“AK47” of PCCs? Is it Uzis?

[Sanch]

Every few years I get the PCC bug when I look at photos of the new hotness. And I get close to buying one and change my mind. Got close to buying a new Ruger PCC to use the glock mags I already have and the new magpul backpacker stock looks cool which I have for my 10/22 takedown.

But I don’t think I’ll buy it, when I look at what I want a PCC for, the only thing that makes sense, maybe, is an old school Uzi.

You see, I have no interest in using the PCC for competition, nor to shoot “cheaper” ammo for training/plinking (esp these days at 75 cents a round for 9mm), and I don’t want to keep it in my vehicle as a truck gun that can share mags with my CCW gun.

What I want and I recognize it’s stupid, is a bombproof gun that if the zombies come, I have a gun that I know works and can use the thousands of rounds of 9mm ball ammo I keep on hand for glock practice. The first PCC I wanted was the old keltec sub something first model and it had reliability concerns. Then I wanted an MP5 which was supposedly reliable but very expensive at the time ($3k+ back in 2005 or so for a custom built civilian one) And mags were $80 each.

The Skorpion or whatever CZ thing looks interesting but seems like a lot of plastic, because it’s meant to be a backpack gun.

Well, while it’s stupid, I want a carbine that if aliens invade, and if I grab the contents of my gun safe and throw them into the back of a pickup truck with no padding, because I’m out running the mushroom cloud, it will still go pew pew. Stupid, LARPing fantasy but I have no real “need” for a PCC, and this is the closest rationale that makes sense to me to own one.

I was always hesitant to buy an uzi back in the day because I didn’t want to deal with stockpiling yet another set of mags, but screw it. Give me an uzi and 7 30-round mags for long turn zombie hunting, maybe 2 more mags for training so I don’t wear the feed lips or springs on my 7 duty loadout, and I think I’d be happy.

But maybe UZis are crap. So I’m asking the forum, if I have the money to spend on this ridiculous idea of a bombproof PCC that runs 9mm and I can drop it off the roof onto concrete and bury in mud and it will still run, what gun do I buy, and which exact model? What accessories? Ideally no forearm brace pistol thing because I give it good odds those go away and I don’t want this hobby silly gun to turn into a hassle. I’m not trying to hide it in a bag or under a jacket, that’s what my 300 black SBR AR is for. This is purely a “oh crap, I’m out of rifle ammo, somehow i shot through the few thousand rounds of that, and I didn’t die, so I need a new primary long gun that’s 9mm”

The common sense answer is to use this money towards more rifle ammo so I don’t get to the position of having to resort to 9mm ball. But none of this fantasy makes sense and in a few months, it may be impossible to buy a PCC and “high cap” mags so FOMO is involved with LARPing fantasy and fears of hyperinflation where my money won’t be worth much in the future.

[Glock26]

Have you looked into a CAA Roni? Literally turn your existing Glock into a PCC. Plus it's roughly $250 so it won't break the bank.

[HCM]

Have you looked into a CAA Roni? Literally turn your existing Glock into a PCC. Plus it's roughly $250 so it won't break the bank.

You forgot the smiley / sarcasm.

Ronis are crap.

[CleverNickname]

Have you looked into a CAA Roni? Literally turn your existing Glock into a PCC. Plus it's roughly $250 so it won't break the bank.
The only thing a Roni is good for is if you're in Israel and so you're limited to owning one handgun, and turning it into a PCC is the only way to get a PCC.

Back to the OP's question, Uzis are pretty durable, but sort of clunky. 16" barrels look like Pinnochio, the triggers are pretty bad, optics aren't very easy to mount, and the folding stocks look cool but suck to actually shoot. I'd go with a 9mm AR15 over an Uzi any day.

If you literally want the AK47 of 9mm PCCs, you could always just get an AK47. https://palmettostatearmory.com/ak-v.html

[Glock26]

You forgot the smiley / sarcasm.

Ronis are crap.



The only thing a Roni is good for is if you're in Israel and so you're limited to owning one handgun, and turning it into a PCC is the only way to get a PCC.


Serious question, why are they crap? I'm currently in the process of SBR paperwork for one of my Glock 26 to compete in USPSA PCC. I have a JP GMR-15 as a backup.

