RFI: Walther P38 AC41 [Archive]

03-28-2021, 07:55 PM

I have temporary custody of this WWII pickup Walther P38. I’ll post better pictures soon:

69475

It has been in continuous ownership since it arrived in the US, as far as I know.

Based on some preliminary research, I believe it is a ‘41, ac build (Walther Factory) with matching numbers. There are other markings but I haven’t examined it carefully. The accompanying steel magazine does not match. The leather holster appears issue, but is marked ‘P08’, which I am guessing might not have been unusual during wartime.

It was reported that the gun shot fine, but hasn’t been fired for many years.

The action is relatively smooth; the wear on the finish may be dirt / corrosion as I’ve not looked closely yet. The safety / decocker seems to work. The extractor is present as is the ejector and I can see the firing pin. The DA press is very stout, definitely way above my LCR. The barrel is pretty clean, the chamber free of obvious dirt or grime. I have not dry fired it.

The owner asked me to get some more information, and perhaps clean it up a bit. I thought I would ask here first if there were any knowledgeable Walther smiths on p-f, or someone could point me to one, ideally in Florida?

Are there any obvious things to check on a gun this old?

The grips appear to be bakelite; are these stable under recoil after this many years?

Does the mag disassemble like a modern mag, I.e. depress the catch, slide baseplate off, remove spring and follower?

Would there be any problems in using a modern CLP (Slip 2000 EWL), or should I just stick with Ballistol?

What ammo would you suggest? (The owner is ok shooting it if it checks out)

It’s quite an interesting piece of history. It almost seems like it operates like how I remember an HK USP operates, with the DA/SA and safety/decocker. I can’t verify the loaded chamber indicator works, but I like the concept. I’ll post more info and pictures, and maybe a few more questions, soon. Meanwhile, appreciate any tips or info anyone has. I should be able to keep it for a few weeks at least before returning it.

olstyn

03-28-2021, 08:43 PM

Thanks for sharing a picture. The P1/P38 is a neat piece of history as one of the early DA/SA designs. A lot of the guns that followed pulled a lot of mechanical design cues from it.

Wish I had more knowledge to offer, but I don't. I will say that the folks over at http://waltherforums.com are usually pretty helpful.

Caballoflaco

03-28-2021, 08:47 PM

That’s a cool blaster, but why do you need a gunsmith? If it passes a basic function check I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot it some. Those were well made guns.

Borderland

03-28-2021, 09:26 PM

I had a P-38 for awhile. Accuracy wasn't it's strong suit. Nice piece of military history tho. I would shoot it with ball if you clean it up and it feeds/ejects unfired rounds properly.

Don't expect any modern HK or Walther performance when you shoot it though.

gato naranja

03-29-2021, 10:04 AM

I have temporary custody of this WWII pickup Walther P38.

It has been in continuous ownership since it arrived in the US, as far as I know.

Based on some preliminary research, I believe it is a ‘41, ac build (Walther Factory) with matching numbers. There are other markings but I haven’t examined it carefully. The accompanying steel magazine does not match. The leather holster appears issue, but is marked ‘P08’, which I am guessing might not have been unusual during wartime.

It was reported that the gun shot fine, but hasn’t been fired for many years.

The action is relatively smooth; the wear on the finish may be dirt / corrosion as I’ve not looked closely yet. The safety / decocker seems to work. The extractor is present as is the ejector and I can see the firing pin. The DA press is very stout, definitely way above my LCR. The barrel is pretty clean, the chamber free of obvious dirt or grime. I have not dry fired it.

The owner asked me to get some more information, and perhaps clean it up a bit. I thought I would ask here first if there were any knowledgeable Walther smiths on p-f, or someone could point me to one, ideally in Florida?

Are there any obvious things to check on a gun this old?

The grips appear to be bakelite; are these stable under recoil after this many years?

Does the mag disassemble like a modern mag, I.e. depress the catch, slide baseplate off, remove spring and follower?

Would there be any problems in using a modern CLP (Slip 2000 EWL), or should I just stick with Ballistol?

What ammo would you suggest? (The owner is ok shooting it if it checks out)

It’s quite an interesting piece of history. It almost seems like it operates like how I remember an HK USP operates, with the DA/SA and safety/decocker. I can’t verify the loaded chamber indicator works, but I like the concept. I’ll post more info and pictures, and maybe a few more questions, soon. Meanwhile, appreciate any tips or info anyone has. I should be able to keep it for a few weeks at least before returning it.

The P-38 makes a dandy souvenir, and yes, that one is a 1941 Walther specimen. It'll have the codes and numbers and "waffenamt" stamps like any other Third Reich firearm. They were a decent enough military pistol in their day, and they made the P-08 it replaced look like the Great War fossil it had become. The one real achilles' heel they have is the safety- it is not unheard of for the safety to break when the hammer drops on it, and the design will allow the primer to be hit. When I was a wide-eyed, gun-nut kid, I was advised to decock P-38s manually.

