Can't take a life article

[Glenn E. Meyer]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/02/25/taking-human-life/

Interesting piece - the question being on whether you could take a life. This has been controversial for years. Ayoob discusses it on asking yourself this question. Marshall (albeit controversial) discussed soldiers unable to do that.

Violence: A Micro-sociological Theory by Randall Collins is long treatise on what factors promote or inhibit close in interpersonal violence.

In The FBI Way: Inside the Bureau's Code of Excellence by Frank Figliuzzi (got it from the library), he discusses trainees who quit after the first range experience with a humanoid target.


Anyway, it got me think about training scars, so to speak. I've seen some instances where folks walked away from firearms usage. In one case during FOF, two participants came face to face. One fired and the other didn't. The latter said that they couldn't do it. Left the training. In the same class, a self-proclaimed martial arts expert froze and just retreated until he was knocked down.

In another, using shotguns, carbines and handguns - one participant said that they would never touch a gun after seeing the damage to a humanoid target.

I respect those who realize this and make that decision. Good they find that out, I would think. Any other insights into such realixations in training experiences.

[Robinson]

It's a question anyone who carries or uses a firearm for self defense needs to try to answer ahead of time. I have not taken a human life personally (hopefully that will never change), but I have been involved in violent altercations. In those, I acted for what I believe were the right reasons and the fact that a person I considered an "evil doer" was hurt did not affect me negatively.

The morality of killing in self defense is something each of us needs to have already squared away as much as possible if we are to carry a gun for self defense. It's not really a moral dilemma in my mind.

[MickAK]

This is why I encourage people taking up shooting for self defense to get a little hunting in, even if they have no interest. Coming up on a still warm, sometimes still bleeding animal you just killed hammers home that pulling a trigger is a permanent event with permanent consequences. I think that gets missed hitting paper and cardboard.

[OfficeCat]

This is why I encourage people taking up shooting for self defense to get a little hunting in, even if they have no interest. Coming up on a still warm, sometimes still bleeding animal you just killed hammers home that pulling a trigger is a permanent event with permanent consequences. I think that gets missed hitting paper and cardboard.

And sometimes still heaving, coughing up blood, seeing the life go out of it. Yeah, serious business. I tell people I hunt because I eat meat and I don't want to be a hypocrite. Killing a deer and getting literal blood on my hands is my annual reality check, and I don't take it lightly.

[Casual Friday]

At one time I believed that even people who say they couldn't take a life would absolutely be able to if they found themselves involved in a violent encounter and there were no other option. I figured there had to be some type of self preservation instinct that would manifest itself.

Some time ago my wife and I were watching a true crime documentary about a serial rapist in CA. One of the women was able to get ahold of a pair of scissors while she was being raped and could not bring herself to stab him in the abdomen, throat, or any other vital area despite the circumstances. Instead, she stabbed him softly in the arms and other places she felt were not life threatening in the hopes it would stop the attack. He let her live, so I guess you could say it kinda worked for her, but not a strategy I'd want to rely on. What wasn't discussed was that he went on to rape more women.

In the moment, it may be about saving your own, but it can also mean saving the lives of others.

[randyho]

In the moment, it may be about saving your own, but it can also mean saving the lives of others.
Rubicon passed.

[BehindBlueI's]

I fully believe men are born with the ability to take a life, but get socialized out of it in the modern West. (The Dark Side of Man is a good read). I can't say I saw a correlation between hunting and a real shooting personally, but maybe because farm life includes slaughtering and processing animals. Ball peen hammer to kill rabbits, hatchet to kill chickens sort of processing. I get in the modern world that's a foreign experience to the vast majority of the population. Hell, there's a solid chance more people in the US are combat vets then have bashed a bunny's head and skinned him out for dinner. Hunting might be a good primer for folks like that, but I think realistic FoF may be better.

[LJP]

I think hunting has some merit, but I’m probably biased for a different reason. Having been in EMS for over two decades, I’ve witnessed so much death that it’s not even remotely abstract anymore. But as far as hunting goes, I’ve shot deer and hogs and happily eaten the meat, but I also made it a point to kill a hog with a knife a couple of times since I carry a knife for ostensibly defensive use. The connection is nebulous at best, but I still think a valid correlation exists. Hunting teaches you things about yourself that are hard to learn elsewhere.

[Trooper224]

Seeing death is one thing, dealing death is something else entirely.

When anyone asks me for advice on choosing a gun for carry, the first question I always ask is, "Can you kill another human being?" The legal verbiage of "Shooting to stop the threat" has always irritated me. I've always considered it an exercise in semantic masturbation meant to satisfy land shark attorneys. If we correctly deploy our weapon we know what the end result is likely to be, best to face it up front. After I've asked that question, if I get anything other than a simple affirmative response I advise them to forget about it. That moment of gravest extreme (credit to Mas for that one) is not the time to figure it out.

My years of training and street experience have shown me one thing: you never know who will rise to the occasion and who won't. I've seen men who looked like DEVGRU Delta Rangers turn out to be abject pussies. Conversely, I've seen people no one would have looked at twice turn out to be stone cold face shooters, on both sides of the badge.

[Totem Polar]

Hunting might be a good primer for folks like that, but I think realistic FoF may be better.

I guess I’ll chime in on that last line of thought, in the spirit of honesty, and presented for what it’s worth.

One of the odder take-aways from one of the ECQC courses I took was during the one-on-one grounded evo, during the round where it was my turn to be on my back, and Craig started us with guns out, and the other/support hand on the opponent’s gun. Since I was on my back, and I’d trained just barely enough spider guard in the local jits place to be a danger to myself and everyone else around me, I figured I could strip him, and give him the business with my j-frame (Craig had given me advance permission to run a J in the class, and I had used a 640 for the range, and let Craig control a second 642 with colored grips on it for the sim portion).

The upshot was me stripping his hand off the gun, and then unloading 5 sims into him at point blank, using what was in fact my actual most carried gun at the time (on my own time).

The evo went fine, and he returned the favor when we swapped places, and everyone went home beat up, sim scarred, tired, and quite happy.

The brain tracks visualization as if reality, and it clearly tracks that sort of sim/evo stimulus as reality too, because I know that I will take the look on his face when I put 5 in his chest to my grave. I mean, I never lost any sleep over it, but it was a very personal moment for a split second, and it’s absolutely burned into my consciousness for the rest of my life, or Alzheimer's, whichever comes first.

All to say, I think I agree with you about the FoF, without having any direct combat experience to compare it too.

(I’ve also shot a whole pile of furry and feathered things when I was a youth. The ECQC evolution was completely different. Something about looking into the eyes of another person while pulling the trigger on an actual J-frame is not for the faint of heart.)

If it’s all the same to life, I’m just as happy to continue on my way through it without actually shooting anyone.

