Win 70 or R 700 .223 for a beginner “precision” rifle?

[awp_101]

I’m looking at 2 rifles to get my feet wet in the precision rifle world. This will be just me and targets at 100 and 200 yards. Not BR or PRS, not even the monthly BR match my club puts on unless I just happen to be there and I’m feeling froggy. My immediate goal to work towards is 1 MOA at 100 and 200 yards.

The one I’m most interested in is a lightly used late model Model 70 Varmint Heavy Barrel (2002-2006 production of I’m understanding the sn sequence correctly). The second is a LNIB late production R700 Varmint. Both have 26” tubes and H-S style plastic stocks.

I know the 700 has tons more aftermarket support across the board and in this case is ~$200 cheaper. What’s driving me towards the Winchester is it’s supposed to have a 9 twist as opposed to the 12 of the Remington. All of my shooting is going to be from the bench at paper or steel out to 200. The chances of getting out farther are very slim and almost none.

I know the 12 is probably limited to 55gr and under which means wind calls are going to be muy importante. What I’d like to know is, as an infrequent rifle shooter am I severely handicapping myself by going with the 12 twist and lighter bullets at the ranges I have access to?

Thanks!

[LittleLebowski]

If you’re dead certain you’re not gonna get the upgrade bug, M70. They’re great guns.

[okie john]

The one I’m most interested in is a lightly used late model Model 70 Varmint Heavy Barrel (2002-2006 production of I’m understanding the sn sequence correctly). The second is a LNIB late production R700 Varmint. Both have 26” tubes and H-S style plastic stocks.

Not sure what your budget is, but I'd take a long, hard look at a Tikka T3x.


Okie John

[Borderland]

I don't know those two rifles so I'll stick to twist rates.

I think the 1/12 twist barrel has some disadvantages because the best accuracy will be with 45 grn bullets. 1/9 is the sweet spot for cheap ammo using 55-62 grn bullets.

There isn't anything wrong with 1/12 if all you want to do is punch paper at 200 yds. but I think you're kind a locking yourself in with 1/12 regarding ammo.

Edit

I feel the same way about 1/7 which a lot of AR's come with these days.

[Wise_A]

Flat-out don't buy that Remington. Speaking from experience, the 1:12 twist is not worth it. If you decide later that you want a more customized or upgraded rifle, you'll also probably be in the market for a new cartridge, have a real preference for barrel, and possibly be interested in a custom action. Either way, Remington 700 actions with .308 bolt faces are thick on the ground.

I would second the recommendation on the Tikka. IIRC, all the Tikka T3Xs in .223 come with a more versatile 1:8" twist, which should be good for everything from 55-grain bulk ammo to 62-66-grain match. The real star of the show, however, is the buttery-smooth Tikka action. I also think you're a lot more likely to draw a real shooter with Tikka than with Remington.

I'll put it this way: I own both a Remington 700 Varmint in .223, and a Savage 12 LRP in 6.5CM, and I am recommending the Tikka to you.

[awp_101]

If you’re dead certain you’re not gonna get the upgrade bug, M70. They’re great guns.
I've actually thought about that because I know I have minimal resistance to the upgrade fairy. When I'm ready to upgrade the original rifle it will be time for a Nucleus 2.0 or Stiller. If I'm going to throw away everything but the action screws when rebuilding or upgrading the first rifle, I might as well start fresh so the lack of options for the M70 doesn't bother me as much as it normally would.


Not sure what your budget is, but I'd take a long, hard look at a Tikka T3x.
I'm a Tikka fan but .223s have been hard to track down the past couple of months unless I want to get into a bidding war, which I don't. If this was 18 months ago this would probably be a "look at this new Tikka I just got!" thread.

[cornstalker]

I would get the M70 based on the twist alone. If you handload, I would start with 69 grain Sierra Matchkings.

Good job catching the slow twist in the Remington.

[cornstalker]

There are a lot of good quality match-grade bullets in the 52-55 grain range. Maybe not the end of the world to go with Remington if you like the rifle better. I would tend to err on the side of versatility. You never know when you are going to end up with a finicky barrel, so I feel the more bullet options the better. In my opinion, the option to dabble in the 68-70 grain range would be nice to have.

[Duelist]

I would buy the M70 because I will like the action better, and would find the 1:9 rate more useful and versatile, if I were inclined to get a 26” .223 precision rifle.

[SecondsCount]

At 100-200 yards, it isn't going to make much difference. If you decide to shoot further out, go with the 1:9 with 69 grain bullets or the 70 RDF.

I second the Tikka suggestion. 1:8 will stabilize the longer high BC bullets like a 77 TMK, 75 ELD, and you can get to 1000 with those.

[Nephrology]

To throw a wrench in things... my first AR was a 20" RRA Predator Pursuit. It is a tack driver and the rifles and complete uppers can often be found for cheap, particularly the older ones with slick FF tubes or other not-so-tactical features. They come with 1:8 air gauged 223 wylde barrels made by Wilson. Mine does pretty well 55gr ammo though it seems happiest with 62gr.

