How to turn a 44 Mag into a 45 ACP!

[Lost River]

Or "The little Communist that Could!"


Before the .44 mag, the was the Special. Most know that, but before that, there was the Russian.

Without going into a bunch of details that anyone can look up on Wiki or wherever, the Russian is a fantastic way to make .44 Mags (or .44 Specials) into very fun target/plinking guns. It is about like sticking a 230 grain .45 ACP into the cylinder. Very close ballistics wise, to the point that only the self appointed SME/nit pickers would bother to start in with the "Well akshully" BS.

A side by side of some 230 grain round nose 45 ACPs and 240 grain round nose 44 Russians:



https://i.imgur.com/GyIvcAU.jpg

Compared to Special and Magnum:


https://i.imgur.com/FvLQOqW.jpg?1

[Lost River]

Fairly accurate side too:

These were shot over my hood, not exactly a bench rest....

25 yards.


https://i.imgur.com/yCj18w5.jpg?1


The Russian makes for killer little full wadcutter loads.

https://i.imgur.com/u5lSB2Y.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oolp87A.jpg?2

For punching paper or for in the home, or for small/medium game.

A great way to make a Model 29 even more versatile.

They also make the Model 329 Scandium actually FUN to shoot, which I cannot say too often.

:)

[revchuck38]

What's the weight on those wadcutters?

[Lost River]

They are 180 grains.

[BehindBlueI's]

F
The Russian makes for killer little full wadcutter loads.


Oooh. I'm intrigued.

[Lost River]

As soon as I load up a bucket load of the round nose lead loads, (I have a few 30 caliber ammo cans full of projectiles) for a couple people who have asked for some plinking ammo, I am going to use the funds to buy some 240 grain semi wadcutters and load those. The Russians have turned out to be pretty popular locally with some guys ( and gals).

I have had a few Model 25-2s and a couple Model 625 .45 ACP revolvers, and the recoil is very comparable. Loads of fun.

If I ever get some free time for a Jackrabbit Safari, I'd like to clobber a couple just for kicks with the Communist rounds!:cool:

[Lost River]

Oooh. I'm intrigued.

I will probably sneak out for a bit tomorrow or Monday and shoot a few paper targets and report back. :cool:

[Lost River]

This gun makes you feel like you are cheating when you stick the stubby little things in the cylinder and touch the amazing trigger.

https://i.imgur.com/eVSt8Au.jpg

[Lester Polfus]

One of the things I like about Magnum revolvers is you can go from bunny/grouse killin’ rounds to elk killin’ rounds in seconds.

[okie john]

What's the charge? I'm guessing 4-5 grains of Unique or a bit less 231.


Okie John

[BobM]

Is there load data out there? I think I have an old Lyman manual that was my grandpa’s, I’ll check if I can find it.

[lee n. field]

Is there load data out there? I think I have an old Lyman manual that was my grandpa’s, I’ll check if I can find it.

For any particular bullet? There's a couple pages of .44 Russian load data in my copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.

[Lost River]

What's the charge? I'm guessing 4-5 grains of Unique or a bit less 231.


Okie John

I am actually using Titegroup.

The book load stated a max load of 4.2 for 837 FPS with a 240, but that was not even remotely accurate (in terms of actual velocity).

Like normal, I started low and worked up.

I chronographed a few revolvers.
speeds as follows:
4.6 grains

6" revolver 800 FPS
5" revolver 785 FPS
4" revolver 750 FPS

I found that the faster you drive it, the better it shot, accuracy wise, but my goal was for a soft shooting load, so I stuck to a mild load.

It would be very easy to up the velocity, and I probably will with the SWCs and the full wadcutters, just for kicks.

[Lost River]

Is there load data out there? I think I have an old Lyman manual that was my grandpa’s, I’ll check if I can find it.

There is data out there, but one has to remember that it is geared towards old/antique guns actually chambered in .44 Russian.

I am using modern brass that is the exact same brass as .44 mag and .44 Special. It is just cut at different lengths, so it is very strong. In reality I could drive a 240 at 900+ FPS with no problem if I wanted to. The problem is that you don't want someone to put such a load into an old S&W Model 3 and blow the thing up and injure themselves.:rolleyes:

[revchuck38]

Is there load data out there? I think I have an old Lyman manual that was my grandpa’s, I’ll check if I can find it.

From Lyman #40:

.44 Russian:
#429106 (175-grain RNL) 3.0 grains Bullseye/800 fps; 7.0 grains Unique/1100 fps
#429251 (253-grain RNL) 3.0 grains Bullseye/630 fps; 6.0 grains Unique/800 fps

.44 Special:
#429348 (175-grain WC) 6.8 grains Bullseye/1055 fps; 10.3 grains Unique/1170 fps
#429421 (245-grain SWC) 4.9 grains Bullseye/805 fps; 7.8 grains Unique/970 fps

[Trooper224]

Actually, wouldn't that be the little Czarist that could?

[Oldherkpilot]

Fairly accurate side too:

These were shot over my hood, not exactly a bench rest....

25 yards.


https://i.imgur.com/yCj18w5.jpg?1


The Russian makes for killer little full wadcutter loads.

https://i.imgur.com/u5lSB2Y.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oolp87A.jpg?2

For punching paper or for in the home, or for small/medium game.

