Recommended serious use AR mags?

[GyroF-16]

For the best reliable, long-term use mags, here are the names that I think I know meet the standard:
Magpul
Lancer
Okay (?)

Any other polymer mags?
I know there are other Aluminum mag brands that are recommended... could someone fill in some names for me?

[Default.mp3]

It's my understanding that nothing comes close to the Magpul PMAG GEN M3 when it was tested by the military, in terms of long-term reliability and function. That being said, for civilian use, those differences were kinda a moot point.

For polymer mags, I know that the TangoDown ARC MK2 mags were popular for a spell, probably there with the Lancer L5AWM or Magpul GEN M2s in terms of function, if I had to guess. Still, with as cheap and plentiful as the Magpul mags can be, I don't see the point of picking up any other polymer magazine, especially the less popular ones like HexMag, Amend2, MFT, Daniel Defense, etc.

D&H is usually second fiddle to Okay when it comes to aluminum mags, but they seem to be a "good enough" option, as is with current production Brownell's. I'm uncertain about Duramags at this point, they seemed to have recently been picking up visibility, but I haven't seen anyone come out and say that they're no longer shit.

[Nephrology]

I am an AR-15 noob, but so far through the ~4k rounds through my rifles to date I have yet to have any kind of malfunction, so it's sort of hard for me to feel strongly about mags in that context. I bet other people with a lot more experience with the platform have better informed opinions than me.

I have mostly magpuls/lancers/Okay industries GI mags in both 30 and 20rd flavors. I am not sure I'd bother purchasing anything else. I have a small number from other OEMs (hexmags, MFT, Elander, and I think even a Thermold....) and probably would not get more unless I had a compelling reason to do so.

It's really hard to beat the Pmag.

[OlongJohnson]

I buy M3s here.

https://lanbosarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=15938&referrer=cnwr_4191340829622

It's a local business. Have ordered several times, always good service. Hard to beat the price, even with TX sales tax included. Given that M3s come with the clips to prevent the feed lips being stressed if the mags are kept loaded, I see no point in buying M2s. Plenty of stock at this time.

[Default.mp3]

It's a local business. Have ordered several times, always good service. Hard to beat the price, even with TX sales tax included. Given that M3s come with the clips to prevent the feed lips being stressed if the mags are kept loaded, I see no point in buying M2s. Plenty of stock at this time.The dust cover is not for feed lip stress reduction when loaded. It is to protect the feed lips from damage and against intrusion of environmental factors.


There is a common misconception that the dust/impact cover supplied with most PMAG products is in some way required to prevent feed lip creep or spread over time. This is not the case. When initially loaded, the PMAG GEN M3, and all PMAGs in the current lineup, exhibit a tiny normalization of feed lip geometry within a very small window of time measured in days, and then this geometry then remains stable over many years, heat cycles, cooling cycles, and outdoor UV and weather exposure. We routinely load magazines and place them into stable indoor, hot, cold, and outdoor exposure storage to monitor various batches of material. These magazines are occasionally function tested and reloaded with no issues.

As implied by the name, the dust and impact cover is indeed designed to keep debris out of magazines during storage, and to provide an extra measure of feed lip protection for magazines in storage, such as stuffed in an ammo can in a tactical vehicle used in off road operations, or for aerial delivery, kicking containers of loaded mags off of moving vehicles, and the like. This ensures that magazines that may normally be out of sight, not maintained, or subjected to delivery handling that is many, many times the normal testing and usage criteria will perform flawlessly after a quick flick to remove the cover.Source: https://www.bigtexoutdoors.com/differences-between-gen-2-gen-3-magpul-pmags/ (can also be found at P&S, and is a great read overall)

[theJanitor]

I've got lots of pmags of various generations, some that still work fine from the '08 timeframe. That being said, over the past couple years, I've moved to Surefeed mags. They feed good, seem really tough, slim, don't get hung up in elastic pouches, and work better in lowers with tight magwells. I do spend quite a bit on the magpul L plate upgrade, though.

eta: I bought 40 Surefeed E2's last week

[RancidSumo]

I buy M3s here.

https://lanbosarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=15938&referrer=cnwr_4191340829622

It's a local business. Have ordered several times, always good service. Hard to beat the price, even with TX sales tax included. Given that M3s come with the clips to prevent the feed lips being stressed if the mags are kept loaded, I see no point in buying M2s. Plenty of stock at this time.

Thanks - great price and also great prices on Magpul Glock mags. Watching Biden call for an AWB a few minutes ago changed my mind about whether or not I have enough mags . . .

[Clusterfrack]

I preferred Lancer AWM to PMags. But the latest rev of the G3 PMag is very good.

[19852+]

Magpul has an excellent reputation and in my experience they do work quite well. I bought some Lancers which also do well and I like them for match use since they are translucent for stages were specific loadouts are mandated. But for serious use I go back to Magpull.

[GyroF-16]

Excellent point, Neph.
As long as PMAGs are readily available, probably not much reason to add much variety.
I guess in the back of my mind, PMAGs are a little more fragile than aluminum GI mags, but there may be little basis for that in reality.


I am an AR-15 noob, but so far through the ~4k rounds through my rifles to date I have yet to have any kind of malfunction, so it's sort of hard for me to feel strongly about mags in that context. I bet other people with a lot more experience with the platform have better informed opinions than me.

I have mostly magpuls/lancers/Okay industries GI mags in both 30 and 20rd flavors. I am not sure I'd bother purchasing anything else. I have a small number from other OEMs (hexmags, MFT, Elander, and I think even a Thermold....) and probably would not get more unless I had a compelling reason to do so.

It's really hard to beat the Pmag.

[GyroF-16]

I preferred Lancer AWM to PMags. But the latest rev of the G3 PMag is very good.

May I ask why? More durable? Metal feed lips?

[Nephrology]

Excellent point, Neph.
As long as PMAGs are readily available, probably not much reason to add much variety.
I guess in the back of my mind, PMAGs are a little more fragile than aluminum GI mags, but there may be little basis for that in reality.

IIRC the Gen 3 PMAG was found to be much more durable than the standard aluminum USGI mag as per Default.mp3 's post, but neither is indestructible. Historically when buying a lot of magazines at once I've always tended to get USGI mags, as the $3 savings vs equivalent polymer mag adds up when you're buying in substantial quantity.

[vcdgrips]

Pmags and Brownells/D&H Aluminum with "magpul" style follower have worked well for me in classes and at the range. My default rec these days is PMag as they seem to be readily available and are never more than 20.00 per even in these times.
I beta tested a set of steel Fusils in an 08 EAG class. They worked really well for me too.

[Clusterfrack]

May I ask why? More durable? Metal feed lips?

More reliable feeding when dirty. Easier insertion as well. The new PMags seem to have solved the 2nd round jam issue, but I
still feel like they are ‘stickier’ on insertion.


Yup. I’ve been aware of the 2nd round issue with PMags for a long time. This is why I use Lancer AWMs. I’m glad Magpul has finally (quietly) addressed it with an update.

Here’s a pic I posted a while back.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180908/d5ef05fef2ae6c9f78a78e2cfcf83012.jpg

[WobblyPossum]

Excellent point, Neph.
As long as PMAGs are readily available, probably not much reason to add much variety.
I guess in the back of my mind, PMAGs are a little more fragile than aluminum GI mags, but there may be little basis for that in reality.

Gen M3 PMags have proven more reliable and durable than aluminum GI mags in testing. Check out some of the short videos from Magpul’s YouTube channel about testing from 8 years ago. They M3 PMags are also now the issued magazine of the USMC after testing was conducted.

[Clusterfrack]

I won’t use aluminum GI mags unless I’m desperate. They work fine until they don’t. So easy to bugger the feedlips, and not notice. These are basically disposable magazines.

[rob_s]

long-ass thread, probably outdated information, and eventually another junky thread got merged into it, but if you want to go down the rabbit hole of AR mags ten years ago...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?81074-Move-back-to-GI-magazines-a-journey

I still won't use anything but GI. But that opinion is probably irrelevant today.

[OlongJohnson]

Gen M3 PMags have proven more reliable and durable than aluminum GI mags in testing. Check out some of the short videos from Magpul’s YouTube channel about testing from 8 years ago. They M3 PMags are also now the issued magazine of the USMC after testing was conducted.


I still won't use anything but GI. But that opinion is probably irrelevant today.

So is "the issued magazine of the USMC" now a GI mag?

The link I posted earlier will ship M3 mags with a #23 in the little circle indicating rev #, so it addresses the second round issue.

[Suvorov]

I recall the Brownells aluminum mags being highly regarded as well. Due to my state of residence, I’ve been limited as to what I had pre 2000 and what was available during those windows I could acquire or build new magazines so I run a fairly eclectic assortment. I have had zero issues with my Pmag 2nd Gen or any aluminum mags I’ve upgraded with green it magpul followers (even my Adventure Line). Heck, I’ve even had good luck with Canadian Thermolds I bought back in 1994 (I just don’t leave them loaded).