A gas gun probably will not be as accurate as a bolt rifle and may be a little pricier... but with a soft shooting round like .223, shooting a semi auto through a scope is pretty fun. No need to break your cheekweld/grip to throw the bolt so follow up shots are fast.

Otherwise I was considering a Howa 20" varmint 223 bolt gun once upon a time. They have a 1:9 twist barrel iirc. Worth looking into.

[awp_101]

I’ve actually got a White Oak Armament competition upper on the way. It was a good deal so it should be here next week. :D

Found out the M70 I had my eye on has already sold. Any thoughts on Bergara?

[SecondsCount]

Bergara has a good reputation. Their HMR Pro in 223 has a 1:8 twist.

[Wise_A]

Bergara is a Remington 700 without all the Remington. Fits most stocks, takes most triggers. Swapping barrels is kind've wonky--the last I checked, they don't take a Remage conversion, but Bergara will rebarrel your gun for something like $500 or $600 with a warranty and a test target.

I think my main objection to them is that they're the pumpkin spice latte of rifles--slap a Vortex PST II on one and you run the risk of not being able to pick your rifle off of the rack. But there's a reason they're so popular.

[TOTS]

+1. I can’t add to much as I very much agree with the others. I’m a fan of the Bergera rifles.

I took the Tikka advice about a month ago and I couldn’t be happier. 8 twist. I watched gunbroke for about a week and hit the buy-it-now button. Just search for “Tikka .223”. Mine shoots EVERYTHING sub MOA. I mean everything. I literally found six rounds of mixed manufacturers laying in the brass bin at my range and loaded them up. My sis-n-law who has never shot a rifle before put 4 in a .8 in group. The other two didn’t light off.

Additional thoughts: maybe look into something you can sell easily when you are done if this isn’t a long term rifle. Also buy with ammo availability in mind. Will you be able to source .223? Or do you need to get something that handles 5.56 as well?

Also, at first I thought.223 diminutive after only being interested in .308 or 6.5 calibers. But, man, I’m having a blast shooting .223!

[cornstalker]

I am very pleased with both of my Bergaras. I wish they made a .223 in a B14 action. If they made a B14 HMR in .223 I would definitely have one. Maybe one day I will pony up for a Premier.

[Borderland]

To throw a wrench in things... my first AR was a 20" RRA Predator Pursuit. It is a tack driver and the rifles and complete uppers can often be found for cheap, particularly the older ones with slick FF tubes or other not-so-tactical features. They come with 1:8 air gauged 223 wylde barrels made by Wilson. Mine does pretty well 55gr ammo though it seems happiest with 62gr.

A gas gun probably will not be as accurate as a bolt rifle and may be a little pricier... but with a soft shooting round like .223, shooting a semi auto through a scope is pretty fun. No need to break your cheekweld/grip to throw the bolt so follow up shots are fast.

Otherwise I was considering a Howa 20" varmint 223 bolt gun once upon a time. They have a 1:9 twist barrel iirc. Worth looking into.

Not exactly the varmint rifle you mentioned, but close. That's a 1500 HB .223 with a B&C stock. It's a real nice shooter. :D


https://i.ibb.co/CB62Xnw/P1020251.jpg (https://ibb.co/31vz80T)

[Jim Watson]

I don't know those two rifles so I'll stick to twist rates.

I think the 1/12 twist barrel has some disadvantages because the best accuracy will be with 45 grn bullets.

Strange, until the advent of the 6mm PPC, the .222 with 52-53 gr bullets in 14 twist was a leader in benchrest.

My 14 twist .22-250 is accurate with up to the 60 gr Hornady SP but wild with the longer 60 gr HP.

[UNM1136]

Maybe out of sentiment, but I like controlled feed rifles...

pat

[Nephrology]

Not exactly the varmint rifle you mentioned, but close. That's a 1500 HB .223 with a B&C stock. It's a real nice shooter. :D


https://i.ibb.co/CB62Xnw/P1020251.jpg (https://ibb.co/31vz80T)

Nice - is that a 20" barrel?

[OlongJohnson]

I’ve actually got a White Oak Armament competition upper on the way. It was a good deal so it should be here next week. :D

Honestly, I'd just spend some time with that upper. Assuming it's not the built-in carry handle irons version, spend the bolt gun money on some really nice glass. My 20-in. upper was a big factor in viewing my .223 bolt gun as surplus and putting it on consignment.

[Borderland]

Nice - is that a 20" barrel?

Yep, and they weren't kidding when they said it was a heavy barrel. I can only shoot it about 1 MOA. Others can do better with it.

[Borderland]

Strange, until the advent of the 6mm PPC, the .222 with 52-53 gr bullets in 14 twist was a leader in benchrest.

My 14 twist .22-250 is accurate with up to the 60 gr Hornady SP but wild with the longer 60 gr HP.

Maybe this entire twist rate thing is a marketing gimmick by bullet manufacturers to sell more bullets. Seriously, I don't have any experience with it, I'm just parroting what I read. I didn't get into precision rifle shooting until about 5 years ago and the only hard core target rifle I have is the one in that photo.

