AIWB now legal in all divisions?

[Bergeron]

I'm not into flaming, but let me offer my perspective on this. USPSA/IPSC is a sport that has significantly advanced handgun technology and shooting skills. While some USPSA shooters still use revolvers and 1911s (and 10 round mags), the sport also includes the most modern guns, with high capacity magazines, red dots, and even PCCs. It shows that these types of firearms are owned for sporting purposes, as well as for self-defense.


Yes, indeed. While I mostly shoot Single Stack with a crusty (and primitive) old Colt, I really like USPSA as a driver of technology and of skill. Lights on pistols are becoming much more ubiquitous, AIWB is probably how 50% or more of shooters are carrying, and the recent release of Enigma demonstrates how far and fast we are experimenting with carry techniques. The message I get from the rule change is that USPSA is focused on being an arena for experimentation.

[GJM]

Thanks for the translation. I admit that was little terse.

I'm going to experiment with a magnetic 1st mag pouch, at 10:00.

68645
https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/daa-bullets-out-magnetic-pouch

I think that looks better as a magnetic mag pouch but would be harder to use for a pick up mag start. My wife and I have that and the traditional one.

[Clusterfrack]

I think that looks better as a magnetic mag pouch but would be harder to use for a pick up mag start. My wife and I have that and the traditional one.

Agree. I got both.

[olstyn]

I recall some dude who had a hissy fit because we older folks weren't taking a knee and taking the penalty. He might LOSE! The penalty wasn't enough. So with bum knees, titanium knees, exoskeleton on your knees - you might lose a club match to them.

Isn't the penalty (I assume you're referring to not going through a Cooper tunnel or similar) something like multiple seconds? If you're taking that penalty and he still can't beat you, then it's not because you didn't go through the tunnel. :)


This is probably irrelevant but a speed issue - we had a fun knife stage at the IDPA match. You had to first engage the target with your knife and then draw, etc. Some folks didn't have a knife - shame! Some guys just stabbed it with the point as fast as they could to get to the gun. Didn't even penetrate - save time! I and my LEO friend (who name is Tim and runs a Shadow - huh?) - we eviscerated the SOB, even though we ran up the clock.

That is quite an attitude difference. When playing games, I tend to game things to the best of my ability. I think that in that scenario, I'd likely go for a single stab...and leave the knife in the target, because that would be faster than pulling it back out and stowing it. Might be beneficial to do the knife part with your off hand so that you can start drawing your gun immediately, too. Anything else is just putting myself at a competitive disadvantage. Games get played within the parameters of the game, and I would apply that attitude to IDPA if I played that game too - any real-world scenario you'd be justified in stabbing someone in, you'd also be justified in shooting them, so why go for the knife first? It's purely a "stage prop," so treat it as such.

[olstyn]

I shoot USPSA, and I carry.

Same, and I'm sure it's true of lots of other people in this thread.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In da street, in da real world, you can get entangled, someone can have their hand on your gun. Thus, poking them with a sharp thing works. Also, recall that in the original Bram Stoker book, Dracula (https://www.amazon.com/Dracula-Bram-Stoker-ebook/dp/B077PTRGLD/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3ERPG3DDLMSHH&dchild=1&keywords=beam+stoker%27s+dracula&qid=1615402941&sprefix=Beam+stoker%2Caps%2C219&sr=8-3) was killed by a Texan with a Bowie knife, IIRC.

As BBI mentioned, your gun hand can get screwed up and you are close in. Thus, the knife. Of course, being me, I hurt myself in knife class and have to go to phys. therapy, get yelled at by my wife for being a silly old coot doing these things, explain to liberal arts faculty that the thing on my arm is from knife class (Horrors!).

A small poke might not do it, thus I played the longer game of practicing something useful. However, a small poke might. I was an expert in a case where (mentioned this before) where stud crosses the path of an old man after a fender bender. Stud puffs up to old man who takes paring knife, sticks it into his chest and stud drops dead. Maybe he practiced it in IDPA?

So, shaving seconds isn't as important to me as running the stage in a sensible way. Of course, slow old me isn't winning squat, so I have a wrong attitude. Until my footsie heals, I will stagger from position to position. Xrays on Monday.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Same, and I'm sure it's true of lots of other people in this thread.

I think I once asked if USPSA published a survey of carry guns, like IDPA did - and someone had a seizure about the GAME!!! Don't ask that you heathen SOB!

[Zincwarrior]

EDIT: DERP NOW I GET IT. This a method where you have staged mags and can just slap them on. (that would be interesting)

[cheby]

I've heard that if you buy a Surefire WML this week, you'll get some 511 vest for free.

[Caballoflaco]

There was a time in shooting matches when we wore onions on our belts, because that was the style....now you’re using magnets, but you can’t use a magnet to slick your hair back like you can with a half an onion so you’re all going to show up at the dance hall with messy hair and dames don’t like a man with messy hair who doesnt smell like onions because the onions drown out the smell of the manure since back then all the dances were in barns but if a dame wouldn’t dance with you you could sneak over to the sheep stalls but if the sheep had been sheared you didn’t have anything to really hold onto which is why old man Miller used to grease his pigs because he had that boy who was always trying to grab them pigs for biblical reasons and no matter how hard he beat him he was always out there in a week or two trying that pig grabbing again but that new petroleum kept the pigs mostly safe from the miller boy...............

[Sal Picante]

He was kidding.

Face it, each division has its quirks. The Open guys never reset and tape because they are loving on their magazines. Production and Single Stack guys are collecting all their magazines off the stage. CO guys are trying to see if their dots are still functioning, and the appendix shooters are reminding all the other shooters how special they are.

:D

[YVK]

Same, and I'm sure it's true of lots of other people in this thread.

Because this is p-f. I think GJM had lunch with like 14 people after a match one year, and two were carrying. Even more indicative than that: all the matches I shot across the state and area, including Nationals, I am yet to see a dedicated area for participants to remove and secure their concealed guns.

[GJM]

Because this is p-f. I think GJM had lunch with like 14 people after a match one year, and two were carrying. Even more indicative than that: all the matches I shot across the state and area, including Nationals, I am yet to see a dedicated area for participants to remove and secure their concealed guns.

Not surprising — us serious timmies know the substantial risk of constantly rechambering cartridges.

[cheby]

I think we're all doomed. Gamers don't carry, timmies carry but they can't hit shit. No hope.

[Clusterfrack]

Because this is p-f. I think GJM had lunch with like 14 people after a match one year, and two were carrying. Even more indicative than that: all the matches I shot across the state and area, including Nationals, I am yet to see a dedicated area for participants to remove and secure their concealed guns.

That's been my experience as well. I and my buddies rolled into Las Vegas on Oct 1st at 10:15pm after Production Nationals, and found ourselves driving past the Mandalay Bay during the massacre. From what we could hear on our scanner app, it was a multi-shooter terrorist event in progress. We fully expected people with AKs to be shooting people on the streets. Guess who was the ONLY person carrying? Everyone else's gear was packed and locked in the trunk.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I don't know about that, in one of my last IDPA carbine matches - I was three points down for the entire match. When we went to lunch after a match, I'd say that most carried. We had to go to to a berm and load up under the eyes of an SO. We were advised not to load up in the car as there was an ND at a previous USPSA match, when someone did that. Lots of law folks shooting and they certainly geared up. Most heavily armed set of folks eating tacos, enchiladas and quesadillas that day. I guess I'm a timmie as I did all that 'tactical' training and am just starting out in USPSA with a version of my EDC setup and gun. Oh, the shame.

Hey, I know the difference between USPSA and IDPA. The range had its toilets at a significant hike up a hill. You could pee in the woods, though on side of the parking spaces. However, we start a match and the director tells us that make sure if you drop a load, go up the toilet. Seems someone went to the front of his truck and left a pile and TP. We were shocked, we wouldn't do that. The SO said it was yesterday's USPSA crowd.

Let's all get along. Back to AIWB, good or bad?

[cheby]

Back to AIWB, good or bad?

Well it depends on the size of your... flashlight, obviously

[NoTacTravis]

I think I once asked if USPSA published a survey of carry guns, like IDPA did - and someone had a seizure about the GAME!!! Don't ask that you heathen SOB!

You really seem to have a big issue with USPSA competitors and spend a lot of time feeling like an outsider slighted by them looking for an excuse to turn any word from them into a grave insult. You must be a blast to squad with.

A word on spending extra time stabbing targets while scoffing at a gamer barely penetrating with their stab but doing better on the declared exercise. Gamers are winning by doing better under the rules of engagement than you are. Chances are that in a "real world" or any other version that you claim to be training in, the gamer would also outperform you under those rules of engagement as well.

Why? Because they on the fly, evaluate their circumstances and look for an edge to win. They are closer to the "win at all costs", adapt to the nuance of the situation, and overcome mindset than you are with your extra stabbiness larping at cardboard. You are assuming that they would not find a similar edge to prevail in all other situations as well.

I similarly question your "but my knees, I can't Copper tunnel" in one sentence while "slash the cardboard to bits because... reality" inconsistency. If you are training for da streetz to the extent that you injure yourself in a knife class, you can't figure out how to negotiate a low barrier with bad knees? What if that's the only way out of the mass shooting event, will you declare "but ma knees!" to the bad guy?

I really don't understand how someone can be so reality based doing it for real but is all excuses and hard feelings when asked to compete hard.


In BJJ there's always some new "for realsies" guy that wants to start throwing mimed punches when grappling cause that's so real and they don't respect the sport. And it's always because they are uneducated that people are training a specific skill and that them interjecting their own agenda is just slowing down their progression at building meaningful skill. And the good grapplers will beat them at that exercise too when the rules are opened up.

To me, it sounds like you need a trophy for stabbing the target harder and come on here to award yourself one when you should really be focusing on getting better at the test of shooting skill. But your constant perceived insults will likely limit your progress there and give you an excuse not to properly test yourself.


Out of curiousity though, you seem to be a "been there done that" guy who has been shooting for a long time and prefers IDPA. Just so that I can know where you are coming from, what is your time on the 5x5 stand and shoot IDPA classifier?

[JCN]

Well, shit man.

I got your stabby stab flashlight right here!


68656

(Just trying to lighten the mood, it ain't that serious... this too shall pass).

[cheby]

Well, shit man.

I got your stabby stab flashlight right here!


68656

(Just trying to lighten the mood, it ain't that serious... this too shall pass).
It's funny because it's actually real. I have seen those bayonets mounted on handguns for real. I guess it's coming to USPSA soon because some "people want" it, you know

[Sal Picante]

Well, shit man.

I got your stabby stab flashlight right here!


68656

(Just trying to lighten the mood, it ain't that serious... this too shall pass).

Meh... The pizza cutter attachment was way more useful.

:D

[Glenn E. Meyer]

NoTac - this is an internet conversation, chill out. I don't have a big issue with anyone. Nor am I offended by anyone's position on a truly personal level. Who isn't afraid to compete hard? However, I'm not hurting myself in a game. That's stupid. In a training scenario, yeah, I will take some risks and have. I'm sure you are a delightful person on a squad.

Was the knife thing stupid for a game - perhaps, but if it's a game I'm going to use it with gusto. I should have described the machete stage.

[Clusterfrack]

Was the knife thing stupid for a game - perhaps, but if it's a game I'm going to use it with gusto. I should have described the machete stage.

Glenn at a match:
68658

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I hit the target at the junction of neck and collar bone and split it in half. Some guys poked the target with point of the machete and dropped it. Wussies - did I take more time. Damn straight but that SOB knew what he was up against. My LEO squad buddy (named Tim) did the same. I wasn't winning the match but I had fun. Next time, I will put a flashlight on the machete. BTW, just bought a mahogany cane from the Amish with a big brass bulbous handle to whack raving wild beasts when we take walks. I'll have my wife take a timer with us, so I know when to start defending us.

Once had my knee go out when going to kneel behind a barrel, went prone and finished the stage. It was an ouch though. Fell asleep in the MRI as they were scoping the knees. Didn't carry in the MRI room as they have been known to shoot your gun off on its own.

Let's just relax. Big old deer in the backyard last night, looking in the window. Life is ok.

[cheby]

The reality is PF is gonna PF. The gap between competition and tactical worlds here is real and it is growing. Unfortunately.

[Zincwarrior]

It's funny because it's actually real. I have seen those bayonets mounted on handguns for real. I guess it's coming to USPSA soon because some "people want" it, you know



Oh man thats a CZ attachment. Cue the CZ vs. Tangfolio elitists, and of course Sig will come out with one, but then drop it for one with two blades six months later...

[GJM]

NEWS FLASH — back to the important stuff, I understand that a USPSA guy has figured out how to source thin batteries with a heavy shield, that maintain a light’s original lumens AND add four more ounces to the light.

[cheby]

NEWS FLASH — back to the important stuff, I understand that a USPSA guy has figured out how to source thin batteries with a heavy shield, that maintain a light’s original lumens AND add four more ounces to the light.
Here's how one quick decision creates the unexpected consequences. Tiny keychain flashlight with a brass mount. Can't wait to see it. Ugh

[Eyesquared]

The extra heavy batteries and frameweight with keychain light are both perfect examples of why there needs to be a comment period before rules go into effect. Regardless what people think of the board, I seriously doubt this is what they intended. Even if they change the rules back now, it would be kind of unfair to people who have gone out and bought flashlights and new holsters. It should not be this hard to get the rules right the first time. Same situation as with the slide lightening for CO, exposing this stuff to the whole membership leads to people considering stuff the board probably didn't consider.

[cheby]

The extra heavy batteries and frameweight with keychain light are both perfect examples of why there needs to be a comment period before rules go into effect. Regardless what people think of the board, I seriously doubt this is what they intended. Even if they change the rules back now, it would be kind of unfair to people who have gone out and bought flashlights and new holsters. It should not be this hard to get the rules right the first time. Same situation as with the slide lightening for CO, exposing this stuff to the whole membership leads to people considering stuff the board probably didn't consider.

Exactly, I wish it was some testing period, say, 6 months restricted to level 1 matches only.

[GJM]

I suspect the guys shooting polymer Glock, M&P, Canik and Walther pistols are delighted with this change AND more gaming on batteries, while it is the guys with heavy guns who wish this was debated for months and years.

[GJM]

Here is my wife’s Legion before the three ounce tungsten grip weight that is due to arrive later today.

68663

And my Walther with the light.

68664

[littlejerry]

Here is my wife’s Legion before the three ounce tungsten grip weight that is due to arrive later today.

68663

And my Walther with the light.

68664

Gamer.

[Eyesquared]

I suspect the guys shooting polymer Glock, M&P, Canik and Walther pistols are delighted with this change AND more gaming on batteries, while it is the guys with heavy guns who wish this was debated for months and years.

Not sure what this is supposed to imply. I am 100% serious when I say that I wish every major USPSA rules change had a comment period, including changes I agree with or benefited from. Nobody is suggesting a comments period a year long, either.

[Norville]

NEWS FLASH — back to the important stuff, I understand that a USPSA guy has figured out how to source thin batteries with a heavy shield, that maintain a light’s original lumens AND add four more ounces to the light.

Experimenting in my basement, an X300 will emit light with one battery and one dummy cell. My dummy is aluminum and weighs 16 grams, the same as a real battery. Brass will weigh 3 times as much, so a brass dummy will add an ounce.

Using a Li Ion cell will probably keep the lumens close to stock.

I’m going to get some 5/8” brass rod and get ahold of my local machinist. I’ll be rich!

But nowhere as cool as the bayonet mount...


Edit to add, forward pouch w bullets facing out feels good. Need to work some Burkett reloads to be sure it’s better.

