa found out where he goes to school."


*The Babylon Bee, a sarcasm site

[Guerrero]

From America's New Newspaper of Record:

In Closing Argument, Prosecutor Tearfully Addresses Each Juror By Name, Phone Number, And Street Address (https://babylonbee.com/news/in-closing-argument-prosecutor-tearfully-addresses-each-juror-by-name-phone-number-and-street-address)

Doxing? Veiled threats?

[Joe in PNG]

Doxing? Veiled threats?

Babylon Bee- sarcasm, but not far from reality.

[Jim Watson]

Looks like another old fool in government past her shelf life.

[Guerrero]

Babylon Bee- sarcasm, but not far from reality.

Whew. Didn't realize it was the Bee, because I could actually see that happening.

[Totem Polar]

From America's New Newspaper of Record:

In Closing Argument, Prosecutor Tearfully Addresses Each Juror By Name, Phone Number, And Street Address (https://babylonbee.com/news/in-closing-argument-prosecutor-tearfully-addresses-each-juror-by-name-phone-number-and-street-address)

LoL!

So true.

Like those poor MoFos who’s only connection to all this was buying the house that one of the expert witnesses for the defense used to live in several years ago... they got a bunch of blood, vandalism, and severed pig’s head for their unwitting folly of living in the pathway of the doxxing steamroller.

[Joe in PNG]

LoL!

So true.

Like those poor MoFos who’s only connection to all this was buying the house that one of the expert witnesses for the defense used to live in several years ago... they got a bunch of blood, vandalism, and severed pig’s head for their unwitting folly of living in the pathway of the doxxing steamroller.

Or another lawyer in Mnn with the same name as the defense attorney (https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/04/mob-rule-in-minnesota.php) getting threats (scroll down).

[littlejerry]

So... wait...

Rep. Waters' comment may bring about the very thing that she was there to keep from happening?


That's like time-travel-level messed up.

It's almost like she wants riots and a race war.

[ccmdfd]

Looks like another old fool in government past her shelf life.

Oh she's well past expired. She's more in the rancid stage now.

[Totem Polar]

Or another lawyer in Mnn with the same name as the defense attorney (https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/04/mob-rule-in-minnesota.php) getting threats (scroll down).

Christ. What is wrong with people.

This.... this is why I am increasingly isolationist in my own lifestyle.

[Gadfly]

I largely agree, and it's what I've said from the beginning. Holding him Floyd face down for so long was against current training and I can't think of a justification for it. It's both excessive force and failure to render aid. I don't think it's Murder, but it might be MN's Murder 3. We don't have a 'depraved heart' standard, so I'm not entirely sure how one proves it, but if a callous disregard for life qualifies I think you might sell a jury on holding someone down after they don't have a pulse as callous disregard.

Agreed, before the cuffs are applied, you have some latitude on what a “reasonable officer” would do. But once the cuffs are applied, you own the suspect and their well being.

I think if Chauvin was alone, we would have a different trial at play. Floyd was 6’4-6’6” tall depending on source, and a solid 224lbs per the medical examiner. Chauvin is 5’7-5’9” depending on the source, and 140lbs. Even cuffed and on the ground, he could probably buck and roll Cauvin off of him. But with 3 total officers on him? It gets real difficult to articulate the pin. I was waiting for either hearing an “overdose” cause of death, or possibly a MPD training manual that says to fully restrain a person who is high. Neither of those things came up at trail. So it’s not looking good for him...

Positional asphyxia is a real thing. So is excited delirium. You could articulate the restraint for a couple of minutes, but once he has obviously stopped struggling and you have multiple back up officers, rolling him on his side is the safe play.

Side note: One thing I actually hated at Fletc, but appreciate now, was being placed in full leg shackles and cuffs. We had to be walked all around the class building, up and down long flights of stairs, into and out of cars and transport vans. The point was for us to feel how hard it is to do simple things in those restraints. You can’t get mad at the suspect for not “hurrying up”. It’s difficult to do things while restrained. I have been cuffed and knelt on many hundreds of times as a trainer. I could always say “out of role” and have it stop if someone was going too rough. It gives you a better idea of how much force you can use, once you have been on the receiving end of it...