All the ones I have fired have had only marginal accuracy, and maybe part of that is due to the grips being oddly ill-shaped for my hand. The grips' material is pretty decent, and not some cheap emergency wartime plastic formulation; they are not particularly prone to chipping or breakage compared to "bakelite" grips on, say, a Pistole Modell 27 (CZ27).

In my experience, the P-38 handles about any 9mm ball without too much fuss, and as far as mismatched magazines go, they don't seem to be fussy about magazine variations (unlike the P-08). Magazine disassembly is as you indicate.

I would use Slip 2000 because it is (IMO) a better lube than Ballistol, despite the cachet Ballistol has with some connoiseurs of bring-backs.

About that holster: a holster stamped P-08 is for a P-08 (or as people still tend to call them, "Lugers"). While the P-38 will fit in a P-08 holster, the P-38 was issued with holsters specifically designed for it, and they are easily visually distinguished from one another. My favorite uncle was frequently involved with the movement of German POWs to the rear, and he had some stories about the piles of weapons that resulted when larger German contingents arranged for surrender and tossed their small arms on the ground. The pistols sometimes came out of the holsters and were piled separately, and then the world's greatest souvenir collectors (American GIs) might stick the wrong pistol in the wrong holster. Different military formations and different situations caused surrendered or captured weapons to be treated in a variety of ways.

When things were hot, some of those ways involved making sure the long guns never worked again, but as a general rule pistols fared a bit better.

gato naranja

03-29-2021, 10:07 AM

Duplicate, deleted.

03-29-2021, 04:12 PM

Got it apart this afternoon. Generally I tried to be respectful to such an older firearm, using only gentle swabbing with Slip 2000 EWL as a cleaner and nothing else. I did not want to remove any "beauty marks". Literally every part seems to have a stamp of some kind; maybe these were inspector numbers but Herr 359 was very busy; Herr 459 less so. There are three S/N parts that match; the frame, barrel and slide. The locking block appears original to the gun; it is stamped with the last three of the S/N (?).

The clockwork is pretty interesting. I like how the heel mag release spring tension is provided by the main hammer spring, just at the other end. Clever.

69508

Under light, and after cleaning, the grips appear to be brownish in color and exhibit a wood-like appearance with random graining. If these are not wood, but some kind of resin, it's made to "look" like wood. I have no idea, really. They feel pretty plastic-y.

I spent a good amount of time on the magazine. It's amazing to me how similar it is to a Glock; albeit the follower is stamped steel, not polymer. But the spring winding is almost identical, and the basepad floorplate retainer and lug is very similar. Actually now I think about it, it is very close to a HK mag design with a simple cam that holds the floor plate on which holds the spring tension.

69509

The mag has a different S/N to the gun, but each part is stamped similarly.

Getting the slide off and back on required some jiggery-pokery of the controls. I have no manual of arms for this gun at the moment, so I looked at the parts, and gently coaxed it off and then back on, doing what made sense, slowly and carefully. A lot of the parts I looked at seem to have very minimal wear, like they weren't used a lot. I stopped at a simple field strip. I did not want to start disassemble it into components, as I don't have the skills or the tools, and it's not clear to me the pistol needs it.

The locking block mechanism in the barrel / slide is really neat. I'm reading online it's virtually the same as a Beretta 92, but I am no expert, for sure. Same for the dual recoil springs; I've never so much as seen a gun with two recoil springs.

I elected to try and feed some Tipton snap caps in the 8 round (?) magazine. They chambered fine. I exercised the safety / decocker and the controls are smooth and operate firmly. The snap caps chambered with no issues, and ejected out of the slide with enthusiasm when racked by hand. I've revised my estimate of the DA press, it must be 25 lbs :) Well that, or it feels like it hah. I don't have a pull gauge that will measure it. But dang it is heavy.

Overall it seems to be a nice original Walther P38. There is some pitting and foxing on the slide, which detracts somewhat to the appearance.

I am just so impressed at how a gun designed in 1938 appears so...I don't know, maybe "modern" is the word? And of course, as a firearm with a personal history, it has great meaning to the owner. I am very glad to have had the opportunity to examine it.

69510

wlktheduk

03-29-2021, 04:17 PM

Adding to Gato Naranja's post:

Walther P38's eject to the LEFT, which is different.

P-38's can be quirky about unloading. Normally, to unload an automatic pistol, remove the magazine, then pull the slide to the rear, to extract and eject a cartridge from the chamber. HOWEVER...
The Walther P38 ejector is held up into position to contact an extracted cartridge or brass by the magazine.
When the magazine is removed, the ejector can pivot downwards into the magazine well.

This can result in a problem during unloading. Sometimes the cartridge stays on the extractor. :confused:

Quoting from Major George C. Nonte's book, "The Walther P-38 Pistol" (Desert Publications, 1975, long out of print), page 33.