[Jim Watson]

The first wave of funny twists I saw was when the DoD went small bore.
As I understand it, they made some M16s with the then standard 14 twist as seen in .222 and other benchrest and varmint rifles shooting 50-55 gr flat base spitzers and 52 gr boattail hollow points. That was inadequate with the cheap M193 55 gr FMJ boattails in cold dense air, so they went to a 12 twist.

The Marine rifle team got some 10 twist barrels to try to make the AR an Across the Course match rifle with ball ammo.

Efforts to increase range and penetration brought the 62 gr SS109 bullet in M855 ammo, for which a 9 twist would have been ample, but the very long M856 tracer required the present 7 twist.

A lot of target shooters are now using 8 twist for 80 gr bullets.

The other line of twist increase was by LR and PR shooters who were tired of getting kicked by .300 Magnums. So they went to smaller calibers with high BC bullets and faster twists than usual in 6, 6.5, and 7mm.

[SecondsCount]

Good history lesson Jim Watson

I will add that the LR/PR shooters were also tired of the costs associated with burning all that powder and short barrel life that come with shooting magnums.


Maybe this entire twist rate thing is a marketing gimmick by bullet manufacturers to sell more bullets. Seriously, I don't have any experience with it, I'm just parroting what I read. I didn't get into precision rifle shooting until about 5 years ago and the only hard core target rifle I have is the one in that photo.

All the new cartridges are a little bit gimmicky. To most shooters, except for recoil, they won't know the difference between at 308 and a 6.5 Creedmoor, but a competitor who is trying to win a match where the difference is 0.1", it matters.

I have always liked 6mm/243 caliber rifles. Years ago I had a 6mm Remington and shot 75 grain bullets at prairie poodles. I didn't fully grasp the concept of long bullets with a high ballistic coefficient because I was always going for velocity.

One day someone told me that BC trumps velocity when it comes to long range. I did a little research and I found that to be true but the BC of a bullet will typically increase with velocity.

Also, shorter bullets are more accurate on paper. Even with the long, high BC bullets being available, the benchrest crowd still shoot 60-70 grain flat based 6mm bullets at 100-300 yards.

[awp_101]

Thanks everyone, I’m sorting through wants, needs and budget but it’s going to require more typing than I want to do on a phone keyboard. I will say I’m expanding my choices for a base rifle and SecondsCount should get a kick out of my (positive) thoughts on the .243.

[SecondsCount]

Thanks everyone, I’m sorting through wants, needs and budget but it’s going to require more typing than I want to do on a phone keyboard. I will say I’m expanding my choices for a base rifle and SecondsCount should get a kick out of my (positive) thoughts on the .243.

This may sound a little "gimmicky" but I would go with 6mm Creedmoor over 243.

Most of the rifles in 243 on the market are are 9 or 10 twist barrels which won't stabilize the long bullets with a high BC. There is also a lot more 6CM ammo available for shooting at long ranges.

If you reload, 6CM has the 30 degree shoulder which means you get less case growth and you will probably never need to trim your cases. It's also a little more efficient when it comes to powder so you get a little bit longer barrel life.

[RT6]

I got introduced to bench shooting a couple of years ago. Still a novice, but had the opportunity to try out some good rifles at distances out to 500 meters. I got a lot of advice on what to buy for myself, but ended up starting with a Rock River LAR-15 14.5 1-9 twist heavy barrel. After figuring out that it liked 55 grain boat tails better than the heavier bullets, I was able to get it to group an average of an inch, with a .60 MOA one time with Hornaday V-Max. That RRA, with a 4X16 scope was good enough for me to get hits on 3x5" steel out to 500 meters, with some high quality coaching. Nothing wrong with .223/5.56 for intermediate range shooting, and the Remington 700 is a good rifle. Still, I'd look for something with a faster rate of twist and the ability to stabilize heavier bullets if you decide to up your game. Tikka and Bergara are two budget friendly rifles. Savage, Ruger, and Mossberg also offer some decent alternatives.

[awp_101]

Thanks everyone, I'm soaking up as much as I can right now. With Model 70s and Tikkas going for more than I want to pay right now and after doing some thinking I've expanded my search parameters a bit and narrowed down some features I'd prefer.

I'm sticking to .223 (ideally .223 Wylde) for economy and recoil reasons. If/when I decide to step up in caliber, .243 will probably be my choice because I have a thing for old calibers, I like the quarterbores (plus 7mm) and I'm a contrarian guncrank. This is just for my 100/200 yard bench shooting fun so get off my lawn! But the case for 6 CM is compelling. I almost bit on a RPR in 6 CM with 400 rounds of factory ammo but it was just over what I was willing to spend, I haven't really handled a RPR (although I do have the rimfire version) and it seems like a waste of a good LR cartridge for a 200 yard range. I might have to take another look at the 6 CM.

Turns out I'm not as interested in a chassis rifle as I thought I was. After handling a couple of Savage rifles in factory MDT stocks, I prefer the feel and handling of something like the KRG Bravo, H-S or B&C. My Bravo stocked 10/22 feels much better to me than my RPRR.