A great way to make a Model 29 even more versatile.

They also make the Model 329 Scandium actually FUN to shoot, which I cannot say too often.

:)

Love the stocks on your 29. Are they Ropers?

[Lost River]

Yep, Herretts:cool:

[Lost River]

Actually, wouldn't that be the little Czarist that could?

Well played Sir,

Too bad I sold my 8" .44 Anaconda a few years back when the prices went nuts for them.

With CZ buying Colt, it would be a perfect opportunity for all manner of terrible one liners. Blue would have a field day!:cool:

[awp_101]

The Russian makes for killer little full wadcutter loads.

https://i.imgur.com/u5lSB2Y.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oolp87A.jpg?2
Hmmm, this just made my little Rossi 720 perk up with interest...

[Wheeler]

There is data out there, but one has to remember that it is geared towards old/antique guns actually chambered in .44 Russian.

I am using modern brass that is the exact same brass as .44 mag and .44 Special. It is just cut at different lengths, so it is very strong. In reality I could drive a 240 at 900+ FPS with no problem if I wanted to. The problem is that you don't want someone to put such a load into an old S&W Model 3 and blow the thing up and injure themselves.:rolleyes:

Is there a source for new .44 Russian brass? Starline maybe?

[mtnbkr]

While I love this kind of stuff (as my hands get older, I've come to appreciate slow speed, low pressure big bore stuff, why not just use Trail Boss powder with your 44mag brass? If I recall correctly, my mid-level TB loads with a 250gr SWC are running about the same velocity as your 44 Russian loads. I could go lighter or heavier with that powder and bullet combination.

Though, Trail Boss powder is probably less available than 44 Russian brass these days. :rolleyes:

Chris

[BobM]

While I love this kind of stuff (as my hands get older, I've come to appreciate slow speed, low pressure big bore stuff, why not just use Trail Boss powder with your 44mag brass? If I recall correctly, my mid-level TB loads with a 250gr SWC are running about the same velocity as your 44 Russian loads. I could go lighter or heavier with that powder and bullet combination.

Though, Trail Boss powder is probably less available than 44 Russian brass these days. :rolleyes:

Chris

I like the idea of being able to know what the load is just by looking at it. Sometimes labels come off or become unreadable. Using different bullets also accomplishes this but I mostly stock 240 grain XTPs and 240 grain cast bullets for my 44s.

[mtnbkr]

I like the idea of being able to know what the load is just by looking at it. Sometimes labels come off or become unreadable. Using different bullets also accomplishes this but I mostly stock 240 grain XTPs and 240 grain cast bullets for my 44s.

That's a very good point. I use the same bullet for all my loads (it's the only 44cal mould I own). I have used colored sharpie markers to mark my brass, though mainly for keeping different test loads separate in the same box.

Chris

[Oldherkpilot]

Is there a source for new .44 Russian brass? Starline maybe?

I just ordered 500 pieces from Starline. It felt strange because the item was IN STOCK!😁 This is gonna cost me some money but I need a new softie load for my .44s. Many thanks to the OP!

[Lost River]

Is there a source for new .44 Russian brass? Starline maybe?


While I love this kind of stuff (as my hands get older, I've come to appreciate slow speed, low pressure big bore stuff, why not just use Trail Boss powder with your 44mag brass? If I recall correctly, my mid-level TB loads with a 250gr SWC are running about the same velocity as your 44 Russian loads. I could go lighter or heavier with that powder and bullet combination.

Though, Trail Boss powder is probably less available than 44 Russian brass these days. :rolleyes:

Chris

Yes Starline has some last I checked.

I am loading a bunch to sell to people locally* and I had the Titegroup on hand. Powder is incredibly hard to get, just like primers, and most new brass.

* I have a class 7 manufacturing license but don't really discuss it here as I have not advertised here. Plus I manufacture on such a small scale that I really don't want to put out a big ad online as I could not keep up with demand for stuff due to the current crazy ammo shortages.

If I had Trail Boss in large quantities I might try that but I think I have less than 2 pounds of the stuff.

Covid shutting down everything, including my work and my kids schools forced me to have to rethink what to do to pay the bills. I have been loading ammo for about 30 years, so my "side business idea" became a full time gig. Plus it gives me an excuse to travel less, be home for the kids each day, and play with guns that I actually like instead of issued type weapons. M29s are more fun than Glocks for me. :cool:

Now if I could only find a large source of primers....:rolleyes:

[Lost River]

A while back a buddy who has been cast since the Middle Ages and is one of my Go-To guys for all manner of questions on cast bullets, reloading, .38 Supers, and other subjects, sent me out a few hundred of these.

https://i.imgur.com/No20WgH.jpg?1


They are about 165 grains.

Without changing any settings on my press from the 240 grain round nose load, I loaded up a handful. They mushed the noses flat a little bit, but the seating depth was not bad. I am planning on shooting them to see what kind of accuracy I get, as well as velocity, just for kicks.

https://i.imgur.com/CGrvVAT.jpg?1

Funny looking little things. :D

[Rick R]

Oh great!
Now I want to order some brass and load up some Russian Imperial Stumpy ammo for my Mountain Gun.
Any idea how they feed in an 1894 Marlin with an appropriate bullet profile?

