DAO guns - general discussion/random finds

[backtrail540]

I know there are a handful of us on here currently experimenting with or who are just general fans of the DAO guns at the moment. This can be a place to discuss rare finds or to talk about the things regarding dao guns that don't merit their own thread. I'm currently running a 92dxr with ltt rdo slide.

There are a few other dao designs I want to play with - namely a p250 (I know of at least one member who was running one well last year with various p320 modules), a dao variant of the px4 (seems easily switched with a d hammer assembly available at MGW), and one of the rare p09/07 dao guns for the mhs trials (dao parts were available at numerich for a bit, though I'm not sure of current availability).

I just came across this dao Hi Power on gunbroker and it intrigued me.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/895814715

I saw DB's m9a1 compact D build. I've got a d centurion slide/parts kit from everygunpartdotcom. Eventually I hope to get a compact lower to put it on.

What DAO guns have you ran/are running currently?

[kjr_29]

Following with interest. My only DAO at the moment is a snubby revolver, but very interested in finding a 229 DAK or exploring the PX4 again.


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[revchuck38]

I've got a police trade-in PX4 D that was one of the ones that Southern Ohio Guns was selling a couple of years ago for ~$250. I sent it to Langdon for a trigger job and Ameriglo sights, though I specified a hammer spring heavy enough to pop anything. It's pretty sweet. I think of it as my 18-shot K frame, though I still can't shoot it as well as a K frame for some reason. I've been carrying it or a K frame lately.

[backtrail540]

I believe a px4 compact with Langdon's new red dot solution, once it drops, will be something I explore next. Then, like the 92, it isn't too much work(from what I gather) to go back to da/sa if/when I'm over playing around in the dao world.

For absolute performance in a hammer gun, the da/sa is great. I lose about a 1/10 when pushing raw splits to a high percentage target at 7(an A zone for instance). I can get high teens with my p09 or a da/sa beretta, whereas my 92d I've only gotten down to .24 range. But I've noticed across my performance tracking so far, with the d, I get better scores often as I drop more points with sa shots when I am pushing speed at the edge of my ability to control the gun.

The dao I can only run so fast and my ability to control the gun closely aligns with that speed at which I can run the trigger. Obviously it's going to vary from shooter to shooter. But I don't feel as if I'm losing much at the moment and my tendency to anticipate goes way down with a smooth da press vs something with a defined wall and shorter takeup on precision shots.

[ViniVidivici]

I was just wondering the other day, whatever happened to the DAK trigger, and why it didnt become more popular?

[kwb377]

I just came across this dao Hi Power on gunbroker and it intrigued me.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/895814715


In '93 when I got hired by the P.D., we carried our own handguns as opposed to being issued a common pistol. I went through the academy toting a S&W 5946, while my roommate had a Browning BDM...similar to the above HP, but it had a sloted switch on the sided that allowed either traditional SA/DA operation or DAO (the safety acted as both a safety and a decocker in TDA mode, safety only in DAO).

Over the years I bounced around between guns and tried several DAO guns...P226, 92D and 96D Centurions, and a 4046. The Sig had a horrible trigger, the Smiths were...well...Smiths, and the Berettas were smooth as glass. I've also carried Glocks and 1911's at some point for work (different agency), and have settled on striker guns (currently in love with the P10C). I've become nostalgic of recent and have thought about finding another 92D variant or 3rd Gen. Smith of some flavor...not for professional carry, but just because.

[MolonLabe416]

I recently picked up a police trade-in P220 Carry with the DAK trigger. I bought it specifically to carry in a Hill People Gear chest rig and it fits that role perfectly for me.

[Doc_Glock]

The dao I can only run so fast and my ability to control the gun closely aligns with that speed at which I can run the trigger.

Very much this. I can run the trigger on a non DAO gun better than I can control recoil. This probably means I should learn better recoil control, of course. For me, recoil control is the most perishable of skills and burns a lot of ammo to learn and re learn. DAO just takes a lot of that pressure off.

I don't know much else about it other than I like DA triggers. The DA trigger on my 43C has improved considerably in multi thousand dry fires and 1500 down the pipe. You can't judge that S&W trigger out of the box at all.

[JonInWA]

Beretta 92D....https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?26669-Beretta-92D-With-Updates&highlight=Update

Best, Jon

[Joe in PNG]

I've got two at the moment. A snubby Model 10 with chopped hammer, and a 92D Centurion (which I bought for $300).

Right now, the 92D is wearing a set of Pachmyr G10 stocks, and has a Wilson trigger bar and the light 12# spring. It happily popped all the ammo I put through it, so viola. I was also able to have Trijicon relamp the sights, back when that was a thing.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I know there are a handful of us on here currently experimenting with or who are just general fans of the DAO guns at the moment. This can be a place to discuss rare finds or to talk about the things regarding dao guns that don't merit their own thread. I'm currently running a 92dxr with ltt rdo slide.



Did you remove the decockers from the slide, or replace them with a more flush alternative? Very interested to learn more if so.

A 92D Compact or Centurion built on an LTT or similar lower is something I would be really interested in.


I was just wondering the other day, whatever happened to the DAK trigger, and why it didnt become more popular?

IMO it kinda sucks, I greatly prefer an actual DAO trigger. I've only shot one though and dryfired a second.


I've got a police trade-in PX4 D that was one of the ones that Southern Ohio Guns was selling a couple of years ago for ~$250. I sent it to Langdon for a trigger job and Ameriglo sights, though I specified a hammer spring heavy enough to pop anything. It's pretty sweet. I think of it as my 18-shot K frame, though I still can't shoot it as well as a K frame for some reason. I've been carrying it or a K frame lately.

Very jealous, that's a great deal.

[Joe in PNG]

Did you remove the decockers from the slide, or replace them with a more flush alternative? Very interested to learn more if so.

A 92D Compact or Centurion built on an LTT or similar lower is something I would be really interested in.



92's are pretty easy to convert to DAO- just remove the sear, and you have a DAO. But I don't think anyone has any kind of a plug for the slide to remove the safety/ decocker.
However, there's a fair number of 92D Centurion kits on Everygunpart (https://everygunpart.com/handgun-kits/semi-auto.html?calibers_gauges=838&manufacturer=8), and i think one could brew something without too much trouble.

[Bigghoss]

I've played with the Beretta 92D a bit. Wish I hadn't sold my 92D Centurion. I bought a 92XD with the intention of converting an M9A1 to DAO, I just haven't gotten around to it.

I think I might one day try to grab a Smith 3rd gen DAO.

[HCM]

I was just wondering the other day, whatever happened to the DAK trigger, and why it didnt become more popular?

To quote one of the former LSP members, the DAK sucks all the fun out of shooting a SIG. it has a weird double reset.

If I wanted a DAO I’d look at Beretta.

[WobblyPossum]

I only have two DAO handguns at this moment: a S&W 64-5 and one of the Beretta 92DXRs. I had never had a chance to handle a 92D prior to picking one up last fall and I ended up liking it a lot more than I thought I would. I like it so much that I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a compact version of Beretta decided to release one with the Vertec D slide. While I would prefer it on the traditional curved backstrap frame, I’d be just fine with a Vertec/X frame too. I’m lusting after DB’s two-tone 92D compact he assembled recently. My 92DXR has a Wilson trigger bar and 12# hammer spring. The trigger is great. It’s smooth with no noticeable grittiness. So far I’ve tried it with Federal ammunition and it had no problem popping primers. Next time out I’ll run some S&B to see how it handles harder primers.

I actually like the idea of a DAO semi-auto as a defensive/LEO duty pistol considering most of pistol use is managing people at gun point and very little of it is actually shooting people. I wouldn’t have any complaints about carrying a 92D at work if I was issued one. I don’t think it would be a great gun for a direct action military unit whose job it is to actively seek out gunfights and shootings but those guys are doing more shooting than people managing. When I first heard a 92D referred to as a magazine-fed K-Frame it really clicked with me how great one would be as a night stand or sock drawer gun. It’s a setup that can work just as well for an enthusiast as it can for the people DB refers to who treat their guns like fire extinguishers.

[backtrail540]

Did you remove the decockers from the slide, or replace them with a more flush alternative? Very interested to learn more if so.



Nope just the stock g levers on the rdo. The plate is as wide or wider than the levers and i haven't noticed them once in the 1k rounds and daily dry practice I've had it. They're just there.

Originally i planned on something like that but they're so unnoticeable i abandoned the idea.

[deputyG23]

I only have two DAO handguns at this moment: a S&W 64-5 and one of the Beretta 92DXRs. I had never had a chance to handle a 92D prior to picking one up last fall and I ended up liking it a lot more than I thought I would. I like it so much that I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a compact version of Beretta decided to release one with the Vertec D slide. While I would prefer it on the traditional curved backstrap frame, I’d be just fine with a Vertec/X frame too. I’m lusting after DB’s two-tone 92D compact he assembled recently. My 92DXR has a Wilson trigger bar and 12# hammer spring. The trigger is great. It’s smooth with no noticeable grittiness. So far I’ve tried it with Federal ammunition and it had no problem popping primers. Next time out I’ll run some S&B to see how it handles harder primers.

