Nuances of running the 1911 thumb safety (thread split)

[RevolverRob]

**Topic split out into it's own thread - moderator**

Glenn bring up a good point on presentation of the gun. One of the things I work constantly with the 1911 is thumb safety stays on, until the gun is pointed at the target. I practice this in many ways. Low ready, drawing and firing from the two, left handed, etc.

The other thing I drill HARD is to ride the thumb safety from underneath when it's on (I'll post some pics here in a few).

The reason I do not automatically disengage the safety on the draw is precisely because that's not the muscle memory I want in my brain. I want, "Gun pointed at target, safety off, trigger on."

[RevolverRob]

Okay, so I took my airsoft 1911 that I use for manipulation practice and used a red paint pen and applied a layer of fresh paint on the side and top of the thumb safety (not the underside). After a minute or too where it was tacky dry, I took these pics.

First just the Gun

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Next the standard way most people ride the thumb safety regardless of where the gun is pointed.

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Now what I do - when the gun is not on target

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When I rotate the muzzle onto the target whether coming up from ready going to the two, whatever, then I roll my thumb over the top of the thumb safety and snap it down.

The end result you can see how much pressure I apply underneath the safety (enough that paint from the side of the safety ends up on my thumb)- here I've relaxed my grip to show you:

68211

-

This is something I've thought a lot about. The thumb safety on a 1911 is ergonomically placed that no detectable speed difference is found from using a hard index safety on and rolling on top of the safety to go off. If I've made the decision to draw and fire, I get on the safety early, but don't disengage until the muzzle comes up and get to work.

The hard index for safety ON comes into place when the gun is drawn but muzzle isn't on target or the decision to fire hasn't been made.

The reason I bring this up, is the hard index safety on has your brain registering that the safety is on: to shoot I need to go safety off. Regardless of which position you're shooting from a hard index on the safety adds an additional brain layer to safety on/safety off.

I also holster like this break the muzzle from the target, safety on, hard index against thumb safety back to the holster. Once the gun is in far enough that I have to break the index, I roll the thumb up between hammer and back of slide and finish inserting the gun.

[JHC]

Okay, so I took my airsoft 1911 that I use for manipulation practice and used a red paint pen and applied a layer of fresh paint on the side and top of the thumb safety (not the underside). After a minute or too where it was tacky dry, I took these pics.

First just the Gun

68207

Next the standard way most people ride the thumb safety regardless of where the gun is pointed.

68208

68209

Now what I do - when the gun is not on target

68210

-

When I rotate the muzzle onto the target whether coming up from ready going to the two, whatever, then I roll my thumb over the top of the thumb safety and snap it down.

The end result you can see how much pressure I apply underneath the safety (enough that paint from the side of the safety ends up on my thumb)- here I've relaxed my grip to show you:

68211

-

This is something I've thought a lot about. The thumb safety on a 1911 is ergonomically placed that no detectable speed difference is found from using a hard index safety on and rolling on top of the safety to go off. If I've made the decision to draw and fire, I get on the safety early, but don't disengage until the muzzle comes up and get to work.

The hard index for safety ON comes into place when the gun is drawn but muzzle isn't on target or the decision to fire hasn't been made.

The reason I bring this up, is the hard index safety on has your brain registering that the safety is on: to shoot I need to go safety off. Regardless of which position you're shooting from a hard index on the safety adds an additional brain layer to safety on/safety off.

I also holster like this break the muzzle from the target, safety on, hard index against thumb safety back to the holster. Once the gun is in far enough that I have to break the index, I roll the thumb up between hammer and back of slide and finish inserting the gun.

IMO that hard "under register" when say parked or moving with the drawn Condition 1 1911 is very smart. FWIW this is consistent with how my Soldiers have been trained to move with their M4s.

[RevolverRob]

IMO that hard "under register" when say parked or moving with the drawn Condition 1 1911 is very smart. FWIW this is consistent with how my Soldiers have been trained to move with their M4s.

Indeed I find it very natural to park my thumb under the safety on an AR just like I do the 1911.

The one thing I do not like about standard AR safeties is the 90-degree throw. I find it difficult to on-safe the weapon without breaking my grip considerably. At least with the shooting hand thumb. I tend to just break the grip and activate the safety with the trigger finger and thumb (ambi safety) and tug the lever up. Then regrip and park the thumb underneath.

[JHC]

Indeed I find it very natural to park my thumb under the safety on an AR just like I do the 1911.

The one thing I do not like about standard AR safeties is the 90-degree throw. I find it difficult to on-safe the weapon without breaking my grip considerably. At least with the shooting hand thumb. I tend to just break the grip and activate the safety with the trigger finger and thumb (ambi safety) and tug the lever up. Then regrip and park the thumb underneath.

I've compared notes on this with Kevin B and with 1911 & M4 we three agree on that hard under-register keeping the safety on.

[RevolverRob]

For those of you who don’t go off safety during the draw: is your grip fully formed with safety off, or do you have to adjust grip tension after safety off?

I have an answer for you now. My grip is fully formed when I put my thumb on the safety, whether off or on. I was messing around and realized I don't really adjust tension. Because I firmly squeeze the front and rear backstraps, the thumb doesn't end up applying much lateral pressure. I probably wouldn't mind a bit more, but the 1911 is narrow enough in the grip frame that I can death grip with all three (Non-firing) fingers. In fact, I've never tried it really, but I'd but I could fire the gun with my thumb flagged up and off the gun without any real difference (probably more felt recoil and a bit slower overall).

But this made me think about establishing a grip on the 1911 in the holster. Because I have holsters with sweatguards and without sweatguards (that block the thumb safety or do not). I have actually adapted my primary grip.

This is my grip at the beginning of the drawstroke or end of reholstering. I shift my thumb away from the thumb safety and up onto the back of the slide, partly obscuring the firing pin and hammer. At this point, there is enough of my thumb in there the hammer cannot fall or if it does it can't fall with enough force to set off a primer.

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Some folks do this:

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On the one hand this positively absolutely blocks the hammer. On the other, I find if you're not careful you'll apply 'downward' pressure to the hammer, which on about 90% of 1911s is sufficient to push the grip safety down enough to disengage it. In this realm, you've created a situation where you're reliant on the thumb safety and your thumb to prevent the weapon from firing should something happen. Above, with your thumb registered on the back of the slide, you've likely let enough pressure off your grip that the grip safety is engaged. Giving you three redundant safety mechanisms (four counting a good holster).

One thing I've seen a lot of folks do is get on the thumb safety before the gun is out of the holster. "Master firing grip" is a double edged sword with a light trigger gun that you're using a thumb safety on. Right here it is stupid easy to disengage the thumb safety, your full firing grip has disengaged the grip safety. You're now just Rule 3 away from an ND here, but probably okay with a good holster.

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Once the gun is out and the muzzle is clear of my body that's what I roll the thumb off the back of the slide and onto the thumb safety or into hard register underneath the thumb safety.

[Caballoflaco]

I've compared notes on this with Kevin B and with 1911 & M4 we three agree on that hard under-register keeping the safety on.

Interesting. One thing I’ve noticed with the ambi safety on my 1911 is that with my trigger finger in a high register the big knuckle on my trigger finger rides under the right side thumb safety and keeps me from off safeing without moving my finger towards the trigger.

I’ll play with indexing under, but with my high grip I’ll be curious to see how that feels as far as maintaining a shooting grip.

[RevolverRob]

Interesting. One thing I’ve noticed with the ambi safety on my 1911 is that with my trigger finger in a high register the big knuckle on my trigger finger rides under the right side thumb safety and keeps me from off safeing without moving my finger towards the trigger.

I’ll play with indexing under, but with my high grip I’ll be curious to see how that feels as far as maintaining a shooting grip.

Interesting on the ambi-safety. I don't have any guns with ambis, but I can see it. I assume 'high register' here you're basically putting your index finger on the barrel hood.

Are you high gripping or are you undercut for a high grip?

None of my guns are undercut, so I'll be curious as to your results. As you can see if the pics above, a full-size 1911 grip is sufficiently large that I could hang a whole second pinky on down there (alas, I was born with five fingers, not six...:confused:). So, for me an undercut grip has never had a great use, except to generally drive my thumb up so high I end up dragging the slide a bit and causing malfunctions.

But anyways, I'll be interested to see what you find.

[Caballoflaco]

Interesting on the ambi-safety. I don't have any guns with ambis, but I can see it. I assume 'high register' here you're basically putting your index finger on the barrel hood.

Are you high gripping or are you undercut for a high grip?

None of my guns are undercut, so I'll be curious as to your results. As you can see if the pics above, a full-size 1911 grip is sufficiently large that I could hang a whole second pinky on down there (alas, I was born with five fingers, not six...:confused:). So, for me an undercut grip has never had a great use, except to generally drive my thumb up so high I end up dragging the slide a bit and causing malfunctions.

But anyways, I'll be interested to see what you find.

Yeah, index finger on the barrel hood and the web of my hand jammed as far up into the grip safety as I can. No undercut and it’s a Springfield with a Springfield radius grip safety. I’ve got a nice big callus on my bird finger middle knuckle from dryfiring due to trying to cram my hand as high up on pistol grips as possible.