"NOTE: the ejector is held in the upright position by the inserted magazine-when the magazine is not present, especially in a well worn specimen, the round will merely be held by the extractor and be rechambered when the slide goes forward"

So, visual inspection to ensure that the cartridge comes out of the pistol is very important with a P38. IF the cartridge is held onto the breech face by the extractor during unloading, with my 1980's vintage Interarms commercial model Walther P38, holding the slide to the rear and shaking the pistol causes the cartridge to slip off of the extractor hook, and fall out through the magazine well. (this doesn't happen too often to me, but sample of one and all that)

Wolff, www.gunsprings.com had recoil springs, magazine springs, and others (at least earlier this year)
Numrich Gun Parts Corporation, www.GunPartsCorp.com had most of the parts for repairs (again, earlier this year)

Caballoflaco

03-29-2021, 04:37 PM

Sweet, glad to see you didn’t go paying somebody to do that. Hopefully the owner will let you shoot it some before you give it back.

Here’s a quick video that will give you an idea of what all the guts look like.

https://youtu.be/8NYCXvs_aPc

gato naranja

03-29-2021, 06:35 PM

Under light, and after cleaning, the grips appear to be brownish in color and exhibit a wood-like appearance with random graining. If these are not wood, but some kind of resin, it's made to "look" like wood. I have no idea, really. They feel pretty plastic-y.

Technically, I mis-spoke earlier, as the grips are a variant of molded bakelite, but quite good stuff compared to the sorry junk encountered in a lot of wartime bakelite items. I apologize for that. IIRC, some of the late-war Spreewerk guns grips in particular are a little less impressive, but by the time 1945 rolled around, raw materials were getting tight.

(That being said, I once had a custody of a 1944 Mauser Werke (byf) P-38 that was in excellent condition with a nice, crisp bore, and it was a joy to behold except for an odd plum cast to the bluing on the frame. It could also just about hit an elephant at 50 feet in the hands of a good shot... okay maybe elephant is an exaggeration. A bit.)

Field stripping a P-38 is no big deal, but detail stripping can be interesting. There are a fair number of parts in one of these things, and the Austrian Army must have nearly swooned with joy when the Glock showed up.

Gratuitous plug alert: I really can't say enough good things about Roy Dunlap's book "Ordnance Went Up Front" for an interesting and enjoyable read about many WWII small arms, the P-38 included. If a person is interested in the subject at all, it is well worth reading.

03-29-2021, 08:49 PM

I watched Ian’s video on P38 development, very interesting.

https://youtu.be/JXAMma6mUq8

Vandal320

03-30-2021, 01:53 AM

According to my Walther book by Dieter H. Marschall you have a P.38 Code AC41 2nd Variation 4/1941/-11/1941 Serial #4834b-4530i (about 70,000 pistols)

03-30-2021, 06:23 AM

For future reference, adding a link to a pdf with an owner's manual for the P1/P38:

http://www.p-38.info/pdf/P38Manual_vRQS.pdf

I did have a follow up question. On the barrel, there is a prominent stamp with "8,83".

Being as how these are "9mm" pistols, and putting a comma is a German way of indicating a decimal point, does this somehow relate to either the actual barrel diameter or the design diameter? I am just curious why this is stamped into the barrel like this.

TiroFijo

03-30-2021, 10:27 AM

Vandal320

03-30-2021, 10:36 AM

From Dieter's book.

69539

TiroFijo

03-30-2021, 02:09 PM

Terminology is confusing sometimes...

For the 9 mm Luger nominal diameters are

Bullet diameter 9.03 mm (0.3555 in)
Groove diameter (bottom of the lands) 9.02 mm (0.355 in)
Bore diameter (top of the lands) 8.81 mm (0.347 in)

03-30-2021, 04:25 PM

I wanted to ask a few questions about the holster, let me get these posted:

69552

69553

Included in a small leather pouch in the interior is this curious little tool:

69554

03-30-2021, 04:36 PM

Couple questions re: the holster.

What would you suggest to treat the leather for long term care?

I assume the little tool is for a P.08 pistol. What is it used for?

Flamingo

03-30-2021, 04:48 PM

I assume the little tool is for a P.08 pistol. What is it used for?

Pretty sure it is a P08 mag loader.

03-30-2021, 05:00 PM

I’m going to get a magnifying glass and start listing the proof marks. The most common one I see is Waffen Amt (my German is rusty but I believe the translates to “Weapons Office”) (paging P30) 359. This appears to be German WW-II Heerswaffenamt (Army Weapons Office) inspector's mark from Walther, Zella-Mehlis, Germany. Zella-Mehlis is about 340 km from where I was born.

03-30-2021, 06:29 PM

I took a few pictures of the proof marks...most all of which are WA 359 with the stylized Eagle above.

