I guess I made a couple USPSA guys mad

[SecondsCount]

I was talking to a friend today that shoots USPSA and he mentioned that I "made a couple guys mad."

He proceeded to tell me that after I mentioned the FAST drill to him, that he and a couple Grand Masters tried it and could not do better than 9 seconds, even after trying several times. I smiled and said "It's a tough one isn't it!" then proceeded to let him know that it is a proficiency drill, not a practice drill.

:cool:

[SLG]

As has been mentioned before, being a GM in USPSA, unfortunately, doesn't actually mean a whole lot about your overall shooting ability.

Having said that, I'd be VERY surprised to meet a GM (paper or otherwise) who couldn't shoot FAST in under 6 seconds.

[ToddG]

Having run a number of GMs through the test, in my experience most of them go faster than they can reliably guarantee 100% hits. The time penalty for poor accuracy is brutal on the FAST compared to IPSC scoring.

I'd agree with SLG, a GM who stops trying to beat Sevigny's record and instead shoots guaranteed hits for all six shots is certainly likely to turn in an Advanced score without breaking a sweat.

[SecondsCount]

No doubt that there are some quality USPSA shooters out there, my point was that the FAST drill is difficult. They made the same mistake many of us do and focus on the time rather than accuracy.

[SLG]

My mistake. You're saying they over revved their engines and racked up penalty time. I can see that, but after a run or two, surely they figured out to dial it back?

[JodyH]

If you really want to piss off some IPSC shooters shoot "Limited", "Unclassified" with a stock H&K P2000 9mm, including 13 round magazines.
Run it from full concealment, in my case it was AIWB from under a T-shirt.
Do all that and beat out everyone except the top 3 "Open" class shooters who happen to be an "A" and two "B's" in the overall match standings
If you win a stage that is a pure speed, draw to hit a low percentage target, it's icing on the cake.
The guys with race holsters and $5000 comped, RDS guns love it when you do that.
:cool:

[beltjones]

Yeah, I'm sure legit USPSA GM's who average sub one second draws, who regularly practice head shots at 35 yards, and who can hit sub one second reloads would really struggle with beating 9 seconds on the FAST drill. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I mean, let's not forget that the current record holder is also a USPSA GM, and that we can easily find videos of other GM's (Ben Stoeger, Mike Seeklander) shooting some pretty impressive times.

[beltjones]

If you really want to piss off some IPSC shooters shoot "Limited", "Unclassified" with a stock H&K P2000 9mm, including 13 round magazines.
Run it from full concealment, in my case it was AIWB from under a T-shirt.
Do all that and beat out everyone except the top 3 "Open" class shooters who happen to be an "A" and two "B's" in the overall match standings
If you win a stage that is a pure speed, draw to hit a low percentage target, it's icing on the cake.
The guys with race holsters and $5000 comped, RDS guns love it when you do that.
:cool:

What was the club and what was the date of the match? I'd be curious to see the match results on the USPSA website.

[jetfire]

Ditto the above. Especially since USPSA doesn't recognize mixed division results.

[joshs]

Especially since USPSA doesn't recognize mixed division results.

This is the official USPSA policy, but many clubs post overall results. The club where I used to shoot in NM, possibly where Jody is shooting, always posted overall results.

[JodyH]

We've always had a "combined divisions" results sheet.
WT09 is the club, but there are no results listed on the USPSA web site.
If you shoot much in west Texas you know 2 of the guys who beat me, Jordan and Terry Ohlman.

[jetfire]

Match results (http://www.leaactionshooters.com/results/Mar11.txt). Nice shooting! I'm kind of surprised at what a small match match it was, you'd think that West Texas would have a more robust action shooting community. We routinely get 60+ shooters for club level matches up here in the rainy NW.

[DeltaKilo]

Not sure I'm familiar with the FAST drill. What is it?