[Joe in PNG]

The biggest reason I upgraded my safeties on my 1911 and Hipower is that the factory safeties were so-so to disengage, but a pain to engage. The extended safties are a whole lot easier to engage.

[Caballoflaco]

JCN on 1911’s (my only thumb safety pistols) when I establish my grip with the gun in the holster I have my thumb riding the safety so that I can off safe as soon as I need to. That might be when I hit pec index for retention shooting or when I confirm that the muzzle is inline with the target on farther shots.

But I also do a lot of draws in dry fire that don’t involve immediately taking off the safety. Like a “stealth” draw to behind the leg or low ready or even a draw to target with my finger still in high register with safety on. At least half of my dry fire draw practice involves drawing the gun but not shooting so de facto off safety as I’m drawing doesn’t make sense for me. The simple rule I have for myself is finger on the trigger safety off finger in register safety on.

[BehindBlueI's]

Excellent discussion, and worthy of it's own thread. I think I split out all the relevant posts.

It's been some 15 years since I carried a 1911, and never considered this as an option. I was always 'thumb on the shelf'.

[CSW]

Okay, so I took my airsoft 1911 that I use for manipulation practice and used a red paint pen and applied a layer of fresh paint on the side and top of the thumb safety (not the underside). After a minute or too where it was tacky dry, I took these pics.

First just the Gun

68207

Next the standard way most people ride the thumb safety regardless of where the gun is pointed.

68208

68209

Now what I do - when the gun is not on target

68210

-

When I rotate the muzzle onto the target whether coming up from ready going to the two, whatever, then I roll my thumb over the top of the thumb safety and snap it down.

The end result you can see how much pressure I apply underneath the safety (enough that paint from the side of the safety ends up on my thumb)- here I've relaxed my grip to show you:

68211

-

This is something I've thought a lot about. The thumb safety on a 1911 is ergonomically placed that no detectable speed difference is found from using a hard index safety on and rolling on top of the safety to go off. If I've made the decision to draw and fire, I get on the safety early, but don't disengage until the muzzle comes up and get to work.

The hard index for safety ON comes into place when the gun is drawn but muzzle isn't on target or the decision to fire hasn't been made.

The reason I bring this up, is the hard index safety on has your brain registering that the safety is on: to shoot I need to go safety off. Regardless of which position you're shooting from a hard index on the safety adds an additional brain layer to safety on/safety off.

I also holster like this break the muzzle from the target, safety on, hard index against thumb safety back to the holster. Once the gun is in far enough that I have to break the index, I roll the thumb up between hammer and back of slide and finish inserting the gun.
Thumb under is how I was taught in my youth.... Exactly as you described, and still do today with a 1911.
Safety off when the target is identified...

[NPV]

RevolverRob

Thumb under doesn’t jack up your support hand grip? I’ve messed around with it but it’s a no go for me without compromising my grip.

I’m more of a thumb wrapped on support hand knuckle (carryover from shooting Sigs) until it is time to disengage the safety. Reholstering thumb is on the rear sight which disengages the grip safety and would at very least slow the hammer considerable were it to fall. Pics for reference.

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[RevolverRob]

RevolverRob

Thumb under doesn’t jack up your support hand grip? I’ve messed around with it but it’s a no go for me without compromising my grip.

I’m more of a thumb wrapped on support hand knuckle (carryover from shooting Sigs) until it is time to disengage the safety. Reholstering thumb is on the rear sight which disengages the grip safety and would at very least slow the hammer considerable were it to fall. Pics for reference.

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No interference for me. My support hand sits a little lower than you. When I click the safety down and ride it, the tip of my shooting thumb touches the support hand thumb knuckle (wow what a mouthful of description).

ETA: Rear sight works fine if your thumb is long enough. Mine isn't, I can't hit the top of the slide without applying downward pressure on the hammer. It's sort of whatever, I think whatever works as long as you've got something you're comfortable with. Three redundant 'safeties' of thumb safety, grip safety, thumb blocking/obscuring firing pin makes for a safe(r) re holster. But I have no concerns minus grip safety on a BHP or pinned GS on a 1911.

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[NPV]

Gotcha that makes sense. I’m used to getting the thumb meat on my support hand pinched when I disengage the safety. During movement though if I only have one hand on the gun I ride under the safety as well. Actually anytime I only have one hand on the gun I do that.

On the draw I’m similar to you with the thumb on the rear of the slide, difference from reholstering being I want the grip safety engaged at that point.

[theJanitor]

I can't go thumb under. there's just not enough room with my support hand. HOWEVER, if I'm SHO, I go hard under the safety.

Funny story, I has doing some handgun training years ago with a couple of the SF guys here. Their unit still ran 1911 as an optional handgun. I was running my thumb under the safety, SHO, and one of them goes, "WTF, are you some kind of pacifist?!" Anyway, I told him to fuck off and we kept going. LOL. I knew where he was coming from, though. I'm using a pistol, cause my rifle isn't ready to fire (broken or empty), and I'm using a pistol single-handed (either cause I'm injured, or i need to run the light that's still on the rifle, or a handheld), and I'm presumably in a firefight. I can't wait the fraction of a second to move my thumb, or i might not deactivate the safety correctly. Context still means everything, always.

[Elwin]

I can't go thumb under. there's just not enough room with my support hand. HOWEVER, if I'm SHO, I go hard under the safety.

I'm a noob so I'm mostly here to read (this and the original split off safety thread are very helpful), but this is me as well. I use thumb under more in the context of administrative handling - thumb is under while holstering until it moves to hold the hammer, and thumb is also under while I'm moving a loaded gun around from safe to holster and from holster to safe, when grabbing it from the safe to clear it, etc.

Hand size seems to be a huge factor. Unlike apparently most 1911 shooters, I also don't ride the safety when shooting, except when shooting one handed. My support hand is placed much too high for that, so that my two-handed shooting presentation looks like: grip, draw, hands meet, safety comes off at an appropriate point during rotation up towards target, right thumb "bounces" up off the safety after disengaging it to return to its flagged shooting position to make space for the support hand thumb and palm (so the disengaged safety ends up between my support and strong hand thumbs), shooting grip is finalized, shooting happens, and right thumb only comes back down when coming back under the safety to reengage it.

This may also be with the higher-set safeties on, for example, M&Ps and P30s don't bother me, based on limited experience so far.

[theJanitor]

I also don't ride the safety when shooting, except when shooting one handed. My support hand is placed much too high for that...

If you don't have sufficient grip on the pistol, your support hand could drive the safety upward. It might be wise to try see if there are other significant disadvantages to shooting without riding the thumb safety down, even if it's just sandwiching the lever between your hands.

[JHC]

Excellent discussion, and worthy of it's own thread. I think I split out all the relevant posts.

It's been some 15 years since I carried a 1911, and never considered this as an option. I was always 'thumb on the shelf'.

I'm on the under-register thing now but in my 1911 hey day ('80's) I never considered it or heard of it. Just in my recent years return to God's gun; when I found myself handling a Condition 1 during some range stuff and around the house I started to do it, inspired by the AR teaching of the concept which I was exposed to first. One day I was like "btw" and asked Kevin B about that and he was like "of course, just like an M4".

If I'm drawing and presenting to possibly shoot but not going straight to a shot my thumb is on the shelf, but if I switch to moving and have no plans to immediately fire, it's under. I dunno if that is best practice to alternate both or not. But it seems pretty intuitive and I get those reps daily in handling Condition 1 1911s and in dry fire which is pretty much daily.

[JHC]

If you don't have sufficient grip on the pistol, your support hand could drive the safety upward. It might be wise to try see if there are other significant disadvantages to shooting without riding the thumb safety down, even if it's just sandwiching the lever between your hands.

Back in the 80's with GI A1 pattern pistols incl the left side only safety I shot with my thumb locked down but since returning to working with 1911s more recently I adopted the thumb on the safety and found I liked it much more. And this is more modern format pistols re ambi-safeties etc.

It complimented (or so I think) my dual use of Glocks with high thumbs. It did not play well with the USP I briefly owned though, I'd re-safe during strings of fire.

[Elwin]

If you don't have sufficient grip on the pistol, your support hand could drive the safety upward. It might be wise to try see if there are other significant disadvantages to shooting without riding the thumb safety down, even if it's just sandwiching the lever between your hands.

Yep, I've thought of that and even worried a bit about it, but so far it hasn't happened. I'll have to take a close look at my grip to see if I can pinpoint a reason why. It may be that my support hand is also far forward enough that it's really not likely to happen. It could also help that I run thin extended levers.

[JHC]

I'm part of that % of the population whose finger joints bend backwards.

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If were expecting or preparing to shoot my thumb would get on top of the safety . . . waiting.

[YVK]

I can't go thumb under. there's just not enough room with my support hand.

Same here. Support hand interference, compromises my strong hand placement a bit, and is rather slow for me. As I mentioned in original thread, shaping thumb safeties into a smaller profile helps me substantially with premature disengagement.
I do use ambi safety for reholstrering control.