[Lost River]

Oh great!
Now I want to order some brass and load up some Russian Imperial Stumpy ammo for my Mountain Gun.
Any idea how they feed in an 1894 Marlin with an appropriate bullet profile?

I tried for just a minute to load some round nose into my 16" 1894 .44 and they did not feed worth a dang. Maybe if a guy fiddled with the OAL a bit, but the load I am loading right now is a NO-GO. I might look at it again with some SWCs after a bit though.

[Rick R]

Are you using .44 Mag/Spl dies or something else?

[Lost River]

Are you using .44 Mag/Spl dies or something else?

Specifically 44 Russian Dies by Lee, and then a Lee Roll crimp die. The roll crimp die is good for mag, special and Russian.

[SeriousStudent]

Gosh, this is just so cool. Every time I read one of Lost River's threads, my Grinch heart grows three sizes. :)

[Irelander]

This is a great thread, since I just bought a Ruger SBH 44MAG. I need a light plinking load. I'll be seriously looking for some Russian components.

Is it possible to use 44MAG/SPL dies for loading these communist rounds?

[Lost River]

This is a great thread, since I just bought a Ruger SBH 44MAG. I need a light plinking load. I'll be seriously looking for some Russian components.

Is it possible to use 44MAG/SPL dies for loading these communist rounds?


It depends on what setup you are using.

A lot of Mag dies won't adjust far enough down to crimp. I ended up ordering LEE Russian dies just for the cartridge. One thing to note is that the LEE roll crimp die that is used on a mag is the same as on a Special or Russian. Since I am loading on a Dillon and did not want to have to readjust an entire set of dies, I just have toolheads set up for mags and Russians. The amount of time wasted re-adjusting dies is just not worth it to me.

[Malamute]

Looks like fun, I may try some Russian brass. I got a few 38 Short Colt shells to mess with for extra-light loads, the 44 Russians will do similarly for 44s. I single load them in the chamber of the Winchester type guns. Thats one distinct advantage of the open top action and one reason I like them. I usually leave the magazine loaded with full power stuff and single load light loads for grouse, snakes or whatever. You can push the carrier(lifter) back down after ejecting the empty and close the action on the empty chamber. Some balk a little when doing it, but they will go with a little persuasion, and can be slicked up a little on the front edge of the lever to make it easier.

I load the 38 Short Colts with a 125 gr cast bullet and light load of Red Dot, around 700-something fps. Your Russians probably make about as much noise in a carbine, meaning not much.

For ID-ing rounds, Ive gone to using colored fingernail polish around the primer, put on with a toothpick. its slow, but makes it simple to tell what the loads are when checking the gun. Orange 38s are +P, orange 357s are full power 158 gr mags. Black 45 Colts are black powder loads. I also often use one type brass for certain type loads. Win brass 44 mags=full power, Rem or other makes are medium loads. I use similar for 45 Colt load levels.


FWIW, one can have their seat/crimp die shortened at any machine shop if need be, or anyone with a lathe can do it. The dies are pretty hard/tough steel, but they can be cut down with a lathe. I told my boss at the bike shop the difference in length between 357 and 38 spl (the die set was 357 specific) and he cut it down that amount. I should have it cut down again for 38 Short Colt, but 9mm dies work OK for expanding and seat/taper crimp on 38 Short Colt.

[john c]

I tried for just a minute to load some round nose into my 16" 1894 .44 and they did not feed worth a dang. Maybe if a guy fiddled with the OAL a bit, but the load I am loading right now is a NO-GO. I might look at it again with some SWCs after a bit though.

There are conversion kits for lever guns so they will feed shorter cartridge lengths. Only worthwhile if you’re doing cowboy action shooting, probably.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lost River]

About those full wadcutters....

https://i.imgur.com/u5lSB2Y.jpg?1

This target was shot at 20 yards instead of 25 just because that was where the sagebrush, my hood and everything lined up. I got a few minutes to run out and pop a few rounds out of my lever action as well as my 5" 29 Classic, and the results made me grin to say the least. :D

I was shooting over a bag, over the top of my hood, and apparently that was good enough! The target was slightly tilted, so the holes are a bit angled, but the little 180 wadcutters in the Russian cartridge cases are a real winner!

https://i.imgur.com/Ys4Z49D.jpg?1

I then fired the last three I had with me into the big diamond target:

https://i.imgur.com/tTa5zBv.jpg?1


I only have a few hundred of these specific 180 wadcutters, as well as a few hundred of another brand, but know of another outfit that makes 200 grain full wadcutters, so I may look into purchasing some of theirs and see how they do. For now I will definitely be loading up the rest of what I have on hand. :)

I also fired 6 of the little cone head looking loads. It seems that The Russian really likes the Titegroup powder and the little bullets.

https://i.imgur.com/CGrvVAT.jpg?1

Those wadcutters though! OOF!

[jetfire]

Man, a nicely little 44 Russian out of that 44 Special GP100 from the other revolver thread would be a real treat to shoot.

[Oldherkpilot]

My Starline .44 Russian brass showed up today!

[kihnspiracy]

That looks like an accurate load. I can honestly say that I have never shot .44 Russian before. I have know about it for decades, just never encountered the round before.