Not exactly the varmint rifle you mentioned, but close. That's a 1500 HB .223 with a B&C stock. It's a real nice shooter. :D
https://i.ibb.co/CB62Xnw/P1020251.jpg (https://ibb.co/31vz80T)
I like that. That's a good looking setup that also appears to be pretty solid. I had a 7.62x39 barreled action a few years ago but never could find any stocks I liked that were in my budget and the aftermarket support in general seemed a bit thin. Given my intention to use this rifle for fun and training, I think I'm going to add them to my search list.



Honestly, I'd just spend some time with that upper. Assuming it's not the built-in carry handle irons version, spend the bolt gun money on some really nice glass. My 20-in. upper was a big factor in viewing my .223 bolt gun as surplus and putting it on consignment.
It arrived yesterday and I think I'm going to need a separate thread for it. It's the A4 Service Rifle Optic Upper, Post Ban, 1-7 (https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/a4-service-rifle-optic-upper-post-ban-1-7.html). Once I get a fixed stock lower assembled, I need to learn how to shoot it from the bench since I haven't found a way to mount one of my Magpul bipods to the A2 handguard yet. I'll still want a good bolt action because I like variety.

[OlongJohnson]

On the WOA upper, I wonder if you could swap out the gas block for one with a chunk of Pic on the bottom and just use a Magpul bipod. And maybe receiver height rail on the upper part so you could mount up folding irons just for giggles.

One thing to consider is that if you're really going to chase accuracy and work up custom loads for the guns, you'll have separate brass fleets for a bolt gun and for the gas gun anyway. You'll use a full-length die for the gas gun to ensure reliable feeding and mostly just neck size for the bolt gun, so even the press setups will be different. So you there's an argument for making it a different cartridge altogether to prevent mixups.

What about doing something in a PPC or TCU? All the economy with brass and powder of a .223, but something different and an ecosystem devoted to competition accuracy?

[Borderland]

Thanks everyone, I'm soaking up as much as I can right now. With Model 70s and Tikkas going for more than I want to pay right now and after doing some thinking I've expanded my search parameters a bit and narrowed down some features I'd prefer.

I'm sticking to .223 (ideally .223 Wylde) for economy and recoil reasons. If/when I decide to step up in caliber, .243 will probably be my choice because I have a thing for old calibers, I like the quarterbores (plus 7mm) and I'm a contrarian guncrank. This is just for my 100/200 yard bench shooting fun so get off my lawn! But the case for 6 CM is compelling. I almost bit on a RPR in 6 CM with 400 rounds of factory ammo but it was just over what I was willing to spend, I haven't really handled a RPR (although I do have the rimfire version) and it seems like a waste of a good LR cartridge for a 200 yard range. I might have to take another look at the 6 CM.

Turns out I'm not as interested in a chassis rifle as I thought I was. After handling a couple of Savage rifles in factory MDT stocks, I prefer the feel and handling of something like the KRG Bravo, H-S or B&C. My Bravo stocked 10/22 feels much better to me than my RPRR.


I like that. That's a good looking setup that also appears to be pretty solid. I had a 7.62x39 barreled action a few years ago but never could find any stocks I liked that were in my budget and the aftermarket support in general seemed a bit thin. Given my intention to use this rifle for fun and training, I think I'm going to add them to my search list.



It arrived yesterday and I think I'm going to need a separate thread for it. It's the A4 Service Rifle Optic Upper, Post Ban, 1-7 (https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/a4-service-rifle-optic-upper-post-ban-1-7.html). Once I get a fixed stock lower assembled, I need to learn how to shoot it from the bench since I haven't found a way to mount one of my Magpul bipods to the A2 handguard yet. I'll still want a good bolt action because I like variety.

.223 was my choice because brass is cheap, or was. I just sold 2K once fired for 0.05/pc plus shipping. Now that I've shot the cheap bullets for awhile I'm going to buy some match grade. I know that those will tighten my groups up. That was he reason for the build.

6 mm is the sweet spot for 2-300 yd competition. i don't shoot in competition. ;)

[Wise_A]

6mm Creedmoor is nice, the barrel life is not. My next rifle is going to be a 6mm BR. There are some other really interesting cartridges in the 300-yard-and-under paper-punching realm (though 6BR is not at all limited to that), but making brass gets expensive and/or time-consuming.

On the topic of sizing--I full-length size all my brass, either all the way back or just enough to bump the shoulder a couple thou. FL sizing has returned excellent groups. If you want to get more involved, a honed FL die to resize and then a mandrel to expand the neck would be the next step, but that requires you to commit to a single bullet and case.

[cornstalker]

Maybe this entire twist rate thing is a marketing gimmick by bullet manufacturers to sell more bullets. Seriously, I don't have any experience with it, I'm just parroting what I read. I didn't get into precision rifle shooting until about 5 years ago and the only hard core target rifle I have is the one in that photo.

