LPVOs in 2023 and beyond

[Nephrology]

I don't disagree but Leupold does have other scopes with more "current" features. The VX-6HD comes readily to mind as does Mark 5 and 6 line.

With that said I'd preferred something closer to 1x at the low end certainly. If anything kills the new Mark 3 LPVO it will be the 1.5x minimum.



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Isn't the Mark 6 discontinued?

[Clusterfrack]

Isn't the Mark 6 discontinued?

Sadly, yes. It is a great scope. I have no plans to part with mine.

[Tokarev]

Sadly, yes. It is a great scope. I have no plans to part with mine.


Isn't the Mark 6 discontinued?

Are you fellows referring to the Mark 4 line? There are still several options for the Mark 6.

https://www.leupold.com/shop/riflescopes/series/mark-6-rifle-scopes



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[Nephrology]

Sadly, yes. It is a great scope. I have no plans to part with mine.

Not sure I'll ever understand Leupold's catalog ADHD. They're like SIG's evil twin.

[Nephrology]

Are you fellows referring to the Mark 4 line? There are still several options for the Mark 6.

https://www.leupold.com/shop/riflescopes/series/mark-6-rifle-scopes



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They still list it on their website but it shows as discontinued everywhere else.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1362182342

Leupold's listing (https://www.leupold.com/mark-6-1-6x20-m6c1-illum-ffp-tmr-d-riflescope) also states that they are gov't issue only. Not sure what that ns exactly.

[Tokarev]

They still list it on their website but it shows as discontinued everywhere else.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1362182342

Leupold's listing (https://www.leupold.com/mark-6-1-6x20-m6c1-illum-ffp-tmr-d-riflescope) also states that they are gov't issue only. Not sure what that ns exactly.Dunno then. Maybe they're phasing that line out in favor of the Mark 5?

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[Clusterfrack]

I can try to find out.

[HCM]

My understanding is the Mk6 series is not completely discontinued. They are still available to LE/MIL/GOV but are no longer offered commercially.

Not sure if the LE/GOV includes individuals or only agency contracts.

[Tokarev]

I talked with Michael Baccellieri briefly today. He says the Mark 3 stuff is probably going to start shipping in 3 or 4 months.

The scope(s) are definitely made to hit a price point while still being "duty" worthy. Good coatings on the glass, good durability, etc.

I wanted to ask about the future plans for the Mark 6 line but he had to take another call so I didn't get the chance. I'll try to remember next time I talk to him.


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[msstate56]

I absolutely love my Mark 5 scopes on precision rifles, but Leupold is dead to me as far as LPVOS go. Until they figure out daylight bright, and 1x in a new scope- I don’t even consider looking at Leupold.

[Tokarev]

I absolutely love my Mark 5 scopes on precision rifles, but Leupold is dead to me as far as LPVOS go. Until they figure out daylight bright, and 1x in a new scope- I don’t even consider looking at Leupold.They've certainly had their share of innovations. The CQ/T was a good early entrant into the LVPO market. It was followed up by the CQB/SS which was another scope that made the market sit up and take notice. These were followed by the LCO and the DEVO. Both were good optics but the LCO was too expensive when compared to everything else and the DEVO? Not sure why it didn't really catch on although it was launched at a time when red dots+magnifiers was sort of no longer a thing.

Anyway, is the lack of 1x at the low end really a deal breaker if the optic performs in other areas? Good light transmission, ability to handle some abuse and hold zero, light weight and affordable price are all attractive features. I assume the fire dot reticle will be as bright as the one used in the VX-R Patrol.

I have one of the old Mark 4 MRT scopes that was another early entry into LPVO. It is 1.5x on its low end. It didn't really take long for my dominant eye to get used to having a bit of magnification when running it like a red dot up close. Where I did see some challenge was while shooting left shoulder/left eye. Closing my right eye while shooting support side fixed it but closing my dominant eye also takes some getting used to.

Lots of unknowns for the Mark 3 stuff as of now. As I said above, the lack of 1x will likely kill it even if that's somewhat of a marketing issue rather than strictly a performance issue.

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[msstate56]

Anyway, is the lack of 1x at the low end really a deal breaker if the optic performs in other areas?

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With all the other options out there? Yes it’s most certainly a deal breaker. It’s not like Leupold doesn’t know how to make a 1x-6(ish). It’s like they purposely won’t try. The firedot reticle on the VX-R was nice, but I can’t stand the push button illumination control. The Mark 5 and 6 both use an “industry standard” rotary dial, with off in between each setting.

I swear Leupold is either intentionally sabotaging themselves, or they really are that clueless as to what the market wants. The Mark 5 line is stellar, everything else? No thanks.

[Clusterfrack]

I swear Leupold is either intentionally sabotaging themselves, or they really are that clueless as to what the market wants. The Mark 5 line is stellar, everything else? No thanks.

I've tried to understand this as well. It's puzzling, given some really smart people I know there. I've heard it said that hunting and cush .mil contracts drive most of their product development.

[Clusterfrack]

... is the lack of 1x at the low end really a deal breaker if the optic performs in other areas?


Definitely for me, it is a dealbreaker. My requirements: Daylight bright illumination, true, bright 1x, mil/mil FFP with a usable reticle, and <20oz.

I do not care about magnification above 6x.

[dontshakepandas]

Definitely for me, it is a dealbreaker. My requirements: Daylight bright illumination, true, bright 1x, mil/mil FFP with a usable reticle, and <20oz.

I do not care about magnification above 6x.

It's a dealbreaker for me too. As is not having daylight bright illumination.

My reticle preference depends on the intended use though. For general purpose or mostly close engagements but some far, I prefer a SFP reticle and don't need over 6x. I like SFP better for this usage since I can pick the reticle up easier without illumination if needed. For more precision based or "more far away but some close engagements" I prefer FFP and I'll take magnification over 6x if I can get it.

[Tokarev]

.mil contracts drive most of their product development.

This makes me wonder if the Mark 3 was designed to meet a military or government requirement. This might be (part of at least) the answer given some of the retro specs.

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[KEW8338]

Definitely for me, it is a dealbreaker. My requirements: Daylight bright illumination, true, bright 1x, mil/mil FFP with a usable reticle, and <20oz.

I do not care about magnification above 6x.

Just curious;

What scope fits that bill? ATACR and Razor 3 kinda fit that.

Why daylight bright?

Why true 1x?

Why go mil/mil/FFP, then limit to 6x?

[Clusterfrack]

Good questions. My carbines are used for home / backcountry defense and "practical" competitive shooting.

The ATACR 1-8 is an excellent scope, but very spendy. The new S&B 1-8 looks like it may be the one scope to rule them all, but at nearly $5k it better be. Have a look at this review for what my perfect LPVO looks like. I will not be buying one unless I win the lottery.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/05/12/review-the-1-8x24-pm-ii-shortdot-dual-cc-the-warscope-from-schmidt-bender/

The EOTech Vudu 1-6 with the SR-1 reticle is my favorite LPVO for the money right now. It checks all the boxes for around $1200, and can be had significantly cheaper on sale.
https://www.cstactical.com/eotech-vudu-1-6x24-ffp-riflescope

I haven't had time behind any of the 1-10x scopes yet, but am skeptical. Every 8x or 10x scope I have used comes with significant optical tradeoffs--especially a cramped eye box. I would take a wide, bright 1x in a 6x scope any day over a 10x without that.

Daylight bright illumination and true 1x. I want my carbine scope to perform nearly as well at 1x as an Aimpoint or MRO. I have to be able to shoot both eyes open with target focus, move with rifle mounted, fast target transitions, etc. All the things you need to do for high hit factor shooting with a carbine.

Mil/mil: I do not use MOA scopes because there's no reason to. A BDC style scope can be useful though, but I still prefer mil turrets.

FFP: I want to be able to use reticle holdoffs for elevation and windage at magnifications ranging from ~3x to max. This is especially important for moving targets.


Just curious;

What scope fits that bill? ATACR and Razor 3 kinda fit that.

Why daylight bright?

Why true 1x?

Why go mil/mil/FFP, then limit to 6x?

[KEW8338]

Good questions. My carbines are used for home / backcountry defense and "practical" competitive shooting.

The ATACR 1-8 is an excellent scope, but very spendy. The new S&B 1-8 looks like it may be the one scope to rule them all, but at nearly $5k it better be. Have a look at this review for what my perfect LPVO looks like. I will not be buying one unless I win the lottery.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/05/12/review-the-1-8x24-pm-ii-shortdot-dual-cc-the-warscope-from-schmidt-bender/

The EOTech Vudu 1-6 with the SR-1 reticle is my favorite LPVO for the money right now. It checks all the boxes for around $1200, and can be had significantly cheaper on sale.
https://www.cstactical.com/eotech-vudu-1-6x24-ffp-riflescope

I haven't had time behind any of the 1-10x scopes yet, but am skeptical. Every 8x or 10x scope I have used comes with significant optical tradeoffs--especially a cramped eye box. I would take a wide, bright 1x in a 6x scope any day over a 10x without that.

Daylight bright illumination and true 1x. I want my carbine scope to perform nearly as well at 1x as an Aimpoint or MRO. I have to be able to shoot both eyes open with target focus, move with rifle mounted, fast target transitions, etc. All the things you need to do for high hit factor shooting with a carbine.

Mil/mil: I do not use MOA scopes because there's no reason to. A BDC style scope can be useful though, but I still prefer mil turrets.

FFP: I want to be able to use reticle holdoffs for elevation and windage at magnifications ranging from ~3x to max. This is especially important for moving targets.

The reticle in that schmidt looks terrible. Nor has schmidt ever impressed me.

I do not have the most amount of time behind the Razor III. Using it a little. I am impressed with it.

Perform as well as an aimpoint/eotech etc is more a matter of training than the gear. There are things in specific LVPOs that lend themselves to easier use doing this.

Fast target transitions is going to come from a rock solid index and visual maturity.

I am all about Mils

ETA:

What I care about, outside of the normal stuff, in no particular order
-Box testing the adjustments
-Field of view
-Reticle set up

Weight and daylight bright illum dont do much for me

[Clusterfrack]

The reticle in that schmidt looks terrible. Nor has schmidt ever impressed me.


Check. Reticles are a very personal thing.

My PM2 5-25 MSR is the best scope I have owned, or used.

[pastaslinger]

With all the other options out there? Yes it’s most certainly a deal breaker. It’s not like Leupold doesn’t know how to make a 1x-6(ish). It’s like they purposely won’t try. The firedot reticle on the VX-R was nice, but I can’t stand the push button illumination control. The Mark 5 and 6 both use an “industry standard” rotary dial, with off in between each setting.

I swear Leupold is either intentionally sabotaging themselves, or they really are that clueless as to what the market wants. The Mark 5 line is stellar, everything else? No thanks.

I really want Leupold to make a 3.6-18x mk5 with a Christmas tree reticle like the razor gen II or athlon cronus have

[rob_s]

since the "1.x-Y" (as I called them at the time because nobody was even claiming "true" 1x) came on the scene, what people wanted from them varied, mostly dependent on which end of the spectrum they were coming from:
(A) magnified scope with an RDS or other 1x aiming option
(B) RDS with a magnifier

When guy A starts talking to guy B, it almost always ends in talking past one another. Guy A doesn't care about true 1x, daylight bright, or weight. Guy B doesn't care about max magnification, mils vs whatever, or even often SFP vs FFP. neither can understand what the other one truly wants. then you factor in never-weres that have fantasies of snipering and usta-bes that haven't yet wrapped their head around being non-operational anymore, and it gets messy. Add in the internet and it just all goes to hell.

I confess to falling in neither camp, as my favorite optic was always the TA33. and I never did and don't want to.

[Clusterfrack]

I really want Leupold to make a 3.6-18x mk5 with a Christmas tree reticle like the razor gen II or athlon cronus have

https://www.leupold.com/mark-5hd-36-18x44-m5c3-ffp-cch-riflescope

[Nephrology]

I'm still pretty thrilled with the Razor IIE 1-6. It's my favorite LPVO so far.

I remain happy with my Meopta ZD 1-4 for what I paid for it, but it's definitely a little outdated v. the Razor.

[pastaslinger]

https://www.leupold.com/mark-5hd-36-18x44-m5c3-ffp-cch-riflescope

I want an even simpler tree like the Athlon or Vortex ones have. This is closer to a horus reticle.

[joshs]

I want an even simpler tree like the Athlon or Vortex ones have. This is closer to a horus reticle.

They'll probably put the PR-2 in the 3.6-18 soon. It's a really cool reticle.

[mrozowjj]

Good questions. My carbines are used for home / backcountry defense and "practical" competitive shooting.

The ATACR 1-8 is an excellent scope, but very spendy. The new S&B 1-8 looks like it may be the one scope to rule them all, but at nearly $5k it better be. Have a look at this review for what my perfect LPVO looks like. I will not be buying one unless I win the lottery.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/05/12/review-the-1-8x24-pm-ii-shortdot-dual-cc-the-warscope-from-schmidt-bender/

The EOTech Vudu 1-6 with the SR-1 reticle is my favorite LPVO for the money right now. It checks all the boxes for around $1200, and can be had significantly cheaper on sale.
https://www.cstactical.com/eotech-vudu-1-6x24-ffp-riflescope

I haven't had time behind any of the 1-10x scopes yet, but am skeptical. Every 8x or 10x scope I have used comes with significant optical tradeoffs--especially a cramped eye box. I would take a wide, bright 1x in a 6x scope any day over a 10x without that.

Daylight bright illumination and true 1x. I want my carbine scope to perform nearly as well at 1x as an Aimpoint or MRO. I have to be able to shoot both eyes open with target focus, move with rifle mounted, fast target transitions, etc. All the things you need to do for high hit factor shooting with a carbine.

Mil/mil: I do not use MOA scopes because there's no reason to. A BDC style scope can be useful though, but I still prefer mil turrets.

FFP: I want to be able to use reticle holdoffs for elevation and windage at magnifications ranging from ~3x to max. This is especially important for moving targets.


You find the EoTEch Vudu to be daylight bright? I saw one at a store and it seemed less than bright indoors.

[mrozowjj]

I'm still pretty thrilled with the Razor IIE 1-6. It's my favorite LPVO so far.

I remain happy with my Meopta ZD 1-4 for what I paid for it, but it's definitely a little outdated v. the Razor.

If it wasn't so heavy I'd happily toss the Razor 1-6 on everything. At what 22-23 oz it's kind of heavy for my taste.

[KEW8338]

Check. Reticles are a very personal thing.

My PM2 5-25 MSR is the best scope I have owned, or used.

On that one you linked:

Looks like you only have usable mils/windage down to 6 mils

There is no semi circle or horshoe around center dot

Those lines/dots do not look very precise and would obscure stuff at range

Ranging brackets built in at the bottom of the reticle, which to me, is not preferred and leads to wearing out your eye balls

The H27D (Mk8), ATACR 1-8 and Vortex 1-10 all have very similar reticle designs for a reason.

Schmidt has had some parallax issues that usually manifest themselves at longer ranges.

[Clusterfrack]

You find the EoTEch Vudu to be daylight bright? I saw one at a store and it seemed less than bright indoors.

I do not own one. However, a firearms trainer buddy has two, and another friend has two more. My experience with them is that the illumination is very bright. Not quite as bright as a Razor or Mk.6 on full power, but very usable in bright light.

[Clusterfrack]

I don't own one of these $5k scopes and am not likely to. So I don't want to get into a fruitless debate about it. I am impressed by the design, from what little I can discern from an internet review. In particular, putting the dot on the SFP, while keeping the reticle on the FFP, is a great idea.

However, for a carbine optic, I prefer a heavier reticle than I use on my precision rifles. There is not enough "range" to worry about obscuring stuff with typical carbine targets.

I like the Vortex 1-10 reticle a lot, from what I can see in the pictures.

I am not aware of parallax issues with S&B scopes. My PM2 does not have that problem. Do you have a link?




On that one you linked:

Looks like you only have usable mils/windage down to 6 mils

There is no semi circle or horshoe around center dot

Those lines/dots do not look very precise and would obscure stuff at range

Ranging brackets built in at the bottom of the reticle, which to me, is not preferred and leads to wearing out your eye balls

The H27D (Mk8), ATACR 1-8 and Vortex 1-10 all have very similar reticle designs for a reason.

Schmidt has had some parallax issues that usually manifest themselves at longer ranges.

[Tokarev]

Poking around on various websites such as scopelist, Midway and Euro optic over the weekend. I see the new Mark 3HD series is starting to ship. Scope List had the 4-12 illuminated reticle earlier but now they are out of stock. No one appears to the the illuminated 1.5-4 scopes yet but they do have the non-illuminated version.