[muzzleblast]

A while back a buddy who has been cast since the Middle Ages and is one of my Go-To guys for all manner of questions on cast bullets, reloading, .38 Supers, and other subjects, sent me out a few hundred of these.

https://i.imgur.com/No20WgH.jpg?1

...

Funny looking little things. :D

Those are Lyman 429303 bullets. Back in the old days they were considered an AP cast bullet. More fiction than fact, however. I've had a couple of those molds. The very deep grease grooves make it a very difficult design to work with because the mold simply doesn't want to let go of the bullet and drop it freely. The friend that sent you a few hundred of those, definitely likes you, a lot.

[SCCY Marshal]

Actually, wouldn't that be the little Czarist that could?


...why not just use Trail Boss powder with your 44mag brass?


...forced me to have to rethink what to do to pay the bills. I have been loading ammo for about 30 years, so my "side business idea" became a full time gig. Plus it gives me an excuse to travel less, be home for the kids each day...

"And how did this tradition vet started? I'll tell you! I don't know"

"Who, day and night, must scramble for a living,
Feed a wife and children, say his daily prayers?
And who has the right, as master of the house,
To have the final word at home?

The Papa, the Papa! Tradition."

"Rabbi, is there a proper blessing for the Tsar?"

"The Tar?"

"Yes, the Tsar!"

"May God bless and keep the Tar...far away from us!"

https://youtu.be/5sG_SOoi9hU

I'm cooking a meal for youngest's violin coach who is due here any minute. I hate this thread for putting one of the best soundtracks ever composed back in my head. It's gonna be stuck there, all night.

Smsller cases also have the perk of low case capacity. This helps keeps pressure up for proper powder burn and velocity with many powders while also avoiding positional sensitivity when one runs whatever powder they can find.

[Lost River]

Those are Lyman 429303 bullets. Back in the old days they were considered an AP cast bullet. More fiction than fact, however. I've had a couple of those molds. The very deep grease grooves make it a very difficult design to work with because the mold simply doesn't want to let go of the bullet and drop it freely. The friend that sent you a few hundred of those, definitely likes you, a lot.

Funny thing about that.

Met him on a gun forum. :cool:

Retired poleece. Ended up coming out to ID a couple different times. Stayed at my cabin for a month or so. Superb long range handgunner. Exceptional source of knowledge on the subjects of casting, .38 Supers, .41 Magnums, and all sorts of stuff. Just an all around good guy.

Took him on some enduro dirt bike rides across the Pahsimeroi Valley in Idaho. Not sure he forgave me for those. :eek:

Some of you guys probably know him from the cast bullet forum or elsewhere, RJM52, aka Bob.

It is rare that he does not have an answer when I have a question in regards to handgun reloading.

There is a lot of truth the fact that much of what is being done today has been done in the past, whether we know it or not.

[mtnbkr]

Smsller cases also have the perk of low case capacity. This helps keeps pressure up for proper powder burn and velocity with many powders while also avoiding positional sensitivity when one runs whatever powder they can find.

Google Trail Boss. It's made specifically to give low pressure/velocity loads out of large cases. It's "fluffy".

Chris

[Crazy Dane]

I have a folder on my computer that is labeled "the Russian" and I had a go at all the information I have saved last night. When I got my first GP in .44 special I was drawn to this short round but never acted on it because I could get the same velocities by down loading the special. I keyed in on something last night that had escaped me for what ever reason. In a thread off of the Smith and Wesson forums from the 2009/10 era, I found a discussion on how many people were winning bullseye matches with the Russian. This led to the why. I'm not a scientist but from what I gathered it is because of the efficiency of the pressures in the small case. The work that Lost River has done, Thank You, shows this.

I have ordered my Russian brass and have a stock of 210 LRNFP coated bullets that I will start with. In my search for bullets I have found a 215 hollow base wad cutter 215 Grain Hollow Base Wadcutter (.430) [430-215-HBWC] - $27.50 : Matts Bullets (https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=280&zenid=hm116p28o6m1ali97d57tjutc0) and was wondering how these would do? I do plan on trying others. I also have a stock of 255 Keiths and 240 OWCs from Montana Bullet Co.

[JTMcC]

A while back a buddy who has been cast since the Middle Ages and is one of my Go-To guys for all manner of questions on cast bullets, reloading, .38 Supers, and other subjects, sent me out a few hundred of these.

https://i.imgur.com/No20WgH.jpg?1


They are about 165 grains.

Without changing any settings on my press from the 240 grain round nose load, I loaded up a handful. They mushed the noses flat a little bit, but the seating depth was not bad. I am planning on shooting them to see what kind of accuracy I get, as well as velocity, just for kicks.

https://i.imgur.com/CGrvVAT.jpg?1

Funny looking little things. :D


Middle ages makes sense. Those bullets have a serious medieval vibe to them.

I bet they are fast from a speedloader to the cylinder!

[Lost River]

I was out testing some 240 SWCs. They shot OK, but the wind was blowing HARD and shaking my truck to the point that I was timing my shots between the truck rocking, while I was shooting over the hood. I was shooting over a rest on the hood. Anyways, The groups were good, not great, so I had some 175 wadcutters (the WCs weigh 175 not 180 as previously mentioned) I was going to chronograph . They are a Lyman mold 429348, just as FYI. I shot a 5 shot group of those. These are the results in between the gusts over a rocking hood. It confirmed my wider groups with the SWCs were the load and not me :)

https://i.imgur.com/IsmU8QR.jpg?1

I am working on sourcing the wadcutters to load more. The only place I have found them is Matts bullets, but their prices are not that good, especially in the numbers I need. Might have to have a mold built. If I do, I am 99% positive I will have it designed around powder coating/moly coating the bullets.