In regards to twist rates. JBM ballistics has several free ballistics calculators on their site. One of which is a stability calculator that uses the Miller Stability Factor formula. They also have a library of common bullet length measurements. It is a good resource to gather guideline data on what twists are likely to stabilize what bullets at a given velocity.

https://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/calculators/calculators.shtml

[awp_101]

On the WOA upper, I wonder if you could swap out the gas block for one with a chunk of Pic on the bottom and just use a Magpul bipod. And maybe receiver height rail on the upper part so you could mount up folding irons just for giggles.
I'd prefer to not swap the gas block unless there's just no other viable option and I can't find a good bench shooting solution either by research or experimentation. It does have a FF tube under the handguard so I might be able to use a front rest and rear bag setup as long as the front rest is behind the gas block without worrying if there's pressure on the barrel, etc. I've given thought to putting a set of DD fixed sights on it just to see what my eyes will let me do.


One thing to consider is that if you're really going to chase accuracy and work up custom loads for the guns, you'll have separate brass fleets for a bolt gun and for the gas gun anyway. You'll use a full-length die for the gas gun to ensure reliable feeding and mostly just neck size for the bolt gun, so even the press setups will be different. So you there's an argument for making it a different cartridge altogether to prevent mixups.

What about doing something in a PPC or TCU? All the economy with brass and powder of a .223, but something different and an ecosystem devoted to competition accuracy?
Fair point regarding mixing brass and I do have an interest in the TCU family due to a perpetual interest in Contenders. I saw a bolt action 7 TCU built on a Savage Axis (IIRC) on either GB or GI a couple of years ago but it sold before I was able to get my research done. A 6x45, 6/6.5/7 TCU wouldn't be off the table when it comes time to build a rifle just the way I want it. Maybe a 6 or 6.5x47 Lapua if I do something with a .308 bolt face.


6mm Creedmoor is nice, the barrel life is not. My next rifle is going to be a 6mm BR. There are some other really interesting cartridges in the 300-yard-and-under paper-punching realm (though 6BR is not at all limited to that), but making brass gets expensive and/or time-consuming.

I'm not down for anything beyond basic necking up or down thanks to time and space considerations and I'd really, really like to keep this first one an off the shelf caliber (such as things are nowadays) for the same reason. AFA barrel life, I struggle to get to the 100/200 yard outdoor range even once a quarter most of the year. Based on a couple of threads on Sniper's Hide, if I figure an average life of 1400 rounds for a 6CM barrel and 100 rounds per range session (almost certainly an overestimation) that's over 3 years of barrel life. Maybe more if I'm not rapid firing long strings. Based on my typical ammo consumption, I'm probably looking at 5-7 years of barrel life which doesn't bother me at all.

[SecondsCount]

6mm Creedmoor is nice, the barrel life is not. My next rifle is going to be a 6mm BR. There are some other really interesting cartridges in the 300-yard-and-under paper-punching realm (though 6BR is not at all limited to that), but making brass gets expensive and/or time-consuming.

On the topic of sizing--I full-length size all my brass, either all the way back or just enough to bump the shoulder a couple thou. FL sizing has returned excellent groups. If you want to get more involved, a honed FL die to resize and then a mandrel to expand the neck would be the next step, but that requires you to commit to a single bullet and case.
6BR is a fantastic caliber, I have one, but nobody makes one in a factory chambering. You can buy loaded ammo but there are several companies that make brass for it, including Norma and Lapua- which is excellent brass for reloading and accuracy. The only reason to "make" brass is if you needed to fireform it for 6BRA, 6BRX, etc.

223 is still a good choice for a factory gun, especially for the average guy like most of us who just like to go bang steel once in a while. Low recoil, long brass and barrel life, tons of options for factory loaded ammo, cheap to reload, and with the right twist you can shoot everything from the little match/varmint bullets all the way up the the higher BC heavies.

For your White Oak upper:

Harris makes a bipod adapter for the A2 handguards (https://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/bipods-monopods-amp-accessories/bipod-accessories/handguard-bipod-adapter-prod41593.aspx)

[Wise_A]

I was thinking of 30BR re: pita brass, which I was really interested in for a little while. Savage does offer at least the 12 LRPV and 12 F-Class in 6mm Norma BR (I don't think anyone does Remington?)...but yeah, nobody offers a 6BR that I would recommend anyone to buy over other stuff. Objectively, 223 is a really strong choice, it's just not cool.

[awp_101]

I’ll be honest, Savage appeals to my cheap ass frugal nature and my love of tinkering. Not super cool or sexy but add in a good barrel, stock and single shot follower and I should be good to go. Plus I think the trigger can be upgraded which is something I haven’t seen for the Howas. Resale value isn’t a huge concern because if/when it gets replaced it’ll go to one of the boys or a grandkid.

[OlongJohnson]

I’ll be honest, Savage appeals to my cheap ass frugal nature and my love of tinkering. Not super cool or sexy but add in a good barrel, stock and single shot follower and I should be good to go. Plus I think the trigger can be upgraded which is something I haven’t seen for the Howas. Resale value isn’t a huge concern because if/when it gets replaced it’ll go to one of the boys or a grandkid.

Or you could buy a new Rem700 bolt/receiver with no barrel attached. You can buy them as single-shot only so you get the full stiffness in the receiver.

And Timney makes a trigger for standard-size Howas. Don't know if it works in Minis.