[jnc36rcpd]

I highly recommend Michael Conti's "Police Pistolcraft: The Reality-Based New Paradigm of Police Firearms Training". Conti is a believer is point shooting, but I think the book has value to the most sight-oriented shooter or instructor (and I tend to be a believer in getting on the sights). Conti ran the first fulltime firearms training unit in the Massachusetts State Police and created a "house of horrors" based on Rex Applegate's training.

He noted some differences in performance in the house of horrors. In a traffic stop scenario, newer troopers responded much more decisively that experience road dogs. He attributed this, I believe correctly, to new troopers having just been graduated from an academy that taught any car stop could be your last. Experienced guys and girls, having stopped hundreds or thousands of cars before going through the training often reacted less effectively.

More to the point of this topic was the question of what units performed better or worse in the house of horrors. I would have expected, as did Conti that it would have been SWAT (or STOP as MSP calls them) or some high-speed fugitive apprehension or gang unit. Nope, it was the forensic science unit. These were troopers who went from major crime scene to major crime scene, largely murders and other violent crimes. Conti attributed this, as do I, to the fact these troopers knew without any doubt that that dangerous, violent people were in the world (or, at least, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts) and that immediate response to a deadly threat must be met appropriately.

County forensic sciences is largely civilian now, but I wouldn't have doubted the hesitation of the sworn officers back in the day to drop hammer if needed.

[peterb]

One of the reasons I recommend Kathy Jackson’s site (https://www.corneredcat.com/contents/) to prospective gun owners is that she has several articles on the morality and ethics of deadly force.

It’s not a decision to be made lightly. If someone has doubts about using deadly force I’m happy to have the discussion, but I’m not going to call them weak. I think the most supportive approach is “Ok, guns aren’t an option for you right now. Let’s talk about what else can we do to help you stay safe.”

Of course, if someone isn’t willing to use deadly force, there are some jobs they shouldn’t accept.

If someone enjoys shooting for recreation but doesn’t want to use a firearm for self-defense, that’s ok.

It’s good to be prepared to have a respectful discussion. I like pointing out that several figures widely regarded as peaceful — including that well-known doorkicker, the Dali Lama — think that deadly force used to protect the innocent is moral. But it’s a decision everyone has to make for themselves.

[BehindBlueI's]

The brain tracks visualization as if reality, and it clearly tracks that sort of sim/evo stimulus as reality too, because I know that I will take the look on his face when I put 5 in his chest to my grave. I mean, I never lost any sleep over it, but it was a very personal moment for a split second, and it’s absolutely burned into my consciousness for the rest of my life, or Alzheimer's, whichever comes first.

All to say, I think I agree with you about the FoF, without having any direct combat experience to compare it too.


I've mentioned before that while maneuvering for advantage in what culminated in my shooting I had the conscious thought "this is just like the Sims course we ran at in-service". And it was, only more so. I didn't mention VATS since so few people have access to it, but VATS was so real to me that I tried to approach the screen to handcuff on occasion and that's a very normal reaction. I can only imagine the realism of training that will be possible as VR improves. Probably to the point of being too real.

The aftermath (both immediate and longer term) is much more amplified, of course, but "in the moment" it seemed very very similar.

[peterb]

I like pointing out that several figures widely regarded as peaceful — including that well-known doorkicker, the Dali Lama — think that deadly force used to protect the innocent is moral.

Which made me realize that for some folks this is two questions:
“Is it ever ok to kill in self-defense?”
And
“Could I kill in self-defense?”

One probably has to sort those out separately.

[Gun Mutt]

I think hunting has some merit, but I’m probably biased for a different reason. Having been in EMS for over two decades, I’ve witnessed so much death that it’s not even remotely abstract anymore. But as far as hunting goes, I’ve shot deer and hogs and happily eaten the meat, but I also made it a point to kill a hog with a knife a couple of times since I carry a knife for ostensibly defensive use. The connection is nebulous at best, but I still think a valid correlation exists. Hunting teaches you things about yourself that are hard to learn elsewhere.

Several years ago, my best friend and I hosted a legendary barbecue and bonfire. We'd purchased a hog in the spring and another friend agreed to raise the pig on his farm all summer provided we paid for the food to fatten it up. Like BBI, I grew up in farm country and making meat from living things was not new to me, nor was the killing some animals because they were pestilential or dangerous or gravely injured.

Most of the attendees would be shooters we knew both in person and from another forum back in the day. Several of them expressed the desire to be part of the butchering of the hog so they could get the experience of cutting actual flesh with their edc knives. A couple even floated the idea of killing the pig with knives, but I nixed that as a) I didn't want cortisol infused meat and b) we really didn't need to run the risk of an early morning injury that screwed up an event so long in the planning with guests from three states driving hours to attend.

Two days before the event, my then girlfriend and now wife, asked if she could be the one to actually kill the hog. She went on to explain that sure, she's a meat eater and has no qualms about the circle of life that culminates on a plate, and yes, this would be an opportunity for her to be a part of the entire process. But, she continued, the real reason she wanted to do it was to put herself and her edc pistol (a 9mm Shield at the time) to as intense a test as possible, she felt that shooting and killing the hog would give her another level of confidence should she ever need to do so in self defense. And so it was.

I don't think it's critical to kill an animal as part of your mental preparation, but I do think it's a damn good addition to one's training if the opportunity is ever presented to you.

[RoyGBiv]

This is why I encourage people taking up shooting for self defense to get a little hunting in, even if they have no interest. Coming up on a still warm, sometimes still bleeding animal you just killed hammers home that pulling a trigger is a permanent event with permanent consequences. I think that gets missed hitting paper and cardboard.

Growing up in a big city, I have never had much need for or interest in hunting, but, did shoot 1 deer, partly for the experience of seeing how I felt about it afterward. The animal ran about 30 yards before it expired in some underbrush, just before dark. We searched past dark but weren't able to find it until the next day. I felt terrible about it and have never had any real interest in hunting game since. I'd go on a pig hunt if someone invited me, but, it's not something I desire to do enough to make it happen myself.

On the same day, my hunting partner killed a good sized doe and instructed me on how to clean and butcher it, strung up from a tree branch using a floodlight for illumination. Other than wanting some exam gloves to handle the gooey stuff, and not knowing what I was doing, I didn't have any issues with getting the job done. I smoked a shoulder and brought it to his house for dinner with his family the next day.

I do feel like the experience aided my understanding of how I might feel in a self defense circumstance. Certainly not the same thing, but, killing something as big or bigger than yourself is quite different from shooting raccoons off the bird feeders or coyotes out of the pasture.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just for info the Dali Lama said:


“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. Not at the head, where a fatal wound might result. But at some other body part, such as a leg.”

Can't really fault him, though. He has a different perspective.

Good discussion. Thanks.

[peterb]

There’s a line of Buddhist thought that killing mindfully can be an act of compassion.