Oh, and the velocity on these was 800 FPS on the button.

Looking forward to getting to an actual bench, like the one at my cabin, really shooting over a steady rest, and seeing the results, once I get some more.

It is definitely a 50 yard bunny smasher!


:cool:

[03RN]

It is definitely a 50 yard bunny smasher!


:cool:


I was out on a nice long run today. Looking out across some pastures I was fantasizing about shooting our tasty snowshoe hares with a scoped 6" 686.

I dont own a scoped 686:o

[Stephanie B]

This is a great thread, since I just bought a Ruger SBH 44MAG. I need a light plinking load. I'll be seriously looking for some Russian components.

Is it possible to use 44MAG/SPL dies for loading these communist rounds?

Imperialist rounds. (The .44 Russian round predates the October Revolution by a few decades.)

[Crazy Dane]

I loaded some of these up and shot them a few days ago and I have come to the conclusion to shelve this project to a future time. I found these little buggers to be very accurate but the issue of supply right now kills the idea.

First off, I used my Lee .44S/Mag dies and it was nothing short of a big PIA. If one is to load more than just a few you really need the Russian dies or at least I do and everywhere shows out of stock/no back order. The Russian case is not long enough to activate the auto disk powder throw, even screwed down to almost excessive flair on the case mouth. I found the bullet seating die cannot be set with out giving a little crimp when seating the bullet. I thought about looking through all of my dies to see if one set had a longer seating plug but realized in doing so I would have to undo all of them.

The other issue is the bullet supply with their weeks of lead time and some not even taking orders. I want to try some of the lighter stuff like the pointy ones Lost River has and some wad cutters which I don't have.

The good about the Russian is I found that I could launch the 210gr bullets I have at the same or slightly faster velocity with less powder than the Special. I know its science and theories says it is possible, it was just fun to prove it. The one thing I am not really understanding is why is it more accurate? Thinking says if I drive the same projectile at the same speed out of the same gun it should be equal. I read an article years ago 'Why ballistics get gray" that this definitely fits into.

[Wayne Dobbs]

As soon as I load up a bucket load of the round nose lead loads, (I have a few 30 caliber ammo cans full of projectiles) for a couple people who have asked for some plinking ammo, I am going to use the funds to buy some 240 grain semi wadcutters and load those. The Russians have turned out to be pretty popular locally with some guys ( and gals).

I have had a few Model 25-2s and a couple Model 625 .45 ACP revolvers, and the recoil is very comparable. Loads of fun.

If I ever get some free time for a Jackrabbit Safari, I'd like to clobber a couple just for kicks with the Communist rounds!:cool:

You mean Czarist rounds, right? Round was developed about 1870.

[revolvergeek]

Those are Lyman 429303 bullets. Back in the old days they were considered an AP cast bullet. More fiction than fact, however. I've had a couple of those molds. The very deep grease grooves make it a very difficult design to work with because the mold simply doesn't want to let go of the bullet and drop it freely. The friend that sent you a few hundred of those, definitely likes you, a lot.

I have handloaded these before (I bought them from Matt's Bullets) and my guns either loved them or hated them. I never could really get the hang of loading them without some deformation of the noses. A very small wad of aluminum foil stuffed up in the seating die was the most workable option that I found. If they were cast out of something hard enough like water dropped wheel weights ( or Zinc if you are were really bored and maybe swagged them into a copper half jacket) they should penetrate pretty well.

I have shot some .44 Russian cowboy loads in various small .44s and have been keeping the brass. Good to know that Lee has a dedicated die set for them. That will make life easier.

[Lost River]

I am loading some new 240 grain SWCs @ 800 FPS in the Russian cases.

They are PERFECT out of a 329!

I have had a couple guys who are buddies get them for their 329s come back and get more for their steel frame 629/29s.


https://i.imgur.com/b2bgFyK.jpg?1


https://i.imgur.com/wnBVHqL.jpg?1

[entropy]

The look of those in the speed loader makes me giggle.

[jh9]

The look of those in the speed loader makes me giggle.

Like a frightened turtle

[entropy]

“The water was COLD Jerry!”

[Catshooter]

Them is cute as hell!

Bet they shoot pretty well too.

Yer getting outa the box for sure lately Lost.


Cat

[jandbj]

https://i.imgur.com/b2bgFyK.jpg?1


Serious holster envy.

[Lost River]

That used to belong to Nick, the co-owner of the shop. He had the gun as well. I can't recall now what we swapped for. Something I wasn't using too much. Such a nice rig.

Its another rig from them, that will outlast me.

Speaking of outlasting the original owners.

I was in the Milt Sparks shop here a couple weeks ago when I came to Boise with another gentleman (who was visiting from out of state) to have lunch with John Taffin the writer. My friend had scheduled it, as he chats with him frequently on another forum. Anyways, we stopped in the shop so he could get a quick 5 minute look around. We were checking things out and looking at one of the machines used to sew the leather. The machine is pre world war 1 if I recall right, and super heavy duty.

