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View Full Version : AIWB now legal in all divisions? (Poll Only Thread)



RJ
03-20-2021, 05:55 PM
This is a poll-only thread for the current hot topic AIWB now legal in all divisions?.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?47136-AIWB-now-legal-in-all-divisions

Very simple: Do you agree or disagree with the rules changes? Scale of 1 (strong disagree) to 5 (strong agree).

Intent is not really to dilute the discussion of the rules, but Im very interested in where the membership ends up on this.

olstyn
03-20-2021, 06:25 PM
I guess "neither agree nor disagree" is the right option for me, since I like the changes to the gear placement rules but after having had some time to think about it, I dislike the flashlight stuff for a couple of reasons, and I tend to agree with those who think the process by which rule changes over the last few years have occurred is not good. (Also, 59 ounce "Production" guns are a patently absurd concept.)

Eyesquared
03-20-2021, 07:14 PM
Overall I'd give it a 2 (disagree).

Broken out:
Mag pouch and holster placement: 3 (don't really care either way)
Magnets: 5 (doesn't really affect me either way since magnets can be cheap and it brings the rules closer to IPSC which seems better than continually diverging)
Flashlights: 1 (way too many unintended consequences on this one)
SS weight change: 5 (change seems perfectly reasonable to me, but also single-stack is not really my thing)

JCN
03-20-2021, 07:37 PM
I'm firmly in the "meh" category (I guess 3 then?).

I don't expect to have any say in gaming rules, I'll show up no matter what and whatever the rules change to I'll adapt.

Personally, I like the rules as it gives CO and Production a little more advantage in the HHF compared to recently... might mean I can hit the next classification a little earlier....

Bucky
03-21-2021, 06:20 AM
Agree with some, disagree with others. Mostly agree with relaxing the holster position rules, dont agree with the continued transition of production to DA/Open.

CleverNickname
03-22-2021, 06:18 PM
I don't really mind but if none of the rule changes had been made I really wouldn't have missed them either.

Clusterfrack
03-23-2021, 10:20 PM
Leave Production alone. It works.

JCN
03-23-2021, 10:29 PM
Leave Production alone. It works.

Production is the new Revo. :D

RJ
03-24-2021, 06:42 AM
Heh - 24 votes in and a perfect bell curve.

If this is representative of USPSA shooters, it looks like most don't have strong feelings either way about these rules changes.

olstyn
03-24-2021, 07:17 AM
Heh - 24 votes in and a perfect bell curve.

If this is representative of USPSA shooters, it looks like most don't have strong feelings either way about these rules changes.

I wonder if the results would have been significantly different if it had been separate polls on a per-rule basis, plus one for the process by which the changes occurred. That would definitely have resulted in different voting from me, at least.

Cory
03-24-2021, 07:58 AM
I voted mods here are the shit. Just to even the curve.

Bucky
03-24-2021, 08:34 AM
I wonder if the results would have been significantly different if it had been separate polls on a per-rule basis, plus one for the process by which the changes occurred. That would definitely have resulted in different voting from me, at least.

Yes.

cheby
03-24-2021, 12:07 PM
I wonder if the results would have been significantly different if it had been separate polls on a per-rule basis, plus one for the process by which the changes occurred. That would definitely have resulted in different voting from me, at least.
The results would be also significantly different if this was a competition forum, not tactical. Different folks

olstyn
03-24-2021, 12:11 PM
The results would be also significantly different if this was a competition forum, not tactical. Different folks

I've never really viewed this forum as specifically tactical, competition, or other so much as a reasonable place where people from all of those worlds mix. That doesn't really change your point much, though.

cheby
03-24-2021, 12:34 PM
I've never really viewed this forum as specifically tactical, competition, or other so much as a reasonable place where people from all of those worlds mix. That doesn't really change your point much, though.

In my view, this is totally a tactical forum. For years, there's been nonstop debates here about how bad competition is for your tactical skills. Majority people here don't even know the difference between IPSC and USPSA. Most people here don't compete. I have been here since 2013. This is not to say anything negative. Pistol forum is one of the best gun forums out there. A lot of useful information. Competition, however, and high level marksmanship in general are not the strongest topics here. That's okay.

JCN
03-24-2021, 02:32 PM
I've never really viewed this forum as specifically tactical, competition, or other so much as a reasonable place where people from all of those worlds mix. That doesn't really change your point much, though.


In my view, this is totally a tactical forum. For years, there's been nonstop debates here about how bad competition is for your tactical skills. Majority people here don't even know the difference between IPSC and USPSA. Most people here don't compete. I have been here since 2013. This is not to say anything negative. Pistol forum is one of the best gun forums out there. A lot of useful information. Competition, however, and high level marksmanship in general are not the strongest topics here. That's okay.

