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View Full Version : Would a 1911 really have an advantage in "production" (or CO)?



rdtompki
03-25-2021, 06:19 PM
I suspect the answer is "no" versus the tricked out guns in those two divisions. If that's the case why maintain a separate, small division? I'm more interested in steel challenge and have aged out of any opportunity to become competitive so don't really have a dog in this fight. Given that the logic of the ancients really no longer applies why hasn't the power that be just moved on beyond SS?

olstyn
03-25-2021, 07:45 PM
Tradition. JMB's gun shall always have a division of its own. It is holy writ. :p

I think that a 9mm 1911 would be entirely reasonable in Production. .45 maybe less so because you'd lose out on major power factor scoring and be stuck with lower capacity.

CleverNickname
03-25-2021, 08:24 PM
.45 maybe less so because you'd lose out on major power factor scoring and be stuck with lower capacity.
Well if you're going to allow 1911's in Prod then also include the rule from SS that allows either major with 8rd mags or minor with 10rd mags.

YVK
03-25-2021, 09:40 PM
I suspect the answer is "no" versus the tricked out guns in those two divisions.


Sure it would have an advantage in Prod or CO. The example of recent rule changes, with people hanging extra weights on 47 oz 9 mm guns, is a good illustration that gamers will game the hell of every opportunity. Not having to pull DA trigger at all, not worrying about getting light strikes in SA because you're trying to lower your DA pull, larger range of ergonomic adjustments, easier to get trigger pull low. Personally I think 1911s cycle better than anything else. I'd run a 2011 even in Production to utilize tapered mag / wider magwell opening advantage and I wouldn't look back.

cheby
03-26-2021, 01:18 AM
Sure it would have an advantage in Prod or CO. The example of recent rule changes, with people hanging extra weights on 47 oz 9 mm guns, is a good illustration that gamers will game the hell of every opportunity. Not having to pull DA trigger at all, not worrying about getting light strikes in SA because you're trying to lower your DA pull, larger range of ergonomic adjustments, easier to get trigger pull low. Personally I think 1911s cycle better than anything else. I'd run a 2011 even in Production to utilize tapered mag / wider magwell opening advantage and I wouldn't look back.

Absolutely. There's an idea going around to combine all low cap divisions into 1 with 8 major or 10 minor options. If that happens, 1911/2011 would be the most popular choice especially on the top level without any sponsor dictated guns.

BN
03-26-2021, 08:11 AM
Absolutely. There's an idea going around to combine all low cap divisions into 1 with 8 major or 10 minor options.

That's how they ruined Revolver division. :(

rdtompki
03-26-2021, 09:01 AM
I get the 1911 advantage for nearly stock guns, but is running DA/SA in USPSA with a really great SA trigger at a disadvantage with just one DA trigger pull? USPSA tweaks rules (e.g., weight increase) to accommodate the latest hotness and with the allowance for weapon lights you can up the weight on a plastic gun. The ergos on production guns seem to have really increased over the last several years with in some cases interchangeable back straps and side panels. With all the moaning about how hard it is to keep a 9mm 1911 running you would think the P and CO incumbents would welcome unreliable cannon fodder into their ranks.

bofe954
03-26-2021, 09:42 AM
If they allowed 2011's I doubt you'd see many 1911's. Just like you don't see many 1911's in Lim 10.

You would also have to allow magwells.

olstyn
03-26-2021, 11:22 AM
You would also have to allow magwells.

Why? I think 1911 w/o magwell would create advantage on trigger niceness and disadvantage on reload speed vs typical Production guns, and it would at least somewhat even out.

Clusterfrack
03-26-2021, 11:25 AM
I always compare my Production scores to SS at local matches, to increase the M class competition. But itís hard to make a fair comparison because every single 1911 at my club doesnít work reliably. Did I win by shooting better or because my S2 didnít choke?

I would not welcome such a change because I want to compete against other Production shooters at major matches.

bofe954
03-26-2021, 11:58 AM
Why? I think 1911 w/o magwell would create advantage on trigger niceness and disadvantage on reload speed vs typical Production guns, and it would at least somewhat even out.

I don't think think it would be worth the trade. 2-3 reloads a stage vs 1 draw. SA trigger on decent CZ or tanfo isn't much worse than a 1911. There is only one draw per stage, wouldn't be worth what you made on a draw vs 3 slower reloads and risk bungling one.

If you let 2011's in (and that isn't really rhe OP's question) there would be no reason to run a 1911, you'd have your trigger and your tapered mag/bigger opening.

I am going to goof around with 9mm SS this year. I am pretty sure I will be able to beat myself with my shadow. I don't think I could with no magwell. I am speculating though, for now.

YVK
03-26-2021, 03:37 PM
I get the 1911 advantage for nearly stock guns, but is running DA/SA in USPSA with a really great SA trigger at a disadvantage with just one DA trigger pull?

Yes. You run some 5 sec classifier, 0.25 sec difference on DA vs SA first shot is 5%. Some people can't reach well to DA trigger, so there's an ergonomic advantage. Poly guns can be made heavy but can't be made to have a 1911 trigger.

