FBI Revolver Qualification

[ShotOut]

Newly registered lurker here.....

So I've shot a few ICORE matches recently with what are basically duty guns from the past. I'd like to measure my skill sets against a known course of fire from the past, like what the FBI used when they issued Model 10's and 13's to their agents. Only problem is, I've googled the hell out of that subject and all I get is stuff on the "new" FBI pistol qualification, or movie stills of Clarice Starling wasting Buffalo Bill.

Surely there's something out there on the net or here on the pistol forum that somebody could point me to. Any old agents and LEO's here care to share how they qualified back in the day?

Thanks!

[TGS]

If you're looking for a 6 shot duty qualification, I believe the DSS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_Security_Service) 6 shot revolver qual went something like:

25 yards, 6 rounds, 15 sec, standing from the strong side of a barricade
15 yards 6 rounds, 10 sec
7 yards, 6-reload-6, 20 sec
3 yards, 6 rounds, 4 sec
3 yards, 2 rounds (3 times, so 6 rounds total), 2 sec per facing
3 yards, 6 rounds, 4 sec, strong-hand only

Target is the DSQ-1A "Izzy" (https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/04/03/found-true-story-behind-izzy-ds-target/), scored 5 in the "bottle", 4 outside the bottle but on the body, no points off body. "Challenge" target used by the FTU is a 6" circle high-center of mass for 5 points, 4 points in bottle, 3 points outside bottle but on body. 168 points needed to qualify.

All strings must be shot starting from the holster, in concealment. Issued holsters were leather pancake thumb-breaks, and the thumb break must be secured for each string of fire. From pictures I've seen and old agents I've talked to, some "gun guys" carried speed loaders but most agents carried a single 6 round dump pouch, which makes sense since speedloaders are kind of bulky underneath a suit. In addition, whatever speed loaders used must be carried on duty....so you technically you aren't allowed to cheat with Comp 3s if you couldn't actually conceal and didn't carry them in actual use. So, run a dump pouch if you want the authenticity :) I imagine a 2x2x2 pouch would suffice for such purposes, as well.

DSS transitioned to the Glock for a brief period of a few months in 1993 before immediately switching to the SIG P228. The P228, P229, and P229r were carried until the transition to the Glock 19M and Glock 26 started in ~2018. Agents qualified on the SP101 and S&W Model 19 revolvers in the range safety officer/instructor course up until the last few years due to the number still out in the wild, though now it's just a fam fire. The last DSS Special Agent to qualify on a revolver as their personal sidearm was 2006, though I saw 5 SP101s in a DSS Field Office within the last few years.

Have fun!

[HCM]

Bruce Cartwright

[Half Moon]

Newly registered lurker here.....

So I've shot a few ICORE matches recently with what are basically duty guns from the past. I'd like to measure my skill sets against a known course of fire from the past, like what the FBI used when they issued Model 10's and 13's to their agents. Only problem is, I've googled the hell out of that subject and all I get is stuff on the "new" FBI pistol qualification, or movie stills of Clarice Starling wasting Buffalo Bill.

Surely there's something out there on the net or here on the pistol forum that somebody could point me to. Any old agents and LEO's here care to share how they qualified back in the day?

Thanks!

This is a Google doc, assembled by someone named Brian Garrett, that I found awhile back:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HMcsHztX9f_tszkZ8pKJIbXoWYQLa8LnfJF_jB7jqUc/mobilebasic&ved=2ahUKEwjj6rjkoJfvAhUMG80KHRQHBbAQFjAAegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw2NgLFW7GcLUk3tXCugRs_L

It has several agency's standards including the new and old FBI.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Newly registered lurker here.....

So I've shot a few ICORE matches recently with what are basically duty guns from the past. I'd like to measure my skill sets against a known course of fire from the past, like what the FBI used when they issued Model 10's and 13's to their agents. Only problem is, I've googled the hell out of that subject and all I get is stuff on the "new" FBI pistol qualification, or movie stills of Clarice Starling wasting Buffalo Bill.

