News story: Hug discharges concealed pistol, woman shot

[peterb]

ABC news today:

A friendly hug at a Detroit house party proved fatal for a woman after she accidentally discharged an off-duty cop's handgun.

Adaisha Miller, 24, attended a fish fry at the home of an off-duty Detroit police officer on Saturday and, at around midnight, began to hug or dance with the officer from behind and accidentally set off his gun, according to Detroit police chief Ralph Godbee, Jr.

The police department didn't release the name of the officer but said that he has been cooperative with an internal investigation launched in the wake of the shooting and is shocked at what happened.

Godbee said that the officer had been concealing his department-issued .40 caliber Smith and Wesson semiautomatic hand gun in a holster in his waistband when Miller placed her hands on his waist. Godbee indicated that Miller had seemingly touched the gun in some way, causing it to fire. There is no safety switch on the weapon, he said.

"I don't think I'm giving anything away by saying this but for the sake of transparency, it is possible for the trigger to be manipulated with that type of holster," Godbee said. "Typically the barrel is facing down, but the preliminary investigation indicates that there was some manipulation along the officer's waistline that he did not control and subsequently the weapon discharged."

Godbee said that there was no indication from evidence or witnesses that the officer had placed his hand on the weapon. The investigation will include forensic analysis by the Detroit State Police and a medical examiner's report.

"He is very remorseful of the incident and the tragic nature of this young lady losing her life in the manner she did," Godbee said.

Miller's mother, Yolanda McNair, told the Detroit Free Press that she has been told different versions of the events leading up to her daughter's death and can't udnerstand why the officer was armed at his own party.

"The story keeps changing. There's no logical reason," she said. "Why do you need a weapon with a round in the chamber?"

Police department spokeswoman Cassandra Lewis said that the prosecutor's office would decide whether any charges would be pressed in the case.

Amy Driver, a gun safety expert, said that it was "entirely possible" that if someone was placing their hands on the officer's waistband that the weapon could become loose from the holster and then discharge if it were pressed back down toward the holster.

"It sounds like she pulled on his waistband, and if that shifted his waistband, the gun could have come up out of the holster a little bit, and his instinct could be to push the gun back in holster. If something got caught on trigger, it could have fired," she said.

Driver said that investigators would likely find a hole in the side of the officer's pants, where the bullet left the gun and traveled to Miller.

[Tamara]

Godbee said that the officer had been concealing his department-issued .40 caliber Smith and Wesson semiautomatic hand gun in a holster in his waistband when Miller placed her hands on his waist. Godbee indicated that Miller had seemingly touched the gun in some way, causing it to fire. There is no safety switch on the weapon, he said.

I am extremely dubious. I am trying and failing to see how a gun in an IWB holster could discharge and send a bullet through the chest of somebody hugging the toter from behind.

[Joe in PNG]

I'm thinking that some hanky and a little panky were happening, and the officer in question may be trying to hide that fact.

[Tamara]

According to Stephens, the woman "embraced the officer from behind, causing the holstered weapon to accidently discharge." The bullet punctured Miller's lung and hit her heart, and she died at a hospital. (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120709/D9VT4VMO2.html)

From an IWB rig? If the story went down as it's being presented, he'd have to be Shaq and she'd have to be a member of the Lullaby League (that's the ladies' auxiliary of the Lollipop Guild for any uncultured visigoths reading this) for that to work out.

[Zhurdan]

Or they were playing Lil' Jon's "Get Low" on the stereo as she was behind him.

[NEPAKevin]

Or they were playing Lil' Jon's "Get Low" on the stereo as she was behind him.

...Shawty caught a forty.

Once again, just not professional enough.

[justcor]

me thinks.
http://www.code3tactical.com/images/products/detail/ja_2.jpg

[Jason F]

It'll be interesting to see how the details shake out over the course of this week.

When I first heard about this this morning on the radio news broadcast I was just scratching my head wondering "how??". There's something that just doesn't sit right with this story as it's being told right now.

[TCinVA]

A mouth hug, maybe...

Aside from that I can't fathom how the described events would have actually transpired.

[Tamara]

me thinks.
http://www.code3tactical.com/images/products/detail/ja_2.jpg

That was my initial thought, too, (I had the article I linked open in a tab before I saw this thread) but they're pretty straight up about it being an IWB in the piece to which peterb linked.

[DocGKR]

If he was standing upright, the only way a pistol in an IWB could strike her in the chest was if she was on her knees ala Monica...

[Tamara]

If he was standing upright, the only way a pistol in an IWB could strike her in the chest was if she was on her knees ala Monica...