I do have concerns over the polymer charging handle wearing out over time, but I feel as though the additional points of contact aids in shot stability. The only other criticisms that I've encountered stemmed from people not locking in the pistol correctly. In terms of ergonomics and the "feel of a rifle", it ain't half bad. To be fair, I'm completely new to the rifle world and would love to hear about the shortfalls of such a platform.

[HCM]

Serious question, why are they crap? I'm currently in the process of SBR paperwork for one of my Glock 26 to compete in USPSA PCC. I have a JP GMR-15 as a backup.

I do have concerns over the polymer charging handle wearing out over time, but I feel as though the additional points of contact aids in shot stability. The only other criticisms that I've encountered stemmed from people not locking in the pistol correctly. In terms of ergonomics and the "feel of a rifle", it ain't half bad. To be fair, I'm completely new to the rifle world and would love to hear about the shortfalls of such a platform.

Reliability issues and they don’t hold zero.

Are you serious comparing a G26 in a Roni chassis to a JP GMR-15 ?

If you want to SBR a Glock the Roni is the worst way to do it.

[HCM]

The only thing a Roni is good for is if you're in Israel and so you're limited to owning one handgun, and turning it into a PCC is the only way to get a PCC.

Back to the OP's question, Uzis are pretty durable, but sort of clunky. 16" barrels look like Pinnochio, the triggers are pretty bad, optics aren't very easy to mount, and the folding stocks look cool but suck to actually shoot. I'd go with a 9mm AR15 over an Uzi any day.

If you literally want the AK47 of 9mm PCCs, you could always just get an AK47. https://palmettostatearmory.com/ak-v.html

9mm ARs, at least the blowback ones, which is most of them, literally beat themselves to death.

The closest thing to what the OP asked for is an MP5 clone.

[El Cid]

Super reliable. And takes Glock mags. The answer is easy to me but not inexpensive.

B&T APC9 PRO.

https://tarheelstatefirearms.com/store/index.php?route=product/search&search=b%26T

Bad news in addition to price is finding one in stock. The websites above seems to get them regularly.
You can also find them new with the Glock lower. I had to but my Glock lower separately.

[Greg Bell]

Uzis are pretty durable, but sort of clunky. 16" barrels look like Pinnochio, the triggers are pretty bad, optics aren't very easy to mount, and the folding stocks look cool but suck to actually shoot. I'd go with a 9mm AR15 over an Uzi any day.

Clunky (agreed, especially grip safety)

16 inch barrels...meh, that's just looks

Triggers are bad. Agree, especially when compared to what can be done with AR (irrelevant to it's intended roll as anti-nazi bullet hose)

Optics aren't easy to mount. Definitely compared to AR. I had an RMR plate installed, so it is doable.

Folding stock. You know what, it really isn't bad. I bought a wooden stock for mine but I discovered the folding stock is actually fine. And it folds away and makes it very handy to carry strapped close to the body.

Where the UZI really shines is in controllability in full auto fire. It isn't quite MP-5 good, but it is close enough to make you check. Crazy for a blowback but that telescoping bolt and reasonable rate of fire really works together nicely.

[GJM]

Serious question, why are they crap? I'm currently in the process of SBR paperwork for one of my Glock 26 to compete in USPSA PCC. I have a JP GMR-15 as a backup.

I do have concerns over the polymer charging handle wearing out over time, but I feel as though the additional points of contact aids in shot stability. The only other criticisms that I've encountered stemmed from people not locking in the pistol correctly. In terms of ergonomics and the "feel of a rifle", it ain't half bad. To be fair, I'm completely new to the rifle world and would love to hear about the shortfalls of such a platform.


Reliability issues and they don’t hold zero.

Are you serious comparing a G26 in a Roni chassis to a JP GMR-15 ?

If you want to SBR a Glock the Roni is the worst way to do it.

I had a Roni and it would not hold zero, such that I always shot better at 25 yards with my 19 with iron sights than with the Roni and a red dot.

I am assuming Glock26 is “C Class for Life” from Enos. Those that don’t know, he made GM in CO in his first year, shooting a G26. If so, welcome to the forum, and look forward to more of your posts!

[HCM]

Super reliable. And takes Glock mags. The answer is easy to me but not inexpensive.