———-

The following story is analogous to a terrorist situation. It is known throughout northern Buddhism. Communists even used it to rouse Chinese Buddhists to fight in Korea. The Buddha, in a past life as a ship's captain named Super Compassionate, discovered a criminal on board who intended to kill the 500 passengers. If he told the passengers, they would panic and become killers themselves, as happened on a Southwest Airlines flight in 2000. With no other way out, he compassionately stabbed the criminal to death. Captain Compassionate saved the passengers not only from murder, but from becoming murderers themselves. Unlike him, they would have killed in rage and suffered hell. He saved the criminal from becoming a mass murderer and even worse suffering. He himself generated vast karmic merit by acting with compassion.

The story is double-edged. Killing protects others from the horrific karma of killing. At Harvard in April 2009, the Dalai Lama explained that "wrathful forceful action" motivated by compassion, may be "violence on a physical level" but is "essentially nonviolence". So we must be careful to understand what "nonviolence" means.

—————

http://venyifa.blogspot.com/2008/09/story-of-compassionate-ships-captain.html

————

But that’s all the “Is killing justified?” question, not “Could I kill?”

[Totem Polar]

Which made me realize that for some folks this is two questions:
“Is it ever ok to kill in self-defense?”
And
“Could I kill in self-defense?”

One probably has to sort those out separately.

Concur.




I don't think it's critical to kill an animal as part of your mental preparation, but I do think it's a damn good addition to one's training if the opportunity is ever presented to you.


I spent a good chunk of the summer helping my buddy hump bait up a forested hill in the middle of nowhere, ID, to his long-term black bear hide. I was fully prepared to help him quarter and carry out a fresh bear, for some (though not all) of the reasons you mention. didn’t come to pass, mostly because riot season employment cut into bear stalking time, if you get my drift, but the fact that I’m a lightweight, new-agey coffeeshop musician, and I know it was part of the charm. Mostly, I needed the nature time and hard physical labor, but the mental/emotional impact was also part of the equation, again, because I’m such a softy by lifestyle.

Also, RoyGBiv


There’s a line of Buddhist thought that killing mindfully can be an act of compassion.



I’ve spent the last 35-40 years of my life running in largely artsy, newagey—and many times—overtly Buddhist circles. When the topic of violence and justice comes up, I have often laid this variation of “the golden rule” on folks as grist for the conversational mill:

“If, through some quirk of brain injury or disease fortune, my personality was so altered as to turn me into an amoral, psychopathic predator, rapist, and killer, the “me” that had been “me” all my life would really want someone who loves me to put a bullet in me before I could victimize all those people. I am absolutely firm in that conviction. That’s not that far a leap to caring for others as I myself would want to be treated”

That one always gets people to stop and think, hard.

[RJ]

I purchased a gun for "self-defense" in 2014, for the first time in my life. I'd had enough of stories of robberies and worse, being inflicted by assholes on people, simply for the contents of their wallets. I had no clue how guns worked; but I knew I wasn't going to be a fucking victim. These days, I try and blend in, and get through life without attracting undue attention. I watch everything that goes on around me intently.

But I'll tell ya, there is no doubt in my mind that if I have to use my pistol in justified self defense, I will do so, consistent with the laws in my state, without any hesitation whatsoever .

[peterb]

Kathy Jackson makes the point in one of her articles that if someone attacks you, they already made the decision that someone was going to be hurt or killed that day.

If you are armed, prepared and able, you have a say in who that is.

[Borderland]

https://youtu.be/T7-6dIwezSI

I especially like this movie as there is a character that doesn't want take a life. He demonstrates that by letting a German soldier kill an American soldier in combat. He had full control of the situation and still didn't act. In the end he decides he needs to shoot a smart ass German soldier who calls him a coward.

[pangloss]

I agree that hunting and growing up on a farm significantly impacts perception of this issue. I was in kindergarten the first time I went hunting with my dad, got my first shotgun in 4th grade, and started shooting squirrels and ducks in fifth grade. About that time, a murderer escaped from custody a few counties over. There was a big manhunt underway that was all over the news. One afternoon during this manhunt, some woman looked out her kitchen window and saw the escapee trying to steal their truck parked in the driveway. She yelled to her teenage son to shoot the guy because she (mistakenly) feared that the escapee had just killed her husband. The kid grabbed a .30-30 and ended the manhunt with a headshot. None of this would have gone down that way in an urban or suburban neighborhood, and I think it helped define "normal" for me in the rural south. When I was in 9th grade, I woke up at 2:00 in the morning with my mom's hand over my mouth and her whispering that someone was trying to get in the front door. My first words after she moved her hand were "hand me the shotgun." The situation resolved when my dad switched on the porch light, but if I'd needed to use the shotgun that night, I feel certain that I had the resolve. To me the issue reduces to personal responsibility. I am responsible for my safety and my family's safety.

[RevolverRob]

I think more of it boils down to whether or not people have had enough life experience to not panic in the face of danger.

I wasn't exactly the most rough and tumble kid growing up, but I remember a few times where I knew if I panicked, I was going to hurt myself badly or get killed, because I was doing something dumb.

More than once I've nearly died as an adult. Or more accurately, I was going to end up severely injured if not dead if I panicked.

If you panic and survive, you'll rationalize away the panic later. "Oh, I didn't react, because I'm a pacifist." No, you didn't react because you panicked and you panicked, because you're a pussy who doesn't do enough shit that scares you and forces you to learn to survive.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen many rock climbers, race car drivers, or deep sea divers hesitate to pull the trigger. They've honed their minds to recognize and respond to the danger stimulus and think out and find a solution to resolve it.

Personally, the few times where I've made the conscious decision to draw a weapon, I had a very clear understanding of what I committed to. I was presented with a life threatening situation unfolding in front of me and had tool(s) available to pursue what I thought was the best course of action at that time. I've never lost sleep wondering if I could have done what I was ready and committed to do in those moments, before the circumstances changed.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think more of it boils down to whether or not people have had enough life experience to not panic in the face of danger.


Having talked to many people who elected not to use deadly force, even at risk of their own lives, as well as people who elected to do so leads me to strongly disagree. To the point I'd say the opposite is true. Panicked people decide to use deadly force easier and with less justification. The fear of being drug through the media, criminal and civil court, lack of clarity on their legal ability to use the level of force considered in the current context, all are things that put the brakes on use of deadly force that only concern "human brain" and "monkey brain". Lizard brain does not give a shit about social standing, about legal consequences, etc. The more panicked someone is the more they lose human/monkey and rely on lizard.

Think of how often the concept of 'fear biting' has come up on the forum in the past. No, pacifism isn't panic disguised in many instances.

[KEW8338]

I dont think most people aren't capable of killing.

I think most people don't have a good grasp on the timing of killing people.

As an example, how often do people in bad situations always say "any second now it will all turn around ". It's almost a degree of not accepting reality.

Additionally I think a lot of mystique is thrown at the subject of killing. It's also taboo to many. Grossman is by far the worst thing to ever happen to killing.

[KEW8338]

I think more of it boils down to whether or not people have had enough life experience to not panic in the face of danger.