This isn't really a guesswork. Those Production and CO guns, they are all available for Limited in .40SW with 140 mags. 5 guys maybe shoot them, either some sponsored peeps, their fanbois, or those who don't have coin for 2011. Everyone else...

Gio
04-08-2021, 10:23 AM
Why? I think 1911 w/o magwell would create advantage on trigger niceness and disadvantage on reload speed vs typical Production guns, and it would at least somewhat even out.

I think those things are not really an advantage. The magwell would slightly be, but with production guns now coming with flared magwells from the factory, combined with being double stack mags, there really isn't an advantage. 1911 triggers are great for slow fire bullseye shooting, but there really is no advantage to the kind of action pistol shooting done in USPSA.

At this point with the state of the game, I would rather see USPSA hit the reset button on divisions and do something like:

Open Major (same rules as current open)
Open/Optics Minor (same rules as current limited guns but with slide ride optics in minor only)
Limited Major (same rules as current limited)
Limited Minor (same rules as current limited but minor PF only)

LoCap - 10 round minor, 8 round major, any gun is legal

Revo - Could arguably nuke this one other than for revo nationals.
PCC

With the current division setup and stage design trends, I see hardly any low cap division shooters anymore. My local club had 3 total low cap shooters this past weekend out of 36. USPSA leadership has effectively killed off production, and I think it's due to the capacity more than anything else. There is also almost no difference between production and limited guns anymore, so they might as well just combine them into a high cap minor division.

Bergeron
04-08-2021, 12:09 PM
I think those things are not really an advantage. The magwell would slightly be, but with production guns now coming with flared magwells from the factory, combined with being double stack mags, there really isn't an advantage. 1911 triggers are great for slow fire bullseye shooting, but there really is no advantage to the kind of action pistol shooting done in USPSA.

At this point with the state of the game, I would rather see USPSA hit the reset button on divisions and do something like:

Open Major (same rules as current open)
Open/Optics Minor (same rules as current limited guns but with slide ride optics in minor only)
Limited Major (same rules as current limited)
Limited Minor (same rules as current limited but minor PF only)

LoCap - 10 round minor, 8 round major, any gun is legal

Revo - Could arguably nuke this one other than for revo nationals.
PCC

With the current division setup and stage design trends, I see hardly any low cap division shooters anymore. My local club had 3 total low cap shooters this past weekend out of 36. USPSA leadership has effectively killed off production, and I think it's due to the capacity more than anything else. There is also almost no difference between production and limited guns anymore, so they might as well just combine them into a high cap minor division.

While I get where you're coming from, in that Open-Lim/Major-Minor setting, you're gonna be looking at a 2011-only world. The only things keeping us from that are the no-single action requirements of CO & Prod. The magwells are stupid-huge, the magazines are very tapered, the trigger pulls less than mouse clicks, and it's easy to get weight and springs optimized.

I like shooting Single Stack, but if it went away, I'd just shoot other divisions. I don't see a way to bring SS into Prod or CO that doesn't cause a bad storm. I'm more opposed to the weight limits in Prod and CO, and the use of 140mm magazines in CO. At that point, shooting any other division requires substantially more work.

I'll still shoot no matter what the rules are, and I only shoot local stuff, so I don't actually have a dog in this fight.

Clusterfrack
04-08-2021, 01:31 PM
While I get where you're coming from, in that Open-Lim/Major-Minor setting, you're gonna be looking at a 2011-only world.

Yeah, that would be a dealbreaker for me. I have zero interest in custom 2011s.

Eyesquared
04-08-2021, 02:22 PM
I'm not 100% convinced that the 1911 or 2011 is really that much easier to shoot for action pistol especially outside of open. The sliding trigger doesn't seem to make any difference to me. The grip shape fits me well on a 2011 but so does the p320 Xframe or the tanfoglio grip. The mags on a 2011 are highly tapered but using a friend's gun I found them slightly more likely to bind or catch on the grip than a typical doublestack mag. My favorite things about the platform like the grip and weight distribution can now be tweaked with almost any gun.

Gio
04-08-2021, 03:16 PM
While I get where you're coming from, in that Open-Lim/Major-Minor setting, you're gonna be looking at a 2011-only world. The only things keeping us from that are the no-single action requirements of CO & Prod. The magwells are stupid-huge, the magazines are very tapered, the trigger pulls less than mouse clicks, and it's easy to get weight and springs optimized.


In my experience, it doesn't make any difference. Case in point, 3 of the top 5 shooters at 2020 limited nationals shot polymer framed guns.

I personally shoot a Glock 35 in limited on occasion with a brass magwell, frame weight, and minimal trigger work, and I don't find myself at all out gunned. I could shoot whatever I want, and I'd much rather shoot a Glock and not deal with finicky magazines, finicky .40 loadings with longer than factory OAL to function right, $120+ mags, cleaning mags every every stage, tuning mags to disable the slide release, etc.

I'd be good with the open/lim minor division being more restrictive, similar to how CO is now with no magwells or single action, but I think the main point would be to get production (basically limited as it is setup now except for magwells) to high capacity which would bring back a lot of interest in the division in my opinion.

As a long time production shooter, I'd welcome a combined production/single stack/L10 with 10 round minor/8 round major as an option for any gun in the division if they also created a high cap minor iron sight division.