There's an interesting "Circle B" with a "57", then what looks like an incompletely stamped "WA 359" on the side of the barrel near the front, right:

69561

This is typical of the WA 359 marks, on the slide, right hand side:

69563

And the mysterious "acht comma drei und achtsich" :)

69565

gato naranja

03-30-2021, 06:47 PM

I wanted to ask a few questions about the holster, let me get these posted:
Included in a small leather pouch in the interior is this curious little tool:

That's a typical P-08 hardshell holster. Some of the older German holsters will have makers' names stamped on the back (such as "Karl Akva, AG" or some such thing), but as time went on German leather gear got more "mysterious" by having either the maker's code or an "RB" ID number... or no maker's identification at all.

That little tool is a combination magazine loader (put the P-08 magazine follower button in the hole with the little 90-degree "wing" outward and below, and press the follower down with your thumb via the "wing") and "takedown tool" (the screwdriver fits the grip screws on a P-08). Almost all P-08 holsters I saw seemed to still have them, and some of them must have done some traveling to end up where they did, because I would occasionally run across ones that had marks consistent with WWI manufacture.

My favorite uncle had a small batch of souvenirs he brought back, and when he'd trot them out at my request, the leather gear had a unique smell that I still recall after all these years (it was not the "Ballistol" scent). I would not apply anything to try and preserve the leather, although a little neutral wax leather polish generally won't hurt things. The best thing a person can do is keep a holster in a stable environment that is neither too hot nor too cold, and not where the leather will dry out too much.

(And if you value the pistol, don't keep it in the holster.)

gato naranja

03-30-2021, 06:54 PM

And the mysterious "acht comma drei und achtsich" :)

69565

IIRC, the three digit numbers on major components were generally the last three digits of the firearm's serial number.

03-30-2021, 06:54 PM

That's a typical P-08 hardshell holster. Some of the older German holsters will have makers' names stamped on the back (such as "Karl Akva, AG" or some such thing), but as time went on German leather gear got more "mysterious" by having either the maker's code or an "RB" ID number... or no maker's identification at all.

That little tool is a combination magazine loader (put the P-08 magazine follower button in the hole with the little 90-degree "wing" outward and below, and press the follower down with your thumb via the "wing") and "takedown tool" (the screwdriver fits the grip screws on a P-08). Almost all P-08 holsters I saw seemed to still have them, and some of them must have done some traveling to end up where they did, because I would occasionally run across ones that had marks consistent with WWI manufacture.

My favorite uncle had a small batch of souvenirs he brought back, and when he'd trot them out at my request, the leather gear had a unique smell that I still recall after all these years (it was not the "Ballistol" scent). I would not apply anything to try and preserve the leather, although a little neutral wax leather polish generally won't hurt things. The best thing a person can do is keep a holster in a stable environment that is neither too hot nor too cold, and not where the leather will dry out too much.

(And if you value the pistol, don't keep it in the holster.)

Thanks a bunch.

I can vouch for “the smell”. I thought it WAS Ballistol but it’s not quite, but very ah pungent. I have it in a zip loc so as not to be noticed by Mrs. RJ’s rather sensitive olfactory sense. I’ll leave it be.

03-30-2021, 06:58 PM

IIRC, the three digit numbers on major components were generally the last three digits of the firearm's serial number.

I can confirm the locking block is marked this way. Makes sense.

P30

03-31-2021, 03:46 AM

The most common one I see is Waffen Amt (my German is rusty but I believe the translates to “Weapons Office”) (paging P30) 359. This appears to be German WW-II Heerswaffenamt (Army Weapons Office) inspector's mark from Walther, Zella-Mehlis, Germany.
The term "Waffenamt" is new to me. I looked it up:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffenamt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffenamt):

Waffenamt (WaA) was the German Army Weapons Agency.

tague.at/pistolen/index.htm?/pistolen/pages/p38.htm (http://www.tague.at/pistolen/index.htm?/pistolen/pages/p38.htm):
There "WaA 359" is called "Abnahmestempel" (approval stamp?).

"Waffenamt = Weapons Office" would be the 1:1 translation. So I agree to your translation. But, OK, wikipedia translates it as "Weapons Agency".

"Abnahme" is a German business term in this chain:
"Angebot -> Auftrag/Bestellung -> Lieferung -> Abnahme -> Rechnung"
I suppose it translates to:
offer(?) -> purchase order -> delivery -> approval(?) -> invoice

Today we have "Beschussämter" (proof houses). They fire the weapon - only once I think - and put a tiny stamp on it (proof mark). This confirms at least that the weapon does not explode into your face when you pull the trigger. As far as I know, they also (should) measure head space.

You asked about caring the leather holster. I have a leather suit for motorcycle riding. It's produced by the company "Schwabenleder" (Swabian leather), probably the best here in Germany for motorcycle leather suits. About 20 years ago I asked them which leather care they recommend. I remember, the answer was: "Combi-Pflegeschaum der Marke Solitaire". It's this stuff:
google.de/search?q=solitaire+pflegeschaum (https://www.google.de/search?q=solitaire+pflegeschaum)
solitaire-mainz.de/index.php?id=247&L=1 (https://www.solitaire-mainz.de/index.php?id=247&L=1)

I bought it and it worked fine (don't have it anymore, should buy a new bottle). So this is the best German product I can tell for caring/maintaining the outside of the leather holster.