Surely there's something out there on the net or here on the pistol forum that somebody could point me to. Any old agents and LEO's here care to share how they qualified back in the day?

Thanks!


Bruce Cartwright

ShotOut and HCM:

The qualification course I was required to pass is called the FBI Double Action Course. Here is that course:

"FBI Double Action Course
I. Originator: FBI.
II. Notes: This course of fire is an old FBI revolver oriented course.
III. Equipment:
a. FBI Q target (IDPA target is an acceptable alternative)
b. Timer
c. Concealing garment or tactical kit.
IV. Ammunition: 50 rounds of ammunition is required. 1 speedloader is required.
V. Scoring: Agent Level: 80 percent (40 hits within the Q “bottle”) to pass. Agent/Instructor: 90 percent (45 hits in the 'Q" bottle.) If using the IDPA target, 40 hits must be in the Down Zero and Down 1 zones.
a. Alternative: More difficult version: Using the IDPA target, use the Down Zero Zone as the scoring area. 40 hits must be in the Down Zero zone.
b. Bonus points/bragging rights are awarded if done concealed.
VI. Sequence:
a. 5 Yard Stage: Shooter begins with the weapon fully loaded and holstered. Upon command, the shooter draws and fires 2 rounds in 3 seconds. This is repeated 5 times.
b. 7 Yard Stage:
i. String 1: Shooter begins with the weapon fully loaded and holstered. Upon command, the shooter draws and fires 2 rounds in 3 seconds. This is repeated 5 times.
ii. String 2: Shooter begins with weapon loaded with 6 rounds. Upon command, the shooter draws and fires all 6 rounds, reloads and fires 4 more rounds in 20 seconds.
c. 15 Yard Stage:
i. String 1: Shooter draws and fires 2 rounds in 3 seconds. This is repeated 3 times.
ii. String 2: Shooter draws and fires 4 rounds in 4 seconds.
d. 25 Yard Stage: The shooter draws, assumes the kneeling position and fires 5 rounds in 10 seconds. This is repeated 2 times."

That said, while I shoot the DAC once in a while, I tend to find Ken Hackathorn's Revolver/Wheelgun Glory is an exceptional tool to assess a revolover shooter's performance. Here is that course:

"Wheelgun Glory Drill

I. Originator: Ken Hackathorn
II. Materials needed:
a. Timer with PAR time function
b. IDPA Targets X3
c. Target pasters (White and black)
III. Round Count: 50 rounds of ammunition
IV. Distance: 3 to 20 yards.
V. Scoring: IDPA Scoring; add 1 second for each point down.
a. Passing: 100 seconds
b. Very Good: 85 seconds
VI. Scenario:
a. Stage 1: 7 Yards: Start with revolver fully loaded and holstered. Upon the timer signal, draw and fire 2 rounds to Down Zero Zone and 1 round to the head zone (4 inch circle) using both hands. Record time. Repeat strong hand only. Record time.
i. Round Count: 6 total.
b. Stage 2: 5 Yards: Hackathorn Head Shot Standards.
i. String 1: Upon command, draw and fire 1 round to T1, 1 round to T2, and 1 round to T3. Record Time.
ii. String 2: Upon command, draw and fire 1 round to T3, 1 round to T2, and 1 round to T1. Record Time.
iii. String 3: Upon command, draw and fire 1 round to T2, 1 round to T1 or 3, and 1 round to T3 or 1. Record Time.
iv. Round Count: 9; 15 cumulative.
c. Stage 3: 10 yards: Tri Presidente. String 1: Upon command, draw and fire 3 rounds to T1, 3 rounds to T2, 3 rounds to T3 and 1 round to the head of T1, T2, and T3. Record Time.
i. Round Count: 12; 27 cumulative
d. Stage 4: 15 yards: Bill Drill. Upon command, draw and fire 6 rounds to the Down Zero Zone of T2. Record Time.
i. Round Count: 6; 33 cumulative.
e. Stage 5: 15 yards: Upon command, draw and fire 3 rounds freestyle to the Down Zero zone, transfer the revolver to the support hand and fire 3 rounds to the Down Zero zone (use both hands). Record Time.
i. Round count: 6; 39 cumulative.
f. Stage 6: 20 yards: Upon command, draw and fire 2 rounds to the Down Zero Zone. Repeat 3X. Record time for each pair.
i. Round count: 6, 45 cumulative.
g. Stage 7: 3 to 10 yards. Wizard Drill.
i. String 1: 3 yards: Draw and fire 1 head shot strong hand only. Record time.
ii. String 2: 5 yards: Draw and fire 1 head shot freestyle. Record time.
iii. String 3: 7 yards: Draw and fire 1 head shot freestyle. Record time.
iv. String 4: 10 yards: Draw and fire 2 rounds to the Down Zero zone freestyle. Record time.
1. Round Count: 5; 50 cumulative."