The Lancers look sexy and I like their hybrid material design. If I was starting from scratch they would be tempting but I’d probably just go with P Mags or Brownells, whichever was cheaper.

The only mags I’ve had issues with when new were aluminum magazines modified to hold only 10 rounds or factory 10 round shorties. While I’ve had a few used GI mags (crime Bill era gun show specials) - they have been few and far between.

You thinking more Colorado restrictions or Federal?

[Default.mp3]

FWIW, a friend of mine said he saw issues with the Lancers not feeding due to rust on the steel feed lips, so that could be a potential concern for the L5AWMs (I believe the L7AWMs use stainless steel feed lips). I personally have both opaque Lancers and PMAGs M2 and M3, and prefer the Windowed M3s at this point; I've had the little tabs at the front/feed side of the Lancers break off, and while Lancer has told me they do not provide any real function and should have no impact on performance, I'm still a bit leery.

As an aside, some more info on translucent magazines. I have been told that the clear H&K rifle magazines are just polycarbonate, so quite tough under normal circumstances, but will degrade when exposed to solvents such as DEET. Same source told me that ETS uses ether sulfones, so are rather soft and have "grit problems" (which I assume to mean that grit will wear them down quickly), and Lancer uses polycarbonate with modifiers for their translucent mags that make them a softer than normal PC, but thus has better impact resistance, and also use a chemical resistant coating, which means that its resistance against solvents will eventually go away. Magpul tried to do a translucent magazine, too, but was unable to find a satisfactory mix for polycarb that met their expectations.

[GyroF-16]

So is "the issued magazine of the USMC" now a GI mag?

The link I posted earlier will ship M3 mags with a #23 in the little circle indicating rev #, so it addresses the second round issue.

That’s good to know... I’ve seen some that have other numbers - like “27”.
Anyone know of a good reference to decoding the markings, and what changed with each revision?

[GyroF-16]

I recall the Brownells aluminum mags being highly regarded as well. Due to my state of residence, I’ve been limited as to what I had pre 2000 and what was available during those windows I could acquire or build new magazines so I run a fairly eclectic assortment. I have had zero issues with my Pmag 2nd Gen or any aluminum mags I’ve upgraded with green it magpul followers (even my Adventure Line). Heck, I’ve even had good luck with Canadian Thermolds I bought back in 1994 (I just don’t leave them loaded).

The Lancers look sexy and I like their hybrid material design. If I was starting from scratch they would be tempting but I’d probably just go with P Mags or Brownells, whichever was cheaper.

The only mags I’ve had issues with when new were aluminum magazines modified to hold only 10 rounds or factory 10 round shorties. While I’ve had a few used GI mags (crime Bill era gun show specials) - they have been few and far between.

You thinking more Colorado restrictions or Federal?

Both.
Luckily I acquired plenty of PMAGs and a few others when I saw the state limits coming.
Just wondering if I chose wisely, since they may have to last me a while.

[Guerrero]

That’s good to know... I’ve seen some that have other numbers - like “27”.
Anyone know of a good reference to decoding the markings, and what changed with each revision?

This might help:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32866-PSA-not-all-PMAGS-are-created-equal

[GyroF-16]

This might help:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32866-PSA-not-all-PMAGS-are-created-equal

Good stuff - thanks!

[OlongJohnson]

Same source told me that ETS uses ether sulfones, so are rather soft and have "grit problems" (which I assume to mean that grit will wear them down quickly),

Could also mean the grit gets embedded in them and increases the wear on any part that moves past it, or makes the follower sticky in a way that's hard to address by cleaning.

[rob_s]

So is "the issued magazine of the USMC" now a GI mag?

The link I posted earlier will ship M3 mags with a #23 in the little circle indicating rev #, so it addresses the second round issue.

I don’t know and don’t care.
I have enough GI mags to last me through rahowa.

[M2CattleCo]

In order of preference:

1) Gen M3 (post 2016)
2) Gen M2
3) Legit tan follower GI
4) Legit green or Magpul follower GI

Those are the ONLY mags I will use and things have to get really weird for me to not be using the #1 mags. I consider every other mag to be unacceptable as I have seen too many problems with them over the years.

[HCM]

All AR mags are disposables / consumables.

We use a mix of Colt GI green follower mags and Gen2 PMags at work but are using Pmags going forward. We tested Lancers 5 or 6 years ago and found no real advantage over Pmags.

I’ve personally had great results with the Brownells GI mags.

I’m personally primarily going with Gen 3 Pmags going forward. The Gen 3 Coyote mags are the issued mag for both the USMC and USAF going forward.

One advantage to Gen3 Pmags, besides fixing the double feed issue is the over insertion stop. In a recent Green Ops carbine class I watched a guy on track for the fastest time in the El Prez drill over insert a Gen 2 and lock up his rifle such that it took 2 people to clear.

[rcbusmc24]

I live in a location where we swim in a sea of cheap AR magazines, due to the base and the number of shops selling new and slightly used mags. I regularly use all variants of the PMAG but mostly the Gen 3's and primarily the MCT mags, though many of the Black ones have been showing up around town recently. I also have a lifetime supply of GI mags of both the green follower (Colt and Okay Industries) and brown follower (Brownells)variety, all work fine. I also have about 100 of the brown metal mags with Blue followers that were designed for M855A1 before we decided to just go with M3 PMags. I like to use them for odd stuff, like 77 Gn match rounds or .300 Blkout as they work well with the heavier weights of those rounds and they are very different looking than the other mags. I have a bunch of the old Tango Down mags that were given to me by Pat Rogers during various classes and they have always worked but I have never had a need to purchase them over something else. I like the the Lancers for use with UTM rounds and the dozen or so of those that I have are only used for force on force training with those UTM rounds.

Currently if I felt the need to load up on more mags than I already have then I would likely just buy more USGI's from one of the surplus shops as here in town they average about 5 bucks a piece. "Pre owned" Pmag M3's are double that, or new in wrap gen3's triple....

[Casual Friday]

I have a mix of PMAGs, OKAY Industries, D&H with their own floorplate and a dozen or so BCM labeled D&H mags, and probably a few from manufacturers whose name escapes me at the moment.

I won't buy gen 2 PMAGs anymore, I have some that have grown over the years and no longer drop free, something I haven't experienced with any of the gen 3s. I picked up another 10 gen 3 MCT PMAGs the other day from the LGS, they were a little cheaper than any place online once you factor in shipping cost.

[That Guy]

The Lancers look sexy and I like their hybrid material design. If I was starting from scratch they would be tempting but I’d probably just go with P Mags or Brownells, whichever was cheaper.


I know I don't shoot much compared to most people here, and I get to shoot rifles even less. That said, I have had significantly better success with PMags than Brownells magazines. As in, somewhere around 5 or 6 thousand rounds through two 6920's with zero malfunctions with PMags and several (at least seven) B-mags that caused failures to feed when brand spanking new. One Brownells magazine fed the first round correctly, malfunctioned on the second, and when I pulled it out of the rifle the partially fed cartridge twisted one of the feed lips. Lifetime of the magazine: one round. Great....

I do admit that the B-mags that appeared to be functional during initial testing just keep on working very reliably so far. And I do admit my round count is extremely low compared to most people here. But such a distinct experience in magazine reliability between the two brands is kind of difficult to just shrug off. I would recommend, if the situation is such that availability of magazines in the future can't be assured, to pay for current production gen 3 PMags.

[Tensaw]

The Gen 3 Coyote mags are the issued mag for both the USMC and USAF going forward.

One advantage to Gen3 Pmags, besides fixing the double feed issue is the over insertion stop. In a recent Green Ops carbine class I watched a guy on track for the fastest time in the El Prez drill over insert a Gen 2 and lock up his rifle such that it took 2 people to clear.

Anyone got any idea why Magpul continues to produce the Gen 2 mags? Is it for the same reasons as why Glock carries on with Gen 3 pistols i.e., legislative reasons?

[Clusterfrack]

Anyone got any idea why Magpul continues to produce the Gen 2 mags? Is it for the same reasons as why Glock carries on with Gen 3 pistols i.e., legislative reasons?

One reason may be that the overinsertion stops prevent the G3 mags from seating fully in some lowers. Eg. Gen1 Noveske. (Don’t ask me how I know).

[Elwin]

One reason may be that the overinsertion stops prevent the G3 mags from seating fully in some lowers. Eg. Gen1 Noveske. (Don’t ask me how I know).

I also recall that they don’t work in some non-AR rifles that take AR mags and that do still work with M2. I don’t specifically remember which ones but I think it’s one or more of the bullpups out there and maybe a weirder conventional rifle or two.

[fatdog]

they don’t work in some non-AR rifles that take AR mags

Beretta ARX for sure, unless you file/sand that lip off the G3 version

[RevolverRob]

When folks say "GI mags" is there a specific vendor/maker they're looking for?

