Help Recovering Subgun Stance Addict Use AR15

[Sanch]

I learned how to shoot AR15s a while back with nose to charging handle on A2 iron sights. And I’d run the buttstock fully collapsed if wearing armor or one notch out if no armor. I bought into the magpul AFG back in the day and pulled the gun into my pec using a squared off sub gun stance. I later got aimpoints with full cowitness which enabled me to continue a tactical turtle hunched stance.

I took a few carbine classes back in the day and they were all poor instructor to student ratios in retrospect, I didn’t know better. Offhand I think it was like 30:1 for most of my classes, running 2 firing lines, and I was never corrected and I think this style of shooting 15 to 2o years ago this was considered okay.

Fast forward to present and while I still think my sub gun shooting style is fine for me as a civilian, everyone else has moved on to running longer buttstocks with head upright. I used to think it was just a competition thing which I’m not interested in competing but now I realize I’m the asshole all along.

So I went out and bought a magpul fixed buttstock, which is about an A1 length, and I bought a unity 2.26” aimpoint mount because also I want to use an aimpoint under dual tube NODs. I picked up a KAG mini foregrip thingie.

Shooting feels really weird but it’s understandable since I was shooting subgun style for so long. I’m open to change now after being resistant for a while. I’ll get some professional instruction soon using more modern methods but want to set up the carbine and get some dry work in.

Here’s what I’m wondering:

Any tips on shooting with the 2.26” aimpoint mount because I can’t get a good cheek weld anymore.

Am I being stupid for picking up a fixed magpul A1 stock to play with? I am reading that’s the length people should be running their adjustable stock to generally, and new armor plates are cut different, and I’m not putting the buttstock on my pec anymore. I like the durability and simplicity. One less thing to think about, unless it’s really really suggested I go to an adjustable stock. My current adjustable stock is the first gen UBR which people seem to hate.

What kind of foreend system should I be using? Seems like tons of options and I backordered a MAWL laser so I need something that lets me manipulate laser and light. I’m going to order a magpul mini straight foregrip for $20 and then I’ll have most options to play with since I already have AFG, KAG and Mlok mini AFG. I like the idea of the mini vert foregrip using a half-on grip.

Any tips from other sub-gun stance shooters turned modern day battlefield studs using upright stances and longer buttstocks?

[M2CattleCo]

2.26” is tall. I’ve done 1.55”-KAC Skyscraper and like 1.93” best with an Aimpoint Micro. The big Aimpoints I like about 1.7”.

I was a NTCH guy for a long time and stayed proficient with irons. I kept the stock on the 1st click out on a Colt tube (about the 2nd click out on a 6 position). With a short 7” handguard and a VFG used as an AFG, I was comfortable and did fine. It’s a very compressed, square stance, works very well with tall (taller than lower 1/3) optic mounts, and it keeps the center of mass of the carbine closer to you and is very quick to transition.

What I dislike about running a stock short is that with one hand, your controlling the whole thing with the grip, and even with a more vertical grip, it cramps my elbow and wrist and is fatiguing.

I like to adjust my stock to hit the crook of my elbow with my arm bent at 90 degrees. That allows me to roll my strong hand in and pull the stock tight into my bicep and the gun is a lot easier to control. It also gets the stock lower at high port and gives more control then too.

Ditching back up irons, and pretty much irons in general has allowed me to focus on performance without looking back.

This is where I’m at right now. Not much different than 10 years ago, but there’s been a lot of short lived things in-between.


https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-LHpK2Dv/0/X2/i-LHpK2Dv-X2.jpg

[Sig_Fiend]

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear but, I'd put a hold on buying any more gear and get yourself to a carbine class with a reputable instructor. The class announcements (https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?8-Other-Class-Announcements) forum is a good place to start.

Starting with a hardware solution to a software problem is not the most effective place to start. Occasionally someone will get it right or get lucky starting there. That's probably the exception to the rule. Here's the thing, starting with the hardware side is an endless rabbit hole. Depending on a person's personality type, it's also potentially a recipe for paralysis by analysis. For example, I could ask you how soon are you really going to get NVGs? It might be quite some time (I'm just making this up). As such, I could recommend that what you really need is a 1.93" mount to split the difference, feel more natural, and get you up to speed quicker. That could be valid, but it could also send you down a rabbit hole for several months and derail any actual progress in technique.