I wasn't exactly the most rough and tumble kid growing up, but I remember a few times where I knew if I panicked, I was going to hurt myself badly or get killed, because I was doing something dumb.

More than once I've nearly died as an adult. Or more accurately, I was going to end up severely injured if not dead if I panicked.

If you panic and survive, you'll rationalize away the panic later. "Oh, I didn't react, because I'm a pacifist." No, you didn't react because you panicked and you panicked, because you're a pussy who doesn't do enough shit that scares you and forces you to learn to survive.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't seen many rock climbers, race car drivers, or deep sea divers hesitate to pull the trigger. They've honed their minds to recognize and respond to the danger stimulus and think out and find a solution to resolve it.

Personally, the few times where I've made the conscious decision to draw a weapon, I had a very clear understanding of what I committed to. I was presented with a life threatening situation unfolding in front of me and had tool(s) available to pursue what I thought was the best course of action at that time. I've never lost sleep wondering if I could have done what I was ready and committed to do in those moments, before the circumstances changed.

How many rock climbers, race car drivers, deep sea divers do you know that have killed someone?

I loosely am in some rock climbing communities. While cool under pressure. Those dudes are like actual pacifist hippie types.

Eta
Also....panicked people kill dudes all the time. Maybe not the most efficiently. But they do..

[Caballoflaco]

I think it’s far more nurture than nature on this one. Locally we have communities where it’s not uncommon for women and teens to kill each other. Why, because in their communities it’s acceptable to solve problems with violence and they’ve seen it their entire lives.

Also, two hundred years ago upper class Westerners regularly killed each other for sport in duels over things we’re raised today to believe are “not worth a human life”, and public executions were seen as great entertainment. I don’t think the human brain has fundamentally changed in such a short amount of time.

I also think that just because someone vapor locks during a surprise or stressful violent encounter that doesn’t necessarily mean they are incapable of participating in either mob or group violenc/murder when they aren’t in danger themselves of being killed

[muzzleblast]

Kathy Jackson makes the point in one of her articles that if someone attacks you, they already made the decision that someone was going to be hurt or killed that day.

If you are armed, prepared and able, you have a say in who that is.

This really sums it up for me. The degree to which a violent aggressor "gets hurt" during the course of defending myself, or my love ones is irrelevant.

[Cory]

How many rock climbers, race car drivers, deep sea divers do you know that have killed someone?

I loosely am in some rock climbing communities. While cool under pressure. Those dudes are like actual pacifist hippie types.

Eta
Also....panicked people kill dudes all the time. Maybe not the most efficiently. But they do..

I think sweeping generalizations are kind of bad when they don't have caveats. Declarative statments are seldom absolutes.

I've met at least 2 rock climbers who shoot USPSA. One has shot someone in the chest with a shotun, albeit LTL I think. The other has deployed a weapon and the need to use it disappeared. Both are better shooters than I, and both have taken some other defensive classes as well.

They may be somewhat different than me politically, but they are not hippies, and are not pacifists. They're solid folks.

[KEW8338]

I think sweeping generalizations are kind of bad when they don't have caveats. Declarative statments are seldom absolutes.

I've met at least 2 rock climbers who shoot USPSA. One has shot someone in the chest with a shotun, albeit LTL I think. The other has deployed a weapon and the need to use it disappeared. Both are better shooters than I, and both have taken some other defensive classes as well.

They may be somewhat different than me politically, but they are not hippies, and are not pacifists. They're solid folks.

I've been climbing all over the place since 2006. To find a climber that's a shooter, unless he's mil, is a rarity.

You met the exception not the norm

[Cory]

I've been climbing all over the place since 2006. To find a climber that's a shooter, unless he's mil, is a rarity.

You met the exception not the norm

The fact remains that generalizations are best when they are made clear as generalizations.

[Moylan]

The fact remains that generalizations are best when they are made clear as generalizations.

Usually.

[Cory]

Usually.

Touché.

[kwb377]

I was involved in a fatal OIS three months before I retired from full-time LE work (a little over two years ago). One thing that probably helped my psyche was that the guy was genuine POS...so much so that his family not only didn't sue me/the agency civily, they sent an apology and prayers to me through the investigator handling the OIS investigation.

I was sent to the mandatory evaluation with the contracted shrink...and I just knew that he'd probably milk the State for a half-dozen sessions or so. Our first meeting he asked a few questions, then asked how I was dealing with the situation internally. "Well, the way I look at it...he was a shitbag doing his job, and I was doing my job. And I was better at my job than he was at his." His response? "Sounds like you've processed it pretty well...I don't see a need for you to come back."

Another situation that really helped me to process and deal with taking or seeing another life get taken (justifiably) happened about three years into my career. A lone State Trooper had been in pursuit of an escaped convict in a stolen van for @ 50 miles without assistance and was entering our jurisdiction. Several of our units entered the pursuit, and very shortly thereafter the suspect crashed, overturned and became entrapped in the now-burning vehicle. The van became engulfed so fast, that all we could do was watch...and hear the Banshee-like screams...of the bad guy burn alive. I remember the Trooper was ghost-white, as he was a rookie and it was one of his first pursuits. After we got off evening shift that night...our squad, along with our Shift Sgt., each bought a six-pack and drank them in the SallyPort. The words my Sgt. said to us during that decompression session always stuck with me..."He chose his time and place of where and how he was going to die."

Back to my pursuit/shooting...

By now, I was also a State Trooper (transferred to the State as an investigator after 14 years with the City...then did my last 4 years in Highway Patrol). My Corporal got tasked with driving from the scene back the Post to await an ET to take photos of me. He began talking to me and feeling me out as to my mental state. I began relating to him the story of that pursuit long ago with the rookie Trooper (that I never got to talk to afterward to see how he fared) and the words that my Sgt. told me that made me realize from that night on that the suspect bears the weight of responsibility, and how he chooses life...or death.

My Corporal looked at me, grabbed me by the shoulder as I sat in the passenger seat and said, "I was that Trooper that night..."

[Totem Polar]

kwb377, that was a meaty-ass post, right there. Lots to ponder.

[Edster]

As an example, how often do people in bad situations always say "any second now it will all turn around ". It's almost a degree of not accepting reality.



I have seen this. Some people lose fights because they don't accept they are in fights.

[TC215]

I have seen this. Some people lose fights because they don't accept they are in fights.

Extremely common. Denial is real, and all sorts of people think "this can't be happening to me" when it hits the fan.

I've posted this before, but a few years ago, I attended a presentation given by the narcotics sergeant that led the effort to track down the two terrorists from the San Bernardino attack. He brought along two survivors from the attack, who spoke as well. It was extremely interesting (and heartbreaking). According to one of the survivors, while the attack was happening-- gunshots are being fired, people are on the ground dead or dying-- a co-worker was walking around telling everyone it was just a drill. Total denial.

[Totem Polar]

Extremely common. Denial is real, and all sorts of people think "this can't be happening to me" when it hits the fan.