[MTechnik]

Not sure I'm familiar with the FAST drill. What is it?

http://pistol-training.com/drills/fast-fundamentals-accuracy-speed-test

it was made by some Todd Green guy... I don't know why he calls himself green, he seems to like Orange a lot.

[JodyH]

Match results (http://www.leaactionshooters.com/results/Mar11.txt). Nice shooting! I'm kind of surprised at what a small match match it was, you'd think that West Texas would have a more robust action shooting community. We routinely get 60+ shooters for club level matches up here in the rainy NW.
The weather was fricken cold and windy that day, hence the low turnout.
I don't know why I thought Terry was a B shooter.
I'd have done better but completely FUBAR'd the 5th stage with some crappy weak hand only shooting.

[jetfire]

Sounds like Tejas USPSA shooters need to HTFU. ;)

[LittleLebowski]

I am still at a loss to get an IDPA match going in NoVA. USPSA would be even better.

[jetfire]

When I lived in Herndon, there used to be an IDPA league at the NRA HQ range. It seems to have gone the way of the dodo, but I'd imagine that you'd be able to find enough shooters to get people involved in that. The problem with indoor leagues is you're limited on stage design, and most ranges don't want to do them when people are actually free (i.e. weekends) because that's when the range makes furious bank.

[SecondsCount]

Yeah, I'm sure legit USPSA GM's who average sub one second draws, who regularly practice head shots at 35 yards, and who can hit sub one second reloads would really struggle with beating 9 seconds on the FAST drill. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I mean, let's not forget that the current record holder is also a USPSA GM, and that we can easily find videos of other GM's (Ben Stoeger, Mike Seeklander) shooting some pretty impressive times.
Read post #4. I realize that there are some great USPSA shooters out there but this was a couple local guys who are GM's and couldn't make it happen. Since the FAST drill is testing several fundamental pistol skills, I assume it showed a flaw in one or more of their skills.

My guess is that they are trading speed for accuracy. I shot with this group once and made a ton of A zone hits but my speed was not there. One of the guys commented that if I am making a large percentage of A's then I am probably going too slow. Training for accurate hits with a defense mindset is more important to me but it was a good time and will probably do it again sometime.

[beltjones]

Who are the local GM's in Utah?

At the GM level if you're not shooting 95% of the available points at a match you're not going to win, and while attaining GM doesn't mean their fundamentals are perfect, it does mean they should have the fundamentals necessary to perform well on the FAST.

[JodyH]

Considering the FAST is shot from full concealment, there is more to it than just pure shooting skill.
There are a lot of high level shooters who never draw from concealment.
Heck I know a lot of high level shooters who don't even own a gun that they could conceal, much less a holster and are well practiced in clearing cover.
Another thing I've noticed is many of the top shooters aren't any faster or more accurate on the trigger than a good B shooter. Shaving .05 off of your splits and .15 off your draw doesn't add up to enough time over a stage to separate a B from a GM. Where the A's and GM's are smokin fast is how they move through a stage and engage targets.
The FAST is a stand and deliver test from concealment and I can totally see how someone who primarily shoots IPSC competition could flub it.

[SecondsCount]

OK guys, I need to apologize for some misinformation. I spoke to another friend that was there to confirm that some of the shooters were GM's. He told me that the highest ranking guy was a Master and the rest were C, D, and U...so no GM's were in the group.

[gtmtnbiker98]

OK guys, I need to apologize for some misinformation. I spoke to another friend that was there to confirm that some of the shooters were GM's. He told me that the highest ranking guy was a Master and the rest were C, D, and U...so no GM's were in the group.
Big difference.

[jetfire]

I'm kind of surprised that a USPSA Master Class shooter couldn't do it - I'm B-class in Single stack and I can manage sub-5 second runs in practice with my Single Stack rig (not from concealment).

[JodyH]

I can manage sub-5 second runs in practice with my Single Stack rig (not from concealment).
Now add in the draw from concealed and a reload from concealed and getting it done under 5 consistently is MUCH tougher.