The above was just a made up example, so don't take that as an actual recommendation. ;) I say all this because, while you're asking a software question, based on your story it sounds like you're jumping down a hardware rabbit hole with all the accessories you're ordering and swapping out. I mean, you just ordered a $3K laser... but you're asking what rail system to get? Not trying to be a jerk but, you literally just paid for 2 cases of 5.56 at today's prices, and 2-5 training classes, depending on instructor and round count. Really think about that. Speaking as someone OCD and that's a self-proclaimed SME in paralysis by analysis, man I'm just trying to save you a lot of hassle and expense. ;)

With a good course, a solid instructor will put you through drills and setup "golden nugget" moments. Those will be invaluable to you in learning better and more competent decision making to begin answering these questions for yourself.

[theJanitor]

My stock is 11" from the end of the receiver, and I use the 2.26" unity. and I've ditched the irons, too. I'm pretty squared up, but you probably just need to get used to the jaw-weld. Not a cheek-weld

[Caballoflaco]

Keep at it. It can take a minute to get used to a new technique if it’s different than what your used to. You can also try building up the stock with some taped on foam pad or cardboard to see if one of magpul’s cheek risers would be worth buying.

[LJP]

My advice, worth exactly what you paid for it... go take a carbine class with Bill Rapier (AmTac Shooting). I’m nobody, but I’ve done a fair amount of training with the carbine over the past 20 years to include Howe, Pannone, Defoor, and Rapier. I would go with a lower mount for your optic (lower 1/3) and just get a standard adjustable stock that’s adjusted for your correct length of pull. I’m short, so I like one click in. I used NTCH for a long time after taking my first carbine class with Paul Howe, but Defoor blew that completely out of the water. Train with Rapier, he brings a lot to the table in the areas that you identified in your post and he has the operational experience to back up what he’s teaching.

[HCM]

I learned how to shoot AR15s a while back with nose to charging handle on A2 iron sights. And I’d run the buttstock fully collapsed if wearing armor or one notch out if no armor. I bought into the magpul AFG back in the day and pulled the gun into my pec using a squared off sub gun stance. I later got aimpoints with full cowitness which enabled me to continue a tactical turtle hunched stance.

I took a few carbine classes back in the day and they were all poor instructor to student ratios in retrospect, I didn’t know better. Offhand I think it was like 30:1 for most of my classes, running 2 firing lines, and I was never corrected and I think this style of shooting 15 to 2o years ago this was considered okay.

Fast forward to present and while I still think my sub gun shooting style is fine for me as a civilian, everyone else has moved on to running longer buttstocks with head upright. I used to think it was just a competition thing which I’m not interested in competing but now I realize I’m the asshole all along.

So I went out and bought a magpul fixed buttstock, which is about an A1 length, and I bought a unity 2.26” aimpoint mount because also I want to use an aimpoint under dual tube NODs. I picked up a KAG mini foregrip thingie.

Shooting feels really weird but it’s understandable since I was shooting subgun style for so long. I’m open to change now after being resistant for a while. I’ll get some professional instruction soon using more modern methods but want to set up the carbine and get some dry work in.

Here’s what I’m wondering:

Any tips on shooting with the 2.26” aimpoint mount because I can’t get a good cheek weld anymore.

Am I being stupid for picking up a fixed magpul A1 stock to play with? I am reading that’s the length people should be running their adjustable stock to generally, and new armor plates are cut different, and I’m not putting the buttstock on my pec anymore. I like the durability and simplicity. One less thing to think about, unless it’s really really suggested I go to an adjustable stock. My current adjustable stock is the first gen UBR which people seem to hate.

What kind of foreend system should I be using? Seems like tons of options and I backordered a MAWL laser so I need something that lets me manipulate laser and light. I’m going to order a magpul mini straight foregrip for $20 and then I’ll have most options to play with since I already have AFG, KAG and Mlok mini AFG. I like the idea of the mini vert foregrip using a half-on grip.

Any tips from other sub-gun stance shooters turned modern day battlefield studs using upright stances and longer buttstocks?

Take a deep breath, put down the AR, plate carrier, laser, NVG etc you are way over thinking this / way to spun up in tacticool hype.