I don’t thing Chauvin went out and committed intentional murder. But after a “meh” criminal defense, he better hope for manslaughter. My guess is we are just left wondering if it’s 5-10 for manslaughter or 20-40 for murder2.

I am guessing the other 3 officer are going to fair much better. But Chauvin is most likely going away.

[Borderland]

Then there’s this, from CNN of all outlets:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/judge-derek-chauvin-maxine-waters-mistrial-appeal/index.html

Maxine Waters really needs to stay home more, and talk less, as a general rule.

I said from the beginning he wouldn't get a fair trial. I haven't really scrutinized what he did and have no opinion about a guilty verdict, but this is unbelievable.

The defense attorney has it right. The jury should have been sequestered. How does a jury separate the media reports, BS coming from people like Waters and not have a biased opinion?

It would be sweet justice if Chauvin walked because of her big mouth. They ought to arrest her for inciting a riot.

[GyroF-16]

I said from the beginning he wouldn't get a fair trial. I haven't really scrutinized what he did and have no opinion about a guilty verdict, but this is unbelievable.

The defense attorney has it right. The jury should have been sequestered. How does a jury separate the media reports, BS coming from people like Waters and not have a biased opinion?

It would be sweet justice if Chauvin walked because of her big mouth. They ought to arrest her for inciting a riot.

Are you F#$king kidding me - the jury wasn’t sequestered? It correct, I didn’t know that. That’s just insane.

Between that and Waters’ statements, I can definitely imagine grounds for appeal. (Not a lawyer, BTW).
And still wondering why a bench trial wasn’t the smart play here...

[camel]

Whatever Chauvin did he made himself famous. The standard of care applied while hard as hell to quantify, Resulted in the death of a Citizen,.

[blues]

Are you F#$king kidding me - the jury wasn’t sequestered? It correct, I didn’t know that. That’s just insane.

Between that and Waters’ statements, I can definitely imagine grounds for appeal. (Not a lawyer, BTW).
And still wondering why a bench trial wasn’t the smart play here...

They were not sequestered during the trial. I believe the defense had requested just that...(I may be in error, but I believe I heard him make such a remark to the judge in the absence of the jurors once they were dismissed to deliberate.)

[Lon]

A defendant is entitled to a fair trial. I haven’t seen anything that leads me to believe this has been a fair trial. I can’t believe the judge has done some of the things he’s done.

[Joe in PNG]

Having recently re-read a couple of books* about the Civil Rights movement in 40's-60's Fl, and the nastiness the Jim Crow South showed to black people in general, I'm struck by the similarities I'm seeing. After all, it's basically a modern, woke version of cross burnings, night rides, and black mask instead of white hoods.


*"Devil in the Grove" and "Beneath a Ruthless Sun"

[okie john]

Judge Cahill did point out that Rep. Waters may have given the defense cause for appeal. He also said that she needs to STFU.

It's sad that weak admonitions are about all that we can hope for in these dark days.


Okie John

[trailrunner]

Having recently re-read a couple of books* about the Civil Rights movement in 40's-60's Fl, and the nastiness the Jim Crow South showed to black people in general, I'm struck by the similarities I'm seeing. After all, it's basically a modern, woke version of cross burnings, night rides, and black mask instead of white hoods.


I told my wife that this trial is in some ways a modern version of Tom Robinson's trial.

[fixer]

Agreed, before the cuffs are applied, you have some latitude on what a “reasonable officer” would do. But once the cuffs are applied, you own the suspect and their well being.

I think if Chauvin was alone, we would have a different trial at play. Floyd was 6’4-6’6” tall depending on source, and a solid 224lbs per the medical examiner. Chauvin is 5’7-5’9” depending on the source, and 140lbs. Even cuffed and on the ground, he could probably buck and roll Cauvin off of him. But with 3 total officers on him? It gets real difficult to articulate the pin. I was waiting for either hearing an “overdose” cause of death, or possibly a MPD training manual that says to fully restrain a person who is high. Neither of those things came up at trail. So it’s not looking good for him...