[GJM]

Not sure what this is supposed to imply. I am 100% serious when I say that I wish every major USPSA rules change had a comment period, including changes I agree with or benefited from. Nobody is suggesting a comments period a year long, either.

Let’s assume we implemented your change and this is the comment period — what are your thoughts on allowing a light or other means of increasing weight to level the playing field between lightweight plastic guns and the heavy weight competition specific pistols in CO?

[olstyn]

exposing this stuff to the whole membership leads to people considering stuff the board probably didn't consider.

No question that would be better. Concerns might still get dismissed, but having an opportunity to at least raise them would be good.

[YVK]

I feel bad for all Tanfo Stock 2 shooters. All that money and no rail. It would be funny if people showed up with poly guns weighted up to heavier than all steel guns with bull barrels.

[JCN]

Gamer.

Lol! Over maximum weight!

68666

[Caballoflaco]

I feel bad for all Tanfo Stock 2 shooters. All that money and no rail. It would be funny if people showed up with poly guns weighted up to heavier than all steel guns with bull barrels.

The advantage of a weighted plastic gun is that the weight is further below the barrel which increases the moment of inertia and allows for a lighter weight to have a greater effect on dampening the recoil of the pistol.



Steel framed guns have been obsoleted overnight.....by sciences and stuff

[littlejerry]

Lol! Over maximum weight!

68666

I'm waiting for someone to strap a D-cell battery to their gat with a bulb and 2 wires taped to it.

[olstyn]

I feel bad for all Tanfo Stock 2 shooters. All that money and no rail. It would be funny if people showed up with poly guns weighted up to heavier than all steel guns with bull barrels.

No doubt somebody will create a 58.9 ounce Glock simply because they can. What will be truly comical is if somebody breaks the dust cover off of their Glock because the rail isn't meant to support a pound and a half.

[JCN]

Lol! Over maximum weight!

68666

In just goofing off doing transitions with that setup... the thing that kicks me in the head, not subtly is HOW INCREDIBLY FORGIVING the gun becomes with all kinds of fucked up trigger slaps. Before, the dot would be bouncing around if hitting the trigger sideways... now, nothing. I think that's pretty big proof of concept. And it's no heavier than an Open gun.

[Eyesquared]

Let’s assume we implemented your change and this is the comment period — what are your thoughts on allowing a light or other means of increasing weight to level the playing field between lightweight plastic guns and the heavy weight competition specific pistols in CO?

I think the rule as implemented needs work because it remains to be seen if the playing field will be leveled. What if it turns out that a Legion with a TLR1 is still better than a normal polymer frame gun with a TLR1?

IMO we should set the weight limit somewhere semi-reasonable (not 59oz) and let people make their guns heavy within the weight limit. Make it so the only restrictions for CO and prod are the approved gun list, respective mag limits, the weight limit, trigger weight, and fitting in the box for prod, because I think most of the other things people modify don't really matter in terms of creating a clear cut advantage. I'm tempted to add no magwells to that list but I think even that doesn't really matter that much. The caveat to all this is that big changes should be communicated long in advance.

[JCN]

NEWS FLASH — back to the important stuff, I understand that a USPSA guy has figured out how to source thin batteries with a heavy shield, that maintain a light’s original lumens AND add four more ounces to the light.

I own a lot of 3V coin batteries and have copper tape. I just ordered some tungsten pinewood derby weights....

[JCN]

For the people saying "now it's going to be a MUST-HAVE" accessory... well, there were a number of high finishers at Nats that didn't get the memo that they had the wrong guns to start with....

If you want to prep to the rules, prep to the rules and understand it's a moving target.

Otherwise run what you brung. Just my $0.02

[Eyesquared]

If you want to prep to the rules, prep to the rules and understand it's a moving target.

You say that like it has to be that way but it clearly doesn't. Do we actually need to change the rules every 6 months? There's obviously a more reasonable middle ground somewhere between the rules never changing and surprise announcing big changes twice per year.

[cheby]

Let’s assume we implemented your change and this is the comment period — what are your thoughts on allowing a light or other means of increasing weight to level the playing field between lightweight plastic guns and the heavy weight competition specific pistols in CO?
If I was the king for a day I would restrict the weight to exclude guns like stock 2, Shadow 2, and such. CARRY Optic means something different than 50 oz guns.

[Eyesquared]

If I was the king for a day I would restrict the weight to exclude guns like stock 2, Shadow 2, and such. CARRY Optic means something different than 50 oz guns.

Even as a Legion shooter I would accept this if it was communicated far enough in advance. Hell, I would be happy if my main division was one where everyone shot light polymer frame guns. Let me shoot my stupid heavy gun for a year or 2 more and I'll switch back to a normal gun. Just don't pull the rug from under people.

[GJM]

I was speaking with YVK about proposed rule changes and I think he would be favor of having a ratio of trigger weight to gun weight. In other words, a 30 ounce Walther could have a 3 pound or heavier trigger, where a 50 ounce Legion could have a 5 pound or heavier trigger. Maybe we should extend that to limited too. What do you guys think?

[olstyn]

I was speaking with YVK about proposed rule changes and I think he would be favor of having a ratio of trigger weight to gun weight. In other words, a 30 ounce Walther could have a 3 pound or heavier trigger, where a 50 ounce Legion could have a 5 pound or heavier trigger. Maybe we should extend that to limited too. What do you guys think?

That's not insane as a base concept, but unless you're going to get every club to buy the same trigger pull gauge and teach everybody the exact correct way to use them to get consistent results, I think you're going to have a tough time with enforcement.

[YVK]

I was speaking with YVK about proposed rule changes and I think he would be favor of having a ratio of trigger weight to gun weight. In other words, a 30 ounce Walther could have a 3 pound or heavier trigger, where a 50 ounce Legion could have a 5 pound or heavier trigger. Maybe we should extend that to limited too. What do you guys think?

Yeah, but because lighter guns are advantageous in steel shoots and steel challenge, rules for those matches should be inverse, heavier guns get lighter triggers.

[NoTacTravis]

Binge reading this thread is my new Tiger King.

[YVK]

If I was the king for a day I would restrict the weight to exclude guns like stock 2, Shadow 2, and such. CARRY Optic means something different than 50 oz guns.

+1, but I would exclude them from Production too. What we're seeing today is directly related to letting equipment race into Production and in any division where approved gun list is based off Production list. CO was restricted to 35 oz, wth optic, on inception and nobody wanted to shoot it when only Production allowed people shoot CZs and Tanfos.



K, I am gonna go chill and then dry fire my lightweight 43 oz Shadow 2.

[olstyn]

+1, but I would exclude them from Production too.

I tend to agree that taking the "race guns" out of Production would be a good thing, but oh boy would a wide swath of people raise holy hell.

[Bergeron]

What we're seeing today is directly related to letting equipment race into Production and in any division where approved gun list is based off Production list. CO was restricted to 35 oz, wth optic, on inception and nobody wanted to shoot it when only Production allowed people shoot CZs and Tanfos.


Well said, and precise! I'm happy schelpping around a 5" steel 1911 in the low-mid 40s, but that is 100% as heavy as I want to go, and then, only because it is so thin. I think there's real value in low weight limits, and allowing technology and technique to make up the difference. A 60oz Open gun, with its 170mm magazine is all fine and well (as is a similar Limited gun), and fascinating, but super-heavy Production and CO is dull.

In all honesty, I'm just really glad USPSA exists, and gives me an additional opportunity to shoot and reason to develop my shooting skill. I'll shoot, no matter the rules, and be happy, but I think rules discussons are valuable and worth having.

[JCN]

Action pistol 22LR where everyone has stock LCPIIs!

Screw these heavy guns and their fancy centerfire ammunition!

Honestly, I expect the BOD to issue a clarification in the next few weeks with changing maximum CO weight to 47oz or something like that.

I'm not rushing out to change my weight setup just yet. I'm fine until other people shake out the details and BSPS and DA offer a CO flashlight package in a year or two.

[cheby]

Yeah, but because lighter guns are advantageous in steel shoots and steel challenge, rules for those matches should be inverse, heavier guns get lighter triggers.

I can only imagine the range officers at the chrono stage trying to do this calculation. They would start dropping like flies

[GJM]

They really needed to think these rules through better.


https://youtu.be/KRuvF9Dk7YU

[Norville]

I own a lot of 3V coin batteries and have copper tape. I just ordered some tungsten pinewood derby weights....

The weights in an AR carbine buffer are just about perfect, 2 steel with 2 magnets and some tape to make up the diameter. The pinewood derby weight tape might be perfect...

[Clusterfrack]

They really needed to think these rules through better.


https://youtu.be/KRuvF9Dk7YU

Hahahahaha! That’s awesome.

[Bucky]

Magnets allowed in all divisions now?


Yes sir.

OK, guess I’ll grab another magnet then. Been using one on my Lim/Open rig for the last several years.


Could someone please explain to the FNG (me) what the magnet is used for?

We have a club that is obsessed with “pickup stages”. This is a stage that requires you to start with all your magazines on a table or barrel. Magnets are much easier / faster to secure spare magazines than trying to stick them into a pouch.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I guess the machete stage would be the cutting edge of training/competition with magnets in common use?

[RJ]

68692

On topic: Are most of the objections to the new rules changes relating to an increased weight limit? I'm confused because the March USPSA rules change summary only mentions App D5 Item 18, relating to increasing max single stack weight from 43 to 45 oz? Or did I miss something other change that is causing the unrest?

[Eyesquared]

68692

On topic: Are most of the objections to the new rules changes relating to an increased weight limit? I'm confused because the March USPSA rules change summary only mentions App D5 Item 18, relating to increasing max single stack weight from 43 to 45 oz? Or did I miss something other change that is causing the unrest?

They increased the weight limit for prod and CO to 59oz last March. From what some area directors have said the intent was really to have effectively no weight limit.

[GJM]

With this rule change, we are going to learn a lot more about the effect of weight generally, and specifically how weight from a flashlight impacts shooting performance. I know I never tested a light before in terms of performance.

[NoTacTravis]

With this rule change, we are going to learn a lot more about the effect of weight generally, and specifically how weight from a flashlight impacts shooting performance. I know I never tested a light before in terms of performance.


THeHumbleMarksman put out some testing last year on the effects of adding weight to a Glock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgUiRoa1GhE


Then followed it up with a one comparing TLR7 vs TLR1HL (again on a Glock) on recoil reduction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsyjt3Idss0&t=599s

Not a comprehensive look across metal guns but definitely laid some good starting groundwork (IMO) for effects of adding weight and lights on recoil, transition, drill times, and group sizes.

[cheby]

So it looks like people started experimenting with the flashlights. Some are reporting the low hits in recoil especially on low probability targets. I am not surprised by the low hits. It is a common problem with the nose heavy guns. The heavier displaced weight up front results in the muzzle dipping low when the slide snaps forward. It can be overcome in training but it's all or nothing. You would have to commit to it. I recently shot my shadow2 that I didn't touch for a couple of years. I experienced the same issue - the gun was very nose heavy and the timing was really different from pretty much everything. As i mentioned before, weight distribution is important as well. Now I am deciding if I need a different CO gun. The rules changes on the other hand make me think that I should stay away from Production/CO for a little longer though.

[GJM]

THeHumbleMarksman put out some testing last year on the effects of adding weight to a Glock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgUiRoa1GhE


Then followed it up with a one comparing TLR7 vs TLR1HL (again on a Glock) on recoil reduction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsyjt3Idss0&t=599s

Not a comprehensive look across metal guns but definitely laid some good starting groundwork (IMO) for effects of adding weight and lights on recoil, transition, drill times, and group sizes.

Can you provide the cliff notes summary of his conclusions?



So it looks like people started experimenting with the flashlights. Some are reporting the low hits in recoil especially on low probability targets. I am not surprised by the low hits. It is a common problem with the nose heavy guns. The heavier displaced weight up front results in the muzzle dipping low when the slide snaps forward. It can be overcome in training but it's all or nothing. You would have to commit to it. I recently shot my shadow2 that I didn't touch for a couple of years. I experienced the same issue - the gun was very nose heavy and the timing was really different from pretty much everything. As i mentioned before, weight distribution is important as well. Now I am deciding if I need a different CO gun. The rules changes on the other hand make me think that I should stay away from Production/CO for a little longer though.

I know you believe that most good competition shooters can shoot a defensive pistol well, especially if they put some modest effort into their carry gun. However, I definitely believe in this notion of being in rhythm with your gun, load and spring set up. My wife doesn’t notice it as much with the Legion, but with a light polymer pistols pistol, I notice a big difference between, for example, 115 and 147/150 loads. While it doesn’t mean it is right for everyone else, I like it that I am competing with a competition gun that closely matches my carry gun.

[GJM]

I may need to pick up a spare job as a greeter at the box store, because this is getting expensive — my wife just showed me her new CO rig. Probably came via expedited freight too!

68694

[NoTacTravis]

Can you provide the cliff notes summary of his conclusions?



-Pretty much that the added weight worked, the more the better to the extent that he took it with Glocks. Mainly just about all the times were nearly identical but the hits were markedly better with each step up in weight.

-Group size shrank, the gun felt like it "flopped back into place" with the flashlight and the the gun felt more stable. Big flashlight (TLR1) was noticeable when drawing and would take some getting used to.

-The only real surprise seemed to be that the Glock actually transitioned better with the weight as the lighter/more stock version tended to suffer from over transitioning.

-Caveats about it being one particular shooter and body type.



These were my Cliff's Notes. I could obviously be losing a lot in the translation or have my own takeaways and missed others.

[THeHumbleMarksman]

I don't have a heavy metal railed gun to test with - but I did test the following lights recently for what I thought was going to be a video - but honestly doing this kind of video takes FOREVER setting up and I lost interest in it and ammo being as precious as it is I felt like I'd be better suited to save it for other content.

Beretta LTT RDO
Glock 34.5
Sig P320 AXG 3.7"

with the Streamlight lineup TLR-1, TLR-7, TLR-9.

All of the guns benefitted immediately from the added weight stabilizing them for sighting in on shots - so transitioning to an aimed sight picture is a bit improved. The recoil impulse - obviously - changes hanging a 4oz light off the gun. I think it imbalances the gun - a lot.

The Glock 34 with TLR1 and TLR9 was easier to aim but I didn't perceive a big advantage to how the gun was tracking for with vs. without - but I didn't test all distances - I was just shooting an array from 12-15 yards with irons. For sure the sights when you pull up on the target to aim settle down faster. No difference between TLR1 vs TLR9 in perception with iron sights. Both were different from no light. The TLR9 is basically custom made for 5.34" guns - but will only fit in the box on guns with no beavertail more than probably. I prefer the G34 with a light to no light - but I didn't test high speed shredding. I shot at a moderate pace - probably .3 splits.

Sig AXG with TLR7 - The 4" gun with a TLR7 is awesome. It benefitted from more stability same as the glock - but it handles better. I really like a 4" gun with a dot. The balance of the gun with a 3 oz light isn't affected as much since it's a bit shorter. Since the bore axis is so high on the P320 I could notice a difference in muzzle climb. I'll probably need to test this with the MantisX and high speed. I think that carry optics guns 2.0 will be 4" guns with full grips. The balance is so much better on this variant. A fat heavy slide like the P320 has is great for slowing down the snappier recoil impulse of a 4" gun. If you asked me right now which glock to buy for CO - my answer is 45 or 17. In a game where sight radius doesn't matter the shorter barrels draw faster and swing a bit nicer - plus on plastic guns they aren't as muzzle heavy.