[CSW]

If you don't have sufficient grip on the pistol, your support hand could drive the safety upward. It might be wise to try see if there are other significant disadvantages to shooting without riding the thumb safety down, even if it's just sandwiching the lever between your hands.

Being left handed, my support hand, mainly my right thumb, tends to be very close to the ejection port of a 1911.
So much so, that I have devised a system for myself that my thumb finds the nub of the slide stop that protrudes from the ejection port side, and rests upon it, making very sure that I don't apply pressure to said nub.... Ask me how I know not to... :rolleyes:

[Clusterfrack]

I really shouldn't post in this thread, having no 1911s anymore. However, I have to point out that the tongue-and-groove joint in the Swenson style ambi safety is a common point of failure. I had one break and lock up the gun, and I wasn't even applying pressure to it.

[CSW]

... Also, and it may just be something with me, and my medium sized hands, but I have found a better, more natural placement of my left shooting hand by going to a thin grip on the 1911.
A set of thins and an ambi safety, and my left thumb naturally finds purchase under the safety at the top of the grip.

[JohnK]

I think I am doing some kind of hybrid of what all is described here? In the past when I was competing, and if I was moving from target to target, and even when in training classes, what I am 100% sure of is my thumb safety is up. I am switched on and hear the "snick" on and off of my thumb safety every time I actuate it up or down. When it goes up I am *assuming* that my thumb goes back on top for the presentation to the target to then wipe it off to break the shot. I also take a high register position for the most part and keep my trigger finger in the ejection port.

Like others have said with ambis, I know if that safety comes off because if I am not bringing my finger from the ejection port to the trigger, I have had a tendency to get bit. I think a good amount for me is the size of my paws (which are pretty meaty). I will have to be more observant and report back.

[JTQ]

For historical purposes, I believe this thread grew out of the "Thumb safety pro/con's" thread ( https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?47080-Thumb-safety-pros-cons-(side-conversation-moved-from-320-lawsuit-thread) ), and much of the discussion in that thread involved failure to disengage a safety in a stressful circumstance.

To avoid this problem, riding the thumb safety of a 1911 needs to become part of your grip and not something you do on your way to getting your grip. Getting a "full firing grip" should be done when the gun is in the holster, and that means getting to the thumb safety.

Gunsite's Ed Head demonstrates the drawstroke early in this GunTalkTV video. Notice when he gets to the thumb safety at about the :40 mark in the video.


https://youtu.be/TGGxwJrrABY

It has been mentioned some sweat shields prevent access to the thumb safety (I'll note Todd Green's pistol-training "Basic Holster Development 101" http://pistol-training.com/archives/9692 ) and that should be something to consider if you are choosing a holster for a 1911. If you have a Glock or SIG P226 (DA/SA version) it doesn't really matter how tall your sweat shield is, but if you need to get to a thumb safety, you need to find it while the gun is holstered, and how big or tall the holster sweat shield is should be a consideration.

If you look at the "old school" holster makers like Sparks, Rosen, Del Fatti, Kramer, etc., you'll notice most of their holsters don't have sweat shields, and the models that have sweat shields stop at the back of the slide. If you can't actually put your thumb on the thumb safety on these models, you can put your thumb on the top of the sweat shield and use it to push off as you draw and your thumb will naturally end up on the thumb safety.

[TGS]

Hand size seems to be a huge factor. Unlike apparently most 1911 shooters, I also don't ride the safety when shooting, except when shooting one handed. My support hand is placed much too high for that,

I'm having a hard time picturing this....can you post a picture? Does the meat at the base of your thumb actually "swallow" the safety?

[03RN]

I generally take my safety off as soon as I can. I generally dont put it on again untill the threat/targets are gone or Im maneuvering on uneven terrain.

If Im not shooting but still think I might need to my finger is off the trigger with the safety off. My thumb stays on the safety.

If Im on rough ground and moving I may engage the safety. I have a video of me doing it while doing drills by myself and didn't even know I did it untill I heard it while watching it.

[Elwin]

I'm having a hard time picturing this....can you post a picture? Does the meat at the base of your thumb actually "swallow" the safety?

No problem.

I have pretty large hands. Not Steve Fisher large but bigger than average. If I bring my support hand low enough to leave my right thumb on the safety and still maintain a thumbs forward grip, I have a lot less control. Basically it feels like my support hand is falling off the bottom of the grip.

I’ve checked and even trying to intentionally reengage the safety using my left palm as positioned here is really difficult. It’s basically pressed into the safety with just a fleshy part of my hand contacting it, so if this makes sense it’s almost doing more to keep the safety in place than it would to move it up.

Pictures are 1) my two hand grip, 3) my right hand as positioned for a two hand grip, and 3) same thing for left hand. Gun is a government model.

ETA: I clearly misspoke in my previous post. The safety is not between my thumbs since my left thumb is way far forward. What I get for describing things I’m not looking at.

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[JAD]

I try to mostly use holsters like the SME which have a feature that prevents deactivation of the safety. It’s not a big deal, just seems a little better.

If that’s a sweat shield, like on the EX-RSO, then my thumb rides on top of it when I establish the firing grip. When I draw, my thumb falls naturally to the top of the safety.

When the pistol is out of the holster but the muzzle is not on something I want to shoot, the safety is on. When I direct the muzzle towards something that needs shot, the safety goes off. That includes count three of the draw, and/or retention/pectoral index. When I take the muzzle off the thing to be shotten, the safety goes back on and I return my thumb to the top of the safety. This is a natural resting position for me.

I run my thumb under the safety only while reholstering. I do not ride the hammer. I’m sure it’s a good idea, I just do it my way and I think it’s ok.

As a bonus, when my thumb is on top of the safety my hand shape changes (my grip doesn’t change, but the muscle in my palm is less bunched) and my grip safety is deactivated.

[JHC]

To avoid this problem, riding the thumb safety of a 1911 needs to become part of your grip and not something you do on your way to getting your grip. Getting a "full firing grip" should be done when the gun is in the holster, and that means getting to the thumb safety.

.

I'll keep my thumb flagged when I take the firing grip in the holster. I've found there is ample time on the way out to index for the thumb to lower onto it. I've found that to be one of the best mechanisms to not offing the safety at speed or underpressure too early.

But hitting the thumb safety has never presented much of an issue.

Different topic, I also do not "prep" the 1911 trigger as early in the presentation as Ed Heard described. There is a zero effort short take up . . . I don't want that in the mix personally.

[TiroFijo]

I generally take my safety off as soon as I can. I generally dont put it on again untill the threat/targets are gone or Im maneuvering on uneven terrain.

If Im not shooting but still think I might need to my finger is off the trigger with the safety off. My thumb stays on the safety.

If Im on rough ground and moving I may engage the safety. I have a video of me doing it while doing drills by myself and didn't even know I did it untill I heard it while watching it.

That's how I do it too. I never trained to endlessly click on-off the safety for normal short transitions on even ground of simply when a target is briefly not avaiable, just finger off the trigger and thumb riding the safety.

[Robinson]

I'll keep my thumb flagged when I take the firing grip in the holster. I've found there is ample time on the way out to index for the thumb to lower onto it. I've found that to be one of the best mechanisms to not offing the safety at speed or underpressure too early.

But hitting the thumb safety has never presented much of an issue.

Same here.

[TGS]

No problem.

Gotcha, thanks. The safety on my Colt isn't radiused very softly, so that looks outright painful to me! But hey, if it works it works, I guess.....and as you mentioned regarding securing the safety, seems to be resulting in the same end-state anyways.

[Dave Williams]

I carry a 1911 full time, always ride the safety.

[Elwin]

Gotcha, thanks. The safety on my Colt isn't radiused very softly, so that looks outright painful to me! But hey, if it works it works, I guess.....and as you mentioned regarding securing the safety, seems to be resulting in the same end-state anyways.

Yeah it works so far with two Kimbers and an Ed Brown that all have levers that are very long but thin, not extending much past the grips width-wise. I'm sure I'd have more of an issue with a wide safety lever, both with comfort and potentially with upward pressure on the safety from my support hand. Not an issue for me - one of the best things about 1911s is the ability to fit a gun to you by selecting the right parts.

[RevolverRob]

To avoid this problem, riding the thumb safety of a 1911 needs to become part of your grip and not something you do on your way to getting your grip. Getting a "full firing grip" should be done when the gun is in the holster, and that means getting to the thumb safety.

Please be aware, I am not attempting to be combative when I write the following.

1) It is not necessary to ride the thumb safety while the gun is still in the holster to reliably deactivate it.

Riding the thumb safety is not going to guarantee you deactivate the safety and not riding it is not going to guarantee you fail to deactivate the safety.

2) It is not necessary to get on the thumb safety to achieve a 'full firing grip' on the 1911.

My grip does not change whether above or below the thumb safety. Tension does not change.

3) And here is a kicker that could spawn a whole thread unto itself. Full firing grip on the gun established while the gun is still in the holster is...wrong. (I'm trying to put this politely without mincing words).