I've posted this before, but a few years ago, I attended a presentation given by the narcotics sergeant that led the effort to track down the two terrorists from the San Bernardino attack. He brought along two survivors from the attack, who spoke as well. It was extremely interesting (and heartbreaking). According to one of the survivors, while the attack was happening-- gunshots are being fired, people are on the ground dead or dying-- a co-worker was walking around telling everyone it was just a drill. Total denial.

This makes me miss William April. He really had a grip on this phenomenon.

Humorously, I was thinking of him big time when I found myself trying to push .38 special rounds into a 9mm Speed-Six, in chimp-like fashion, that I bought the other day. I simply had no place in my brain for the gun not being a .357, since that’s what the tag on it had said.

A good reminder that reality is non-negotiable; the fact that 4 people—3 sales guys and myself—were all convinced of a thing did not change the fact that I could have stood there in denial all afternoon, and still never succeeded in chambering a .38 round.

Reality is what is, and non-negotiable. Steve Ryan wrote that in one of his books on sharps, IIRC.

People are quite funny about reality, and the best of us are, at best, aware of that fact.

[RevolverRob]

This makes me miss William April. He really had a grip on this phenomenon.

Humorously, I was thinking of him big time when I found myself trying to push .38 special rounds into a 9mm Speed-Six, in chimp-like fashion, that I bought the other day. I simply had no place in my brain for the gun not being a .357, since that’s what the tag on it had said.

A good reminder that reality is non-negotiable; the fact that 4 people—3 sales guys and myself—were all convinced of a thing did not change the fact that I could have stood there in denial all afternoon, and still never succeeded in chambering a .38 round.

Reality is what is, and non-negotiable. Steve Ryan wrote that in one of his books on sharps, IIRC.

People are quite funny about reality, and the best of us are, at best, aware of that fact.

I miss Dr. Aprill for his measured response and thinking in many respects.

But dude, 9mm Speed Six is the heat. You know where to find me if you decide you need to part with it. :D

___

This brings up a great point though, reality differs from perspective. For me, my perspective is, it seems impossible that there is reality where people are incapable of taking another human life when justified in doing so to preserve their lives or those of family member. I really cannot fathom how someone, who isn't physically incapable of it, could fail to act. Yet I know that reality says that is true.

Still, I have an extremely hard time wrapping my head around it.

I really do not know what makes a human incapable of taking another life in defense of their own or their pack. Because humans are animals we have survival instincts that should supersede sociocultural constructs and drive us to fight or flight. Or to fight to flight. It's so deep, there are literally no animals I'm aware of that lack these core instincts. Which means those instincts are ~1.5-2 billion years old. They're fundamental to the whole game of life, of living; survive and pass on genes to the next generation.

When I've seen people fail to act, it always seems to be a vapor locked moment. They are frozen, unsure if to act. I have always attribute this to some portion of their survival instincts have been dulled too much. I do draw a distinction between not acting and doing something poorly. Doing something poorly is a direct result of preparation (or lack thereof - Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance), but it's still acting.

Doing nothing, denying it - I can't fathom it.

I've always had the mindset of, "Act know, freak out (if necessary) later."

[Moylan]

I was a town kid and never took any sort of life apart from insects until I suppose my late 30's. Oh, and that one skunk I ran over as a teenager. Unpleasant for all involved, I must say, though I suspect the skunk did get the worst of it. First thing I can recall deliberately killing was a squirrel. My oldest son developed an interest in hunting, which I'd never done, but I brought him out squirrel hunting on game lands several times and never saw a single squirrel. Finally one showed up and my son was unable for some reason to take a shot, so I shot it. I can't say it felt very monumental. I did not ask myself, before the shot, if I would have a hard time taking the shot. I was out squirrel hunting, so when I got a good shot at a squirrel, I took it. Seemed pretty straightforward to me. Delicious meat, too.

Later, when we moved to the country and got a little land, I took up deer hunting. My very first time out in the woods after deer, first time ever, I saw a deer walking directly towards me. I thought for a moment and decided not to shoot the deer. I couldn't tell for sure, but I thought it looked awfully small. It certainly had no antlers. It's perfectly legal to shoot antlerless deer where I hunt, and many hunters love to take the little ones because the meat is so tender. But I simply made the judgment that I did not want my first deer to be this little creature, and although I took the trouble to get my gun up and on the deer (to test my capability to actually do that work without the deer seeing me), I did not shoot. I did not ask myself, afterwards, if there was some deep resistance to shooting pretty little deer. I knew I had been out deer hunting and had made a judgment call about not shooting the deer--and I knew that I could make a different judgment call when a different deer showed up. I did not get an opportunity that fall, but on opening day of muzzle loader season the next year, a 4 pointer walked up on me and I shot him with no trouble. I've shot quite a few since. Never found myself struggling with the decision to shoot.

We've been raising meat chickens for the last 5 years or so. I put them in a cone and cut their carotids. (Or whatever they're called on a chicken.) It's not a day I look forward to, but killing the birds is just something that has to get done so we can eat decent meat at a price we can afford. It has never caused me any difficulties. We raise the birds to eat them, and to eat them, we prefer to kill them and cook them. So it's got to get done.

I've carried a pistol for quite awhile now, and never used it in a defensive situation, except once. A group of 3 dogs came into my back yard, and I yelled at them to go. One of them charged me. I drew my gun. Fortunately, the dog decided that I was not going to be intimidated, and he and the others left. I am a dog lover and I absolutely have no desire to harm any dog, but if that dog had taken about two more steps he'd have been shot. I did not shoot because I did not have to, but if I'd had to, I would have shot that dog and slept fine that night.

If some human being decides to put me in a position where I am in imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm, or someone I love is, I will shoot that person until he stops doing what he's doing. I'm a Christian and commanded to love my enemy, but I'm not expected to let him kill me or my loved ones. I don't want to hurt anyone, but if they choose to force my hand, I will respond as needed.

There are always questions that the outsider can ask--I mean, the outsider to my psyche--about how I could know how I'll react in such a situation. How do I know I'll be able to pull the trigger if I have to? Can I be sure? The answer to that is, yes, I am sure and I don't need to actually go through the situation to find out how I'll react. I've already decided how I'll react, and I won't fail in that resolve. Obviously I don't speak from experience and that makes my testimony of dubious value to others, unlike some of what our LEO or military members have to offer, but I do think it's important to take into account that you can and should have every confidence in your own firmness of conviction and the reliability of your decisionmaking in shaping your actions.

And though this might seem a bit of an anticlimax in some ways, it is helpful to me to know that I have ACLDN so that at least some of the potential practical problems that might follow on such an action can be forestalled.

[BehindBlueI's]

Extremely common. Denial is real, and all sorts of people think "this can't be happening to me" when it hits the fan.