Beretta with TLR1. This is cheating. Dot climb in the window was noticeably reduced. Sights acquired faster. No more perceived muzzle dip when the slide closes than usual - likely due to the locking block design of the gun. Because it's got a really high bore axis it seems to affect the muzzle climb more - I suspect that guns with high bore axes benefit the most from having a WML - so PPQ/PDP, Caniks, etc will likely reap more of a performance gain than super low bore axis guns. The WML on the 92 felt like cheating. I would probably still favor the full size 92 over a centurion for CO despite my comments above because of the TLR1 being flush with the LTT crown. I would love it if Ernest would test the TLR7 on a centurion - I suspect that will still handle like a middle weight gun - and swing a bit better. I cannot overemphasize how much more it feels like cheating with a light on the 92. The 92 as it is has about the best recoil impulse in the category (in my opinion - obviously) and giving it the performance gain of a heavy weight with out making it a truly heavy weight gun is fantastic. Never mind it's got about the best trigger going in the segment.

Hey Ernest - can you do some testing on one of your Centurions with a TLR7?

I need to get a Shadow 2 Optics Ready to test for the heavy weight DASA guns.

I'm probably shooting Open this year and not carry optics - but if I did - of the guns I have right now it'd be the TLR1 on my LTT RDO. The problem is obviously going to be holster selection. Holster makers just got handed a big job of work to do.

[GJM]

HM, thanks for the post, excellent info. I personally am excited about all this, and my full size carry gun may get a light.

[Sal Picante]

I may need to pick up a spare job as a greeter at the box store, because this is getting expensive — my wife just showed me her new CO rig. Probably came via expedited freight too!

68694

"Shoot CO!", they said.

"... it's cheaper than Open!", they said.

:rolleyes:

[cheby]

I definitely believe in this notion of being in rhythm with your gun, load and spring set up.

This is exactly what I was saying. If you commit to the nose heavy gun, it is all or nothing. This set up would be the one you are in rhythm with. It could be tuned up a little with the recoil springs to some extend of course but not much. Also of course it depends on individual grips and the body types but the physics would work the same

[cheby]

And now, let's talk about lasers, gentlemen,

https://nroi.org/rules-qa/flashlights-magnets-and-hip-bones/

[NoTacTravis]

Like the fact that a TLR2 weighs 0.5 ounces more than a TLR1 so would be a heavier off the shelf legal frame weight for only $140 more for the 1/2 oz?

[JCN]

It almost seems like Troy doesn’t care if you make a tortured flash-type light.

I take it to mean it’s open season on flashlights....

[cheby]

So lasers can be attached but not used. If the flashlight is broken you apparently need a Range Master's approval to change "gun equipment". Unlike a red dot, BTW.

it's muddied even further now. Awesome

[YVK]

Methinks it is time to move past the disappointment on one side and jubilation on another and perhaps start thinking what we might learn, or not learn, from sport changing along the new rules.

I found out today that if you moved holster forward so it is across your hip joint, it prevents you from taking an aggressive step forward. Who would've guessed.

I think it would be interesting to see what free weights, I meant flashlights, will do to performance. I suppose most lightweight gun users will derive some benefits. As always, it will be interesting to watch and analyze outliers, which in this case will be poly gun users who choose to keep their guns light, and heavy steel gun users who choose to make their guns heavier.

I don't think we'll learn anything about AIWB in Production since those guys will have a big disadvantage against conventional setups due to mags. CO, maybe some will run ̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶c̶e̶a̶l̶e̶d̶ slightly covered buckets like Tier 1 with mag and compete OK. I don't take those holsters seriously, not with large guns at least, so to me it won't tell much. I don't anticipate anyone to run true concealment holster and compact guns.

I don't anticipate ranks' growth. I anticipate that new rules will be more gamed than used for purported reasons of EDC use in sport.

What else will we learn?

[cheby]

Frame weights converted into lights are legal and lights converted into frame weights are still legal in Limited and L10. Also, lasers are now allowed in open. That is what I learned.

[GJM]

Frame weights converted into lights are legal and lights converted into frame weights are still legal in Limited and L10. Also, lasers are now allowed in open. That is what I learned.

Lasers were already legal in PCC and Open.

[Whirlwind06]

Looking at this holster:
https://www.phlsterholsters.com/shop/floodlight-owb/
Looks like I can use it for both my G34 and 92X. I expect we will see a number of new choices hitting the market in the next few months.

[GJM]

Looking at this holster:
https://www.phlsterholsters.com/shop/floodlight-owb/
Looks like I can use it for both my G34 and 92X. I expect we will see a number of new choices hitting the market in the next few months.

That is what I am using now. Good multi fit option but not as fast as a competition holster made for your pistol and light.

[Norville]

Looking at this holster:
https://www.phlsterholsters.com/shop/floodlight-owb/
Looks like I can use it for both my G34 and 92X. I expect we will see a number of new choices hitting the market in the next few months.


That is what I am using now. Good multi fit option but not as fast as a competition holster made for your pistol and light.


Mine arrived yesterday. After bolting it onto my Boss hanger, I agree that it’s a readily available solution but better alternatives are probably coming. I ordered a JMCK Range holster for my G34 + X300.

[Clusterfrack]

Like YVK, moving mag pouches shaved about 0.1-0.2s off my reloads without any real practice. Note the rubber bumper sticker on Mag 1, which serves as an index point while my cerebellum learns where it needs to put my finger on the mag pick.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210312/ed752e335530228b6b1fe09144f8ba70.jpg

[Glenn E. Meyer]

From Diane's latest AWB bill:


‘‘(D) A semiautomatic pistol that—
24 ‘‘(i) has the capacity to utilize a magazine
25 that is not a fixed magazine; and
4
ALB21406 F2P S.L.C.
1 ‘‘(ii) does have any 1 of the following:
2 ‘‘(I) A threaded barrel.
3 ‘‘(II) A second pistol grip.
4 ‘‘(III) A barrel shroud.
5 ‘‘(IV) The capacity to accept a de6
tachable magazine at some location outside
7 of the pistol grip.
8 ‘‘(V) A semiautomatic version of an
9 automatic firearm.
10 ‘‘(VI) A manufactured weight of 50
11 ounces or more when unloaded.

This have any relevance to the weight discussions? Not a lawyer and not a USPSA division and rules guru. If this is meaningless to the debate, ignore it.

[cheby]

Lasers were already legal in Open.

This was a pretty big surprise for pretty much everyone. BTW, there is a pretty lovely discussion going on about this on Brian enos right now. One of the top guys just posted this:

Do I think that a laser on an Open gun could be an advantage? Absolutely. Think about how many clubs use "See Through" walls with snow fence netting. Now think about how easy it would be to reach around a wall and use a Laser to "Aim" at targets while engaging them one handed while you look THROUGH the wall. MD's and Stage designers heads are going to explode when an Open shooter completely circumvents the intent of a stage design in this manner.

[NoTacTravis]

This was a pretty big surprise for pretty much everyone. BTW, there is a pretty lovely discussion going on about this on Brian enos right now. One of the top guys just posted this:

Do I think that a laser on an Open gun could be an advantage? Absolutely. Think about how many clubs use "See Through" walls with snow fence netting. Now think about how easy it would be to reach around a wall and use a Laser to "Aim" at targets while engaging them one handed while you look THROUGH the wall. MD's and Stage designers heads are going to explode when an Open shooter completely circumvents the intent of a stage design in this manner.


I'm actually really surprised by this. I've been lurking on Enos for a couple of years and remember reading archived posts like this one:
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/174256-lasers-legal-on-open-guns/

that discussed this as a legal option back in 2013

And back in Sept 2020 here on P/F
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?44675-Laser-on-an-Open-Gun


I'd assumed all along that it wasn't considered of a meaningful benefit if you were already running a RDS since the Open division hadn't widely adopted it already. :shrug

[RJ]

D NROI posts some additional information on the rules changes.

https://nroi.org/rules-qa/flashlights-magnets-and-hip-bones/

"Flashlights, Magnets, and Hip Bones

March 11, 2021 by Troy McManus

Recently, the USPSA Board of Directors made some changes to the rules involving the use of Weapon Mounted Lights, or WML’s, magnetic retention of magazines, and the location of holsters and magazine pouches. We’ve been getting a lot of questions about this, so here are some answers..."

[GJM]

This was a pretty big surprise for pretty much everyone. BTW, there is a pretty lovely discussion going on about this on Brian enos right now. One of the top guys just posted this:

Do I think that a laser on an Open gun could be an advantage? Absolutely. Think about how many clubs use "See Through" walls with snow fence netting. Now think about how easy it would be to reach around a wall and use a Laser to "Aim" at targets while engaging them one handed while you look THROUGH the wall. MD's and Stage designers heads are going to explode when an Open shooter completely circumvents the intent of a stage design in this manner.

The reason I know that lasers were legal in open division was a pistol forum member and friend of mine was DQ’d from a match in Arizona in 2020 for using a laser. He contacted Troy and got an official ruling that a laser was legal in open.

[cheby]

The reason I know that lasers were legal in open division was a pistol forum member and friend of mine was DQ’d from a match in Arizona in 2020 for using a laser. He contacted Troy and got an official ruling that a laser was legal in open.

SMH

[cheby]

Here's from USPSA Bylaws:

16.2 Competition Equipment Rules Modifications: Changes to USPSA Division rules affecting personal competition equipment shall be adopted for a specific nonprovisional division no more frequently than every two years except as outlined below: i.) Changes as required to comply with federal laws ii.) Changes or clarifications which, approved by the BOD with consultation of DNROI and the instructor corps, would loosen restrictions or otherwise expand allowed personal competition equipment for a specific Division Notice of all such changes must be published in the board minutes three months prior to effective date."

[Wendell]

...IDPA should take notes, but they won't.

The executive director is principled. She's made up her mind, and her decision is final.

Until Wilson Combat realizes that it can actually make money selling AIWB holsters, and then... all bets are off.

[Kirk]

The executive director is principled. She's made up her mind, and her decision is final.

Until Wilson Combat realizes that it can actually make money selling AIWB holsters, and then... all bets are off.

I honestly can't even believe IDPA still exists in 2021.

[Bucky]

I honestly can't even believe IDPA still exists in 2021.

The 1 point 1 second rule should have killed it off. It’s certainly can no longer legitimately be called an action shooting sport.

This was something that was considered a while before implemented. Joyce talked about it at the indoor nations. The reasoning was, we are responsible for every shot we take. I suggested that by that logic, everything should be limited Vickers. We don’t penalize for a complete miss, as long as the shooter makes it up.

[miller_man]

I honestly can't even believe IDPA still exists in 2021.

IDPA still has a great value and place in today's shooting sports. TONS of folks get into comp. shooting through IDPA. Lot of new shooters (myself included) can show up to first match and fit in and find likeness at IDPA matches - scoring is easy, rules are mostly easy, gear is cheaper/easier - everything is just simpler and easier. USPSA can be a good bit more intimidating, complicated, more gear driven and "what the heck is that space gun?" for newer shooters.

Now once you get into competition shooting - most folks that really want to get good find IDPA quite lacking, limiting and watered down compared with USPSA.

But don't forget most USPSA shooters get there by going through IDPA first.

[JCN]

IDPA still has a great value and place in today's shooting sports. TONS of folks get into comp. shooting through IDPA. Lot of new shooters (myself included) can show up to first match and fit in and find likeness at IDPA matches - scoring is easy, rules are mostly easy, gear is cheaper/easier - everything is just simpler and easier. USPSA can be a good bit more intimidating, complicated, more gear driven and "what the heck is that space gun?" for newer shooters.

Now once you get into competition shooting - most folks that really want to get good find IDPA quite lacking, limiting and watered down compared with USPSA.

But don't forget most USPSA shooters get there by going through IDPA first.

I think that's probably very region dependent regarding match availability, no? Locally very, very few USPSA shooters have even tried IDPA. There are a few that started there and crossed over... but for those under the age of 60, most were the tactical type guys... that might start directly in USPSA now that they can shoot from appendix... :)

[miller_man]

Been following this thread closely and enjoying the discussion. I still find myself a little torn with the new stuff- love that rules on gear placement was removed for aiwb/rulings for RO's and lights but also don't love that those things will instantly and fully be game - but it IS A GAME, dude!

I moved my CO gear last night and with 1 dry session love the new holster and mag positions - everything is just a little easier and faster (although my hands relaxed at sides feels super cramped with hands hanging on top of mag and holster!). Haven't ever really planned or wanted to carry with WML, don't really feel like investing in them and a new holsters for lights - so don't think I'll be adding one but if I wanted easier/faster splits and recoil management I should add one. .

Overall, to me, it just feels a little bit like the product of USPSA has been cheapened a little more.
But oh well, still gonna play, enjoy it and get better by participating and competing in it.

[miller_man]

I think that's probably very region dependent regarding match availability, no? Locally very, very few USPSA shooters have even tried IDPA. There are a few that started there and crossed over... but for those under the age of 60, most were the tactical type guys... that might start directly in USPSA now that they can shoot from appendix... :)

This is probably true - but I do recall even hearing a LOT of top shooters on podcast talk about started with shooting IDPA. Just stating IDPA still has relevance even if some don't see it.

[JCN]

This is probably true - but I do recall even hearing a LOT of top shooters on podcast talk about started with shooting IDPA. Just stating IDPA still has relevance even if some don't see it.

How long ago did those shooters start?

These days when someone asks about USPSA, I say “you know that movie John Wick...” :D

[miller_man]

How long ago did those shooters start?

These days when someone asks about USPSA, I say “you know that movie John Wick...” :D

Touche - most I'd bet were 10+ yrs ago.

He he that's funny.


So, my training buddy and I were talking about new stuff (I was filling him in, he doesn't keep up with details). He's stoked about moving stuff on belt and already curious about trying a flashlight.

One thing he brought up - so can you use a race holster in all divisions now? Those can be adjusted to use most/any guns right?

[cheby]

Overall, to me, it just feels a little bit like the product of USPSA has been cheapened a little more.
But oh well, still gonna play.

Yep. Here is a quote from some people on Brian Enos:

The sport is being watered down to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

[olstyn]

I think that's probably very region dependent regarding match availability, no? Locally very, very few USPSA shooters have even tried IDPA.

I think this is true here in MN as well. As I've mentioned before in other threads, there's only one IDPA club that I know of anywhere near the Twin Cities, but you can shoot USPSA several nights/week at different clubs. Simply based on available options, I'm quite certain that most people in the area who are into action pistol shooting are shooting USPSA, and most of them have come directly there with no stops at IDPA along the way. I know I did.

[bofe954]

I'm in favor of the relaxed gear position rules. It was always written like it was because of concealed carry, so if a lot of people don't carry behind the hip it makes sense not to require it.

It also was a huge PITA trying to enforce it and there wasn't that much incentive to strictly comply since the only penalty was to make people adjust their stuff.

The flashlight is annoying to me because I feel like it will essentially make a light required now.

I guess I can look forward to buying 1911's with rails and lights and holsters to fit them...and magnets...because all the cool kids AIWB'ing their weaponlight equipped 5 inch 1911s also utilize magnets for quick tac reloads or something.

It's hard to feel like recent rule changes are anything but sponsor driven cash grabs. Welcome to the 2022 Surefire production nationals with 6 low light stages...

[NoTacTravis]

It's hard to feel like recent rule changes are anything but sponsor driven cash grabs. Welcome to the 2022 Surefire production nationals with 6 low light stages...

Just to be devil's advocate on this point... bigger name sponsors like that scenario can allow a niche sport to make huge steps forward and leads to more sponsored athletes making meaningful money. Which in turn tends to make the level of the top competitors jump as they compete for those dollars.

A 2022 Surefire nationals could be a strong argument in favor of rules like this as much as against it.