They use a thread from the maritime industry. Jim (the VP-co-owner) was showing us, and it is very strong stuff to say the least. I wish I could remember what he called it. But each time I go there I learn a little more, and understand why the stuff lasts so dang long. Definitely holsters you get to pass down to the next generation.

I really really like looking at the machines used to make this stuff. They look like you have hopped into a time machine, and stepped back to the 1930s. :cool:

[03RN]

I might just go put on my summer special now

[Lost River]

Well good news!

I had a cast bullet outfit tell me that they made a small run of of 2,000 these 175 grain wadcutters!

https://i.imgur.com/QpiHhEv.jpg

He asked how many I would like.

Naturally you know the answer. They were a bit more than some outfits but at least I was able to get them.

That 175 grain WC load in the Russian case is the most crazy accurate load I have seen in a .44 in I don't know how long! :cool:

Be fun to shoot a PPC course of fire with a .44 mag!

https://i.imgur.com/IsmU8QR.jpg?1

[Crazy Dane]

I stopped by a local store that is 70% used bookstore and 30% gun stuff and reloading supplies. There I found a set of dust covered .44 Russian dies and I'm back on track to load a bucket of these. I have a bunch of 210gr RNFP that I plan on using in the short cases, I also have to get a bullet order together so I can feed the rest of my .44s.

I want to try one of the lighter bullets in the Russian. Matts Bullets has some that go down to 135gr 135 Grain Collar Button (.430) [430-135-CB] - $17.00 : Matts Bullets (https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=287&zenid=hm116p28o6m1ali97d57tjutc0) He also has a 150WC and 160RNFP and a 165 SWC 44 Caliber : Matts Bullets (https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=70&zenid=hm116p28o6m1ali97d57tjutc0)

Is this too light? Or should I stick to a 175/180?

[lee n. field]

I stopped by a local store that is 70% used bookstore and 30% gun stuff and reloading supplies.

Parasdise. (Potentially.)

[Crazy Dane]

Parasdise. (Potentially.)


Close, it's the island across the channel that doesn't have running water or indoor plumbing. The natives babble constantly too.

[SwampDweller]

And the .44 Russian was from before the commie days, so it's a tsarist round!

[Crazy Dane]

https://i.ibb.co/ns5TFJS/D01-A21-E4-B4-B7-4083-AFD2-FBFDF9-FFE9-F6.jpg (https://ibb.co/5WfdPHV)

LtoR 215 RNFP, 240 RNFP, 240 SWC, .44 Special 240 SWC, .44 magnum 240 SWC. All 3 of the Russian is loaded with 4gr of Titegroup. The book says those should be between 800 and 900 fps.

[358156hp]

If you're looking for safe reduced 44 mag loads, consider experimenting with std velocity 45 Colt data, using comparable bullet weights. My plinking load for 44 mag is often 6 grains of Red Dot with a 250 gr Keith. In 45 Colt that load pressure tested at 12,900 CUP in the olden days, but if used in the smaller 44 mag case it would be a bit higher, but nowhere near maximum for the cartridge. That's pretty much in line with Ed Harris' Bullseye loads with basically the same components: https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Eds%20Alliant%20Bullseye%20Data.htm

[Lost River]

I stopped by a local store that is 70% used bookstore and 30% gun stuff and reloading supplies. There I found a set of dust covered .44 Russian dies and I'm back on track to load a bucket of these. I have a bunch of 210gr RNFP that I plan on using in the short cases, I also have to get a bullet order together so I can feed the rest of my .44s.

I want to try one of the lighter bullets in the Russian. Matts Bullets has some that go down to 135gr 135 Grain Collar Button (.430) [430-135-CB] - $17.00 : Matts Bullets (https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=287&zenid=hm116p28o6m1ali97d57tjutc0) He also has a 150WC and 160RNFP and a 165 SWC 44 Caliber : Matts Bullets (https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=70&zenid=hm116p28o6m1ali97d57tjutc0)

Is this too light? Or should I stick to a 175/180?

It depends entirely on if you can get them to shoot accurately.

The 175 grain wadcutters I found shot incredibly accurately, but I was extremely disappointed with the vendor (Western Bullet Company). It took a couple tries to get my order, and what I received was a mess. The bullets themselves had lube that was missing on 50% of them, in the lube groove. and there were globs of lube all over the place on other bullets. It appeared that they sat in extreme heat and melted.

As a commercial loader, I could not use any of them due to this. They were a total waste. I had already been on the fence about using them due to their higher price, but after what I received was such a mess, I chose to not use them again for anything.

If I was going to go this route, I would find a custom mold manufacturer, have them produce a mold for this bullet and then have a different commercial caster produce these.

[03RN]

It depends entirely on if you can get them to shoot accurately.

The 175 grain wadcutters I found shot incredibly accurately, but I was extremely disappointed with the vendor (Western Bullet Company). It took a couple tries to get my order, and what I received was a mess. The bullets themselves had lube that was missing on 50% of them, in the lube groove. and there were globs of lube all over the place on other bullets. It appeared that they sat in extreme heat and melted.

As a commercial loader, I could not use any of them due to this. They were a total waste. I had already been on the fence about using them due to their higher price, but after what I received was such a mess, I chose to not use them again for anything.