I think we were all trying to find a more delicate way to say that, but, yeah. :p I mean, nobody wants to tell a grieving mother "Ma'am the only way your daughter could have been shot like that while hugging him is if she was hugging his knees." :o

[orionz06]

A mouth hug, maybe...

Aside from that I can't fathom how the described events would have actually transpired.

Maybe a lot of people just don't like her and they all got their story straight.

[Tamara]

Maybe a lot of people just don't like her and they all got their story straight.

That's a possibility, too, but that's an awful lot of people to keep their stories straight. It wouldn't take much investigatin' for that to come apart, maybe by the first commercial break. :p

[cclaxton]

It was still the responsibility of the police officer to be in control of his firearm, especially a loaded and concealed firearm. I hope the police officer was tested for alcohol level as well. If you are dancing and coming into contact with another person who may be reaching around your waist (or any part of your body where the firearm may be holstered), I would remove the firearm or unload it.

This was irresponsible and negligent and unnecessary death and there should be charges. And, if alcohol was involved, manslaughter 1. It's one thing when an LE is engaged in clearing a house or in a gunfight and shoots a non-threat.....it is quite another when the LE was not even engaged in an enforcement activity. Bad PR for gun concealment.
CC

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm thinking more of one of these kind of holsters;

http://www.amazon.com/Uncle-Mikes-Nylon-Inside-The-Pant-Holster/dp/B003R6LWLU


I know of more than one off-duty cop related party death due to shit holsters, typically because the gun gets loose and either ends up being picked up by a second retard or the gun carrier tries to do the gun fumble juggle catch and ends up with a digit in the trigger guard.

Several large LE agencies now require a thumb break or other positive retention device for off-duty holsters, which is why things exist like a copy of the Summer Special with a thumb break.

I will guess we have a combination of crappy holster, a Glock 22 or M&P (Detroit is transitioning from one to the other the last I knew), physical activity, and a finger ending up in the trigger guard.

For all we know she may have aggressively grabbed him and ended up with a handful of gun (not saying this was a "gun grab"), if dude then reacted with some sort of weapon retention move out of reflex and clamped down on the gun to try and keep it in place I could see a loud noise happening.

As to the other comments; If I was a copper in Detroit I'd be wearing a gun in my own house as well. I won't even comment on "round in the chamber" and other such nonsense.

[Tamara]

If you are dancing and coming into contact with another person who may be reaching around your waist (or any part of your body where the firearm may be holstered), I would remove the firearm or unload it.

Do I read you right? That, if I'm visiting my parents and I think my dad's going to give me a big hug when I get there, I should clear my heater in the car? :confused:

While not much of a dancer, I have manged to semi-successfully engage in the practice without anybody putting inadvertant holes in anything. While at a get-together last year, one of the attendees was a licensed massage therapist and giving chair massages; "That's the first time I've ever had to work around a gun," she said. :D

I think a quality holster should protect the firearm from these little jostles of everyday life. I mean, that's practically what it's there for...

(Also, while everybody who's watched Law & Order knows about "man 1" from New York penal law, there appears to be no such offense in the Michigan penal code. It's just "manslaughter", with no numbers or degrees. ;) )

[ford.304]

Sometimes I think it's a bit irresponsible of gun stores to even *sell* nylon holsters. If the safety equipment you're selling doesn't actually keep the gun from going bang, why are you selling it?

[cclaxton]

Do I read you right? That, if I'm visiting my parents and I think my dad's going to give me a big hug when I get there, I should clear my heater in the car? :confused:

While not much of a dancer, I have manged to semi-successfully engage in the practice without anybody putting inadvertant holes in anything. While at a get-together last year, one of the attendees was a licensed massage therapist and giving chair massages; "That's the first time I've ever had to work around a gun," she said. :D

I think a quality holster should protect the firearm from these little jostles of everyday life. I mean, that's practically what it's there for...

(Also, while everybody who's watched Law & Order knows about "man 1" from New York penal law, there appears to be no such offense in the Michigan penal code. It's just "manslaughter", with no numbers or degrees. ;) )

There is a big diff between a hug and dancing, especially at a party. Part of Rule #2 (Never point a gun at anything you are not prepared to destroy) is to know when your personal activity creates too much risk to safely carry it. Safety must come first, especially at times where there are no threats and no active enforcement activities. It is possible, of course, that the LEO involved here may have felt there was a threat even at his own party....the investigation will reveal if there was justification. But if this is the case, he had an obligation not to put anyone at risk through dancing, etc.
CC

[Kyle Reese]

If he was standing upright, the only way a pistol in an IWB could strike her in the chest was if she was on her knees ala Monica...

I was thinking this too......

[TCinVA]

Maybe a lot of people just don't like her and they all got their story straight.

I know this makes me a bad person...but I LOL'd.