Zella-Mehlis is about 340 km from where I was born.
Cool. I came into this world about 260 km from Zella-Mehlis.

P30

03-31-2021, 04:51 AM

As far as I remember the point with the "Solitaire Pflegeschaum" was: It does not clog the fine pores of the leather, the leather can still "breathe". Grease would clog the fine pores.

gato naranja

03-31-2021, 06:33 AM

I have it in a zip loc so as not to be noticed by Mrs. RJ’s rather sensitive olfactory sense. I’ll leave it be.

I can understand Mrs. RJ's objection! Gata naranja feels similarly. Just don't leave it in the ziploc bag too long, as you don't want any moisture inside condensing and mildewing it. This old leather gear is kind of like Goldilocks- you want to store it in a place that's not too hot or too cold, not too dry or too damp, and one that is dust-free; getting the right environment and then maintaining it does wonders. Think of a climate-controlled museum display as the yardstick to measure by.

A lot of bringback pistols have been seriously degraded because the holsters they were put away in promoted rusting/corrosion, yet others kind of shrug it off... luck of the draw, I guess. You hate to see it when it happens, and storing the two separately is cheap insurance.

One of the more common WWII bringbacks is the dress fire police (Feuerschutzpolizei) dagger, which looks like a nickle-plated Kar. 98K bayonet without a mounting slot/catch. These were attached to the belt via a leather frog, and a lot of these daggers are still very nice except for areas of the handle that had lain against the frog and now display rust pinholes in the plating.

olstyn

03-31-2021, 07:03 AM

Today we have "Beschussämter" (proof houses). They fire the weapon - only once I think - and put a tiny stamp on it (proof mark). This confirms at least that the weapon does not explode into your face when you pull the trigger. As far as I know, they also (should) measure head space.

My understanding is that the single round fired at the proof house is significantly over spec max pressure for whatever caliber the firearm is, so it's really a test of what happens in an extreme scenario - I.E. if it doesn't blow up with that, it should never ever blow up with normal ammo that the end user would put through it.

03-31-2021, 01:14 PM

My understanding is that the single round fired at the proof house is significantly over spec max pressure for whatever caliber the firearm is, so it's really a test of what happens in an extreme scenario - I.E. if it doesn't blow up with that, it should never ever blow up with normal ammo that the end user would put through it.

That seems to line up with further research today.

Re: the three proof marks, I’m understanding the left hand WA359 is applied to the slide in white, the right hand stamp is for “Pistole, komplete” und ze Center vun ist für die proofmark ven Test-Schüssen gefinished ist. :cool: *

* Hey most of my German came from watching Hogan’s Heros on AFN. :)

Jim Watson

03-31-2021, 01:44 PM

Gratuitous plug alert: I really can't say enough good things about Roy Dunlap's book "Ordnance Went Up Front" for an interesting and enjoyable read about many WWII small arms, the P-38 included. If a person is interested in the subject at all, it is well worth reading.

An interesting book for sure. Ol' Roy was certainly opinionated. He was in Ordnance early enough to see the teething troubles of the Garand and was then of the opinion that the infantry would have been better off with a militarized Model 70.

From contact in North Africa, he said everybody liked the Beretta SMGs, the Italians, the Germans, the British, the Americans, and the Arabs. He thought the Beretta .380 was a suitable sidearm, the hard kicking .45 unnecessary.

In the PTO he thought the rate reducer on a BAR 1918 A2 was the source of most of its troubles, clogging up with water and jungle duff. He said you would be better off to find an earlier gun with simple semi-full selector.

gato naranja

03-31-2021, 02:24 PM

An interesting book for sure. Ol' Roy was certainly opinionated.

My favorite uncle had passed away before I picked up a copy of "Ordnance Went Up Front," but a good deal of what Roy wrote fit reasonably well with what he had said to me. He did, however, think that the 1911 beat the rest of the pack as a pistol that was something more than a badge of authority.

(That did not stop him from bringing back a couple specimens of the competition.)

I used to be pretty enamored of the P-08 and the P-38 myself - and had some of each stay with me off and on - but I think Roy was probably right in warming up to to the VIS 35 Radom and the Hi-Power from a "working gun" standpoint.

P30

03-31-2021, 03:17 PM

My favorite uncle had passed away before I picked up a copy of "Ordnance Went Up Front," but a good deal of what Roy wrote fit reasonably well with what he had said to me.
There is a big pond between our countries but our experiences are quite similar: One of my favorite uncles was my uncle Walter. He was a paratrooper in the Bundeswehr in the 70s. The first rifle I shot was an air rifle he gave me. I still remember: I found it funny as a little boy when his brother told me, the pistol of the Bundeswehr is a "Walther". I was like: "Are you kiddin' me?" :D

03-31-2021, 05:35 PM

gato naranja

03-31-2021, 07:17 PM

Ok, on to the shooting. Assuming the owner is ok with this, what ammo do I run? I currently have the following:

115 gr Federal American Eagle FMJ (AE9DP)
124 gr Federal American Eagle FMJ (AE9AP)
124 gr Blazer Brass FMJ (5201)

Which one of these would be best? Or do I get something else (not excited about that, due to current ammo conditions being what they are)?