I bought half a dozen or so OKAY Surefeeds a bit ago and like them. But I want to pick up 10-20 more mags. I'm leaning towards splitting the difference and picking up 10x PMAGs and 10x Surefeeds.

[ASH556]

One thing to keep in mind RE aluminum/GI mags: they are much less forgiving of being dropped. I was working dry mag changes with snap caps in the garage even standing on a piece of carpet. Mags were D&H. Empty mag hit the carpet out of the gun, flipped onto the concrete floor and dented the feedlip, rendering the mag useless.

That was my “back to pmags” moment.

[Nephrology]

When folks say "GI mags" is there a specific vendor/maker they're looking for?

I bought half a dozen or so OKAY Surefeeds a bit ago and like them. But I want to pick up 10-20 more mags. I'm leaning towards splitting the difference and picking up 10x PMAGs and 10x Surefeeds.

I think of the USGI magazines, OKAY Industries tends to be generally considered the most well regarded OEM.


One thing to keep in mind RE aluminum/GI mags: they are much less forgiving of being dropped. I was working dry mag changes with snap caps in the garage even standing on a piece of carpet. Mags were D&H. Empty mag hit the carpet out of the gun, flipped onto the concrete floor and dented the feedlip, rendering the mag useless.

That was my “back to pmags” moment.

I won't be getting rid of my USGI mags but have only bought Magpuls or Lancers for a while now and generally subjectively prefer them over USGIs (have had issues with neither personally).

[jh9]

Did they eventually add the 2nd rib to stop the round tilt issue mentioned earlier to the M2/moe pmags as well as the M3s or is that an M3 only feature?


I won't be getting rid of my USGI mags but have only bought Magpuls or Lancers for a while now and generally subjectively prefer them over USGIs (have had issues with neither personally).

I don't know enough about polymer to know one way or another, but I think there's a difference between long term and short term durability. I only use pmags right now, but the long term "just in case" stash is all NHMTG aluminum still new in wrapper. The aluminum mags have been around long enough to know how they'll perform in 20 or 30 years. Pmags have only been around for about a decade and a half. I have no doubt pmags will handle abuse better than aluminum. I have no idea how they'll compare after sitting on a shelf for a decade or three.

[HCM]

When folks say "GI mags" is there a specific vendor/maker they're looking for?

I bought half a dozen or so OKAY Surefeeds a bit ago and like them. But I want to pick up 10-20 more mags. I'm leaning towards splitting the difference and picking up 10x PMAGs and 10x Surefeeds.

D&H are fine - because again - they are a consumable /disposable item.

[Nephrology]

I don't know enough about polymer to know one way or another, but I think there's a difference between long term and short term durability. I only use pmags right now, but the long term "just in case" stash is all NHMTG aluminum still new in wrapper. The aluminum mags have been around long enough to know how they'll perform in 20 or 30 years. Pmags have only been around for about a decade and a half. I have no doubt pmags will handle abuse better than aluminum. I have no idea how they'll compare after sitting on a shelf for a decade or three.

Yeah, realistically, either will be more than durable enough for my purposes. Most of my empty reserve mags are USGIs, too.

[M2CattleCo]

One thing to keep in mind RE aluminum/GI mags: they are much less forgiving of being dropped. I was working dry mag changes with snap caps in the garage even standing on a piece of carpet. Mags were D&H. Empty mag hit the carpet out of the gun, flipped onto the concrete floor and dented the feedlip, rendering the mag useless.

That was my “back to pmags” moment.



Yep. I’ve deadlined my fair share of aluminum mags over the years due to being dropped on the feedlips partially loaded and/or stepped on after they were dropped.

I’ve been using Pmags almost exclusively since ‘08 and have had a few Rev Ms swell and had fits with the Gen M3 until they fixed the transposition problem.

These days, I’m all M3 all the time.

[Guerrero]

Did they eventually add the 2nd rib to stop the round tilt issue mentioned earlier to the M2/moe pmags as well as the M3s or is that an M3 only feature?


Think it's only on M3's.

[Lost River]

When folks say "GI mags" is there a specific vendor/maker they're looking for?

I bought half a dozen or so OKAY Surefeeds a bit ago and like them. But I want to pick up 10-20 more mags. I'm leaning towards splitting the difference and picking up 10x PMAGs and 10x Surefeeds.

I use Colt mags.

When I was doing what I was doing, I always ran Colts and they performed extremely well, which is not something I can say for P mags. Though I do have a bunch of P-mags that have been generally good, I have had a bunch crack, spread etc.

The Colts have lasted for a very long time.

For example, when running PSD, I ran 28 rounds in 30s and never had a single issue. Last 5 were tracer, followed by 20 of duty, and top 3 tracer.

* Sidebar lesson for those who might want to know/learn.

Guy might say "Contact right, Contact front, whatever, but unless you are oriented in that direction, and see that action, you may not know exactly where that initial contact is. When your first 3 are tracers, that gives your team mates a visual clue what is happening. It also can give eyes in the sky (if you have them) a better reference. The last 5 tracers, let you know it is time to start thinking about switching mags.

Anyways. The Colt brand, and those who make mags for Colt have always been top notch, and if I have a choice, they are what I will grab first.

The grab bag I keep at home and travel with , which has my blow-out kit (T-CCC medical stuff) has Colt mags, Glock mags and some bottled water. Mostly it is the med stuff, as I don't really see a scenario where I would use 4 rifle mags in the U.S. The med kit has been used at a couple of auto wrecks though.

https://i.imgur.com/vPKmAWA.jpg?1

3 soft point, 1 green tip.

https://i.imgur.com/qs147Xm.jpg?1

[Nephrology]

I use Colt mags.

When I was doing what I was doing, I always ran Colts and they performed extremely well, which is not something I can say for P mags. Though I do have a bunch of P-mags that have been generally good, I have had a bunch crack, spread etc.

The Colts have lasted for a very long time.

For example, when running PSD, I ran 28 rounds in 30s and never had a single issue. Last 5 were tracer, followed by 20 of duty, and top 3 tracer.

* Sidebar lesson for those who might want to know/learn.

Guy might say "Contact right, Contact front, whatever, but unless you are oriented in that direction, and see that action, you may not know exactly where that initial contact is. When your first 3 are tracers, that gives your team mates a visual clue what is happening. It also can give eyes in the sky (if you have them) a better reference. The last 5 tracers, let you know it is time to start thinking about switching mags.

Anyways. The Colt brand, and those who make mags for Colt have always been top notch, and if I have a choice, they are what I will grab first.

The grab bag I keep at home and travel with , which has my blow-out kit (T-CCC medical stuff) has Colt mags, Glock mags and some bottled water. Mostly it is the med stuff, as I don't really see a scenario where I would use 4 rifle mags in the U.S. The med kit has been used at a couple of auto wrecks though.

https://i.imgur.com/vPKmAWA.jpg?1

3 soft point, 1 green tip.

https://i.imgur.com/qs147Xm.jpg?1

IIRC, Colt branded mags are made by OKAY Industries (based in New Britain CT, just SW of hartford)

[OlongJohnson]

Anyone have real experience with the Okay Surefeed E2 mags? I don't really want to wade through the 21 page thread over on Arfcom.

[fatdog]

Anyone have real experience with the Okay Surefeed E2 mags? .

I can give you one small data point. I have had some in my practice rotation for a year, unremarkable, work fine. That stippling was sort of weird to me at first but I sorta like it now. I doubt the stipple part has any serious purpose in my use case. I see them as just another good GI style mag with good no tilt followers, run mine with 28 rounds and they probably run fine with 30 except I never load mine to that point. I have an embarassing number of USGI mags laid back as I was sure HRC was going to become president in 2016 and I had lived through the ban. I would not hesitate to buy these or the non E2's if I were stocking up now just based on the small sample of 6 in my practice rotation.

[HCM]

So 28 rounds vs 30 has been mentioned a few times. The answer is, it depends.

There are two issues I’m aware of regarding this topic:

First, is the assertion that down loading by two increases reliability in GI mags. People from places that treat mags as the consumables they are, tend to favor 30 in GI mags. Those from places that don’t readily replace worn or malfunctioning mags, or still issued old black follower mags tend towards 28 in GI mags. IME if the mag is good and has anti tilt followers (green, tan or magpul) it should work with 30 but YMMV and there is a second issue with 30 in a GI mag.

GI mags hold exact 30 rounds. Newer mags like PMAGS etc have longer mag bodies with room for 31 or 32 rounds, however, that space is not for the extra rounds. It’s to allow space for the spring to work optimally with 30, and to allow some “flex” when loading / tac loading on a closed bolt. The flex allows you to ensure the mag is fully seated and the mag catch is fully engaged when loading on a closed bolt.

A 30 round GI mag with 30 rounds in it has little to no flex. So even if your GI mags run fine with 30 when loaded open bolt, you may want to download them (or use PMAGs etc) for closed bolt use. Other wise you may find yourself getting off one shot and having your partially locked mag drop out of the gun under recoil. Not that I’ve ever had that happen....... push -pull is a thing.