[jetfire]

Drawing from my USPSA rig, I can usually get the 1st hit on the 3x5 card in around 1.4 or less seconds if I'm having a "good day". Good reloads are 1.8-1.9, and splits are around .25. I can run the splits down to .18-.20 but that increases the odds of tossing one of the body hits.

Most of those numbers don't come from shooting FAST itself, but from shooting drills where I'll draw to a 3x5 card at 7 yards, or do a 1-reload-4 drill on an 8 inch circle.

ETA: I'll run the same series of drills this evening from concealment using my IDPA CDP rig.

[ToddG]

ETA: I'll run the same series of drills this evening from concealment using my IDPA CDP rig.

So what you're saying is that you personally guarantee that you'll win a coin this weekend, is that what I'm reading? :cool::cool::cool:

No pressure!

[gtmtnbiker98]

So what you're saying is that you personally guarantee that you'll win a coin this weekend, is that what I'm reading? :cool::cool::cool:

No pressure!What it sounds like to me. Easily.

[jetfire]

So what you're saying is that you personally guarantee that you'll win a coin this weekend, is that what I'm reading? :cool::cool::cool:

No pressure!

/facepalm - I suppose I stuck my foot in it on that one.

I'm treating the chance to win a coin like I treat any skill test - my only goal is to perform to the maximum of my skill while remaining safe.

That being said, I am going to try my damnedest to win a coin.

[JodyH]

That being said, I am going to try my damnedest to win a coin.
Good luck.
My friendly advice is to get a good solid run in AM day 1, don't push for the coin just get a good, clean run in to get your confidence up.
Go for the coin day 1 PM, you'll be fully warmed up but not tired from two long days of shooting.
I screwed it all up by trying too hard, too soon.
In practice I was a solid low 5 shooter and if I pushed just a little I could turn out high 4's.
The best I could do in class was a mid-6 clean.
I managed a 4.85 day 2 PM, but threw a few shots just outside due to being tired and unfocused. By the end of day two you also have a lot of new techniques you're trying to incorporate so that messes with your mind.

[beltjones]

Considering the FAST is shot from full concealment, there is more to it than just pure shooting skill.
There are a lot of high level shooters who never draw from concealment.
Heck I know a lot of high level shooters who don't even own a gun that they could conceal, much less a holster and are well practiced in clearing cover.
Another thing I've noticed is many of the top shooters aren't any faster or more accurate on the trigger than a good B shooter. Shaving .05 off of your splits and .15 off your draw doesn't add up to enough time over a stage to separate a B from a GM. Where the A's and GM's are smokin fast is how they move through a stage and engage targets.
The FAST is a stand and deliver test from concealment and I can totally see how someone who primarily shoots IPSC competition could flub it.

Except that the classifier stages that bump those B shooters eventually to GM are by and large "stand and deliver" tests.

I totally agree on the added complexity of drawing from concealment, especially if we're talking about something other than the "shoot me first" IDPA vest. And if you take away an Limited M's 2011 and hand him a G19 he's going to suck for at least a few minutes. We can all agree with that.

However, considering that the OP first said it was a few GM's who couldn't complete a FAST drill in under 9 seconds, then said it was a D, a C, and an M, and so on, I'm not going to be too surprised if next he says it was really 6 seconds - and the M was drawing from an ankle holster.

[SecondsCount]

....

However, considering that the OP first said it was a few GM's who couldn't complete a FAST drill in under 9 seconds, then said it was a D, a C, and an M, and so on, I'm not going to be too surprised if next he says it was really 6 seconds - and the M was drawing from an ankle holster.
I said what was told to me by one individual and only changed my post after speaking to another individual who is much closer to the sport here. You seem to think that I am here to make fun of USPSA shooters, which I am not. There are many good USPSA shooters that could do well on the FAST drill but I found it interesting that this group struggled with it.