It’s just like any other rifle.

To improve we often need to start over. Get yourself a 10/22 or equivalent, find an Apple Seed event and focus on basic marksmanship and positional shooting without all the bullshit.

Once you get your mind right, go back to the AR and take training with sone reputable national instructors such as Mime Pantone, Bill Rapier, Steve Fisher etc.

Re: The 2.26 optic mount if you can’t articulate why you are running it, you need to reconsider. Purpose drives gear choices.

[Sanch]

Take a deep breath, put down the AR, plate carrier, laser, NVG etc you are way over thinking this / way to spun up in tacticool hype.

It’s just like any other rifle.

To improve we often need to start over. Get yourself a 10/22 or equivalent, find an Apple Seed event and focus on basic marksmanship and positional shooting without all the bullshit.

Once you get your mind right, go back to the AR and take training with sone reputable national instructors such as Mime Pantone, Bill Rapier, Steve Fisher etc.

Re: The 2.26 optic mount if you can’t articulate why you are running it, you need to reconsider. Purpose drives gear choices.

Thanks for advice on instructor list, I’ll keep a look out for them coming to my area.

A local instructor and SWAT friend independently suggested a 2.26 mount when I mentioned I bought dual tube NODs. I then took a class with the 2.26 mount and NODs. I was able to hit steel at 100 yards easily, with a brilliant splash under NODs but it felt weird without a cheekweld since all of my carbine shooting time date has been NTCH using a super shortened buttstock on my pec.

The purpose for the 2.26 as I understand it is to being the reticle closer up to my NODs field of view. I tried with my lower 1/3 aimpoint and wasn’t able to pickup the dot without weird positioning and a lot of effort.

[HCM]

Thanks for advice on instructor list, I’ll keep a look out for them coming to my area.

A local instructor and SWAT friend independently suggested a 2.26 mount when I mentioned I bought dual tube NODs. I then took a class with the 2.26 mount and NODs. I was able to hit steel at 100 yards easily, with a brilliant splash under NODs but it felt weird without a cheekweld since all of my carbine shooting time date has been NTCH using a super shortened buttstock on my pec.

The purpose for the 2.26 as I understand it is to being the reticle closer up to my NODs field of view. I tried with my lower 1/3 aimpoint and wasn’t able to pickup the dot without weird positioning and a lot of effort.

Seriously, do it with a basic .22 AR if you want but go back to basics at an apple seed before you jump in with Pannonne, Fischer, Brokos, Green Ops etc.

Re: high mounts

The question is primacy.

Does a 2.25' mount fit YOUR needs. Not Instgram needs.

Do you mostly shoot under NODS ? Do you need to be able to do passive aiming under NODS to avoid compromising yourself when fighting NODS equipped enemies ?

If the answer to either or both of these questions is no, then using a laser under NODS and going back to a lower 1/3 co-witness is indicated. If the answer is yes, then a cheek riser is in order.

An example of primacy: The SWAT guys at work have both white lights and PEQ-15's on their rifles. They have the white light mounted forward at the muzzle end of the rail and the PEQ mounted at the back of the rail just in front of the Receiver and RDS.

People who don't understand the "why" have commented that is "wrong" because that is not how the military does it.

But my guys don't do what the military does. They are cops so their priority / likely uses are: Day light, low light under white light, and low light under NODS a distant 3rd.

The military does Low light under NODS, Daylight with white light a distant 3rd. Mission drives the gear.

The original 1.93 mounts were created to clear large IR lasers. the subsequent 2.04 and 2.25 mounts are for passive NOD use and have secondary applications for people who have certain neck / shoulder mobility issues. If those don't apply to you, you cant complain when they don't produce the results you want.

[Sanch]

Re: high mounts

The question is primacy.

Does a 2.25' mount fit YOUR needs. Not Instgram needs.

Do you mostly shoot under NODS ? Do you need to be able to do passive aiming under NODS to avoid compromising yourself when fighting NODS equipped enemies ?

If the answer to either or both of these questions is no, then using a laser under NODS and going back to a lower 1/3 co-witness is indicated. If the answer is yes, then a cheek riser is in order.
.