I actually like the idea of a DAO semi-auto as a defensive/LEO duty pistol considering most of pistol use is managing people at gun point and very little of it is actually shooting people. I wouldn’t have any complaints about carrying a 92D at work if I was issued one. I don’t think it would be a great gun for a direct action military unit whose job it is to actively seek out gunfights and shootings but those guys are doing more shooting than people managing. When I first heard a 92D referred to as a magazine-fed K-Frame it really clicked with me how great one would be as a night stand or sock drawer gun. It’s a setup that can work just as well for an enthusiast as it can for the people DB refers to who treat their guns like fire extinguishers.

My only DAO bottom feeder is a first gen nickel slide P250 I got inexpensively a few years ago.
Put on a Gen 2 small grip module and corresponding slide lever and magazine floor plates and the thing has ran without issue for around eight hundred rounds of assorted ammo. I am slower with it than my Glocks but have many less low left trigger jerk displaced shots. I would have no qualms about carrying it professionally if allowed and had a second one as a spare.
I can see this gun playing a greater role after retirement in a not Glock mandated world to better mesh, trigger wise, with my K and J Smiths that will be my LEOSA travel guns when going north.
My son may move from MD to NW NJ to accept a position with a well known consumer chemical firm so conforming to the various rules will be crucial if I choose to travel armed there if he moves. Especially if we cross over into NYS or NYC.

[backtrail540]

Question for those with experience on multiple dao guns - is the 92d on the longer end of the scale regarding pull length/stroke and reset?

I haven't measured but i feel subjectively that the 92d stroke is longer than the da on my p09 and wheelies. I rarely short stroke smith's or my p09 in dry practice doing only da pulls but if I don't stay dedicated to the 92d (sometimes I have wondering eyes) then come back to the d, I'll have a short stroke or two on longer strings of fire when pushing speed. I've cleaned up my grips so that there isn't any trigger bar rub, so that isn't a factor, and as long as I stick to it exclusively it is pretty rare.

Do any of the other dao guns have shorter stroke/reset?

[David S.]

I actually like the idea of a DAO semi-auto as a defensive/LEO duty pistol considering most of pistol use is managing people at gun point and very little of it is actually shooting people. I wouldn’t have any complaints about carrying a 92D at work if I was issued one. I don’t think it would be a great gun for a direct action military unit whose job it is to actively seek out gunfights and shootings but those guys are doing more shooting than people managing. When I first heard a 92D referred to as a magazine-fed K-Frame it really clicked with me how great one would be as a night stand or sock drawer gun. It’s a setup that can work just as well for an enthusiast as it can for the people DB refers to who treat their guns like fire extinguishers.

I was fortunate enough to attend Darryl and Wayne's High Accountability Workshop (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46847-HiTS-High-Accountability-Pistol-Workshop-03-14-2021-Dallas) a couple weeks ago.

Darryl ran us through several challenging drills on relatively small targets with no-shoots everywhere, and the firing solution (number of rounds and location) wasn't obvious. He demonstrated that once things got challenging, split times for everybody jumped to .50 to 1.00+ second splits, regardless of skill level. The task complexity and cognitive load were the limiting factor, not the trigger style.

Another thing I noted was decocking, and presumably safety-ing the gun. I've been doing the DA/SA thing for a couple years now and haven't noticed any trouble following a relatively strict decock protocol (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8992) in training/practice/sport, but during the class I neglected to decock on several transitions that definitely deserved decocks. I don't think I missed the decock because I was overloaded so much as because I hadn't worked that type of transition before, the actions didn't "trigger" a decock response. Honestly this was one of my bigger takeaways from the class and I saw the benefit of a DAO gun for this type of work.

[03RN]

To quote one of the former LSP members, the DAK sucks all the fun out of shooting a SIG. it has a weird double reset.

If I wanted a DAO I’d look at Beretta.

I like the DAK. If you treat it like a dao then it functions as one.

[03RN]

92's are pretty easy to convert to DAO- just remove the sear, and you have a DAO. But I don't think anyone has any kind of a plug for the slide to remove the safety/ decocker.
However, there's a fair number of 92D Centurion kits on Everygunpart (https://everygunpart.com/handgun-kits/semi-auto.html?calibers_gauges=838&manufacturer=8), and i think one could brew something without too much trouble.

I still need to remove my sear but now I kinda want one of the slides and just get it relamped

[backtrail540]

Nope just the stock g levers on the rdo. The plate is as wide or wider than the levers and i haven't noticed them once in the 1k rounds and daily dry practice I've had it. They're just there.

Originally i planned on something like that but they're so unnoticeable i abandoned the idea.

69537

I was wrong. I took a pic during dry practice today and the levers stick out a fair amount further than the plate.

They aren't bothersome or noticeable and i must've just thought them to be thinner than the plate despite reality. I guess that speaks to how much they get in the way.

[HCM]

I like the DAK. If you treat it like a dao then it functions as one.

I’m unfortunately all too familiar with the DAK. We issued them at work for over a decade, during which I watched people struggle with them. When I ran our local firearms program I carried one just to show the company gun was feasible but as soon as it was just me, I dumped it for a Glock and never looked back.

You can have all the DAKs.

My recommendation for a DAO remains Beretta.

[03RN]

I’m unfortunately all too familiar with the DAK. We issued them at work for over a decade, during which I watched people struggle with them. When I ran our local firearms program I carried one just to show the company gun was feasible but as soon as it was just me, I dumped it for a Glock and never looked back.

You can have all the DAKs.

My recommendation for a DAO remains Beretta.

Ive only shot them a few times. I prefer berettas anyways so Ive never owned one.

If you are just using the dak as a dao gun what issues did you notice?

[HCM]

Ive only shot them a few times. I prefer berettas anyways so Ive never owned one.

If you are just using the dak as a dao gun what issues did you notice?

I’m not a fan of shooting to reset but it’s common especially since many of our folks ran a 229DAK and a G26. When they tried to do so they would normally use the first reset which is about 2lbs heavier than the normal trigger pull after the second reset.

Even running the trigger properly, there is a certain staple gun feel to it vs a TDA or true DAO which almost encourages anticipation where as a true DAO has the opposite influence.

The 229s are tanks in terms of durability, and I have a DAK for nostalgia but it’s not something I’d really care to shoot again.

Gadfly also has a fair amount of experience with the DAK.

[45dotACP]

I've shot a DAK 229 a few times and didn't mind it, but that's probably just because I like the Sig 229.

I'd probably like it more in DA/SA, but running it like a DAO trigger made it pretty easy to shoot well in the slower, more sterile range stall I rented it in.

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[jd950]

I’m unfortunately all too familiar with the DAK. We issued them at work for over a decade, during which I watched people struggle with them. When I ran our local firearms program I carried one just to show the company gun was feasible but as soon as it was just me, I dumped it for a Glock and never looked back.

You can have all the DAKs.

My recommendation for a DAO remains Beretta.

There is no one best choice for everyone, and your dislike for the DAK is just as valid as my appreciation of it.

To me, it provides a very "revolver-like" trigger pull that I shoot well. I "grew up" on revolvers and 1911s and find that the DAK trigger, like a few other DAO triggers, is very easy to shoot well. The only time the double reset (which is a bit weird as you say) comes into play is between shots and since I do not try to “find” or “ride” the reset, and the two resets are so close together, that it just doesn’t matter. From time to time I notice it, but rarely.

I don’t really like the term “slapping” the trigger, because it connotes a jerking or yanking motion, but for lack of a better term, for each shot I “slap” the trigger and then fully release the trigger before my sights are back on target. I don’t care about reset points. If I had started out on things like Glocks, or perhaps even DA/SA guns I might feel differently.

I would note that I am talking about defensive or LEO use, not guns for competition or play. I do not like the idea of releasing only to reset for defensive/LEO purposes…the risk of short stroking the gun is there and, in a life or death situation, I don’t think playing with reset points is the thing to do, except perhaps for those with exceptional skills under stress.

The DAK was designed to provide second shot capability (according to its designer and the patent application) and it also seems to offer some protection against short stroking. I don’t really care about those things due to the way I shoot. If the DAK had only the one reset, I suppose I might prefer it, but only a little. It just doesn't matter to how I shoot the gun.

If one really cares about reset points and has the ability to let the trigger out only as far as the reset point, then I guess a shooter could just use that first reset. It is still a very good DA trigger pull.
Granted, the 92D and Px4 have equal or perhaps slightly better triggers, but are not guns I can carry at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLLLt5VGYmM&list=PLS8uHUCGHZuOjS-fndcII8BE-XDh3yROn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbBdf3_mhtg

From Todd Green (I am sure many of you have read this before):

“Then there is the reset. The DAK does not use a rebounding hammer like a standard (DA/SA) SIG. Therefore, it relies on the slide cycling to place the gun in what SIG calls the ‘safety notch’ or firing position. In order to provide restrike capability — which SIG considers a worthwhile feature for a combat gun — the DAK needed a way to cock the trigger when it was not in the safety notch position. The result is that, instead of being a simple “true” DAO with a full length reset, there is also an intermediate reset on a DAK. This intermediate reset, which does not benefit from the full leverage of the modified DAK mechanism, is about 2# heavier than the ordinary trigger pull. So you can either release the trigger all the way out (like a DA revolver) and get that same ~7.5# trigger pull, or you can reset it half way and get ~9.5# trigger pull on follow up shots."

