Balance: Speed and accuracy. Advice needed.

[Kimura]

I have a Glock 17, Sig P226 and access to an HK USP 9. Inside of seven yards, all three guns get about the same accuracy in my hands. My first shot time is quicker with a Glock by about .5 of a second, but if I'm running a five shot drill or even sometimes inside of a three shot drill, I can make that time up very quickly with the SA of either of the other two pistols. Just as a reference, I shot two rounds, with the Glock, into a 3X5 card today, cold and my time was 3.35 seconds which is around normal for me because I have a fairly slow draw.

Between 7-15 yards, accuracy is still close at this distance, but the HK shows to be more accurate than the Sig, which is more accurate than the Glock. It isn't by a big margin, but it's enough for me to see it.

At 25 yards, I'm woefully inconsistent. With both the Sig and HK, I've shot 3" and under groups. I can't do it consistently or on demand, but I've done it more than once though, so I know it's possible. With the Glock, which I actually enjoy shooting more than the others, not even close.

I can shoot DA/SA, but it isn't my favorite. I prefer a SF trigger to DA/SA and even to SA only sometimes. LEM is an option, but where I live, getting LEM is possible, but it's like pulling teeth from a donkey; which is to say difficult. And trying one is nearly impossible because there aren't many around.

I'm not exactly sure what to do here. It's harder than "choose the one I shoot best" because when I include time in the equation, it's not quite as simple as an accuracy only challenge. Btw, I'm not emotionally attached to any gun, just unsure what direction to take. Any advice would be much appreciated.

[GJM]

Commit to one of them, it really doesn't matter which one, for a meaningful period of time, and learn to shoot that platform through instruction, competition, live and dry fire practice. In six months or a year, evaluate whether you would be better off sticking with your chosen platform or switching -- by then you will have more shooting skill that is earned through your hard effort, and can't be just bought, that can then be applied to whatever you want to shoot.

Ideally whichever platform you pick, you will have at least two of those pistols, so you have a "shooter" pistol that you can put a high round count on, and a carry gun that is verified accurate but has a modest round count on it.

[YVK]

Commit to one of them, it really doesn't matter which one, for a meaningful period of time, and learn to shoot that platform through ...

What have this forum done to you, mi amigo GKR, I mean DocGJM, damn I am not even sure which one is posting this...
I am sending a med-evac LifeFlight chopper. We'll be shooting many guns, all guns that we can get our hands on, so you can regain your identity back..
:D:D:D

Kimura, while you said it isn't accuracy only, most data you've provided was about accuracy (yes, I noticed some stuff about time). Perhaps running a bit more comprehensive eval, accuracy close and far, speed close and far, one handed stuff. I can speed-reload Sig worth a damn with a disclaimer I don't even own one, and my reloads suck in general; how are yours? I also can't get Sig to lock back at all without very slow deliberate thumb positioning.
Just a bit more comprehensive understanding of definition "better".

[Kimura]

Gentlemen, First thank you for your responses. GJM, I understand what you're saying and have heard that from others as well. If I may ask a quick question; like most, I also spend time running a shotgun and an AR. Now, usually the reason for suggesting one gun is, well, one gun. Getting familiar with it; however, I've always wondered, if you run something other than handguns, do you think that it nullifies the benefits of running one pistol all the time?

YVK, I wasn't trying to say one is better, though I understand your point about an all around eval. And it's a good one as you are right and I need to start looking at every part of everything and everything as a whole.

[GJM]

Gentlemen, First thank you for your responses. GJM, I understand what you're saying and have heard that from others as well. If I may ask a quick question; like most, I also spend time running a shotgun and an AR. Now, usually the reason for suggesting one gun is, well, one gun. Getting familiar with it; however, I've always wondered, if you run something other than handguns, do you think that it nullifies the benefits of running one pistol all the time?


I think "nullifies" is too black and white. Consider two ends of the spectrum -- on one end, a guy practices regularly with his Glock 17, using the same holster, and on the other end of the spectrum, a guy shows up at the range with six different platform pistols, and a different style holster for each platform. My belief is that the guy focusing on software, not hardware, is likely to make the most progress in improving his shooting skills, where the guy with six platforms is likely trying to figure out how to manipulate each platform, and decide which he shoots today, and likes today.

Following a 80/20 rule, I spend the most time practicing my handgun skills, but when the bears wake up in Alaska, I shoot slugs thru the shotgun for refam, and as different hunting seasons arrive, I shoot my bolt guns specific to the species I am hunting. If I spent equal amounts of time on shotgun and rifle as handgun, my handgun skills would suffer. If I were heading to a place where my AR was my primary, I would likely flip that 80/20 from handgun to carbine. All about trade offs, priorities, time available and interest.

[okie john]

Commit to one of them, it really doesn't matter which one, for a meaningful period of time, and learn to shoot that platform through instruction, competition, live and dry fire practice.

Excellent advice.

I've spent a lot of time and money chasing pistol accuracy in the last couple of years. Settling on one good pistol is the foundation. From there, first and cheapest improvement you can make is to find a load that it shoots well. Some FMJ practice ammo (not always the cheapest) won't group well in it at all. Other ammo (not always the most expensive) may be very accurate. Find the load your pistol shoots best and buy a bunch of it. 2-3k rounds is a good start, and don't wait until you get low to restock.