Prolific contingency sponsors by gear manufacturers could end up being an interim step to that the same way a lot of tire manufacturers do in autocross. Big money sponsors have potential for a lot of corrupting of the purity of a sport but also offer huge upsides for talent growth when there's that kind of incentive to break new performance barriers.

I'm curious to see what USPSA develops into in the next 5 years. If it's just "big tent" shooting, or starting to bring out some next level performances from a growing pool of pros and semi-pros.


I'm also a little curious if Archer1440 sees a growing parallel to the gear used at the highest levels in archery competition. I doubt all the extra stuff hanging off the bow in the pic below would do me much good for a few years but everyone at the Olympic level pretty much has to use it.

[bofe954]

Just to be devil's advocate on this point... bigger name sponsors like that scenario can allow a niche sport to make huge steps forward and leads to more sponsored athletes making meaningful money. Which in turn tends to make the level of the top competitors jump as they compete for those dollars.

A 2022 Surefire nationals could be a strong argument in favor of rules like this as much as against it.

Prolific contingency sponsors by gear manufacturers could end up being an interim step to that the same way a lot of tire manufacturers do in autocross. Big money sponsors have potential for a lot of corrupting of the purity of a sport but also offer huge upsides for talent growth when there's that kind of incentive to break new performance barriers.

I'm curious to see what USPSA develops into in the next 5 years. If it's just "big tent" shooting, or starting to bring out some next level performances from a growing pool of pros and semi-pros.


I'm also a little curious if Archer1440 sees a growing parallel to the gear used at the highest levels in archery competition. I doubt all the extra stuff hanging off the bow in the pic below would do me much good for a few years but everyone at the Olympic level pretty much has to use it.

Maybe. USPSA numbers are pretty small though. Even firearm manufacturers seem to limit how much involvement they have. Once the rules get too permissive it seems like it gets dominated by little niche makers and not big money sponsors anyway.

SJC will make a tungsten frame weight with an LED light and a giant integrated thumbrest and everyone will buy that. Surefire will get to decide how much USPSA specific stuff they want to make when it's 0.5% of the revenue vs LE and .mil.

STI shirts worn for contingency used to be the most common shirt I saw at a major. Where are they now?

More likely it is a one time check to USPSA we are stuck with the repercussions of the goofy rules forever.

[JCN]

SJC will make a tungsten frame weight with an LED light and a giant integrated thumbrest and everyone will buy that.

I would buy one!

But seriously if we make the guns so soft that 9mm feels like 22LR.

Why not just shoot 22LR. :D

[NoTacTravis]

I would buy one!

But seriously if we make the guns so soft that 9mm feels like 22LR.

Why not just shoot 22LR. :D

Because we'll hang frame weights on our 22LR's until they feel like airsoft?

[olstyn]

Because we'll hang frame weights on our 22LR's until they feel like airsoft?

I mean, .22LR *already* feels like airsoft if you have anything vaguely resembling grip strength...

[Clusterfrack]

I shot my first match with the new rules. I moved my holster slightly forward, and made major adjustments to my mag carriers. The match went very well, and after visualizing my mag changes in a very granular way on the first two stages, I forgot about it and had no problems.

I’m glad I have always run bullets forward because the hand trajectory parallel to the belt makes changes in mag carrier position less of a difference. With bullets out, I’ve always felt like very precise hand placement was required.

[CleverNickname]

I moved the mag carrier which I had positioned at about 8 o'clock up to the front of my belt, to about 11:30. But my problem is that my muscle memory is still ingrained to go for the mag carrier that I have positioned at my hip bone at about 10 o'clock. So, on most stages at the match I attended today, I ended up drawing that 10 o'clock magazine for a reload instead of the one at 11:30. More dryfire reload practice I guess!

[JCS]

I shot my first match with the new rules. I moved my holster slightly forward, and made major adjustments to my mag carriers. The match went very well, and after visualizing my mag changes in a very granular way on the first two stages, I forgot about it and had no problems.

I’m glad I have always run bullets forward because the hand trajectory parallel to the belt makes changes in mag carrier position less of a difference. With bullets out, I’ve always felt like very precise hand placement was required.

Interesting observations! I moved my pouches forward and have been thinking about how I'm gonna make sure and not grab for where the pouches used to be. I was thinking of adding cues like "pouch 1" and moving my hand towards the pouch during visualizations. Any tips on how you did this?

Also, I'm running bullets forward because that's what I was running and it's gonna be real uncomfortable on a prone stage but oh well. It seems like cheating having the mag below my nipple line but you are right it does take precise placement of the hand.

[JCS]

I like the pouch and holster placement rules. I've heard the big names discussing the light thing and it seems like it's going to change the game where everyone will be running a light of some sort if you want to compete. The advantage of using it as a light don't seem to make the much sense to me because it can be addressed in the wsb to not allow competitors to use them in a shoot house style stage. But the added weight and inevitable gaming of the light will make it an advantage apparently. I am scouring for a discounted light and plan to see just how heavy I can get a streamlight trl-1 to see if I notice anything. I believe I can easily fill the head up with lead shot to add some weight while not changing the functionality. This feature is gonna be gamed so hardcore. I think the one thing that does make it tricky is that the light does have to be functional and strapping a cheap light to a lead weight won't hold up to recoil. In fact I'm not sure how even the big name lights will hold up to the kind of rounds USPSA guys are shooting. It seems like just another purchase you'll need 2 of if you wanna compete seriously.

[NoTacTravis]

JCS a guy on Enos mentioned you can get knock off Surefires for like $35 apiece if you are just using them to game.

[JCS]

JCS a guy on Enos mentioned you can get knock off Surefires for like $35 apiece if you are just using them to game.

I'm conflicted because I really hate supporting knock off companies because it justifies what they are doing but I don't wanna spend $250 on a light when I don't care about the output.

[bofe954]

I like the pouch and holster placement rules. I've heard the big names discussing the light thing and it seems like it's going to change the game where everyone will be running a light of some sort if you want to compete. The advantage of using it as a light don't seem to make the much sense to me because it can be addressed in the wsb to not allow competitors to use them in a shoot house style stage. But the added weight and inevitable gaming of the light will make it an advantage apparently. I am scouring for a discounted light and plan to see just how heavy I can get a streamlight trl-1 to see if I notice anything. I believe I can easily fill the head up with lead shot to add some weight while not changing the functionality. This feature is gonna be gamed so hardcore. I think the one thing that does make it tricky is that the light does have to be functional and strapping a cheap light to a lead weight won't hold up to recoil. In fact I'm not sure how even the big name lights will hold up to the kind of rounds USPSA guys are shooting. It seems like just another purchase you'll need 2 of if you wanna compete seriously.

You could specify in the WSB to not use the light, but why would they? I haven't shot a dark stage in a long time, but I used to shoot at least one every year when single stack nats was at Barry. They could make the house dark enough where it was a pretty good advantage, and trying to nail speed reloads with a flashlight in your hand isn't great. I'm mainly shooting locals lately so I guess it doesn't really matter to me, but I'm not sure I'd bother signing up to shoot a dark house until I had my equipment sorted, which may be a long time because I wasn't planning on buying new guns.

I didn't see that the weight restrictions were changed for production or single stack though...Were they? Not sure it'd be that easy to make weight with a railed SS gun and light.

My plan so far is to put a magnet around 11:00 and make some minor holster and mag holder adjustments.

[cheby]

....

[Archer1440]

Just to be devil's advocate on this point... bigger name sponsors like that scenario can allow a niche sport to make huge steps forward and leads to more sponsored athletes making meaningful money. Which in turn tends to make the level of the top competitors jump as they compete for those dollars.

A 2022 Surefire nationals could be a strong argument in favor of rules like this as much as against it.

Prolific contingency sponsors by gear manufacturers could end up being an interim step to that the same way a lot of tire manufacturers do in autocross. Big money sponsors have potential for a lot of corrupting of the purity of a sport but also offer huge upsides for talent growth when there's that kind of incentive to break new performance barriers.

I'm curious to see what USPSA develops into in the next 5 years. If it's just "big tent" shooting, or starting to bring out some next level performances from a growing pool of pros and semi-pros.


I'm also a little curious if Archer1440 sees a growing parallel to the gear used at the highest levels in archery competition. I doubt all the extra stuff hanging off the bow in the pic below would do me much good for a few years but everyone at the Olympic level pretty much has to use it.

That particular shooter, Alison Williamson, was in her 6th consecutive Olympic Games (London) where that photo was taken (it was also my 6th consecutive Games as a technical official). Yet, some of the gear on her bow in that photo was actually considered obsolete by 2012.

The items you see there- sight, stabilizers, clicker- have been on Olympic bows for over 50 years now. The World Archery federation is extremely conservative when it comes to equipment rules. The allowed equipment items themselves have evolved considerably and scores are higher than ever, mostly due to improvements in training, and benchmark scores are up 60 points from when I was internationally competitive (on a base perfect score of 1440). The last equipment item that demonstrably increased score all on its own (an improved barreled arrow) was introduced 25 years ago. The ones before that (the clicker and stabilizers) were introduced in the 1960’s. We still have no rear peep sight, which would definitely push scores up at least 30-40 points on a 1440 round for mid level shooters and give the top shooters 5 points at least. That’s not going to happen in the foreseeable future.

To your point, some rank beginners in archery (and some in competitive pistol) often put all the bells and whistles they see on top shooters equipment on their gear right from the start, and focus too much on equipment, which can actually be a detriment to development very early on. In Olympic archery every shot is a process, and some of the gear (stabilizers, cushion plungers and clickers in particular) can cause problems for shooters who are developing their shot process.

While I put a clicker, and a sight on a student’s bow as soon as they have developed a proper process, too much gear does complicate early development.

Korean development shooters don’t even touch a real bow for the first few months of their training- they drill tens of thousands of reps on the kinematics of the shot with stretch bands before they ever shoot a single shot. It would be like making a beginner dryfire their pistol for thousands of shots before touching off a primer (which, come to think of it, might not be that bad of an idea...). If American students were subjected to the same training for archery as the Koreans, we would have a 99% fallout rate.

Only after perfecting their shot process (coordinating the sight picture and controlling the clicker) will I let my students start adding farkles to their bows.

Similarly, I like to make sure my firearms students thoroughly understand the principles of a proper trigger press, sight picture, grip, and stance before moving on to anything else.

So to circle back on the subject at hand, I think USPSA/IPSC is at an existential crossroads. Between the primer/ammo shortage and the travel situation the short term is pretty tough- it makes sense that they will do whatever it takes to keep people coming to matches.

After all, it left its founding principles in the dust 30 years ago. (Channeling my inner Cooper...)

[Kirk]

I shot my first match with the new rules. I moved my holster slightly forward, and made major adjustments to my mag carriers. The match went very well, and after visualizing my mag changes in a very granular way on the first two stages, I forgot about it and had no problems.

I’m glad I have always run bullets forward because the hand trajectory parallel to the belt makes changes in mag carrier position less of a difference. With bullets out, I’ve always felt like very precise hand placement was required.

I know you are running a Shadow 2, but any plans to add a WML in the future? It really seems split at this point among guys running heavier, steel frame guns.

[miller_man]

Interesting observations! I moved my pouches forward and have been thinking about how I'm gonna make sure and not grab for where the pouches used to be. I was thinking of adding cues like "pouch 1" and moving my hand towards the pouch during visualizations. Any tips on how you did this?



Dry fire, burkette or full reloads. Add some empty hand, slower visualization runs before dry fire run - making sure to land your hands right where you want them. Don't overthink it. Don't think "it's gonna take lot of reps" or "its gonna be hard" - just let it be simple. 2 sessions and I feel good with new mag
+ holster positions. My $0.02

[YVK]

You could specify in the WSB to not use the light

I think it is debatable that they can. I know that it was mentioned in clarification, but I think it is another unintended consequence followed by another Troy's improvisation. I don't think there is anything in the rules that allows WSB to forbid using a permissible bolt-on device, which ironically is required to be functional, to its full capacity. Doing that would be identical to, say, writing WSB with "PCC shooters cannot use laser on this stage".

[Clusterfrack]

I know you are running a Shadow 2, but any plans to add a WML in the future? It really seems split at this point among guys running heavier, steel frame guns.

I have no plans to add a weighted "light" to my Shadow2s for a few reasons. Primarily, I don't feel the need to add weight to the gun. The current balance works better for me than any other gun I have tried. Recoil is already very mild with 130-135 PF loads, but I can still move the gun quickly and precisely in transitions, draws, and reloads.

As well, I dislike "tuning" guns, and have come to the conclusion that it's largely a waste of time in Production. Fiddling with recoil spring weight and ammo power factor don't change performance for me, even though I can feel the difference. I'd rather continue to invest my time and effort in tuning my skill.

I also dislike the idea of fake, weighted "lights". Frankly I think this is a bad rule change for USPSA. What's next, comps for Production because some Timmies carry a Roland Special?

If I was going to add weight to my Production gun, I would buy a heavier gun like the AO1 (see below).

My only current interest in WMLs for competition is for low-light stages, assuming they are done well.

CZC A01-LD (https://czcustom.com/czc-a01-pistols/czc-a01-pistols/a01-ld-r-9mm.html)
68842

[bofe954]

I think it is debatable that they can. I know that it was mentioned in clarification, but I think it is another unintended consequence followed by another Troy's improvisation. I don't think there is anything in the rules that allows WSB to forbid using a permissible bolt-on device, which ironically is required to be functional, to its full capacity. Doing that would be identical to, say, writing WSB with "PCC shooters cannot use laser on this stage".

Agreed. I can't imagine designing a course that way and would see it as kind of an A-hole move if someone did. The only thing that would irritate me more than basically mandating flashlights would be to not let me use one after I went through the bother of buying a railed gun, light and holster for it and making sure it all made weight and fit in the box.

[Clusterfrack]

Interesting observations! I moved my pouches forward and have been thinking about how I'm gonna make sure and not grab for where the pouches used to be. I was thinking of adding cues like "pouch 1" and moving my hand towards the pouch during visualizations. Any tips on how you did this?

Also, I'm running bullets forward because that's what I was running and it's gonna be real uncomfortable on a prone stage but oh well. It seems like cheating having the mag below my nipple line but you are right it does take precise placement of the hand.

I'm actually very surprised how little practice and thought was required to re-tune my mag retrieval. It took one 45 minute dryfire session. Moving my holster by 3/4" on my belt caused more issues (missed grip). At yesterday's match, I picked my Mag1 and Mag2 as I walked the stages, and when I had free time.

Adding a rubber bump to the first mag pouch, as an index point for my index finger, seemed to help as well. The 2nd mag pouch was harder to learn than the first.

[Eyesquared]

I think it is debatable that they can. I know that it was mentioned in clarification, but I think it is another unintended consequence followed by another Troy's improvisation. I don't think there is anything in the rules that allows WSB to forbid using a permissible bolt-on device, which ironically is required to be functional, to its full capacity. Doing that would be identical to, say, writing WSB with "PCC shooters cannot use laser on this stage".

I do not believe Troy is alone in thinking the WSB can specify that the light not be used. My area director, who voted against adding flashlights, also made similar comments that you can specify that the light not be used in the WSB, on social media, on the day of the rules change.

[YVK]

I think such WSBs will be successfully disputed.

I also think it is a nonissue. I've shot stages inside shoothouses, from outside into houses, from houses at outside targets, and in every which way.
That house at Nats in Frostproof, with targets covering windows, people were plugging them at sporty paces without lights. As long as matches are conducted 8 am - 5 pm, I don't believe WMLs would offer lighting advantages.

[NoTacTravis]

If I was going to add weight to my Production gun, I would buy a heavier gun like the AO1 (see below).