I've posted this before, but a few years ago, I attended a presentation given by the narcotics sergeant that led the effort to track down the two terrorists from the San Bernardino attack. He brought along two survivors from the attack, who spoke as well. It was extremely interesting (and heartbreaking). According to one of the survivors, while the attack was happening-- gunshots are being fired, people are on the ground dead or dying-- a co-worker was walking around telling everyone it was just a drill. Total denial.

I can't even tell you how many robbery victims' statements include some variation of "I thought it was a joke" when I interviewed them. Repeat victims got with the program quickly. Especially those who'd been injured before.

[Duelist]

I miss Dr. Aprill for his measured response and thinking in many respects.

But dude, 9mm Speed Six is the heat. You know where to find me if you decide you need to part with it. :D

___

This brings up a great point though, reality differs from perspective. For me, my perspective is, it seems impossible that there is reality where people are incapable of taking another human life when justified in doing so to preserve their lives or those of family member. I really cannot fathom how someone, who isn't physically incapable of it, could fail to act. Yet I know that reality says that is true.

Still, I have an extremely hard time wrapping my head around it.

I really do not know what makes a human incapable of taking another life in defense of their own or their pack. Because humans are animals we have survival instincts that should supersede sociocultural constructs and drive us to fight or flight. Or to fight to flight. It's so deep, there are literally no animals I'm aware of that lack these core instincts. Which means those instincts are ~1.5-2 billion years old. They're fundamental to the whole game of life, of living; survive and pass on genes to the next generation.

When I've seen people fail to act, it always seems to be a vapor locked moment. They are frozen, unsure if to act. I have always attribute this to some portion of their survival instincts have been dulled too much. I do draw a distinction between not acting and doing something poorly. Doing something poorly is a direct result of preparation (or lack thereof - Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance), but it's still acting.

Doing nothing, denying it - I can't fathom it.

I've always had the mindset of, "Act know, freak out (if necessary) later."

Fight - flight - freeze. I’ve seen game animals that knew I or my dog was there and that we might kill them freeze so long trying to decide what to do that I could have killed them with a stick or rock.

[Moylan]

When I've seen people fail to act, it always seems to be a vapor locked moment. They are frozen, unsure if to act. I have always attribute this to some portion of their survival instincts have been dulled too much.

My impression is that freezing is an excellent survival instinct. Obviously, context-sensitive, though.

sorry for duplicating Duelist. I didn't see that one before I wrote this one.

[RoyGBiv]

This brings up a great point though, reality differs from perspective. For me, my perspective is, it seems impossible that there is reality where people are incapable of taking another human life when justified in doing so to preserve their lives or those of family member. I really cannot fathom how someone, who isn't physically incapable of it, could fail to act. Yet I know that reality says that is true.

Still, I have an extremely hard time wrapping my head around it.

I really do not know what makes a human incapable of taking another life in defense of their own or their pack. Because humans are animals we have survival instincts that should supersede sociocultural constructs and drive us to fight or flight. Or to fight to flight. It's so deep, there are literally no animals I'm aware of that lack these core instincts. Which means those instincts are ~1.5-2 billion years old. They're fundamental to the whole game of life, of living; survive and pass on genes to the next generation.

When I've seen people fail to act, it always seems to be a vapor locked moment. They are frozen, unsure if to act. I have always attribute this to some portion of their survival instincts have been dulled too much. I do draw a distinction between not acting and doing something poorly. Doing something poorly is a direct result of preparation (or lack thereof - Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance), but it's still acting.

Doing nothing, denying it - I can't fathom it.

I've always had the mindset of, "Act know, freak out (if necessary) later."

People here on P-F are the exception, not the rule.

"Why do you need to carry a gun?"

How many times have you heard that on TV or from acquaintances? I wonder what percent of the US population has ever had this conversation, even just with themselves. Ever seriously considered whether they could take a life in a me-or-them moment. Not just the bravado "I'd kill that guy if.....". Really contemplated it. Perhaps taken steps to test themselves or trained. I'd bet it's a small number.

[RevolverRob]

I wonder what percent of the US population has ever had this conversation, even just with themselves. Ever seriously considered whether they could take a life in a me-or-them moment. Not just the bravado "I'd kill that guy if.....". Really contemplated it. Perhaps taken steps to test themselves or trained. I'd bet it's a small number.

I guess that's part of my difficulty. I'm not sure I ever had the conversation with myself, yet I clearly came to the conclusion that I have no problem in taking another person's life if justified.

Having been in the position to have made the decision of 'me-of-them' at a fairly young age (14), I remember clearly my thought process that day in those moments. And none of those thoughts were about, "Can I kill this guy?" - They were, "If he moves one more step towards me with that tire iron in his hand, I'm going to ram this knife into him repeatedly until one of us quits." And I stood there already with a knife in my hand.

Maybe I'm fortunate, maybe he waffled on the thought of, "Can I kill this guy?" - Though I suspect it was, "I'm gonna get fucking stabbed if I try this." -

Regardless, I never questioned if I could, if I would, etc. I'd made up my mind, seemingly long before then. And straight up, I have never lost sleep over worrying over that part of it.

NOW - I recognize I'm an outlier on this spectrum. But it strikes me as so logical and reasonable that the obverse, being not willing to exercise force and take another life if necessary seems illogical and unreasonable. I'm not sure the two positions can be reconciled...

[Randy Harris]

As an example, how often do people in bad situations always say "any second now it will all turn around ". It's almost a degree of not accepting reality.




Part of the problem is that with most modern people in the USA most of them have only experienced violence through watching scripted violence on TV or movies. So while they may recognize "something isn't right" when confronted with a bad situation they often don't truly recognize what it is they are seeing unfold.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Freezing in the animal world works for prey animals. Many predators have visual systems keyed on motion. Staying still causes you to blend in. To get into the weeds, there are two visual systems - one for pattern vision and one for color, one for motion. Depending on your species you have different levels of sensitivity.

Can be determined purely from motion cues. Example:

https://michaelbach.de/ot/cog-Dalmatian/

[Randy Harris]

I can't even tell you how many robbery victims' statements include some variation of "I thought it was a joke" when I interviewed them. Repeat victims got with the program quickly. Especially those who'd been injured before.

People may not believe it but this is actually a real thing. People either think it was a joke or think while the weapons and threats might be real that the assailant won't REALLY do anything to them. See the "snow shovel shooting in Pennsylvania" https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ny-shoveling-murder-suicide-surveillance-video-20210204-uudc6ma5z5bv7gf6mdnizbwj2e-story.html. When James Spaide approached James and Lisa Goy with a gun during a heated exchange over dumping snow in his yard they taunted him , not believing he was about to light them up. They apparently didn't recognize what was actually happening.