"In my experience, releasing the trigger all the way forward makes for much better results. Because the trigger on the DAK & LEM will move all the way forward between shots if you let it, you never run the risk of losing contact with the trigger between shots. This means much less chance of slapping the trigger when shooting at maximum speed. So for example, while my splits were a little slower with the DAK than with a DA/SA SIG (especially using the Short Reset Trigger version), I was much less likely to throw a shot with the DAK…the DAK is like shooting a DA revolver (not counting the intermediate reset)"

[Trooper224]

I'll jump into HCMs boat. I think the Sig DAK is an abortion. I was saddled with one for a few years (a blessedly short few years). I shot it well, but it took a lot more effort than it should have. It pretty well killed any enthusiasm I may have had for DAO semi-autos.

BTW: before anyone starts, no one needs to tell me my feelings are valid, I don't need that type of postmodernist affirmation.

[HCM]

There is no one best choice for everyone, and your dislike for the DAK is just as valid as my appreciation of it.

To me, it provides a very "revolver-like" trigger pull that I shoot well. I "grew up" on revolvers and 1911s and find that the DAK trigger, like a few other DAO triggers, is very easy to shoot well. The only time the double reset (which is a bit weird as you say) comes into play is between shots and since I do not try to “find” or “ride” the reset, and the two resets are so close together, that it just doesn’t matter. From time to time I notice it, but rarely.

I don’t really like the term “slapping” the trigger, because it connotes a jerking or yanking motion, but for lack of a better term, for each shot I “slap” the trigger and then fully release the trigger before my sights are back on target. I don’t care about reset points. If I had started out on things like Glocks, or perhaps even DA/SA guns I might feel differently.

I would note that I am talking about defensive or LEO use, not guns for competition or play. I do not like the idea of releasing only to reset for defensive/LEO purposes…the risk of short stroking the gun is there and, in a life or death situation, I don’t think playing with reset points is the thing to do, except perhaps for those with exceptional skills under stress.

The DAK was designed to provide second shot capability (according to its designer and the patent application) and it also seems to offer some protection against short stroking. I don’t really care about those things due to the way I shoot. If the DAK had only the one reset, I suppose I might prefer it, but only a little. It just doesn't matter to how I shoot the gun.

If one really cares about reset points and has the ability to let the trigger out only as far as the reset point, then I guess a shooter could just use that first reset. It is still a very good DA trigger pull.
Granted, the 92D and Px4 have equal or perhaps slightly better triggers, but are not guns I can carry at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLLLt5VGYmM&list=PLS8uHUCGHZuOjS-fndcII8BE-XDh3yROn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbBdf3_mhtg

From Todd Green (I am sure many of you have read this before):

“Then there is the reset. The DAK does not use a rebounding hammer like a standard (DA/SA) SIG. Therefore, it relies on the slide cycling to place the gun in what SIG calls the ‘safety notch’ or firing position. In order to provide restrike capability — which SIG considers a worthwhile feature for a combat gun — the DAK needed a way to cock the trigger when it was not in the safety notch position. The result is that, instead of being a simple “true” DAO with a full length reset, there is also an intermediate reset on a DAK. This intermediate reset, which does not benefit from the full leverage of the modified DAK mechanism, is about 2# heavier than the ordinary trigger pull. So you can either release the trigger all the way out (like a DA revolver) and get that same ~7.5# trigger pull, or you can reset it half way and get ~9.5# trigger pull on follow up shots."

"In my experience, releasing the trigger all the way forward makes for much better results. Because the trigger on the DAK & LEM will move all the way forward between shots if you let it, you never run the risk of losing contact with the trigger between shots. This means much less chance of slapping the trigger when shooting at maximum speed. So for example, while my splits were a little slower with the DAK than with a DA/SA SIG (especially using the Short Reset Trigger version), I was much less likely to throw a shot with the DAK…the DAK is like shooting a DA revolver (not counting the intermediate reset)"

To be clear, my first duty gun was a GP-100 followed briefly by a TDA SIG, a D model Beretta and a USPC LEM. We had more latitude in off duty guns back in the day an I ran a Kahr K40 and a S&W 3954 before the USPC so my guns would be all DAO. I have no issue with DA or DA triggers but don't like the DAK in particular.

Like Trooper224, I shot it well, but it took a lot more effort than it should have. When we adopted the DAK, there was a window of time where TDA SIGs were inadvertently authorized. I considered putting a TDA 229 on the books but didn't because I felt I should be shooting the issued gun as head of the local firearms program. Kind of kicked myself for that but the G17 worked out fine.

It's one of those things that briefed well but disappointed in execution.

SIG has discontinued them so if you like DAK's get them while they are still available at surplus prices.

[jd950]

To be clear, my first duty gun was a GP-100 followed briefly by a TDA SIG, a D model Beretta and an LEM. I have no issue with DA or DA triggers but don't like the DAK in particular.

Like Trooper224, I shot it well, but it took a lot more effort than it should have. When we adopted the DAK, there was a window of time where TDA SIGs were inadvertently authorized. I considered putting a TDA 229 on the books but didn't because I felt I should be shooting the issued gun as head of the local firearms program. Kind of kicked myself for that but the G17 worked out fine.

It's one of those things that briefed well but disappointed in execution.

They aren't available at surplus prices any more. For a while I could pick up DAK pistols pretty cheap, but now they go fast at good prices (except the P220, which I guess is not popular because it doesn't hold enough bullitses.

Don't burden yourself any longer. Send me that P229 DAK you have lying around and I will give it a good home. ;-)

[HCM]

Don't burden yourself any longer. Send me that P229 DAK you have lying around and I will give it a good home. ;-)

They are tanks, if you change the RSA's as required the will do 100k of 40/357 without issue.

[jd950]

They are tanks, if you change the RSA's as required the will do 100k of 40/357 without issue.

I still carry a 229 as a duty gun and 239 as an admin/off duty gun (both DAK...don't laugh). I replace the recoil springs at about 3000 rounds. I still have and still shoot the .40 229 that preceded the 9. My kid's duty gun was 229 until just recently; his agency said no more, so he got an M&P.

[TheNewbie]

The P226 DAK I was issued was fine, besides it being in .357 SIG. A DAK is much preferred by me vs a LEM.


It’s understandable why people might not like it, but a P220 or P226 9mm DAK would be just fine by me.

[pangloss]

I don't think I saw this thread yesterday, but this morning I rather impulsively bought a 92DXR off Gunbroker. Some people sleep walk. Maybe I read PF in my sleep. The gun shipped this afternoon. I should have it by Thursday. The only other DAO guns I have currently are a S&W 432PD and Model 64-5 (I think). I haven't shot the 64-5 much, as I didn't have a good stash of ammo for it before the shortage. I'm really looking forward to getting the 92DXR though.

[WobblyPossum]

I don't think I saw this thread yesterday, but this morning I rather impulsively bought a 92DXR off Gunbroker. Some people sleep walk. Maybe I read PF in my sleep. The gun shipped this afternoon. I should have it by Thursday. The only other DAO guns I have currently are a S&W 432PD and Model 64-5 (I think). I haven't shot the 64-5 much, as I didn't have a good stash of ammo for it before the shortage. I'm really looking forward to getting the 92DXR though.

I bet you’re going to like it. If you don’t end up liking it, you shouldn’t have any problem selling it on the forum.

[pangloss]

I bet you’re going to like it. If you don’t end up liking it, you shouldn’t have any problem selling it on the forum.

"I bet I won't have any problem selling it on the forum if I don't like it," was literally the thought going through my mind when I clicked "buy now." I need to re-read that 92DXR thread now that I have one coming. My 92 Vertec has a Wilson trigger bar in it, and I can't remember what weight springs. If I could clone that DA pull into this DXR, I'll be quite happy. Every time I dry fire that pistol, I feel guilty for not shooting it more.

[WobblyPossum]

"I bet I won't have any problem selling it on the forum if I don't like it," was literally the thought going through my mind when I clicked "buy now." I need to re-read that 92DXR thread now that I have one coming. My 92 Vertec has a Wilson trigger bar in it, and I can't remember what weight springs. If I could clone that DA pull into this DXR, I'll be quite happy. Every time I dry fire that pistol, I feel guilty for not shooting it more.

The general wisdom seems to be that on a 92D you can go with a hammer spring one pound lower than you can on a 92FS and maintain the same reliability. I think it’s because of the D’s one-piece firing pin. I have a Wilson trigger bar and one of their 12# chrome silicon springs in my 92DXR and the trigger pull might actually be nicer than my LTT with NP3 trigger job in a bag. The Wilson trigger bar increases the hammer arc in double action which adds to the reliability with the lighter springs. Mine hasn’t had issues touching off American primers. Next time I take it out I’m going to run a box of S&B through it to see how it does with tougher European primers.

[Doc_Glock]

"I bet I won't have any problem selling it on the forum if I don't like it," was literally the thought going through my mind when I clicked "buy now." I need to re-read that 92DXR thread now that I have one coming. My 92 Vertec has a Wilson trigger bar in it, and I can't remember what weight springs. If I could clone that DA pull into this DXR, I'll be quite happy. Every time I dry fire that pistol, I feel guilty for not shooting it more.


The DXR is really nice. But I found the older 92Ds I have acquired even nicer in the trigger dept.