I also don't think this forum is a valid representative pool of the average USPSA competitor across the nation either.
There are a LOT of social USPSA shooters that never practice and don't care about their competitiveness.

It must be incredibly hard for the leadership to make decisions when the vocal minority of top competitors likely doesn't represent the majority of the paying and attending base.

And while the vocal minority might bitch the loudest, they'll keep coming no matter the rules changes.

It's the fair weather people whose attendance probably is the most variable with changing rulesets.

cheby
03-24-2021, 02:45 PM
I also don't think this forum is a valid representative pool of the average USPSA competitor across the nation either.
There are a LOT of social USPSA shooters that never practice and don't care about their competitiveness.

It must be incredibly hard for the leadership to make decisions when the vocal minority of top competitors likely doesn't represent the majority of the paying and attending base.

And while the vocal minority might bitch the loudest, they'll keep coming no matter the rules changes.

It's the fair weather people whose attendance probably is the most variable with changing rulesets.

Yep, these are two different strategies. 1st is how to take the sport and skills to the next level. 2nd is how to have fun on weekends because "shooting is fun".... BTW competition shooting is not fun. It's a hard, exhausting work especially when resources and time are limited, when you have to overcome injuries, age, and family obligations.... And that's why we love it. If it was easy, I'd pick up something else.

RJ
03-24-2021, 02:45 PM
Heh - 24 votes in and a perfect bell curve.

If this is representative of USPSA shooters, it looks like most don't have strong feelings either way about these rules changes.

Up to 30 voters, and still a perfect Bell curve (less the two suck-ups, of course. :) )

olstyn
03-24-2021, 04:11 PM
BTW competition shooting is not fun. It's a hard, exhausting work

Hard work and fun are not in any way mutually exclusive.

JCN
03-24-2021, 04:21 PM
Yep, these are two different strategies. 1st is how to take the sport and skills to the next level. 2nd is how to have fun on weekends because "shooting is fun".... BTW competition shooting is not fun. It's a hard, exhausting work especially when resources and time are limited, when you have to overcome injuries, age, and family obligations.... And that's why we love it. If it was easy, I'd pick up something else.

I've heard pro golfers on the PGA tour talk about the feeling of "grinding" day in and day out. That kind of seems like what you're talking about at the highest level.

At least at my level (M), I still see myself as enjoying a casual hobby. I find practice and shooting meditative and restorative even though it's not easy. And I get to do it with a squad of friends and like-minded people who are awesome human beings.

I'm still working on #1 and balancing it with #2. In our local region, there seem to be a lot of people in that boat at the high-A through M level that are working on their game but still balancing the fun factor.

cheby
03-24-2021, 04:56 PM
I've heard pro golfers on the PGA tour talk about the feeling of "grinding" day in and day out. That kind of seems like what you're talking about at the highest level.

At least at my level (M), I still see myself as enjoying a casual hobby. I find practice and shooting meditative and restorative even though it's not easy. And I get to do it with a squad of friends and like-minded people who are awesome human beings.

I'm still working on #1 and balancing it with #2. In our local region, there seem to be a lot of people in that boat at the high-A through M level that are working on their game but still balancing the fun factor.

My wife used to be a member of the Olympic team and a professional athlete for a long time. She is still extremely athletic. I tried to talk her into shooting with me. She told me that she was mentally exhausted from competition after all those years and couldn't do it anymore. She told me that would be impossible for her to casually participate in it. I totally understand her. I personally know a couple guys who quit completely because they couldn't find the time anymore to train as much as needed and they didn't want to casually fuck around once in a while...

I try to remove my ego from the process and it's not easy. Interestingly my performance is always better when I am able to do that. I was not able to train for over 7 months because of the new job and then my hand injury. My first match after that was actually better than I expected because I had no expectations. The second one was a train wreck because of "I got it " mentality. I did shoot a classifier at 95% last Sunday perhaps because I finally practiced on Saturday or most likely because it was a low key match with no pressure and I got lucky. Anyways it feels good to be back.

GNiner
03-25-2021, 07:02 AM
USPSA has always been touted as the only sport where amateurs could play alongside the pros. Maybe that needs to change. You can't play basketball with LeBron James or baseball with Derek Jeter. Maybe the upper levels of the sport, say A, M, and GM should be considered the "Majors" and have tighter rule sets. The D,C,B classes could have looser rule sets to encourage entry into the sport (the Minor leagues). The "Major" matches could be limited to A through GM only, especially Nationals. This would relieve the crowding at the majors. Occasional large "Pro-Am" matches where you could rub elbows with the Rob Leathams and Mason Lanes of the world. I never understood why D and C class shooters were allowed at Nationals, potentially crowding out much better shooters.