If I was going to go this route, I would find a custom mold manufacturer, have them produce a mold for this bullet and then have a different commercial caster produce these.


I love the website. You're pride in your daughter is incredible.

[Lost River]

Thanks Brother.

She is definitely living her dream at the moment. I told her to go for it now while she is young and can do it, as life has the tendency to get complicated later on.

[jtcarm]

You mean Czarist rounds, right? Round was developed about 1870.

There were probably a few in the Czar and his family when they were buried [emoji17]

[Crazy Dane]

https://i.ibb.co/ns5TFJS/D01-A21-E4-B4-B7-4083-AFD2-FBFDF9-FFE9-F6.jpg (https://ibb.co/5WfdPHV)

LtoR 215 RNFP, 240 RNFP, 240 SWC, .44 Special 240 SWC, .44 magnum 240 SWC. All 3 of the Russian is loaded with 4gr of Titegroup. The book says those should be between 800 and 900 fps.


I shot the Russians yesterday for accuracy. Sorry I didn't take pics. I still haven't replaced my chronograph yet so I don't have any speed numbers. I shot 10 rounds each and the RNFPs were extremely accurate. I had one flyer, like 5 inches flyer, with the 215s, all the rest went into a 2 inch hole. The SWCs on the other hand were so bad you couldn't even call what happened a pattern. They also leaded really bad and left a lot of powder residue. I'm thinking not enough pressure on the SWCs.

Recoil was mild with all three loads and will be ordering more of the round nose bullets.

[revchuck38]

I shot the Russians yesterday for accuracy. Sorry I didn't take pics. I still haven't replaced my chronograph yet so I don't have any speed numbers. I shot 10 rounds each and the RNFPs were extremely accurate. I had one flyer, like 5 inches flyer, with the 215s, all the rest went into a 2 inch hole. The SWCs on the other hand were so bad you couldn't even call what happened a pattern. They also leaded really bad and left a lot of powder residue. I'm thinking not enough pressure on the SWCs.

Recoil was mild with all three loads and will be ordering more of the round nose bullets.

If they're leading really badly, my guess would be undersized bullets before insufficient pressure. Have you tried the drop-through test? Drop the bullets from the rear of the chamber and let them fall into the throat. If they stick in the throat and can be pushed through (using a pencil, dowel, or something similar) with moderate pressure, they're about the right size. If they fall right through the throat, they're too small.

[Crazy Dane]

If they're leading really badly, my guess would be undersized bullets before insufficient pressure. Have you tried the drop-through test? Drop the bullets from the rear of the chamber and let them fall into the throat. If they stick in the throat and can be pushed through (using a pencil, dowel, or something similar) with moderate pressure, they're about the right size. If they fall right through the throat, they're too small.


They are .431 bullets are tight to pass through. They shot extremely well with 10gr of Unique in magnum cases. The unburnt powder and excess residue make me think not enough pressure, The 240 RNFP (uncoated bullet in the pics.) next to the 240 SWC shows there is less bullet in the case with the SWCs, more nose less base, is why I'm thinking pressure problems also. The SWCs are 18 BRN and the RN are 15 BRN may be an issue too.

[RevolverJIM]

I was out on a nice long run today. Looking out across some pastures I was fantasizing about shooting our tasty snowshoe hares with a scoped 6" 686.

I dont own a scoped 686:o

I do own one but you can't have it!!:D

[RevolverJIM]

Or "The little Communist that Could!"


Before the .44 mag, the was the Special. Most know that, but before that, there was the Russian.

Without going into a bunch of details that anyone can look up on Wiki or wherever, the Russian is a fantastic way to make .44 Mags (or .44 Specials) into very fun target/plinking guns. It is about like sticking a 230 grain .45 ACP into the cylinder. Very close ballistics wise, to the point that only the self appointed SME/nit pickers would bother to start in with the "Well akshully" BS.

A side by side of some 230 grain round nose 45 ACPs and 240 grain round nose 44 Russians:



https://i.imgur.com/GyIvcAU.jpg

Compared to Special and Magnum:


https://i.imgur.com/FvLQOqW.jpg?1

Have you developed any .45ACP level loads with .44 Special or .44 Mag brass?

Thanks,
Jim

[RevolverJIM]

From Lyman #40:

.44 Russian:
#429106 (175-grain RNL) 3.0 grains Bullseye/800 fps; 7.0 grains Unique/1100 fps
#429251 (253-grain RNL) 3.0 grains Bullseye/630 fps; 6.0 grains Unique/800 fps

.44 Special:
#429348 (175-grain WC) 6.8 grains Bullseye/1055 fps; 10.3 grains Unique/1170 fps
#429421 (245-grain SWC) 4.9 grains Bullseye/805 fps; 7.8 grains Unique/970 fps

Some additional data from Lyman #44: Colt SAA 5 1/2"
#429421 Accuracy load: 4.0 B'eye/689 FPS B'eye Starting load 3.0/565 FPS Top load: 5.0/792 FPS
#429421 Unique starting load: 5.0/665 FPS Top load: 8.0/1000 FPS

[Borderland]

I don't need to be reading this stuff. It's a lot like porn. I've already got some 38 Short Colt ammo to test. I don't own a 44 anything, concentrating on a .357 for my N frame purchase this year. I just realized that 2023 is just a few days away.