It's a great idea that works real well on the square range with an OWB holster. Most IWB holsters tuck the gun too close to allow full firing grip to be achieved while the gun is standing in the holster. From grandmasters, cops, SOF Operators, etc, I've watched a TON of film and seen a ton of draw strokes and worked thousands of reps my ownself, and almost everyone ends up twisting the gun just a little bit to settle it during the drawstroke. Whether it's through lateral pressure on the sides of the gun or releasing and resetting tension on the front/back strap as the gun moves up during the drawstroke. The grip you use to shoot is rarely the one you get on the gun when grabbing it.

Don't take my word for it, pay attention and evaluate it yourself. Yea, we want to get our web into the hump and get a good firm grip on the gun. But 9 out of 10, you're going to find the gun has subtle changes made during the draw to the actual breaking of the shot. They're so subtle, so fast, and so subconscious, that unless you're looking for it, you're unlikely to see it.

From a purely semantic point - when we draw to a classic two handed hold, there is zero chance that the grip you got on the gun from holster to the grip you shoot with is the 'full firing grip'. Support hand applies new pressure and tension to the gun that is absent when you grip it in the holster.

RevolverRob Soapbox Rant: I think too often we are parroting things we were taught, without context, early on when learning to shoot. Without critical thought on these concepts, we get stuck on them. If we really stop and think about it, if 'full firing grip' were the most important thing to pistol shooting. None of us would carry in anything besides a low-slung open top holster. Letting these poorly defined and frankly incorrect ideas drive the way in which we're training and shooting doesn't advance us.



Gunsite's Ed Head demonstrates the drawstroke early in this GunTalkTV video. Notice when he gets to the thumb safety at about the :40 mark in the video.


Yes, this is the common old school way of doing this. And with all due respect to Ed and the Gunsite way of doing things, it's antiquated thinking. Both from the full firing grip (see point above) and getting on the thumb safety while the gun is in the holster.

The 1911 is a weapon with a light, short, trigger pull and two redundant safeties - we all know this.

And both safeties can easily be deactivated while the gun is in the holster following the method that Ed Head demonstrates. In my opinion there is no a priori reason for that to occur. Between the time the gun muzzle breaks the front of the holster and moves upward in the drawstroke to The Two, there is more than enough time to get on the thumb safety and activate it. We know that to be true, from the perspective of 1911, BHP, and AR15 shooters.

By getting on the thumb safety early, particularly when the gun hasn't cleared the holster, you increase the likelihood of deactivating the safety early while the gun is pointed someplace you don't want it to be. We can avoid this by not jumping onto the pedal before we need to.

Now - I want to be clear, I'm not saying what I do is the way of doing it, it ain't. It is a way of doing it. And clearly, some folks here can't do it 'my' way because of hand size/grip/preference/etc.

But - You're not going to see me advocate for jumping on the thumb safety early. I would advocate you index the thumb on the back of the slide and once the gun muzzle has broken the holster is moving to where you want it to go, roll over onto that thumb safety and if you're getting to shooting, mash that sucker down and get to it.

That said, to each their own, whatever you choose, you have to drill it. Which is really the thing with the 1911 carried in Condition 1 as a defensive weapon. You can't not train that safety activation/deactivation. Whether you do it from the holster or not - repeat, repeat, repeat - and that's true for any firearm we're carrying, but because the manual safety is so thoroughly integrated into the safe(st) manual of arms for the 1911, it really must be worked on.

Edit: To clarify - Once the muzzle is clear of the holster (and your body) - ride the thumb safety to your heart's content. Riding it starting in the holster is the thing I, personally, frown on. And I'm no 1911 guru or grandmaster shooter or whatever. So value my thoughts to what you're paying for them.

[YVK]

Most IWB holsters tuck the gun too close to allow full firing grip to be achieved while the gun is standing in the holster. From grandmasters, cops, SOF Operators, etc, I've watched a TON of film and seen a ton of draw strokes and worked thousands of reps my ownself, and almost everyone ends up twisting the gun just a little bit to settle it during the drawstroke.

I can't speak for IWB or any other groups of shooters, but for myself only, out of AIWB: I absolutely get a full firing grip when gun is in my concealment holster. The times when I recognize when I don't, I stop and dry fire till I do again. Usually happens when I push speed and do not wrap fingers around the front strap fully. This is the only video I have of me drawing from concealed at Gabe's class almost 5 years ago. You don't really have time to tweak the grip at a light pin run speed, and you can't hit at a light pin speed with a compromised grip. The gun is P30 LEM but I get a full grip on every concealed gun I have, including a 1911



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-OriPTpPog&feature=youtu.be

[Clusterfrack]

I can't speak for IWB or any other groups of shooters, but for myself only, out of AIWB: I absolutely get a full firing grip when gun is in my concealment holster. The times when I recognize when I don't, I stop and dry fire till I do again. Usually happens when I push speed and do not wrap fingers around the front strap fully. This is the only video I have of me drawing from concealed at Gabe's class almost 5 years ago. You don't really have time to tweak the grip at a light pin run speed, and you can't hit at a light pin speed with a compromised grip. The gun is P30 LEM but I get a full grip on every concealed gun I have, including a 1911


I do not have a fully formed grip from AIWB or with my Production holster. As long as the web is in the curve of the beavertail, I can count on my grip being properly indexed. And even if I fox my grip a little, I can crush out the deviation with the support hand and still have a good index.

[RevolverRob]

I can't speak for IWB or any other groups of shooters, but for myself only, out of AIWB: I absolutely get a full firing grip when gun is in my concealment holster. The times when I recognize when I don't, I stop and dry fire till I do again. Usually happens when I push speed and do not wrap fingers around the front strap fully. This is the only video I have of me drawing from concealed at Gabe's class almost 5 years ago. You don't really have time to tweak the grip at a light pin run speed, and you can't hit at a light pin speed with a compromised grip. The gun is P30 LEM but I get a full grip on every concealed gun I have, including a 1911



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-OriPTpPog&feature=youtu.be

Tough to say from there. But it looks like your shooting hand thumb actually shifts as your hands come together in the press out, I slowed it down and watched your thumbs as much as possible. Of course if you're like me that may not mean much, because virtually all of my grip is based on getting good front/back strap tension with the palm and fingers and some balancing tension with the thumb knuckle. And then crushing the gun with my support hand.

So don't get me wrong when I say grips aren't fully formed. They're probably super close for many folks. Close enough to not matter. Also, I don't want to come off as though I'm advocating getting a shit grip on the gun or something. I'm not get the best grip possible. Or as though initial grip on the gun is irrelevant, it is extremely relevant and we definitely want the best grip we can get.

But the old school 1911 way where folks are taught to hop on the thumb safety while the gun is in the holster isn't necessary to achieve a good grip on the gun or run the thumb safety. And I'm not convinced it's the best course of action, either. Especially with appendix carry.


I do not have a fully formed grip from AIWB or with my Production holster. As long as the web is in the curve of the beavertail, I can count on my grip being properly indexed. And even if I fox my grip a little, I can crush out the deviation with the support hand and still have a good index.

This is me with most IWB holsters (appendix or otherwise). It's a combination of ride height for maximum concealment and placement on body tends to generate a situation where I drive the web of the hand into the beavertail and then "lift" the gun into my palm with the fingers until I'm high enough to firmly wrap the gun up. I would say 95% of my grip is achieved while the muzzle is in the holster. The remainder is "fixed" when I clamshell around and smash the gun into the shooting hand with the support. If I go SHO I know that what I have established from the holster can run the gun.

Upside to the thinness of the 1911, if you manage to end up slightly offset on the draw it's pretty easy to fix it. But you don't want to end up that way if avoidable.

[Clusterfrack]

...95% of my grip is achieved while the muzzle is in the holster. The remainder is "fixed" when I clamshell around and smash the gun into the shooting hand with the support. If I go SHO I know that what I have established from the holster can run the gun.


Makes sense. I do my SHO AIWB draw differently than freestyle. My strong hand has to lift the garment anyway, so it’s already against my body. From there I slide my hand down with thumb in between beavertail and body. It’s a little slower, but gives me a more reliable index.

[Robinson]

But the old school 1911 way where folks are taught to hop on the thumb safety while the gun is in the holster isn't necessary to achieve a good grip on the gun or run the thumb safety. And I'm not convinced it's the best course of action, either. Especially with appendix carry.

You're right, it's not the best course of action, which is why I don't do it that way.

I remember practicing drawing to low ready during one of jlw's defensive pistol classes. It was no problem to disengage the thumb safety within the brief amount of time it took to go from the low ready position to a firing position and press the trigger.

My thumb doesn't touch the safety until the gun is out of the holster, and I don't click the safety off until I start extending the gun toward the target.

[Erick Gelhaus]

20+ years carrying a 1911 on & off-duty and several years carrying M&Ps with thumb safeties.

I appreciate the effort the OP put into the post.

I've spent those working with my thumb atop the safety lever except when putting it back on - I do the same thing with my ARs (or then issued M4).

As for the manipulation, it's straight Modern Technique methodology on one end, feedback from Mil guys on the other. If drawing to the shot, the safety comes off when the muzzle rotates on to the target/threat; if drawing to a ready, the safety stays on until coming onto the threat/target. The safety goes back on as I come off of assessing the finished target/downed threat.