.

Maybe I'm not understanding this part, but I thought the MPD manual indicated the technique Chauvin used was for maximum restraint. I thought they showed this in the trial.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Agreed, before the cuffs are applied, you have some latitude on what a “reasonable officer” would do. But once the cuffs are applied, you own the suspect and their well being.

I think if Chauvin was alone, we would have a different trial at play. Floyd was 6’4-6’6” tall depending on source, and a solid 224lbs per the medical examiner. Chauvin is 5’7-5’9” depending on the source, and 140lbs. Even cuffed and on the ground, he could probably buck and roll Chauvin off of him. But with 3 total officers on him? It gets real difficult to articulate the pin. I was waiting for either hearing an “overdose” cause of death, or possibly a MPD training manual that says to fully restrain a person who is high.

Gadfly,

I guess your resistant suspects (how many?) have all been fairly easy projects. I've been parts of a couple of dozen fights where "3 total officers" was nowhere near enough. Being a fed (based on your FLETC reference) and thereby having lots of help in most arrests is a shitload different than being by yourself or with one cover officer on late nights patrol if somebody decides to fight you like the third monkey on Noah's Ark. Also, having cuffs on somebody is no guarantee that trouble is over. I've had meth folks continue to be an absolute shitstorm even with cuffs on.

[RJ]

Process question while the deliberations go on...What happens in the event of a Hung jury? Is the trial over at this point? Or is it declared a mistrial and we start again?

I did some searching and came out with this explanation:

https://www.minnpost.com/metro/2021/04/explaining-the-possible-outcomes-of-jury-deliberations-in-the-derek-chauvin-trial/

Is this accurate?

[blues]

Process question while the deliberations go on...What happens in the event of a Hung jury? Is the trial over at this point? Or is it declared a mistrial and we start again?

I did some searching and came out with this explanation:

https://www.minnpost.com/metro/2021/04/explaining-the-possible-outcomes-of-jury-deliberations-in-the-derek-chauvin-trial/

Is this accurate?

I don't feel like reading the article but generally, the judge will first try to get the jurors to continue deliberating until they say there is no possibility of a unanimous verdict.

If it were hung on all charges, (unlikely), then it would be up to the prosecution whether they wanted to present the case at trial again. They have that option. (I am not a lawyer, speaking only from my own experiences in courtrooms over the course of a career. Others will have more and deeper knowledge.)

[Wayne Dobbs]

Regarding jury deliberations and instructions: is the court going to instruct the jury to consider lesser included offenses (such as a manslaughter) or just up or down on the murder charge alone?

[olstyn]

Regarding jury deliberations and instructions: is the court going to instruct the jury to consider lesser included offenses (such as a manslaughter) or just up or down on the murder charge alone?

2nd degree manslaughter is already one of the charges, so that would seem to be covered.

[vcdgrips]

RJ's linked article seems solid based on general legal principles.


I have not done any independent research of MN law.

[farscott]

News stories now that state POTUS has provided more ammo for a mistrial or an appeal if convicted. I have a feeling the trial judge may want to redo his "sequester the jury" decision.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9491069/Biden-called-George-Floyds-brother-Philonise-Derek-Chauvin-jury-sent-Minneapolis.html

So now members of the two branches of fed.gov are putting pressure on the jurors.

[blues]

#NotMyPresident (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=NotMyPresident)

[willie]

I may be repeating what has been said. It sounds as if Justice Dept attorneys are going to charge Chauvin with a civil rights violation in case he is acquitted or found guilty on one of the lesser charges. The state and the feds have him in their sights. Too I saw that schools and students are now having walk outs and beating the drum against this man.

[Bergeron]

I'm rather taken aback that a sitting President would a) call up family and b) express opinions on the "right verdict" during jury deliberations.

[blues]

I'm rather taken aback that a sitting President would a) call up family and b) express opinions on the "right verdict" during jury deliberations.