There is a big diff between a hug and dancing, especially at a party. Part of Rule #2 (Never point a gun at anything you are not prepared to destroy) is to know when your personal activity creates too much risk to safely carry it.

I've danced while carrying a handgun without worry. I've even participated in umm...slightly more vigorous activities...involving attractive young women while carrying a handgun and so far nobody's been shot as a result.**

If you're using a good holster and nobody confuses which is for killing and which is for fun, it shouldn't be a problem.

** Alternately if a woman starts getting too friendly you could always put her in a wrist lock to stop it. BTDT. Have witnesses.

[Kyle Reese]

I know this makes me a bad person...but I LOL'd.



I've danced while carrying a handgun without worry. I've even participated in umm...slightly more vigorous activities...involving attractive young women while carrying a handgun and so far nobody's been shot as a result.**



Dude, you're my hero.

[Corlissimo]

"I don't think I'm giving anything away by saying this but for the sake of transparency, it is possible for the trigger to be manipulated with that type of holster," Godbee said.

This seems like a "smoking gun" statement to me (no pun intended). What kind of holster was in use? If the above is a true statement, then the trigger would likely have been exposed while the gun was in the holster. The alternative is that the gun came out of the holster somehow as already pointed out in post. But this statement really caught my attention.

[Tamara]

This seems like a "smoking gun" statement to me (no pun intended). What kind of holster was in use? If the above is a true statement, then the trigger would likely have been exposed while the gun was in the holster.

The word "neoprene" has been used, which leads me to believe one of those Uncle Mike's/¡Blackhawk! soft IWBs (http://taurus45acp.com/gallery/slides/Blackhawk%20ISP%20Holster.jpg).

[TCinVA]

When your holster is almost indistinguishable from a cheap case used for glasses...well...that's a clue.

[jthhapkido]

It was still the responsibility of the police officer to be in control of his firearm, especially a loaded and concealed firearm. I hope the police officer was tested for alcohol level as well. If you are dancing and coming into contact with another person who may be reaching around your waist (or any part of your body where the firearm may be holstered), I would remove the firearm or unload it.

This was irresponsible and negligent and unnecessary death and there should be charges. And, if alcohol was involved, manslaughter 1. It's one thing when an LE is engaged in clearing a house or in a gunfight and shoots a non-threat.....it is quite another when the LE was not even engaged in an enforcement activity. Bad PR for gun concealment.
CC

(emphasis mine)

Considering the remarkable dearth of information regarding the holster, the people, the circumstances, and the surroundings, that is a seriously strongly worded thing to say.

Also considering that the facts thus far make no sense (how could she get shot in the chest from that position), why are you saying "irresponsible and negligent and unnecessary"? Is there some information that you are privy to that we aren't?

Guy carrying in his own house---perfectly legal, and perhaps reasonable. (You don't know. Nor do I.) Woman places hands on him, (stuff happens), woman dies. Considering we know almost nothing about the "stuff happens" section, why are you saying definitively that there should be charges? Based on what?

I do certainly agree this is bad PR for concealed carry.

[Zhurdan]

I posted the following yesterday around 1:30 on another site. A plausible means for it to happen.


If we're speculating...

Said she was behind him. Canted holster... she "get low get low get low" dances behind him, grabs his waist to get back up... BAM! That'd put her at the right height without the fellatio theory.
__________________
Time flies when you throw your watch.

Seems like everyone talking about it leans towards a sexual cause or bitter wife. What I outlined in the quoted post seems very plausible to me, especially given the new information about the holster.

Bad situations don't always have to end with an Archer quote. :cool:

[Chuck Haggard]

I know this makes me a bad person...but I LOL'd.



I've danced while carrying a handgun without worry. I've even participated in umm...slightly more vigorous activities...involving attractive young women while carrying a handgun and so far nobody's been shot as a result.**

If you're using a good holster and nobody confuses which is for killing and which is for fun, it shouldn't be a problem.

** Alternately if a woman starts getting too friendly you could always put her in a wrist lock to stop it. BTDT. Have witnesses.

I concur with this assessment, BTDT as well, except for the wrist lock part.

My wife and I were talking about this incident earlier, still don't get it. She's been hugging me for 8 years now and neither one of us have been shot as a result.

[cclaxton]

(emphasis mine)

Considering the remarkable dearth of information regarding the holster, the people, the circumstances, and the surroundings, that is a seriously strongly worded thing to say.

Also considering that the facts thus far make no sense (how could she get shot in the chest from that position), why are you saying "irresponsible and negligent and unnecessary"? Is there some information that you are privy to that we aren't?