[cdunn]

I am still at a loss to get an IDPA match going in NoVA. USPSA would be even better.
I waiting to see if Todd is going to get matches going.

[jthhapkido]

There are many good USPSA shooters that could do well on the FAST drill but I found it interesting that this group struggled with it.

Why?

If they were GMs, that would indeed be interesting. (Quite frankly, I actually thought what you originally said was either a plain lie, or you were informed wrong.)

But later you said an M, and some Cs and Ds. Did they _all_ have trouble getting it below nine seconds? Or just the Cs and Ds? What times did the M actually get?

Your initial phrasing implied something fairly significant about USPSA competitors as a group. Then, after you changed what you said, it still says something interesting if a M-class shooter couldn't get less than 9 seconds. Did that actually happen? Or did just _some_ of the USPSA shooters have trouble?

Did they have trouble the whole time? Were they trying to improve? Did their times get better? Did they only try it once or twice, and then stop?

Your phrasing choice was interesting. As such, people found your later change of story interesting also.

Any other details you are able to add to make things more clear about what happened?

[beltjones]

The whole thing smacks of an "us vs. them" attitude, which is a real shame.

It's all part of this "my karate is better than your karate" nonsense that, if you actually care about getting better at shooting, you will drop.

It's just like back in the old TMA days, when guys at the dojo would regale each other with stories of the one guy they knew who totally beat up the BJJ black belt. It was always a lie told to preserve the egos of everyone who was too narrowminded to actually go cross train.

I've heard a million times how the USPSA GM's are only good at "gaming," and that their shooting skills are weak compared to _______ (insert the name of the tactical guru du jour). I've also seen a million times the tactical instructors be totally puzzled when they can't shoot as accurately as the upper-level USPSA guys.

It's all nonsense. Leave your ego at the door and go shoot. Shoot USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge, take classes from good instructors, push yourself beyond your current limits, dry fire every day, challenge preconceived notions of proper technique, and study the knowledge of everyone - above your level and below. That's the only way to get better at shooting.

Or you can stick with the "us vs. them" stuff and stagnate while those you thought were your buddies (one of "us") one by one become one of them.

[jetfire]

Dude, my sensei can totally kick your sensei's ass.

[jthhapkido]

Dude, my sensei can totally kick your sensei's ass.

That's not true! You don't even practice a Real Martial Art(tm)!

(sigh) Some types of arguments never change, do they?

[00bullitt]

I'll just say this. Obtaining the rank of GM is not just something that gets handed out. In the scheme of things. Out of a membership of 20,000 active members. There are only 425 active GM cards and that is respective to divisions. That means one person can hold more than one card to skew that number. I hold two. One in Production and one in Limited. I consider myself a good shooter. Dave Sevigny and Rob Leatham are great shooters as Phil Strader and Mike Seeklander and a host of others. when I shoot against Dave in a match. I do good to get 85% of the available points. I can shoot against a host of others and maintain 90% or better of the available points.

I'll also say that just because you are not a USPSA shooter and you don't hold a GM card does not mean you can not shoot the quality of those guys or vice versa. Todd Green does not have his GM card but he is every bit the shooter as one in my book. I don't think SLG holds one but I guarantee you he is every bit as good as or better than the majority of GM's out there. Bottom line....a good shooter is a good shooter.

I did not get my coin in the FAST. I can shoot that drill in the low 4's consistently. I just didn't hook up under the stress of the clock on my three runs. Some days your the chicken and some days your the feathers. do I ever think I can best Dave. Nope. And I don't try. I can't break below 4 unless I am without concealment. Dave doesn't just break 4....he shatters it. Now if I were to put my money on someone that I think can break Dave's record. I'd put my money on Ben Stoeger. The FAST is just the type of thing he shines at.

This whole rank structure is related to the organization to which the game is played. Is it a valid representation of skill. For the most part it is. A GM knows how to basically operate at high speed accurately. Proper fundamentals are required to accomplish that.