69574

[OlongJohnson]

"I bet I won't have any problem selling it on the forum if I don't like it," was literally the thought going through my mind when I clicked "buy now." I need to re-read that 92DXR thread now that I have one coming. My 92 Vertec has a Wilson trigger bar in it, and I can't remember what weight springs. If I could clone that DA pull into this DXR, I'll be quite happy. Every time I dry fire that pistol, I feel guilty for not shooting it more.

Read the thread before it gets here.

I was excited enough to be the OP for that thread, but I sent mine back to Bud's due to an angled front sight.

Still kinda thinking about picking up a D kit or two from EveryGunPart.

[pangloss]

The general wisdom seems to be that on a 92D you can go with a hammer spring one pound lower than you can on a 92FS and maintain the same reliability. I think it’s because of the D’s one-piece firing pin. I have a Wilson trigger bar and one of their 12# chrome silicon springs in my 92DXR and the trigger pull might actually be nicer than my LTT with NP3 trigger job in a bag. The Wilson trigger bar increases the hammer arc in double action which adds to the reliability with the lighter springs. Mine hasn’t had issues touching off American primers. Next time I take it out I’m going to run a box of S&B through it to see how it does with tougher European primers.

Sounds easy enough to implement. I can't find a record of what I did to my Vertec anywhere except in the Beretta Picture thread! Looks like I went with the Wilson short reach trigger, but I left the stock trigger bar in the pistol. At least I wrote it down somewhere. I need to add that info to my pistol log...


The DXR is really nice. But I found the older 92Ds I have acquired even nicer in the trigger dept.

69574

That is quite a commitment to the 92D! An old 96D is the only Beretta DAO I've ever handled and that was for only a minute or so. The trigger on that pistol was absolutely amazing. I'll be shocked if the 92DXR is that good, but it could be a lot worse and still be pretty great.


Read the thread before it gets here.

I was excited enough to be the OP for that thread, but I sent mine back to Bud's due to an angled front sight.

Still kinda thinking about picking up a D kit or two from EveryGunPart.

Yep. That's my big concern. I know it's a gamble, but I think I'd regret it later if I passed it up.

[oregon45]

Yep. That's my big concern. I know it's a gamble, but I think I'd regret it later if I passed it up.

I have a 92DX that has a front sight that leans slightly to one side. This can be seen when focusing on the top of the front sight--however, because the sight is a "drive the dot" style and the rear sight is a U-notch, I've found that, when actually shooting, I don't notice the angle of the front sight. It's annoying that Beretta would let them out the door that way, but not enough to make me forego owning one--or three :D

https://i.imgur.com/K72SeSs.jpg?1

[Lester Polfus]

My life is becoming increasingly revolver-centric in two niches: the J-frame niche, and the Woods Gun niche. The Glock 19 has increasingly become an outlier in the "Mid-size gun that I need a cover garnet to conceal" niche.

I have a significant amount of money in Glock 19s, but as I consider the cost of changing them all to red dots, I'm also considering changing platforms for the first time in 15 years. I know plenty of people do it, but I just don't like carrying a striker-fired gun AIWB, and I'd like to have common-ish trigger strokes across the board.

If Beretta came out with a 92 compact, DAO that was cut for optics, I might have to put a substantial number of Glock 19s on the chopping block.

[kjr_29]

My life is becoming increasingly revolver-centric in two niches: the J-frame niche, and the Woods Gun niche. The Glock 19 has increasingly become an outlier in the "Mid-size gun that I need a cover garnet to conceal" niche.

I have a significant amount of money in Glock 19s, but as I consider the cost of changing them all to red dots, I'm also considering changing platforms for the first time in 15 years. I know plenty of people do it, but I just don't like carrying a striker-fired gun AIWB, and I'd like to have common-ish trigger strokes across the board.

If Beretta came out with a 92 compact, DAO that was cut for optics, I might have to put a substantial number of Glock 19s on the chopping block.

+1, headed roughly the same direction. Consumed lots of DB podcast time over the last six months and his ‘assessment speed’ discussions are striking a chord with me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Rex G]

I loved P229R DAK, at the first dry-fire, and live-fire only made it better. I would have preferred P226 or P220, but, at that time, in 2004, my only authorized SIG duty pistol choice was the P229. Notably, DAK was not forced upon me; DA/SA was the norm, for those of us who opted for SIG. (We had to buy our own duty firearms, so, we were voting with our wallets.) I never bothered with the shorter, first reset. The second, more-forward reset position provided the longer, but the sweeter trigger stroke. I saw no reason to try re-learning anything, especially as DA revolvers were/are still important to me.

I retired my P229, due to the high bore axis, the light alloy frame, and, the then-mandated .40 S&W becoming .40 Snap & Whip, due to my arthritis in my right thumb, habd, and wrist. When my chief OK’ed 9mm duty pistols, in September 2015, I bought a low-bore-axis Gen4 G17 orthopedic pistol, and qual’ed with it at my October qualification. (Gen4 fit me MUCH better than the Gen3 G22 pistols I used on duty from 2002 to 2004.)

I still have my P229R DAK. It is now a lefty-only gun, which is OK, as I am a natural left-hander, who chose to carry on my right hip, for several reasons, ‘way back when. With fresh .40 S&W defensive ammo just beginning to show itself, again, I might even put it back into the home defense line-up.

[Lester Polfus]

I loved P229R DAK, at the first dry-fire, and live-fire only made it better. I would have preferred P226 or P220, but, at that time, in 2004, my only authorized SIG duty pistol choice was the P229. Notably, DAK was not forced upon me; DA/SA was the norm, for those of us who opted for SIG. (We had to buy our own duty firearms, so, we were voting with our wallets.) I never bothered with the shorter, first reset. The second, more-forward reset position provided the longer, but the sweeter trigger stroke. I saw no reason to try re-learning anything, especially as DA revolvers were/are still important to me.

I retired my P229, due to the high bore axis, the light alloy frame, and, the then-mandated .40 S&W becoming .40 Snap & Whip, due to my arthritis in my right thumb, habd, and wrist. When my chief OK’ed 9mm duty pistols, in September 2015, I bought a low-bore-axis Gen4 G17 orthopedic pistol, and qual’ed with it at my October qualification. (Gen4 fit me MUCH better than the Gen3 G22 pistols I used on duty from 2002 to 2004.)

I still have my P229R DAK. It is now a lefty-only gun, which is OK, as I am a natural left-hander, who chose to carry on my right hip, for several reasons, ‘way back when. With fresh .40 S&W defensive ammo just beginning to show itself, again, I might even put it back into the home defense line-up.

One of the biggest gifts that have ever been given to me as a someone who may someday have to defend his family was DBs comment here years ago about how many self-defense shootings happen with a loved one down range, interspersed with threats.

That's essentially an in-extremis hostage rescue, without any of the benefits that come with being a patrol cop, much less a SWAT cop.

Prior to that, I was training for a "reasonable" level of accuracy and deliberation in shooting. I have upped that game considerably.

[Rex G]

One of the biggest gifts that have ever been given to me as a someone who may someday have to defend his family was DBs comment here years ago about how many self-defense shootings happen with a loved one down range, interspersed with threats.

That's essentially an in-extremis hostage rescue, without any of the benefits that come with being a patrol cop, much less a SWAT cop.

Prior to that, I was training for a "reasonable" level of accuracy and deliberation in shooting. I have upped that game considerably.

Yes, indeed; accuracy, deliberation, and constantly assessing. Assessing everything.

[Noah]

If Beretta came out with a 92 compact, DAO that was cut for optics, I might have to put a substantial number of Glock 19s on the chopping block.

This setup could pretty easily be created with the Langdon red dot milling.

[Lester Polfus]

This setup could pretty easily be created with the Langdon red dot milling.

Yes. And last night this conversation was the impetus to finally check out all the stuff Langdon is offering.

It's compelling. And expensive. But if I make the jump, it might be the way to go.

Right now is a shitty time to make a major switch. For one thing we just bought a new truck and camp trailer. We aren't broke, but I'm gonna want a few months of good book royalties before I go swapping guns around. The other is that while I have "enough" 9mm on hand to sustain my current skill level with a disciplined practice regimen, I don't want to burn the 10K rounds or so that I would want to 1) vet new guns and optics and 2) build skills on a new platform AND a new sighting system.

So this whole thing will likely be shelved until we reach a new normal and the gun world, and I can go to a red dot-centric class.

There's also a non-trivial chance the new "mid-sized belt guns hat requires a cover garment" niche will be filled by a Smith 66-8 with a red dot.

[wvincent]

One of the biggest gifts that have ever been given to me as a someone who may someday have to defend his family was DBs comment here years ago about how many self-defense shootings happen with a loved one down range, interspersed with threats.

That's essentially an in-extremis hostage rescue, without any of the benefits that come with being a patrol cop, much less a SWAT cop.

Prior to that, I was training for a "reasonable" level of accuracy and deliberation in shooting. I have upped that game considerably.

I get what you're saying, and it sounds like you have made a rational decision in the plan for protecting you and yours.
But I have a question. In the unfortunate instance of having to take that shot with a loved one down range, would you really choose the deliberateness of the DAO, or would you choose the "surgical" trigger of a 1911/2011? I honestly can't decide. On one hand, the B-8's don't lie, and favors the 2011 as far as group size, but the huge adrenaline dump that's gonna be involved in that type of shot does advocate for the DAO, in my case the 64-8.