How about a course of fire? I plan to notify the range I'm shooting an 80 year old pistol, just in case anything exciting happens. I am going to load and chamber one, and shoot it SA. If nothing goes wrong, I'll load two, and verify the safety/decocker, then shoot some more.

One last question: Does anyone know know where the sights hold on these pistols? I'm going to line up the top of the front post with the center of the notch and see where things end up, and go from there, but I am curious if anyone knows.

Well, the later standard wartime German 9mm load was a 90-odd grain, steel jacketed bullet which I never worried about emulating, though pre- and early-war military issue 9mm was (IIRC) 124 or 125 grain at about the same velocity of the AE you list. I just used the cheapest available domestic 115 grain FMJ when I was fooling with them. P-38s are not too fussy as far as tolerating different ammo.

I disliked the sights almost as much as the grips, but I always placed the top of the front blade even with the top of the rear, centered everything as much as possible and hoped for the best.

Jim Watson

03-31-2021, 08:18 PM

Original 9mm P was a 124, soon replaced by a 115. Not particularly hot. I wouldn't consider anything like the iron core ersatz bullet.

I would test the decocker once at most. It locks the firing pin and drops the hammer on it and the lug on the firing pin has been known to break. Best to ease the hammer down as you rotate the lever for regular use.
The earlier HP retracted the firing pin so the hammer fell on the safety rotor.

NuJudge

03-31-2021, 08:58 PM

One weakness of the P38 was that the slide can develop cracks in the area of the locking block recess.

My first pistol was a P38. For many years, I shot that pistol almost exclusively. I fed it huge amounts of WWII surplus, plus some handholds. I never changed the recoil springs. About 1990, I was oiling it up after a range trip, and I noticed a crack running up the left side of the slide. I knew the importer, and they told me I should have been replacing the recoil springs periodically. I replaced both the springs, and the slide.

If you examine the P38, next to a Beretta 92, the mechanical similarities are striking.

P30

04-01-2021, 03:30 PM

One weakness of the P38 was that the slide can develop cracks in the area of the locking block recess.
I know very little about the P38, never fired one. But I found the following article confirming this weakness:

all4shooters.com/de/shooting/historische-waffen/walther-p-38-und-p1-in-der-praxis-pistolenausbildung-bei-der-bundeswehr-schiessen-handhaben-und-kaufberatung (https://www.all4shooters.com/de/shooting/historische-waffen/walther-p-38-und-p1-in-der-praxis-pistolenausbildung-bei-der-bundeswehr-schiessen-handhaben-und-kaufberatung/):

Und es ist nicht zu leugnen, sowohl die Kriegs-P.38 als auch die Bundeswehr-P1 haben ihre Schwachstellen – hier eine davon: Nach 3.000 bis 5.000 Schuss riss oft das Verschlussgehäuse auf der Höhe der Verriegelungs-Aussparung.

Deepl translation (https://www.deepl.com/translator#de/en/Und%20es%20ist%20nicht%20zu%20leugnen%2C%20sowohl% 20die%20Kriegs-P.38%20als%20auch%20die%20Bundeswehr-P1%20haben%20ihre%20Schwachstellen%20%E2%80%93%20h ier%20eine%20davon%3A%20Nach%203.000%20bis%205.000 %20Schuss%20riss%20oft%20das%20Verschlussgeh%C3%A4 use%20auf%20der%20H%C3%B6he%20der%20Verriegelungs-Aussparung.):

And there's no denying it, both the wartime P.38 and the Bundeswehr P1 have their weak points - here's one of them: After 3,000 to 5,000 rounds, the [slide] often cracked at the level of the locking recess.
(I only replaced the wrong translation "bolt housing" by "slide").

JonInWA

04-01-2021, 04:05 PM

Walther eventually addressed the slide durability issues with a thickened slide version, and later provided a steel hexogonal locking block reinforcing bolt through the receiver. Longevity and durability of the design peaked with the P5, which was one of the 3 guns to successfully get through the German 1970s police pistol trials-the other 2 were the HK P7 and the SIG-Sauer P225. Two German states and the Dutch national police equipped themselves with the P5 as their duty issue weapon.

Best, Jon

Screwball

04-01-2021, 04:41 PM

Walther eventually addressed the slide durability issues with a thickened slide version, and later provided a steel hexogonal locking block reinforcing bolt through the receiver.

If someone was looking for one of the thicker slide P1s, being the hex-bolt is sort of easy to spot, look for serrations that go on both sides of the safety lever (mainly, in front of it). The original slides only had the serrations behind the safety.