I prepared a score sheet for Ken's Wheelgun Glory drill and had it laminated. I use dry erase markers to keep track of my student's scores. Here is a copy:

"Revolver Glory Score Sheet
By Ken Hackathorn
Raw Time Points Down (Add 1 second per point)
I. Stage 1:
a. String 1: ____________ _____________

b. String 2: ____________ _____________

II. Stage 2:
a. String 1: ____________ _____________

b. String 2: ____________ _____________

c. String 3: ____________ _____________

III. Stage 3: ____________ _____________

IV. Stage 4: ____________ _____________

V. Stage 5: ____________ _____________

VI. Stage 6:
a. String 1: ____________ _____________

b. String 2: ____________ _____________

c. String 3: ____________ _____________

VII. Stage 7:
a. String 1: ____________ _____________

b. String 2: ____________ _____________

c. String 3: ____________ _____________

d. String 4: ____________ _____________
Total Raw Time Total Points Down
_____________ ______________

Final Score _______________"

Lastly, I find the Hard Wired Tactical Revolver Super Test devised by Daryll Bolke and Wayne Dobbs to be another great tool to assess a revolver shooter's competence. Here is a course of fire:

“The Revolver Super Test” D. Bolke/W Dobbs Version

I. Originator: Larry Vickers (1st SFOD graduation drill) per Ken Hackathorn. Modified by Daryll Bolke & Wayne Dobbs
II. Materials needed:
a. Timer with PAR time function
b. NRA B8 Bullseye Target
c. Target pasters (White and black)
III. PAR Time:
a. 15 yard Line Stage: 12 seconds.
b. 10 yard Line Stage: 8 seconds.
c. 5 yard Line Stage: 4 seconds.
IV. Round Count: 18.
V. Distance:
a. Stage 1: 15 yards.
b. Stage 2: 10 yards.
c. Stage 3: 5 yards.
VI. Scoring: Standard NRA numerical count. Point total of 160 to pass out of a possible 180 points.
VII. Sequence:
a. 15 yard Stage: Start with weapon loaded with 6 rounds of ammunition at high ready. Upon the timer signal, fire 6 rounds to the bullseye in 12 seconds. .
b. 10 yard Stage: Start with weapon loaded with 6 rounds of ammunition at high ready. Upon the timer signal, fire 6 rounds to the bullseye in 8 seconds. .
c. 5 yard Stage: Start with weapon loaded with 6 rounds of ammunition at high ready. Upon the timer signal, fire 6 rounds to the bullseye in 4 seconds.
VIII. Variations: Advanced Super Test. All stages start with the weapon holstered and concealed.

I find that if a shooter drawing from concealment can shoot 85 or less on the Hackathorn Wheelgun Glory Drill or shoot 160 or better on the HITS Revolver Super Test, then they are pretty squared away in terms of their ability. I also suggest that you shoot these courses cold rather than repeatedly shooting them until you "pass". The real test in my mind is if a shooter can do this on demand with no warm ups or preparation. Hopefully that answers your question.

Bruce

[ShotOut]

Holy Cow, I've hit the mother load! Thanks, Gentlemen, for opening up the heavens on this subject. There's much to work on here and I'm not sure I've got enough small pistol primers to shoot them all! I feel a speedloader coming for the Model 18...