B&T APC9 PRO.

https://tarheelstatefirearms.com/store/index.php?route=product/search&search=b%26T

Bad news in addition to price is finding one in stock. The websites above seems to get them regularly.
You can also find them new with the Glock lower. I had to but my Glock lower separately.

The B&T is a great gun though in the OP’s end of the world scenario you would need to have some spare buffers to keep it going.

Personally I think the ability to use two of the most common pistol mags (Glock and SIG) makes it worth simply keeping a spare buffer or two

[Lester Polfus]

IMI sells the UZI Pro pistol in the US. It has a rail for an optic, a rail for a light, and you can buy it with a folding "brace."

I'm not saying it's a good idea, I'm just saying if I were going to buy into an UZI platform, I'd do that, instead of a Century clone...

[Bergeron]

I had a Roni and it would not hold zero, such that I always shot better at 25 yards with my 19 with iron sights than with the Roni and a red dot.




Reliability issues and they don’t hold zero.



Oooof. I was wondering about zero and Ronis, and that's sort of feedback that I trust. I'm planning on a CMMG MKGs in 9mm as 16" gun for PCC. I see that JP has announced a new 9mm AR-style carbine that is apparently roller-delayed in similar fashion to a MP5. If I had to have a bombproof and small PCC, I would look to a SP5/HK clone, but I would also consider that JP, assuming it works and I had the dollars.

[JCN]

Every few years I get the PCC bug when I look at photos of the new hotness. And I get close to buying one and change my mind. Got close to buying a new Ruger PCC to use the glock mags I already have and the new magpul backpacker stock looks cool which I have for my 10/22 takedown.

But I don’t think I’ll buy it, when I look at what I want a PCC for, the only thing that makes sense, maybe, is an old school Uzi.

You see, I have no interest in using the PCC for competition, nor to shoot “cheaper” ammo for training/plinking (esp these days at 75 cents a round for 9mm), and I don’t want to keep it in my vehicle as a truck gun that can share mags with my CCW gun.

Question for you... are you looking for 16" carbine? Or talking about PCC as in something two handed that takes pistol caliber?

Kriss Vectors take Glock mags...

So do TNW Aero Rifles / Pistols if you like the bug-out fantasy thing. They take Glock mags.

Also JR Carbines have takedown models and take Glock mags.

I may or may not own all of the above. :)

[rcbusmc24]

67606

I have all of the above SBR'd except for the B&T GHM9, that one isn't worth the expense, the gun itself is awesome but the stock piece that would replace the tailhook costs 600 bucks plus the cost of the stamp and would do nothing better than the tailhook is already. Even if "pistols" go away I'd just pay the tax and keep the tailhook in place. I have tried to like 9mm subguns that take glock mags but just can't, the angle to feed in the gun is just weird for me and since I 1911 or Beretta most of the times anyway it wouldn't make much difference to me personally. I also always feel like I'm fighting the gun on the reloads much more with glock mags than anything else as well, might just be me though... I like the UZI, and the mags are relatively affordable, but you know what's cheaper? Those 9mm AR mags from C products that I use in the CMMG MK9 AR... Those things I can find at most of the gun shops in town and they only cost me 19.99 each if I'm paying full boat. Same manual of arms as my other AR's as well. Obviously the MP-5's are the coolest looking but as you noted expensive and mags are spendy. UMP clone is a toy, fun but probably the last of the bunch I would grab out of the safe for real use. The UZI is a brick, the trigger is the worst of the bunch and the grip safety can be annoying,but the gun always go's bang when I pull the trigger....and at least for now, spare parts are affordable and pretty available.... Mine is a Action Arms/ IMI, I'm not really up on the domestic manufacture ones, though I do have a few buddies with parts kits builds that seem to run well, including two SOT registered full auto's.

[Joe in PNG]

I'll throw in and say that the "AK" of PCC's is the H&K MP5, and as others have pointed out, it's not a cheap proposition.

However, Uzi's aren't cheap either, so you'd be in about the same price range either way.

I just went with the Evo myself, and have had a ball shooting it. Since I don't own any Glocks, I'm not exactly worried about compatibility. Plus, there's a fair amount of aftermarket support from Magpul, Apex, SB, and others.