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[mrozowjj]

I like the Vortex 1-10 reticle a lot, from what I can see in the pictures.



If you have used a Nightforce NX8 1-8 and you like that you will like the Vortex 1-10. It's almost exactly the same except the dot and segmented circle are a bit more translucent. I tried one but stuck with the NX8 because it's lighter and shorter than the Vortex and I don't need that extra 2x in the 8-10x range.

I ordered a Delta Stryker 1-6x this weekend. Decided to give it a try based off some of the things people at Sniper Hide and AR15.com were saying about it. It's being compared favorably to the Steiner 1-4x quality glass and brightness only it's a 1-6x so with the recent price increase in the Steiner I thought I'd try the Stryker.

[Tokarev]

Here's a bit of dated into on the Vortex Viper 1-6

https://defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15-m4-m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-cotactical-ar-15-m4-m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part/

Apologies if it has already been linked.

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[Tokarev]

A bit over a year ago but still pertinent:

https://youtu.be/K_Pu7TrOfrQ

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[Default.mp3]

Someone wrote a love letter to the Elcan SpecterDR: https://www.breachbangclear.com/elcan-specterdr-analysis/

I'm personally not convinced of the viability of the SpecterDR still, simply due to the preexisting concerns about durability and reliability. Still too many negative stories about them from reliable sources. That being said, I have agreed with the theory behind Woods' article for the most part, though I'm also just a random civilian, so my concurrence doesn't really mean shit.

[Clusterfrack]

Someone wrote a love letter to the Elcan SpecterDR: https://www.breachbangclear.com/elcan-specterdr-analysis/

I'm personally not convinced of the viability of the SpecterDR still, simply due to the preexisting concerns about durability and reliability. Still too many negative stories about them from reliable sources. That being said, I have agreed with the theory behind Woods' article for the most part, though I'm also just a random civilian, so my concurrence doesn't really mean shit.

I have used mine quite hard, including falling on rocks on the optic. As I said earlier, if I had to get rid of all of my optics and keep just one, it would be my Elcan Specter DR.

[Tokarev]

Someone wrote a love letter to the Elcan SpecterDR: https://www.breachbangclear.com/elcan-specterdr-analysis/

I'm personally not convinced of the viability of the SpecterDR still, simply due to the preexisting concerns about durability and reliability. Still too many negative stories about them from reliable sources. That being said, I have agreed with the theory behind Woods' article for the most part, though I'm also just a random civilian, so my concurrence doesn't really mean shit.One man's trash is another man's treasure.

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[Wake27]

I think I remember seeing that they went through an update at one point. Earlier versions couldn't maintain zero while switching between 1x and 4x so maybe some durability concerns were addressed as well.

[Unobtanium]

I think I remember seeing that they went through an update at one point. Earlier versions couldn't maintain zero while switching between 1x and 4x so maybe some durability concerns were addressed as well.



Seeking more data. Tagged for interest.

[ldunnmobile]

If you have used a Nightforce NX8 1-8 and you like that you will like the Vortex 1-10. It's almost exactly the same except the dot and segmented circle are a bit more translucent. I tried one but stuck with the NX8 because it's lighter and shorter than the Vortex and I don't need that extra 2x in the 8-10x range.

I ordered a Delta Stryker 1-6x this weekend. Decided to give it a try based off some of the things people at Sniper Hide and AR15.com were saying about it. It's being compared favorably to the Steiner 1-4x quality glass and brightness only it's a 1-6x so with the recent price increase in the Steiner I thought I'd try the Stryker.

I really want to know your thoughts on the Stryker.

[mrozowjj]

I really want to know your thoughts on the Stryker.

Fedex tried very very hard to lose the scope on me so it got delivered 3 days later than it should have been so I just got it yesterday. I bought it for a rifle I don't own yet so I haven't had a chance to actually shoot with it on a gun yet.

I am far from an expert but I'll do my best. Glass quality is really good; edge to edge looks good to me. There is no color shift that I can see and very little if any noticeable issues around the edge. If you were being very picky there is a very thin halo around the edge but the scope has to be in motion to really notice it. I am not the most critical on this aspect so I will admit I might be wrong. I don't have a Steiner here to compare it against but from memory it is on par with that in terms of glass quality. Eyebox is pretty good, there is a nice range even at 6x from where my head can still use the reticle.

Illumination is very bright but not like nuclear bright; could just be a battery but I think it would be useable in most daylight situations. (Arizona high noon mid summer might be an issue) Looking out my window at night it looks pretty good in low light, lets enough light in to use at night in a city anyway.

Reticle is weird it's a hash line then a dot then a hash etc. I didn't realize it had dots when I bought it. It's not a problem but it wasn't obvous to me before purchusing. It's not a Christmas tree but it has more marks lines and dots than you could ever use on a 5.56 rifle; I mean look at the bullet drop marks from the Strelok pic I attached it will let you reach out to 800 yards with the dots and hash lines.

It's good that the reticle is usable without fiddling with the the turrents because thes turrets have a bit of wobble to them which is kind of a bummer; they click into place when adjusting but there is some wiggle with them when stationary. I guess being capped I'll just set them and never touch it again and use the reticle for kentuchy windage. Zoom adjust lever is easy to turn and it comes with a little arm to make it easier. Zoom throw is 180 degrees from the 9 to 3 o'clock positions on a clock.

TLDR; This is for me the Steiner PX4 1-4 "killer." The Striker is the same size, same weight, same quality glass an even more usable reticle with a max 6x instead of a 4x but because Steiner raised the prices the Delta can be had at close to the same price (Dealer I got it from will cut you a good deal if you email) I don't see a point the PX4 anymore.

Delta Striker 1-6 reticle
71185

Steiner 1-4 reticle (I have no idea why Strelok shows the target as being larged in the 4x Steiner instead of the 6 Delta - I also have no idea what those grey numbers are... I don't know how to use Strelok very well)

71186

[ldunnmobile]

Thanks that’s good info. I had a P4xi too.

The reticle is Mil based and I really like that as it makes it really easy for me to know my wind holds. And shooting movers.

[Tokarev]

Delta Striker 1-6 reticle
71185


I have the Strelok app but don't seem to have the Delta reticle as an option. Which version of the app do you have?

Also which dealer did you buy the scope from?

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[rob_s]

I ordered a Delta Stryker 1-6x this weekend. Decided to give it a try based off some of the things people at Sniper Hide and AR15.com were saying about it. It's being compared favorably to the Steiner 1-4x quality glass and brightness only it's a 1-6x so with the recent price increase in the Steiner I thought I'd try the Stryker.



TLDR; This is for me the Steiner PX4 1-4 "killer." The Striker is the same size, same weight, same quality glass an even more usable reticle with a max 6x instead of a 4x but because Steiner raised the prices the Delta can be had at close to the same price (Dealer I got it from will cut you a good deal if you email) I don't see a point the PX4 anymore.



Also which dealer did you buy the scope from?

Wondering same thing. Googling does t seem to turn up much in the way of dealers and pricing.

[Nephrology]

I know Ilya Koshkin really likes the Delta Stryker and think's its the best LPVO for <$1k. I considered buying one but don't really have any need for more scopes.

[mrozowjj]

I have the Strelok app but don't seem to have the Delta reticle as an option. Which version of the app do you have?

Also which dealer did you buy the scope from?

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It's the Android version, I have auto update on so it's whatever the latest is. It's listed as "DSMR, Stryker HD 1-6x24, Delta"

71237




Wondering same thing. Googling does t seem to turn up much in the way of dealers and pricing.


Guys at Sniper Hide told me to order from here and email them and that's what I did.
http://darnfineshot.com/deopsthd130t.html

[Tokarev]

It's the Android version, I have auto update on so it's whatever the latest is.

Got it though the play store then? I bought the Pro version through Galaxy store and have the latest (April) version available through that resource.

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[ldunnmobile]

Got it though the play store then? I bought the Pro version through Galaxy store and have the latest (April) version available through that resource.

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It’s on my Apple version.

[Tokarev]

It’s on my Apple version.The latest version appears to be 5.4 but only 5.3.7 appears through Galaxy.

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[mrozowjj]

Got it though the play store then? I bought the Pro version through Galaxy store and have the latest (April) version available through that resource.

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Yeah the Play Store. It says I have Strelok Pro 5.9.9 I would avoid buying anything from the Samsung store because then if you ever go with a non-samsung phone you're boned.

[pastaslinger]

For those of you with higher end LPVO's, do you feel like something such as a Razor Gen IIe, Sig tango 6t, or even Leupold MK6 grants you any abilities than you would have with more budget minded scopes, especially the Phillipines made ones, like the Vortex PST II or the Burris XTR II?

[Wake27]

For those of you with higher end LPVO's, do you feel like something such as a Razor Gen IIe, Sig tango 6t, or even Leupold MK6 grants you any abilities than you would have with more budget minded scopes, especially the Phillipines made ones, like the Vortex PST II or the Burris XTR II?

Razor Gen II-E to Viper Gen II not really. Some benefits such as slightly lighter, likely more durable, and a bit better glass, but not in the realm of granting new abilities. Razor Gen III, absolutely. But I assume you weren't going that far with the question.

[tlong17]

I actually prefer the Viper over the Razor. Durability is the only thing I haven’t tested since I’m not jumping out of airplanes, isolating in the sand dunes, or doing over the beach maneuvers.

[Clusterfrack]

I had one of my most satisfying match placements using my Mk. 6. It was a sniper/carbine team match called the Findlay Cup. It included multiple and simultaneous moving targets, crawling through tunnels, shooting from a moving high lift crane at night, and more. The match required a true jack of all trades optic that could deal with CQB to movers at 600yds in strong wind. I don’t know if the scope gave me special powers, but I sure was happy with it.

[pastaslinger]

I had one of my most satisfying match placements using my Mk. 6. It was a sniper/carbine team match called the Findlay Cup. It included multiple and simultaneous moving targets, crawling through tunnels, shooting from a moving high lift crane at night, and more. The match required a true jack of all trades optic that could deal with CQB to movers at 600yds in strong wind. I don’t know if the scope gave me special powers, but I sure was happy with it.

With the idea of a 0-600m carbine in mind, I've switched to mid power optics like 3-9x and 2.5-10x with an offset dot. Problem is, I now have a leftover couple of LPVOs that I like but have less use for. Hence wondering if I should decrease the number and increase the quality.

[Tokarev]

I actually prefer the Viper over the Razor.

And why is this?



Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[HCM]

For those of you with higher end LPVO's, do you feel like something such as a Razor Gen IIe, Sig tango 6t, or even Leupold MK6 grants you any abilities than you would have with more budget minded scopes, especially the Phillipines made ones, like the Vortex PST II or the Burris XTR II?

New abilities ? No. But is the Razor worth it over the PST II for duty type use ? Yes.

Durability, lighter weight with the E model and the locking rheostat to avoid bumping your settings when "wearing" the rifle.

[RancidSumo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf488YLHgG4

Skip to 10:45 for the money shot.

[GyroF-16]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf488YLHgG4

Skip to 10:45 for the money shot.

Ouch!

[Tokarev]

I stole this off another forum. Seemed applicable to the discussion here:





Ive been running a P4Xi on my duty rifle since mid 2017 ( maybe a little earlier, I cant remember exactly when). I bought it in a bundle sale with a Midwest Industries mount for 495 dollars. I have had zero issues with it in that time. We do 4 mandatory training days a year with the rifles totaling about a 1000 rounds per year. It's been through a couple shoot houses and through a couple force on force days using simmunitions. Range days include a lot of barrier work and moving in and around vehicles. It's ridden in the back of my patrol Tahoe the whole time and was back there when a guy fell asleep at the wheel and rear ended me at a red light going 40 mph. It's been deployed many many times at work when searching for suspects or on a barricaded situation. Basically, it definitely hasnt been babied and it's handled an active life without issues. between work training days and my own training days with the rifle, the optic has about 6000 rounds under it.

I have found the center dot to be daylight bright even during the summers here in Phoenix. The glass is good for an optic in it's price range. I was able to discern that a barricaded guy was waiving his cell phone around like a gun on one scene which probably saved him from going suicide by cop. I got in a gunfight in 2018 with the rifle. As I was aiming at the guy in the middle of the road about 60 yards from me I noticed through the Steiner that there was a family loading their kids into their car about 100 yards directly behind suspect, in the line of fire. I did not notice them with my naked eye and I probably wouldn't have seen them with a red dot. I was able to move and get a safer shooting lane and finish the fight. That's the day that really cemented my opinion that a good LPVO is a superior general purpose rifle optic. Still fast up close but the magnification gives you better PID and shots at range.

My only real complaint is that I find the view to be distorted at 1x. I find the Razor 1-6 and the PST Gen 2 1-6 to have a better 1x. Those scopes act more like a red dot to me. Like Im looking though them like an Aimpoint or EOTech, while I feel like Im still looking into the Steiner. I dont know if that makes sense.

Here is a pic of the day Det Sog and I went to the range and I took my duty rifle. Finding 10 inch plates at 500+ yards was no problem with the P4Xi. Hitting them was a bit harder. HAHA. Det Sog had an ACOG on his Colt 6940 which was a good comparison to the Steiner. The ACOG had better glass but not enough to make a difference for what we were doing.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51171193435_dafc71002d_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kXPK2M)IMG955636 (https://flic.kr/p/2kXPK2M) by chase (https://www.flickr.com/photos/157376915@N07/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51171200210_005b04ebb6_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kXPM3A)20190921_123215 (https://flic.kr/p/2kXPM3A) by chase (https://www.flickr.com/photos/157376915@N07/), on Flickr



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[tlong17]

And why is this?



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Subjectively, the eye relief, field of view and light quality are the same. The razor’s illumination flares into the etched reticle at higher settings whereas the Viper doesn’t. The 1x appears to be a truer 1x on the Viper than on the Razor. The magnification adjustment is not as stiff.

The razor is marginally lighter and has a thinner outline. I don’t notice either of these when shooting/carrying the rifle.

The Razor could be more durable.

All of that is without consideration of cost. Which the Viper is half as expensive as the 1-6 Razor.

The 1-10 Razor obviously has more magnification and could win out on that if that is something you need.

I am approaching this through my own experiences with the Razor 1-6 and Viper 1-6 on a flat 0-500 yd range in mostly good conditions.

[David S.]

Vortex PST II 1-6 (https://www.scopelist.com/Vortex-Viper-PST-Gen-II-1-6x24-VMR-2-MRAD-Like-New-Demo-Scope-PST-1607.aspx). $499 Like new demo. (I don't know anything about this retailer.)

[Tokarev]

Vortex PST II 1-6 (https://www.scopelist.com/Vortex-Viper-PST-Gen-II-1-6x24-VMR-2-MRAD-Like-New-Demo-Scope-PST-1607.aspx). $499 Like new demo. (I don't know anything about this retailer.)Scopelist.com is good to go. I've bought from them before.

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[Tokarev]

Vortex PST II 1-6 (https://www.scopelist.com/Vortex-Viper-PST-Gen-II-1-6x24-VMR-2-MRAD-Like-New-Demo-Scope-PST-1607.aspx). $499 Like new demo. (I don't know anything about this retailer.)Another source for demo Vipers:

https://www.eurooptic.com/Vortex-Viper-PST-Gen-II-1-6x24-VMR-2-MRAD-Like-New-Demo-Scope-PST-1607.aspx

No personal experience with this company.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[dontshakepandas]

Another source for demo Vipers:

https://www.eurooptic.com/Vortex-Viper-PST-Gen-II-1-6x24-VMR-2-MRAD-Like-New-Demo-Scope-PST-1607.aspx

No personal experience with this company.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

EuroOptic is good to go. I've made several purchases from them.

[Nephrology]

EuroOptic is good to go. I've made several purchases from them.

Same. I recently looked at my credit card statement to see how much money I'd given them over the last 12 months and uh, let's just say that ignorance is bliss

[Wake27]

Another source for demo Vipers:

https://www.eurooptic.com/Vortex-Viper-PST-Gen-II-1-6x24-VMR-2-MRAD-Like-New-Demo-Scope-PST-1607.aspx

No personal experience with this company.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Bought this exact scope a few months ago, they could've sold it as new and I would have never known.