[SecondsCount]

I was thinking of 30BR re: pita brass, which I was really interested in for a little while. Savage does offer at least the 12 LRPV and 12 F-Class in 6mm Norma BR (I don't think anyone does Remington?)...but yeah, nobody offers a 6BR that I would recommend anyone to buy over other stuff. Objectively, 223 is a really strong choice, it's just not cool.

I was under the understanding that Savage had discontinued the 6BR chambering but I see that Buds and Grab a Gun have some in stock for $1440. From what I have read, those are not repeaters so you have to single load each round, typical of benchrest.

There are so many options these days for starting with a receiver and bolting stuff to it. Savage works well but since they have several different versions of their receiver, you have to be careful which one you choose so you can find a stock that fits it.

Remington 700 pattern receivers are very popular with the PRS crowd. There are many options from Defiance, Origin, Impact, etc that give you a ready to go receiver that you can get prefit barrels or do a Remage style nut. Tons of stock and trigger options out there.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

AWP-101

While you mention the M70 as out of your price range, that era USRA/Win M70's had Wilson barrels and were very accurate with appropriate weight bullets. Most do not need a lot in the way of blueprinting if you go down the custom build rabbit hole although M70 DBM choices are much fewer if you do and you need want dbm.

In regards to 6mm br, they are hard to beat and the factory ammo is world class. I remember talking with the AMTU 300 M shooters at a a clinic they were hosting and they were using factory ammo. They didn't reload because the factory was an honest 1/3 MOA, 10 shot group ammo. They have the resources and the desire to have the best in the world but choose not to reload that caliber....

If you go with a .223 boltface precision rifle, go a minimum of 8 twist and 6.5 - 7 twist is preferable and strongly consider making the chamber look like a Ackley Improved instead of a Wylde. AR's are limited to 55 kPSI, bolt guns are not. Many load heavy 80-95 gr. 223's at high performance levels. If you form your brass into 223 AI you can get the performance gain of the extra capacity AND ensure that you wont inadvertently have a high pressure round migrate into a AR.....

[awp_101]

Or you could buy a new Rem700 bolt/receiver with no barrel attached. You can buy them as single-shot only so you get the full stiffness in the receiver.

There are so many options these days for starting with a receiver and bolting stuff to it.
Yeah, that starts with PR #2. I keep starting down that rabbit trail unintentionally and before I realize it project creep is happening and I'm blowing my budget for this whole thing on just the receiver.


And Timney makes a trigger for standard-size Howas. Don't know if it works in Minis.
What I'm finding says no. It appears they physically fit the action but putting the action back in the stock or getting it to work right if it does go back without altering the stock are another story.


strongly consider making the chamber look like a Ackley Improved instead of a Wylde. AR's are limited to 55 kPSI, bolt guns are not. If you form your brass into 223 AI you can get the performance gain of the extra capacity AND ensure that you wont inadvertently have a high pressure round migrate into a AR.....
That is an excellent idea! .223AI was briefly discussed in another thread and I was sort of looking for a reason to go that way.

[Wise_A]

I was under the understanding that Savage had discontinued the 6BR chambering but I see that Buds and Grab a Gun have some in stock for $1440. From what I have read, those are not repeaters so you have to single load each round, typical of benchrest.

There are so many options these days for starting with a receiver and bolting stuff to it. Savage works well but since they have several different versions of their receiver, you have to be careful which one you choose so you can find a stock that fits it.

Remington 700 pattern receivers are very popular with the PRS crowd. There are many options from Defiance, Origin, Impact, etc that give you a ready to go receiver that you can get prefit barrels or do a Remage style nut. Tons of stock and trigger options out there.

I believe that factory-fresh Savages all have the same bolt spacing--even my snowflake 12 action fits into any modern Savage SA stock. Where you run into trouble is when you buy a used one. I'm unsurprised that they're restricting 6BR to their single-shots, as it's an economical way to avoid running into feeding issues. All that said--I don't hate my Savage, I really rather enjoy the gun and it shoots great, but don't buy a Savage. I really wish I had just sacked up and screwed together my own for the 6.5CM.

Said rifle I'm mulling for that cartridge--damn it sounds like a lot of fun--will be a custom action. Definitely integral lug, probably integral rail, everything else I'm still exploring. But the Impact Precision 737 sounds real sexy.


I’ll be honest, Savage appeals to my cheap ass frugal nature and my love of tinkering. Not super cool or sexy but add in a good barrel, stock and single shot follower and I should be good to go. Plus I think the trigger can be upgraded which is something I haven’t seen for the Howas. Resale value isn’t a huge concern because if/when it gets replaced it’ll go to one of the boys or a grandkid.

The way I look at it, if you buy a Savage, you're buying a really great factory barrel and a very good trigger (presuming you can get over the AccuTrigger blade).


That is an excellent idea! .223AI was briefly discussed in another thread and I was sort of looking for a reason to go that way.

Devil's advocate, if you're shooting under 300 yards you really don't need the extra 150-ish fps, and using an AI means you can't shoot F-T/R with that rifle unless you get a new barrel. Just get a .223 for now, and if you want to rebarrel later, either get a Wylde or have a barrel reamed with a PT+G ISSF reamer for 90-grain Bergers. Which would also be dumb as hell because you're shooting a .223 for its practicality and then throwing 90-grain Bergers down the tube. So if you want more dakka, get a rifle in one of the dumbass cartridges I keep looking at.