On a vaguely related note I was a participant at the 1st Givens/Douglas/Aprill Establishing a Dominance Paradigm class in 2015. In one of the FOF evolutions one of the other participants pretty much did nothing at all when 2 guys brandishing guns (sims) came into the "office" looking for one of his co workers. When asked why he just hovered there around his cubicle and didn't try to stop them or to even try to just get away even after the assailants started shooting at people he said something about not recognizing it as danger and that he thought they might have been "playing a joke". Even though all participants and onlookers knew going in to the scenarios that the "weapons" were "real" someone still thought it might be a joke when confronted with armed assailants. As we often say, your brain cannot differentiate between training and reality and in that particular case we saw someone rationalize a threat (even in a training environment) as a joke.

[Odin Bravo One]

Never had issue with it. Never knew anyone to have issue with it. But it is definitely a conversation you want to have with yourself BEFORE you need to find out. Mindset during training can certainly help overcome any problems with this issue, it’s best to avoid those issues all together, by having that “Come to Jesus” moment before the festivities begin.

[El Cid]

https://youtu.be/T7-6dIwezSI

I especially like this movie as there is a character that doesn't want take a life. He demonstrates that by letting a German soldier kill an American soldier in combat. He had full control of the situation and still didn't act. In the end he decides he needs to shoot a smart ass German soldier who calls him a coward.

I have never before heard anyone look at the Upham character in any kind of positive light. There’s nothing about him that is worthy of anything but disgust. He was a coward and people with his personality type sneak into the military and LE more often than they should be allowed. I worked with a guy who reminds me of Upham and he’s a danger to everyone around him because he routinely would not act when it was needed. But he talked a good game when new people were around.

Im hoping you meant you liked that scene because it’s an example of how not to behave and relevant to this discussion.

[Borderland]

I have never before heard anyone look at the Upham character in any kind of positive light. There’s nothing about him that is worthy of anything but disgust. He was a coward and people with his personality type sneak into the military and LE more often than they should be allowed. I worked with a guy who reminds me of Upham and he’s a danger to everyone around him because he routinely would not act when it was needed. But he talked a good game when new people were around.

Im hoping you meant you liked that scene because it’s an example of how not to behav e and relevant to this discussion.

Just a character in a movie that portrayed an individual that wasn't cut out to be a combat soldier yet was thrust head long into a combat situation. I thought the scene did a pretty good job of depicting a guy with a moral dilemma. How people like that end up in combat or in LE I have no clue. A persons religion or moral convictions is their own business. If you can't shoot a person then maybe you shouldn't carry a gun.

[Moylan]

I think the movie shows his failure to save his comrade wasn't due to moral or religious qualms, it was due to cowardice--which he managed to overcome when his reputation was later on the line. And at least in this case, the guy was in combat because (a) he was drafted and (b) despite managing to land in a REMF position (no disrespect to REMF's--I was one in the NG myself), he got dragged into a combat situation because, after all, any soldier is first and foremost a rifleman.

I agree with El Cid that the scene where he fails to protect his fellow troop is strongly connected to this thread, and in his case it looks like maybe some better training was called for. Speaking for myself, as a former REMF, my 8 weeks of BCT training really didn't make me into an infantryman of any sort, including mentally. I don't remember it ever actually occurring to me during basic that I was training to kill commies. It was all very abstract. Of course, I was 17 years old and maybe too immature to really be there anyway, but that's another issue. I suspect that Marine training is much better at taking your average kid and helping turn him into a rifleman than Army training is. But I wouldn't know. Looking back, I wish I'd joined the Marines. Semper Fi.

[El Cid]

Just a character in a movie that portrayed an individual that wasn't cut out to be a combat soldier yet was thrust head long into a combat situation. I thought the scene did a pretty good job of depicting a guy with a moral dilemma. How people like that end up in combat or in LE I have no clue. A persons religion or moral convictions is their own business. If you can't shoot a person then maybe you shouldn't carry a gun.

Agreed. Sadly LE and the military hire people who don't have the right mindset. For a while LE was pushing folks to have a "warrior mindset" but the left and media have seized upon that as having a negative connotation. I agree there is probably a better word than warrior we should use, but I also think we need to do a better job of screening people for "it" during the hiring process. There are lots of folks in a profession of arms who have no business here. But that is all well above my paygrade.

Along that vein, I worked with a civil service employee who was a retired MSgt when I was in the Air Force. He admitted (and was proud of it) that during the Vietnam war he joined the Air Force because he realized it was the only service where the officers did 99% of the fighting. He worked on F-4's and loved that they sent the pilots and aircrew off to fight while he got to sleep in a real bed and drink a beer at the end of the day.

[Trooper224]

The Upham character was a standard war movie trope introduced to provide contrast with the other battle hardened characters in the cast. He's thrust into a situation completely outside his lane. Is he a coward? That's really an over simplification of the character. Naive and totally unprepared, but a coward? Not really. He doesn't shoot the German to salvage his reputation, because no one saw him fail to act, which caused the death of a fellow soldier. This is undoubtedly a cowardly act. However, when he encounters the German soldier he talked the Captain into releasing, he's slapped in the face with his own naivete and then realizes war makes monsters of us all, through necessity.

[EMC]

Thread reminds me of this scene. [emoji1]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210303/ae63343f41fffc68068719b000b5c686.jpg

[Trooper224]

Agreed. Sadly LE and the military hire people who don't have the right mindset. For a while LE was pushing folks to have a "warrior mindset" but the left and media have seized upon that as having a negative connotation. I agree there is probably a better word than warrior we should use, but I also think we need to do a better job of screening people for "it" during the hiring process. There are lots of folks in a profession of arms who have no business here. But that is all well above my paygrade.

Along that vein, I worked with a civil service employee who was a retired MSgt when I was in the Air Force. He admitted (and was proud of it) that during the Vietnam war he joined the Air Force because he realized it was the only service where the officers did 99% of the fighting. He worked on F-4's and loved that they sent the pilots and aircrew off to fight while he got to sleep in a real bed and drink a beer at the end of the day.

In the beginning there was nothing wrong with that. The whole point of the "Warrior Mindset" was to foster the spirit of persiverence. Pushing though adversity and prevailing. Standing up and winning even if you felt like giving up. Admittedly, that has become a bit warped to the point where many officers have the mentality of an occupying army.

Personally, I found that military service was no predictor of success as an LEO. Military service doesn't impress me. I've done it as millions have, so I know full well seventy five percent of the people in uniform are generally shit bags. I had to tell more than one rookie just out of the service, "in your last job you just had to kill everyone dressed differently than you, this job's a little more complicated. "

What you need are good people with developed critical thinking skills and the ability to think independently on their feet. The military isn't a steady predictor of that. If anything, I think the profession may need more country boys than servicemen. Being a state agency, my old department recruited from all over the state and country. Those raised in rural areas always seemed to be able to think on their feet more and needed far less hand holding than their city bred counterparts. The fact that firearms weren't foreign to them was also a pluse.

[Borderland]

What you need are good people with developed critical thinking skills and the ability to think independently on their feet. The military isn't a steady predictor of that.