As Chuck P demonstrates in this video changing followers and floor plates can change whether or not your mag locks in with 30 on a closed bolt.


https://youtu.be/xiBtg4NgQc0

[theJanitor]

I wish E2's had the first round start on the same side as the first gen, and magpuls.

[Suvorov]

A 30 round GI mag with 30 rounds in it has little to no flex. So even if your GI mags run fine with 30 when loaded open bolt, you may want to download them (or use PMAGs etc) for closed bolt use. Other wise you may find yourself getting off one shot and having your partially locked mag drop out of the gun under recoil. Not that I’ve ever had that happen....... push -pull is a thing.


My experience as I demonstrated in front of Paul Howe and a whole class 🤬

[PD Sgt.]

Personally, I like using Lancers for training mags. First, they come in purple, which is both easy to see on the ground and easy to differentiate from everyone else’s, and second because I am not 100 percent convinced of the two piece design. Having said that, I have yet to have an issue, including full auto suppressed.

For work purposes I use the latest gen windowed Pmags for my barrier blind rounds, and Okay or DH for green tip/penetrator rounds. This allows me to instantly ID by touch what I am loading.

I do use some 20 round Pmags on my low profile kit. I have had no issues with the slightly curved mags, but honestly the straight profile mags worked fine for me as well.

[M2CattleCo]

I have never heard of a problem with the two pieces of the feedlips separating, but I have seen feeding issues due to the poor choice of polymer for the body, combined with the design of the follower, and the feed geometry that tries to mimic the original GI mags. They actually built a very tough magazine but it is also probably one the least reliable mags out there.

I would not consider them viable for any serious use.

[littlejerry]

I have never heard of a problem with the two pieces of the feedlips separating, but I have seen feeding issues due to the poor choice of polymer for the body, combined with the design of the follower, and the feed geometry that tries to mimic the original GI mags. They actually built a very tough magazine but it is also probably one the least reliable mags out there.

I would not consider them viable for any serious use.

You're speaking of the L5AWM? I haven't encountered feed issues, so I'm curious to hear your experience.

For me they've been more difficult to seat that M3 Pmags, but just as reliable(which means no failures suppressed or otherwise). The smaller size works better for double pouches and the clear/translucent body is convenient for my gun game of choice.

The latest rev M3 Pmags and L5AWMs are all I use anymore. GI mags just don't seem to last and definitely don't deal with dust and dirt as well.

[Clusterfrack]

You're speaking of the L5AWM? I haven't encountered feed issues, so I'm curious to hear your experience.


Same here. Actually, PMags have caused me more feed/seat issues when they get really dirty from suppressor crud. I download both to 28, and find the L5 AWMs easier to seat.

Of course my uses are low stakes, with no one shooting at me. I'm always eager to hear about issues with gear I think I can count on.

[M2CattleCo]

Sand. IME a little sand will stop a Lancer long before a Pmag.

For nasty suppressed use I don’t think anything beats a good tan follower GI mag.

I kinda shied away from the Magpul followers for GI mags when I cleaned some up with acetone and they melted.

[echo5charlie]

The dust cover is not for feed lip stress reduction when loaded. It is to protect the feed lips from damage and against intrusion of environmental factors.

Source: https://www.bigtexoutdoors.com/differences-between-gen-2-gen-3-magpul-pmags/ (can also be found at P&S, and is a great read overall)

A sample of one and not scientific, but I had a Gen1 PMag fully loaded in my garage for 7 years. It ran fine and still does.

[RevolverRob]

Well, recognizing a need to continue building my magazine assortment, particularly when there isn't ammo, components, or guns to buy...

I ordered 10 Gen3 windowless PMags and five Gen3 300BO mags, to compliment an assortment of Surefeed 20s and 30s (my go to right now) and a stack old school Master Molder 20s (range/training).

That takes me up to just shy of three dozen AR mags. Of which more than half should be 'serious use' capable.

[OlongJohnson]

Is that per rifle, or just a good start?

[RevolverRob]

Is that per rifle, or just a good start?

Both? I only have one STANAG 5.56 mag accepting gun here (Rattler).

The other AR is a Colt SMG pattern gun. Which I only have half a dozen mags for...but they're steel and generally very robust mags overall, I'm not worried about killing a half dozen of those in my lifetime unless I start going hard at PCC (in which case I'd switch guns anyways).

[Jim Watson]

A friend showed up the other day with a brand spanking new AR "custom built" by somebody I never heard of - which isn't hard in this era of assemblers - and his Pmags were tight in the well, having to be pushed in and pulled out. I tried one of my bona fide USGI surplus and it slid right in and dropped right out. Sorry, I don't know "generations" of plastic products.

[DDTSGM]

A friend showed up the other day with a brand spanking new AR "custom built" by somebody I never heard of - which isn't hard in this era of assemblers - and his Pmags were tight in the well, having to be pushed in and pulled out. I tried one of my bona fide USGI surplus and it slid right in and dropped right out. Sorry, I don't know "generations" of plastic products.

Who manufactured the stripped lower it was built from?

[Jim Watson]

Beats me, it had some sort of artsy squiggle logo. I could make out Arizona.

[ST911]

For the best reliable, long-term use mags, here are the names that I think I know meet the standard:
Magpul
Lancer
Okay (?)
Any other polymer mags?
I know there are other Aluminum mag brands that are recommended... could someone fill in some names for me?

Started and stopped several replies, but nutshell: Of the latest revisions of the major mags there really isn't a bad choice to make, only degrees of better.

[TGS]

A friend showed up the other day with a brand spanking new AR "custom built" by somebody I never heard of - which isn't hard in this era of assemblers - and his Pmags were tight in the well, having to be pushed in and pulled out. I tried one of my bona fide USGI surplus and it slid right in and dropped right out. Sorry, I don't know "generations" of plastic products.

He probably had Gen 1 or Gen 2 PMAGs. They have a thicker body that is purposely intended to fit tighter than USGI or Gen 3 PMAGs. Magpul designed the mags this way to reduce the ingress of dust during field operations....at least, this is how a Magpul rep explained it to me at an expo in 2008 when he was handing out free mags. HK went about this problem their own way, by undersizing the mag well to make USGI mags fit a little tighter to reduce debris ingress....meaning the PMAGs wouldn't fit, so they came out with the EMAG and Gen 3 PMAG which has a slimmer body to allow seating in the tighter magwell.

ETA: Just to be clear I'm not saying your buddy has an HK, but some manufacturers do intentionally make their magwells tighter...and even among those that don't, one example might be particularly tighter than another if using the earlier PMAGs.

[KEW8338]

He probably had Gen 1 or Gen 2 PMAGs. They have a thicker body that is purposely intended to fit tighter than USGI or Gen 3 PMAGs. Magpul designed the mags this way to reduce the ingress of dust during field operations....at least, this is how a Magpul rep explained it to me at an expo in 2008 when he was handing out free mags. HK went about this problem their own way, by undersizing the mag well to make USGI mags fit a little tighter to reduce debris ingress....meaning the PMAGs wouldn't fit, so they came out with the EMAG and Gen 3 PMAG which has a slimmer body to allow seating in the tighter magwell.

ETA: Just to be clear I'm not saying your buddy has an HK, but some manufacturers do intentionally make their magwells tighter...and even among those that don't, one example might be particularly tighter than another if using the earlier PMAGs.

One of my many gripes toward the HK416 was its peculiarities toward magazines. Im sure that reasoning makes sense to the no compromise engineers. But when you get boxes of mags, and have to go through them to see what ones fit.

HK mags also always fit fine in 416s, so do they not do the dust thing with their own stuff?

Cost outweighs the miniscule benefit.

Some industry types had relayed to me, the increased wall thickness was to compensate for the fact the tan and green dye being used in PMAGs degraded the durability of the plastic, so they had to beef it up.

[rob_s]

got one of the many spam emails from Magpul the other day that no amount of smashing "unsubscribe" seems to dissuade, and I saw that they have a 60 rounder, which got me to thinking about this thread and the 60 round Surefire mag they sent me some 10+ years ago it seems like.

Stepping up from the 30s, what's the going suggestion for the 60s?

[WobblyPossum]

got one of the many spam emails from Magpul the other day that no amount of smashing "unsubscribe" seems to dissuade, and I saw that they have a 60 rounder, which got me to thinking about this thread and the 60 round Surefire mag they sent me some 10+ years ago it seems like.

Stepping up from the 30s, what's the going suggestion for the 60s?

The Magpul D60 drum seems to be the go-to 60 round magazine. I don’t have one, I also only have the Surefire. I haven’t put many rounds through it so I can’t speak to its reliability. I have heard of more issues with the Surefire than the Magpul though.