[JonInWA]

Interesting thread. And great discussions. I've always be a "thumb on the safety shelf" guy, and I've never had any inadvertant safety deactivations. My main 1911s are my Gen 2 SIG GSR, which has a OEM extended thumb safety (not sure if SIG used a Willson or Greider), and my Colt Series 70 Repro, which has the OEM Colt "teardrop" thumb safety. Alos applicable to this discussion is my FN High Power, whuch has BH Spring Solutions SFS safety levers.

I'm going to experiment with an open mind with this thumb-under-safety technique, and see how it works with my guns, firing techniques and grips.

Best, Jon

[diananike]

Back in the 80's with GI A1 pattern pistols incl the left side only safety I shot with my thumb locked down but since returning to working with 1911s more recently I adopted the thumb on the safety and found I liked it much more. And this is more modern format pistols re ambi-safeties etc.

It complimented (or so I think) my dual use of Glocks with high thumbs. It did not play well with the USP I briefly owned though, I'd re-safe during strings of fire.

A little bit off topic but still relevant for those who treat a USP or HK45 pistol like a cocked and locked 1911.
I think the issue with the USP safety/decocker design is that if you ride it sometimes (at least for me) under recoil the thumb will depress it out of the safetyoff notch and partially into the decock range. It isnt enough to decock the gun but is enough to make a dead trigger.
My answer to this idiosyncrasy of that system is to ride the back of my support hand right beside the safety so it’s still thumbs high just not resting on the safety itself.
This leads to a very slightly different grip on my HK45C vs a 1911
I wish I could get a picture but unfortunately it requires both hands LOL

[TGS]

A little bit off topic but still relevant for those who treat a USP or HK45 pistol like a cocked and locked 1911.
I think the issue with the USP safety/decocker design is that if you ride it sometimes (at least for me) under recoil the thumb will depress it out of the safetyoff notch and partially into the decock range. It isnt enough to decock the gun but is enough to make a dead trigger.
My answer to this idiosyncrasy of that system is to ride the back of my support hand right beside the safety so it’s still thumbs high just not resting on the safety itself.
This leads to a very slightly different grip on my HK45C vs a 1911
I wish I could get a picture but unfortunately it requires both hands LOL

The best option if you want to run a USP as a SAO gun is to swap the $10 detent plate to variant 9. Keeps the safety, loses the decocker function.

In the case of the HK45, I believe you can do the same thing by putting a 5/6 plate in.

ETA: Here you go. Same plate, actually: https://hkparts.net/product/detent-plate-for-hk45-usp-variant-5-6-9-10-p1247.htm

[JonInWA]

My two initial thoughts after some dryfire practice with the thumb-under-the-safety technique:

1. Probably makes a 1911 marginally more viable as a threat management tool

2. Without much practice/muscle memory RE proper thumb positioning regarding the under-the-safety technique positioning, it can be somewhat disconcertingly easy to inadvertantly engage the safety when not desired/desirable.

Feedback, anyone?

Best, Jon

[CSW]

When I started on the 1911 in my teens, my father drilled into my head that I was not to draw with the thumb on top... Always under.
It just became 'old hat' to present the firearm in that way, that is, thumb under the safety until ready to engage.
He was lefty, and taught me on an old Remington Rand that had an ambi.
I'm lefty as well, so employing the m&p2.0 was the same process.

However it was near impossible to get my thumb to work with the Sig 938 when I owned one.
Like to think that like anything else, it comes down to conditioning.

[RevolverRob]

My two initial thoughts after some dryfire practice with the thumb-under-the-safety technique:

1. Probably makes a 1911 marginally more viable as a threat management tool

2. Without much practice/muscle memory RE proper thumb positioning regarding the under-the-safety technique positioning, it can be somewhat disconcertingly easy to inadvertantly engage the safety when not desired/desirable.

Feedback, anyone?

Best, Jon

To point 2 - I go under safety when safety is on. Ontop of safety when safety is off (traditional ride the paddle).

From the perspective of a "ride the safety" origin - The retrain part is really staying under the safety when you (re)activate it, as opposed to rolling back over and riding the top. (It's actually an elimination of a step).

The other part is training that if you're drawing to a ready position - the thumb goes under, until the press out, then roll over onto the top. I'll see if I can setup and shoot some video this weekend to demonstrate. This sounds more complicated than it is.

Make sense?

[CSW]

To point 2 - I go under safety when safety is on. Ontop of safety when safety is off (traditional ride the paddle).

From the perspective of a "ride the safety" origin - The retrain part is really staying under the safety when you (re)activate it, as opposed to rolling back over and riding the top. (It's actually an elimination of a step).

The other part is training that if you're drawing to a ready position - the thumb goes under, until the press out, then roll over onto the top. I'll see if I can setup and shoot some video this weekend to demonstrate. This sounds more complicated than it is.

Make sense?

Better said that I could.

[TGS]

I haven't been previously exposed to this thumb-under-safety idea. Given the tendency of "oh shit" reactions is to close the grip, it really makes sense, and I'm digging it. Not that I think riding the safety prior to firing is a problem, but I'm definitely partial to this practice.

Thanks for sharing.

[farscott]

This has been a very educational thread and has forced me to address some things I thought I knew. My habit with a 1911 is the safety is ON until I am on target. Then it comes OFF. When I come off target, I flip the safety ON. I have never rode the safety ON, resting my thumb on the safety in anticipation of going OFF safety.

Now when I holster, my practice is to move my thumb under the safety as I guide the pistol in the holster. That insures the safety is ON when I start guiding the pistol in the holster. It also helps to keep me from muzzling myself as I rotate the muzzle outboard when the thumb moves under the safety. When I break my grip, my thumb comes out from the safety and gets between the hammer and rear of the slide. I also release pressure on the grip safety, seating the pistol with just fingertip pressure. That allows me to sense something snagged in the trigger guard. The goal has always been to insure the thumb and grip safeties are all active, and nothing is pressing the trigger.

I need to see how riding the safety when ON and coming OFF target works for me. During some initial runs, my front sight moved when trying SHO. That is on me.

[JonInWA]

To point 2 - I go under safety when safety is on. Ontop of safety when safety is off (traditional ride the paddle).

From the perspective of a "ride the safety" origin - The retrain part is really staying under the safety when you (re)activate it, as opposed to rolling back over and riding the top. (It's actually an elimination of a step).

The other part is training that if you're drawing to a ready position - the thumb goes under, until the press out, then roll over onto the top. I'll see if I can setup and shoot some video this weekend to demonstrate. This sounds more complicated than it is.

Make sense?

Yep, thanks. Your explanation significantly clarified things for me with this technique.

Best, Jon

[1911Nut]

Jeff Cooper and Clint Smith taught my API 250 class at Gunsite in 1981. I was shooting a Colt 5" Government Model 1911 in caliber .45 ACP.

They both drilled into the students shooting 1911's to obtain the initial grip on the gun while it was in the holster with the thumb on top of the safety. Just on top of it . . . . not disengaging it. Then, when the presentation of the pistol was made, they instructed us to disengage the safety as the flash sight picture was obtained. When I returned for subsequent training over the years, it was still the way it was being taught.

I do not recall them teaching us to move the thumb to under the safety and leave it there after re-engaging the safety when shooting was completed or when moving between positions. They just instructed us to re-engage the safety in those conditions, but also advised returning the thumb back on top of the safety so it was where it needed to be when shooting resumed.

I'm not advocating a different approach or saying that what works for the individual might not be better, just explaining what I was taught.

And I figured that Jeff Cooper and Clint Smith probably knew what they were talking about regarding 1911's, so that's the way I have done it for 40 years (actually 40 years this month) and it has been a trouble-free approach for me.

I can't count the number of times I have made suggestions to new shooters to try that approach and see it it helped their times in competition shooting, only to be met with a blank stare. And then it's their turn to shoot, the timer sounds, and they present the pistol and fiddle around with the safety for a few seconds before they commence shooting. But that is certainly their prerogative.

Somehow, individuals have chosen to make running the safety on a 1911 much more complicated than it needs to be, in my opinion. I don't think I could deprogram myself to pick up or acquire the grip on a 1911 (or a safety model CZ 75) from a holster without my strong hand thumb falling to the top of the thumbs safety.

But I am an elderly boomer, and you know how "we" are.

[diananike]

The best option if you want to run a USP as a SAO gun is to swap the $10 detent plate to variant 9. Keeps the safety, loses the decocker function.

In the case of the HK45, I believe you can do the same thing by putting a 5/6 plate in.

ETA: Here you go. Same plate, actually: https://hkparts.net/product/detent-plate-for-hk45-usp-variant-5-6-9-10-p1247.htm

Man if they would ship to Canada Id be all over that.
I’ll give it a shot
I’ve been unsuccessful in finding a HK parts dealer in Canada

[rayrevolver]

As a 2011 rookie, I want to try this method. Shooting a 2011 with my thumb on the safety means the web of my hand is crammed into an area that just isn't smooth. At some point during a magazine it registers in my head that its starting to "hurt." I suppose its a distraction.