I personally use competition as a tool to improve my skill as a whole with a handgun, rifle or shotgun. Does it work....hell yeah it works. Is it valid in the real world. Some will argue, but I'm of the opinion that hell yeah it does.
Its an enjoyable way to improve your skill while comaradarizing with friends and some like minded individuals.

I just felt like chiming in because it does routinely feel like an us versus them. Well...I'm us that plays with them on a regular basis.

Anyway, just my .02

[DonovanM]

Now if I were to put my money on someone that I think can break Dave's record. I'd put my money on Ben Stoeger. The FAST is just the type of thing he shines at.

If I could put my money on one person being able to beat the record, I would put it on TGO (Rob Leatham). Just because he has bad knees doesn't mean he can't stand and deliver :D

(Congrats on the GM card, by the way)

[beltjones]

Now this is getting interesting!

Try getting TGO to wear a concealment garment... That's a tall order.

Ben Stoeger is a good candidate to beat Sevigny's record.

But, if I had to pick anyone who I think could do it, I'd put my money on Taran Butler. He shoots IDPA which means he at least owns a fishing vest, and he's a raging speed freak who loves to burn everything down.

Of course, given the way Sevigny is shooting lately if anyone beats the record I think it would take Dave about a week to find time to set up a camcorder and reclaim the title.

[00bullitt]

Now this is getting interesting!

Try getting TGO to wear a concealment garment... That's a tall order.

Ben Stoeger is a good candidate to beat Sevigny's record.

But, if I had to pick anyone who I think could do it, I'd put my money on Taran Butler. He shoots IDPA which means he at least owns a fishing vest, and he's a raging speed freak who loves to burn everything down.

Of course, given the way Sevigny is shooting lately if anyone beats the record I think it would take Dave about a week to find time to set up a camcorder and reclaim the title.

Robbie has shot IDPA on many occasions. I think Robbie could make a good run at it as I do Taran, Daniel Horner, and Rob Vogel.

There are a handful of shooters who possess the skill to just flat out burn the FAST down and do it cold which is the key. Unfortunately Todd is not going to allow video submissions from everyone.

Personally I think the fastest that the FAST can be run is 3.30

[KeeFus]

I think Vogel could could give Sevigny a run right now. He's been on fire lately and his points down have been low.

[DonovanM]

So it's decided then, at the next meeting of the greatest stock gun shooters in the world, I'll bring up the topic of the FAST record :D

[Prdator]

Well we'll find out about one GM as Mike Seeklander is coming to the OKC Appendix Carry Workshop this month. I doubt that he'll beat Daves record but he may post a new one from AIWB though. In conversation with him (Mike) he said that winning a coin from AIWB is Never a given thing!!!

[KeeFus]

Well we'll find out about one GM as Mike Seeklander is coming to the OKC Appendix Carry Workshop this month. I doubt that he'll beat Daves record but he may post a new one from AIWB though. In conversation with him (Mike) he said that winning a coin from AIWB is Never a given thing!!!

Mike Seeklander FAST:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Qgbr3o1bE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0zs1bGWBNY&feature=related

[SLG]

In conversation with him (Mike) he said that winning a coin from AIWB is Never a given thing!!!

I know Mike, and respect him as a shooter, but this quote makes absolutely no sense to me. Maybe it's not quite correct. Though winning a coin is never a given, AIWB really isn't a factor, anymore than any other holster.

[Prdator]

I know Mike, and respect him as a shooter, but this quote makes absolutely no sense to me. Maybe it's not quite correct. Though winning a coin is never a given, AIWB really isn't a factor, anymore than any other holster.

IIRC it was in the context of comparing a "IDPA" rig vs AIWB, and from a IDPA rig winning a coin would be a 100% thing vs say 99% ish from AIWB, ( for Mike).
We'll know here the end of this month.