This post sent me down a rabbit hole of CZ reading. Really interesting how the flashlight rule is going to push us all to iron out what is "ideal" and what is "preference" in terms of total gun weight and dust cover length.

These two CZ's and their respective dust covers are such great studies in prospective frame weighting, IMO. I've been going back a year or so in reading lately to see what people were doing with the issue of weight and recoil/performance before the flashlight rule. I thought this thread on Enos was pretty interesting to see where guys landed between the two CZ's without any emotion of a rule change and flashlights clouding the base issues of nose weight, frame weight, recoil and gun handling.
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/285191-cz-shadow-2-orange-vs-ao1-ld/


I've also enjoyed reading this 2011 build thread on Enos with the same perspective in mind:
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/253401-atlas-gun-works-titan/

USPSA M class poster talking about how he spec'd out his Atlas to 52.7 ounces. Since those 2011's are so customizable to weight, it's interesting to see where those guys land on in terms of weight range and balance through heavy grips, magwells, and guiderods. Same case study of nose and frame weight and the effect on recoil and gun handling without considering flashlights themselves, just the pure effects of the frameweighting they represent IMO.

Between the heavier CZ choices, existing weight range of 2011's, 1911's going up from 43 towards 50 (new 45oz limit), and a 59 ounce prod limit, it's starting to look like over 40oz is going to be a weight number where you are giving something up by staying lighter, and it starting to become a matter of personal preference in the 45-55oz range with very few going all the way up to 59oz.

I'm curious if the divisions land on individual "sweet spot" weight ranges or just look to mirror an open gun spec in every way legal way the rules allow per division (alternate theory that ignores possible inherent differences from major power factor and comps).

[cheby]

It's been 4 more clarifications since last Friday:

https://uspsa.org/nroi/rulings

[cheby]

This post sent me down a rabbit hole of CZ reading. Really interesting how the flashlight rule is going to push us all to iron out what is "ideal" and what is "preference" in terms of total gun weight and dust cover length.

These two CZ's and their respective dust covers are such great studies in prospective frame weighting, IMO. I've been going back a year or so in reading lately to see what people were doing with the issue of weight and recoil/performance before the flashlight rule. I thought this thread on Enos was pretty interesting to see where guys landed between the two CZ's without any emotion of a rule change and flashlights clouding the base issues of nose weight, frame weight, recoil and gun handling.
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/285191-cz-shadow-2-orange-vs-ao1-ld/


I've also enjoyed reading this 2011 build thread on Enos with the same perspective in mind:
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/253401-atlas-gun-works-titan/

USPSA M class poster talking about how he spec'd out his Atlas to 52.7 ounces. Since those 2011's are so customizable to weight, it's interesting to see where those guys land on in terms of weight range and balance through heavy grips, magwells, and guiderods. Same case study of nose and frame weight and the effect on recoil and gun handling without considering flashlights themselves, just the pure effects of the frameweighting they represent IMO.

Between the heavier CZ choices, existing weight range of 2011's, 1911's going up from 43 towards 50 (new 45oz limit), and a 59 ounce prod limit, it's starting to look like over 40oz is going to be a weight number where you are giving something up by staying lighter, and it starting to become a matter of personal preference in the 45-55oz range with very few going all the way up to 59oz.

I'm curious if the divisions land on individual "sweet spot" weight ranges or just look to mirror an open gun spec in every way legal way the rules allow per division (alternate theory that ignores possible inherent differences from major power factor and comps).

I am shooting an Atlas Titan now. Before that I shot a CZ TSO in limited for a year. I did fine with it. Before that I shot Shadow 2 and Shadow 1 in Production for a a long while. It is not necessarily about weight only. The weight distribution maybe more important. Recoil control in Limited is one of the most discussed topics (Sight Trackers, Island barrels, 6" vs 5" guns and so on). What you want is the gun returning consistently to YOU. Nose heavy guns go up less but they also go down harder as I mentioned earlier somewhere in this thread. My CZ TSO (Nose heavy) and my Atlas Titan (Grip heavy) are pretty much the same in terms of overall weight but the sight tracking is more consistent with my 2011. A lot can be overcome in training of course. Obviously some guns/configuration are more forgiving but the top guys are successful with a vast variety of options. You want to understand the theory, not learning tricks. There are a quite of few small shooters/females who are very successful shooters. Some of them even shoot Glocks (https://us.glock.com/en/CONNECT/Team-GLOCK/Ashley-Rheuark)
There is no way they can grip a gun harder then some big guys out there but they are doing fine because there is more to it then just gripping your heavy gun hard.

[JCN]

I am shooting an Atlas Titan now. Before that I shot a CZ TSO in limited for a year. I did fine with it. Before that I shot Shadow 2 and Shadow 1 in Production for a a long while. It is not necessarily about weight only. The weight distribution maybe more important. Recoil control in Limited is one of the most discussed topics (Sight Trackers, Island barrels, 6" vs 5" guns and so on). What you want is the gun returning consistently to YOU. Nose heavy guns go up less but they also go down harder as I mentioned earlier somewhere in this thread. My CZ TSO (Nose heavy) and my Atlas Titan (Grip heavy) are pretty much the same in terms of overall weight but the sight tracking is more consistent with my 2011. A lot can be overcome in training of course. Obviously some guns/configuration are more forgiving but the top guys are successful with a vast variety of options. You want to understand the theory, not learning tricks. There are a quite of few small shooters/females who are very successful shooters. Some of them even shoot Glocks (https://us.glock.com/en/CONNECT/Team-GLOCK/Ashley-Rheuark)
There is no way they can grip a gun harder then some big guys out there but they are doing fine because there is more to it then just gripping your heavy gun hard.

To be fair, Ashley is a GM but usually places like a B-class shooter at big events no?
It's interesting that Lena Miculek uses support hand fingers in front of the trigger guard to help with physics (when she shoots pistols).

That being said, there are plenty of people kicking my ass with less modified polymer guns out there, so there's that.... :D

[cheby]

I think such WSBs will be successfully disputed.

I also think it is a nonissue. I've shot stages inside shoothouses, from outside into houses, from houses at outside targets, and in every which way.
That house at Nats in Frostproof, with targets covering windows, people were plugging them at sporty paces without lights. As long as matches are conducted 8 am - 5 pm, I don't believe WMLs would offer lighting advantages.

it is definitely possible to make that house darker if it is needed. A few sheets of plywood in the right places are all it would take.

[YVK]

it is definitely possible to make that house darker if it is needed.


Then I am gonna use a headlamp. One fucking thousand lumen with a 200 yards beam https://www.amazon.com/SLONIK-Lumen-Rechargeable-Headlamp-Battery/dp/B07D27L1NR. Except I am not gonna put it on my head. I now have magnets perfectly centered on my game belts, so that's where the lamp is gonna go. With some luck and fresh pain, I'll get some disco lights effect once the Texas star start rotating. Need to remind myself to miss one plate.

I signed up for my first match of this year next weekend. Between ammo situation and just easing back into it, I am going to shoot Single Stack. GJM is trolling me and telling me to shoot if from AIWB. I almost gave in but fitting 6 mag pouches on a concealed-carry belt would be a bitch so I was able to get out of that trap.
He was also trolling me into shooting USPSA with my Glock 26/509T because I had fun shooting it today. This one was easy to get out of, the gun has no light rail so no go. Although I admit that it would've been awesome to get a setup where the WML is actually larger than the W in it.

[NoTacTravis]

You want to understand the theory, not learning tricks. ...there is more to it then just gripping your heavy gun hard.

Obviously this is a given.

However, my point was that the flashlight rule is likely to lead to brands and builders doing more optimizing of their weight and weight distribution. Hence my mentioning both the dust cover weight of the CZ's as well as the ability to rebalance a 2011 to decide exactly where to put said weight.

We might very well find that the Atlas "perfect zero engineering" of sight return migrates over to other brands that are currently just "nose heavy" or even the principle being used to choose a specific frame weight to match the load being shot to "shade tree mechanic" the same result for a slight edge.


Having said all of that "gripping your heavy gun hard" is a pretty good starting place for a whole bunch of shooters to start making progress from and generally espoused by a lot of M class guys I've read and listened to as a foundation to build on.

[cheby]

Then I am gonna use a headlamp. One fucking thousand lumen with a 200 yards beam https://www.amazon.com/SLONIK-Lumen-Rechargeable-Headlamp-Battery/dp/B07D27L1NR. Except I am not gonna put it on my head. I now have magnets perfectly centered on my game belts, so that's where the lamp is gonna go. With some luck and fresh pain, I'll get some disco lights effect once the Texas star start rotating. Need to remind myself to miss one plate.

I signed up for my first match of this year next weekend. Between ammo situation and just easing back into it, I am going to shoot Single Stack. GJM is trolling me and telling me to shoot if from AIWB. I almost gave in but fitting 6 mag pouches on a concealed-carry belt would be a bitch so I was able to get out of that trap.
He was also trolling me into shooting USPSA with my Glock 26/509T because I had fun shooting it today. This one was easy to get out of, the gun has no light rail so no go. Although I admit that it would've been awesome to get a setup where the WML is actually larger than the W in it.

LOL. I pretty sure now that we are going to have yet another clarification this week - regarding headlamps. It is actually an awesome idea and I don't think there is anything in the rule book prohibiting that. Awesome!

[JPC]

Picked up my new light and decided to do some dry-fire practice with it. So far I think I’m going to really like the weight advantage! Not sure about running this AIWB though - any leads on a holster would be appreciated.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210316/b5f651677d9db13f59d023d4ea49a3fe.jpg

[JCN]

Picked up my new light and decided to do some dry-fire practice with it. So far I think I’m going to really like the weight advantage! Not sure about running this AIWB though - any leads on a holster would be appreciated.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210316/b5f651677d9db13f59d023d4ea49a3fe.jpg

The holsters you are looking for are here:

68912

[Archer1440]

Then I am gonna use a headlamp. One fucking thousand lumen with a 200 yards beam.

Humor aside, even a 300-lumen headlamp *on your head* and an RDS create an interesting phenomenon. Depending on the RDS, height of the headlamp from your eyes, and angles involved, you can get a nice bright ~50-MOA rectangle rather than just a dot from the emitter, because the headlight bounces off the concave lens surface back onto the emitter window and back to the lens.

Virtually impossible to photograph, mind you, because it only works in a very narrow band of alignment between the headlamp, your eye, and the RDS, but easy to see in person.

(I suppose it could also serve as a quick expedient to get your dot back into the “factory zero” setting should you so desire, because you can see exactly where your dot is, mechanically, compared to the emitter window surface.)


(And how long until the old 5-cell Maglight makes a dramatic return to relevance, bolted onto a dust cover??)

[Clusterfrack]

Double Alpha bullets out magnetic mag carrier: fail. I’m back to this setup:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210317/4e3a76886fd67a13a345bd8c582ad3ad.jpg

And my Commander sticks to the big magnet!

[JCN]

Double Alpha bullets out magnetic mag carrier[/IMG]


When you said you bought some, I ordered some too...

They also fail for me too. :D

[Clusterfrack]

When you said you bought some, I ordered some too...

They also fail for me too. :D

Sorry dude. Hope we can sell them to someone who likes bullets out. I don’t.

[JCN]

Sorry dude. Hope we can sell them to someone who likes bullets out. I don’t.

Hehe. I like bullets out, but the feel of the magnetic retention was just... weird.

It didn't feel consistent in the draw as it slid across the magnets. I guess I'm just used to traditional pouches that release more progressively.

These felt more "binary" if that makes sense. Pull...pull....pull... pop. Rather than traditional PULL... pull... out.

They also don't fit CZ TSO magazines, so there's that.... (It said CZ but didn't specify small frame).

[cheby]

I have been running magnets in Limited for almost 3 years now without any problems. Clusterfrack, I'll show you my setup next time.

[cheby]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hV6vLgE4lQM&t=412s

The latest Ben Stoeger podcast regarding the change.

[NoTacTravis]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hV6vLgE4lQM&t=412s

The latest Ben Stoeger podcast regarding the change.

As a regular listener who generally enjoys the show (~halfway through my second listen on all 140 episodes), Stoeger sounds like he's gone from jaded and cynical to straight up burnt out in this episode.


Sidenote: Is he implying he might just shoot IPSC only with his current stance on USPSA? On a timeline to retire from competition in Brian Enos-esque style (win everything and walk from competition while at the top)?

[cheby]

Here is the fact: no serious shooters, no top shooters liked the rule changes. None. The arguments are pretty much universal from anyone who is passionate about it. Take it as a clue. Try to fucking understand why.

At the end Ben said: " Do I sound like an a$$hole?" And Hwansik said "I don't think so"
I LOLed.

[cheby]

As a regular listener who generally enjoys the show (~halfway through my second listen on all 140 episodes), Stoeger sounds like he's gone from jaded and cynical to straight up burnt out in this episode.


Sidenote: Is he implying he might just shoot IPSC only with his current stance on USPSA? On a timeline to retire from competition in Brian Enos-esque style (win everything and walk from competition while at the top)?


He has been in open war with Foley for the last 4 years. Some people even think that whatever happened to the production rules in the last years was a personal matter against Ben.

[Bucky]

He has been in open war with Foley for the last 4 years. Some people even think that whatever happened to the production rules in the last years was a personal matter against Ben.

Wasn't Ben very helpful in getting him elected? Admittedly, I pay less and less attention as time goes on to the politics.

[cheby]

Wasn't Ben very helpful in getting him elected? Admittedly, I pay less and less attention as time goes on to the politics.

Yep, that is very ironic and typical at the same time

[GJM]

Weight matters.

I hate comparisons of this versus that, because they can be pretty unscientific, but follow this. I been shooting my PDP and loving it. From the get go, I can do tasks easier or faster with a stock full size PDP than with my Apex trigger CORE 5 inch pistols that I have been shooting since end of summer. On a lark, I bought a Walther Q4 steel frame on Monday of this week, and have now had five range sessions with it, in stock form excepting I added a DP Pro 6moa since I had a plate for it off an old Q5 polymer pistol. The Q4 is about 40 ounces, or about 16 ounces heavier than the PDP. The results have been consistent every range session, I shoot the Q4 significantly better, even though the trigger is better on the PDP and I prefer the full grip of the PDP. The heavier weight of the Q4 allows you to be less perfect on the trigger without deflecting the shot, splitting is easier, and the dot moves less.

Since USPSA is a game, all things considered, heavier is easier to shoot, and gamers will increase weight.

[JCN]

Weight matters.

I hate comparisons of this versus that, because they can be pretty unscientific, but follow this. I been shooting my PDP and loving it. From the get go, I can do tasks easier or faster with a stock full size PDP than with my Apex trigger CORE 5 inch pistols that I have been shooting since end of summer. On a lark, I bought a Walther Q4 steel frame on Monday of this week, and have now had five range sessions with it, in stock form excepting I added a DP Pro 6moa since I had a plate for it off an old Q5 polymer pistol. The Q4 is about 40 ounces, or about 16 ounces heavier than the PDP. The results have been consistent every range session, I shoot the Q4 significantly better, even though the trigger is better on the PDP and I prefer the full grip of the PDP. The heavier weight of the Q4 allows you to be less perfect on the trigger without deflecting the shot, splitting is easier, and the dot moves less.

Since USPSA is a game, all things considered, heavier is easier to shoot, and gamers will increase weight.

I have been dry firing and live firing with my "flashlight" equipped Shadow 2 since the rule was announced. At this point, I am surpassing all my previous unladen benchmarks, including draw to first shots. There has literally been no downside except the need for more strength training. :D

[cheby]

Weight matters.