I wonder if the thumb under the safety will make a difference.

Good thread, thanks!

[YVK]

Jeff Cooper and Clint Smith taught my API 250 class at Gunsite in 1981. I was shooting a Colt 5" Government Model 1911 in caliber .45 ACP.

They both drilled into the students shooting 1911's to obtain the initial grip on the gun while it was in the holster with the thumb on top of the safety. Just on top of it . . . . not disengaging it.

That is easy to do when shooting and manipulating safefy at a 10 second El Prez pace, which was Cooper's standard of excellence. These days that standard is half that. Working a gun at that speed while keeping safety engaged until sights are on takes a bit more work.

[Robinson]

That is easy to do when shooting and manipulating safefy at a 10 second El Prez pace, which was Cooper's standard of excellence. These days that standard is half that. Working a gun at that speed while keeping safety engaged until sights are on takes a bit more work.

Keeping the safety engaged until it is out of the holster is not the same as keeping it engaged until the sights are on the target. The 1911 safety can easily be disengaged during the presentation to the target. If drawing to low ready, keep the safety on. If drawing to fire, disengage the safety before full extension is reached -- when the hands come together on the grip or just afterward. At the point the final sight picture is attained the grip is fully firmed up -- the safety should be off before that happens. At least that's how I do it -- it becomes quite natural with repetition.

[YVK]

My point was that when you're going for something like 1.5 second draw on 3x5 out of concealment, which requires aggression in movement and grip acquisition, keeping the safety off is not that easy, regardless when you disengage it after clearing the holster. A ton of people can keep it on till the right moment when working at moderate pace, and then disengage it right in the holster when they try to go fast.

[RevolverRob]

My point was that when you're going for something like 1.5 second draw on 3x5 out of concealment, which requires aggression in movement and grip acquisition, keeping the safety off is not that easy, regardless when you disengage it after clearing the holster. A ton of people can keep it on till the right moment when working at moderate pace, and then disengage it right in the holster when they try to go fast.

This guy ^^^^

He ain't whistling dixie here folks. I've seen (and done) exactly this my own self.

One reason why I modified my initial grip to place the thumb on the back of slide was both for holstering purposes and for drawing under speed. For awhile I tried "only while holstering" and tried to ride the thumb safety coming out of the holster. I found myself clicking the safety off sometimes standing in the holster.

Going thumb on rear of slide and then "rolling" the thumb from the back of the slide to either onto the pedal (drawing to target/shot) or underneath (to ready) helps tremendously with this.

But I'm not really in the 1.5-second draw to 3x5 range. I'm about 1.9 on that with a 1.75 on a real good day.

Hope I don't draw YVK (or about 3/4 of P-F for that matter) in our quick draw dueling contest. I ain't making it out of the first round.

[Gadfly]

I was taught long ago to not come off safe until pointed at the target. But that was shooting PPC/bullseye style as a kid. When I got to the Sheriff’s academy, they were big on thumb on top of safety. During the draw and at low ready, safety on and thumb riding, with trigger finger indexed. As you come up on target and punch out, safety comes off, finger still indexed until ready to fire. Basically if punched out ready to go, safety was off, finger indexed. If you tuck in, or go to low ready, safety came back on.

This was mid 90s.

SIDE NOTE:
we had mixed guns in the SO academy. For the sake of running lines, we were squaded up by pistol action as best they could with the numbers. After a few days of observing us, they tapped squad leaders. I was 1st squad leader with all the 1911/single actions. Squad 2 was TDA (lots of 226 and 92s). Squad 3 and 4 were strikers and DAOs, predominately Glock at that time. That way, each squad could move to the firing line and have the same range commands to go with their guns. (Like, “shooters, scan, decock, and move safely back to the holster”... and “shooters, scan, safety on, and move safely back to the holster.)

I was tasked to take my soup sandwich squad member and work with him on his shooting. He was.... just not cut out for job.

I was starting from the basics, and told him to slowly draw “by the numbers”. He got his master grip, defeated his holster retention (thumb break), drew to low ready. I had him come up on target and squeeze. We did this several times, but something was off. I asked if there was something wrong with his safety, as I was not hearing it click. 100% true, he looked me dead in the eye and said “what safety”....

Turns out, his uncle had loaned him the gun prior to the academy, and he had never shot it in his life. He had no clue how to take it apart or operate it. So this guy had been rolling through all our shooting drills with a cocked and unlocked pistol. Soup Sandwich is a kind term. Lowest common denominator is another term.

Nice guy... he got out of the academy, barely. Like literally a 71... to my knowledge, he was never hired by any agency.

Just thought I would share a 1911 novice story.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[YVK]

But I'm not really in the 1.5-second draw to 3x5 range. I'm about 1.9 on that with a 1.75 on a real good day.


Me neither, not with a 1911. It is a goal, with every gun. I am consistently slower with 1911 than with any other gun, save for micro guns, both for a single shot draw, and for "2 under 2 seconds" goal. My draw is slower due to thumb safety, because I am preoccupied with not disengaging it too soon and my grip acquisition is more deliberate and slower. My second shot is slower because 195 power factor out of 35 oz gun is a workout for me.

[SW CQB 45]

I have huge hands and my support hand size takes up all the area under the thumb safety when gripping.

I have been riding on top and controlling my thumb safety with the depression as I come up on sights and my muzzle is about square with the target.

We were doing push off drill last week and shooting just over the level three duty holster.

We started slow and increased speed. I could feel the control of the thumb safety as the muzzle rotated away from the holster.

I did not feel slow with a thumb safety 1911 but never sacrificed safety with the speed of that training session.

[JAD]

As a 2011 rookie, I want to try this method. Shooting a 2011 with my thumb on the safety means the web of my hand is crammed into an area that just isn't smooth. At some point during a magazine it registers in my head that its starting to "hurt." I suppose its a distraction.

I wonder if the thumb under the safety will make a difference.

Good thread, thanks!

Just to check that you’re following the way I am: the suggestion is to run the thumb under the safety (with the safety engaged) while not shooting. You’re still going to have your thumb on top of the safety when shooting.

Take a picture and show me where the bad gun is hurting you. There is often a solution.

[SW CQB 45]

As a 2011 rookie, I want to try this method. Shooting a 2011 with my thumb on the safety means the web of my hand is crammed into an area that just isn't smooth. At some point during a magazine it registers in my head that its starting to "hurt." I suppose its a distraction.

I wonder if the thumb under the safety will make a difference.

Good thread, thanks!

I shot a friends Staccato and its not for me in stock set up.

the back of the thumb safety is not contoured and dug into my thin thumb/web area of my right hand to the point of a laceration. if the thumb safety area closest to the grip safety was rounded/blended... that would be the fix.

https://i.imgur.com/g60mmwTh.jpg

[rayrevolver]

Just to check that you’re following the way I am: the suggestion is to run the thumb under the safety (with the safety engaged) while not shooting. You’re still going to have your thumb on top of the safety when shooting.

Take a picture and show me where the bad gun is hurting you. There is often a solution.

LOL, man I knew I would catch shit for that post.

But no, I am planning to have my thumb under the safety while firing. Thumb would only ride on the draw stroke.

This rear section just isn't smooth on 2011s, and I think I wedge the web in there while riding the safety. But recoil is light, so I am really unsure why I get that pressure sometimes. Definitely doesn't happen with Glock.

I'm still learning 1911/2011, but riding the safety seemed like the SOP and I have been doing that this past year.

https://i0.wp.com/staccato2011.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/AMG_4_P_Iron-scaled.jpg?fit=1707%2C2560&ssl=1

[SW CQB 45]

LOL, man I knew I would catch shit for that post.

But no, I am planning to have my thumb under the safety while firing. Thumb would only ride on the draw stroke.

This rear section just isn't smooth on 2011s, and I think I wedge the web in there while riding the safety. But recoil is light, so I am really unsure why I get that pressure sometimes. Definitely doesn't happen with Glock.

I'm still learning 1911/2011, but riding the safety seemed like the SOP and I have been doing that this past year.



this is the area that will cut me

https://i.imgur.com/6KQLvrIh.jpg

[SW CQB 45]

this is a WC BP thumb safety and its very comfortable for me

https://i.imgur.com/RTwz0aqh.jpg

my ACW thumb safety was also digging into me. Rob rolled it for me. He called it tactical.

Ouch
https://i.imgur.com/gQf02uxh.jpg

Same ACW with a tactical roll

https://i.imgur.com/n0Sh6Vyh.jpg

here is that Staccato from 2019

https://i.imgur.com/qKMdqVgh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/T1Rpnpnh.jpg

[CSW]

Just to check that you’re following the way I am: the suggestion is to run the thumb under the safety (with the safety engaged) while not shooting. You’re still going to have your thumb on top of the safety when shooting.

Take a picture and show me where the bad gun is hurting you. There is often a solution.

THIS!

[Joe]

We need to talk less about the gun and more about circumstances one would deactivate the safety/draw the pistol.