I had a few friends that reenlisted. It seemed to me that having a job where there was always someone around to give you some direction was a motivator for choosing the military as a career, at least for enlisted people. I never fit the mold so I did one 4 year enlistment and bolted.

[Moylan]

The Upham character was a standard war movie trope introduced to provide contrast with the other battle hardened characters in the cast. He's thrust into a situation completely outside his lane. Is he a coward? That's really an over simplification of the character. Naive and totally unprepared, but a coward? Not really. He doesn't shoot the German to salvage his reputation, because no one saw him fail to act, which caused the death of a fellow soldier. This is undoubtedly a cowardly act. However, when he encounters the German soldier he talked the Captain into releasing, he's slapped in the face with his own naivete and then realizes war makes monsters of us all, through necessity.

That's interesting. I always thought it was the same guy who the team released, who stabbed the American while the coward cowered, and who the coward eventually shot. But then I only saw the movie once, and that was back when it first came out in theaters. So I guess I've been remembering it wrong. That completely undermines the reason I thought the coward murdered the guy, though.

[snow white]

That's interesting. I always thought it was the same guy who the team released, who stabbed the American while the coward cowered, and who the coward eventually shot. But then I only saw the movie once, and that was back when it first came out in theaters. So I guess I've been remembering it wrong. That completely undermines the reason I thought the coward murdered the guy, though.

I'm pretty shure it is the same guy who stabbed the us soldier. I just re-watched it like two or three months ago so its relatively fresh in my mind.

[kwb377]

I'm pretty shure it is the same guy who stabbed the us soldier. I just re-watched it like two or three months ago so its relatively fresh in my mind.

Two different soldiers/characters.

Guy that Upham kills ("Steamboat Willie")...

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120815/characters/nm0821152?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t13



Guy that kills Mellish...

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0826147/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t100

[snow white]

Two different soldiers/characters.

Guy that Upham kills ("Steamboat Willie")...

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120815/characters/nm0821152?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t13



Guy that kills Mellish...

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0826147/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t100

Ooohhhh yeeaahh! It was the guy that they let go earlier in the movie! I knew he was a recurring character of some sort.

[El Cid]

Two different soldiers/characters.

Guy that Upham kills ("Steamboat Willie")...

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120815/characters/nm0821152?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t13



Guy that kills Mellish...

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0826147/?ref_=ttfc_fc_cl_t100

I’ll be damned. I thought it was all the same guy. I thought that was why he let Upham live on the stairs.

[OfficeCat]

I’ll be damned. I thought it was all the same guy. I thought that was why he let Upham live on the stairs.

Been a while since I've seen it but my memory is that letting Upham live was a gesture of supreme contempt - he wasn't even worth killing.

[Trooper224]

I'm pretty shure it is the same guy who stabbed the us soldier. I just re-watched it like two or three months ago so its relatively fresh in my mind.

The soldier Upham shoots at the end is the one they let go at the radar installation. The German soldier who kills Mellish isn't seen in any other scene.

[Trooper224]

Been a while since I've seen it but my memory is that letting Upham live was a gesture of supreme contempt - he wasn't even worth killing.

Correct, Upham simply wasn't worth his time.

[kwb377]

Been a while since I've seen it but my memory is that letting Upham live was a gesture of supreme contempt - he wasn't even worth killing.

He could see Upham's cowardice and knew he wasn't a threat. I think that's what finally spurred Upham to shoot Steamboat Willie, although in my eyes it doesn't redeem him...he does it when there's absolutely no risk of peril to himself. In fact, while Upham is hiding and watching Steamboat Willie and the other Germans firing at the Rangers across the bridge, if I remember correctly they show a shot of Steamboat Willie firing his K98 and the camera angle is showing his sights...and I believe Capt. Miller is the target (blurry in the scene). Upham could have acted sooner and possibly saved some of the Rangers, but it would have meant manning up...and he didn't do it.


*Edit: Looked it up...yep, Steamboat Willie is the one that tags Capt. Miller in the chest. The irony is that Capt. Miller is the one that decided to spare Willie's life earlier.

At the 21 second mark in the video...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpPd0fxXOpk

[Odin Bravo One]

Not only is Upham’s decision to smoke check Steamboat Willie cowardly, it was also criminal.......sadly we have many brave men who are rotting in prison from righteous shoots, but the pussies who pull shit like that always seem to skate free based on twisted perverse interpretations of the totality of the circumstances. In this case, it was just a movie depicting a specific event, but it happens in real life all the time.

[rcbusmc24]

I faced that decision early in life as a Christian and it was not something I took lightly. Since Vietnam was going on and I faced joining ROTC. Each person must make that decision for themselves before they carry a gun!!! Honestly, I personally had to wrestle with the issue more than most due to many reasons I will not bother you here but eventually came to the decision that I am a "sheepdog" here to help protect the flock. Since I was a very young child I displayed a natural talent with firearms, hunting, and tracking. I have been accused of being a "Boy Scout" in an unflattering since but I am actually an Eagle Scout with extremely High Moral Valves I know and admit exceeds those of average people. I spent three years training in a Counter Insurgency Unit run by the Green Berets as part of our ROTC program where they said they were going to teach us to "do to the VC what the VC do to everyone else". I wanted an Infantry slot when I graduated but was denied because a fellow ROTC cadet tried to get out of going in the Army by joining the local police force and claiming a exemption to service. That angered the Professor of Military Science and since there was only one Infantry slot left he decided to hold it for him when the Army lawyers go through him. I tried my best to get the Professor of Military Science to let me have the slot to no avail. My second cousin was a Major General in the Airborne Infantry which is where I aspired to go. NO Luck, I ended up in Air Defense Artillery, which was about as far from where I want as I could get and still be technically in a "combat branch."

After I got out of the regular army and resigned my commission. I joined the only US Army National Guard Airborne Infantry unit. They offered me my commission back but I refused and went in as an E-5. I promised my Captain, who I found out had done three combat tours in Nam, that after a year if he still wanted me as an officer I would accept my commission back. Before the year was up "Solider of Fortune" magazine did an article on our unit and rated us as more combat ready than all the regular Army units except the 101st and 82nd Airborne. It embarrassed the Pentagon Brass so they disbanded our unit that was centered in Texas and moved it to California for years until such time they found there were not enough volunteers in California so had to eventually move it back to Texas. I was done though. No more games with peoples' lives for me. The Army Guard had placed me in an Army Guard MASH unit for the remainder of my time. What a FARCE! The head nurse could not make summer camp because she was to far pregnant and no one was sure who in the unit the father was (It was like an episode out of the TV show MASH). I was the ONLY "Combat Qualified Solider" in the unit. NO MORE FOR ME I WAS THROUGH!!!

Cool Story Bro.....:confused:

[DDTSGM]

Cool Story Bro.....:confused:

Did he break the internet, or, what?

69148

[Joe in PNG]

Did he break the internet, or, what?

69148

The unreachable page 8

[DDTSGM]

The unreachable page 8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo7VlD66ISM