[TWR]

I remember reading about Pmags not dropping free and it was blamed on the mags and out of spec lowers or overloaded or counterfeit mags. If Magpul designed them to seal out dust, they sure were quiet about it.

[theJanitor]

Stepping up from the 30s, what's the going suggestion for the 60s?

I'd still favor a redimag, and two good 30 rounders, over a single 60. Not an answer to your question, I know

[rob_s]

I'd still favor a redimag, and two good 30 rounders, over a single 60. Not an answer to your question, I know

I would too, and my suppressed ninja gun collecting dust in the safe wears a RM & two 30-round NHMTGs with 28 rounds each of something or other... :cool:

But outside of that, 60 round mags are fun, and if they run they are more fun, and if they run when they are fun they may be more likely to get some "serious use".

[Clusterfrack]

I have heard of more issues with the Surefire than the Magpul though.

The Surefire 60 round mag is the worst AR product I have ever used. I have experience with 4, and none of them worked.

[WobblyPossum]

The Surefire 60 round mag is the worst AR product I have ever used. I have experience with 4, and none of them worked.

It’s definitely one of those purchases that could be filed under not knowing what I didn’t know. If I knew then that those things weren’t reliable at all, I would’ve just spent the money on a whole bunch of normal magazines.

[Clusterfrack]

It’s definitely one of those purchases that could be filed under not knowing what I didn’t know. If I knew then that those things weren’t reliable at all, I would’ve just spent the money on a whole bunch of normal magazines.

I bought one to try, and immediately sold it... But two other guys were convinced that they could be made to work. After a lot of fiddling, polishing, dry lube, and lost matches, they finally admitted defeat. I actually won a match because one of these guys' SF60 shit the bed on the last stage. This dude was a high profile sponsored shooter at the time. Did I rub it in? Of course I did.

[HCM]

I remember reading about Pmags not dropping free and it was blamed on the mags and out of spec lowers or overloaded or counterfeit mags. If Magpul designed them to seal out dust, they sure were quiet about it.

Can't speak to the dust thing but back in the Gen1/Gen 2 days, word was the Black Pmags were the strongest and the other colors went away because the chemicals for the other colors weakened the material.

Gen 1 Pmags were thicker. The issue was less dropping free and more that in some lowers and non AR platforms they would either not insert/ lock-in at all or insert/lock-in when empty but not when loaded as the mags would swell slightly. That was initially resolved with the E-mag. I still have a bunch of black and Foliage green Gen 1 Pmags which are still going strong. I've never seen a Colt or FN lower they would not work in ranging from M16A1's, and M16A3's to Colt Commandos and M4A1's.

We're at the point where the gen3s fit everything except non standard lowers that have issues with the over insertion tab.

[TWR]

“ He probably had Gen 1 or Gen 2 PMAGs. They have a thicker body that is purposely intended to fit tighter than USGI or Gen 3 PMAGs. Magpul designed the mags this way to reduce the ingress of dust during field operations....at least, this is how a Magpul rep explained it to me at an expo in 2008 when he was handing out free mags.”

This quote was what I was referring to.

I never had a Colt not work with a Pmag and that included Gen 1’s and 2’s both tan and black. I’m all Gen 3 now but my go to mags are NHTMG.

[ASH556]

“ He probably had Gen 1 or Gen 2 PMAGs. They have a thicker body that is purposely intended to fit tighter than USGI or Gen 3 PMAGs. Magpul designed the mags this way to reduce the ingress of dust during field operations....at least, this is how a Magpul rep explained it to me at an expo in 2008 when he was handing out free mags.”

This quote was what I was referring to.

I never had a Colt not work with a Pmag and that included Gen 1’s and 2’s both tan and black. I’m all Gen 3 now but my go to mags are NHTMG.

I have some Gen 1 and Gen 2 PMAGS that wouldn’t drop free from a couple different Colt lowers I had that drop just fine from my Daniel Defense SBR lower. It can be a real thing.

[Default.mp3]

One of my many gripes toward the HK416 was its peculiarities toward magazines. Im sure that reasoning makes sense to the no compromise engineers. But when you get boxes of mags, and have to go through them to see what ones fit.

HK mags also always fit fine in 416s, so do they not do the dust thing with their own stuff?Not really on topic with the thread, but a random bit of tidbit about the old HK416 magwell (the new A5 and corresponding MR223A3 have more conventional magwells) from the "U.S. PM and developer at HK for the HKM4 (the early HK416 project name) and HK416 development from Day 1 thru May 2006":


HK made a mistake using the proprietary HKM4/HK416 mag well (longer) versus the AR-15/M16/M4 industry standard (shorter). They did it for two reasons, one valid one not. For better magazine rigidity and top round alignment for better feeding - valid. The other so the HK SA80 magazine would be used with it to improve/insure the superior function the gun is known for. While correct for functional reasons they did not properly consider the fact that all users would not want to buy and use the more expensive, heavier HK magazine and that downstream it would cause trouble with after market mags. Just the fact that it cannot use standard PMags is enough for some customers to pass on it. This has and is also causing issues in the USMC where they have to make sure the right mag is used in the right rifle (the M27 IAR will not accept their PMags so troops cannot share ammo already loaded). We told the Germans but..... G3KurzSource: https://www.hkpro.com/threads/why-has-hk-never-built-a-bullpup-rifle.138504/page-2#post-1075879

In regards to the more common claim about it really being about being able to use the SA80 blank firing magazine with the round inhibitor:

This is TOTAL FANTASY! Who wrote this? The HK Safety Blank Firing Magazine made for the UK SA80A2 has ZERO/NOTHING to do with the mag well on the HK416. I have already explained this, many times, and again in this threaad. I was the US PM at HK for the concept, development and fielding of the HKM4/HK416. It had nothing to do with the blank magazine. Reread my posts if you want the real story on the mag well. And yes HK's choice of this longer mag well has been and continues to be a mistake.Source: https://www.hkpro.com/threads/new-hk416-ic.147341/page-4#post-1100658

[DDTSGM]

So is STANAG a thing? Or just Unicorn dust?

I have too many USGI mags to even think about changing over - easily enough to last my lifetime.

[RevolverRob]

So is STANAG a thing? Or just Unicorn dust?

I have too many USGI mags to even think about changing over - easily enough to last my lifetime.

Technically, there is no STANAG for rifle magazines.

Draft STANAG 4179 has been proposed to allow the interchange of 5.56mm magazines between NATO countries. But it has never been ratified. There are, however, a number of magazines that meet that specifications laid out in Draft STANAG 4179, because the draft actually lays out the location and dimensions for the mag latch, and bolt stop, etc. So any magazine that fits into a Draft STANAG 4179 dimensions and functions correctly would technically be STANAG 4179 compliant (if such a thing actually existed).

So PMags, USGI, etc. can all be "STANAG" mags.

[stomridertx]

I've landed on using the slightly cheaper Magpul MOE PMags (Gen 2) for training and general range use, and M3 PMags are kept loaded with the expensive defensive ammo. There's not a lot of cost difference, but they are easily identifiable from one another and the Gen 2 mags really work just fine. There's no reason however to not invest in the best they offer to bet your life on.

[OlongJohnson]

Not sure if I mentioned this, but last year, I took all my M2 mags and put them on consignment at the LGS. By waiting five minutes and ordering when they came in stock online, I replaced them with current-rev M3s for less than I got for the M2s, so I ended up with more M3s than I had M2s before.

[TWR]

Ya I sold all my Gen 2’s that I was using then sold my Gen 3’s still in the bag. Replaced them with windowed Gen 3’s for $1 less. It’s crazy that folks don’t know but a place or two to buy from and the panic sets in when they show out of stock.

[willie]

Is anyone buying 10 rd mags in case of a mag ban?

[Suvorov]

Is anyone buying 10 rd mags in case of a mag ban?

You will have plenty of time after the ban to do that.

Ask me how I know 🤬

[Casual Friday]

Is anyone buying 10 rd mags in case of a mag ban?

Absolutely not.

[M2CattleCo]

Is anyone buying 10 rd mags in case of a mag ban?



I skipped over that and cut all my ARs in half because who even needs those weapons of war??

I taught my daughter to lay still and pray, that way if she’s being raped or robbed, maybe the perp won’t hurt her.

If you’re interested in complying, comply.

[willie]

I skipped over that and cut all my ARs in half because who even needs those weapons of war??

I taught my daughter to lay still and pray, that way if she’s being raped or robbed, maybe the perp won’t hurt her.
at
If you’re interested in complying, comply.

My age is such that these laws may have little effect on me. But I urge younger persons to avoid becoming a felon if magazine capacity is the issue. I have owned at least 400 AR magazines which I bought and sold over the years. I'm sitting on a stash now. Likewise, I have forgot how many AR's I have owned. I'm not dumb enough to let the magazines or the rifles, legal now, send me to prison. But that is each person's call.

[19852+]

I have some Gen 1 and Gen 2 PMAGS that wouldn’t drop free from a couple different Colt lowers I had that drop just fine from my Daniel Defense SBR lower. It can be a real thing.