DB frustrates me a bit. Just when I think I have an action plan, it's like he walks up and dumps a 5 gallon bucket of realities and new things to consider on top of my head, "Here ya go, Sport". He makes it look so frigging easy, with the high standard of accuracy, shooting at assessment speed, and the muzzle discipline, but man, it's really a lot of work for this normal earth person. And I'm pretty damned grateful he share this with us.

I wish I could be classy like Trooper224, and rock the incredible 3rd Gen Smith & Wesson triplets like he is. But the lack of support for a discontinued model scares me off. So really, I either stay with my 64-8, or go to a 92 D model, if I end up going to DAO.

As far as book royalties go, check your PM's.

[Trooper224]

I will say that a slicked up 92D would be far more agreeable to me than that gun vomit Sig put out with the DAK.

DB and I had an exchange last week via text message that began with me complimenting him on his emphasis on assessment in training. This is something I've harped on for years, being part of my "software rather than hardware solutions" philosophy. In my opinion, too much emphasis has been placed on speed in modern training. (we won't even get into hardware, that's a whole other discussion) Draw faster, shoot faster, reload faster, faster, faster, faster..... This comes from two places, IMHO: trainers with experience in either competition or military application. I've done both, so I'm not saying either context is bad. However, the first is competing for trophies, coins, or some kind of participation medal where misses can be made up for with increased speed. The second works in any environment where a certain amount of collateral damage is acceptable. None of that applies in LE or civilian contexts. I've used a gun three times in my life for its intended purpose, raw speed never was a deciding factor in any of those. Keeping my head in the game beforehand and recognizing when things were about to go sideways definitely was. It's entirely possible to outshoot your ability to assess, we see that time after time in current LE shootings. Somewhere along the way, "Shoot until the target is neutralized." became, "Hose it until the gun runs dry. Did you really need to shoot Little Ray Ray fifteen times? Maybe you did, if so rock on. But how did you know? Where was your assessment? You were pulling the trigger as fast as you could as soon as you cleared the holster and didn't stop until you had to reload. It looked like you were trying to show Taran Butler your precious. What you didn't look like was a trained professional. We used to teach assessment in shooting but that seems to have fallen out of favor and replaced with the School of John Wick. Everyone wants to train with the DeltaDEVGRURanger with the thundering neck beard and sleeve tatts, or the Grand Pooba Master of some shooting sport or another, who hands out coins and hats to a few worthy of a selfie, at the end of class. No one wants to train with the fat old retired cop who spent decades policing urban America and had to make the very assessments we're talking about. Most of those guys are throwing up their hands in frustration and giving up on training, which is a big loss to everyone.

In the context of an armed citizen it's not just your loved ones you should be concerned over. In all likelyhood, there'll be someone downrage. Whether you know them or not doesn't matter, you're accountable for every shot you fire and you have no big government machine backing you up. The main reason why I've gravitated towards DA/SA guns is the safety buffer that initial DA pull provides against me screwing the pooch and everyone screws the pooch. I've done it for decades at a serious level and I freely admit I've had a few of those moments over the years. My lightbulb moment came back in the bronze age when I watched a Navy SEAL blow two of his own toes off with a shotgun. If a switched on pipehitter can do that what about the rest of us? I still stuck with the 1911 for decades after, but I started taking things a bit more seriously after that. Now that I'm getting old and creaky I like the thought of a little extra preventative help. I competed in bullseye competition for years, both with pistol and rifle and I always nagged on accuracy when I was on the job. Remember Coopers triad: Accuracy, Power, Speed, in that order. Power and speed should really be lower cased, because accuracy is the only thing that really matters. If you can shoot, they'll all work.

Anything that gives you even a split second to assess and evaluate is a good thing, it can make all the difference. If it's a piece of hardware like a TDA or a DAO trigger than all the better.

[wvincent]

That's some excellent shit right there^^^.
Bolke's "hammer pair" and "shoot at assessment speed" was a much needed punch in the junk for me.
It totally changed my goals.

I know I have the accuracy advantage with that 2011 trigger, but I should probably just quit crying around about it and put the work in on the DAO, cause of the above post.

Thanks

[revchuck38]

No one wants to train with the fat old retired cop who spent decades policing urban America and had to make the very assessments we're talking about.

But...but...but...I've trained with Darryl! :)

[HCM]

I will say that a slicked up 92D would be far more agreeable to me than that gun vomit Sig put out with the DAK.

DB and I had an exchange last week via text message that began with me complimenting him on his emphasis on assessment in training. This is something I've harped on for years, being part of my "software rather than hardware solutions" philosophy. In my opinion, too much emphasis has been placed on speed in modern training. (we won't even get into hardware, that's a whole other discussion) Draw faster, shoot faster, reload faster, faster, faster, faster..... This comes from two places, IMHO: trainers with experience in either competition or military application. I've done both, so I'm not saying either context is bad. However, the first is competing for trophies, coins, or some kind of participation medal where misses can be made up for with increased speed. The second works in any environment where a certain amount of collateral damage is acceptable. None of that applies in LE or civilian contexts. I've used a gun three times in my life for its intended purpose, raw speed never was a deciding factor in any of those. Keeping my head in the game beforehand and recognizing when things were about to go sideways definitely was. It's entirely possible to outshoot your ability to assess, we see that time after time in current LE shootings. Somewhere along the way, "Shoot until the target is neutralized." became, "Hose it until the gun runs dry. Did you really need to shoot Little Ray Ray fifteen times? Maybe you did, if so rock on. But how did you know? Where was your assessment? You were pulling the trigger as fast as you could as soon as you cleared the holster and didn't stop until you had to reload. It looked like you were trying to show Taran Butler your precious. What you didn't look like was a trained professional. We used to teach assessment in shooting but that seems to have fallen out of favor and replaced with the School of John Wick. Everyone wants to train with the DeltaDEVGRURanger with the thundering neck beard and sleeve tatts, or the Grand Pooba Master of some shooting sport or another, who hands out coins and hats to a few worthy of a selfie, at the end of class. No one wants to train with the fat old retired cop who spent decades policing urban America and had to make the very assessments we're talking about. Most of those guys are throwing up their hands in frustration and giving up on training, which is a big loss to everyone.

In the context of an armed citizen it's not just your loved ones you should be concerned over. In all likelyhood, there'll be someone downrage. Whether you know them or not doesn't matter, you're accountable for every shot you fire and you have no big government machine backing you up. The main reason why I've gravitated towards DA/SA guns is the safety buffer that initial DA pull provides against me screwing the pooch and everyone screws the pooch. I've done it for decades at a serious level and I freely admit I've had a few of those moments over the years. My lightbulb moment came back in the bronze age when I watched a Navy SEAL blow two of his own toes off with a shotgun. If a switched on pipehitter can do that what about the rest of us? I still stuck with the 1911 for decades after, but I started taking things a bit more seriously after that. Now that I'm getting old and creaky I like the thought of a little extra preventative help. I competed in bullseye competition for years, both with pistol and rifle and I always nagged on accuracy when I was on the job. Remember Coopers triad: Accuracy, Power, Speed, in that order. Power and speed should really be lower cased, because accuracy is the only thing that really matters. If you can shoot, they'll all work.

Anything that gives you even a split second to assess and evaluate is a good thing, it can make all the difference. If it's a piece of hardware like a TDA or a DAO trigger than all the better.


https://youtu.be/8YMA7Y7aer0

[HCM]

That's some excellent shit right there^^^.
Bolke's "hammer pair" and "shoot at assessment speed" was a much needed punch in the junk for me.
It totally changed my goals.

I know I have the accuracy advantage with that 2011 trigger, but I should probably just quit crying around about it and put the work in on the DAO, cause of the above post.

Thanks

Nothing about a 2011 trigger precludes you from shooting an assessment speed. That is a training issue not a hardware issue. One school of thought is that a longer heavier trigger pole like a DAO can act as a crutch or Governor to force you into assessment speed. The other school of thought is the shorter lighter the trigger pull gives you more time to assess since you can break an accurate shot quicker once you have assessed it necessary.

Nor should “assessment speed” be an excuse for being slow once the decision is made.

[Trooper224]

Nothing about a 2011 trigger precludes you from shooting an assessment speed. That is a training issue not a hardware issue. One school of thought is that a longer heavier trigger pole like a DAO can act as a crutch or Governor to force you into assessment speed. The other school of thought is the shorter lighter the trigger pull gives you more time to assess since you can break an accurate shot quicker once you have assessed it necessary.

Nor should “assessment speed” be an excuse for being slow once the decision is made.

Very true. It's not an equipment issue per se, relating to my earlier software/hardware statement. The equipment is all good. We have better equipment than ever before, but we can't spend so much time chasing a shot timer that our mechanics are outrunning our processing. The equipment isn't the defining factor in that processing, but everyone needs to decide where they want to live in that loop.

[WobblyPossum]

Some gold from Trooper224. That was a very well thought out post. I’ve noticed myself being lax about this in practice recently. I think I’ll shrink my acceptable hit zones and start working on slowing myself down to the point where I only shoot at the speed at which I can guarantee hitting those targets. I think I have gotten into that mindset of racing the timer and accepting more slop than I should in order to finish what I’m doing within a certain timeframe.