I hate comparisons of this versus that, because they can be pretty unscientific, but follow this. I been shooting my PDP and loving it. From the get go, I can do tasks easier or faster with a stock full size PDP than with my Apex trigger CORE 5 inch pistols that I have been shooting since end of summer. On a lark, I bought a Walther Q4 steel frame on Monday of this week, and have now had five range sessions with it, in stock form excepting I added a DP Pro 6moa since I had a plate for it off an old Q5 polymer pistol. The Q4 is about 40 ounces, or about 16 ounces heavier than the PDP. The results have been consistent every range session, I shoot the Q4 significantly better, even though the trigger is better on the PDP and I prefer the full grip of the PDP. The heavier weight of the Q4 allows you to be less perfect on the trigger without deflecting the shot, splitting is easier, and the dot moves less.

Since USPSA is a game, all things considered, heavier is easier to shoot, and gamers will increase weight.

Of course weight matters. Nobody denies it. I think the topic, however, is the problems with eliminating the differences between CO and Open, Limited and Production, and between divisions in general.

[Clusterfrack]

I found the Stoeger podcast thoughtful and compelling. The new rules further divide USPSA and IPSC. I don’t support this.

[YVK]

As a regular listener who generally enjoys the show (~halfway through my second listen on all 140 episodes), Stoeger sounds like he's gone from jaded and cynical to straight up burnt out in this episode.



Ben is a guy who went on a vacation the very week before his last Nationals, that he happened to win, and he didn't even go to the last Nationals. That's way before these changes. He may or may not care what is done in USPSA but he has disliked how things have been done in USPSA for a long time. He had been vocal about what went legitimately wrong in the sport he cared about, now he doesn't give a shit. Personally I don't particularly care about this specific rule change, meaning I can do with or without. I even support them if my buds feel it'll help them be even more competitive, but I 100% agree with Ben on the fucked up ways how rule changes have been implemented.

[LittleLebowski]

I have been dry firing and live firing with my "flashlight" equipped Shadow 2 since the rule was announced. At this point, I am surpassing all my previous unladen benchmarks, including draw to first shots. There has literally been no downside except the need for more strength training. :D

Further reinforcing me not caring about my ranking, since I don't plan to carry with a light nor buy a competition rig; but honestly good on those that do. Shooting is fun.

[Eyesquared]

I think it is ironic that I may put a light on my CO gun when I don't carry a WML. Some people claim this change makes the sport more "practical" but somehow every recent change that has been made to the sport makes the most competitive game gear less similar to my carry gear.

[Artemas2]

I shot a match last Sunday and left my light on my CO Glock 17. I have always preferred the extra weight on the glocks.
Despite the endless ridicule from my squad about it I am happy that I don't need to keep taking it off for a match, even
if the difference in weight with 130pf loads seem negligible.

A shadow 2 on the other hand...
Turns out a full 18 round mag is a close substitute for the tungsten grip inserts. I have to admit this did not feel bad at all, but I have no interest on that much extra weight on my hips.
Just shy of 59 ounces
69039

[Whirlwind06]

Beretta 92X with a no-name light weighs in at 37.9 I was already thinking of running the 92 vs my G34. my first match at the end of the month.

[YVK]

somehow every recent change that has been made to the sport makes the most competitive game gear less similar to my carry gear.

For me that ship has sailed when I went to my FFL to pick up my first Tanfo while packing a Glock 43...

We need to set up a p-f Shadow 2 group, with flashlight and no flashlight factions, and compare how we're all progressing in our development.

[Sal Picante]

Ben is a guy who went on a vacation the very week before his last Nationals, that he happened to win, and he didn't even go to the last Nationals. That's way before these changes. He may or may not care what is done in USPSA but he has disliked how things have been done in USPSA for a long time. He had been vocal about what went legitimately wrong in the sport he cared about, now he doesn't give a shit. Personally I don't particularly care about this specific rule change, meaning I can do with or without. I even support them if my buds feel it'll help them be even more competitive, but I 100% agree with Ben on the fucked up ways how rule changes have been implemented.

USPSA and IPSC have been diverging for a very long time and, this is just my $0.02, but I can't really help but wonder if it is really a cultural thing...
Follow me here for a sec and I promise I won't be my usual laconic self.

I really wonder if a large part of the sport is rooted in the fact that we can generally build and shoot anything we fancy here in the states. People here are free do do whatever they want to a Glock - this really isn't the case outside the US.
Generally, outside the US, someone has to really be shacked up with a manufacturer and have them willing to produce guns suitable for the sport: Beretta and the 92X based on Italian competitor input, Tanfo and their previous long association with Eric and CZ with a whole team and agile method to produce firearms that would play well in the European market.

The US made the first really compelling Carry Optics guns, has been dabbling with competitive (... and useable) PCCs for a while and USPSA has supported those venues as they've become more popular in the mainstream, as opposed to the sporting crowd.
(The cross-pollination of ideas, it seems, may cut both ways. We all credit the creation/testing of red dots and high-cap 2011's that seem to come due to the sport, but I wonder if the "average joe" interest in CO and PCC has driven that back into the sport.)

My point is, the sports serve radically different markets of people: one where "anything goes" and the other where it is really up to the "elite" and manufacturers to dictate what is acceptable/not.
At the end of the day, USPSA and IPSC are only slightly similar and maybe it is for the better that we've allowed them to diverge so much...

Is it time for a US IPSC group that follows the IPSC rules to the "T"?
Is it that horribly difficult to use a stock gun and 15 rd mags to play production in IPSC for a USPSA shooter?
Is it really, honestly, that bad that someone can strap a flashlight to gun?

Maybe... No... IDFK... But, I don't mind the innovation we've seen here in the US. Paul Sharp and I were remarking that 15 years ago there weren't any AIWB guys/gear/doctrine.

[GJM]

One unintended consequence of the rule change for me, is more of my carry and defensive pistols will have a light on them, and I will be a lot more experienced shooting a handgun with a light.

[Eyesquared]

For me that ship has sailed when I went to my FFL to pick up my first Tanfo while packing a Glock 43...

We need to set up a p-f Shadow 2 group, with flashlight and no flashlight factions, and compare how we're all progressing in our development.

Fair enough. If we could turn back the clock and ban all the various production race guns I honestly would not mind. Despite the name, the point of production should never have been to shoot "factory guns" because some factories are that much nicer and more expensive than others. If we had reasonable rules bounding acceptable gun weight and trigger weight that would be ideal IMO.

[JCS]

Sorry dude. Hope we can sell them to someone who likes bullets out. I don’t.

Why didnt you like it? Im running bullets out so if you are getting rid of it hit me up and I can take it off your hands.

[JCN]

USPSA and IPSC have been diverging for a very long time and, this is just my $0.02, but I can't really help but wonder if it is really a cultural thing...
Follow me here for a sec and I promise I won't be my usual laconic self.

I really wonder if a large part of the sport is rooted in the fact that we can generally build and shoot anything we fancy here in the states. People here are free do do whatever they want to a Glock - this really isn't the case outside the US.
Generally, outside the US, someone has to really be shacked up with a manufacturer and have them willing to produce guns suitable for the sport: Beretta and the 92X based on Italian competitor input, Tanfo and their previous long association with Eric and CZ with a whole team and agile method to produce firearms that would play well in the European market.

The US made the first really compelling Carry Optics guns, has been dabbling with competitive (... and useable) PCCs for a while and USPSA has supported those venues as they've become more popular in the mainstream, as opposed to the sporting crowd.
(The cross-pollination of ideas, it seems, may cut both ways. We all credit the creation/testing of red dots and high-cap 2011's that seem to come due to the sport, but I wonder if the "average joe" interest in CO and PCC has driven that back into the sport.)

My point is, the sports serve radically different markets of people: one where "anything goes" and the other where it is really up to the "elite" and manufacturers to dictate what is acceptable/not.
At the end of the day, USPSA and IPSC are only slightly similar and maybe it is for the better that we've allowed them to diverge so much...

Is it time for a US IPSC group that follows the IPSC rules to the "T"?
Is it that horribly difficult to use a stock gun and 15 rd mags to play production in IPSC for a USPSA shooter?
Is it really, honestly, that bad that someone can strap a flashlight to gun?

Maybe... No... IDFK... But, I don't mind the innovation we've seen here in the US. Paul Sharp and I were remarking that 15 years ago there weren't any AIWB guys/gear/doctrine.

I totally agree with you.

IPSC already has trigger weight restrictions and the such. They're different sports and I can understand American USPSA wanting the freedom to do what they want to do for their market and not be hamstrung by the very, very, very small minority of USPSA shooters that actually compete in both USPSA and IPSC.

How many USPSA competitors have ever shot or will ever shoot IPSC? Maybe <0.01%? For most members, USPSA is the sport and any other organization is just a different sport. They don't care if USPSA diverges from IPSC any more than they care if it diverges from IDPA.

[Clusterfrack]

Why didnt you like it? Im running bullets out so if you are getting rid of it hit me up and I can take it off your hands.

Basically it was that my hand trajectory doesn’t work well with bullets out.

Talk by PM?

[GJM]

How many lumens does your light have to put out? Dirty, my X300 must be 5 lumens or less.

69080

[Sal Picante]

How many USPSA competitors have ever shot or will ever shoot IPSC? Maybe <0.01%? For most members, USPSA is the sport and any other organization is just a different sport. They don't care if USPSA diverges from IPSC any more than they care if it diverges from IDPA.

It is really fun... The culture is very different - I recall going up to Ontario and my buddy getting dinged for accidentally wearing camo shorts. They wanted to DQ him, and he had to explain why it was just "normal Wisconsin attire..."

I loved it tho... I will eventually do more ISPC outside the states one day...

[GJM]

It is really fun... The culture is very different - I recall going up to Ontario and my buddy getting dinged for accidentally wearing camo shorts. They wanted to DQ him, and he had to explain why it was just "normal Wisconsin attire..."

I loved it tho... I will eventually do more ISPC outside the states one day...

Was the infraction the camo or wearing shorts? :confused:

[Hambo]

Shooting is fun.

What do you think this is, a game? ;) If only we had stuck to .45 1911s in holsters made from cows, would could skip these discussions because there wouldn't be USPSA or IPSC anymore. The big picture is that if more people are drawn to compete because they can operate their Roland like a motherfucker, that's good for the sport and continued firearms ownership.

[JCN]

PSA: Red Hill Tactical is offering light bearing options on their competition holsters now

[JCS]

PSA: Red Hill Tactical is offering light bearing options on their competition holsters now

Sadly they don't have an option for the streamlight trl1-hl. I looked up different lights and figured it would be the best option of output, weight and reliability for gaming. I can buy 3 on the secondary market for the price of 1 x300.

I hit up Tony over at JMCK and he said he can make a light bearing range holster for it so I placed an order with him. It's under $60 shipped. I'm already running one of his holsters on my gamer rig anyway.

One thing I don't like about the rules is that it potentially makes the cost of entry to the sport go up. It's already expensive enough to someone who wants to join if you don't have the gear. If you show up and now everyone is running magnets and a wml there's an even higher barrier to entry.

[JCN]

Sadly they don't have an option for the streamlight trl1-hl. I looked up different lights and figured it would be the best option of output, weight and reliability for gaming. I can buy 3 on the secondary market for the price of 1 x300.

I hit up Tony over at JMCK and he said he can make a light bearing range holster for it so I placed an order with him. It's under $60 shipped. I'm already running one of his holsters on my gamer rig anyway.

One thing I don't like about the rules is that it potentially makes the cost of entry to the sport go up. It's already expensive enough to someone who wants to join if you don't have the gear. If you show up and now everyone is running magnets and a wml there's an even higher barrier to entry.

My buddy made USPSA Production Master using his IDPA gear and a pretty stock G34 Gen 3.

Gear really doesn't play into it until you get to very high levels.

A WML for a Glock is less than the cost of a local match if you're taking ammo cost into account.

I measured my TLR-1 and TLR-1 HL and they're pretty dimensionally similar. I wonder what the hangup with the RHT is. I think a little heat would fix the issue either way.

[Eyesquared]

When I see a new shooter show up with their newly CO/production legal carry rig I will take note. For my upcoming local match I don't see any new shooters registered.

As for the notional Roland Special shooters they will still get put in Open (most likely minor) and get beat up on, this rules change will not benefit them.

[RJ]

Poll now open:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?47362-AIWB-now-legal-in-all-divisions-(Poll-Only-Thread)

[YVK]

My math sez that max weight, now attainable, for CO is 4.3 lbs loaded. @GJM (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=410) tells me that if I am gonna be competitive playa, I need a ratcheting belt. Regular won't do anymore. Too mucho mass.
Meanwhile my next science project is to see if I can carbon fiber the shit out of my PCC and make it lighter than a CO pistol.

[GJM]

My math sez that max weight, now attainable, for CO is 4.3 lbs loaded. @GJM (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=410) tells me that if I am gonna be competitive playa, I need a ratcheting belt. Regular won't do anymore. Too mucho mass.
Meanwhile my next science project is to see if I can carbon fiber the shit out of my PCC and make it lighter than a CO pistol.

My wife and I love this ratcheting belt!

https://dominatedefense.co/

[GJM]

My wife shot her first match with mags forward and a magnet, and found enough value from the magnet that I put one on my belt tonight.

[JCN]

My wife shot her first match with mags forward and a magnet, and found enough value from the magnet that I put one on my belt tonight.

Next I want a video of you guys getting stuck together. :D

[Bucky]

Gear really doesn't play into it until you get to very high levels.
.

I disagree. When I attend a match that allows for multiple entries, the difference in same shooter, open versus limited is typically much great at B level than at master or above.

[RJ]

I fiddled around with my rig this week. I have always felt a little odd reaching back to my farthest mag pouch location (I was in Production, so four pouches, plus a pouch for my starter mag). So it was nice moving them forward on the belt. And since I'm moving to CO now, I removed the starter pouch, and just left the four DAA pouches.

My holster got moved forward as well, this position feels better than strong side hip. Moving it into Appendix (I carry AIWB) position felt really weird, so I moved it back, kinda in between where it was and full appendix.

69151

I am going to try my regular dry practice and see how this goes before my first match in CO, a 6-stage classifier scheduled for 4/19.

Question: Moving mag pouches forward, do you guys see any benefit in adjusting the cant of the pouch at the same time? I didn't change mine, just basically slid forward. The cant is such that the basepad tilts forward, same as before. Some dry reloads didn't show me much difference, but of course this is static, and not actually running in between shooting positions like I usually would. I'm going to loosen one up and see where the cant falls naturally, but I was curious what you guys were doing with the pouch cant.

[JCN]

I disagree. When I attend a match that allows for multiple entries, the difference in same shooter, open versus limited is typically much great at B level than at master or above.

I guess I should clarify what I meant.

It was more of a "if you're a B shooter, really you should focus on other things besides gear... because you're a B shooter..."

Sure, if you want to finish better at a match you can game more... but does it really matter if you finish at 64% versus 61%?

Changing divisions is a completely different thing due to differences in optics and magazine capacity (which does play a significant amount in scoring, I believe).

[JCS]

My buddy made USPSA Production Master using his IDPA gear and a pretty stock G34 Gen 3.

Gear really doesn't play into it until you get to very high levels.

A WML for a Glock is less than the cost of a local match if you're taking ammo cost into account.

I measured my TLR-1 and TLR-1 HL and they're pretty dimensionally similar. I wonder what the hangup with the RHT is. I think a little heat would fix the issue either way.

I agree that gear is not what's holding most people back. However, there is a perception among new shooters that it does matter. So if I show up to a match as a new shooter and almost everyone that is serious is running a gamer rig, belt, drop offset holster, magnets, wml, +gun it's going to make people think they need all that stuff to be really competitive.