Yes, interested in passive IR work against NODs equipped enemies. May sound like fantasy but there’s at least some AntiFa buying NODs with their stimmy checks. And newer iPhones can pick up IR really well in the camera so it’s just a matter of someone using their iPhone as a NOD.

Is it likely, no, but it’s also unlikely I’ll need NODs at all. I do have a laser but I want to be able to do passive work, too. Also, I think the need for passive work will increase over time. 20 years ago MIL and PD could shine IR lights and lasers anywhere. Now they can’t. I am not a professional shooter and I see the writing on the wall of more people having NODs and high end cell phone cameras, so I want to learn right now how to shoot passively under NODs, not do something else, and in 5 years when NODs are a bigger threat, change again.

I don’t use Instagram so I’m not sure what anyone there is posting and I’m not posting pics of my gear anywhere. So definitely not doing it to look cool.

Does anyone make cheek risers for fixed AR stocks? For collapsible stock the charging handle would get in the way. The only cheek risers I’ve seen for ARs are dedicated sniper stocks with the riser built in.

[HCM]

Yes, interested in passive IR work against NODs equipped enemies. May sound like fantasy but there’s at least some AntiFa buying NODs with their stimmy checks. And newer iPhones can pick up IR really well in the camera so it’s just a matter of someone using their iPhone as a NOD.

Is it likely, no, but it’s also unlikely I’ll need NODs at all. I do have a laser but I want to be able to do passive work, too.

I don’t use Instagram so I’m not sure what anyone there is posting and I’m not posting pics of my gear anywhere. So definitely not doing it to look cool.

Does anyone make cheek risers for fixed AR stocks? For collapsible stock the charging handle would get in the way. The only cheek risers I’ve seen for ARs are dedicated sniper stocks with the riser built in.

Re: ANTIFA and iPhones - watch to the end.


https://youtu.be/ADRb-tEL2wQ

A variety risers and cheek pieces are available for fixed stock.

Both magpul and Larue make risers for the magpul CTR/MOE stocks.

The Larue riser is, imaginatively enough named ....the RISR.

https://www.larue.com/products/larue-tactical-risrtm-reciprocating-inline-stock-riser/

[Default.mp3]

Yes, interested in passive IR work against NODs equipped enemies. May sound like fantasy but there’s at least some AntiFa buying NODs with their stimmy checks. And newer iPhones can pick up IR really well in the camera so it’s just a matter of someone using their iPhone as a NOD.https://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/nevermind_nathan_fillion.gif


For collapsible stock the charging handle would get in the way.https://i.imgur.com/ohDKCIO.jpg
https://www.larue.com/products/larue-tactical-risrtm-reciprocating-inline-stock-riser/

Shit, run an A5 RE and the stock all the way out, and you can probably use just the regular cheek riser just fine.

Or, you know... get a lower mount. Plenty of folks get by with passive aiming use 1.93" and 2.04". Or shit, get an EOTech. Much more optimized for use with NODs, and the bigger window makes it more forgiving to head position.

[WobblyPossum]

If you just want to spend your hard-earned money and have fun, that’s one thing. I fully support that. Take a carbine class from one of the folks already recommended to you and buy your toys based on the info you learn there. It sounds like you’ve got the disposable income for it.

If you’re actually concerned about fighting NV/laser equipped opponents outside of a LE/MIL context, I don’t know what to tell you, man. What situation do you envision where you’re going to be shooting it out with the ANTIFAs under NODS? Do you carry your NODS and night fighting carbine with you everywhere? Or, like most people outside of LE/MIL who own this stuff, do you just keep it at home and take it out for fun, training, or hog slaying? If it’s the latter, what’s the situation you’re preparing for where you’re going to be defending your home with your NV setup but you need to be worried about the opposition being able to detect your IR laser? You defending yourself from the local SWAT team?

[Sanch]

If you’re actually concerned about fighting NV/laser equipped opponents outside of a LE/MIL context, I don’t know what to tell you, man. What situation do you envision where you’re going to be shooting it out with the ANTIFAs under NODS?

I didn’t say anything about fighting laser equipped opponents. I’m talking about people holding an iPhone up, with the camera on, and using that as a form of NODs. If you haven’t seen what the newest iPhone cameras are capable of at night, you’d be wildly surprised. And in a few years, the camera tech will get better and cheaper and be in less high end phones.