Clusterfrack
03-25-2021, 09:50 AM
USPSA has always been touted as the only sport where amateurs could play alongside the pros. Maybe that needs to change. You can't play basketball with LeBron James or baseball with Derek Jeter. Maybe the upper levels of the sport, say A, M, and GM should be considered the "Majors" and have tighter rule sets. The D,C,B classes could have looser rule sets to encourage entry into the sport (the Minor leagues). The "Major" matches could be limited to A through GM only, especially Nationals. This would relieve the crowding at the majors. Occasional large "Pro-Am" matches where you could rub elbows with the Rob Leathams and Mason Lanes of the world. I never understood why D and C class shooters were allowed at Nationals, potentially crowding out much better shooters.

I would not support that. I gladly share the squad at Majors with new, or not-so new D/C/B class folks. As long as a shooter takes the game seriously, I don't care what level they are.

Similarly, it's a treat to squad with a pro now and then.

RJ
03-25-2021, 10:37 AM
I would not support that. I gladly share the squad at Majors with new, or not-so new D/C/B class folks. As long as a shooter takes the game seriously, I don't care what level they are.

Similarly, it's a treat to squad with a pro now and then.

Ditto.

My third or fourth match, I contacted Gabe, who got me squadded up with him at the Sectional Match in Dundee OR in 2017. I had fun, but probably slowed the whole group down. Everyone was very helpful though, and I learned quite a bit.

RJ
03-25-2021, 10:44 AM
I wonder if the results would have been significantly different if it had been separate polls on a per-rule basis, plus one for the process by which the changes occurred. That would definitely have resulted in different voting from me, at least.

No. I'm thinking anyone who had strong feelings, would have them formed by one or more of the rules changes. If you didn't like a particular rule change, you'd vote strongly disagree. If you really liked one, you'd vote strongly agree. So no, I don't think anything really would change. But who knows.

As to the results, I had no idea what to expect. I am really not sure what to make of the almost perfect Bell curve of the results. The Central Limit Theorem predicts this is what you get with multiple identically distributed outcomes, adding them together ends up in a Normal distribution. As to what that means, I dunno.

Ok here's an idea, how about a poll, in which each of the rules changes are enumerated, and people can vote, which one they feel strongest about (positive or negative)? Now that might be interesting, to see if there is a single issue which stands out to point to where the sturm and drang of the main thread lies.

Clusterfrack
03-25-2021, 10:46 AM
Ditto.

My third or fourth match, I contacted Gabe, who got me squadded up with him at the Sectional Match in Dundee OR in 2017. I had fun, but probably slowed the whole group down. Everyone was very helpful though, and I learned quite a bit.

CCS 2017 was a good match, and it's cool that Gabe took 1st shooting Lim Minor from concealment. As a new shooter at the time, you didn't slow the group down by shooting 20s slower on stages than some shooters. I'm sure that was balanced by the 20s 'make ready' for some of the other shooters.

olstyn
03-25-2021, 11:28 AM
No. I'm thinking anyone who had strong feelings, would have them formed by one or more of the rules changes.

All I can really say is that this was not the way it worked for me, so I don't think your assumption is completely valid. I personally took the rough average of my feelings and voted based on that. I strongly like the gear position rule changes, am "meh" to maybe dislike on the flashlight stuff, strongly dislike the absurdly high weight limit in Production, and dislike the way the rule changes occurred. That led me to the middle of the road/neither agree nor disagree vote that I submitted.

RJ
03-25-2021, 04:01 PM
All I can really say is that this was not the way it worked for me, so I don't think your assumption is completely valid. I personally took the rough average of my feelings and voted based on that. I strongly like the gear position rule changes, am "meh" to maybe dislike on the flashlight stuff, strongly dislike the absurdly high weight limit in Production, and dislike the way the rule changes occurred. That led me to the middle of the road/neither agree nor disagree vote that I submitted.

Fair enough.

RJ
03-25-2021, 04:03 PM
CCS 2017 was a good match, and it's cool that Gabe took 1st shooting Lim Minor from concealment. As a new shooter at the time, you didn't slow the group down by shooting 20s slower on stages than some shooters. I'm sure that was balanced by the 20s 'make ready' for some of the other shooters.

Woah! Were you at Dundee in 2017? I completely missed that if so, or I don't remember (there were a lot of people there lol). Damn it was pretty hot for Oregon though. Gabe made a video of me at the match that I watch now and cringe. Geez I can't believe how slow I was.

Anyway, back to the poll. :)