Guy carrying in his own house---perfectly legal, and perhaps reasonable. (You don't know. Nor do I.) Woman places hands on him, (stuff happens), woman dies. Considering we know almost nothing about the "stuff happens" section, why are you saying definitively that there should be charges? Based on what?

I do certainly agree this is bad PR for concealed carry.

Let me put it this way: I come from the view that I am totally responsible for the loaded handgun that I carry. If I mishandled the gun and shot someone, I am at fault unless they were a threat. If I let her grab at the gun and shoot me, herself or someone, then I am at least partly at fault, if not entirely. Unless someone comes up and grabs my gun without any warning or suprises me with a bang on the head or a gun or a knife, I am responsible.

We don't have the full story, but the facts are that the LE was not engaged in an enforcement activity and the woman was no threat. Those facts lead only to a conclusion of negligence.

If you are willing to take the risk, I am not stopping you, but I would not take that kind of risk.
CC

[ghettomedic]

** Alternately if a woman starts getting too friendly you could always put her in a wrist lock to stop it. BTDT. Have witnesses.

Not exactly the same situation, but I have grabbed a good friend's hand and tried to touch his palm to his forearm when he said (in front of friends and other less-well-known acquaintances) "Don't worry, I know my boy right here is packing" and made a move to tap my holstered, concealed gun with the back of his fingers. Shortly afterwards, in private, we had a "Dude, don't ever do that again" counseling session.

I would HOPE that someone grabbing an armed LEO (off-duty or not, concealed or not) around the waist from behind would end up on the ground with a surprised look on their face. Actually, it sounds like that's exactly what happened.

[Corlissimo]

The word "neoprene" has been used, which leads me to believe one of those Uncle Mike's/¡Blackhawk! soft IWBs (http://taurus45acp.com/gallery/slides/Blackhawk%20ISP%20Holster.jpg).

I hadn't seen that information and was only going by Godbee's statement.

So, if that really was the type of holster being used that begs a question for those who are LEO or LE affiliated:
Can/Do PD's/Agencies dictate what types of holsters their officers must use when off duty (i.e. with thumb breaks etc)?
If they don't, should they? What have been your experiences in this regard?

Thoughts from you LE folks?

[DocGKR]

Some agencies do dictate holster type, others have a list of approved models....I wish more would go this route to prevent stupid incidents from occurring.

[KeeFus]

The only requirements we have are for on duty use...and that is an issued holster. Otherwise, there are no policies that we have requiring the use of a quality holster with any type of retention for off-duty weapons.

[Tamara]

I hadn't seen that information and was only going by Godbee's statement.
Just found it myself. Detroit TV news report (http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/18977832/2012/07/09/woman-killed-after-off-duty-detroit-officers-gun-goes-off), via a link here (http://jovianthunderbolt.blogspot.com/2012/07/yeah.html).

[JodyH]

Some agencies do dictate holster type, others have a list of approved models....I wish more would go this route to prevent stupid incidents from occurring.
You can make a list, but the Serpa is gonna find it's way onto it.
:p



I know this wasn't a Serpa related accident.
But come on.
Everyday should be Serpa bashing day.

[seabiscuit]

There is a big diff between a hug and dancing, especially at a party. Part of Rule #2 (Never point a gun at anything you are not prepared to destroy) is to know when your personal activity creates too much risk to safely carry it. Safety must come first, especially at times where there are no threats and no active enforcement activities. It is possible, of course, that the LEO involved here may have felt there was a threat even at his own party....the investigation will reveal if there was justification. But if this is the case, he had an obligation not to put anyone at risk through dancing, etc.
CC

You been to Detroit? There are threats in Detroit.

[Gary1911A1]

I guess I shouldn't of allowed a female friend to hug and kiss me this AM. I think this is more of a problem with striker fired pistols with no external manual safety that is not on the trigger. It was reported the female victim was on her knees behind in when she went to hug him. I find that strange, but a lot of what the younger generation is strange to me.

[NickA]

The word "neoprene" has been used, which leads me to believe one of those Uncle Mike's/¡Blackhawk! soft IWBs (http://taurus45acp.com/gallery/slides/Blackhawk%20ISP%20Holster.jpg).

Or maybe one of those Remora deals that doesn't even have a clip.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[BWT]

If we're going to blame equipment, I say blame the holster.

I don't think we have the full story.

[Tamara]

I think this is more of a problem with striker fired pistols with no external manual safety that is not on the trigger.

*looks at screen name*

*looks at post*

*looks back at screen name*

I am shocked... shocked! ...that you would arrive at that conclusion! ;) :p

[ToddG]

Dual wielding?

I'm trying so hard not to make a discharge joke...

[fuse]

I find that strange, but a lot of what the younger generation does is strange to me.

you pretty much asked for it

http://i.imgur.com/WhYoZ.gif