It's a real thing for me. Two LMT lowers, one bought in 2011, the other 2016. The older lower has no issues with G1,2,3 pmags. With the younger lower the P1 pmags have to forced in and pulled out, they function but drop free is out ! G2's are better, G3's are best.

[M2CattleCo]

My age is such that these laws may have little effect on me. But I urge younger persons to avoid becoming a felon if magazine capacity is the issue. I have owned at least 400 AR magazines which I bought and sold over the years. I'm sitting on a stash now. Likewise, I have forgot how many AR's I have owned. I'm not dumb enough to let the magazines or the rifles, legal now, send me to prison. But that is each person's call.

If they’re just toys to you, then turn ‘em in and comply if it ever comes to that.

[willie]

If they’re just toys to you, then turn ‘em in and comply if it ever comes to that.

My family owned a MP-40 and French MAS. One neighbor owned a M3 grease gun, and another had a German M-34 under his bed. Two other guys possessed a Browning M2. These were war trophies except for the M2. I am writing about things occurring from 1945 after the war. They were illegal. Today, if you owned these weapons, and if your choice was prison or surrender, what would you do? None involved in my example went to prison.

[Casual Friday]

My family owned a MP-40 and French MAS. One neighbor owned a M3 grease gun, and another had a German M-34 under his bed. Two other guys possessed a Browning M2. These were war trophies except for the M2. I am writing about things occurring from 1945 after the war. They were illegal. Today, if you owned these weapons, and if your choice was prison or surrender, what would you do? None involved in my example went to prison.

What makes you think those are the only two options?

[willie]

What makes you think those are the only two options?

Note the word "today". Today they are not eligible for registration if illegal.

[HCM]

Note the word "today". Today they are not eligible for registration if illegal.

What makes you think that registration is the only other option ?

[willie]

Let me clarify my position on federal legislation. If Items in my possession become illegal, and if keeping them puts me at risk of becoming a felon, then I will dispose of them. I wish not to spend what little money I have on legal fees. I wish not to subject my wife to the stress that would accompany the legal problem. I wish not to lose my good name by going to prison. Having worked in jails and prisons convinced me that I do not want to become a resident of one.

If legislation does place AR's and their magazines under class 3 rules, then I will keep one carbine and some magazines by completing the paperwork and paying the tax.

[theJanitor]

This the tech forum. the politics forum is over there -->

[willie]

This the tech forum. the politics forum is over there -->

Excellent point!!!

Thank you.

[M2CattleCo]

Let me clarify my position on federal legislation. If Items in my possession become illegal, and if keeping them puts me at risk of becoming a felon, then I will dispose of them. I wish not to spend what little money I have on legal fees. I wish not to subject my wife to the stress that would accompany the legal problem. I wish not to lose my good name by going to prison. Having worked in jails and prisons convinced me that I do not want to become a resident of one.

If legislation does place AR's and their magazines under class 3 rules, then I will keep one carbine and some magazines by completing the paperwork and paying the tax.

Some people get it, some people don’t.

You are what is known as a subject. Not everyone is.

[DDTSGM]

Throughout my working life I came to know, at least in passing, the majority of the LEO's in Kansas. Each Sheriff's election I would hear the scuttlebutt from numerous agencies 'Jimmy say's if John gets elected he's quitting.' Same thing when Chief's positions came open - 'if my guy doesn't get it I'm walking. Most of those folks hung around. Things be different when the reality that you have a family and bills to pay hits home.

Somehow I think a lot of folks will change their tune if and when what we fear becomes reality.

[Nephrology]

Yeah, let's try to keep this thread on topic. Less about spooky ban politics, more about AR mags.

[WobblyPossum]

Yeah, let's try to keep this thread on topic. Less about spooky ban politics, more about AR mags.

I remember seeing a series of videos by Dan Bartocci (Small Arms Solutions) posted throughout the last couple of months about AR magazines. I didn’t watch them all, I think there are three now, but I remember the one I did watch had pretty much the same recommendations provided early in this thread: Magpul GenM3 PMags and Lancer AWMs for polymer mags, and the Okay Industries for aluminum mags were the best and everything else was ranged from pretty good to hot garbage.

[Paul D]

In regards to the PMAGs, do the color of the mags affect the material strength? I remember reading somewhere that the FDE mags are inherently weaker than the black mags due to the coloring process. I like the window version of PMAGs but this thread makes me wonder if that is also an inherent weakness. So far I haven't noticed any premature cracks in the body due to the windows.

[WobblyPossum]

I do remember reading something similar. I believe that is what lead Magpul to eventually stop production of most of the colored mags. I remember reading that the Sand and MCT colored mags were the only ones that had the same strength/durability as the black ones. I don’t know why they stopped selling the Sand ones but I’m guessing they just weren’t popular with customers since they were an off-white and you were expected to dye them in whatever colors you wanted after purchase. I was able to snag 10 for pretty cheap once they were discontinued.

[Default.mp3]

In regards to the PMAGs, do the color of the mags affect the material strength? I remember reading somewhere that the FDE mags are inherently weaker than the black mags due to the coloring process. I like the window version of PMAGs but this thread makes me wonder if that is also an inherent weakness. So far I haven't noticed any premature cracks in the body due to the windows.


I do remember reading something similar. I believe that is what lead Magpul to eventually stop production of most of the colored mags. I remember reading that the Sand and MCT colored mags were the only ones that had the same strength/durability as the black ones. I don’t know why they stopped selling the Sand ones but I’m guessing they just weren’t popular with customers since they were an off-white and you were expected to dye them in whatever colors you wanted after purchase. I was able to snag 10 for pretty cheap once they were discontinued.The colored PMAGs were definitely not as durable until you got to the Gen3 polymers. The Gen2s definitely had this issue, and as noted, it is why they got discontinued. The Sand and MCT are actually stronger than the black, IIRC; I know the sand was definitely advertised as such. The dyeing aspect did not take off as hoped, and thus they were eventually discontinued due to the lack of sales as guessed (to my great annoyance when it comes to AR-10 mags, as they don't make the 25 rounders in MCT).

[M2CattleCo]

Crow may be on the menu.

I pulled all my junk out for some training after work today. First reload drill with the AR, had to strip the mag. 4 of my 5 Gen M3s in my training rotation wouldn’t drop free, the fifth barely would. These are not even six months old and dropped free until now. I have a little over 2K rounds through these 5 mags.

I went to the office and drug out a dusty box of green follower Colt mags and they shot out like shit through a goose.

[OlongJohnson]

Crow may be on the menu.

I pulled all my junk out for some training after work today. First reload drill with the AR, had to strip the mag. 4 of my 5 Gen M3s in my training rotation wouldn’t drop free, the fifth barely would. These are not even six months old and dropped free until now. I have a little over 2K rounds through these 5 mags.

I went to the office and drug out a dusty box of green follower Colt mags and they shot out like shit through a goose.

How hot was it in the vehicle they sat in all day?

[M2CattleCo]

They’re kept in a locker in the office.

I don’t really know what to think. Those mags and that BCM lower are my daily beaters. They’ve been dropping free since October or November.

Now they don’t drop from the BCM lower, but I just tried ‘em in a few other lowers, and they DO still drop from a couple of Colt and SOLGW lowers.

Maybe the BCM lower was on the edge of being too tight and the mags relaxed just enough to make ‘em stick.

I’m going to keep using them and see if it gets worse.

[GyroF-16]

They’re kept in a locker in the office.

I don’t really know what to think. Those mags and that BCM lower are my daily beaters. They’ve been dropping free since October or November.

Now they don’t drop from the BCM lower, but I just tried ‘em in a few other lowers, and they DO still drop from a couple of Colt and SOLGW lowers.

Maybe the BCM lower was on the edge of being too tight and the mags relaxed just enough to make ‘em stick.

I’m going to keep using them and see if it gets worse.

Maybe sand them just a little bit?

[DDTSGM]

They’re kept in a locker in the office.

I don’t really know what to think. Those mags and that BCM lower are my daily beaters. They’ve been dropping free since October or November.

Now they don’t drop from the BCM lower, but I just tried ‘em in a few other lowers, and they DO still drop from a couple of Colt and SOLGW lowers.

Maybe the BCM lower was on the edge of being too tight and the mags relaxed just enough to make ‘em stick.

I’m going to keep using them and see if it gets worse.

IIRC, I've read the BCM magwells are tight and problems with MagPul's are not unheard of.

The M3 version of the PMag adds an “over insertion tab” on the rear spine of the magazine. Unfortunately, it interfaces with an area of the lower that can vary substantially during the manufacturing of a milspec lower receiver group.

For this section of the weapon you have 2 sets of tolerances; forging tolerances and machining tolerances. When you add them up the Mil-Std TDP finished product has a range. For over 5 decades, the dimensions controlling the lower end of the magwell have been generous with tolerances. Allowing as much as +-.060” of tolerance in the M16, and even more within the M4 requirements, with the majority of the tolerances in the forging. That means lowers can vary by 1/8” in this area!