[HCM]

I'll throw in and say that the "AK" of PCC's is the H&K MP5, and as others have pointed out, it's not a cheap proposition.

However, Uzi's aren't cheap either, so you'd be in about the same price range either way.

I just went with the Evo myself, and have had a ball shooting it. Since I don't own any Glocks, I'm not exactly worried about compatibility. Plus, there's a fair amount of aftermarket support from Magpul, Apex, SB, and others.

The Scorpion is a prolific and reliable SMG - the only downside IME is the ergonomics (especially grip and safety) suck but are easily fixed. It’s direct blowback so it’s a little snappy but should last as long as a blow back 9mm AR.

[Sanch]

Thanks for replies so far. Some replies:

I’m not married to using glock mags. I used to want to, but I think some heavy duty steel mags would serve the purpose better.

I am looking for a 16” carbine. Not a pistol with a wrist brace. I know it will look stupid.

The MP5 is interesting. I saw H&K did put out a civilian something recently, but looks like a pistol braced MP5.

You guys gave me an idea of an HK 94. Which I think is essentially a 16” full stock MP5 I think. But maybe not, maybe it’s more of a 9mm G3/HK91? It’s been a while since I dug into that world. I recall one concern of the Hk91 being maybe no bolt open on last round?

The 9mm AK is interesting. It’s literally the 9mm PCC AK I asked for, but because it’s not made in a ComBloc country, and because it’s a different caliber and shaped mag than any of the two actual AK rounds, i a, skeptical it will be the same AK reliability as an AK74/47.

I really want a 7 to 8 pound steel rifle with fixed stock and 16” barrel that I can put an aimpoint micro on, that runs 30 round 9mm mags and does so super reliably. I know it’s absurd.

[El Cid]

The B&T is a great gun though in the OP’s end of the world scenario you would need to have some spare buffers to keep it going.

Personally I think the ability to use two of the most common pistol mags (Glock and SIG) makes it worth simply keeping a spare buffer or two

And since this is P-F there is an option that takes Beretta 92 mags.

https://www.wilsoncombat.com/ar9-pistol/

https://www.wilsoncombat.com/ar9-carbine/

[Joe in PNG]

The 9mm AK is interesting. It’s literally the 9mm PCC AK I asked for, but because it’s not made in a ComBloc country, and because it’s a different caliber and shaped mag than any of the two actual AK rounds, i a, skeptical it will be the same AK reliability as an AK74/47.

I really want a 7 to 8 pound steel rifle with fixed stock and 16” barrel that I can put an aimpoint micro on, that runs 30 round 9mm mags and does so super reliably. I know it’s absurd.

The Kalashnikov KR9 (https://kalashnikov-usa.com/firearms/kr-9-rifle/) may be the thing you are looking for. For one, it has the Gun Jesus Stamp of Approval.

Note that it is a straight blowback gun with a slightly shortened receiver to run the shorter 9mm.

[S Jenks]

I know you want a 16” barrel but this might be a good place to put this, for anyone in the future looking to buy one.

I just picked up an Uzi Pro from my FFL yesterday. The plan is to add a Custom Smith Mfg. shroud, extended threaded barrel, red dot, light and upgraded brace of some sort. A fun range toy for when my suppressor stamp is approved and 9mm is cheap again.

Yes they’re unwieldy and outdated and not a Rattler but with the possibility of this stuff being blocked from import, I figured now is as good a time as any. My MP5 clone is a better firearm in almost every aspect, but what the hell. YOLO and all that.

I ordered the version without brace as I wanted to add a Title II Arms collapsible brace instead, and figured I could save a buck and not have to toss the factory brace. The factory brace appears functional but just looks...ugh. It’s so 2012, aka too clunky for such a small package. So before the gun came in I purchase the Title II Arms brace with Mod 1C Tailhook, found here http://www.titleiiarms.com/UZI_PRO_PDW_BRACE.html

Here’s a crappy cellphone pic for reference:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210215/a842154cc09ae540ba3f5428384f5316.jpg

The Title II brace appears to be well built. It’s not quite as smooth as say an MPX collapsing brace but it’s sturdy and will get the job done.