Counterpoint, you don't need anything more than a .224-bore at your distance, so there's really no downside to having an AI, and it's cool.

RE: 6CM barrel life, hell, most people can't kill a barrel if they try, so it's as good an excuse as any.

[Jim Watson]

Which would also be dumb as hell because you're shooting a .223 for its practicality and then throwing 90-grain Bergers down the tube. So if you want more dakka, get a rifle in one of the dumbass cartridges I keep looking at.

Counterpoint, you don't need anything more than a .224-bore at your distance, so there's really no downside to having an AI, and it's cool.



Having gone the route to a 6.5 twist .223 for 90 gr VLDs in F-T/R, I can somewhat agree. It is not a 1000 yard rifle but it holds up very well out to 600. Not remotely necessary for 200. The Internet is hung up on fast twist and heavy bullets even when not needed.

There is no upside to a .223 AI for anything that I can see. I got over Kewl Factor some time ago.

Picking .223 for cheap ammo and surplus brass is false economy for a target rifle. A few hundred commercial cases of the same lot number, lightly sized, will probably wear out a barrel. And I do not shoot surplus or econoball in my target rifles, because you CAN wear out a barrel, at least to the point of perceptibly larger groups with the good stuff.

[Wise_A]

What I'm saying in terms of economy is that I think there's a difference between building a gun around 90-grain, $0.50/round Bergers, versus $0.20/round 60-grain Sierra TMKs. Outside of competition, by the time you're pitching heavy, top-notch bullets, why not just spend a little more on powder and get a better-suited cartridge?

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

What I'm saying in terms of economy is that I think there's a difference between building a gun around 90-grain, $0.50/round Bergers, versus $0.20/round 60-grain Sierra TMKs. Outside of competition, by the time you're pitching heavy, top-notch bullets, why not just spend a little more on powder and get a better-suited cartridge?

1. Berger isn't the only high BC bullet maker, 88 gr EDL-M's (pre current stupidity) were a bargain for practice/ unimportant match ammo, same with Sierra and Nosler "Seconds" when available 2.My personal fast twist .224 bore rifles shoot 52 and 53 gr SMK's great up close (and 69SMK's at 300), if I so choose. A slow twist rifle may be fun to lob rounds in a P=dog town but will never be as useful at relatively longer ranges...plenty of people choose .224 bores as a "trainer" practice centerfire that mimics their real deal match rifle (PRS and NRA High-power) because for the same bc, the bullet will be cheaper, and you save significantly on both powder and barrel life..... 224 Valkyrie was starting to take off as a PRS boltgun practice round before the current foolishness simply because of the cost of ammo for those who wanted to practice relatively high volumes (thinking in terms of cases / month consumption) instead of spending time at the reloading bench (much like how 9mm became the default for those choosing to compete with pistols but stick with factory ammo for practice)....

[awp_101]

Maybe this entire twist rate thing is a marketing gimmick by bullet manufacturers to sell more bullets. Seriously, I don't have any experience with it, I'm just parroting what I read.
I have a lot more "reading time" than actual experience with twist rate issues but the one time I know I can pin a rifle problem on twist rate/bullet weight incompatibility was with an Interarms Mark X (older CZ made mini-Mauser) .223. When I bought it all the .223 I had on hand was 62gr and it would barely hold 8" at 25 yards. After swapping the scope, checking the mounts, etc I was about to chalk it up to getting stuck with someone else's problem child.

Before taking it back to the shop I picked up some 55gr and made another range trip. The groups tightened considerably (1-2" at 25 yards) and probably would have improved even more except for the loose nut behind the trigger. But since I am a graduate of the Jake Blues University of Excuses when it comes to my shooting, all I can say is...

https://youtu.be/JFvujknrBuE

[Wise_A]

1. Berger isn't the only high BC bullet maker, 88 gr EDL-M's (pre current stupidity) were a bargain for practice/ unimportant match ammo, same with Sierra and Nosler "Seconds" when available 2.My personal fast twist .224 bore rifles shoot 52 and 53 gr SMK's great up close (and 69SMK's at 300), if I so choose. A slow twist rifle may be fun to lob rounds in a P=dog town but will never be as useful at relatively longer ranges...plenty of people choose .224 bores as a "trainer" practice centerfire that mimics their real deal match rifle (PRS and NRA High-power) because for the same bc, the bullet will be cheaper, and you save significantly on both powder and barrel life..... 224 Valkyrie was starting to take off as a PRS boltgun practice round before the current foolishness simply because of the cost of ammo for those who wanted to practice relatively high volumes (thinking in terms of cases / month consumption) instead of spending time at the reloading bench (much like how 9mm became the default for those choosing to compete with pistols but stick with factory ammo for practice)....

Yeah--if you flip back I'm against the 1:12" factory offerings. Nor am I asking "why would anyone get a .223". What I'm saying is that if you're not going to have a long-term use for the .223, and your shooting isn't limited by money...well, maybe don't consider .223 as a necessary starting point. Or if you need to dip your toes, get a Ruger American Predator or some cheap Savage and hang a Nightforce on top.