He is stoking the fires that will burn around the country. Brilliant move by him and his brain addled staff. I'd like to pitch them all in to that burning dumpster once it's set aflame.

The Dems regard for the rule of law is as thin as their intention to unite the country and reach out to the other side.

[Bergeron]

The Presidency (and even Congress members) sit atop a mountain of law, precedent, and jurisprudence. They're damaging their own offices' dignity and authority in these vain attempts to influence a jury trial.

[blues]

The Presidency (and even Congress members) sit atop a mountain of law, precedent, and jurisprudence. They're damaging their own offices' dignity and authority in these vain attempts to influence a jury trial.

This will become the very definition of hoist by their own petard...


https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/20/biden-chauvin-trial-guilty-verdict-483463

[RJ]

News stories now that state POTUS has provided more ammo for a mistrial or an appeal if convicted. I have a feeling the trial judge may want to redo his "sequester the jury" decision.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9491069/Biden-called-George-Floyds-brother-Philonise-Derek-Chauvin-jury-sent-Minneapolis.html

So now members of the two branches of fed.gov are putting pressure on the jurors.

You have got to be kidding me.

[Bergeron]

Pull quote from the Politico article kindly provided by blues :


Psaki denied that Biden was “weighing in on the verdict” and said she would not “provide additional analysis on what he meant.” She also maintained that Biden“certainly is not looking to influence” the trial’s outcome.

I mind lies told directly to my face, as though I were some sort of idiot.

[blues]

Pull quote from the Politico article kindly provided by blues :



I mind lies told directly to my face, as though I were some sort of idiot.

Double speak, newspeak, and bullshit speak all in the same gaslighting sentence.

If this is allowed to stand, (including the control of language by DHS and other government agencies), it will not be long before our country, constitution and democracy perish in this godforsaken miasma.

[Inspector71]

Reminds me of another time when a President weighed in on a trial: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/N%20Disk/Nixon%20Richard%20M%20President%20Watergate%20File s/Manson%20Charles/Item%2003.pdf

[Jim Watson]

Verdict at 5:00 PM

[TC215]

Verdict at 5:00 PM

That quick of a verdict will probably not be good for Chauvin.

[Borderland]

The DOJ (Obama/Holder) sent 40 FBI agents to Ferguson after the Michael Brown shooting. They investigated that for 8 months trying to find a civil rights violation. They came up with nothing after that Herculean effort.

None of this surprises me anymore.

[JohnO]

Verdict at 5:00 PM

Talking head on NBC just said 4:30 Eastern time.

[eb07]

Talking head on NBC just said 4:30 Eastern time.

Based on the president and congress comments, I hope the defense pushes for a mistrial

[psalms144.1]

Based on the president and congress comments, I hope the defense pushes for a mistrialMistrial motion was dismissed by the Judge yesterday (prior to POTUS comments). The Judge opined that Congresswoman Waters' comments certainly gave grounds for an appeal, but that's up to the defense.

This quick, I'm guessing they went with Murder 3.

[Jim Watson]

Now we are up to 3:30-4:00.
In time for early evening news.

[BillSWPA]

Regarding sequestering the jury, we need to impact the lives of the jurors as little as possible in order to have people willing to serve on the jury. I agree with the judge’s decision.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Verdict in, not announced yet - any minute

[Gadfly]

I think no matter the outcome, there will be lots of fire tonight, and lots of folks with new Nikes and 80” TVs in the morning.

70432

[Lex Luthier]

I'm booting up the scanner page links.
Loading carbine mags, too.

You?

[Borderland]

I'm booting up the scanner page links.

You?

I'm on an island. The Island Defense League might be gearing up though.

[Gadfly]

I'm booting up the scanner page links.
Loading carbine mags, too.

You?

I’m in Texas... smoking some ribs and chilling.

we don’t really play that shit down here. There will be public gatherings, chanting and bullhorns. But the locals shut things down pretty quick when it gets out of hand. We don’t have a “give them room to destroy” policy.