Second, get good sights. There are a million opinions on which ones are good.

Third, zero your sights. The preference among special operations types seems to be dead on at 25m, but 15-20m might work better for mere mortals. Shoot several 10-shot groups on several successive range trips to confirm your zero.

These three things will put you head and shoulders above most shooters, and they're really not expensive. From there you can work on speed knowing that you've got the mechanical side nailed down.


Okie John

[David Armstrong]

Ordinarily I say there really isn't enough of a difference to matter, find something you like and stick with it, etc. But in this case I noticed you said:

My first shot time is quicker with a Glock by about .5 of a second,
To me, a .5 second difference on first shot time is significant enough that I'd stay with the Glock.

[Kimura]

Excellent advice.

I've spent a lot of time and money chasing pistol accuracy in the last couple of years. Settling on one good pistol is the foundation. From there, first and cheapest improvement you can make is to find a load that it shoots well. Some FMJ practice ammo (not always the cheapest) won't group well in it at all. Other ammo (not always the most expensive) may be very accurate. Find the load your pistol shoots best and buy a bunch of it. 2-3k rounds is a good start, and don't wait until you get low to restock.

Second, get good sights. There are a million opinions on which ones are good.

Third, zero your sights. The preference among special operations types seems to be dead on at 25m, but 15-20m might work better for mere mortals. Shoot several 10-shot groups on several successive range trips to confirm your zero.

These three things will put you head and shoulders above most shooters, and they're really not expensive. From there you can work on speed knowing that you've got the mechanical side nailed down.


Okie John

Thanks for the advice. I'm actually about to order another 1000 rounds of ammo. Been shooting Federal American Eagle 124Gr. I think this time I'm going to try some S&B and see how that works.

Currently the Glock has Trijicon sights on it. I'm going to order a taller front sight from Ameriglo for the gun as it seems to shoot high at 25 yards. Since I don't shoot the Sig high or the HK or even the Beretta I test shot for someone the other day, I'm guessing the Glock needs a taller front sight. And I haven't bought one to this point because I always hesitate to blame the gun. Everyone does that and they're usually wrong; so I don't use the gun as a crutch if I shoot poorly.


Ordinarily I say there really isn't enough of a difference to matter, find something you like and stick with it, etc. But in this case I noticed you said:

To me, a .5 second difference on first shot time is significant enough that I'd stay with the Glock.

Yes sir, it is significant. In defense of the Sig, I shoot the Glock more because I enjoy it more, so that's part of the reason. And as we're all aware, DA/SA is a difficult pistol to shoot unless you stay on top of it and I admit that I do not. Not to the point of fine tuning my times anyway. I will say this though, both my Sig and the Hk I have access to are dead accurate. As I've worked more on my speed, I really like drive the dot sighting.


Thank you Gentlemen.

[okie john]

Thanks for the advice. I'm actually about to order another 1000 rounds of ammo. Been shooting Federal American Eagle 124Gr. I think this time I'm going to try some S&B and see how that works.

If you spend that same amount of money on 12-15 different types of ammo and test it side by side at 20 yards or further, then you stand to learn a LOT about 9mm FMJ ammo. But I've found that 115-grain S&B is pretty good stuff.


Currently the Glock has Trijicon sights on it. I'm going to order a taller front sight from Ameriglo for the gun as it seems to shoot high at 25 yards.

Don't order a new front sight until you settle on a load. In testing the 12-15 types of ammo as described above, I found that POI for different loads is all over the place, both in windage and in elevation. (This is also when I went to adjustable sights on most of my Glocks.) Your pistol may hit where it should with the load you finally choose.


Okie John

[Sal Picante]

What kind of accuracy are you trying to get at 7-15 yards? Ie, what is your criteria of "accuracy"?

Almost any serviceable pistol is capable of shooting tight groups at 7-15 yards.

If you can shoot the Glock better, stick with it for a while.

[Kimura]

What kind of accuracy are you trying to get at 7-15 yards? Ie, what is your criteria of "accuracy"?

Almost any serviceable pistol is capable of shooting tight groups at 7-15 yards.

If you can shoot the Glock better, stick with it for a while.

Sorry, it took me awhile to get back here. At 5 and 7 yards I regularly practice shooting 2"circles and can do so on a regular basis. At 15, my groups are usually 2-2.5 inches. That's with the Glock. As I mentioned earlier, with the Sig or HK, groups are a little smaller at every distance. 25 yards is the only distance that I'm questioning the Glock's accuracy. One handed strong hand is about the same for every pistol, but one handed weak handed shooting is more difficult for me with the 10lb first shot trigger pull of a sig or hk vs the 5lbs of a Glock. It's a give to a get.

I've only run Federal 124gr FMJ and Winchester whitebox 115 through it and it it doesn't like the Federal at 25 and liked the whitebox less at every distance. I went back and read some of John's posts on M4carbine, so I have an idea of worked for him and what didn't; and am just starting down that road. And while every pistol seems to have an ammo preference the Sig and HK seem to be less effected by ammo type as compared to my Glock. But, I'm not willing to, nor am I the type to blame the pistol. It could easily be that I just don't shoot it as well as I would like. As in a flaw in my shooting.