[mrozowjj]

I stole this off another forum. Seemed applicable to the discussion here:





Ive been running a P4Xi on my duty rifle since mid 2017 ( maybe a little earlier, I cant remember exactly when). I bought it in a bundle sale with a Midwest Industries mount for 495 dollars. I have had zero issues with it in that time. We do 4 mandatory training days a year with the rifles totaling about a 1000 rounds per year. It's been through a couple shoot houses and through a couple force on force days using simmunitions. Range days include a lot of barrier work and moving in and around vehicles. It's ridden in the back of my patrol Tahoe the whole time and was back there when a guy fell asleep at the wheel and rear ended me at a red light going 40 mph. It's been deployed many many times at work when searching for suspects or on a barricaded situation. Basically, it definitely hasnt been babied and it's handled an active life without issues. between work training days and my own training days with the rifle, the optic has about 6000 rounds under it.

I have found the center dot to be daylight bright even during the summers here in Phoenix. The glass is good for an optic in it's price range. I was able to discern that a barricaded guy was waiving his cell phone around like a gun on one scene which probably saved him from going suicide by cop. I got in a gunfight in 2018 with the rifle. As I was aiming at the guy in the middle of the road about 60 yards from me I noticed through the Steiner that there was a family loading their kids into their car about 100 yards directly behind suspect, in the line of fire. I did not notice them with my naked eye and I probably wouldn't have seen them with a red dot. I was able to move and get a safer shooting lane and finish the fight. That's the day that really cemented my opinion that a good LPVO is a superior general purpose rifle optic. Still fast up close but the magnification gives you better PID and shots at range.

My only real complaint is that I find the view to be distorted at 1x. I find the Razor 1-6 and the PST Gen 2 1-6 to have a better 1x. Those scopes act more like a red dot to me. Like Im looking though them like an Aimpoint or EOTech, while I feel like Im still looking into the Steiner. I dont know if that makes sense.

Here is a pic of the day Det Sog and I went to the range and I took my duty rifle. Finding 10 inch plates at 500+ yards was no problem with the P4Xi. Hitting them was a bit harder. HAHA. Det Sog had an ACOG on his Colt 6940 which was a good comparison to the Steiner. The ACOG had better glass but not enough to make a difference for what we were doing.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51171193435_dafc71002d_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kXPK2M)IMG955636 (https://flic.kr/p/2kXPK2M) by chase (https://www.flickr.com/photos/157376915@N07/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51171200210_005b04ebb6_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kXPM3A)20190921_123215 (https://flic.kr/p/2kXPM3A) by chase (https://www.flickr.com/photos/157376915@N07/), on Flickr



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Consdering how much time you have on the Steiner I would be very curious to see what you think of the Delta Stryker 1-6. I think odds are you would like it but it's also an unknown in terms of durability at the moment.

Also I always thought Scpoelist and Europtic were the same company. I thought they both operated out of the same city in PA.

[Tokarev]

Consdering how much time you have on the Steiner...

Please note that info is taken from another website (m4carbine.net) and isn't my personal experience.

[mrozowjj]

Well I missed that the first read through.

[Tokarev]

Phoenix PD's approved optics list. This is apparently not 100% up to date as they also allow the Trijicon Credo:

Leupold Mk4 1.5-4
US Optics SVS 1-6
VCOG 1-6
Leupold VX-6HD 1-6
Steiner P4Xi
PST Gen2 1-6
Leupold Mk6 1-6

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[David S.]

I took Sentinel Concepts Carbine Deployment class a couple weeks ago with a Vortex Viper PST II 1-6 mounted on an AR-15.

Warranty experience: Over a year or so of ownership, I noticed that the scope's battery was discharging quickly. I didn't think much of it, because I don't shoot it much and it's not the primary home defense gun. During the class, I noticed dot flicker and intermittent illumination. I sent it back to Vortex for their warranty repair and had it back in my hands within ten days. The notes indicate they replaced a PCB, chip, battery and the battery cap (which was mangled from using wrong tool to open). Cleaned and re centered. Good as new.

----------

LPVO technique. A sideline discussion that I heard between Fisher and a couple of the students. He questioned the one of the normal reasons for installing an off-set sighting system, which is the user might get stuck with a high magnification level and close target, and it would be faster to transition to off set backups than to change the magnification. Steve indicated that the dot/reticle is still usable if it's buried in scope shadow, based on the same principle as shooting a handgun with an occluded PMO. When both eyes open, the dot will superimpose on the target and you're good to go.

Caveat: This was my first formal carbine class and I was saturated by the time this conversation occurred. I was also busy flighting with my own scope issues at the time so I didn't get a chance to test or clarity the claim. I though I'd throw it out there and see if there's any merit.

[littlejerry]

I took Sentinel Concepts Carbine Deployment class a couple weeks ago with a Vortex Viper PST II 1-6 mounted on an AR-15.

Warranty experience: Over a year or so of ownership, I noticed that the scope's battery was discharging quickly. I didn't think much of it, because I don't shoot it much and it's not the primary home defense gun. During the class, I noticed dot flicker and intermittent illumination. I sent it back to Vortex for their warranty repair and had it back in my hands within ten days. The notes indicate they replaced a PCB, chip, battery and the battery cap (which was mangled from using wrong tool to open). Cleaned and re centered. Good as new.

----------

LPVO technique. A sideline discussion that I heard between Fisher and a couple of the students. He questioned the one of the normal reasons for installing an off-set sighting system, which is the user might get stuck with a high magnification level and close target, and it would be faster to transition to off set backups than to change the magnification. Steve indicated that the dot/reticle is still usable if it's buried in scope shadow, based on the same principle as shooting a handgun with an occluded PMO. When both eyes open, the dot will superimpose on the target and you're good to go.

Caveat: This was my first formal carbine class and I was saturated by the time this conversation occurred. I was also busy flighting with my own scope issues at the time so I didn't get a chance to test or clarity the claim. I though I'd throw it out there and see if there's any merit.

This works if:
1) You have illumination
2) It's on

A ton of LPVOs don't have daylight bright or even visible illumination, so most people don't bother turning it on during the day.

[David S.]

This works if:
1) You have illumination
2) It's on

A ton of LPVOs don't have daylight bright or even visible illumination, so most people don't bother turning it on during the day.

Don't be poor. ;) (I kid, I kid)

[littlejerry]

Don't be poor. ;) (I kid, I kid)

Says the guy who sent his PST back to Vortex for broken illumination. ;)

[David S.]

Says the guy who sent his PST back to Vortex for broken illumination. ;)

ooof. ;)

[rob_s]

LPVO technique. A sideline discussion that I heard between Fisher and a couple of the students. He questioned the one of the normal reasons for installing an off-set sighting system, which is the user might get stuck with a high magnification level and close target, and it would be faster to transition to off set backups than to change the magnification. Steve indicated that the dot/reticle is still usable if it's buried in scope shadow, based on the same principle as shooting a handgun with an occluded PMO. When both eyes open, the dot will superimpose on the target and you're good to go.

In the event that a target presents itself so damn close as to be an immediate threat but you find yourself on sniper magnification, there are LOTS of ways of dealing with the threat.

which, by the way, always reminds me of this scene


https://www.starwars.com/video/tusken-raider-attack

[Tokarev]

In stock at Scope List:

https://www.scopelist.com/Leupold-Mark-3HD-15-4x20-30mm-Illum-FireDot-BDC-Riflescope-180663.aspx

I'm still impressed by the listed weight. If that's not a typo....

[Guerrero]

In stock at Scope List:

https://www.scopelist.com/Leupold-Mark-3HD-15-4x20-30mm-Illum-FireDot-BDC-Riflescope-180663.aspx

I'm still impressed by the listed weight. If that's not a typo....

Leupold website lists the same weight. Could be a "copy 'n' paste" error, but the more places it shows up, the less likely that is.

[rob_s]

In stock at Scope List:

https://www.scopelist.com/Leupold-Mark-3HD-15-4x20-30mm-Illum-FireDot-BDC-Riflescope-180663.aspx

I'm still impressed by the listed weight. If that's not a typo....


Leupold website lists the same weight. Could be a "copy 'n' paste" error, but the more places it shows up, the less likely that is.

hell that's only what, 2.5 more oz than a Comp C3?
https://www.aimpoint.com/products/red-dot-sights/compc3-2-moa-red-dot-reflex-sight

[Tokarev]

hell that's only what, 2.5 more oz than a Comp C3?
https://www.aimpoint.com/products/red-dot-sights/compc3-2-moa-red-dot-reflex-sightYep. Add another 7-8 ounces for a decent mount and it is still right at a pound.

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[mrozowjj]

In stock at Scope List:

https://www.scopelist.com/Leupold-Mark-3HD-15-4x20-30mm-Illum-FireDot-BDC-Riflescope-180663.aspx

I'm still impressed by the listed weight. If that's not a typo....

Leuopold has figured out something other scope companies haven't so I would think that weight is accurate. That said I almost guarantee that will not be daylight bright.

While I am not super fond of the 1.5x at the low end at that weight I don't know that I might that much. It's the same weight as most magnifiers you'd use with a red dot. Add in a mount and you're at the same weight as a red dot + magnifier only you have a BDC and a 4x vs 3x top end.

[Guerrero]

In stock at Scope List:

https://www.scopelist.com/Leupold-Mark-3HD-15-4x20-30mm-Illum-FireDot-BDC-Riflescope-180663.aspx

I'm still impressed by the listed weight. If that's not a typo....

If anyone's serious about it, Optics Planet has it for the same price, plus 10% off until 5/19 and free shipping.

https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/180663-leupold-mark-3hd-1-5-4x20mm-riflescope.html

[TWR]

The only experience I've had with Leupold's Firedot was on my VX6 1-6 and it was definately daylight/Aimpoint bright. Looking back, if it had a different reticle in it other than the thick duplex, it would probably be my favorite scope.

[frank]

Is there any way, as non LE or MIL, to get the NX8 with capped elevation? (599 model I think).

[Tokarev]

Is there any way, as non LE or MIL, to get the NX8 with capped elevation? (599 model I think).They actually make a capped turret variant? I called a couple months ago to enquire about such a model. The customer service guy told me it didn't exist.



Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[rob_s]

Yep. Add another 7-8 ounces for a decent mount and it is still right at a pound.

I’ve got one of these guys in a bin in my workshop
https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/ultralight-30mm-extended-scope-mount-fde

3.3 oz.

Probably not “hard use” but then, neither am I.

[Tokarev]

I’ve got one of these guys in a bin in my workshop
https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/ultralight-30mm-extended-scope-mount-fde

3.3 oz.

Probably not “hard use” but then, neither am I.There you go. That's about 13 ounces for the whole package and is lighter than many of the competing scopes sans mount.

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[Tokarev]

They actually make a capped turret variant? I called a couple months ago to enquire about such a model. The customer service guy told me it didn't exist.



Sent from my SM-G970U using TapatalkEmailed NFO Mil/LE sales. C599 is capped and MRAD. C601 is capped and MOA.

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[HCM]

Is there any way, as non LE or MIL, to get the NX8 with capped elevation? (599 model I think).

seconady market. They pop up on the ARFCOM EE occasionally.

[pastaslinger]

The only experience I've had with Leupold's Firedot was on my VX6 1-6 and it was definately daylight/Aimpoint bright. Looking back, if it had a different reticle in it other than the thick duplex, it would probably be my favorite scope.

Midwayusa has the 3gun BDC version on sale for $999

[Phaedrus]

I see that the SwampFox Arrowhead LPVO (https://warisboring.com/scar-fox-a-look-into-the-battle-tested-swampfox-arrowhead-lpvo/) is even getting mention in the press! All the reviews I have found are glowing.

[HCM]

I see that the SwampFox Arrowhead LPVO (https://warisboring.com/scar-fox-a-look-into-the-battle-tested-swampfox-arrowhead-lpvo/) is even getting mention in the press! All the reviews I have found are glowing.

I wouldn't call that "The Press" more like a product placement. Not saying the Arrowhead is good or bad, but one or two cool guys asking for free T&E scopes to take on an Afghan deployment doesn't equal "combat proven.

Not a "cool guy," but my organization has always purchased items we want to T&E.


https://youtu.be/9vQaVIoEjOM

[Phaedrus]

I'm not saying it's a "review", just that for WarIsBoring to even mention a product at all is unusual. They cover international military affairs but almost never discuss hardware. I just that it was interesting to see a scope mentioned there. Reviews abound elsewhere.

[Tokarev]

Midwayusa has the 3gun BDC version on sale for $999I really like the CMR2 reticle and have found the circle-dot to be quick and useful at both ends of the magnification spectrum.

With that said, the brightness is lacking. It may have worked better had Leupold gone with a fiber optic illuminated dot and left the rest of the reticle non illuminated.

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[TWR]

Midwayusa has the 3gun BDC version on sale for $999

I’m not seeing it. Saw the VX6 HD blemished for $1192 and the VX5 HD for $999 which is possibly the same or better than what I had but for that money I’ll stick with Trijicon. Until Leupold sorts itself out and has someone there that can fix scopes instead of just swapping them out for something close, I’m gonna pass.

I had one of the first VX6 1-6 with Firedot and CDS. I liked everything about it except the thicker duplex was hard to shoot groups with but in all fairness, I never missed anything because of it. The CDS tracked good but the zero stop was an afterthought. The dot was daylight bright, generous eyebox, good FOV and glass was clear. I just never fully trusted it after having the dot go off and trouble with other Leupold scopes.

Once I got the Trijicon 1-4 Accupower for almost half the cost and could shoot it better, trusted it more, I bought another one even though the dot was only daylight visible. It’s hard to jump back on the Leupold ship.

[Tokarev]

Alright so here's my initial thoughts on the Viper PST Gen II that I just picked up.

Fairly heavy. The scope in the Vortex/ADM Recon mount is right at two pounds.

Daylight bright. I'd equate the brightness to Setting 9 on an Aimpoint PRO.

Quality. The finish is overly shiny and kind of reminds me of the cheap Chinese scopes usually sold by gunshow vendors. The illumination knob seems a little wobbly but settings seem fairly crisp and positive. Magnification ring moves clean and smooth but is stiff. Same for the windage and elevation adjustments. Definitely needs a throw lever.

Overall probably a very solid option. Maybe the only "serious" options at this price. If Vortex made a Viper 1-10 at $1100-ish I think they'd sell by the truckload.



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[Tokarev]

Mounted https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210521/b567a0a51605d18d62d22af64b0b72f6.jpg

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[Nephrology]

Overall probably a very solid option. Maybe the only "serious" options at this price. If Vortex made a Viper 1-10 at $1100-ish I think they'd sell by the truckload.



Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

I think the Optika 6 1-6 is of bettter build quality and better glass quality than the PST II 1-6. However not daylight bright. I think it would be a good serious option if daylight bright was not necessary for end user purposes. Could also compensate with offset MRDS.

[Guerrero]

Fairly heavy. The scope in the Vortex/ADM Recon mount is right at two pounds.


https://i1.wp.com/backtothegaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Back-to-the-Future-of-Gaming.jpg

[Tokarev]

I think the Optika 6 1-6 is of bettter build quality and better glass quality than the PST II 1-6. However not daylight bright. I think it would be a good serious option if daylight bright was not necessary for end user purposes. Could also compensate with offset MRDS.

I think offset MRDS or BUIS are probably more of a range toy. Everyone needs to have them but rarely use them. Plus I would be hard pressed to train LE to use an offset as a primary sighting system because the reticle is hard to see in scope. Pretty much defeats the purpose of the LPVO in my opinion.

The SIG Tango6 is also a pretty decent scope. More money at a Grand but also not daylight bright although this somewhat depends on the reticle.

Daylight bright is as much a necessity nowadys as true 1x no?

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[JRB]

Tokarev, that's one fine looking workin' gun. I do love a 3-hole prancing pony Colt lower.

[David S.]

Newbie question. The sum total of my experience is a recent 2 day fundamentals class with Sentinel Concepts which I ran with a PST II 1-6 with a dead dot. We weren't under much time pressure for any of the drills, so I may be missing something there.

How important is a daylight bright red dot when you have a full crosshair? Except for when the crosshair was buried in scope shadow, there wasn't any point in the course where I thought a visible dot would have made seeing easier.

[littlejerry]

Newbie question. The sum total of my experience is a recent 2 day fundamentals class with Sentinel Concepts which I ran with a PST II 1-6 with a dead dot. We weren't under much time pressure for any of the drills, so I may be missing something there.

How important is a daylight bright red dot when you have a full crosshair? Except for when the crosshair was buried in scope shadow, there wasn't any point in the course where I thought a visible dot would have made seeing easier.

Low light, low contrast, scope shadow.

Scope shadow is a bigger deal when you are talking about compromised positions, fast transitions, and movement.

[David S.]

Low light, low contrast, scope shadow.

Scope shadow is a bigger deal when you are talking about compromised positions, fast transitions, and movement.

So, on one of the non daylight bright scopes like the Optika mentioned above, is the red dot still too dim to see in the scope shadow on the super sunny day?