BCM lower receivers are built within the semi auto versions of those prints. Any AR15 lower built to the correct print could still have this issue with the over insertion tab.

At one point it was reported that BCM's response to the problem was that 'MagPul magazines are not milspec' - this post from BCM isn't so abrupt:

It is not fully backwards compatible. Based on our analysis, the location of the tab is based on a lower built to the center of the tolerance range, which leaves the possibility of up to 1/16” of interference in some cases. We have gone over the documents many times to ensure this is not an oversight on our part. If it was, we would scramble to make it right. We have not found this to be the case though. Due to the allowable tolerances in the mil-spec prints, the tab will work with some lowers, and not in others. This is not specific to BCM and similar situations will arise from many other makers whose tolerances may even exceed the TDP allowances.

The PMag is obviously an excellent design, but this tab has the possibility to cause issues with any milspec lower. As a result it is possible even within the same manufacturer to have it fit some and not on others. If you want an inventory or load out of fully cross compatible mags we recommend you file off a bit of that tab, because while it may fit in the couple of your lowers, and then it may not fit in the next couple of your buddies AR.

Bravo Company USA, Inc

https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry/BCM-Lower-does-NOT-accept-Magpul-Mags-/138-287793/

All this to say, why have to worry about what generation mag you have, and pay more to boot?

GI mags work just fine for me - I'm not shooting green tip in blowing sugar sand.

Okay/Surefeed, D&H, Brownells - mags a disposable items, easier to chuck them if you generally have less than $10.00 invested.

A differing view from a BTDT infantry officer:

https://primaryandsecondary.com/why-pmags-are-better-than-aluminum-usgi-mags/

[M2CattleCo]

The over insertion tab would prevent the mag from locking in.

I had that problem with two BCM lowers from 2010-12.

I have Colt lowers from before Magpul was even a company and they’re fine with Gen M3s.

[Caballoflaco]

This isn’t the first or second time I’ve read about a BCM lower having too tight of a magwell to drop free pmags.

[theJanitor]

The issue isn’t with M2’s BCM, it’s the fact that the pmags have swelled or flexed enough to have an effect on performance. I doubt the lower shrank:cool:

[DDTSGM]

The issue isn’t with M2’s BCM, it’s the fact that the pmags have swelled or flexed enough to have an effect on performance. I doubt the lower shrank:cool:

So since the thread title is Recommended serious use AR mags? would we be remiss in suggesting pmags, if they flex or swell?

Have there been any problems with USGI aluminum mags in this regard?

[HCM]

So since the thread title is Recommended serious use AR mags? would we be remiss in suggesting pmags, if they flex or swell?

Have there been any problems with USGI aluminum mags in this regard?

No. Nothing is perfect and AR mags are consumables.

Aluminum USGI mags can have issues with the feed lips spreading under similar conditions which effects reliably. This is why there is a gauge available via brownells (which has an NSN number) to check feed lip spread on Aluminum GI mags.

This can happen to PMAGS too but results in visible cracks before it causes issues.

I’d rather have mags that don’t drop free than mags puking rounds and causing malfunctions.

M3 Pmags were recommended over Gen 2s for a reason.

M3 Pmags are also now standard issue for the USMC and USAF so they are now also “GI” mags.

[HCM]

This isn’t the first or second time I’ve read about a BCM lower having too tight of a magwell to drop free pmags.

Same.

[M2CattleCo]

I don’t know how or why, but I am pretty sure that those 5 mags dropped free from that BCM plenty of times since I put them to use back in Oct or November. But I am starting to doubt myself.

Because.

I just tried about 10 other Gen M3s, some loaded, some never used and NONE of them dropped free either.

The magwell is tight front to back. I can see where they’re rubbing in the magwell.

Every last one of those mags is nowhere close to a tight fit in any of my other lowers.

[WobblyPossum]

I have one BCM lower AR. Gen M3 PMags will insert fine and drop free but I have heard numerous accounts from others about incompatibility between the two. I wouldn’t worry about it one way or the other but I also don’t prioritize reload speed to the point where I worry about the extra half a second to second needed to manually remove the old mag from the mag well if the mag doesn’t drop free. Like HCM I value the added functional reliability and durability of the Gen M3 PMag enough that I’d be okay sacrificing the faster reload. My Gen M3 PMags also have no issues with the Colt lower AR I’m issued and a Wilson Combat lower AR I have.

[OlongJohnson]

For this section of the weapon you have 2 sets of tolerances; forging tolerances and machining tolerances. When you add them up the Mil-Std TDP finished product has a range. For over 5 decades, the dimensions controlling the lower end of the magwell have been generous with tolerances. Allowing as much as +-.060” of tolerance in the M16, and even more within the M4 requirements, with the majority of the tolerances in the forging. That means lowers can vary by 1/8” in this area!

As pointed out, +/-0.060 is A LOT. How much cost would it add to stick an end mill in there and clean it up back to zero so you're not dependent on the as-forged condition? Wonder how many other lower manufacturers do that?

[DDTSGM]

No. Nothing is perfect and AR mags are consumables.

Aluminum USGI mags can have issues with the feed lips spreading under similar conditions which effects reliably. This is why there is a gauge available via brownells (which has an NSN number) to check feed lip spread on Aluminum GI mags.

This can happen to PMAGS too but results in visible cracks before it causes issues.

I’d rather have mags that don’t drop free than mags puking rounds and causing malfunctions.

M3 Pmags were recommended over Gen 2s for a reason.

M3 Pmags are also now standard issue for the USMC and USAF so they are now also “GI” mags.

I believe I mentioned magazines are consumables in an earlier post - also that I'd rather pay $9-10 bucks versus $3-5 (minimum) more.

Right now, I just don't think the juice is worth the squeeze for MY particular needs.

My mags aren't carried as part of the same basic load out for days on end, either in a patrol unit, mil vehicle, or dismounted patrol.

My mags are used in rotation, by the numbers, reloaded with -2, and put back at the end of the order. I keep four to six beater mags loose for loading as needed with less rounds for range drills.

I rarely, almost never, drop a mag on a hard surface, and almost never step on a mag (admittedly more of a problem with aluminum mags than pmags).

So the plethora of aluminum mags I have suit my needs.

I haven't had to dump one of my numbered mags for puking rounds, but have had the experience of a beater mag puke rounds upon over vigorous insertion.

I figure don't seat the mag like you are trying to beat demons from the rifle, don't routinely drop on hard surfaces, and don't step on them too much, aluminum USGI's run right in MY wheelhouse, based on a semi-informed decision, which is what I would encourage.

[DDTSGM]

As pointed out, +/-0.060 is A LOT. How much cost would it add to stick an end mill in there and clean it up back to zero so you're not dependent on the as-forged condition? Wonder how many other lower manufacturers do that?

Even though I choose to use USGI's, pmags are becoming a ubiquitous choice. It would make sense for BCM to open their magwell tolerances a bit to accomodate them.

It could be a matter of not that many problems compared to the cost of doing that, but that certainly isn't the way BCM advertises.

[OlongJohnson]

Even though I choose to use USGI's, pmags are becoming a ubiquitous choice. It would make sense for BCM to open their magwell tolerances a bit to accomodate them.

It could be a matter of not that many problems compared to the cost of doing that, but that certainly isn't the way BCM advertises.

A matter of semantics, but because I'm an engineer, it's one that matters to me. "Opening tolerances" means increasing the allowed variation. What is needed is "tightening tolerances" to reduce the allowed variation. Maybe something like +0.060/-0.030 or +0.060/-0.005. Even the latter is basically a mile if they actually add a step to CNC the feature rather than leaving it as-forged.

It would be appropriate to say, "opening the minimum dimension."

I'm not going to write an essay, but I do wish more people on the internet understood and were precise about the differences between dimension, tolerance, and fit or clearance.

An observation I've made about BCM's production in the past is that they do a lot of fancy-looking QC inspecting of parts they don't actually manufacture. The QC manager where I used to work had a quote he liked to use that, "You can't inspect quality into a part." The point is that quality starts looong before anything is inspected.

Does anyone know if BCM actually machines their lowers? Or do they rely on another shop that's invested the many $100ks for good CNC equipment to do that work?

Based on my experience in manufacturing and business, if I knew that a tolerance on my part varied such that a noticeable fraction of my user base would have sub-par performance when using it with what is likely the most popular version of an accessory necessary for it to operate, I would take steps to tighten that tolerance to eliminate the problem, at least to the extent that doing so did not take it outside of whatever set of specs I needed to say it complied with. Going from +/-0.060 to +0.060/-0.030 or +0.060/-0.005 doesn't make it non-compliant with the mil spec, it just eliminates the chance of sub-par performance for a big slice of the user base. I can think of only two reasons to not do that. The first would be cost, which shouldn't prevent me from doing the right thing for a product that is marketed as a premium, ultra-functional product and sold at a premium price. The second would be if I couldn't make the change using the available control I had over the production process, which would be the case if I wasn't actually machining the stuff in-house, and instead relying on a vendor to do it and they were unwilling to add the steps at a cost that was reasonable.