As someone who just started off in the sport I have heard so many times that gear doesn't matter and it's always the top level people that say it. New people struggle to grasp that. I'm just now getting to the point where I understand what they mean by it.

[Clusterfrack]

@rj, yes, I am now canting Mag1 and 2. That makes a big difference. The first pouch does hit my leg on a deep squat, but it’s not a dealbreaker.

Holster position: I moved it 3/4” forward to reduce stress on my wrist during the draw. That’s it. Any further forward, and the holster gets in the way without any additional advantage.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210321/c9fc397aee14bbcef7a83ead176684e6.jpg

[GJM]

@rj, yes, I am now canting Mag1 and 2. That makes a big difference. The first pouch does hit my leg on a deep squat, but it’s not a dealbreaker.

Holster position: I moved it 3/4” forward to reduce stress on my wrist during the draw. That’s it. Any further forward, and the holster gets in the way without any additional advantage.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210321/c9fc397aee14bbcef7a83ead176684e6.jpg

Where is your magnet? I was pretty skeptical, but my wife proved me wrong.

I had to flip my belt closure to the back to get everything where I wanted it, in terms of placement of stuff in front.

[Clusterfrack]

Flat magnet is at 11:00. It holds my timer, so that’s useful.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210321/c8b55608587bccf4519f437c4b9c2f01.jpg

[Sal Picante]

Was the infraction the camo or wearing shorts? :confused:

General prohibition on camo (https://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf)


5.3 Appropriate Dress
5.3.1 The use of camouflage or other similar types of military or police garments other than by competitors who
are law enforcement or military personnel is discouraged. The Match Director will be the final authority in
respect of what garments must not be worn by competitors.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

So my 5.11 pants on my civilian body would be bad but my Bass Pro cargo pants would be OK?

[olstyn]

General prohibition on camo (https://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf)

I guess on the one hand, I sort of understand, but other other, that's IDPA-level rules silliness.

[GJM]

Flat magnet is at 11:00. It holds my timer, so that’s useful.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210321/c8b55608587bccf4519f437c4b9c2f01.jpg

Do you think a magnet that strong could mess up the electronics in the timer?

[Clusterfrack]

Do you think a magnet that strong could mess up the electronics in the timer?

I hope not. Have to remember to keep my watch away.

[MickAK]

Do you think a magnet that strong could mess up the electronics in the timer?

https://www.supermagnete.de/eng/faq/What-is-the-safe-distance-that-I-need-to-keep-to-my-devices

Long story short, no. Certain kinds of watches can end up permanently magnetized but it's reversible.

[jh9]

So my 5.11 pants on my civilian body would be bad but my Bass Pro cargo pants would be OK?

I think it has to do with Europeans not wanting to conflate the sporting or 'game' aspect of the game with anything paramilitary. Especially anything that could be considered paramilitary training. They seem to be kinda touchy about that, but that's all based on my third hand impressions. There are actual IPSC shooters here that can provide better context.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've mentioned before that I had some UK gun magazines I bought in Barnes and Noble many years ago. They were full of competition handguns (some were pretty weird) but their editorials and articles denounced our humanoid targets as blood lusted, blah, blah.

Define guns for sports and no gun rights for you as we know them.

[jh9]

I've mentioned before that I had some UK gun magazines I bought in Barnes and Noble many years ago. They were full of competition handguns (some were pretty weird) but their editorials and articles denounced our humanoid targets as blood lusted, blah, blah.

Define guns for sports and no gun rights for you as we know them.

Yes, the IPSC metric vs classic target.

https://assets.targetbarn.com/media/catalog/product/cache/11/image/500x/ffc5e15d1e707c678591d7eb278a5746/d/3/d3fd0f6f4c979dadbfbc5b87cd0b1fb9.jpg

https://mgmtargets.com/wp-content/uploads/IPSCTURTLE_IPSC-Classic-Turtle-Target-100-box_1_6511_600.jpg

Why do they hate turtles? Huh? Anybody ever ask them that? Now who's bloodthirsty.

[Caballoflaco]

I guess on the one hand, I sort of understand, but other other, that's IDPA-level rules silliness.

Fun fact, camouflage is also prohibited on any clothing or equipment in all archery competitions that adhere to World Archery rules, which is the international governing body for competition archery.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Fun fact, camouflage is also prohibited on any clothing or equipment in all archery competitions that adhere to World Archery rules, which is the international governing body for competition archery.

I guess they don't allow boxing glove and exploding arrows as Oliver uses. Of course, if Oliver gets killed on the street, that's life. You can always become a Spectre.

Sorry for the diversion. Is camo banned from Javelin throws or can you wear Greek armor?

[Bucky]

I guess I should clarify what I meant.

It was more of a "if you're a B shooter, really you should focus on other things besides gear... because you're a B shooter..."

Sure, if you want to finish better at a match you can game more... but does it really matter if you finish at 64% versus 61%?

Changing divisions is a completely different thing due to differences in optics and magazine capacity (which does play a significant amount in scoring, I believe).

64% is better than 61%. That could easily be the difference of 20 places or more.

When I was a B shooter, I was losing to local A guys based on equipment. Granted, this is a more extreme example, since I was shooting a single stack open gun at the time, and they had these new fangled Para Ordnance guns with twice the capacity. I eventually got the funds to buy the next latest upgrade, a Caspian Open gun. TheCaspian was still 2 rounds shy of the Para, 19 vs 21, but for me it was the better platform.

I get what your saying, focusing on ability should be a priority, but if you have the time and means to do both, why not.

[JCN]

64% is better than 61%. That could easily be the difference of 20 places or more.

When I was a B shooter, I was losing to local A guys based on equipment. Granted, this is a more extreme example, since I was shooting a single stack open gun at the time, and they had these new fangled Para Ordnance guns with twice the capacity. I eventually got the funds to buy the next latest upgrade, a Caspian Open gun. TheCaspian was still 2 rounds shy of the Para, 19 vs 21, but for me it was the better platform.

I get what your saying, focusing on ability should be a priority, but if you have the time and means to do both, why not.

I should agree with you because I feel the same way. The bolded part is where I’m at.

I was referring to people who didn’t have the means and complained at the 61% level that they couldn’t get 64% because of equipment when if they spent 10 min a day dry firing they’d be higher than that.

At a recent local match, all the B and A guys in CO and Prod had put on WMLs so I think the rule is getting positive use.

[Eyesquared]

I should agree with you because I feel the same way. The bolded part is where I’m at.

I was referring to people who didn’t have the means and complained at the 61% level that they couldn’t get 64% because of equipment when if they spent 10 min a day dry firing they’d be higher than that.

At a recent local match, all the B and A guys in CO and Prod had put on WMLs so I think the rule is getting positive use.

I think the lights thing may be somewhat regional. Only saw one light at my match.

[Yung]

Tim Herron, Kenny Platt, Eric Steiner give their takes starting at 19:33.

https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/show/makereadypod/id/18343271

[Eyesquared]

Any thoughts on ideal magnet placement? How about standalone VS attached to an existing mag pouch?

My initial thought was to just get a standalone magnet and put it at the front of my belt. At my last match I saw someone do this and actually reach to their empty mag pouch on a reload. One of the open shooters opined that it's better to put the magnet on the front of your first mag pouch as that's where you're used to reaching.

The other complication is that my pouches are bullets out so a magnet attached to the front of a pouch will probably put the mag quite far out from my body and it won't be placed quite where my hand normally goes.

[Clusterfrack]

Any thoughts on ideal magnet placement? How about standalone VS attached to an existing mag

I put my flat magnet at 11:00. For those rare mag pickup stages, I’m going to do detailed visualization of mag placement and retrieval. From the little bit of dry practice I’ve done so far, bullets out works best for the magnet-retained mags (it holds 2), even though I run bullets forward for my regular mags.

I’m satisfied with a separate flat magnet, so I’m not going to try a magnet equipped mag carrier.

Hopefully MDs won’t go nuts with mag pickup stages...

[Eyesquared]

I put my flat magnet at 11:00. For those rare mag pickup stages, I’m going to do detailed visualization of mag placement and retrieval. From the little bit of dry practice I’ve done so far, bullets out works best for the magnet-retained mags (it holds 2), even though I run bullets forward for my regular mags.

I’m satisfied with a separate flat magnet, so I’m not going to try a magnet equipped mag carrier.

Hopefully MDs won’t go nuts with mag pickup stages...

I think that is probably the approach I will take as well. The guy designing our stages is somewhat of a mag pickup maniac or else I wouldn't even bother. I think the last three matches I've shot all had at least one mags-on-barrels stage. It mostly works out so that there's a good place to put a mag where I'd want to reload, but not having a magnet cost me a little bit at the last match.

[RJ]

With regard to the magnet pouch deal (and this question is symptomatic of my lack of experience), why do I want to add a magnet to my belt? I have had one match were I had to start with a mag on the barrel, but I disremember the details.

Can somebody explain in simple, horsey-ducky words, how it can help me to be able to quickly grab a mag and click it to my belt?

[Clusterfrack]

With regard to the magnet pouch deal (and this question is symptomatic of my lack of experience), why do I want to add a magnet to my belt? I have had one match were I had to start with a mag on the barrel, but I disremember the details.

Can somebody explain in simple, horsey-ducky words, how it can help me to be able to quickly grab a mag and click it to my belt?

This is why I'm annoyed by the rule change. Now, to be competitive in Production and CO, you have to add a magnet to your belt. Otherwise, you will be a few seconds slower because you'll have to pick up and stuff the mags in your pouches on mag pickup stages.

Mag pickup stages should be rare, but some MDs like them. Good luck finding a belt-mounted magnet now. They are pretty much sold out nationwide (https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/magnetic-mag-holder).

[Eyesquared]

With regard to the magnet pouch deal (and this question is symptomatic of my lack of experience), why do I want to add a magnet to my belt? I have had one match were I had to start with a mag on the barrel, but I disremember the details.

Can somebody explain in simple, horsey-ducky words, how it can help me to be able to quickly grab a mag and click it to my belt?

Every once in a while there will be stages that have round counts that require more than 1 mag, but you start in one spot with no mags on your belt. So you'll have to stow however many mags you need for reloads in your pouches before leaving the starting position. It is a lot faster to slap a mag on the magnet VS having to fiddle around with stuffing them into the pouches.

If you shoot singlestack you can try clenching your reload between your teeth like a pirate. Someone got bumped to open last year at SS Nats for doing that but with the changes to mag placement rules it's legal again.

[Clusterfrack]

Tim Herron, Kenny Platt, Eric Steiner give their takes starting at 19:33.

https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/show/makereadypod/id/18343271

That podcast was like going back in a time machine to a 2010 Stoeger podcast, complete with homophobic slurs and ageist jokes. I couldn’t take it. Can you give me the TLDR?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210325/74f022b454aebf7ce0e6f78b889f0246.jpg

[JCN]

Good luck finding a belt-mounted magnet now. They are pretty much sold out nationwide (https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/magnetic-mag-holder).

Come on man, $10 at Home Depot and 10 min of work to put a flat magnet on the front. :D It’s not rocket surgery.

Actually, just Amazoning a Blade tech mount for $10 and a screw in the center of a magnet should do it.

[JCN]

5 pack of the same magnets on the belt for $15.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Neodymium-Fishing-Magnets-5-Pack-Small-33-LBS-Pulling-Force-Super-Strong/333839865842?_trkparms=aid%3D1110011%26algo%3DHOME SPLICE.DISCLISTINGS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D2019100209292 0%26meid%3D6427bfa74e124f988a2c2f5a70923778%26pid% 3D101096%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D193576689553%2 6itm%3D333839865842%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D233 2490%26algv%3Ddefault%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2332490.c101096.m3021

69327

Add a tek lok:
69328

[JCN]

Clusterfrack
GJM

I took a Dremel and cut half the lip off the magnetic magazine pouches.

It can now be used as a “slap on” magnet like a flat magnet... but adds an element of reproducible retention angle.

69347

As an added bonus it now fits the TSO magazines it didn’t before.

[CleverNickname]

Every once in a while there will be stages that have round counts that require more than 1 mag, but you start in one spot with no mags on your belt. So you'll have to stow however many mags you need for reloads in your pouches before leaving the starting position. It is a lot faster to slap a mag on the magnet VS having to fiddle around with stuffing them into the pouches.

If you shoot singlestack you can try clenching your reload between your teeth like a pirate. Someone got bumped to open last year at SS Nats for doing that but with the changes to mag placement rules it's legal again.
Heck, if they'd just make it legal to slip the magazine behind your belt and trap it against your belly, instead of requiring some sort of magazine holder, that would be 90% of the way there for the "start-with-all-your-mags-on-the-barrel" stages.

Technically I guess you could do a ghetto version of a magnetic magazine carrier that really relied on trapping the magazine between your belt and belly. Sew a pocket for a flexible refrigerator magnet on the backside of your belt, so when you tuck your magazine behind your belt it's theoretically attracted to the magnet, but is really held by friction. There is no requirement on how strong the magnet has to be, just that it has to exist. Just like there's no requirement that an attached light output a certain amount of lumens, just that it does emit some light.

[Clusterfrack]

Goddammit. I just shot doubles with and without a WML on a Shadow2 today. It makes a noticeable difference, and is an obvious advantage for “predictive” shooting. I also timed a 90deg transition onto a 8” plate. The gun with the WML was no slower, and may be more precise.

Has anyone determined if a S2 with a TLR1 fits in the Box?

I’m very unhappy with this rule change. It was clearly poorly thought out. A major reason I shoot Production is to not have to be in an equipment arms race, and this is a big step in the wrong direction.

[JCN]

Goddammit. I just shot doubles with and without a WML on a Shadow2 today. It makes a noticeable difference, and is an obvious advantage for “predictive” shooting. I also timed a 90deg transition onto a 8” plate. The gun with the WML was no slower, and may be more precise.

Has anyone determined if a S2 with a TLR1 fits in the Box?

I’m very unhappy with this rule change. It was clearly poorly thought out. A major reason I shoot Production is to not have to be in an equipment arms race, and this is a big step in the wrong direction.

Bwahahaha! You came around to what I was noticing... but I went back to what you were noticing.

I tested up to a 9oz “light” and now going back to no light.

The hotter the ammo, the more it seemed to matter. I have so much trigger time without the light that I don’t want to rework my index. It was a whiff slower and more unwieldy for mag changes and table starts when quick flips are needed for me.

[JCS]

Goddammit. I just shot doubles with and without a WML on a Shadow2 today. It makes a noticeable difference, and is an obvious advantage for “predictive” shooting. I also timed a 90deg transition onto a 8” plate. The gun with the WML was no slower, and may be more precise.

Has anyone determined if a S2 with a TLR1 fits in the Box?

I’m very unhappy with this rule change. It was clearly poorly thought out. A major reason I shoot Production is to not have to be in an equipment arms race, and this is a big step in the wrong direction.

I can measure the distance from the pic rail to the end of the light if you would like. I was surprised that the barrel if my 92 still sticks out further than the light. I suppose i need to make sure it is not too thick for the box as well.

[Clusterfrack]

I can measure the distance from the pic rail to the end of the light if you would like. I was surprised that the barrel if my 92 still sticks out further than the light. I suppose i need to make sure it is not too thick for the box as well.

I measured. It should fit easily. The added width isn’t enough to be of concern.

I’m going to wait to see how all this shakes out. I don’t want to invest time and myelin in a barrel weight until I’m sure I want to stay with it.