This brace is supposed to fit into a dovetail on the rear of the receiver, and is secured with two roll pins. Here’s a screengrab showing what I’m talking about-

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210215/96470ee2413606ddb80510beebfcfc93.jpg

If you notice on my gun, the rear of the receiver is just bare. No dovetail, no roll pin holes. Just folded and welded sheet metal. Upon closer inspection it appears I have a very low serial numbered gun, in the 400’s. That could explain why it arrived from Arms Unlimited without a box or manual, only one mag, etc.

It looks like the factory adapter is a plate that is welded to the rear of the receiver but can’t tell for sure, so if anyone has any insight into this, or knows of how I could get one, I’d love to know. I have an email in to IWI.

My other option is to simply weld a section of pic rail to the rear of the receiver and install a Sig type brace. If I go that route, I’d have to sell the Title II brace as it’s too large a dovetail for the pic rail.

Long story short- If you’re buying an Uzi Pro and want it braced/sbr’d, make sure it has the adapter plate from the factory.

[Nephrology]

Tagged for interest. I just got my first suppressor (octane 45HD) and I think I'd be much happier with it if I had a 9mm PCC vs. mounting it on a handgun. Also have a lot more 9mm than I do 5.56 in my stash so interested in what's out there.

Had previously been considering a foxtrot mike AR9 as they seemed like a reasonable deal but generally turned off by the nature of the AR9 gas system. Would love something that took Glock mags, though...

[314159]

Why is it everyone forgets the Beretta CX-4 exists?

Uses PX-4/B-92 mags in 9/40 and has been adopted by a few large organizations (in its select fire variant). My experience has been positive but I can't say I've done a 2000 round test either. Very easy optics/lights mounting and fairly light (compared to the Uzi in particular).

They're difficult but not impossible to find.

[Default.mp3]

I remain convinced that a CZ Evo is the easy button for PCCs if you're not willing to spend B&T or H&K money. It's got dead simple operating mechanism, lots of aftermarket support, and a fairly low price point, while being made by Colt now (amirite). The whole polymer vs. metal thing is fucking stupid, IMO, particularly if you're talking about magazines, since that's just as much a design issue as a material issue (e.g., I'd pick a Magpul PMAG GEN M3 over any steel AR mag any day of the week for long term use).

For more pistol-based designs, maybe check out the B&T USW for Glocks and the FLUX Defense MP17 for P320s.

[olstyn]

Had previously been considering a foxtrot mike AR9 as they seemed like a reasonable deal but generally turned off by the nature of the AR9 gas system. Would love something that took Glock mags, though...

I keep coming back to wanting a CMMG RDB 9mm AR. Supposedly they're a lot smoother in operation than the standard/basic blowback ones, and they can be had with Glock mags. The concept of mag compatibility with existing pistols keeps making me wish there was a PPQ M1 mag version so it could share my existing P99/PPQ mags, along with 35-ish round PPQ mags (hey, a guy can dream), but I could probably settle for a Glock mag one and be reasonably happy anyway.

They're backordered into forever every time I look, though.

[Sanch]

I've been digging a bit deeper into this.

I looked into the HK94 because on the surface it seemed like it met my requirements but even if they weren't so crazy expensive, it looks like they have a button mag release, instead of the lever release? Is that true for all of them? Anyway around that?

My dream gun is a 16" barrel MP5 with fixed stock and lever mag release. Could I pay a customizer to build something like that? For less than $10k that is, haha because I know the HK parts are always crazy expensive. And also in less than a 5 year wait period to have some big name gunsmith put it together who has a big backlog?

Is it legal to convert a pistol to a rifle? I think not, I remember hearing "once a pistol, always a pistol" but the newerish civilian MP5s (SP5 I think?) look perfect if I could put a 16" barrel and a fixed stock on it. But maybe I had it backwards, and it's "once a rifle, always a rifle" in that you can't take an AR lower that's once been a rifle, and then make it into a pistol? Maybe you can turn a pistol into a rifle? And if so... that SP5 seems like the answer for me, assuming it's compatible with fixed MP5 buttstocks, and there's some kind of 16" barrel available. Although I'm guessing neither of those is true.

If the only option is dropping $10k and waiting years for a gunsmith to put it together, then I guess buying an SP5 and Form 1 to put a fixed buttstock would be the answer. I just didn't want to deal with the ATF anymore. Already have some NFA stuff, pre-photo/print requirement and I've been avoiding that, mostly due to the hassle. Also I'd prefer not to need to notify ATF for interstate travel.