[Trooper224]

Some gold from Trooper224. That was a very well thought out post. I’ve noticed myself being lax about this in practice recently. I think I’ll shrink my acceptable hit zones and start working on slowing myself down to the point where I only shoot at the speed at which I can guarantee hitting those targets. I think I have gotten into that mindset of racing the timer and accepting more slop than I should in order to finish what I’m doing within a certain timeframe.

I noticed myself falling into this trap a while back. I'd been carrying the Beretta 92 for the previous four or five years when I decided to go bad to the 1911. (No concrete reason, more out of a desire to keep it interesting. I still think the 92's awesome.) I've used a 1911 so long that the motor functions are pretty automatic, so there wasn't any real relearning curve. After a few training sessions, I noticed I was absolutely blazing through drills. After spending a few years with a TDA pistol it felt as if the 1911 was almost shooting itself, I was just along for the ride. I also realized I was getting awfully lazy in my processing and mechanics. I can get a bit edgy with form and still do good work with the 1911. I decided to go back to a TDA pistol for several reasons, high on the list was that I don't have decades of experience with the type, so my skill set is more perishable with it. Consequently, it forces me to maintain my concentration on form and fundamentals. I can blaze with it, but it shows me pretty quickly when I'm getting lazy. One moment I'm thinking, "That's some John Wick shit right there." If I'm not in the zone it's, "I hope no one saw that."

[wvincent]

Nothing about a 2011 trigger precludes you from shooting an assessment speed. That is a training issue not a hardware issue. One school of thought is that a longer heavier trigger pole like a DAO can act as a crutch or Governor to force you into assessment speed. The other school of thought is the shorter lighter the trigger pull gives you more time to assess since you can break an accurate shot quicker once you have assessed it necessary.

Nor should “assessment speed” be an excuse for being slow once the decision is made.

Yep, I love that 2011 trigger, and the way that grip module absorbs that recoil. Sometimes maybe a little too much.
I just need to develop the self discipline to not race the timer.

I guess I just need to go to HITS and let Bolke and Dobbs holler at me a bit. I suspect that will go a long way towards quitting that bad habit.

[Trooper224]

But...but...but...I've trained with Darryl! :)

Then you're a lucky man.

[TheNewbie]

Where are these DB podcast/interviews to be found?

[kjr_29]

Where are these DB podcast/interviews to be found?

On Duty/Off Duty or Primary and Secondary.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Sauer Koch]

Both episodes of the OD/OD show were excellent, as were a few he did on Civilian Carry Radio, one of which included Chuck Haggard.

[Hemiram]

A couple of years ago, I bought a P220 DAK on impulse. It was amazing. So smooth, and it was cheap! Thinking, "I really like the DAK trigger", I bought a P229 DAK. Another PD trade in. Well now, it wasn't even in the same universe as the P220. I hated it. I got rid of it pretty quickly, and soon bought a DAO P226 that was an ex-NYPD gun. I wasn't impressed, and soon converted that over to DA/SA. So far, I haven't shot another DAK gun that is even close to the P220. A couple of the ones I have tried are custom ones and the work they had done on them alone cost as much as my gun did! Quite a few people have shot my P220 and they all say the same thing, "If my DAK was like that, I would still have it!". I've been offered a nice chunk of change for it, but it's not going anywhere. Great gun at $400, with new night sights, the tuned up DAK trigger, and in about 98%+ condition. I don't have any pics of it, it's in the back of the safe. I wish I knew what dept it came from and who did the work on it. If I could, I would buy a cheap P226 DAK next time I see one and send it to them to get the trigger my P220 DAK does.

[willie]

The 92 dao is my all time favorite. I mastered da long before ever shooting one. I regret not keeping the one I had. After reading the thread, I conclude that mastering what you got is the essential element. I know that sounds common place or trite. We here can perform well with various platforms; hence we are discussing what we prefer. I think dao pistols may have lower incidences of nd's. I see that as their advantage and not anything else. But I am not a professional. I shoot dirt clods and stumps.

[gato naranja]

The 92 dao is my all time favorite. I mastered da long before ever shooting one. I regret not keeping the one I had. After reading the thread, I conclude that mastering what you got is the essential element. I know that sounds common place or trite. We here can perform well with various platforms; hence we are discussing what we prefer. I think dao pistols may have lower incidences of nd's. I see that as their advantage and not anything else. But I am not a professional. I shoot dirt clods and stumps.

And empty cans. Lots of empty cans.

What you say about mastering what you have should have been written on a card and tied to my tail a long time ago (the wife nods vigorously in the background). I was SO ready to get rid of my (now) favorite CCW handgun - a PX4 Subcompact - before I gave it a chance.

As for DAO, the low-key and humble NanX (vetted Nano with retrofitted APX grip frame and slide stop) remains my semiauto analogue for the J-frame. Newer things have tempted me, but I have got that one down solid and it is nice and reassuring vis-à-vis nd's.

[pangloss]

I have a 92DX that has a front sight that leans slightly to one side. This can be seen when focusing on the top of the front sight--however, because the sight is a "drive the dot" style and the rear sight is a U-notch, I've found that, when actually shooting, I don't notice the angle of the front sight. It's annoying that Beretta would let them out the door that way, but not enough to make me forego owning one--or three :D

My 92DX arrived today, and the front sight looks fine, aside from being a little off center. To my eye, vertical alignment of the sight is perfect. A Berretta connoisseur might be able to find some blemish, but there's nothing that jumps out to my eye. My trigger pull gauge tops out at 10 lbs, and the pull on this pistol seems to be well above that. It's smooth, but with some stacking at the end. I should have time to shoot it this weekend.

[RevolverRob]

Yep, I love that 2011 trigger, and the way that grip module absorbs that recoil. Sometimes maybe a little too much.
I just need to develop the self discipline to not race the timer.

I guess I just need to go to HITS and let Bolke and Dobbs holler at me a bit. I suspect that will go a long way towards quitting that bad habit.

One of the things I've worked in live fire is loading mags with 3 or fewer rounds and then setting a par time that is "generous" with a high accuracy standard. Example B8, 7 yards, 3 rounds, shot from concealment, 3.5 seconds par.

I think this is one real mental advantage of lower capacity guns. They force you to adopt an attitude for high accountability, because there won't be a lot of do-overs.

[willie]

About the sights. Remember that these are military weapons. Most likely Beretta used a jig to install and align the sights. Poi will be within that saucer at 25 yards. Look at the the slide and barrel from the front end. I never saw one where the barrel appeared perfectly centered. Since both front and rear sights move within slots, the owner has much adjustment freedom. But remember that moving the front sight to the left moves impact point to the right. I was 50 years old before I learned to quit fixing shit that was not broke. Sometimes it's difficult.

[SeriousStudent]

I was fortunate enough to attend Darryl and Wayne's High Accountability Workshop (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46847-HiTS-High-Accountability-Pistol-Workshop-03-14-2021-Dallas) a couple weeks ago.

Darryl ran us through several challenging drills on relatively small targets with no-shoots everywhere, and the firing solution (number of rounds and location) wasn't obvious. He demonstrated that once things got challenging, split times for everybody jumped to .50 to 1.00+ second splits, regardless of skill level. The task complexity and cognitive load were the limiting factor, not the trigger style.

Another thing I noted was decocking, and presumably safety-ing the gun. I've been doing the DA/SA thing for a couple years now and haven't noticed any trouble following a relatively strict decock protocol (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8992) in training/practice/sport, but during the class I neglected to decock on several transitions that definitely deserved decocks. I don't think I missed the decock because I was overloaded so much as because I hadn't worked that type of transition before, the actions didn't "trigger" a decock response. Honestly this was one of my bigger takeaways from the class and I saw the benefit of a DAO gun for this type of work.


That was pretty much my take-away from the class as well. I made a point of shooting the class with three different pistols - all .22's. I wanted to test the slightly heavier trigger pull but with a long DAO action.

So I went with a S&W 43c in the left front pocket, and Ruger LCR .22 in the right front pocket. Working from the pocket is something I frequently do, and it's usually with a DAO wheelgun.

Of course, shooting that last Snake drill with a suppressed Beretta 92 Vertec was done strictly for entertainment purposes. It was a hellova lot of fun, too! That thing is stupid quiet with a newly-cleaned Dead Air can on it, and fed with Fiocchi subsonics. :)

[SeriousStudent]

......

I guess I just need to go to HITS and let Bolke and Dobbs holler at me a bit. I suspect that will go a long way towards quitting that bad habit.


Dooo eeett!! :)

They are going to do another High Accountability class this fall.

And maybe a different class at Mead Hall this fall as well. I'll let ya know what I hear.

[wvincent]

One of the things I've worked in live fire is loading mags with 3 or fewer rounds and then setting a par time that is "generous" with a high accuracy standard. Example B8, 7 yards, 3 rounds, shot from concealment, 3.5 seconds par.

I think this is one real mental advantage of lower capacity guns. They force you to adopt an attitude for high accountability, because there won't be a lot of do-overs.