[5pins]

Verdict in, not announced yet - any minute

Man that was fast, not sure what to make of this.

[olstyn]

I'm booting up the scanner page links.
Loading carbine mags, too.

You?

St. Paul one is quiet so far, but I have to imagine that'll change once the verdict is read, and change more once it gets dark out.

[jd950]

I am expressing no opinion on Mr. Chauvin's guilt or "innocence" on any of the charges. I assume the defense sought a change of venue and have heard they sought sequestration of the jury. I am willing to say that I believe that the denial of those requests, coupled with new Minnesota police shooting case, threats of cities "burning," the comments by Biden, Waters and others from the executive and legislative branches, the security measures, the guard, etc., has denied Chauvin a fair trial, assuming he is convicted.

Meanwhile, I am expecting it to be an active news night no matter what.

[Caballoflaco]

Guilty of all charges.

[PNWTO]

EDIT: Same time post.

[farscott]

This one will be appealed immediately due to Rep. Maxine Waters. Who knew she could be useful?

[TheNewbie]

Guilty of all charges.


A sad day for justice. Chauvin may be no saint, but Floyd is dead because he chose to lead his particular lifestyle.

[Moylan]

At least there should only be celebratory rioting tonight. That will be a comfort to the people whose homes and businesses burn.

[BillSWPA]

Although I think the verdict is likely correct in this case, I would expect the defense to immediately move for a mistrial based on not only the failure to provide the carbon monoxide test results to the defense, but also Maxine Waters’ inflammatory comments. I think the motion would be well-founded, and would not be surprised if it was denied earlier so that the judge could wait to see which verdict the jury returned. If the judge granted a motion for mistrial and the jury would have returned an acquittal, then the judge would not have done the defense any favors.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

This one will be appealed immediately due to Rep. Maxine Waters. Who knew she could be useful?

She is criminally stupid.

[TheNewbie]

Every cop in Minneapolis should quit. Let the George Floyds of the world manage your community.

[fixer]

Honestly stunned speechless.

There is no way a community can have a police force if Chauvin was found guilt on all these charges.

It literally is the most insane thing I've ever experienced outside of 9/11.

Its just insane.

[Borderland]

Pretty much what I expected given the riots, media coverage and the way the judge handled the trial. He was probably guilty of something, but murder, I have my doubts about that. I see a mistrial coming, especially if it goes before another judge.

[JohnO]

failure to provide the carbon monoxide test results to the defense,


My neighbor (defense attorney) told me today that the police vehicle was a Hybrid and running on battery, hence no emissions. Don't know if he pulled that out of his arse?

[olstyn]

Honestly stunned speechless.

I'm pretty close to that myself. It's confusing to me how meth + fentanyl + heart disease/75-90% blockage of coronary arteries + his own choice to fight the cops does not equal reasonable doubt that the cops caused Floyd's death. I can't help but feel that the jury agreed that one man's life was not worth the elevated risk to themselves and the community from the virtually guaranteed rioting if he was acquitted. If that's what it was, then I can understand their motivation, but ugh, that's not the world I want to be living in.

[hufnagel]

May you live in interesting times.

[andre3k]

The jury knew what would have happened if they didn't convict. Have a whole country burn or send a cop to the pen? I think that was an easy decision for them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Joe in PNG]

Pretty much what I expected given the riots, media coverage and the way the judge handled the trial. He was probably guilty of something, but murder, I have my doubts about that. I see a mistrial coming, especially if it goes before another judge.

Same here. His case was pretty much the Boiled Cat Special from the word go, and it would have taken an above average lawyer to have gotten him out in the current situation.

The real action will be in the appeals process.

[BillSWPA]

My neighbor (defense attorney) told me today that the police vehicle was a Hybrid and running on battery, hence no emissions. Don't know if he pulled that out of his arse?

I am not sure what the defense expert knew or did not know about the hybrid vehicle, but it became relevant, and a prosecution expert testified about it at a time when the defense expert was on his way back home and unavailable to comment further. It is possible that the prosecutor did not realize it was relevant, but the defense is entitled to ALL information in the hands of the prosecution.