I had a wartime P38... it was ok. The decocking systems do not lend themselves to longevity, and usually are broken. I really wouldn’t trust one to decock on a live round, but rather it actually work. I sold mine, and put the money towards my 92 Brigadier Inox.

Considered getting a P1 just to have one, but found a Manurhin PP that I’m planning on cleaning up instead.

04-01-2021, 04:53 PM

Thanks guys.

By locking block recess, do you mean on the barrel where the locking block slips in, held with that little bent spring clip? I’m trying to picture where this might be, so I can have a look with a strong light.

Yeah, on the decocker, it works, but I hold the hammer so it lands gently.

NuJudge

04-01-2021, 06:11 PM

https://www.waltherforums.com/threads/sticky-cracked-p-1-slide.37941/
http://p38forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29309

P30

04-01-2021, 07:00 PM

And also there you can see some P38 slides with cracks:
google.de/search?q=walther+p38+crack+in+slide&tbm=isch (https://www.google.de/search?q=walther+p38+crack+in+slide&tbm=isch)

Example:
https://pullmanarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Picture-073-e1332849552899.jpg

04-01-2021, 07:24 PM

Thanks again for all the help.

I've field stripped it again tonight. Both recoil lugs on the slide are whole and appear little used. The slide is without visible cracks in the area of the locking block area, and all the metal appears in good condition. The interior of the slide seems to have little wear.

Both mag springs compress smoothly all the way down to max compression without binding or early stoppage. Just a smooth press with a chop stick has them all the way to min length.

I checked the chamber and made sure it was very clean. I am thinking of going with the AE 124 ammo. It shoots slightly slower than the 115 AE (1,150 fps vs. 1,180 fps), but seems closer match to one of the "Wartime" loads I saw referenced in a collector thread. I did a plonk test in the chamber with 10 rounds, all the rounds seated perfectly and tipped out easily under gravity. I was able to load 8 rounds in the magazine without needing a Maglula or the Jaws of Life, which was a treat.

69675

gato naranja

04-02-2021, 07:53 AM

I was able to load 8 rounds in the magazine without needing a Maglula or the Jaws of Life, which was a treat.

That is one of the benefits of old-school, single stack magazines, innit? I was late in getting around to actually firing full auto weapons from Der Krieg, but when the time arrived I found out PDQ that some of the submachinegun magazines didn't load quite as easily. I also got to compare the MP40 and M1A1 Thompson side by side, and began to understand why my uncles loved the "Tommy Gun."

If the P-38 owner ever wants to get a correct holster for his 1941-date P-38, they are available:

https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H077382.html

JonInWA

04-02-2021, 12:06 PM

There are also more modern ones surplussed from the Bundswehr, both leather in the WWII style, and modern ones (well, more modern...) in codura fabric in flecktarn camouflage pattern.

Best, Jon

04-02-2021, 12:36 PM

That is one of the benefits of old-school, single stack magazines, innit? I was late in getting around to actually firing full auto weapons from Der Krieg, but when the time arrived I found out PDQ that some of the submachinegun magazines didn't load quite as easily. I also got to compare the MP40 and M1A1 Thompson side by side, and began to understand why my uncles loved the "Tommy Gun."

If the P-38 owner ever wants to get a correct holster for his 1941-date P-38, they are available:

https://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/photos/H077382.html

I will relate a personal anecdote. I was in high school in the 70s, and was completely fascinated with European WWII history, in particular, since I grew up in Germany (Army brat). I saved up from my part time job at Hechinger's home center and convinced my parents to let me buy a replica MP-40 (with working bolt!) as well as a P38. Although both were non-functioning, they were very close to the correct size and weight. The MP40 was not dissimilar to this:

https://www.worldwarsupply.com/product/german-mp40-gun-replica/

As I recall, I bought it at an arms dealer in Alexandria Virginia. It may or may not have been Interarms, which at the time was pretty busy with real firearms sales.

Indicating how much times have changed, I brought the fake MP40 with me to college when I went to UVa the fall of '77. Fun times. :)

04-02-2021, 05:19 PM

I was doing some more research and decided to take out the recoil springs to examine them, the channels and the retaining pins. All was in good shape. I just cleaned everything up with some Slip 2000 EWL and wiped it down. I used a pointed chopstick to compress the spring sufficiently to clear the retaining pin of the lug, then easily lifted the pin out. A bit fiddly but I took my time and did not let the springs snap into place by themselves.

69702

The springs measure around 112 mm. I’ve seen some other figures of 115-117 for springs in use, and one figure of 126 mm when new. I’m kind of on the fence as to whether to get a spring kit or go with them as is. But honestly for $20 it looks pretty cheap to do so if there are issues.