Or just people buying PVS14s for $3k and holding them up to their eyes. I have a handful of friends in mil and police, and when I bring the topic of night vision up to them, they’re all concerned about bad guys having access, more and more as time passes.

[Nephrology]

Given your intended use, it might be worth revisiting the subgun. This setup seemed to work well for purposes very similar to what you describe. May have been a bit early for the iPhones though.

https://i.imgur.com/1nscJzW.jpg

[WobblyPossum]

Or just people buying PVS14s for $3k and holding them up to their eyes. I have a handful of friends in mil and police, and when I bring the topic of night vision up to them, they’re all concerned about bad guys having access, more and more as time passes.

Right. That’s definitely a concern for their context. Does their context apply to you? LE/MIL people go into the homes of the bad guys and actively hunt those bad guys in an effort to capture or kill them. When your team is running NV and lasers and you’re about to hit some guy’s house on a search warrant, that person having NV capability is a concern because it might restrict your use of your IR lasers. What’s that got to do with what you envision doing with your equipment? Unless I’ve misunderstood all of your posts and you’re an LE guy who has to buy all his own equipment, what does it matter to you if ANTIFA has NV capability to the point that you’re setting up a carbine to prioritize the ability to passively aim through your optic without needing your laser?

[Default.mp3]

I didn’t say anything about fighting laser equipped opponents. I’m talking about people holding an iPhone up, with the camera on, and using that as a form of NODs. If you haven’t seen what the newest iPhone cameras are capable of at night, you’d be wildly surprised. And in a few years, the camera tech will get better and cheaper and be in less high end phones.

Or just people buying PVS14s for $3k and holding them up to their eyes. I have a handful of friends in mil and police, and when I bring the topic of night vision up to them, they’re all concerned about bad guys having access, more and more as time passes.I'm, uh, not sure you understand how cellphone night mode works. They utilize computational photography, not some kind of IR camera; cellphone cameras typically have decent enough IR performance, IIRC, but the manufacturers specifically put in a filter on the lens assembly to remove IR, as it would give pictures incorrect colors and shading. The high end phones do much better because they have better cameras in general with better light gathering and more sensitive sensors that gives the algorithms more data to work with to generate a more detailed picture... which has nothing to do with IR performance (and typically take awhile to generate, anyway, a couple seconds to gather the light, and another couple to do the computation). I know my Pixel 2 XL, while getting a bit long in tooth, is still a pretty good low-light shooter, and it can barely pick up my pointer and illuminator even when I've got them cranked up to full power (I have a full-power unit) pointing at a white wall a few feet a way; when in eye-safe mode, nothing shows up. There are many much cheaper IR cameras out there (just look at any of the cloud-based security cameras that have a low-light mode), but here's the thing: why are you running around with your IR laser on for no reason? Emissions discipline should be a thing, even if all you're doing is hog hunting. And what's your plan during the day, when they also have the means to observe in the visible spectrum (i.e., functional eyes), just like you?

Also, why is your opponent running around with an iPhone trying to use it as NODs? Sure, an argument can be made for LE or military for folks using that as an IR detection tool, but AFAIK, that's largely in a static observation technique; it's not like you can navigate at night with that set-up. And if that's your concern, then, uh, why are you trying to kill people that are conducting static observation?

Ultimately, let's ignore your ridiculous threat assessment; you can still easily get around all this by simply having an night optimized rifle, and not grabbing it when it's daytime. Keep a 2.33" or 2.26" mounted optic on the night optimized rifle, throw on a 1.93" or 2.04" mounted optic for a GP gun that can be pressed into use with NODs. Or maybe you'll find that 1.93" or 2.04" works just fine for you for passive aiming, as everyone's body works differently. I was able to use my 1.93" setup to aim to decent effect under NODs, when I was opforing against NODs equipped opponents.

[Lost River]

You are being good advice. Some of it from professionals who do this stuff for a living and you are dismissing it.

That is the point where I normally stop giving advice to people.

[Sig_Fiend]

Until proven otherwise, I'm just going to start assuming this is a troll account.

[Sig_Fiend]

In hindsight, that was kind of a dick thing for me to say. Sent you a PM Sanch.