[Bucky]

So I went back to open for the beginning of the year, since I had a bunch of ammo for it. Nice thing is, my open gun is 22 years old and just as competitive as it was when built. :)

[miller_man]

I have a not super educated guess that until around high A class/M class - the light probably doesn't make much difference in a stage/match + overall performance.

Below that level, I'd bet there is too much other low hanging fruit that will affect a stage run - if your not already pretty tuned up on accuracy, consistency, transitions, shooting in/out positions/movement and sub-con gun handling, etc.

And I'd bet there will be a lot of folks who now add light, thinking they improved a bunch with it and not work hard on those other things above. Meanwhile someone who puts in work to improve everything to get to next class/level will slip right past them with overall skill improvement. Kind of like the folks who jump to the dot and think they magically improved on everything. Beyond easier recoil management and better splits, what does the light help? I think you have to be pretty good to get to where thats where you really need to improve - could be wrong though.



My personal outlook. Im not adding light or any magnets, kinda see it as fluff and distraction. Just want to keep improving current skill with plastic gun to get to A class, then get full competition gun (looking like shadow2) and work towards M class. Of course, I don't care too much about the competition much beyond locals and doing respectable at level 2's. My ultimate goal is to be a respectable M class competitor and just have fun with it at that level.

[YVK]

Today was my first real USPSA-like practice of the year. I was all burning with anxiety, how I am gonna keep up with new gear and shit. I absolutely had to check it out, push the science forward, and contribute to the groupthink.

Or not.

My humble testing device. It already has a tungsten rod and is still underweight, poor baby.

69461


When people ask if they can have my brass, is it bad to say "sure you can"?

69462

References for velocity, I don't own a chrono, it scares me because it looks like something that would emit a 5G and get inside my brain.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/1000rds-45-acp-cci-blazer-230gr-fmj-ammo


The test and an immediate conclusion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHN8reLTcsU




Obviously, you can see that this was a work of an amateur. The camera is set so you can't see who's shooting, maybe it wasn't me but some huge mountain troll shooting. Maybe it wasn't 45 but some superloud mushrooming 22LR. Maybe it was 4A-3C-1M but I am ROing myself and I called the center hit a double so bite me. It is what it is so here you go.

[rdtompki]

Today was my first real USPSA-like practice of the year. I was all burning with anxiety, how I am gonna keep up with new gear and shit. I absolutely had to check it out, push the science forward, and contribute to the groupthink.

Or not.

My humble testing device. It already has a tungsten rod and is still underweight, poor baby.

69461


I understood Kimber was coming out with a new model with that classic well-worn appearance. Is that pre-production? How did you score that thing? I may switch from my intended purchase of a Staccato C if the Kimber comes in stock soon enough. Seriously, that's the way a beloved piece ought to look. I have a well worn stainless Springfield and "stainless" and "patina" never appear together in the same sentence.

[backtrail540]

I understood Kimber was coming out with a new model with that classic well-worn appearance. Is that pre-production? How did you score that thing? I may switch from my intended purchase of a Staccato C if the Kimber comes in stock soon enough. Seriously, that's the way a beloved piece ought to look. I have a well worn stainless Springfield and "stainless" and "patina" never appear together in the same sentence.

I may be wrong but that looks like legit wear from use, to me.

[45dotACP]

Unpossible. Kimbers explode into a cloud of MIM dust after 500 rounds I thought.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Clusterfrack]

Better be careful, my wife just let out a yell and I found her stuck to the gun safe with her new magnet!

Last Saturday I got stuck to a steel bench while reloading mags. That magnet is no joke! It was hard to get off.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That will kill you on da street if you sit on an iron park bench. We have wrought iron lawn furniture. If I wear magnets and the local bear or Michael Myers comes by - I'm stuck!!

LOL at the image.

[JCS]

Gamers gonna game

The brass flashlight is here.

70468

[Artemas2]

ughh, the change that I was most excited for is proving to be the move problematic for me.

I re-built my belt about 5 times now trying to find the best mag placement for me. Moving everything forward did not work, my balance was completely off and just awkward. I ended up able to move 2 pouches forward of my hip point about an inch, but had to put them at a reverse cant and my third pouch is now where my second use to be, which is something I guess. Beyond that I don't care, I have needed my 4th mag in a match once that I can recall.

When I nail the reload it's maybe a tenth faster for the first one, however my hand position when I get to the gun is completely off and I fumble the load more often. Then going from 2 revers cants to a vertical grab was interesting. Hopefully with some time I can correct it, but it's a lot of reps to unlearn first.
I have a local outlaw match tomorrow before USPSA so I will see how that goes.

[RJ]

I have a not super educated guess that until around high A class/M class - the light probably doesn't make much difference in a stage/match + overall performance.

Below that level, I'd bet there is too much other low hanging fruit that will affect a stage run - if your not already pretty tuned up on accuracy, consistency, transitions, shooting in/out positions/movement and sub-con gun handling, etc.

And I'd bet there will be a lot of folks who now add light, thinking they improved a bunch with it and not work hard on those other things above. Meanwhile someone who puts in work to improve everything to get to next class/level will slip right past them with overall skill improvement. Kind of like the folks who jump to the dot and think they magically improved on everything. Beyond easier recoil management and better splits, what does the light help? I think you have to be pretty good to get to where thats where you really need to improve - could be wrong though.

My personal outlook. Im not adding light or any magnets, kinda see it as fluff and distraction. Just want to keep improving current skill with plastic gun to get to A class, then get full competition gun (looking like shadow2) and work towards M class. Of course, I don't care too much about the competition much beyond locals and doing respectable at level 2's. My ultimate goal is to be a respectable M class competitor and just have fun with it at that level.

Eggzactly.

This encapsulates my (currently a 36% D in Prod, moving to CO at some point "soon") thoughts almost verbatim. I need to work on: Knocking down all the steel, putting holes in things that need holes, not putting holes in things that do not need holes, and generally shooting faster with more accuracy (duh).

[JCS]

ughh, the change that I was most excited for is proving to be the move problematic for me.

I re-built my belt about 5 times now trying to find the best mag placement for me. Moving everything forward did not work, my balance was completely off and just awkward. I ended up able to move 2 pouches forward of my hip point about an inch, but had to put them at a reverse cant and my third pouch is now where my second use to be, which is something I guess. Beyond that I don't care, I have needed my 4th mag in a match once that I can recall.

When I nail the reload it's maybe a tenth faster for the first one, however my hand position when I get to the gun is completely off and I fumble the load more often. Then going from 2 revers cants to a vertical grab was interesting. Hopefully with some time I can correct it, but it's a lot of reps to unlearn first.
I have a local outlaw match tomorrow before USPSA so I will see how that goes.

I struggled with this as well and came to the realization that I should either go back to how my pouches were or commit to leaving my pouches in a position and just “grind” out reps. My own personal opinion is that while having pouches up front seemed faster it probably amounts to hundredths of a second and doesn’t matter. I follow a lot of the top shooters on IG and I haven’t seen a single top 16 production shooter that has changed their mag position drastically in prep for nationals.

[foxj66]

I struggled with this as well and came to the realization that I should either go back to how my pouches were or commit to leaving my pouches in a position and just “grind” out reps. My own personal opinion is that while having pouches up front seemed faster it probably amounts to hundredths of a second and doesn’t matter. I follow a lot of the top shooters on IG and I haven’t seen a single top 16 production shooter that has changed their mag position drastically in prep for nationals.

I imagine part of this is most who shoot seriously dont want to have a second position for when we shoot IPSC matches. That's why my mags have been behind the hip even when I shot limited.

Also its so close to nationals I dont see anyone that cares to compete messing with equipment.

[Artemas2]

I struggled with this as well and came to the realization that I should either go back to how my pouches were or commit to leaving my pouches in a position and just “grind” out reps. My own personal opinion is that while having pouches up front seemed faster it probably amounts to hundredths of a second and doesn’t matter. I follow a lot of the top shooters on IG and I haven’t seen a single top 16 production shooter that has changed their mag position drastically in prep for nationals.

I just did a short range session with that setup and already moved the number two pouch back and slightly reposition the first one. I would like the keep the #1 pouch slightly angled to mimic my limited an CO rigs, but I am finding that the factory length mag plus requiring multiple reloads, the benefit just isn't there for production.

[Clusterfrack]

I moved my mag carriers. It only took a day’s worth of dryfire to burn in the new position, and it is a noticeable advantage—especially for the 1st and last mags.

I will not be using a light/weight. I like the balance and weight of the Shadow2 as it is.

[RevolverRob]

Gamers gonna game

The brass flashlight is here.

70468

70869

70868

[Artemas2]

I moved my mag carriers. It only took a day’s worth of dryfire to burn in the new position, and it is a noticeable advantage—especially for the 1st and last mags.

I will not be using a light/weight. I like the balance and weight of the Shadow2 as it is.

do you run bullets out or forward?

Everything about bullets out seems like it is mechanically(human) better. The few times I tried it did not work for me, but I am trying to decide if now is the time to make that change since I am all screwed up anyway.

[JCS]

I imagine part of this is most who shoot seriously dont want to have a second position for when we shoot IPSC matches. That's why my mags have been behind the hip even when I shot limited.

Also its so close to nationals I dont see anyone that cares to compete messing with equipment.

Great points. Do you think we will see more changes going into next season and in CO since nationals is later on?

[Clusterfrack]

do you run bullets out or forward?

Everything about bullets out seems like it is mechanically(human) better. The few times I tried it did not work for me, but I am trying to decide if now is the time to make that change since I am all screwed up anyway.

Bullets forward. I have exactly the opposite opinion about biomechanics. One hand trajectory from the gun, sweeping across all the mags bullets forward vs. having to find each of 5 or 6 pouches precisely.

I’m confident that running bullets forward was what made it easy to move my mag carriers.

[Eyesquared]

70869

70868

No offense to you but this kind of attitude makes me really mad, because when someone says this kind of shit to me in an argument, it proves that they aren't using basic logic to understand and evaluate claims. If you believe the flashlight rule is dumb, it's likely because you think having a frame weight is a competitive advantage. If you think having a frame weight is a competitive advantage, and you want to win, you'd be fucking stupid to outright dismiss the idea of using a frame weight. So there's no logical inconsistency or whatever there even if someone dislikes the rule change and ends up putting a frame weight on their gun. I haven't put a light on my gun simply because I'm stubborn and cheap.

[JCN]

Dude man, it’s a game. Take a deep breath and relax. No need to get mad or frustrated at everything. You’ll live longer and have a happier life if you don’t rage all the time.

It doesn’t help the performance either to be blinded by rage or ego. Just have fun with it.

[Eyesquared]

Dude man, it’s a game. Take a deep breath and relax. No need to get mad or frustrated at everything. You’ll live longer and have a happier life if you don’t rage all the time.

It doesn’t help the performance either to be blinded by rage or ego. Just have fun with it.

You're one to talk after spending like 3 days going back and forth in someone else's training journal about no look reloads to the point where he stopped posting. :p

Anyways my point is that memes like that are just intellectual dishonesty. I overstated it when I said it makes me mad. What actually does make me mad is spending too much time arguing back and forth with someone online only to realize they aren't really considering what I'm trying to say. Hence my post. No emotions towards anyone posting that meme but the meme just reminds me of the worst kinds of posters on social media.

[cheby]

At this point the only question I have is what else USPSA could do for timmies to get them to matches and learn to shoot? Nothing seems to be working.

[JCN]

You're one to talk after spending like 3 days going back and forth in someone else's training journal about no look reloads to the point where he stopped posting. :p

Yes, but I was having fun with it. I’m still having fun with it. If people are so wrapped up in their egos that they ghost after getting online criticism of online journals... then maybe they learned they really don’t want everything that comes along with an online journal.

This is fun for me. I don’t take it seriously because it’s a hobby. Certainly not worthy of any heartburn.

[JCN]

Anyways my point is that memes like that are just intellectual dishonesty. I overstated it when I said it makes me mad. What actually does make me mad is spending too much time arguing back and forth with someone online only to realize they aren't really considering what I'm trying to say. Hence my post. No emotions towards anyone posting that meme but the meme just reminds me of the worst kinds of posters on social media.

I think if you’re expecting emotional and intellectual honesty on the internet, you’re going to have a long disappointing road ahead lol.

Pretty much nobody on the internet who argues cares what other people have to say.

[JCN]

At this point the only question I have is what else USPSA could do for timmies to get them to matches and learn to shoot? Nothing seems to be working.

We had a bunch of timmies show up with flashlights and polymer guns.

They were nice, respectful and decent shooters.

They respected the skill of the gamers and everyone got along.

It’s a win over here.

[Eyesquared]

Yes, but I was having fun with it. I’m still having fun with it. If people are so wrapped up in their egos that they ghost after getting online criticism of online journals... then maybe they learned they really don’t want everything that comes along with an online journal.

This is fun for me. I don’t take it seriously because it’s a hobby. Certainly not worthy of any heartburn.

You do you man. I don't need a 2nd dad telling me when I'm allowed to be mad.

[cheby]

Here's the post from Brian enos that I think is on point:

"If we take a step back from it, and just look at what we're now calling production guns. I think our equipment has become a joke over the last few years. And what concerns me more is that if the trend continues we'll likely see another major equipment change in the next 6-12 months.



Our sport is a meme at this point "

[cheby]

We had a bunch of timmies show up with flashlights and polymer guns.

They were nice, respectful and decent shooters.

They respected the skill of the gamers and everyone got along.

It’s a win over here.

Let's see how many will stick around. More importantly how many will remain timmy after a while... and it's definitely not "a win". LOL

[Eyesquared]

Here's the post from Brian enos that I think is on point:

"If we take a step back from it, and just look at what we're now calling production guns. I think our equipment has become a joke over the last few years. And what concerns me more is that if the trend continues we'll likely see another major equipment change in the next 6-12 months.



Our sport is a meme at this point "

I still think a weight limit somewhere around 45oz or lower and a trigger weight requirement would be nice.

[Whirlwind06]

The match I was at last weekend had 3 or 4 new shooters. I don't think any of them had WMLs though.
I guess the club has an intro to USPSA sessions, and these guys had attended that session. I hope they continue to participate.

[foxj66]

Great points. Do you think we will see more changes going into next season and in CO since nationals is later on?

Guys that intend to shoot any international stuff probably wont. What I see local is guys coming from open or limited are adjusting their belts to match what they are used to now that they are shooting CO.

even if I wasnt going to shoot any IPSC I still wouldnt move my equipment as I dont think its enough of an advantage to waste the time learning something new.

[Eyesquared]

The other club that shares my range does a beginner friendly match that's all locap, simplified divisions (irons, optics, pcc), and all unloaded starts. Not my cup of tea but it's a good idea.

[cheby]

I have talked to many people at the local matches. Many told me that they never cared about USPSA elections before but now they can't wait for the next one.

[olstyn]

No offense to you but this kind of attitude makes me really mad, because when someone says this kind of shit to me in an argument, it proves that they aren't using basic logic to understand and evaluate claims. If you believe the flashlight rule is dumb, it's likely because you think having a frame weight is a competitive advantage. If you think having a frame weight is a competitive advantage, and you want to win, you'd be fucking stupid to outright dismiss the idea of using a frame weight. So there's no logical inconsistency or whatever there even if someone dislikes the rule change and ends up putting a frame weight on their gun. I haven't put a light on my gun simply because I'm stubborn and cheap.

I'm obviously not RevolverRob, but I am pretty sure he was joking and/or trolling with that one, and it appears that he got you.

OTOH, if you can't look at the situation with the flashlight rule and see that it's pretty silly on the face of it and therefore deserving of mockery, then I have to agree with JCN that you're taking it too seriously/wound too tight. Relax, you'll feel better. :)