Yeah, I need to get over this bad groove I've gotten into, some part of my peabrain must still think there is a prize for first one to have an empty magazine:rolleyes:

[wvincent]

Dooo eeett!! :)

They are going to do another High Accountability class this fall.

And maybe a different class at Mead Hall this fall as well. I'll let ya know what I hear.

Will you holler at me too? Or does that cost extra?

[JRB]

I recently acquired a 92D. SN puts it in early 90's production and it is absolutely wonderful.

Comparing it to my old faithful INOX 92FS has been surprising. Having formally instructed a lot of Soldiers on the M9 it has always been a struggle with new shooters to fully explain DA/SA operation, decocking, the safety, best practices when clearing the weapon, etc. For new shooters there's just a lot of 'gun' to discuss which takes time away from discussing good handling and technique.

The more I dry fire and handle the 92D the more I think it would have been a better choice than the M9 for 99%+ of the Soldiers that end up carrying a pistol.

[gunrascal]

Anyone still use and like a sig p250?

[SeriousStudent]

Will you holler at me too? Or does that cost extra?

I shall indeed, and at no extra charge.

[gc70]

Anyone still use and like a sig p250?

Absolutely. The P250 is the highest-capacity flat revolver I own.

[entropy]

I gifted a 250 to our oldest son when he turned 21. It’s been his carry piece since. Came across a larger grip frame and slide in .40 (the original was 9mm) and couldn’t pass it up. I thought it made the perfect choice for a first time pistol. He qualed on it for his CCW and won’t look at anything else. I wish I would have bought two!

[TheNewbie]

I gifted a 250 to our oldest son when he turned 21. It’s been his carry piece since. Came across a larger grip frame and slide in .40 (the original was 9mm) and couldn’t pass it up. I thought it made the perfect choice for a first time pistol. He qualed on it for his CCW and won’t look at anything else. I wish I would have bought two!


I gifted one to my brother. Wish I had gifted him a Glock instead.


Miss the P250.

[Spartan1980]

I stupidly sold a P250 in .45ACP. It had a very nice trigger on it too. *hitshimselfinhead*

In my "defense" it was when I was just entering USPSA and I was after the Ultimate Speedoblaster2000. Shortly after I got bit by the revolver bug again and spent a couple of years playing USPSA in that. *hitshimselfinheadagain*

[backtrail540]

https://www.usacarry.com/sig-p250-review/

Speaking of the p250, i enjoyed this article awhile back. If you look at his other articles you see where he mentions it several times and put some time in with it.

The author is a member here but I'm not sure he's still around or wants to be called out. I had a pleasant exchange with him about the p250 briefly in 2020 and kind of got my mind turning toward wanting to play with some dao.

[OlongJohnson]

Anyone still use and like a sig p250?

Yes.

Smoothest, lightest DAO trigger I have, and the springs are stock. Better than K frames, better than a 92D. I have one classic Sig that comes close, but it's a freak and also chokes on out-of-spec Winchester cases. It's been awhile since I've compared the P250 directly to my GP MC that's slicked up, but they are close in smoothness and the GP is heavier, no doubt.

The first P250 was a .22LR when they got blown out cheap on GB. That was pretty good as it came. I then picked up a .380. It had been a carry gun in FL and had some sand in it. When I got it all apart, I started looking, and had to slick up some surfaces just a bit. Then it was so much better, I had to do the same to the .22. They are both the same and both awesome now. Takes very little to get them there, and the surfaces that need work are, IMO, zero risk for any negative effect on function or safety.

I've had the .22LR keyhole at short distances with some powdercoated CCI ammo, but with different ammo, it's been fine.

Kinda wish I'd picked up a pair of 9s when they were cheapish.

Stopped thinking about picking up a .45 full size when I realized mags cost more than USP .45 mags, of which I already have enough.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Anyone still use and like a sig p250?

I've been pretty vocal about my use of the P250c her on PF and have two...one for duty/carry and one for practice. They are almost perfect, and therein lies the rub.
I have small hands...glove size is 6C. I use the factory small grip modules and the trigger reach is just a hair beyond ideal, whereas the trigger reach on my K9 and SP101 are ideal for me. Sig used to offer a Short Reach Trigger for the P250, which might fix my issue, but supply has dried up, along with support like armorer tools, since it was discontinued. I have recently transitioned to a 1911 with short trigger/arched MSH/slim grips. The SAO trigger doesn't require as much leverage to operate as a DAO one.

That being said, my P250's are not going anywhere. They still stand bedside duty, when I'm doing dirty/nasty work, or when teaching, as a hammer-fired DA trigger is better for demonstrating trigger control and the like. I may try out one of the Wilson grip modules in the future. I really wish I could score a couple of the Short Reach Triggers.

[Dog Guy]

Anyone still use and like a sig p250?

I'm very happy with mine for reasons already described by others. My first gen was a mess, but my 2nd gen are all fine. The down side is the lack of aftermarket items like sights, holsters, etc. I'd love to mount a red dot on mine since my eyes are not getting along well with iron sights anymore so if anyone has a lead on getting P250 milling done, chime in (probably Holosun).

[entropy]

What issues did you have with the first one?

[HCM]

Since we are going down that road.

69766

[TheNewbie]

I wish I had bought 5 or 6 P250 compacts when they were super cheap. That should last me a lifetime, even if a few went down.



At some point in the future, I am sure some high speed been there done that instructor will make the DAO popular again. Sadly that person is probably just being born and by the time he does it, I will be looking for that easy to rack slide more than a DAO gun.

[deputyG23]

I've been pretty vocal about my use of the P250c her on PF and have two...one for duty/carry and one for practice. They are almost perfect, and therein lies the rub.
I have small hands...glove size is 6C. I use the factory small grip modules and the trigger reach is just a hair beyond ideal, whereas the trigger reach on my K9 and SP101 are ideal for me. Sig used to offer a Short Reach Trigger for the P250, which might fix my issue, but supply has dried up, along with support like armorer tools, since it was discontinued. I have recently transitioned to a 1911 with short trigger/arched MSH/slim grips. The SAO trigger doesn't require as much leverage to operate as a DAO one.

That being said, my P250's are not going anywhere. They still stand bedside duty, when I'm doing dirty/nasty work, or when teaching, as a hammer-fired DA trigger is better for demonstrating trigger control and the like. I may try out one of the Wilson grip modules in the future. I really wish I could score a couple of the Short Reach Triggers.

I love mine as described earlier in this thread.
They pop up for sale occasionally in the VA Gun Trader page.
I want another one.

[gc70]

What issues did you have with the first one?

My son bought a 1st generation P250 as soon as he could find one. It was a dream to shoot; the trigger pull weight was like a Glock and, while trigger travel was long, the trigger stroke was as smooth as a S&W revolver with custom trigger work.

Unfortunately, the gun started having light primer strikes after about 100 rounds. The more the gun was shot, the more frequent were the light strikes, until the gun would not shoot at all. That turned out to be a fairly frequent problem until the 2nd generation guns were introduced.

BTW the "mainspring" of a P250 is a set of 2 nested springs located inside the hammer. It should have been no surprise that such a unique design would have initial problems.

[Dog Guy]

My p250 gen 1 had light primer strikes. It also had numerous failures to extract with several different brands/loads. Most of those were pretty tight in the chamber when I tapped them out with a dowel, so I expect the chamber was out of spec. I have in mind that there were three issues, but it's been a while and I don't remember what number three was. I just lost confidence in it so I sold it with full disclosure and went Glock 19. I'd probably still be G19 but a nerve injury made the DAO trigger stroke a better bet for me, and Sig had solved the p250 issues so I went back. I have two late manufacture p250c and two p250sc in 9mm and all four of them have run without a hiccup.

[Bigghoss]

NOS 5946 buy it now for $680 on GB

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/896444502

[gunrascal]

My Sig 250sc runs great also, and I have no trouble using my p229 no rail holsters for it.

[entropy]

Local range/shop had a stainless DAO ‘Smith of some kind. Looked to be a 4”-ish barrel. 2 mags. $359. I stared a bit but walked away. I’d rather find a nice 4” K-frame.

I have to look, but I’m pretty sure my 229 still has the DAO parts in it. I went thru a “phase” before the Sigs went to the back of the safe. Nice smooth pull on it. It wasn’t the fastest for splits, but it was idiot proof in operation.

[1dude1dog1gun]

I know there are a handful of us on here currently experimenting with or who are just general fans of the DAO guns at the moment. This can be a place to discuss rare finds or to talk about the things regarding dao guns that don't merit their own thread. I'm currently running a 92dxr with ltt rdo slide.

There are a few other dao designs I want to play with - namely a p250 (I know of at least one member who was running one well last year with various p320 modules), a dao variant of the px4 (seems easily switched with a d hammer assembly available at MGW), and one of the rare p09/07 dao guns for the mhs trials (dao parts were available at numerich for a bit, though I'm not sure of current availability).

I just came across this dao Hi Power on gunbroker and it intrigued me.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/895814715

I saw DB's m9a1 compact D build. I've got a d centurion slide/parts kit from everygunpartdotcom. Eventually I hope to get a compact lower to put it on.

What DAO guns have you ran/are running currently?