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/action-parts/spring-kits/walther-p-38-service-pak-prod26234.aspx

(I find it amusing Brownell’s has a spring kit for a pistol made in 1941. Very cool. :) )

I’m getting better at field strip. I found an armorers grip around the slide allows a very small amount of movement, sufficient to rotate the take down lever so the slide/barrel assembly comes right off. This is much easier than locking the slide back. Same on the install, just in reverse.

willie

04-03-2021, 06:41 AM

This is the exact model and year of the P-38 that I shot while growing up. I bought ammo by the case from Vic's For Guns in Galveston, Texas. Vic shipped it to Summit, Mississippi by railway freight. The ammo was European WW2 surplus. When I would shoot rabbits and have them run 50 yards and die, I begin to wonder about the round's effectiveness. Dad turned me loose with it at age 14, and it was my constant companion when in the woods and along rivers and streams.

olstyn

04-03-2021, 08:53 AM

(I find it amusing Brownell’s has a spring kit for a pistol made in 1941. Very cool. :) )

I think the recoil springs at least are the same in the P5, so it went forward a bit farther than that, but yeah, still pretty neat that parts are easily available.

NuJudge

04-05-2021, 08:18 PM

I will relate a personal anecdote. I was in high school in the 70s, and was completely fascinated with European WWII history, in particular, since I grew up in Germany (Army brat). I saved up from my part time job at Hechinger's home center and convinced my parents to let me buy a replica MP-40 (with working bolt!) as well as a P38. Although both were non-functioning, they were very close to the correct size and weight. The MP40 was not dissimilar to this:

https://www.worldwarsupply.com/product/german-mp40-gun-replica/

As I recall, I bought it at an arms dealer in Alexandria Virginia. It may or may not have been Interarms, which at the time was pretty busy with real firearms sales.

Indicating how much times have changed, I brought the fake MP40 with me to college when I went to UVa the fall of '77. Fun times. :)

Probably one of Tom Nelson's businesses, probably Unique Imports. He had a lot of the non-guns. I never saw any of those at Interarms.

04-05-2021, 08:49 PM

Probably one of Tom Nelson's businesses, probably Unique Imports. He had a lot of the non-guns. I never saw any of those at Interarms.

Was that at 800 Slater’s Lane? Not sure how familiar you are with Alexandria, but I grew up in NoVa, and that address pops up on a Google search. That might be where I bought it.

From the ad I found below, the (fake) MP40 was $1xx, which was a lot of money for a high school kid.

69834

NuJudge

04-06-2021, 09:43 AM

The problem is I've been away from there for 45 years. That address sounds familiar, but it has been too long.

04-20-2021, 05:40 AM

I put a total of 10 rounds through the Walther yesterday.

70401

I used Blazer Brass 124, the closest I had to the German Wermacht Ammunition, based on sources I've been able to locate (*). I shot the 10 rounds in two groups of five.

In the first group, I loaded and shot 1 round, just to make sure nothing weird happened. Then I loaded 2 rounds, twice. On the second round of both 2 round mags, the slide failed to lock back on an empty mag. On the second group, I loaded 5 rounds. The first three rounds fed fine, then the last two rounds malfunctioned with a failure to feed stoppage. The bullet stopped in the feedway. I cleared the stoppage and cycled the action, then chambered and shot normally.

All shots were taken SA. I used a top of sight hold and put the blade in the notch. The first target grouped about 4" at 7 yards. This second group was better, except for the last round which I yanked right, the one at 3 o'clock. (remember I am a lefty).

70403
70404

Pondering the malfunctions (2xFTLB and 2xFTF), perhaps they might be due to the magazine spring? Maybe the spring is not pushing up on the follower with enough enthusiasm. As this is not a "shooter" grade firearm, I wouldn't do anything about it, unless the owner wanted to re-spring the magazine.

It certainly shoots well, as well as I can shoot a modern firearm, for sure. I could move my hold to the bottom of X and probably print groups in 1" squares at 7 yards SA, very good for me. Recoil was mild, as you might expect with a steel framed duty pistol using mild 9mm ammo. All of the functions checked good; safety, decocker, etc. It all works.

I'll be returning the gun to its owner. It was nice to put an old warhorse through it's paces; not bad for a gun that's 80 years old.

(*) Comparison of German Army small arms ammunition muzzle velocity and bullet weight with Blazer Brass 124, below. German Army 8g bullet at 1,083 fps compares well with the Blazer 1,090 fps, and the bullet weight of 8 grams or 123 grains equates to 124 gr ammunition. I'll defer to P30 since my German is a little rusty, but I put what I believe are the correct translation of the terms below:

German Army Ammunition:
“Anfangsgeschwindigkeit” (muzzle velocity?) 330 m/s (converts to 1,083 fps)
“Geschossgewicht” (bullet weight?) 8g (converts to 123 grains)
Source:
http://gigconceptsinc.com/German-9mmP-Perf.html

70405
70406

Blazer Brass Ammunition:
Blazer 124, MPN 5201, UPC 76683052018
Bullet Type: Full Metal Jacket
Muzzle Velocity 1090 fps
Muzzle Energy 327 ft lbs
Source:
https://www.targetsportsusa.com/cci-...01-p-4172.aspx