I didn't encountered a low contrast situation in the square range training, but it makes a ton of sense.

[Coyote41]

Newbie question. The sum total of my experience is a recent 2 day fundamentals class with Sentinel Concepts which I ran with a PST II 1-6 with a dead dot. We weren't under much time pressure for any of the drills, so I may be missing something there.

How important is a daylight bright red dot when you have a full crosshair? Except for when the crosshair was buried in scope shadow, there wasn't any point in the course where I thought a visible dot would have made seeing easier.

A daylight bright dot helps draw your eye to it. That’s about it. To me it’s a “nice-to-have” but not necessary. What does make something of a difference is if you can see the dot in the shadow. Some scopes you can, some you cannot. I believe this is related to the focal plane, but I am not knowledgeable enough to get into that.


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[Tokarev]

A daylight bright dot helps draw your eye to it. That’s about it. To me it’s a “nice-to-have” but not necessary. What does make something of a difference is if you can see the dot in the shadow. Some scopes you can, some you cannot. I believe this is related to the focal plane, but I am not knowledgeable enough to get into that.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLack of daylight bright can really become an issue with FFP when the crosshair or center aiming point becomes very small at 1x and is easily lost against whatever background. Or so small it is hard to pick up in the first place.





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[Nephrology]

I think offset MRDS or BUIS are probably more of a range toy. Everyone needs to have them but rarely use them.

Offset BUIS I agree; however, after toying with my rifle with offset mrds, i am totally sold, at least for fun purposes. I am tempted to juggle some pistol optics and try out a Holosun 507K on my Arisaka mount. I feel like that could be a really big improvement on overall profiel

[littlejerry]

So, on one of the non daylight bright scopes like the Optika mentioned above, is the red dot still too dim to see in the scope shadow on the super sunny day?

I didn't encountered a low contrast situation in the square range training, but it makes a ton of sense.

I haven't used the Optika 6, but do have a Bushy Elite SMRS Pro 1-6.5. You can definitely see it in scope shadow, but when the shadow goes away so does your red dot.

I think I mentioned elsewhere that myself and a lot of people don't bother turning on a non daylight bright scope in daylight. For the gun games that I play it hasn't been an issue.

If you have a bold SFP reticle with a generous eye box that'll mitigate a lot of issues in the majority of situations. If you have a fine reticle or a FFP setup you'll encounter more situations where illumination is needed for speed.

I have essentially 0 experience with low light use beyond farting around in the house and on our property. In that extremely limited experience I've found "daylight" bright reticles a lot easier to use because they don't wash out on a bright white light.

[Tokarev]

Offset BUIS I agree; however, after toying with my rifle with offset mrds, i am totally sold, at least for fun purposes. I am tempted to juggle some pistol optics and try out a Holosun 507K on my Arisaka mount. I feel like that could be a really big improvement on overall profielWith a something like a 4-12 I think the red dot or BUIS has practical value but still think they defeat the purpose of the LPVO.

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[Nephrology]

With a something like a 4-12 I think the red dot or BUIS has practical value but still think they defeat the purpose of the LPVO.

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Agreed. My goal with this rifle was to get better higher end mag than a traditional LPVO but clock in around the same weight. I'm pretty satisfied with it, but anticipate swapping the HS503c for a 507k in the nearish future

https://i.imgur.com/cFigTW7.jpg

[Tokarev]

Agreed. My goal with this rifle was to get better higher end mag than a traditional LPVO but clock in around the same weight. I'm pretty satisfied with it, but anticipate swapping the HS503c for a 507k in the nearish future

https://i.imgur.com/cFigTW7.jpgI like the idea of combining a higher magnification optic with an offset dot. Something like this should give, in theory, just as much or more versatility than the various 1-6, 8 etc scopes. It would likely be a really good option for ARs in 308, 6.5 C or the new 6 ARC.

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[breakingtime91]

I like the idea of combining a higher magnification optic with an offset dot. Something like this should give, in theory, just as much or more versatility than the various 1-6, 8 etc scopes. It would likely be a really good option for ARs in 308, 6.5 C or the new 6 ARC.

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I really still like acogs.. Doing an offset rds and having the acog all the way back eliminates a lot of the eye box issues. I zero the RDS at 25 and use it out to about 50 yards. Then I use the Acog for everything past that. Acog/RDS combo is super light and will last my life time.

[mrozowjj]

I really still like acogs.. Doing an offset rds and having the acog all the way back eliminates a lot of the eye box issues. I zero the RDS at 25 and use it out to about 50 yards. Then I use the Acog for everything past that. Acog/RDS combo is super light and will last my life time.

I know they aren't the cool option anymore but I really like my ACOG. People complain about the eye relief but if you mount it as far back as you can get it on an AR it's very easy to consistently hit the same spot. I use a piggyback rmr mount which is heigher over bore than I'd like but it works.

I'm always looking for something butter but this setup is practically bomb proof and zero levers to fiddle, brightness levers to control, etc. Just use red dot for anything inside 50 yards, lower head for anything past that.

[Doc_Glock]

Well thanks to this thread I bought the Vortex Viper PST that was on sale at Euro optic.

Aside from then considerable two lb weight addition, the thing is amazing. Very nice 1X and I am excited to see better with the magnification.

I don’t know crap about shooting a magnified rifle so this should be an interesting learning curve.

[gato naranja]

Aside from the considerable two lb weight addition, the thing is amazing. Very nice 1X and I am excited to see better with the magnification.

I don’t know crap about shooting a magnified rifle so this should be an interesting learning curve.

I am one of those people who tends towards buyer's remorse, yet I still dig my PST 1-6X Gen II. The weight of the scope and mount is a bit more than I'd like, but over the years I have hauled around more burdensome optics of less practicality, so I don't kick about it too much.

[Tokarev]

The first "sort of negative" review of the Razor 1-10x24


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjVcVsBzig

[mrozowjj]

The first "sort of negative" review of the Razor 1-10x24


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSjVcVsBzig

I got a Razor 1-10 in the summer and immediately sold it because of the eyebox issues they were talking about in the video. At 1-6x the eyebox is worse than the Razor Gen 2 1-6 and at 7-10 the eyebox was difficult to the point of being unusable to me.

I currently have an NX8 1-8 and I know that scope notorious for having a tighter eyebox but when I got the Razor 1-10 I was expecting it to have a better eyebox closer to the Razor 1-6 but what I found was the eyebox on the Razor 1-10 was about the same if not slightly worse NX8. So I asked myself is it worth the extra money and extra weight for a new scope with an unknown track record (I'm not saying the Razor 1-10 is going to fall apart in a stiff breeze but the NX8 and the Razor 1-6 are known to be rugged and the 1-10 is new so still unknown) with a similar or worse eyebox just to get that 9-10x ranges I don't get with the NX8 and I said "Mmmm nope." and sold the 1-10x

If Vortex put the FFP reticle from their 1-10 in their 1-6x and retained the eyebox, clarity and price of the 1-6 I would probably be willing to deal with that extra weight and might even sell the NX8 for it.

As they say in the video the 1-10 is certainly useful for come applications like a DMR role or a bolt gun but for action style shooting it's not great.

[Tokarev]

I got a Razor 1-10 in the summer and immediately sold it because of the eyebox issues they were talking about in the video. At 1-6x the eyebox is worse than the Razor Gen 2 1-6 and at 7-10 the eyebox was difficult to the point of being unusable to me.

I currently have an NX8 1-8 and I know that scope notorious for having a tighter eyebox but when I got the Razor 1-10 I was expecting it to have a better eyebox closer to the Razor 1-6 but what I found was the eyebox on the Razor 1-10 was about the same if not slightly worse NX8. So I asked myself is it worth the extra money and extra weight for a new scope with an unknown track record (I'm not saying the Razor 1-10 is going to fall apart in a stiff breeze but the NX8 and the Razor 1-6 are known to be rugged and the 1-10 is new so still unknown) with a similar or worse eyebox just to get that 9-10x ranges I don't get with the NX8 and I said "Mmmm nope." and sold the 1-10x

If Vortex put the FFP reticle from their 1-10 in their 1-6x and retained the eyebox, clarity and price of the 1-6 I would probably be willing to deal with that extra weight and might even sell the NX8 for it.

As they say in the video the 1-10 is certainly useful for come applications like a DMR role or a bolt gun but for action style shooting it's not great.How critical was eye relief on something like 6x or 8x? Enough magnification for pretty much anything but still with another few extra power "in reserve" for target ID or more precise work?

Not that it would be easy to pick 6-8x in a match where the shooter is just going to crank the lever until it stops. But then again it might be easy enough to set the throw lever so it is at 90° or something for a repeatable reference point when dialing to something that's not quite full power.

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[mrozowjj]

How critical was eye relief on something like 6x or 8x? Enough magnification for pretty much anything but still with another few extra power "in reserve" for target ID or more precise work?

Not that it would be easy to pick 6-8x in a match where the shooter is just going to crank the lever until it stops. But then again it might be easy enough to set the throw lever so it is at 90° or something for a repeatable reference point when dialing to something that's not quite full power.

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If you have or have used an NX8 the 6x or 8x was close to that, not unusable but not easy. The 9x to 10x was difficult to the point of not being worth the effort.

You could probably find a way to only use the 6 or 8x on it but as I said I started asking myself, why train around it when it cost more and is heavier than what I already have where I don't need to do that?

If you need that 9x or 10x because you are using it on a gun that can reach out to 1000 yards like 6.5 creedmore it's the best option available. If you are shooting 5.56 out of a 16 in barrel at a max of 500 yards it's a trade off of extra cost, extra weight, and extra training to get that extra magnification range you aren't likely to ever need; stick with their Razor Gen 2 1-6 or if you care about weight Delta Stryker 1-6, Nightforce NX8 1-8, Trijicon Credo HX 1-6, etc.

That said as they point out in the video if you want that extra mag because you are a DMR roles, in military, or a hunter and you need it for target identification it might be just what you need. I don't do any of those things so for me it was a waste.

I guess my point is it's not a bad scope at all but it's clearly meant for a role different than their Gen2 1-6 and it doesn't replace their Gen 2 1-6 the way everyone was hoping it would and every time I see a youtube review where they don't mention that makes me question their honesty. (I.E. they are praising it for the clicks.) That InRange review is the most honest and accurate version I've seen of that scope.

[jbrimlow]

If you need that 9x or 10x because you are using it on a gun that can reach out to 1000 yards like 6.5 creedmore it's the best option available. If you are shooting 5.56 out of a 16 in barrel at a max of 500 yards it's a trade off of extra cost, extra weight, and extra training to get that extra magnification range you aren't likely to ever need; stick with their Razor Gen 2 1-6 or if you care about weight Delta Stryker 1-6, Nightforce NX8 1-8, Trijicon Credo HX 1-6, etc.

...

I guess my point is it's not a bad scope at all but it's clearly meant for a role different than their Gen2 1-6 and it doesn't replace their Gen 2 1-6 the way everyone was hoping it would...

Thanks a bunch for this. I adore my Gen2E 1-6, and you've just saved me the trouble of buying the 1-10x, getting really mad at it, and then trying to flip it.

[mrozowjj]

Thanks a bunch for this. I adore my Gen2E 1-6, and you've just saved me the trouble of buying the 1-10x, getting really mad at it, and then trying to flip it.

Happy to help but I am not an expert so please don't take it as gospel. If you can find a way to get behind one try it out maybe it will work for you. I just know everyone seems to love it online and I can't help but think either maybe I got a lemon or they aren't being honest with the audience or with themselves about what roles it is good for; most seem to think it invalidates the Gen 2 1-6 but I just can't see that being the case.

[Tokarev]

Thanks a bunch for this. I adore my Gen2E 1-6, and you've just saved me the trouble of buying the 1-10x, getting really mad at it, and then trying to flip it.

Might still be worth a purchase and a try if you can find one. A few places have the MOA version in stock. Vortex LE sales told me recently that the MRAD version is backordered and won't be in stock again until probably late 2021 or even early 2022.

Given ongoing availability issues across industry you could probably easily recoup your money if you didn't like it.


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[mrozowjj]

Might still be worth a purchase and a try if you can find one. A few places have the MOA version in stock. Vortex LE sales told me recently that the MRAD version is backordered and won't be in stock again until probably late 2021 or even early 2022.

Given ongoing availability issues across industry you could probably easily recoup your money if you didn't like it.


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The way I got the one I tried was through Liberty Optics. They sell them at a good price and they have a 90 back order on MRAD and a 30 day an MOA. I went MRAD waited and 3 months later I got the shipping notice. I had the thing a few days didn't like it sold it on ar15.com so quick that I probably should have asked for more than I did; some people want it now and are unwilling to wait on it so they scour the forums looking for it. You can absolutely sell it for what you paid for it and you could probably sell it for a $200-300 profit if you really don't like it it's not the end of the world.

[jbrimlow]

The way I got the one I tried was through Liberty Optics. They sell them at a good price and they have a 90 back order on MRAD and a 30 day an MOA. I went MRAD waited and 3 months later I got the shipping notice. I had the thing a few days didn't like it sold it on ar15.com so quick that I probably should have asked for more than I did; some people want it now and are unwilling to wait on it so they scour the forums looking for it. You can absolutely sell it for what you paid for it and you could probably sell it for a $200-300 profit if you really don't like it it's not the end of the world.

That's a fair point. But the 1-6 has a great eyebox, and that's one of my favorite things about it. Generally, eyebox isn't something reviewers talk about though.

For my purposes, namely run and gun with a race build 5.56mm, giant eyebox and super bright dot are really important for me. 6x is almost certainly enough for any reasonable practical shooting exercise. Maybe out in the southwest I'd have other ideas, but I'm not there.

[mrozowjj]

That's a fair point. But the 1-6 has a great eyebox, and that's one of my favorite things about it. Generally, eyebox isn't something reviewers talk about though.

For my purposes, namely run and gun with a race build 5.56mm, giant eyebox and super bright dot are really important for me. 6x is almost certainly enough for any reasonable practical shooting exercise. Maybe out in the southwest I'd have other ideas, but I'm not there.

I am right there with you; the longest distance range I can easily access is 200 yards. There's a 600 yard about an hour and a half from me but I've been to it once in the 6-7 years I lived here. Maybe if I moved to Arizona or Texas I would want that 10x but for me... I'll stick with what I got.

[David S.]

How does the Razor 1-6 eyebox compare to the Viper PST 1-6?

I have the Viper, just curious if that particular spec improves significantly with the higher level scope?

[joshs]

How does the Razor 1-6 eyebox compare to the Viper PST 1-6?

I have the Viper, just curious if that particular spec improves significantly with the higher level scope?

The eyebox is pretty similar. The Razor image is flatter on 1x, and the glass is a little better. They're very similar though.

[tlong17]

How does the Razor 1-6 eyebox compare to the Viper PST 1-6?

I have the Viper, just curious if that particular spec improves significantly with the higher level scope?

I’m no SF sniper but the eye box is identical between them to me. The 1x looks cleaner and more true to me on the PST as well. The scope ring is super thin on the Razor but I only notice it when I’m looking for it. When I’m actually using it I have not noticed a difference between the two.

I think the Razor collects more light and is more clear overall, but only slightly. Not enough for twice the price. As mentioned, the Razor has also proven durability in pretty tough environments whereas I don’t know that the PST has the same pedigree. But unless you’re working in extreme conditions regularly, may not matter.

[Nephrology]

How does the Razor 1-6 eyebox compare to the Viper PST 1-6?

I have the Viper, just curious if that particular spec improves significantly with the higher level scope?

I've owned both, I think the Razor is definitely nicer in a few respects, but as others have said the difference isn't incredible. I think someone once said the Viper is 80% of the razor for 50% of the price and I think that is true. I do feel that the Viper build quality "feels" obviously cheaper than the Razor which is in my mind the most noticeable difference. I also feel the Razor's glass is much better at resolving smaller objects at farther distances on 6x mag. Within 200yd the glass quality will not be functionally different as far as its utility as an aiming device goes, and beyond that you just might have a harder time seeing your hits on a paper target, which is tough to do with a 6x scope anyway and a job better suited for a spotting scope.

[David S.]

Thanks for the comments. It sounds like Viper PST is the Pareto Principle optic, which is I right where I normally like to be.

[Tokarev]

RAZOR Gen III MOA version in stock at Kenzies Optics:

https://www.kenziesoptics.com/product/vortex-razor-hd-gen-iii-1-10x24-ffp-riflescope-multiple-reticle-options/?redirect_mongo_id=60b1404b0ee3cf002d859615&utm_source=Springbot&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=60b1404b0ee3cf002d859616

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[tlong17]

MOA gets you killed on the streets

[pastaslinger]

MOA gets you killed on the streets

I don't own one but I have plugged both the MRAD and MOA reticles in strelok pro and if you are using it with 5.56, the MOA reticle seems to work much, much better

[Wake27]

I don't own one but I have plugged both the MRAD and MOA reticles in strelok pro and if you are using it with 5.56, the MOA reticle seems to work much, much better

How so?