Or maybe I do just get a Ruger PCC that can run my existing Glock Mags? The whole idea is kind of stupid, but I'm still obsessed with having a 16" PCC with fixed stock that is bomb proof and can run 9mm like a champ. But with Glock or AK quality.

It does seem like the PCC market today is focused on two groups: People scared of Anti-Fa would want a compact bag gun. And people who want to compete. And I'm neither of those markets. And for good reason, my idea is admittently ridiculous.

[HCM]

I've been digging a bit deeper into this.

I looked into the HK94 because on the surface it seemed like it met my requirements but even if they weren't so crazy expensive, it looks like they have a button mag release, instead of the lever release? Is that true for all of them? Anyway around that?

My dream gun is a 16" barrel MP5 with fixed stock and lever mag release. Could I pay a customizer to build something like that? For less than $10k that is, haha because I know the HK parts are always crazy expensive. And also in less than a 5 year wait period to have some big name gunsmith put it together who has a big backlog?

Is it legal to convert a pistol to a rifle? I think not, I remember hearing "once a pistol, always a pistol" but the newerish civilian MP5s (SP5 I think?) look perfect if I could put a 16" barrel and a fixed stock on it. But maybe I had it backwards, and it's "once a rifle, always a rifle" in that you can't take an AR lower that's once been a rifle, and then make it into a pistol? Maybe you can turn a pistol into a rifle? And if so... that SP5 seems like the answer for me, assuming it's compatible with fixed MP5 buttstocks, and there's some kind of 16" barrel available. Although I'm guessing neither of those is true.

If the only option is dropping $10k and waiting years for a gunsmith to put it together, then I guess buying an SP5 and Form 1 to put a fixed buttstock would be the answer. I just didn't want to deal with the ATF anymore. Already have some NFA stuff, pre-photo/print requirement and I've been avoiding that, mostly due to the hassle. Also I'd prefer not to need to notify ATF for interstate travel.

Or maybe I do just get a Ruger PCC that can run my existing Glock Mags? The whole idea is kind of stupid, but I'm still obsessed with having a 16" PCC with fixed stock that is bomb proof and can run 9mm like a champ. But with Glock or AK quality.

It does seem like the PCC market today is focused on two groups: People scared of Anti-Fa would want a compact bag gun. And people who want to compete. And I'm neither of those markets. And for good reason, my idea is admittently ridiculous.

Due to current US Import reg most of the foreign MP5 clones come in as pistols.

If you want an MP5 pattern 16” carbine without paying pre van HK94 Prices look at PTR.

PTR has been making quality roller lock guns in 7.62 for years. I’ve seen nothing to make me think their 9mm guns are not the equal of their G3 clones.

[rcbusmc24]

I had a PTR9 for a bit, sold it to a buddy when I picked up my HK SP5.... I thought it was perfectly fine as a clone and it had no issues running. I kept the Zenith I also own over it honestly just because it had a stamp on it already and I had not registered the PTR, it was still set up as a pistol. My buddy who has it, is still running it with the SB collapsible brace that I had installed on it and has no intentions of changing it out. If you buy one of these as a pistol then you can always have a long false suppressor or barrel shroud permanently attached to the barrel to bring the length out to 16.1 inches and then attach a stock. I did this with a Zenith Z43 (5.56) pistol that originally came with a 13.7 inch barrel in pistol form from overseas. I ordered up a extended flash hider from HKparts.net and had it pinned, then added a MP5 collapsible stock, so it is doable, if not very cost efficient.... See the link below for a example...

https://hkparts.net/product/urbach-style-8-fluted-barrel-extension-1-2-x-28-p1942.htm

[RevolverRob]

Full size UZIs generally aren't reliable with 115-grain ball. The weight of the telescoping bolt makes them want HOT ammo.

The correct answer is as Joe in PNG said the MP5 and well made clones of that platform.

If I had to walk into some PD or MIL armory and pick a gun off the rack to go fight with and one of the choices was an MP5, that's what I would pick.

[Joe in PNG]

If you want a cheap way to scratch your Uzi itch, a Walther .22lr clone is a cheap way to have fun for a couple of range trips, then realize you don't really like the ergos.