1) If I am drawing the pistol reactively there is some stimulus that tells me I need to get my pistol out and shoot immediately. In that case, you should deactivate the safety as soon as possible and get your finger in the trigger guard as soon as the gun is level/in the direction of whatever stimulus told you that immediate use of deadly force was needed. Think of the body-cam footage where a suspect rapidly produces a weapon and begins engaging the officer.
2) If I am drawing the pistol proactively then the weapon does not come off safe, nor does it come out of the holster with the same speed as if when it is drawn reactively. Think of the "bump in the night" or an officer responding to a report of a break in.
3) Thumb under the safety is a position for movement and administrative handling. It is not a ready position.
4) Thumb on top of the safety is part of a ready position. A threat is perceived as imminent.

Colorful Vignette:

1. You fastrope onto a single story structure in a top-down assault. As you clear the first room, engaging combatants at arms length, your carbine ceases to function and you immediately transition to your pistol and finish engaging the individual in your sector. Reactive draw, weapon comes out and is immediately off safe.
2. With that room clear, you're now in a position of cover and concealment, you safe and holster your pistol. Attempting to remedy the malfunction, you realize your rifle took a round to the receiver and is now ineffective. You sling the rifle to your back and draw the pistol to continue the assault. Proactive draw, no haste, weapon on safe.
3. Your team has moved to assault the next building across the street. They have near and far side security. You sprint across the narrow street, your thumb firmly under the safety, finger off the trigger. No threat is immediately imminent or identified. You need to move rapidly and safely.
4. You reach the door of the building, you're the first man in as no one cares about your gun problems. You bring the pistol to a high port position, thumb on top of safety, finger off the trigger. You are about to enter a room and shoot armed combatants at close range. This requires a ready position, thumb on safety is part of the ready position.

[TGS]

Joe,

I would say that the thumb under safety is a good idea even as you're making entry. The time difference it takes to shoot (in my comparisons thus far) is negligible. ETA: From a compressed ready, low ready, or high ready, it takes longer to get my sights on target than it does to deactivate the safety in either manner.

You won't always be on point, and it'd really suck to have a weapon at high port or trained up a stairwell, trip, and put one in the back of a team mate given the typical human "oh fuck" response is to clench the hand. Thumb on safety allows this to happen, and thumb under safety prohibits this from happening.

As I said earlier I don't think it's particularly problematic to run thumb on safety, but thumb under safety does seem like a better way to me.

[1911Nut]

This conversation has convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever that I am not a deep thinker. At least when it comes to 1911 thumb safeties.

I completely agree with the observation that the standard for speed shooting has changed immensely in the past 40 years. But for me, different positions of the thumb on the safety have never seemed to be the solution to those increased challenges. Remember . . . . I confessed I am not a deep thinker on this subject.

I am humbled, but satisfied with my current approach as taught to me 40 years ago.

And just to clarify my earlier description of how Cooper and Smith taught me in 1981: They instructed us to not deactivate the safety until the flash sight picture was acquired. And that's how we did it in the beginning.

But by the end of the week, I certainly was deactivating that safety as soon as the pistol had cleared the holster and was pointed down range, significantly before the sight picture was acquired or was being acquired. And my presentation/hits on target were coming much faster than they had been on the morning of Training Day #1

And I suspect other students were doing the same, though I never confirmed that. And neither instructor ever called any student on it. But I understand why they cautioned us to avoid premature deactivation early in our training.

[Joe]

If the shooter is startled and unintentionally takes the weapon off safe his finger is still off the trigger. So we would now be in the same position someone carrying a Glock is, that is our only safety is keeping our finger off the trigger. Tripping or falling doesn't prohibit us from carrying a striker fired gun, it should not prohibit us from assuming an optimal ready position.


Joe,

I would say that the thumb under safety is a good idea even as you're making entry. The time difference it takes to shoot (in my comparisons thus far) is negligible. ETA: From a compressed ready, low ready, or high ready, it takes longer to get my sights on target than it does to deactivate the safety in either manner.

You won't always be on point, and it'd really suck to have a weapon at high port or trained up a stairwell, trip, and put one in the back of a team mate given the typical human "oh fuck" response is to clench the hand. Thumb on safety allows this to happen, and thumb under safety prohibits this from happening.

As I said earlier I don't think it's particularly problematic to run thumb on safety, but thumb under safety does seem like a better way to me.

[YVK]

I completely agree with the observation that the standard for speed shooting has changed immensely in the past 40 years. But for me, different positions of the thumb on the safety have never seemed to be the solution to those increased challenges.



I share the same opinion. I still go on top of the safety for every draw. I just think that manipulating safety correctly while keeping up with current crop of good shooters is harder than a lot of people think.





But by the end of the week, I certainly was deactivating that safety as soon as the pistol had cleared the holster and was pointed down range, significantly before the sight picture was acquired or was being acquired. And my presentation/hits on target were coming much faster than they had been on the morning of Training Day #1



That is something that concerns me and is the reason why I am so hard, at least on myself, about late safety disengagement. We say disengagement on flash sight pic is the right way, then we push for some speed and now somehow flipping it off earlier is not called out. To me this kind of leeway leads to Grebner at times. I am gonna continue to be keeping it off till gun's on target.

[Rushca01]

If the shooter is startled and unintentionally takes the weapon off safe his finger is still off the trigger. So we would now be in the same position someone carrying a Glock is, that is our only safety is keeping our finger off the trigger. Tripping or falling doesn't prohibit us from carrying a striker fired gun, it should not prohibit us from assuming an optimal ready position.

Agree, at the end of the day isn’t a 1911 with the thumb safety off just a Glock at that point?

[RevolverRob]

If the shooter is startled and unintentionally takes the weapon off safe his finger is still off the trigger. So we would now be in the same position someone carrying a Glock is, that is our only safety is keeping our finger off the trigger. Tripping or falling doesn't prohibit us from carrying a striker fired gun, it should not prohibit us from assuming an optimal ready position.

So...dudes who have done a lot of carrying and shooting of 1911s around a lot of team members don't activate the safety on draw. Anyone can watch video of former Tier 1 dudes (Pat Mac and LAV are the first that come to mind) and watch them move with a 1911 in hand - the safety is on.

Second a 1911 safety off isn't the same as a Glock. Most 1911s are running 4-4.5 pound triggers, a full pound lighter than a Glock. And have a travel distance of less than a 1/4" before the break with 0-degrees of arc movement. A Glock has more of all three and really changes the dynamics.

[Joe]

I laid out clear distinctions about when to disengage on the draw and when not to. Your example of Pat Mac would also say to begin prepping the trigger of your Glock as you're pressing out. Please provide something either showing Pat Mac not disengaging his safety on the draw or dictating not to do that.

Never did I say move around people with the weapon on fire.

If we're talking about sympathetic response the 1lb more of a Glock and 1/4" more travel isn't making a difference.

But again...if your finger is not on the trigger it isn't going to slide down into the trigger guard on its own. Keep your weapon pointed in a safe direction, keep your finger off the trigger, keep the weapon on safe. 3 layers to keep you from negligently discharging into someone.


So...dudes who have done a lot of carrying and shooting of 1911s around a lot of team members don't activate the safety on draw. Anyone can watch video of former Tier 1 dudes (Pat Mac and LAV are the first that come to mind) and watch them move with a 1911 in hand - the safety is on.

Second a 1911 safety off isn't the same as a Glock. Most 1911s are running 4-4.5 pound triggers, a full pound lighter than a Glock. And have a travel distance of less than a 1/4" before the break with 0-degrees of arc movement. A Glock has more of all three and really changes the dynamics.

[YVK]

Agree, at the end of the day isn’t a 1911 with the thumb safety off just a Glock at that point?

There are "carry" 1911s that are marketed out of box with 3.75 lbs triggers, and nobody these days sells one with above 4.5. Glock is 5.5 nominally and many are heavier. 20% to 30% heavier trigger and over 60% longer pretravel. So, no.



Please provide something either showing Pat Mac not disengaging his safety on the draw or dictating not to do that.



PMac very specifically teaches that safety is on until gun's raised on the target, even if you drew already with an intent to shoot. Not just 1911, any firearm that has a manual safety, including striker fired pistols. Is this what you're asking?

[RevolverRob]

I laid out clear distinctions about when to disengage on the draw and when not to. Your example of Pat Mac would also say to begin prepping the trigger of your Glock as you're pressing out. Please provide something either showing Pat Mac not disengaging his safety on the draw or dictating not to do that.

Never did I say move around people with the weapon on fire.

If we're talking about sympathetic response the 1lb more of a Glock and 1/4" more travel isn't making a difference.

But again...if your finger is not on the trigger it isn't going to slide down into the trigger guard on its own. Keep your weapon pointed in a safe direction, keep your finger off the trigger, keep the weapon on safe. 3 layers to keep you from negligently discharging into someone.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rtN9CwkSwAY

2:00-2:02 in this video. Pat Mac draws the gun on the run, stops running, you can clearly here the click of the safety as he presents the muzzle to the target.

[Joe]

This example is wholly in line with what I stated in my initial post:
"2) If I am drawing the pistol proactively then the weapon does not come off safe, nor does it come out of the holster with the same speed as if when it is drawn reactively."

Again, I laid a clear distinction between reactive and proactive.