I learned (still learning)to shoot with my p250c 9mm. I knew a lot of nothing about pistols/firearms in general (still don’t know shit) and the p250 had to deal with all the mistakes noobs make with anything. I’ve never once had any failures of any type. I’m probably north of 2500rounds to date. It was beyond frustrating shooting this pistol. I was doing tons of research on the pistol and it was pretty well obvious that people hated the duty trigger/travel. For beginners like myself, I think it’s another layer of safety and now I absolutely love my duty triggers, I love the long travel, I love the fact that I can have an entire conversation in the time it takes the trigger to break. I see people always tryna get match style triggers in there edc and that’s cool, you do you, and I’ll be lookin at how to make a trigger heavier 🤘. I recently bought my second firearm/pistol very recently and it’s nice and I’m happy with it so far...I have yet to shoot it but hey, soon. The only reason I bought another one was someone told me that saying “beware the man with one gun”. I totally get the philosophy but all I heard is “beware the man with one gun, he ultimately becomes a man with no gun”. Shit breaks, were humans. So that lead me to buy my 2nd. But it’ll be difficult for me to replace my p250c as edc because I would honestly stake my life on that pistol firing each and every time. I do 99% of my shooting in the country outside city limits and have actually dropped it in muddy nasty muck water that’s been baking in the summer sun for days. It was so gnarly that it was teaming with life. Still went bang. If I remember right, that muck water blasted right in me mouth. I know the p250 has a bad rap but I don’t care. I bought this pistol just about a year ago now and all I’ve done is bought the Gen2 grip module w/SCA and a factory recoil spring.

[Stephanie B]

Local range/shop had a stainless DAO ‘Smith of some kind. Looked to be a 4”-ish barrel. 2 mags. $359. I stared a bit but walked away. I’d rather find a nice 4” K-frame.

I have a 6946, which is akin to having a 13-shot revolver (or 11-shot, since I moved).

[314159]

A PX4 C-note: Cannot be converted to the Langdon RDO sight system.

"I shot the PX4 before it was cool" also. (It was the PX4 C version also). I came back to this platform last year and paid way too much for revisiting the past. The C does not have re-strike capability but the trigger qualities really are better than the D. So, if it misfires, pretend you have a Glock with a misfire. Further note: both Cs and Ds are full size only, if that matters to you.

Anyway, I sent my C model to Langdon a couple of weeks ago and it was promptly returned to me with the note that it was not eligible for their RDO cut. I'm not entirely clear why but kudos to Langdon for a very fast return of my slide anyway.

[roboster2013]

I've got a few DAOs that I like to shoot. P229 DAO, P229 DAK, and a P250. All in .40.

[1dude1dog1gun]

I've got a few DAOs that I like to shoot. P229 DAO, P229 DAK, and a P250. All in .40.

Very nice line up! Tell me, do the other dao Sig models you own have a high bore axis? I’ve heard lots of ppl bust chops about it. But comparing my striker pistol that has a lower bore axis to my Sig , seems the grip on the p250c’s beaver tail is definitely to my liking. Do all typical dao pistols have a higher bore axis then typical strikers’ due to the hammer or is that more of just a design thing?

[1dude1dog1gun]

I'm very happy with mine for reasons already described by others. My first gen was a mess, but my 2nd gen are all fine. The down side is the lack of aftermarket items like sights, holsters, etc. I'd love to mount a red dot on mine since my eyes are not getting along well with iron sights anymore so if anyone has a lead on getting P250 milling done, chime in (probably Holosun).

I tried every Avenue of milling my p250c and it can’t be done for two main reasons
This is what I was told by Sig and several parts manufacturers.
1-rear irons are apart of the firing mechanism
2-there’s not enough “meat” left on the slide to mount a red dot properly.

I have considered some type of bonding agent but that’s going to far if you ask me

[roboster2013]

Very nice line up! Tell me, do the other dao Sig models you own have a high bore axis? I’ve heard lots of ppl bust chops about it. But comparing my striker pistol that has a lower bore axis to my Sig , seems the grip on the p250c’s beaver tail is definitely to my liking. Do all typical dao pistols have a higher bore axis then typical strikers’ due to the hammer or is that more of just a design thing?

From a technical standpoint, they do have a higher bore axis in that the axis is higher from the shooters grip than say a Glock. But I don't feel like it affects the way it shoots appreciably recoil and accuracy wise, and I don't think the amount of muzzle flip is all that bad. I like my 229s a lot, and I shoot them reasonably well. Hammer fired handguns do tend to have a higher bore axis than striker fired guns, but they also have a lower alignment index (The alignment of the centerline of the trigger, to the centerline of the grip curve) than a striker fired gun. So, there are trade offs with every platform.

[backtrail540]

Came across these dao conversions for fans of the sig sp's.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/929472442

[TheNewbie]

Came across these dao conversions for fans of the sig sp's.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/929472442


Irrationally makes me want to get a 2022.

[HCM]

Came across these dao conversions for fans of the sig sp's.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/929472442


Irrationally makes me want to get a 2022.


For clarification- These are not conversions TO DAO.

Theses are the parts to convert FROM DAO to DA/SA.


Sig Pro Double Action CONVERSION SP2340 & SP2022
GET RID OF DAO!!! Complete Hammer Box w/Decocker

For auction, today is a factory hammer box for the Sig Pro series of pistols. This includes models also known as SP 2340, SP 2009, as SP 2022. The modular hammer unit can be swapped in moments without tools! Get rid of that long double action only trigger pull and upgrade to faster, more accurate traditional double-action- allowing single action followup shots.

[backtrail540]

For clarification- These are not conversions TO DAO.

Theses are the parts to convert FROM DAO to DA/SA.


Ooof. What an oversight. That's what i get for skimming and posting. Shame!

[backtrail540]

https://aimsurplus.com/products/sw-used-5946-hga-9mm-4-ss-dao

Some 3rd gen dao. How is the trigger on these? Akin to dao beretta or dak's? or garbage?

[Joe in PNG]

https://aimsurplus.com/products/sw-used-5946-hga-9mm-4-ss-dao

Some 3rd gen dao. How is the trigger on these? Akin to dao beretta or dak's? or garbage?

Not too bad, really. I got one about the same time I snagged my 92D. I sold it because it doesn't have the same sort of resetting trigger that the Beretta does.

[MattyD380]

https://aimsurplus.com/products/sw-used-5946-hga-9mm-4-ss-dao

Some 3rd gen dao. How is the trigger on these? Akin to dao beretta or dak's? or garbage?

Of all the 80s/90s TDA platforms... I like the DA pull on the 3rd gens best. They don't have the lightest pulls, necessarily. But the stroke is very even, consistent and it's free of hitchy, grabbiness. You slide right into the break without a ton of stacking, and the hammer falls cleanly without disturbing the sight picture. So, I think that means there's less overtravel. Moreover, I tend to think the strirrup-style trigger bar on the Smiths imparts pressure more evenly to the hammer than the single-sided linkage on Sigs and Berettas. But that's kind of a... theory.

It's also worth noting that the early DAO 3rd gens (like the one listed) have a partially cocked action, so it's probably gonna be a little shorter and lighter than the DA on a DA/SA example. That's why the slide is kinda extended in the rear. Though I've never actually tried a DAO 3rd gen. Which is weird, because I really dig the DA on all the 3rd gens I've owned.

[coN]

This thread is making me miss my P250C. I loved that buttery smooth trigger it had. Are there any modern alternatives in a company?

I'm assuming it's gonna be something from the Beretta family as I have a 92FS and PX4 with extremely similar DA to the P250, just maybe a pound heavier.

[OlongJohnson]

I have a couple of 3953s left because 9mm compact single stack DAO. The trigger presses are 11 lb or more. Lighter springs make them unreliable. I sold all the other 3rd gen stuff I had and have some P250s now. Much better guns, IMO.

[nate89]

I'm a big fan of DAO guns, likely because I also use a snub revolver of some variety pretty regularly. Currently I have a set of 226 DAK guns that are my preference for a semi-auto DAO gun. I was going to try and get a set of P30 LEM guns, but at this point I'm pretty deep into the P series sig ecosystem with holsters, mags, spare parts, etc. and kept seeing police trade-in DAK guns for cheap, and I've been happy. I prefer the DAK over the standard DAO sigs, the trigger is much better in my opinion, and if you want second-strike you can still do that.

[coN]

Y'know it just hit me, wouldn't the SD9VE fall into the DAO category since it's not partially cocked, it has to fully cock the striker before releasing? The pull is very revolver-like at around 8lbs.

[OlongJohnson]

I like the design of the SD9VE better than a Glock, but the manufacturing of the one I had was a garbage show. The recoil spring guide rod failed catastrophically. The striker itself was bent like a banana, with the firing pin hitting the inside of the channel and using up a lot of energy before it emerged to attempt to light a primer. Managed to fix the guide rod by dropping in a shortened G17 part (spring was no longer captured, but no big deal) and S&W sent a new striker (and guide rod) when I described that problem. The last thing was the machining on the striker block's bore in the slide. It was horribly rough, and the only way to get it smooth would have been to machine it oversize and press in a bushing, which would then require additional machining. Not going to spend more than the value of the gun fixing something that would never have been a problem if S&W's machinists were paying attention to tool condition. The gun functioned fine, but I could never get that last bit of roughness out of the trigger that was caused by the striker block. Sent it down the road. I really want to like the SD9, but can't because S&W.