It's been fun learning what the old guns can do. Other than shot count and, I suppose, ancient bullet technology, there's not much to complain about. Our dauntless agents and their trusty M&P's put a lot of bad guys on ice. I would dearly love to sit down with all of you and pick your brains about the old days. For me, that's like the 80's.:p

Thanks again, and stay safe.

[revchuck38]

ShotOut - You'll find that there's a small but vocal minority here that retain great respect for round guns and are comfortable leaving their autos at home when going out into the world. They're easier to conceal and good ammo is out there (or was before Covid). Best of luck in your quest!

[Lex Luthier]

All of these are gold. Thanks, Bruce Cartwright and TGS

Please to count me among the Revolvercenti.

[Bruce Cartwright]

Folks:

Glad I could shed some light on this subject for you.

Bruce

[JCN]

A couple years back I ran the recently updated 50 round FBI semi-auto COF with a few different revolvers.

I couldn’t make time on the reload stages with the speed loader, dropping the last shot on those strings over time.

68388

Went better with moon clips and was able to go 50/50 within time with snubby and long revolvers.

68389

68390

[OlongJohnson]

Went better with moon clips and was able to go 50/50 within time with snobby and long revolvers.

I'd hope they'd adjust their attitudes after being worked out properly.

[HCM]

Holy Cow, I've hit the mother load! Thanks, Gentlemen, for opening up the heavens on this subject. There's much to work on here and I'm not sure I've got enough small pistol primers to shoot them all! I feel a speedloader coming for the Model 18...

It's been fun learning what the old guns can do. Other than shot count and, I suppose, ancient bullet technology, there's not much to complain about. Our dauntless agents and their trusty M&P's put a lot of bad guys on ice. I would dearly love to sit down with all of you and pick your brains about the old days. For me, that's like the 80's.:p

Thanks again, and stay safe.

Some thoughts.

I'm fond of revolvers, I started with a GP-100 and, until my agency de-authorized them last year, I had the last J frame BUG in service in Field Office of 700 plus. However, I'm realistic about what they are. When revolvers were putting bad guys on ice serious people carried two or three of them and brought shotguns to pistol fights when ever they could.

I like pretty grips as much as the next guy but policing is regional IME most working revolvers I saw in use back in the day wore rubber grips, or in some cases service grips (possibly with a grip adaptor) with wads of rubber bands around the grip, because, the only thing cheaper than a cop, is two cops.

[jlw]

Here is the old Georgia Double Action Course that was in use until circa 2004:

NEW GDAC 9/98 BASIC MANDATE COURSECOURSE OF FIRE

THREE YARD LINE
POSITION: STANDING IN FRONT OF PRIMARY TARGET
# OF ROUNDS: 12
On command, load holster. On command, draw and fire 2 rounds in 3 seconds at the primary target.
Decock if possible and cover. On command, fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds at the primary target. Decock
if possible and cover. On command, fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds at the primary target. When done
shooting decock if possible, and holster. Repeat the entire sequence.

TWENTY-FIVE YARD LINE
POSITION: STANDING-IN FRONT OF SECONDARY TARGET
# OF ROUNDS: 6
On command, draw and assume a strong side standing, vertical barricade position, fire 6 rounds at
the secondary target. Time limit is 30 seconds.

SEVEN YARD LINE
POSITION: STANDING BETWEEN TARGETS
# OF ROUNDS: 14
On command, draw and fire 2 rounds at the primary target and 2 rounds at the secondary target in 4
seconds. Decock if possible and cover. On command, fire 1 round at the primary target and 1 round
at the secondary target in 3 seconds. Decock if possible, and holster. On command, draw and fire 2
rounds at the primary target and 2 rounds at the secondary target in 4 seconds. Decock if possible
and cover. On command, fire 1 round at the primary target and 1 round at the secondary target,
unload and reload with a magazine containing two rounds, and fire 1 round at the primary target and
1 round at the secondary target. Time limit is 15 seconds. When done shooting, reload, decock if
possible, and holster.