I laid out clear distinctions about when to disengage on the draw and when not to. Your example of Pat Mac would also say to begin prepping the trigger of your Glock as you're pressing out. Please provide something either showing Pat Mac not disengaging his safety on the draw or dictating not to do that.

Never did I say move around people with the weapon on fire.

If we're talking about sympathetic response the 1lb more of a Glock and 1/4" more travel isn't making a difference.

But again...if your finger is not on the trigger it isn't going to slide down into the trigger guard on its own. Keep your weapon pointed in a safe direction, keep your finger off the trigger, keep the weapon on safe. 3 layers to keep you from negligently discharging into someone.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rtN9CwkSwAY

2:00-2:02 in this video. Pat Mac draws the gun on the run, stops running, you can clearly here the click of the safety as he presents the muzzle to the target.

[RevolverRob]

This example is wholly in line with what I stated in my initial post:
"2) If I am drawing the pistol proactively then the weapon does not come off safe, nor does it come out of the holster with the same speed as if when it is drawn reactively."

Again, I laid a clear distinction between reactive and proactive.

Apologies, I misread the distinction portion of your first post.

We're on the same page.

Draw to a stimulus of shoot right now, I'll be on the safety as soon as the muzzle clears the holster and starts rotating up.

Ready position is an interesting situation. When I work careful clearing of the house, I'll often go onto the safety before I open a door or otherwise pie into a position to put a muzzle on a threat at close range (slow, deliberate movement). When holding and scanning and/or moving quickly - thumb under safety.

[Joe]

Yep, glad we could talk it out (especially in a civilized manner that seems to be absent from most of the internet).


Apologies, I misread the distinction portion of your first post.

We're on the same page.

Draw to a stimulus of shoot right now, I'll be on the safety as soon as the muzzle clears the holster and starts rotating up.

Ready position is an interesting situation. When I work careful clearing of the house, I'll often go onto the safety before I open a door or otherwise pie into a position to put a muzzle on a threat at close range (slow, deliberate movement). When holding and scanning and/or moving quickly - thumb under safety.

[TGS]

If the shooter is startled and unintentionally takes the weapon off safe his finger is still off the trigger. So we would now be in the same position someone carrying a Glock is, that is our only safety is keeping our finger off the trigger. Tripping or falling doesn't prohibit us from carrying a striker fired gun, it should not prohibit us from assuming an optimal ready position.

I never said it should prohibit us from carrying a SFA. I think I was also quite clear in my post that I'm not looking at this in a binary matter.

Rather, its a sliding scale of safety. A Glock is a safe pistol to carry, and without reservation I will continue carrying my issued Glocks and performing all manner of tasks with them.

When the USMS SOG adopted the Staccato, I thought that was a pretty good choice specifically for a team which is performing operations where the pistol will be out of the holster for an extended period of time, such as warrant service. I'm a firm believer that any sort of weapon that is not holstered for the majority of it's "work" should have a safety, which is why I hate the idea of those Glock chassis systems.

At the same time, I totally understand BehindBlueI's point of view. I think a safetied pistol is a slightly better mousetrap for certain uses as I've outlined. That doesn't mean a Glock is unsafe, but a pistol with a safety is objectively more safe.

To that end, while it's perfectly acceptable to perform warrant service with a Glock, a safetied pistol is still more safe. And, to that end, running thumb under safety is more safe, and seems like a better way to do things....all else equal.

You assert that riding the safety is ideal for making entry but are failing to support that assertion with anything objective. If it takes longer to get sights on target from a ready position than it does to disnegage the safety from a thumb-under position, then you can't really say that the thumb-under position is a hinderence.

This reminds me of a conversation we had years ago here, about people asserting that they're quicker if they start with a staged trigger than if they start finger off trigger. A bunch of members ran drills to test the hypothesis (prove the point?) that such a notion is bullpucky, since everything else involved in making that shot took longer than moving the finger to the trigger.

So, do you have objective data showing that thumb-under is a hinderence? Or just feelings? The latter lie.

[Elwin]

I've really enjoyed this thread, and I'm going to try tweaking some things based on it. I don't know that I'll switch entirely to thumb under right up until firing - with the high grip I posted about earlier, that makes for a lot of moving my support hand around to let the right thumb move up and then back down and up again. I'm going to try something kindof like what Rob just mentioned - if both my hands are together in anticipation of shooting soon, thumb on top of safety. Same I suppose if being prepared to shoot with one hand. All other times, especially when only one hand is on the gun, and most especially when moving, doing some non-shooting task, etc., I'm going to try making thumb under a habit.

[Caballoflaco]

I’ve experimented with thumb under the safety every day during dry-fire for the past week and feel like I have enough reps in to speak on it now.

I’ve pretty much come to the same conclusion as Elwin. My support hand grip is high enough that I can’t get my thumb under the safety when two hands are on the gun. However, if I had to do something like go up or down a set of slippery wet wooden stairs with the gun in one hand and my support hand on a rail then I would tuck my thumb under the safety. So I do think that it’s another useful technique for certain situations.

[rayrevolver]

Just to check that you’re following the way I am: the suggestion is to run the thumb under the safety (with the safety engaged) while not shooting. You’re still going to have your thumb on top of the safety when shooting.

Take a picture and show me where the bad gun is hurting you. There is often a solution.

In the last few weeks I have been messing around with my thumb placement. But yes, I did try to shoot with my thumb under the safety. I could do it but there wasn't any room, so the strong thumb pointed outward instead of forward.

I did figure out how and why my thumb hurt. So while riding the safety, I was riding it with all my thumb (and both thumbs pointing forward, my "Glock" grip), and when I disengage it, I was giving my thumb an "arm bar" against the 2011 frame.

I have since figured out that if I use a lot less thumb on the safety, almost like riding the edge of the huge safety shelf, there is no pressure.

My next focus is both on working the safety later in the draw process (aka on target) and trying to keep the thumb under the safety when it is engaged.

[RevolverRob]

FrankB posted this over in the Art and Science of 1911 thread. But it belongs here too:

Officer exits vehicle, thumb tucked under thumb safety. Maintained that index, no problem getting the safety down and executing the shot.


http://youtu.be/AuXDHL50dcw

[MDFA]

Okay, so I took my airsoft 1911 that I use for manipulation practice and used a red paint pen and applied a layer of fresh paint on the side and top of the thumb safety (not the underside). After a minute or too where it was tacky dry, I took these pics.

First just the Gun

68207

Next the standard way most people ride the thumb safety regardless of where the gun is pointed.

68208

68209

Now what I do - when the gun is not on target

68210

-

When I rotate the muzzle onto the target whether coming up from ready going to the two, whatever, then I roll my thumb over the top of the thumb safety and snap it down.

The end result you can see how much pressure I apply underneath the safety (enough that paint from the side of the safety ends up on my thumb)- here I've relaxed my grip to show you:

68211

-

This is something I've thought a lot about. The thumb safety on a 1911 is ergonomically placed that no detectable speed difference is found from using a hard index safety on and rolling on top of the safety to go off. If I've made the decision to draw and fire, I get on the safety early, but don't disengage until the muzzle comes up and get to work.

The hard index for safety ON comes into place when the gun is drawn but muzzle isn't on target or the decision to fire hasn't been made.

The reason I bring this up, is the hard index safety on has your brain registering that the safety is on: to shoot I need to go safety off. Regardless of which position you're shooting from a hard index on the safety adds an additional brain layer to safety on/safety off.

I also holster like this break the muzzle from the target, safety on, hard index against thumb safety back to the holster. Once the gun is in far enough that I have to break the index, I roll the thumb up between hammer and back of slide and finish inserting the gun.

This is exactly what I do with my 1911, High Power and M4.

[Bucky]

It's been some 15 years since I carried a 1911, and never considered this as an option. I was always 'thumb on the shelf'.

29 years of USPSA, and this is ingrained in me. I don’t think I could (or have the energy to) change it. I do know some shooters will safe the gun between positions.


A little bit off topic but still relevant for those who treat a USP or HK45 pistol like a cocked and locked 1911.
I think the issue with the USP safety/decocker design is that if you ride it sometimes (at least for me) under recoil the thumb will depress it out of the safetyoff notch and partially into the decock range. It isnt enough to decock the gun but is enough to make a dead trigger.
My answer to this idiosyncrasy of that system is to ride the back of my support hand right beside the safety so it’s still thumbs high just not resting on the safety itself.
This leads to a very slightly different grip on my HK45C vs a 1911
I wish I could get a picture but unfortunately it requires both hands LOL

Do you use thumbs forward? With my grip, I wouldn’t be able to do this on my USPc as the weekend would prevent it. Of course, SHO could be an issue.

[Bucky]

Agree, at the end of the day isn’t a 1911 with the thumb safety off just a Glock at that point?

Not a Glock, IMO. The Glock has a little more weight, but also more travel. Also, maybe it’s just me, but finishing the compression of the striker spring has a different feel to it then the trigger return spring take up that is typical in a single action only striker fired gun.

I would repose the question,

“ Agree, at the end of the day isn’t a 1911 with the thumb safety off just a P320 at that point?”