The razor 1-10 is the only major LPVO I’ve noticed that has significant differences in reticle design between MOA and MIL variants. I sold my MOA to replace with the Christmas tree MRAD at some point.


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[pastaslinger]

How so?

The razor 1-10 is the only major LPVO I’ve noticed that has significant differences in reticle design between MOA and MIL variants. I sold my MOA to replace with the Christmas tree MRAD at some point.


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If you use a 50/200 yard zero, it appears that the numbered lines with windage holds correspond very well to drop at those respective yards. Aka the 3, 4, 5, and 6 lines correspond to 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards from what I can tell. So even though it isn't marketed as a BDC reticle, it really seems like it was designed as a very nice BDC for 5.56. Meanwhile, the MRAD reticle is all over the place with 5.56- if you use a 50/200 yard zero, the MRAD reticle markers correspond to approximately 330, 430, 510, 570, 630, 680, etc yards.

I actually have wanted this MOA reticle in a cheaper scope ever since I realized what it was. I like it much more than the ACSS reticles which are the closest thing in my mind.

[Wake27]

If you use a 50/200 yard zero, it appears that the numbered lines with windage holds correspond very well to drop at those respective yards. Aka the 3, 4, 5, and 6 lines correspond to 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards from what I can tell. So even though it isn't marketed as a BDC reticle, it really seems like it was designed as a very nice BDC for 5.56. Meanwhile, the MRAD reticle is all over the place with 5.56- if you use a 50/200 yard zero, the MRAD reticle markers correspond to approximately 330, 430, 510, 570, 630, 680, etc yards.

I actually have wanted this MOA reticle in a cheaper scope ever since I realized what it was. I like it much more than the ACSS reticles which are the closest thing in my mind.

That should be fairly dependent on barrel length and specific ammo though. What were you using for that data?


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[pastaslinger]

That should be fairly dependent on barrel length and specific ammo though. What were you using for that data?


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This is with m193 plugged in with an expected muzzle velocity of 3100 FPS (corresponding to about 16" barrel length or a fast 14.5" barrel)

I have plugged in for example.mk262 and the BDC reticle a tend to still be usable with tweaking of zero, but unfortunately I did not save this and would need to find the ammo specs for the calculator

Edit: I checked for mk262 and assuming normal 77gr smk bullets going at 2600 FPS, you match the BDC pretty well if you just switch to a 250 yard zero.

[mrozowjj]

An unboxing on the Delta 1-6 on C_Does youtube channel. The full review will likely come later but this will give you a better idea on the optic than I could have given.


https://youtu.be/_Ymwz7ULxYo

[Tokarev]

An unboxing on the Delta 1-6 on C_Does youtube channel. The full review will likely come later but this will give you a better idea on the optic than I could have given.


https://youtu.be/_Ymwz7ULxYo

A few more contenders from the same reviewer:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mGr17gDZ0A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWEpHudA_sw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFul5ME4Pyk

[javemtr]

There have been several first hand reports from members here that the eyebox of the Razor Gen III 1-10x is not as generous as that of the previous Gen II 1-6x. How do those experiences align with the results that this gentleman achieves? His approach is at least somewhat methodical and analytic, and he seems to get different results!?

https://youtu.be/4r-HO6b70Lc

[Eyesquared]

There have been several first hand reports from members here that the eyebox of the Razor Gen III 1-10x is not as generous as that of the previous Gen II 1-6x. How do those experiences align with the results that this gentleman achieves? His approach is at least somewhat methodical and analytic, and he seems to get different results!?

https://youtu.be/4r-HO6b70Lc

I like this video but he doesn't test off-axis tolerance on 1x, which is the part of the eyebox a lot of people are concerned with for fast, up close shooting or for unconventional positions. The formula of objective diameter / magnification doesn't work on 1x.

[Tokarev]

Some comparative efforts for some of the more expensive options on the market:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU3HVeaDkb8

[TWR]

After watching that last video, I like my Accupower 1-4’s even more.

FFP scopes and illuminated reticles just don’t impress me on low power and I don’t need daylight bright on high power. I love my FFP 3-9 SWFA for ranging at any magnification but if I’m trying to use a LPVO as a red dot, I want to see a bright red dot, Maybe it gets lost in the camera but I didn’t see anything Aimpoint bright on low power.

Thanks for the videos, I don’t think I’m as deprived as the internet chatter says I am with my Accupowers.

[littlejerry]

After watching that last video, I like my Accupower 1-4’s even more.

FFP scopes and illuminated reticles just don’t impress me on low power and I don’t need daylight bright on high power. I love my FFP 3-9 SWFA for ranging at any magnification but if I’m trying to use a LPVO as a red dot, I want to see a bright red dot, Maybe it gets lost in the camera but I didn’t see anything Aimpoint bright on low power.

Thanks for the videos, I don’t think I’m as deprived as the internet chatter says I am with my Accupowers.

The illumination definitely doesn't come through in video. The LED + fiber illuminated wire reticles (P4Xi, some Credo 1-6 SFP models, Razor 1-6, PSTII 1-6, Delta Stryker 1-6) create an Aimpoint bright dot. The NX8 had a crazy bright center and uses different tech to achieve it.

I'm not someone who thinks daylight bright reticles are a requirement, but I don't deny they have a real benefit.

[Tokarev]

Another LPVO review from C_Does:

https://youtu.be/KbjhyAKJKf0

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[joshs]

Another LPVO review from C_Does:

https://youtu.be/KbjhyAKJKf0

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That's pretty reflective of my experience with both the Viper and Razor (although my Viper didn't have the loose illumination knob noted in the video). The Viper is an outstanding value, and the Razor remains my favorite LPVO for a general purpose AR.

[Casual Friday]

Another LPVO review from C_Does:

https://youtu.be/KbjhyAKJKf0

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I like his apartment building walk throughs that he does. It really shows how a given optics dot/reticle will perform in several different lighting conditions.

[Tokarev]

That's pretty reflective of my experience with both the Viper and Razor (although my Viper didn't have the loose illumination knob noted in the video). The Viper is an outstanding value, and the Razor remains my favorite LPVO for a general purpose AR.

Garand Thumb reviews the Leupold Mark 6 and compares it to the Razor HD-E and the Nightforce ATACR.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo0EOrkoZ2Q

[Not HighSpeed]

Garand Thumb reviews the Leupold Mark 6 and compares it to the Razor HD-E and the Nightforce ATACR.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo0EOrkoZ2Q

This video was specifically responsible for my purchase of the Mk6 in 2019.

I know some people feel it is getting a bit "long in the tooth" with the advancement of the 1-8x, 1-10x and on that note, every LPVO less than that are then. But I do feel it is the best optic if you are looking at 1-6x(and also FFP, which the Mk6 is).

The reticle is nice, feels "just right" in my opinion. The glass is excellent and the weight is amazing, especially if paired with a Scalarworks mount. But they seem to be hard to find and are expensive. I lucked into one when I found mine for $1500(with the magnifier ring and mount) and I do admit, I may not have bought one if I couldn't find it for much more.

[Tokarev]

I've now had a chance to play around some with the Razor Gen III 1-10x24.

What I like:


Weight. Vortex did a fantastic job in this regard given the scope's features. Weight, as others have already said, is basically the same as the Razor and Viper 1-6 offerings.
Brightness. The reticle is definitely bright on the higher settings. In direct sunlight the user can probably run on setting 8 or 9 without difficulty.
Reticle. The MRAD (don't know about the MOA) reticle seems quite useful. It is not really visible at 1x but the three thick stadia surrounding the reticle could be used for rough aiming at close range if the battery dies or the user forgets to turn the illumination on. The reticle itself becomes useful and easily seen at about 3x. It does obscure the target at higher magnification but the reticle is translucent so the target is still somewhat visible.
Image. The glass is bright and clear and the turrets are low and don't appear in the periphery of the image.



What I don't like:


Price. The scope is expensive. With that said, it is cheaper than an ATACR or Mark 6, etc. Price for features is probably actually pretty darned good. If and when Vortex makes a Viper 1-10x24 with similar features for 40% of the price they'll own the market.
No scope caps. The scope comes with a throw lever but no caps. These should be included given the price.
Eye relief/eye box. At 1x it is fine and stays pretty forgiving up to about 5x or 6x. At the higher end it does get a little tight and touchy with regard to cheek weld and head placement. An issue overcome with practice? Probably.
Focus. Setting the image so it is crystal clear at 1x seemed to result in a slightly blurry image at 10x. Conversely setting the focus at 10x resulted in a blurry image at 1x. I assume most of this is based on no parallax adjustment and needing to figure out what distance (100 meters?) is best for an overall focus.



Is the Razor worth the purchase over something like the NX8 1-8? Hard to say but probably not. I'd say the difference in size and weight (and slightly lower cost) probably makes the NX8 the better product. And I think a person can pretty easily make the case that the difference between 8x and 9x or 10x becomes mostly academic.

[rob_s]

Is the Razor worth the purchase over something like the NX8 1-8? Hard to say but probably not.

So is the NX8 still the scope to beat? At $1700-1800?
https://www.amazon.com/NightForce-1-8x24-Zerostop-FC-Mil-Reticle/dp/B094DH3ZHV

Is there something *almost* as good for under $1k that doesn't make up the lower price by adding weight?

[Tokarev]

So is the NX8 still the scope to beat? At $1700-1800?
https://www.amazon.com/NightForce-1-8x24-Zerostop-FC-Mil-Reticle/dp/B094DH3ZHV



I'd save a few bucks and get it from here:

https://www.scopelist.com/Nightforce-NX8-1-8x24mm-F1-ZeroStop-2mrad-Capped-Windage-PTL-FC-Mil-C598-Show-De.aspx



Is there something *almost* as good for under $1k that doesn't make up the lower price by adding weight?

There doesn't seem to be. At least not in the 1-8+ class.

[dontshakepandas]

Is the Razor worth the purchase over something like the NX8 1-8? Hard to say but probably not. I'd say the difference in size and weight (and slightly lower cost) probably makes the NX8 the better product. And I think a person can pretty easily make the case that the difference between 8x and 9x or 10x becomes mostly academic.

I've had both, and still have the Razor Gen 3, so I would say it is absolutely worth getting over the NX8 unless the size and weight are critical factors.

The NX8 and Razor both have a tight-ish eye box on max magnification, but the Razor is substantially easier for me to use at 1x. I could not ever get the diopter on the NX8 set where I got a true 1x and on one sample I had I almost always had a double vision issue. The Razor also has a more useful reticle with wind holds and a more usable center dot.

The Gen 3 Razor can also be had at the same price as the NX8, or at least within a few hundred dollars.

If you it will be living on a 14.5" or longer gun I'd go with the Razor. If you are putting this on an SBR and want as small and light a package as possible, the NX8 is still a great choice. I have a Kahles K16i on my 12.5" SBR though and would recommend that over the NX8 also for about the same price and weight.

[Eyesquared]

Don't know how much time you have on the NX8 but from what I've heard the exit pupil is relatively unforgiving on 1x compared to other 1-8x scopes. NF says 7.9mm on 1x, PA platinum and the NF ATACR are around 11mm IIRC. I don't think Vortex publishes a number for the 1-10 but from what I've heard it's comparable to the ATACR.

Couple guys I know got NX8s and were not impressed with that and the optical quality for the price (highly subjective, to be fair). One of them also had to back out the diopter adjustment significantly and it kept moving on him. Really ends up depending a lot on how much you value the 1x performance VS the weight. One guy joked that NF made a light/small scope and forgot to make it usable.

[mrozowjj]

I've now had a chance to play around some with the Razor Gen III 1-10x24.

What I don't like:


Eye relief/eye box. At 1x it is fine and stays pretty forgiving up to about 5x or 6x. At the higher end it does get a little tight and touchy with regard to cheek weld and head placement. An issue overcome with practice? Probably.
Focus. Setting the image so it is crystal clear at 1x seemed to result in a slightly blurry image at 10x. Conversely setting the focus at 10x resulted in a blurry image at 1x. I assume most of this is based on no parallax adjustment and needing to figure out what distance (100 meters?) is best for an overall focus.



Is the Razor worth the purchase over something like the NX8 1-8? Hard to say but probably not. I'd say the difference in size and weight (and slightly lower cost) probably makes the NX8 the better product. And I think a person can pretty easily make the case that the difference between 8x and 9x or 10x becomes mostly academic.


Those are the two things I found annoying and why I came to the same conclusion as you. I asked myself "Do I need 9 and 10x when the eyebox is so tight I have no wiggle room?" and I answered no so I stuck with my NX8.



So is the NX8 still the scope to beat? At $1700-1800?
https://www.amazon.com/NightForce-1-8x24-Zerostop-FC-Mil-Reticle/dp/B094DH3ZHV

Is there something *almost* as good for under $1k that doesn't make up the lower price by adding weight?


Well if you are not in a hurry and willing to basically spend your free time scouring the boards the NX8 will turn up on AR15.com EE or Sniper Hide for sell sections for $1400-1500 range every so often. They go quick so you'll have to decide how much your time is worth. (i.e. if you are willing to spend your time checking those forums to get luck enough to be the first person to reply vs just spending 100-200 more to get it new.)

For something almost as good I really like my Delta Stryker 1-6. I got it a few weeks ago and finally had a chance to shoot with it on sunday and it is quite nice if you are willing to live with a 1-6 instead of a 1-8 it's really good. I would very seriously consider putting it on my main gun and selling my NX8 but the NX8 is known to be basically bomb proof and this is a new scope from a new company so I'm not sure if it has the same level of durability. Anyone know how durable these scopes really are?

If you are willing to live with 1-6 and the added weight the Vortex Razor Gen 2 is still top notch and can be had for sub $1000 from time to time if you wait for a deal; places like scopelist have refurbs sometimes for $900-ish.

[rob_s]

For something almost as good I really like my Delta Stryker 1-6. I got it a few weeks ago and finally had a chance to shoot with it on sunday and it is quite nice if you are willing to live with a 1-6 instead of a 1-8 it's really good. I would very seriously consider putting it on my main gun and selling my NX8 but the NX8 is known to be basically bomb proof and this is a new scope from a new company so I'm not sure if it has the same level of durability. Anyone know how durable these scopes really are?

If you are willing to live with 1-6 and the added weight the Vortex Razor Gen 2 is still top notch and can be had for sub $1000 from time to time if you wait for a deal; places like scopelist have refurbs sometimes for $900-ish.

Me personally, I'd say my list of requirements is something like


price <$1k
Weight <18oz
"daylight bright"
"true" 1x
something
something else
another thing
some other stuff
a thing I can't remember
a thing I forgot
one other thing
top-end magnification over 6x

[Tokarev]

Me personally, I'd say my list of requirements is something like


price <$1k=Viper or Steiner
Weight <18oz=Steiner is close
"daylight bright" Viper or Steiner
"true" 1×=Viper
top-end magnification over 6x ....



3/5 of the requirements met by the PST Gen II or the P4xi.


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[mrozowjj]

Me personally, I'd say my list of requirements is something like


price <$1k
Weight <18oz
"daylight bright"
"true" 1x
something
something else
another thing
some other stuff
a thing I can't remember
a thing I forgot
one other thing
top-end magnification over 6x


Well you should check out the Delta Stryker 1-6. If you lived close to the PNW I'd offer to let you check the one I have out. Imagine the PX4 with a slightly better reticle and a 6x top end.

[rob_s]

3/5 of the requirements met by the PST Gen II or the P4xi.

former is way too heavy (debated about putting weight #1), but latter is where my head's been at.

[Tokarev]

former is way too heavy (debated about putting weight #1), but latter is where my head's been at.

The SAI 6 also meets some of your specs. Weight is good. Price is over but maybe that's $1,199 Canadian? Don't know about daylight bright. And mag tops out at 6 power.

https://armament.com/sai-optics-model-sai-6/

[Tokarev]

Don't know how much time you have on the NX8 but from what I've heard the exit pupil is relatively unforgiving on 1x compared to other 1-8x scopes. NF says 7.9mm on 1x, PA platinum and the NF ATACR are around 11mm IIRC. I don't think Vortex publishes a number for the 1-10 but from what I've heard it's comparable to the ATACR.