I have a 45 ACP revolver but I would rather have a 44 something or other that actually shoots a revolver cartridge and step back into the future.

Can a 44 mag/spl. RCBS die set load the 44 Russian. Probably not but I had to ask. I have 10 lbs of powder that will work and mucho primers.

I see Starline has brass. Finger on the pulse so to speak.

[RevolverJIM]

https://www.rcbs.com/dies-and-shell-holders/pistol-dies/?cgid=pistol&prefn1=caliber&prefv1=%2e44%20Russian%2f%2e44%20Special%7c%2e44%2 0Magnum%2f%2e44%20Special&srule=undefined

[Borderland]

One of the things I like about Magnum revolvers is you can go from bunny/grouse killin’ rounds to elk killin’ rounds in seconds.

Shoots rats also.

[Lost River]

Have you developed any .45ACP level loads with .44 Special or .44 Mag brass?

Thanks,
Jim

I have developed some fairly light loads in the past.

Usually using 180 grain wadcutters.

A 180 grain wadcutter in Mag brass can be run up to fairly good speeds with not much recoil and have good accuracy in typical 50 yard and in type ranges.

https://i.imgur.com/OaBb8Jl.jpg

[awp_101]

To drift this just a little bit, where does .44 Colt fit in the Russian/Special/Mag family tree? Is it a heeled bullet like .22 LR?

[Duelist]

To drift this just a little bit, where does .44 Colt fit in the Russian/Special/Mag family tree? Is it a heeled bullet like .22 LR?

Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but as I am in the process of acquiring a .44 Special Blackhawk, I’ve been reading every .44 Special gun and ammunition thread and came across this unanswered query.

The .44 Colt and .44 Remington have nothing to do with the .44 Russian/Special/Magnum family of cartridges. The .44 Colt is a transitional cartridge for Colt C&B conversions, whether they were converted after manufacture or were manufactured new for the cartridge. Like S&W’s .44 American, they are outside lubricated, heeled bullet designs.

The S&W .44 Russian cartridge came about when the Russian government analysis of the S&W revolver and ammunition submitted for a purchase contract was chambered in the .44 American, and they wanted a more durable inside lubricated bullet. S&W didn’t change the case - they changed the bullet design and diameter to a .429 inside lubricated bullet, and that’s where the .44 Russian came from. The Special is a lengthened Russian, and the Magnum is a lengthened Special.

So you can see, the .44 Colt has nothing to do with the S&W cartridge design family tree or designations.

[Malamute]

Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but as I am in the process of acquiring a .44 Special Blackhawk, I’ve been reading every .44 Special gun and ammunition thread and came across this unanswered query.

The .44 Colt and .44 Remington have nothing to do with the .44 Russian/Special/Magnum family of cartridges. The .44 Colt is a transitional cartridge for Colt C&B conversions, whether they were converted after manufacture or were manufactured new for the cartridge. Like S&W’s .44 American, they are outside lubricated, heeled bullet designs.

The S&W .44 Russian cartridge came about when the Russian government analysis of the S&W revolver and ammunition submitted for a purchase contract was chambered in the .44 American, and they wanted a more durable inside lubricated bullet. S&W didn’t change the case - they changed the bullet design and diameter to a .429 inside lubricated bullet, and that’s where the .44 Russian came from. The Special is a lengthened Russian, and the Magnum is a lengthened Special.

So you can see, the .44 Colt has nothing to do with the S&W cartridge design family tree or designations.



So you can see, the .44 Colt has nothing to do with the S&W cartridge design family tree or designations in its original form...


The current iteration of the 44 Colt is used similar to the 44 Russian and Spl in some of the available arms, such as the Richards conversion on the Colt 1860 Army frame, and some are so marked as suitable for all 3. Some are marked as only 44 Colt but I believe are otherwise identical to the guns marked with all 3. The 44 Colt marked guns appeal to many traditionalist cowboy type shooters.

Starlines page for 44 Colt brass equates it to 44 spl with slightly shorter length and a smaller rim.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/44-colt-brass

[awp_101]

Midway has Starline Russian brass (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021322665?pid=575318) back in stock, limit 2 bags (200 pieces total).

[Noah]

The current iteration of the 44 Colt is used similar to the 44 Russian and Spl in some of the available arms, such as the Richards conversion on the Colt 1860 Army frame, and some are so marked as suitable for all 3. Some are marked as only 44 Colt but I believe are otherwise identical to the guns marked with all 3. The 44 Colt marked guns appeal to many traditionalist cowboy type shooters.

Starlines page for 44 Colt brass equates it to 44 spl with slightly shorter length and a smaller rim.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/44-colt-brass

Seems like that modern 44 Colt and 44 Russian have a lot in common?

[Jim Watson]

Right. I mean, what gun company wants to deal with still another different barrel and chamber spec and what ammo company or handloader wants to deal with heel bullets?
So we have something we call a .44 Colt with the convenience of the .44 Special.

[klbsa]

What's the advantage to just shooting .44 specials? Is it a "Just because" thing? or is there a legitimate advantage? I looked them up and the Russians are almost twice the price. Just wondering is its a nostalgia type thing or not (which if it is I totally understand).