Revolver Note: The fire 1-and-1 reload with 2-rounds and fire 1-and-1 string was a manual load of two rounds (two rounds only, no speed loader).

FIFTEEN YARD LINE
POSITIONS: STANDING AND KNEELING BETWEEN TARGETS
# OF ROUNDS: 18
On command, from a standing position, draw and fire 3 rounds at the primary target and 3 rounds at
the secondary target. Assume a kneeling position and fire 3 rounds at the primary target and 3 rounds
at the secondary target and then repeat 3 rounds at the primary target and 3 rounds at the secondary
target. Time limit is 60 seconds. Holster on command.

50 TOTAL ROUNDS: 28 IN PRIMARY TARGET & 22 IN SECONDARY TARGET
RELOADING IS DONE AT THE DISCRETION OF THE ACADEMY DIRECTOR.

The previous version of this course had 12 rounds at the 25 rather than six. The 15-yard string had six less rounds.

The course that came into effect in 2004-ish was revolver neutral. It was replaced on 1/1/21 with a non revolver neutral course.

This is the official target:
https://www.amazon.com/Georgia-Public-Safety-Training-silhouette/dp/B074S139V7

We don't use the official target at our agency in preference of one with more realistic scoring zones.

[jetfire]

This is a modified version of the Air Force's handgun qual course that was specifically adapted for revolvers

USAF Modified Revolver Qualification – target: IDPA Standard target. Scoring: IDPA scoring (raw time + 1 second per point down)
All strings of fire start holstered and are 2 body 1 head unless specified
Stage 1: 7 yards
1. Failure drill (3 shots)
2. Failure drill (3 shots)
Stage 2: 15 yards
1. Strong side barricade failure drill
2. Strong side barricade 3-reload-3 (failure drills)
3. No cover: 3-reload-3 speed reload (failure drills)
4. Strong side barricade failure drills (2x)
5. Weak side barricade failure drills (3x)
Stage 3: 25 yards
1. 3 shots over barricade, center of mass, transition to kneeling, 3 shots under/around barricade, center mass.
Total rounds fired: 42
Pass: 80 seconds or faster with 42/42 hitting the target area. Any rounds off the target is an automatic fail.
Master: 55 seconds or faster with 42/42 hits

[TGS]

jetfire, when you say "modified":

Is that a COF you drew up loosely based on the USAF COF, or was this what the USAF actually used to qualify guys on the M15 (modified from another weapon's qual)?

I guess my point is, to the point of the thread, what is the COF actually used by the USAF?

[jetfire]

jetfire, when you say "modified":

Is that a COF you drew up loosely based on the USAF COF, or was this what the USAF actually used to qualify guys on the M15 (modified from another weapon's qual)?

I guess my point is, to the point of the thread, what is the COF actually used by the USAF?

I modded the existing AFQC to make it work specifically with revolvers. It is almost exactly the same as the current one, except it's three rounds shorter so it loses one string of strong side barricade. We used to issue K-frames back in the 60s, but I wasn't able to find any records of what the qualification course was back then, so I had to backwards modify a 45 round course designed to run smoothly with three 15 round mags to a 42 round course designed to run smoothly with a six shot gun, while preserving the spirit of the AFQC.

[JCN]

jetfire any parameters regarding concealment or not? Was it designed for open OWB or IWB concealed with regards to time parameters?

[jetfire]

jetfire any parameters regarding concealment or not? Was it designed for open OWB or IWB concealed with regards to time parameters?

Strong side OWB since I took it from a duty qual. Let me tell you, with IDPA scoring and 15 yard head shots on the IDPA target, the time hack is no joke for Master. The "pass" is pretty easy for moderately talented shooters.

[LJP]

Of possible interest, courtesy of Nick Walker’s new website and download section. It has a couple of revolver quals in it.

https://nickwalker.org/sg2/pdf/FBIRevolverCoursesAndTechniques.pdf