Couple guys I know got NX8s and were not impressed with that and the optical quality for the price (highly subjective, to be fair). One of them also had to back out the diopter adjustment significantly and it kept moving on him. Really ends up depending a lot on how much you value the 1x performance VS the weight. One guy joked that NF made a light/small scope and forgot to make it usable.It is pretty hard to get a feel for all this stuff without being able to buy it and use it for awhile. I do have some time on the NX8 but it has all been looking through them mounted on someone else's rifle or looking across the parking lot from the door of the gun shop.

Pretty much my experience with the Razor III at this point, too.

If I were to maximize weight and size on my list of priorities I'd probably go with the capped turrets version of the NX8.

If size and weight was a secondary concern over magnification the Razor wins. Plus I think I prefer the Razor reticle to the NF. The translucent feature is pretty neat.

The NX8 is slightly less expensive. Or maybe the correct thing is it has been on the market longer so is easier to find on sale. This probably also means the NX8 won't have as good a resale value?

Kind of a wash overall but the NF is probably the better "all around" LVPO.

I guess I need to buy one of each and run them side by side for awhile....

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[Tokarev]

Has this been posted yet? If not, it is worth a look. If so, it is worth a 2nd look.

https://youtu.be/UXDZBnKs9sQ

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[Tokarev]

Another video. This from some guy we've never heard of.

https://youtu.be/hVTU3d6eYPU

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[Tokarev]

So I just picked up this:

http://darnfineshot.com/deopsthd130t.html

Weight is right at 1.12 pounds according to my digital postal scale.

Reticle is an MRAD based crosshair with both tick marks and dots. Sort of reminds me of the Leupold TMR. I think it is pretty similar to the Vortex VMR-2.

Illumination has 11 settings with an off between as is the industry standard. I'd read somewhere that it isn't daylight bright but I don't think that's correct. On full blast I think it is pretty close to the Viper on its highest setting. It should be daylight usable under all but the most extreme lighting conditions.

Built-in throw lever.

It seems to be a true 1x and has just a slight warping or fish eye on the low setting that goes away at 2x.

Made in Japan.

Overall seems like a solid option in its price class. Lighter and cheaper than many other scopes. It should be popular.

Sorry for the blurry reticle pic. If I can get one that's better I'll post it. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/b5894d6c0c0e2fda3d296d8afeb282d8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/ea13c01666956b34dcb5f983968509c1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/9566e59abbdd209e3c3e36d9093d4795.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/2847b271f724eff87f61d723cc195467.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/f932dcfd1d57f9b6555782098397b0b5.jpg

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[Tokarev]

Strelok app photo. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/9bb121cb1e28b5258587ccac075a9183.jpg

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[mrozowjj]

Strelok app photo. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/9bb121cb1e28b5258587ccac075a9183.jpg

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So you found the reticle in the app finally. :D

[Tokarev]

Dark Lord of Optics discusses some different LVPOs to include having his Vortex Razor III's parallax reset from the factory default 150 to 300 yards.

Parallax stuff takes place at about 24 minutes in...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLNYCsU9Rkk

[Tokarev]

And Garand Thumb is out with a new video on the SIG Tango 6:


https://youtu.be/pdFe9fWvJGI

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[Nephrology]

So I just picked up this:

http://darnfineshot.com/deopsthd130t.html

Weight is right at 1.12 pounds according to my digital postal scale.

Reticle is an MRAD based crosshair with both tick marks and dots. Sort of reminds me of the Leupold TMR. I think it is pretty similar to the Vortex VMR-2.

Illumination has 11 settings with an off between as is the industry standard. I'd read somewhere that it isn't daylight bright but I don't think that's correct. On full blast I think it is pretty close to the Viper on its highest setting. It should be daylight usable under all but the most extreme lighting conditions.

Built-in throw lever.

It seems to be a true 1x and has just a slight warping or fish eye on the low setting that goes away at 2x.

Made in Japan.

Overall seems like a solid option in its price class. Lighter and cheaper than many other scopes. It should be popular.

Sorry for the blurry reticle pic. If I can get one that's better I'll post it. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/b5894d6c0c0e2fda3d296d8afeb282d8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/ea13c01666956b34dcb5f983968509c1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/9566e59abbdd209e3c3e36d9093d4795.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/2847b271f724eff87f61d723cc195467.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210612/f932dcfd1d57f9b6555782098397b0b5.jpg

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This is what I'd get if I was in the market now, but probably not buying new rifles or rifle optics for a while.

[Tokarev]

Another Stryker review:

https://youtu.be/lt7ut0HEkgU

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[mrozowjj]

Another Stryker review:

https://youtu.be/lt7ut0HEkgU

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I don't know why I'm watching a review of an optic I already own. I think partly to see if he comes to the same conclusions I did as it will make me trust his opinions on other optics more.

[Tokarev]

I don't know why I'm watching a review of an optic I already own. I think partly to see if he comes to the same conclusions I did as it will make me trust his opinions on other optics more.I don't disagree with him regarding the reticle although I haven't done anything yet with the scope.

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[mrozowjj]

I don't disagree with him regarding the reticle although I haven't done anything yet with the scope.

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I did some shooting with mine and I don't mind the extra lines. I am able to ignore them unless I need them but if you want something simplier they make the DGMR reticle though it is back ordered right now so there will be a wait for it. That said I fully agree with his assessment, it's 90-95% of the Razor Gen 2 at Viper PST prices and 4-5 oz lighter. That said I have no gun I want to put mine on (unless I want to replace my NX8 with it) so I'm just going to hold onto it until I do I guess.

73084

[Tokarev]

I did some shooting with mine and I don't mind the extra lines. I am able to ignore them unless I need them but if you want something simplier they make the DGMR reticle though it is back ordered right now so there will be a wait for it.

I am not looking for "simpler." I want "useful."

Something along the lines of the SIG DWLR, Leupold CMR2 or CMRW, SAI CX9001 or even the Steiner P3TR reticle would be nice. Something with some quick range estimation information and some quick reference marks for holdover to about 600 yards on a USPSA or torso-sized target.

Don't take it the wrong way, Mrozo, as I know how fond you are of this scope. I have similar complaints about the VMR-2 reticle Vortex uses. Vortex should look at putting some kind of modified EBR reticle in the LPVO Viper and Razor.

[Wake27]

I am not looking for "simpler." I want "useful."

Something along the lines of the SIG DWLR, Leupold CMR2 or CMRW, SAI CX9001 or even the Steiner P3TR reticle would be nice. Something with some quick range estimation information and some quick reference marks for holdover to about 600 yards on a USPSA or torso-sized target.

Don't take it the wrong way, Mrozo, as I know how fond you are of this scope. I have similar complaints about the VMR-2 reticle Vortex uses. Vortex should look at putting some kind of modified EBR reticle in the LPVO Viper and Razor.

I agree, something similar to their 1-10 MRAD reticle in the 1-6 MRAD could be awesome.

[Rick R]

How about U.S Optics? I’m looking at TS-6X-SFP US OPTICS 1-6X24MM SFP W/ ILLUMINATED 2 MOA RED DOT CROSSHAIR. I like a #4 type reticle and this checks most all of MY boxes for what I use a 16” carbine if it’s a decent optic.

[TWR]

US Optics has at least part of their line made in China. I would be very careful.

[Rick R]

US Optics has at least part of their line made in China. I would be very careful.

Apparently the “TS” scopes are “manufactured overseas” (China) and then inspected by U.S. Optics. I also can’t find any reviews that don’t smell fishy.

Going to take a pass for now.

[Eyesquared]

Got a Vortex Viper 1-6 and Razor HD 1-6 Gen 2-E. The talk about the Viper being 80% of a Razor for 50% of the cost is very accurate. I like the Razor a bit more but the Viper seems like a steal.

[Eyesquared]

I guess I should elaborate on my last cause I hate when people make "x is better than y" posts but don't explain.

1. Razor build quality just feels better (this is super subjective and is probably influenced by knowing that there are SOF units using these)
2. Clicks feel similarly tactile but not overly stiff like on my Viper. The Viper felt fine just playing around with the scope indoors but making adjustments with in 100 degree heat with sweaty hands, it wasn't good. Not a big deal because for me adjusting the LPVO turrets is an admin task.
3. Razor is a bit shorter, the Viper is pretty long. When I had the Viper on the gun I didn't think the length would matter to me at all given that the gun is already long, but for some reason I do actually like that the scope is a little shorter.
4. In theory the Razor may be more durable but that's basically not a consideration IMO, given that I'm not privy to any kind of comparative testing data to actually prove that. This is totally conjecture.
5. Locking illumination is nice.
6. On 1x through the Razor, the "ring" of the ocular looks thinner than with the Viper.
7. The Razor glass looks just a tiny bit better than the Viper glass to me. Again I think it is very likely that my perception of this is influenced by knowing the price points and knowing where the scopes are made. If I were to double blind test the scopes, I don't think most people would be able to tell.

Reticle wise I'm torn. I got JM1 for the Razor cause it's what I found a deal on, but some part of me thinks the MRAD is better because the JM1 reticle doesn't really give you anything to work with for windage holds. Even with the MRAD I kind of don't like that you're just holding off in space vs having some kind of Christmas tree or or wind dots like on the 1-10 BDC reticle. All that being said, it's a SFP scope and I'm using it on a gun with a 14.5" chrome lined barrel, so the idea that I'm going to read the wind and get first round hits at long distance is a little questionable. Maybe the better solution is just learning the holds with a system like holding left 1/4 of target, left edge, etc. which will work on any magnification vs just 6x.

Between the two scopes the eyebox feels the same BUT I haven't tested it properly, just going off my perception. I've noticed that when people compare eyeboxes across scopes, it's like chicks measuring dicks (pardon the crude simile), they have 0 frame of reference for how the subjective impressions line up with measurable reality. So you end up with people saying that X scope feels the same as Y scope when the exit pupil is different, or you get people saying X scope is better than Y scope but the exit pupil is totally the same.

[mrozowjj]

Between the two scopes the eyebox feels the same BUT I haven't tested it properly, just going off my perception. I've noticed that when people compare eyeboxes across scopes, it's like chicks measuring dicks (pardon the crude simile), they have 0 frame of reference for how the subjective impressions line up with measurable reality. So you end up with people saying that X scope feels the same as Y scope when the exit pupil is different, or you get people saying X scope is better than Y scope but the exit pupil is totally the same.

I'll add onto this and say it seems like people are far more prone to hyperbole with the internet culture so if the eyebox on one scope isn't that good you'll have people say "That has the worst eyebox ever." or if the eyebox on something is good it will be "This eyebox is insane!" and then it will become a meme and everyone will believe it.

I really think the only way to know if you'll like a scope is to go try one out so buy from a company with a good return policy online or go in person.

[Doc_Glock]

I did a rather sloppy 100 yd zero on the 16” BCM/Viper 1-6 combo. I realized I have a lot to learn about proper scope placement especially with an adjustable stock.

Is there a best practice for this? It just seems like I am nearly always in the wrong place. It makes me want to just put a fixed stock on. Plus the distance from my eye to scope
seems to change from standing to prone.

Any guidance appreciated I don’t know my head from a hole in the ground in figuring out fore-aft placement of the scope.

73618

Current set up with kiddo.

edited to add: I am going to read through this article.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/how-to-mount-a-rifle-scope/

After reading that I see my main issue is I don’t really know where I want my adjustable stock to sit. I can mount the optic properly, I am just not experienced enough with ARs to pick a setting on the stock, which is a whole different issue. My prior red dot experience never made me have to commit before!

[Wake27]

I did a rather sloppy 100 yd zero on the 16” BCM/Viper 1-6 combo. I realized I have a lot to learn about proper scope placement especially with an adjustable stock.

Is there a best practice for this? It just seems like I am nearly always in the wrong place. It makes me want to just put a fixed stock on. Plus the distance from my eye to scope
seems to change from standing to prone.

Any guidance appreciated I don’t know my head from a hole in the ground in figuring out fore-aft placement of the scope.

73618

Current set up with kiddo.

edited to add: I am going to read through this article.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/how-to-mount-a-rifle-scope/

After reading that I see my main issue is I don’t really know where I want my adjustable stock to sit. I can mount the optic properly, I am just not experienced enough with ARs to pick a setting on the stock, which is a whole different issue. My prior red dot experience never made me have to commit before!

Kyle Defoor has a good video or two on YouTube about this. Retractable AR stocks will generally work best extended as far as possible, while still being comfortable. If you’re five foot nothing, having it all the way out will likely not be ideal. Same if you’re six five and have it fully collapsed. I’m 72” even, have average wingspan for my height, and prefer it one click in unless I’m in armor, then I drop it two clicks in. I mark the location on my buffer tube with a paint pen so that I don’t have to count every time. Vortex scopes (viper 1-6, razor 1-6, razor 1-10) tend to have the start of the ocular lens about even with the end plate for me. Then from there, it’s diopter adjustment. Once that’s done, I also mark that with a paint pen.

ETA - I’ve also never shot NTCH style with an optic. Seeing a difference in positions is not uncommon, and you’ll definitely see a difference in eye box at differing zoom levels.

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[Doc_Glock]

Kyle Defoor has a good video or two on YouTube about this. Retractable AR stocks will generally work best extended as far as possible, while still being comfortable. If you’re five foot nothing, having it all the way out will likely not be ideal. Same if you’re six five and have it fully collapsed. I’m 72” even, have average wingspan for my height, and prefer it one click in unless I’m in armor, then I drop it two clicks in. I mark the location on my buffer tube with a paint pen so that I don’t have to count every time. Vortex scopes (viper 1-6, razor 1-6, razor 1-10) tend to have the start of the ocular lens about even with the end plate for me. Then from there, it’s diopter adjustment. Once that’s done, I also mark that with a paint pen.

ETA - I’ve also never shot NTCH style with an optic. Seeing a difference in positions is not uncommon, and you’ll definitely see a difference in eye box at differing zoom levels.

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Thanks. It looks like standard A2 length is 13.5”. I measured a bunch of long guns in the safe and they were all 13-13.5” and I bet the designers know a thing or two. I stand 73” but usually run my AR stocks pretty short, 11.5-12” or so. The 1301 is as short as possible at 12.5”

Sounds like I should standardize to a longer LOP on the ARs as I am a pretty typical ~6” 70kg male that most models are designed around. At least they were back in the day.

[SecondsCount]

I'm kind of done with anything below a Vortex Razor at this point, and have seen some recent failures on the Gen II Razors. They have great marketing, a good warranty, but I their products just don't hold up that well.

Based on issues I have personally had, I have moved to the high end Bushnell and Burris stuff for that price point, and have never had an issue with any Nightforce products for the pro grade applications.. One of my Nighforce scopes is 22 years old and works like new.

[Tokarev]

...have seen some recent failures on the Gen II Razors. They have great marketing, a good warranty, but I their products just don't hold up that well.

What problems are you seeing?

Agreed with their marketing. Leupold certainly could have taken a lesson with regard to the Redfield line of budget imports.

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[SecondsCount]

What problems are you seeing?

Agreed with their marketing. Leupold certainly could have taken a lesson with regard to the Redfield line of budget imports.

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A good friend had one fail on his SCAR-17, which are notorious for being hard on scopes, and another shooter had the reticle go wonky on a 5.56 AR.

[Tokarev]

A good friend had one fail on his SCAR-17, which are notorious for being hard on scopes, and another shooter had the reticle go wonky on a 5.56 AR.I don't know if I'd condemn the Razor based on SCAR. As you note that gun is known to kill optics.

That's one thing about Leupold. Love them or hate them they do have a reputation for durability.

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[SecondsCount]

I don't know if I'd condemn the Razor based on SCAR. As you note that gun is known to kill optics.

That's one thing about Leupold. Love them or hate them they do have a reputation for durability.

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I've never been a big Leupold fan. They may be durable as I have two older models and they still work, but they always lack in features compared to the others.

I got into precision rifle shooting in the late 90s. My first decent scope was a Simmons 6-20 target model that was made in the Philippines. It wasn't a Leupold but it did what I needed. When I went to make the jump up to the next level, it was either Nightforce or Leupold. The Nighforce was heavier but had a lot more features for the buck so I went that route. On a heavy barreled rifle, a little more weight didn't matter to me.

Today Leupold has the MK 5HD line which is getting close but two friends have had them and sold them as they liked their Nightforce better.

For the general hunting crowd, Leupold is probably the right answer.

[mmc45414]

I realized I have a lot to learn about proper scope placement especially with an adjustable stock.

Is there a best practice for this? It just seems like I am nearly always in the wrong place. It makes me want to just put a fixed stock on.
It seemed like everytime I picked up my carbine I farted around with the stock. I ended up switching to the Magpul fixed carbine stock. I added the little thicker pad and it seems just right for me (my arms are kinda short). They are cheap, so I just got four of them. And they do not rattle.