[WobblyPossum]

I believe I mentioned magazines are consumables in an earlier post - also that I'd rather pay $9-10 bucks versus $3-5 (minimum) more.

Right now, I just don't think the juice is worth the squeeze for MY particular needs.


If cost is the primary motivator for sticking with aluminum mags, you can find Gen M3 PMags for under $11 a piece. Several forum members, myself included, have purchased 5-packs of tan mags from DSG Arms for $54 ($10.80 each). These five-packs have been priced the same throughout the entire pandemic so far and regularly come back in stock. DSG also allows for back orders. I’m sure a little bit of searching will show other retailers with similar prices but I haven’t put the time in to do so.

[HCM]

I believe I mentioned magazines are consumables in an earlier post - also that I'd rather pay $9-10 bucks versus $3-5 (minimum) more.

Right now, I just don't think the juice is worth the squeeze for MY particular needs.

My mags aren't carried as part of the same basic load out for days on end, either in a patrol unit, mil vehicle, or dismounted patrol.

My mags are used in rotation, by the numbers, reloaded with -2, and put back at the end of the order. I keep four to six beater mags loose for loading as needed with less rounds for range drills.

I rarely, almost never, drop a mag on a hard surface, and almost never step on a mag (admittedly more of a problem with aluminum mags than pmags).

So the plethora of aluminum mags I have suit my needs.

I haven't had to dump one of my numbered mags for puking rounds, but have had the experience of a beater mag puke rounds upon over vigorous insertion.

I figure don't seat the mag like you are trying to beat demons from the rifle, don't routinely drop on hard surfaces, and don't step on them too much, aluminum USGI's run right in MY wheelhouse, based on a semi-informed decision, which is what I would encourage.

If you don’t have a feed lip gauge a good test for GI aluminum mags is to load to 30 and give the mag a sharp tap on he base. If the rounds dislodge at all it means the feed lips are start to spread. If it actually pukes rounds it’s time to go to mag heaven.

[Doc_Glock]

I seem to recall a thread documenting heavy full auto use at a "machine gun" range in Vegas on Arf.com or something where the range owner said the standard metal GI mags worked best, at least in that application in that application?

Me personally I use Aluminum, but my use is light. And they could work in the FS2000 as well. Which I finally sold so that excuse is gone. No complaints.

[RoyGBiv]

I buy M3s here.

https://lanbosarmory.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=15938&referrer=cnwr_4191340829622

It's a local business. Have ordered several times, always good service. Hard to beat the price, even with TX sales tax included. Given that M3s come with the clips to prevent the feed lips being stressed if the mags are kept loaded, I see no point in buying M2s. Plenty of stock at this time.

Thanks! Have been trying to find 10 round pmags in stock.
Not only in stock, but at $10.26/each, low priced. Savings vs Academy (out of stock) covered shipping.

[DDTSGM]

If you don’t have a feed lip gauge a good test for GI aluminum mags is to load to 30 and give the mag a sharp tap on he base. If the rounds dislodge at all it means the feed lips are start to spread. If it actually pukes rounds it’s time to go to mag heaven.

Thanks.

[DDTSGM]

If cost is the primary motivator for sticking with aluminum mags, you can find Gen M3 PMags for under $11 a piece. Several forum members, myself included, have purchased 5-packs of tan mags from DSG Arms for $54 ($10.80 each). These five-packs have been priced the same throughout the entire pandemic so far and regularly come back in stock. DSG also allows for back orders. I’m sure a little bit of searching will show other retailers with similar prices but I haven’t put the time in to do so.

Thanks for taking the time to post that info.

Years ago I bought up enough USGI's to last a good while. I have about a hundred - mostly Brownells. For that reason I'm pretty much locked into them.

[tlong17]

My neighborhood LGS frequently has 10 packs for sale at not awful prices. M3 and M3 windowed as well as OKAY Surefeeds and E2s.

https://store.readygunner.com/products/magpul-10pmagm3bundle-3413

https://store.readygunner.com/products/magpul-10pmagm3windowbundle-3413

[WobblyPossum]

My neighborhood LGS frequently has 10 packs for sale at not awful prices. M3 and M3 windowed as well as OKAY Surefeeds and E2s.

https://store.readygunner.com/products/magpul-10pmagm3bundle-3413

https://store.readygunner.com/products/magpul-10pmagm3windowbundle-3413
While the $12 per regular mag isn’t the best deal around right now, I think $13 per windowed mag actually might be the lowest price I’ve seen windowed GenM3 PMags go for.

[Archer1440]

In the FWIW column: Last week, ran through a bunch of Hornady TAP that had been loaded in 30-round PMAGs since 2008, with a lot of that time riding around in various car trunks, with zero issues.

My regular go-to is a small pile of five 20-round PMAGs from the same era, zero issues with several thousand rounds through them- unlike a set of 5 Brownells’ 20-round mags that started failing to lock the bolt back after a few months of use, in several of M4 pattern carbines I rotate (Colt 6920, Colt SOCOM, Bravo, and RRA).

All those carbines run perfectly with the “torture tested” old 20-round PMAGs, but the Brownells have been slightly disappointing. I suppose new springs and followers might fix them, because the bodies are in great shape, but with the PMAGs working so well, I haven’t bothered.

I bought a bunch more of the gen-3 20-rounders a couple of years ago and those are still in their bags, waiting for one of the old ones to go down. Hasn’t happened yet.

[theJanitor]

are there any worthwhile upgrades to Surefeed 20 mags?

[OlongJohnson]

Botach has Surefeed E2s for $9.98 each at this time.

[DDTSGM]

And they also have cute little 10 rounders for $14.98

Are the E2's GTG? I might get a couple just to try the texture.

[M2CattleCo]

...Based on my experience in manufacturing and business, if I knew that a tolerance on my part varied such that a noticeable fraction of my user base would have sub-par performance when using it with what is likely the most popular version of an accessory necessary for it to operate, I would take steps to tighten that tolerance to eliminate the problem, at least to the extent that doing so did not take it outside of whatever set of specs I needed to say it complied with...

Over the weekend I gathered up about 30 Gen M3s and tried them in a known tight lower that I have, that is tighter than the BCM I also have.

About half the Pmags would not drop free.

I have a box full (nearly 100) of Colt, Okay, and Brownells legit usgi mags and I tried about half of them and quit after no more than zero did not drop free.

I’m going to put the blame mostly on the mags.

[Phaedrus]

I use Lancer mags for "serious use*", and as backup a few stainless steel Okay mags. I have some Pmags that I keep for range use & plinking.


* I'm a chef not a SEAL so take this as you like.

[M2CattleCo]

Okay mags are aluminum.

[Phaedrus]

Yeah, brain fart. Mine are ASC; my bad!

[RancidSumo]

Weapon Outfitters has SOLGW steel mags for $15. I have no experience with them but I like the idea of steel mags for serious use (which for me is sitting in the safe as a "just in case" home defense gun, so not that serious) so I ordered 10. Hoping they work well.

[Default.mp3]

Weapon Outfitters has SOLGW steel mags for $15. I have no experience with them but I like the idea of steel mags for serious use (which for me is sitting in the safe as a "just in case" home defense gun, so not that serious) so I ordered 10. Hoping they work well.The SoLGW steelies are made by Duramag, which have not had the best of reputations; their lineage derives from the much maligned C-Products magazine line. I'll stress that I've not heard anything directly negative about them, aluminum or steel, as they're a relatively new company, but I don't really see the point of steel AR-15 mags, either; AFAIK, they're actually about as susceptible to damage to the feedlips when dropped as aluminum, due to the excess weight. I remember the H&K Maritime mags being much maligned, too, despite being steel and of high quality manufacturing.

[HCM]

I use Lancer mags for "serious use*", and as backup a few stainless steel Okay mags. I have some Pmags that I keep for range use & plinking.


* I'm a chef not a SEAL so take this as you like.


https://youtu.be/edBenUAZ2OQ

[RancidSumo]

The SoLGW steelies are made by Duramag, which have not had the best of reputations; their lineage derives from the much maligned C-Products magazine line. I'll stress that I've not heard anything directly negative about them, aluminum or steel, as they're a relatively new company, but I don't really see the point of steel AR-15 mags, either; AFAIK, they're actually about as susceptible to damage to the feedlips when dropped as aluminum, due to the excess weight. I remember the H&K Maritime mags being much maligned, too, despite being steel and of high quality manufacturing.

Well, shows what I know. I guess I just assumed quality from SOLGW.

[Phaedrus]

https://youtu.be/edBenUAZ2OQ

Well, I also cook!:o