Shipwreckedcrew on the Redstate website is a former prosecutor and current defense attorney with some good analysis of this and other issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WDR]

The jury knew what would have happened if they didn't convict. Have a whole country burn or send a cop to the pen? I think that was an easy decision for them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

And that isn't justice... that's mob rule. So much for the rule of law.

[Archer1440]

The inevitable appeal will become quite interesting given the free gift from Demented Maxine.

[fixer]

So we are at a point where policing is decided on whether people's feelings are too hurt.

[fixer]

The inevitable appeal will become quite interesting given the free gift from Demented Maxine.


Maybe if courts and due process were a thing still...

[Mystery]

I'm pretty close to that myself. It's confusing to me how meth + fentanyl + heart disease/75-90% blockage of coronary arteries + his own choice to fight the cops does not equal reasonable doubt that the cops caused Floyd's death. I can't help but feel that the jury agreed that one man's life was not worth the elevated risk to themselves and the community from the virtually guaranteed rioting if he was acquitted. If that's what it was, then I can understand their motivation, but ugh, that's not the world I want to be living in.

I'm not gonna say much about the case except that officer got a lot more against him than I thought.
However, your reply implies that it's okay to kill people who are sick.
"He has cancer. He's only got few months to live. 95% dead so doesn't matter if someone kills him".
Also, people don't walk around with their medical history and other things hanging from their neck for officers to read before deciding how to apprehend someone.

[Joe in PNG]

Truth is, we're back to where we were about a century ago, where the prejudices of the mob and the tribal affiliation of the accused meant more than the Rule of Law.

If we get anymore Progressive, we'll be right back to lynchings.

[TC215]

However, your reply implies that it's okay to kill people who are sick.

No...no, it doesn't.

[olstyn]

However, your reply implies that it's okay to kill people who are sick.

You rather grossly misunderstand me. Floyd presumably knew all of those things about himself and still chose to fight the cops and put his body under that heightened level of stress. I'm impugning his choices in that moment, not making a blanket statement that it's OK to kill people who are sick.

[randyho]

I'm not gonna say much about the case except that officer got a lot more against him than I thought.
However, your reply implies that it's okay to kill people who are sick.
"He has cancer. He's only got few months to live. 95% dead so doesn't matter if someone kills him".
Also, people don't walk around with their medical history and other things hanging from their neck for officers to read before deciding how to apprehend someone.
You appear to have added 2 + 2 and gotten potato... salad, with celery, on board a 44' Lagoon catamaran, with garmin navigation, somewhere off the coast of Tonga which is still suffering from lockdowns, whole wheat natch.

[Mystery]

You rather grossly misunderstand me. Floyd presumably knew all of those things about himself and still chose to fight the cops and put his body under that heightened level of stress. I'm impugning his choices in that moment, not making a blanket statement that it's OK to kill people who are sick.

Okay. Of course he was not a model citizen.
If I kill someone and autopsy shows he had 90% organs failing, I won't get off the case so that was my point.
Anyways, the case has a decision and I was actually expecting less
We'll see how things wind up in coming weeks.

[Shellback]

Guilty of being a white police officer.

[LittleLebowski]

This is beyond infuriating.

1384628197929717765

[smokeman]

This is beyond infuriating.

1384628197929717765

so it's not rioting for the sake of justice. it's rioting for the sake of rioting

[LittleLebowski]

1384632055515000833

[Oldherkpilot]

I'm not gonna say much about the case except that officer got a lot more against him than I thought.
However, your reply implies that it's okay to kill people who are sick.
"He has cancer. He's only got few months to live. 95% dead so doesn't matter if someone kills him".
Also, people don't walk around with their medical history and other things hanging from their neck for officers to read before deciding how to apprehend someone.

I'm kind of glad you're not gonna say much.

[Borderland]

Truth is, we're back to where we were about a century ago, where the prejudices of the mob and the tribal affiliation of the accused meant more than the Rule of Law.

If we get anymore Progressive, we'll be right back to lynchings.