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[CS Tactical]

I've never been a big Leupold fan. They may be durable as I have two older models and they still work, but they always lack in features compared to the others.

I got into precision rifle shooting in the late 90s. My first decent scope was a Simmons 6-20 target model that was made in the Philippines. It wasn't a Leupold but it did what I needed. When I went to make the jump up to the next level, it was either Nightforce or Leupold. The Nighforce was heavier but had a lot more features for the buck so I went that route. On a heavy barreled rifle, a little more weight didn't matter to me.

Today Leupold has the MK 5HD line which is getting close but two friends have had them and sold them as they liked their Nightforce better.

For the general hunting crowd, Leupold is probably the right answer.


As I was just making a post on the Leupold MK5 HD line in the Supporting Business Forum Link (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?48801-Leupold-MK-5HD-in-stock-at-cstactical-com&p=1238074#post1238074), I will say that Leupold has made huge strides lately listening to their shooting team and customers. Team Leupold using the MK5 5-25 with the new PR2 reticle has been finishing very strong in the NRL/PRS national matches this year so they have been tracking true and optically it's about the best scope you can buy just under $2,000. The MK5 HD 3.6-18 is also an excellent option for either a hunting rig or on top of a precision gas gun when you are looking for more than 8-10x on the high end. Leupold, Nightforce, Vortex, Zero Compromise Optic, Tangent Theta all have excellent options available... Pick your budget, magnification range, features and reticle than try to narrow down which will fit for you. Now back to LPVO's :o

I've sold quite a few Razors Gen II and 3's and have not had any customers break any that I personally know of, but I've heard of some customers who have broken many durable scope they had from S&B to Nightforce lol

[Doc_Glock]

It seemed like everytime I picked up my carbine I farted around with the stock. I ended up switching to the Magpul fixed carbine stock. I added the little thicker pad and it seems just right for me (my arms are kinda short). They are cheap, so I just got four of them. And they do not rattle.



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Okay thanks for that. I was looking at the Magpul Rifle length stock last night and forgot about the carbine one. At 12.2" LOP it sits right near where I run the shotgun and my usual red dot SBR and may be just the ticket. Plus no need to change to rifle tube and spring etc.

https://magpul.com/moe-fixed-carbine-stock-mil-spec.html?mp_global_color=118

[mmc45414]

Okay thanks for that.
Glad I could help. I wished mine were a just a little longer so I also added these:
https://magpul.com/prs-extended-rubber-buttpad.html?mp_global_color=118

If a person is not adjusting for body armor I think they are a good solution.

[Eyesquared]

Liberty Optics is doing nearly 25% off on the Vortex 1-10, add to cart to see. It's on backorder though. I'd be super tempted but really shouldn't given that I just blew like $1.8k on scopes and mounts.

[Wake27]

Liberty Optics is doing nearly 25% off on the Vortex 1-10, add to cart to see. It's on backorder though. I'd be super tempted but really shouldn't given that I just blew like $1.8k on scopes and mounts.

Best price I've ever seen on the Gen III or Gen II Razors, including some places with very aggressive military discounts. If those were in stock, I don't think I'd be able to resist. I miss my Razors.

[CS Tactical]

Liberty Optics is doing nearly 25% off on the Vortex 1-10, add to cart to see. It's on backorder though. I'd be super tempted but really shouldn't given that I just blew like $1.8k on scopes and mounts.


Best price I've ever seen on the Gen III or Gen II Razors, including some places with very aggressive military discounts. If those were in stock, I don't think I'd be able to resist. I miss my Razors.

We also provide Vortex's .gov pricing, and give us a call at 916-670-1103x2 and I'll see what I can do on the Vortex Gen 3 1-10 MRAD and Gen 2 1-6 MRAD that we currently have in stock :)

[Tokarev]

Steiner drops a new version of the P4xi. Looks pretty much the same as the legacy model. I see a locking eyepiece adjustment has been added. Biggest change is the reticle.

https://cameralandny.com/shop/steiner-p4xi-1-4x24-v2-g1-5204/4bd818e0-bda6-0139-8936-00163ecd2826?variation=2997859

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[rob_s]

Steiner drops a new version of the P4xi. Looks pretty much the same as the legacy model. I see a locking eyepiece adjustment has been added. Biggest change is the reticle.

https://cameralandny.com/shop/steiner-p4xi-1-4x24-v2-g1-5204/4bd818e0-bda6-0139-8936-00163ecd2826?variation=2997859

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I'm sure a lot of folks won't, but I kinda like that green diamond.

I had an eotech with a diamond a long time ago and rather liked it

[rob_s]

dupe

[Tokarev]

I'm sure a lot of folks won't, but I kinda like that green diamond.

I had an eotech with a diamond a long time ago and rather liked itThe Steiner diamond is designed to measure an 18" target at 200 meters across the center. There are vertical stadia lines at 2, 3 and 4 mil that also reference 18"

Adjustments on the 5204 are noted as .1 mil per click. They are ½" on the 5202.




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[SecondsCount]

An unboxing on the Delta 1-6 on C_Does youtube channel. The full review will likely come later but this will give you a better idea on the optic than I could have given.


https://youtu.be/_Ymwz7ULxYo

I have been looking at one of these as the price point is closer to a PST II but the optic is made by LOW Japan, making the glass on par with a 1-6 Razor.

Who has personal experience with one?

[mrozowjj]

I have been looking at one of these as the price point is closer to a PST II but the optic is made by LOW Japan, making the glass on par with a 1-6 Razor.

Who has personal experience with one?

I have one and I payed about it here a few pages back. I would recommend it highly. Basically imagine a Steiner px4 but it's a 1-6 and you'll know what to expect.

[SecondsCount]

I have one and I payed about it here a few pages back. I would recommend it highly. Basically imagine a Steiner px4 but it's a 1-6 and you'll know what to expect.

I missed that page :D

I've never seen the PX4 in the wild. Around here it seems like everyone is running Vortex, Leupold, or something cheap from China.

The two LPVOs that I am currently running are an old 1-4X Razor, which has been a great optic, and a Bushnell 1-8.5 SMRS. I like the look of the MIL reticle on the Stryker and was thinking of swapping the 1-4 Razor out.

[Tokarev]

I missed that page :D

I've never seen the PX4 in the wild. Around here it seems like everyone is running Vortex, Leupold, or something cheap from China.

The two LPVOs that I am currently running are an old 1-4X Razor, which has been a great optic, and a Bushnell 1-8.5 SMRS. I like the look of the MIL reticle on the Stryker and was thinking of swapping the 1-4 Razor out.I have a Delta Stryker 1-6 as well. I like the size and weight. Optically it is nice. Bright image. Maybe a little fuzzy at the very edges. Nothing a person would ever notice while actually using.

The reticle is the thing I like the least. In my opinion the mil dot format is wasted here. Delta needs something like the Leupold CMR2, SIG DWLR6 or SAI CX9001 here.

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[SecondsCount]

I have a Delta Stryker 1-6 as well. I like the size and weight. Optically it is nice. Bright image. Maybe a little fuzzy at the very edges. Nothing a person would ever notice while actually using.

The reticle is the thing I like the least. In my opinion the mil dot format is wasted here. Delta needs something like the Leupold CMR2, SIG DWLR6 or SAI CX9001 here.

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Thanks for the review.

So you don't shoot your AR to 1000 yards like the rest of us? ;)

I have that similar BDC reticle in a Burris XTR II which is currently for sale. They work okay until you start doing some distance shooting. If you have a spotter trying to tell you where your hits and misses are, it's difficult for them to give you an exact measurement, say .5 mils left or 2 MOA right, etc. The spotter can give you some reference, like come up half a target, but it isn't easy.

Also, targets are typically not at set ranges. You could have targetts at 545, 680, and 790.

Maybe we should trade!

[Tokarev]

Thanks for the review.

So you don't shoot your AR to 1000 yards like the rest of us? ;)

I have that similar BDC reticle in a Burris XTR II which is currently for sale. They work okay until you start doing some distance shooting. If you have a spotter trying to tell you where your hits and misses are, it's difficult for them to give you an exact measurement, say .5 mils left or 2 MOA right, etc. The spotter can give you some reference, like come up half a target, but it isn't easy.

Also, targets are typically not at set ranges. You could have targetts at 545, 680, and 790.

Maybe we should trade!If you want a basic mil based reticle then the Stryker will appeal to you.



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[Tokarev]

Here is another C_Does video for the Stryker.

https://youtu.be/rzef6cWBEh0

Watching this reminds me of another complaint I have with the Delta and scopes like it with the threaded receptacle for a throw lever. The lever sits at 9:00 and is easily snagged on gear. I'd prefer to have it more tucked away at about 8:00 or 9:00. Granted this may slow access a bit but I think a more protected location is important.

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[Tokarev]

...prefer to have it more tucked away at about 8:00 or 9:00.

7:00 or 8:00 is what I meant above.


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[senorlechero]

I did a rather sloppy 100 yd zero on the 16” BCM/Viper 1-6 combo. I realized I have a lot to learn about proper scope placement especially with an adjustable stock.

Is there a best practice for this? It just seems like I am nearly always in the wrong place. It makes me want to just put a fixed stock on. Plus the distance from my eye to scope
seems to change from standing to prone.

Any guidance appreciated I don’t know my head from a hole in the ground in figuring out fore-aft placement of the scope.

73618

Current set up with kiddo.

edited to add: I am going to read through this article.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/how-to-mount-a-rifle-scope/

After reading that I see my main issue is I don’t really know where I want my adjustable stock to sit. I can mount the optic properly, I am just not experienced enough with ARs to pick a setting on the stock, which is a whole different issue. My prior red dot experience never made me have to commit before!

Ridgeline Defense has a great series of videos about setting your rifle to you. I suggest you give them a watch and take notes. Once you get the rifle set up properly you should have good eye relief in any position.

https://youtu.be/r5iRchc6Eqc

For those of you wanting a lightweight, true 1x with a daylight bright reticle have you considered the Leupold VX6hd 1-6?

For whoever is wanting;
sub $1000
sub 16oz
sub 10 in OAL
true 1x
razor like eyebox
aimpoint bright
aimpoint battery life
more than 6x

I gotta tell you, if you can make that scope you'll be a wealthy man.


Razor vs Viper 1-6; The razor has a MUCH better 1x to me. The eyebox is more forgiving and the image is much more crisp and flat. The locking illumination knob is a big plus and that's about it IMO. The old "viper is 80% the razor for 50% the price" rings true to me. The 1x of the viper is great, the razor is just better. However it is not worth the extra cost TO ME. I can buy 2 Vipers for the cost of a razor currently and have enough left over for one good mount. I was really hoping that the release of the Gen III would drive the Razor Gen II price down but I haven't seen that materialize at all.

I haven't looked at the Delta Stryker but I believe that the Vortex Viper PST Gen II 1-6 is the best LPVO for under $1000. I'd say $1500 but then everyone and their mother would chime in about how their friends sisters husband got a Razor for $900 somewhere.

I also really wanted to get a Steiner P4xi, when they were $450. Now? No way.

Leupold could get a serious lock on the market if they would make a sub $1,000, sub 16oz 1-5/6 SFP etched reticle. The one "downside" to the Viper is the weight but I'm willing to tolerate it for the performance I get WITHOUT spending $2000+. I'd love to get similar performance while cutting the weight down by a third. Why they keep making 1.5-whateveritdoesn'tmatters I don't know.

I'm REALLY hoping that Vortex makes a Viper Gen III.

[Tokarev]

Two podcasts with some good but brief discussions about EOTech's VUDU scopes. Mostly 5-25 variant.

Curious to see what else they might have coming to market in the VUDU lineup.

https://youtu.be/6LBm30ZUkr4

Edit--episode 58 appears to be locked/made private. Maybe because Aaron Hampton briefly shows a soon-to-be-released pistol optic?





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[Tokarev]

We have received our order of Steiner 5204 scopes with the new reticle.

The new reticle is green with a fairly big diamond and aggressive/jagged stadia lines extending from the 3, 6 and 9 of the diamond. It is supposed to be mil based with mil adjustments while the original series 5202 is inch based.

The reticle seems okay ans should be useful. Biggest drawback is that it isn't as bright as the simple dot of the 5202.

I do like the locking eyepiece adjustment.

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[Tokarev]

Pics.

Pretty much indistinguishable at first glance. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/7c5d1cb39f8d6165b989fc24ed412d10.jpg

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[Tokarev]

Note lock ring on 5204 vs no ring on 5202. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/74814977b675fdd5aeaeca74d16abb99.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/f4001e8090e6de8ec9855360c16c0565.jpg

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[Tokarev]

Inch vs mil adjustment. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/53118ab820905e3f07c8d0c908cce7da.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/6b20ad7b2ef1c20de9e7ff6d98398be0.jpg

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[Tokarev]

Impossible totally worthless comparison pics of the red dot vs green diamond.

Yellow hearts, blue moons, green diamonds?



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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/ec1eec0e9d9becf76dbcd1c6caf5580e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/9bac4e8e83ad621381388f4a14b4cfcc.jpg

[TWR]

Forgive me if this has been discussed but what is the rated battery life with the green dot?

I know I can’t see green nearly as well as red but Trijicon cuts the battery life drastically with green vs. red.

[Tokarev]

Forgive me if this has been discussed but what is the rated battery life with the green dot?

I know I canÂ’t see green nearly as well as red but Trijicon cuts the battery life drastically with green vs. red.

Here is what Bob Protheroe told me when I asked him about battery life:

Battery life and brightness are going to be different between the 5202 and 5204 for a couple reasons.

1. The 5202 has a single illuminated dot using a fiber optic light pipe. This created a very bright dot at the center of the reticle. The 5204 is using an etched glass reticle. These two technologies are hugely different in the efficiency of directing the light from the LED to the reticle, to the user. The fiber dot is very efficient, very bright, but can only be a single dot. The glass reticle is very inefficient, not very bright, but can give you much more complex reticle patterns for the illuminated and non-illuminated features. I believe we have some unique light coupling methods that allow Burris to get a brighter glass reticle than many of our competitors, but it will never be as bright. So, the 5204 is not as bright as the 5202.
2. The 5204 uses a green LED, where the 5202 uses a red LED. The human eye is more sensitive to green, so even at the same “brightness level” the green will appear brighter than the red. Now, this natural human response does not mean that the green reticle will make up for the difference in technology listed above, but I think the 5204 is pretty darn bright, but not quite “daylight bright” like the 5202 was.
3. The green LED in the 5204 is slightly more efficient. So, battery life should actually be a little bit better then the 5202. But I havenÂ’t measured the current draw at all settings to say how much battery life improvement we will get. I would guess around 50% more battery life.

[TWR]

I’ve heard both sides and for me, I see red better. But the main reason I ask about battery life is the MRO has a 5 year battery life for red and a 1 year battery life for green. I could deal with the green if battery life was the same but I sure wish this one came in red cause I like a mil based reticle and this scope looks interesting.

[Tokarev]

Not specific to LVPO but some good info none the less.

Interesting that he gives props to the Larue mount. I thought those were too 2019-ish to be serious.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YFNQbmVSAE

[Parf]

Not specific to LVPO but some good info none the less.

Interesting that he gives props to the Larue mount. I thought those were too 2019-ish to be serious.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YFNQbmVSAE

I like their LT-135 mount at 1.93 height, and only 7.7oz. I'm not going to comment on their QD return to zero, because I don't take my scope off. Usually in-stock, super lightweight, and way cheaper than a 1.93 Scalarworks, Unity, or Badger mount.

[jh9]

Interesting that he gives props to the Larue mount. I thought those were too 2019-ish to be serious.


To someone ignorant of the mount landscape what's 2019-ish about Larue? I thought those were generally the "6920" of mounts.

[Default.mp3]

To someone ignorant of the mount landscape what's 2019-ish about Larue? I thought those were generally the "6920" of mounts.The LaRues are known to cosmetically damage optics when mounted according to specs. They also have a tendency to move/walk on the rail they are mounted on; some will argue that this is simply user error, but given how often it happens, and how people talk about getting LaRue mounts on tight enough that they need leverage to pop the mount open for removal, doesn't seem like a great design these days. They're still perfectly serviceable, and I would never tell anyone to get rid of their LaRues, but they're not considered in the top tier of optic mounts these days.

I would go so far as to say LaRue was the hotness in 2009, and they were already considered quite long in tooth in 2019. 2019 was already when Geissele was starting to be seen as a bit old hat, with the advent of the Badger CROM and Scalarworks LEAP.