[awp_101]

Picked this up today:
69719

Rem 700 .223 with a 20" Krieger barrel, H-S stock and what feels like a replacement or massaged trigger. Barrel passes the dollar bill free float test all the way to the receiver. It's supposed to have been touched by a noted precision 'smith, hopefully I can contact him Monday and see if he has any particulars such as twist, trigger, etc.

[SecondsCount]

Picked this up today:
69719

Rem 700 .223 with a 20" Krieger barrel, H-S stock and what feels like a replacement or massaged trigger. Barrel passes the dollar bill free float test all the way to the receiver. It's supposed to have been touched by a noted precision 'smith, hopefully I can contact him Monday and see if he has any particulars such as twist, trigger, etc.
That's a nice looking rig :cool:

[cornstalker]

Picked this up today:
69719

Rem 700 .223 with a 20" Krieger barrel, H-S stock and what feels like a replacement or massaged trigger. Barrel passes the dollar bill free float test all the way to the receiver. It's supposed to have been touched by a noted precision 'smith, hopefully I can contact him Monday and see if he has any particulars such as twist, trigger, etc.

Very nice! That thing is going to be loads of fun.

[Jimichanga]

Picked this up today:

Rem 700 .223 with a 20" Krieger barrel, H-S stock and what feels like a replacement or massaged trigger. Barrel passes the dollar bill free float test all the way to the receiver. It's supposed to have been touched by a noted precision 'smith, hopefully I can contact him Monday and see if he has any particulars such as twist, trigger, etc.

That looks like an old Remington LTR stock made by HS Precision. The triggers in the early LTRs were upgraded as well IIRC a 40x (the 40x trigger was adjustable without removing from stock, is there an adjustment screw in front of trigger?). Way better stock than the flexible plastic garbage that they use now. Kriegers are great barrels. Awesome find.

[Borderland]

Picked this up today:
69719

Rem 700 .223 with a 20" Krieger barrel, H-S stock and what feels like a replacement or massaged trigger. Barrel passes the dollar bill free float test all the way to the receiver. It's supposed to have been touched by a noted precision 'smith, hopefully I can contact him Monday and see if he has any particulars such as twist, trigger, etc.

Very nice. I especially like that 20" heavy barrel. Let us know how it shoots.

[awp_101]

That looks like an old Remington LTR stock made by HS Precision. The triggers in the early LTRs were upgraded as well IIRC a 40x (the 40x trigger was adjustable without removing from stock, is there an adjustment screw in front of trigger?). Way better stock than the flexible plastic garbage that they use now. Kriegers are great barrels. Awesome find.

I’ll look for an adjustment screw this evening. It’s an E series sn if that helps anyone date it. 2010-ish I think?

[awp_101]

Very nice. I especially like that 20" heavy barrel. Let us know how it shoots.

The barrel length was the final selling point when I was debating this or a Model 70 I had my eye on. From a bench longer may be better (up to a point), but I’m a carbine/short rifle guy at heart and don’t particularly care for barrels over 20”. Probably because my first rifle was a Winchester 94 .30-30 carbine and I spent untold hours carrying a Crosman 760 around until I was old enough to be turned loose with the 94.

[Wise_A]

A longer barrel is only valuable for (usually) squeezing a little more velocity out of a cartridge. More velocity reduces the impact of wind for a given bullet/cartridge, and flattens trajectory for variable ranges. My .223 really only sees use out to 300 yards--I'm looking at a 17-18" barrel, just barely long-enough to clear the chassis.

[SecondsCount]

20" will do just fine. 22" is my choice for 223 although I have a 24" barrel being made right now in 1:7 because I want to send 80s to 1K and beyond, and am looking at the 85 RDF as well. A friend has a 26" 223 and sends the 75 Amax at 3050 FPS with a compressed load of Varget.

Every inch adds about 25 FPS. I get 2690 FPS from my 16" AR with a 77 grain bullet. A 24" bolt action should get me 2950 which should reduce windage by 15-20%.

Up here in the thin air, 16 - 18" barrels will get a warmly loaded 77 SMK, and the higher BC (Amax, RDF, ELD, VLD, etc) bullets to 1000 yards.

Don't forget that velocity helps the BC of a bullet. Most listed BCs for a bullet are based on an Average. If you can send that bullet out with an above average velocity, and flatten the trajectory, it really helps at longer ranges.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

Picking barrel length in rifles is much like picking holsters for EDC, there are lots of choices, and the one that works for one circumstance best will probably not work the best for all....

This fall's science fair project in my household included spinning up a 25" finished ( I was two cheap to cut up a 31" bartlien), 1-7 blank, chambering it in 5.56, attaching it to a SBR and chopping it down to various common lengths.. We instrumented with down range acoustic chronographs to be able to get stop and starts to do future projects to include BC experiments based upon velocity along comparison experiments between lab radar and magnetospeed, along with the original barrel length vs. velocity experiment.

Attached is the the velocity data vs. barrel length for one particular load (M193)