I think we may already be there. With the break down in police presence in some cities, there's going to be more people killed for whatever reason. Portland is already experiencing this.


Less than 10 weeks into the new year, Portland has witnessed 20 homicides. Fifteen of the killings were committed with guns, says Lt. Greg Pashley of the Portland Police Bureau.



https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2021/03/10/portland-is-averaging-two-homicides-a-week-in-2021/

Does anyone wonder why there's no ammo or pistols at Cabela's and carry permits are being dropped by state legislatures every year? It's the GD wild west all over again.

https://youtu.be/pEOVNmSR7_c?t=106

[blues]

Nancy Pelosi has thanked Floyd for sacrificing his life.

Really? Can beatification and canonizing be far behind?

This is some sort of story being woven out of whole cloth. (And it's got nothing to do with the adjudicated misdeeds of Chauvin.)

[Moylan]

Nancy Pelosi has thanked Floyd for sacrificing his life.
I guess that was his plan for sure.

[ccmdfd]

Nancy Pelosi has thanked Floyd for sacrificing his life.

Really? Can beatification and canonizing be far behind?

This is some sort of story being woven out of whole cloth. (And it's got nothing to do with the adjudicated misdeeds of Chauvin.)

Man your signature line is becoming more and more true with each sunrise.

[Mas]

My take at this point: https://www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/thoughts-on-the-chauvin-verdict/ .

More to come.

[Suvorov]

My take at this point: https://www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/thoughts-on-the-chauvin-verdict/ .

More to come.


fait accompli

The culmination of accurate and succinct!

Robespierre would be pleased with this verdict (at least before the mob turned on him).

[blues]

I just heard the president say some words to the effect that the Chauvin conviction is proof of systemic racism in the police.

So, I guess if a white officer saves a black life tomorrow, it's proof that systemic racism doesn't exist. Stands to reason.

How is it that one man represents all of the police when it satisfies the false narrative...but one man is only one man when it doesn't?

Food for thought.

[camel]

The politicians need to stop with the virtue signaling.

[TheNewbie]

I just heard the president say some words to the effect that the Chauvin conviction is proof of systemic racism in the police.

So, I guess if a white officer saves a black life tomorrow, it's proof that systemic racism doesn't exist. Stands to reason.

How is it that one man represents all of the police when it satisfies the false narrative...but one man is only one man when it doesn't?

Food for thought.


It’s crazy to watch the death of reason before one’s eyes.

[Borderland]

Here's something I don't understand and maybe somebody can shed some light on this.


Arradondo, the first Black police chief in the history of Minneapolis, had previously sued the department for discrimination when he was struggling to rise through the ranks.

He told the jury he “vehemently disagreed” with Chauvin’s actions, the officer had in “no way, shape or form” followed regulations or training policies and had shown a disregard for police principle to respect “the sanctity of life”.

Even if part of the motivation was to scapegoat Chauvin while trying to show how the department has made improvements, it is still rare for a police chief to acknowledge and eject a killer cop, see them prosecuted and then testify against them.

And the department looked bad anyway because Chauvin had worked there for 19 years and had had numerous complaints about brutality made against him, while escaping consequences.

So the level of transparency and accountability demonstrated during the Chauvin case was notable.

My question is how can a cop like Chauvin work for a PD for 19 years with that kind of damning testimony. Seems a bit odd to me. Maybe the PD should be on trial here and not just one officer.

[Totem Polar]

I’ve got nothing. The jury has spoken. The chips will fall where they are.

Godspeed to America in the new media age.

[andre3k]

I already got the call to head to a celebration march in Floyds old hood. It would be a shame if I on-viewed an accident to work before getting to the celebration.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[jd950]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

1384632485254991872

[Borderland]

I’ve got nothing. The jury has spoken. The chips will fall where they are.

Godspeed to America in the new media age.

Trials by media and public sentiment from media coverage. Nothing more than the Peoples Court.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Court_(Germany)

[TheNewbie]

Guess my dad was right, back in 2007, in that I should have picked a different career.