[Tokarev]

Strelok app now has the Steiner P4Xi G1 reticle:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210902/140d86c98d16634bf893566ab8d6fd95.jpg

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[SecondsCount]

Not specific to LVPO but some good info none the less.

Interesting that he gives props to the Larue mount. I thought those were too 2019-ish to be serious.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YFNQbmVSAE

I didn't watch the video but Todd has done a lot with LaRue over the years so it's not a big surprise if he endorsed them. I've been running an LT204 for over 10 years and while it has held up well, I much prefer ADM and Scalarworks these days.

[SecondsCount]

Inch vs mil adjustment. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/53118ab820905e3f07c8d0c908cce7da.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210819/6b20ad7b2ef1c20de9e7ff6d98398be0.jpg

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MIL and MOA are units that measure angle, not linear distance such as inches.

[Eric_L]

The LaRues are known to cosmetically damage optics when mounted according to specs. They also have a tendency to move/walk on the rail they are mounted on; some will argue that this is simply user error, but given how often it happens, and how people talk about getting LaRue mounts on tight enough that they need leverage to pop the mount open for removal, doesn't seem like a great design these days. They're still perfectly serviceable, and I would never tell anyone to get rid of their LaRues, but they're not considered in the top tier of optic mounts these days.

I would go so far as to say LaRue was the hotness in 2009, and they were already considered quite long in tooth in 2019. 2019 was already when Geissele was starting to be seen as a bit old hat, with the advent of the Badger CROM and Scalarworks LEAP.

They also were not (maybe now they are) adjustable for different rails- out of spec, whatever. Bobro and ADM are adjustable and very nice. I cannot buy any Larue after an epic thread on Sniper’s hide involving Larue himself and Frank -“Lowlight”, the owner, at the time, of Sniper’s hide…….

[OlongJohnson]

Not LPVO content, but I didn't really like how the LaRue Tactical Aimpoint Micro Mount LT660 has square sides on the channel to mate with the angled features on the Aimpoint. Went with Scalarworks instead.

[Tokarev]

MIL and MOA are units that measure angle, not linear distance such as inches.Let me go load some more bullets into my clips.

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[Ed L]

The LaRues are known to cosmetically damage optics when mounted according to specs. They also have a tendency to move/walk on the rail they are mounted on; some will argue that this is simply user error, but given how often it happens, and how people talk about getting LaRue mounts on tight enough that they need leverage to pop the mount open for removal, doesn't seem like a great design these days. They're still perfectly serviceable, and I would never tell anyone to get rid of their LaRues, but they're not considered in the top tier of optic mounts these days.

I would go so far as to say LaRue was the hotness in 2009, and they were already considered quite long in tooth in 2019. 2019 was already when Geissele was starting to be seen as a bit old hat, with the advent of the Badger CROM and Scalarworks LEAP.

Well, it looks like I have a mount or two to replace.

[Tokarev]

Here's something that looks pretty interesting. 1-8 with decent weight. Reticle seems fairly useful and FFP.

Questions are;

Is it daylight bright? Probably not. At least not as bright as most people expect.

Is the reticle so small at 1x (combined with relatively dim illumination) that it is basically worthless?

Does the reticle get so big at 8x that it obliterates targets?

https://www.accufiretech.com/product/product-title-6/

https://youtu.be/AzKtSQCnko4

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[Edster]

For what it's worth, I found a pretty good price on a Trijicon Credo 1-4. It arrived yesterday.

While there are offerings from other companies that offer more magnification or brighter dots, the Credo best matched what I wanted in a LPVO:


Durability, or at least not having forums filled with complaints about broken scopes
Etched illuminated reticle
Simple reticle with mil dots
Not too heavy
Not too expensive


The big question on the Credo seems to be "Is it daylight bright?" I took it out in my Texas backyard at noon. I had to set it on 10 to see the reticle illumination but I could definitely see it.

I suspect some of the "red dot-like" LPVOs could get quite a bit brighter. I'm pretty sure my Aimpoint dots can get to the same brightness and have a couple settings more to go.

I'm not sure it would be possible to get an illuminated reticle and achieve the same brightness as a dot at this price point. Aren't they very different approaches, technically speaking?

I should add that, even when the brightness of the illuminated reticle was set too low to be seen in full daylight, I could still see the normal reticle.

[sickeness]

The LaRues are known to cosmetically damage optics when mounted according to specs. They also have a tendency to move/walk on the rail they are mounted on; some will argue that this is simply user error, but given how often it happens, and how people talk about getting LaRue mounts on tight enough that they need leverage to pop the mount open for removal, doesn't seem like a great design these days. They're still perfectly serviceable, and I would never tell anyone to get rid of their LaRues, but they're not considered in the top tier of optic mounts these days.

I would go so far as to say LaRue was the hotness in 2009, and they were already considered quite long in tooth in 2019. 2019 was already when Geissele was starting to be seen as a bit old hat, with the advent of the Badger CROM and Scalarworks LEAP.

But neither the badger or the scalarworks are QD. Larue fills a different place in the market than those 2 mounts.

[rob_s]

But neither the badger or the scalarworks are QD. Larue fills a different place in the market than those 2 mounts.

Does the scalarworks not at least claim to be “QD”?
https://scalarworks.com/shop/quick-detach-mounts/leap-07/

And, I thought the world had mostly moved on from “gotta be able to rip the optic off my sniper rifle at a moment’s notice to be able to deal with threats danger close” kinda thing.

Not to mention, if you have to tighten the Larue levers down so tight that you need an external lever to pry them open, is it really still “QD”? :p

[TWR]

In the 20 plus years of using LaRue mounts, I’ve yet to need to rip off my scope in a hurry. I’ve also found that you don’t have to put them on quite as tight as Mark describes. Maybe he has weaker hands than mine? I have messed up the anodizing on one upper but one out of how many I’ve had, is not terrible.

What I have found is I can swap a scope to a red dot or just shoot irons and not worry about losing zero. I had gone to new mounts being ADM simply because they are cheaper and do the same thing without messing up a receiver. But I still have one old LaRue and it works just fine.

[sickeness]

Does the scalarworks not at least claim to be “QD”?
https://scalarworks.com/shop/quick-detach-mounts/leap-07/

And, I thought the world had mostly moved on from “gotta be able to rip the optic off my sniper rifle at a moment’s notice to be able to deal with threats danger close” kinda thing.

Not to mention, if you have to tighten the Larue levers down so tight that you need an external lever to pry them open, is it really still “QD”? :p

I'm good with that logic.
But I often see people with non-QD mounts with BUIS mounted underneath.
To quote/paraphrase Pressburg, you're shitting yourself if you think those BUIS have any real use if you have a tool mounted optic.

[Default.mp3]

But neither the badger or the scalarworks are QD. Larue fills a different place in the market than those 2 mounts.Depends on what you meant by "place in the market". I was talking more about "cool-guy mounts" rather than feature set, but for the latter, I would say you're mostly correct, though rob_s makes the same counterpoints I probably would have used.

[Wake27]

I'm good with that logic.
But I often see people with non-QD mounts with BUIS mounted underneath.
To quote/paraphrase Pressburg, you're shitting yourself if you think those BUIS have any real use if you have a tool mounted optic.

Chucks statements usually hit full home runs with me but this really depends on what you want the BUIS to do and why I moved back to having them with LPVOs. I have no expectation of ripping my badger mounts off in the middle of a fight, not even in a lull. But I do like that if I have the time and tool, I can remove the optic or as is more often the case, swap optics around and still have a capable gun. In the past 18 months it has typically taken me several weeks to a few months to rezero and I like the piece of mind that the gun is still usable even if the optic is not during that time.

Plus, you never know when the next crises will unfold and you wished you’d prepared better. BUIS is a small but important part of that to me.

These are also the reasons I don’t run offset BUIS. I have no intention of transitioning mid fight to them.

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[rob_s]

But I often see people with non-QD mounts with BUIS mounted underneath.
To quote/paraphrase Pressburg, you're shitting yourself if you think those BUIS have any real use if you have a tool mounted optic.


Chucks statements usually hit full home runs with me but this really depends on what you want the BUIS to do and why I moved back to having them with LPVOs. I have no expectation of ripping my badger mounts off in the middle of a fight, not even in a lull. But I do like that if I have the time and tool, I can remove the optic or as is more often the case, swap optics around and still have a capable gun.

Ironically, it’s the hobbiest, not the gunfighter, that is probably better served by irons under a magnified optic.

Ive packed up all my crap, loaded it in the car, driven to the range, unpacked, gotten set up or signed up for my shooting match, take the gun out, and find that my optic is damaged or otherwise non-functional. Would I rather get out my Allen wrench or whatever and remove the optic so I can still shoot, or do I just pack all that crap back up and go home? Even worse if it’s a class and I don’t have a backup upper/gun.

And, better to have too-mounted sights than offsets in that scenario as well.

[Default.mp3]

https://soldiersystems.net/2021/09/21/dsei-21-eotech-vudu-1-10x24-variable-power-optic/

Interested to see the specs of this thing. The Vudu line in general seems to be good on concepts, but somewhat lacking in execution, from my friends' experiences.

[Tokarev]

https://soldiersystems.net/2021/09/21/dsei-21-eotech-vudu-1-10x24-variable-power-optic/

Interested to see the specs of this thing. The Vudu line in general seems to be good on concepts, but somewhat lacking in execution, from my friends' experiences.Dang. Just came here to post a link. Too late!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Tank Boss]

Tried the LVPO gamut (1x6, 1x8 & 1x10). All lacked in the 1x role; FOV too limited & tube blocks off-axis views.
Running an EXPS and G45 now; better 1x & FOV up close, with good 5x performance for longish work.
HWS/RDS & magnifier is prolly all the AR platform needs. Even a magnifier is optional (really just a cool toy).
LVPO was a cool "hotness" experiment.

M2C

[Default.mp3]

Tried the LVPO gamut (1x6, 1x8 & 1x10). All lacked in the 1x role; FOV too limited & tube blocks off-axis views.
Running an EXPS and G45 now; better 1x & FOV up close, with good 5x performance for longish work.
HWS/RDS & magnifier is prolly all the AR platform needs. Even a magnifier is optional (really just a cool toy).
LVPO was a cool "hotness" experiment.

M2CLPVOs and RDS/HWS with magnifier are distinctly separate roles. While there is substantial overlap, they have very different strengths.

The LPVO will never be able to compete with an RDS/HWS when it comes to unmagnified use; you can pretty easily get just as fast when doing flat range stuff when using a quality LPVO, but factor in unorthodox shooting positions, i.e., barricade use, and it's unrealistic to expect anyone to practice enough to be just as fast with an LPVO. The LPVO also cannot be used for passive aiming under NODs.

On the flip side, LPVOs can provide much better reticles for use, and will also provide much better light transmission. This makes LPVOs much more versatile when used at range, and are also much more effective in low-light situations when not using NODs. Using my ATACR 1-8x, I was able to push my SR-25 all the way out to >1100 yards.

I would strongly argue that magnification and a useful reticle much extends the utility of an AR-15. These rifles are generally capable of <2 MOA accuracy when paired with appropriate ammo, why wouldn't we want to take advantage of that? Beyond that, as Chuck Pressburg has noted, the goal of having magnification on an AR isn't to try and take a headshot at 400 yards, it's to be able to hit that 2" of the target that's exposed while the rest is behind cover at 50 yards. I have both magnifiers and LPVOs on my rifles, and I see them as being used for very different roles. As the old saying goes, mission drives the gear train.

[Tank Boss]

I probably shoulda added that I run the Eotech & G45 on an 11.5" suppressed SBR. For that platform, I think the payoff is higher with an HWS/RDS, but that's just me.
If I ran a 16"-18" AR platform, I think I'd try something like the Vudu or Vortex PST II. Something in the 3-15x50 or 5-25x56ish range. I'd really like to give the Vudu a whirl.
My guess is that most rec-shooters don't spent much time in 1x. Just a guess. The really nice part of 3x or higher (mag or LVPO) is the PID capability.

BTW: does anyone have a take on the Trijicon Credo yet (1x8, I think)?

[Sanch]

Regarding the Vortex Razors - the newest 1 to 10 is the same weight, size, eye relief as the 1 to 6 previous gen.

Since we're talking about front focal plane, the size of the reticle will change as magnification changes. So I'm wondering, ignoring the cost difference in money terms, pretend you're getting it for free and the older gen 1 to 6 is cheaper. Might you prefer the 1 to 6 on a 5.56 gun that you dont intend to shoot more than 300 yards? And likely shoot between 50 and 100 yards most of the time?

Because if running at 10x you will have less field of view than 6x so at closer ranges, you probably dont want the high mag. You might even just want it at 3x.

But if running a FFP 10x optic, then the reticle will only be 1/3 as big when adjusted to 3x. But when running a 6x FFP optic, at 3x, the reticle is half as big, so you get more reticle, it's easier to see and use.

Does that make any sense or or is the new 1 to 10 always better, even for guns you dont intend to shoot from very far away assuming cost isn't an issue and weight/size is identical?

[Default.mp3]

Regarding the Vortex Razors - the newest 1 to 10 is the same weight, size, eye relief as the 1 to 6 previous gen.

Since we're talking about front focal plane, the size of the reticle will change as magnification changes. So I'm wondering, ignoring the cost difference in money terms, pretend you're getting it for free and the older gen 1 to 6 is cheaper. Might you prefer the 1 to 6 on a 5.56 gun that you dont intend to shoot more than 300 yards? And likely shoot between 50 and 100 yards most of the time?

Because if running at 10x you will have less field of view than 6x so at closer ranges, you probably dont want the high mag. You might even just want it at 3x.

But if running a FFP 10x optic, then the reticle will only be 1/3 as big when adjusted to 3x. But when running a 6x FFP optic, at 3x, the reticle is half as big, so you get more reticle, it's easier to see and use.

Does that make any sense or or is the new 1 to 10 always better, even for guns you dont intend to shoot from very far away assuming cost isn't an issue and weight/size is identical?Uh... the Razor 1-6x24 are all SFP, so I'm not seeing the point of your question, if I understand it correctly.

I haven't heard of anyone saying that they would rather take the Gen II-E over a Gen III, outside of folks that prefer SFP for their application. I know a couple of folks have said that for them, the Gen III was basically just a Gen II-E with some extra mag on top; while there are arguably better options than the Gen III (NF ATACR 1-8 especially with the new reticle, S&B Short Dots, Kahles 1-8, etc.), between the Gen II-E and Gen III, nothing I've heard would indicate that that the Gen II-E has any advantage outside of cost and possibly reticles/focal plane (with the latter being purely a personal choice).

[Sanch]

Uh... the Razor 1-6x24 are all SFP, so I'm not seeing the point of your question, if I understand it correctly.


Sorry I thought all three gens of razors were FFP

[Cheap Shot]

Regarding the Vortex Razors - the newest 1 to 10 is the same weight, size, eye relief as the 1 to 6 previous gen.

Since we're talking about front focal plane, the size of the reticle will change as magnification changes. So I'm wondering, ignoring the cost difference in money terms, pretend you're getting it for free and the older gen 1 to 6 is cheaper. Might you prefer the 1 to 6 on a 5.56 gun that you dont intend to shoot more than 300 yards? And likely shoot between 50 and 100 yards most of the time?

Because if running at 10x you will have less field of view than 6x so at closer ranges, you probably dont want the high mag. You might even just want it at 3x.

But if running a FFP 10x optic, then the reticle will only be 1/3 as big when adjusted to 3x. But when running a 6x FFP optic, at 3x, the reticle is half as big, so you get more reticle, it's easier to see and use.

Does that make any sense or or is the new 1 to 10 always better, even for guns you dont intend to shoot from very far away assuming cost isn't an issue and weight/size is identical?

I know Primary Arms makes 1 - 6, and 1 - 8 in both SPF and FFP. Not sure about 1 - 10. Is Sanches logic accurate?

[joshs]

Uh... the Razor 1-6x24 are all SFP, so I'm not seeing the point of your question, if I understand it correctly.

I haven't heard of anyone saying that they would rather take the Gen II-E over a Gen III, outside of folks that prefer SFP for their application. I know a couple of folks have said that for them, the Gen III was basically just a Gen II-E with some extra mag on top; while there are arguably better options than the Gen III (NF ATACR 1-8 especially with the new reticle, S&B Short Dots, Kahles 1-8, etc.), between the Gen II-E and Gen III, nothing I've heard would indicate that that the Gen II-E has any advantage outside of cost and possibly reticles/focal plane (with the latter being purely a personal choice).

I only looked through the Gen III when it came out at SHOT, but I didn’t think the image on 1x was as good as the Gen II. SupersetCA noted the same thing in the review of the Gen III.