No more LEM?

[YVK]

Forum member javemtr posted on HK fanboys site that HK Germany is stopping production of LEM pistols for German civilian market. I am not sure what it means for the US market.
I am down from 5 LEM guns to one and even that one is around for sentimental reasons only. That said, I still think that this is the best CCW trigger system there is. HK traditionally has been out of any tune with needs of US civilian CCW market so I don't use their stuff anymore but that's HK, take them or leave them. If we indeed lose LEM guns, slow and anticipation-inducing as they are, it will be a loss for gun community.

[CCT125US]

If true, as a card carrying LEM fan boi this makes me sad.

[JSGlock34]

I imagine the VP9 is the more profitable line for HK.

[JohnK]

Im a 1911 guy through and through but the LEM, conceptually and in practice, is my favorite trigger. There was always a plan for one more P30L lem in the future. But I gather not if this is true.

[Kirk]

This definitely sucks. My V4.1s were incredibly frustrating at first but one of my happiest moments as a shooter was getting my split times to somewhat respectable levels lol. I feel like the HK LEM is basically the official pistol of Pistol-Forum, even though most of us have moved on to other things.

If they do drop the LEM series, I wish they'd add a VP9 single stack

[cornstalker]

I dove into LEMs a bit after reading Darryl's post regarding "people management" triggers. Developed quite an appreciation for them until my performance interests changed and I went to Glock. Great triggers, just different and I am slow with them. Hopefully, they will still be around in the US. Having also gone from 5 LEM guns down to the P30sk that my wife carries, I find myself wanting to have a P30 V1 in the safe...

[GJM]

Great development, with any luck paddles will be the next to go. Only kidding!

[Doc_Glock]

I feel like the HK LEM is basically the official pistol of Pistol-Forum, even though most of us have moved on to other things.

If HK can’t even keep the PF gun hipster crowd with the LEM, one can see the reason they quit making them.

[flyrodr]

I dove into LEMs a bit after reading Darryl's post regarding "people management" triggers. Developed quite an appreciation for them until my performance interests changed and I went to Glock. Great triggers, just different and I am slow with them. Hopefully, they will still be around in the US. ...

Ditto. I don't use them much any more, but fully appreciate the "thoughtfulness" of the LEM trigger. Plus, of all the rounds I shot through them, I don't recall anything breaking. And I'm a fan of that mag release.

[HCM]

Forum member javemtr posted on HK fanboys site that HK Germany is stopping production of LEM pistols for German civilian market. I am not sure what it means for the US market.
I am down from 5 LEM guns to one and even that one is around for sentimental reasons only. That said, I still think that this is the best CCW trigger system there is. HK traditionally has been out of any tune with needs of US civilian CCW market so I don't use their stuff anymore but that's HK, take them or leave them. If we indeed lose LEM guns, slow and anticipation-inducing as they are, it will be a loss for gun community.

I suspect commercial LEM sales were simply an off shoot of LE / GOV sales. The LE/GOV market is firmly in the striker fired camp with limited demand for LEM guns. HK's biggest North American LEM buyer (likely their biggest LEM buyer period) has now transitioned to Gen 5 Glocks.

[cornstalker]

Ditto. I don't use them much any more, but fully appreciate the "thoughtfulness" of the LEM trigger. Plus, of all the rounds I shot through them, I don't recall anything breaking. And I'm a fan of that mag release.

I vastly prefer the paddle release to a button.

[javemtr]

I suspect commercial LEM sales were simply an off shoot of LE / GOV sales. The LE/GOV market is firmly in the striker fired camp with limited demand for LEM guns. HK's biggest North American LEM buyer (likely their biggest LEM buyer period) has now transitioned to Gen 5 Glocks.
HK's motivation strictly seems to be cost. I sent a complaint email to them and they answered that if demand dictates it, they will start making LEM and other variants again.

But the demand for LEM on the German civilian market is essentially non-existent, definitely even a fraction of the US market.

Since 'normal' civilians are not allowed to carry weapons for self defense, nobody is able to appreciate the safety benefits of LEM.

We know that you can't win any speed rewards with it, so sport shooters will not choose it either. Therefore they probably only sold a few of them to enthusiasts, the rest was strictly .gov sales.

HK did however assure me that spare parts for all P30 variants will be kept on hand, as well as all parts necessary to convert USP's to LEM.

[HeavyDuty]

I became fascinated with LEM around the time the P2k and SK became available - it took a few decades before I finally picked up a used SK, and I’m rather fond of it for all the usual reasons. But, I’m too firmly in the Glock camp for it to be anything more than a curiosity. Still sorry to see it go.

[GyroF-16]

I suspect commercial LEM sales were simply an off shoot of LE / GOV sales. The LE/GOV market is firmly in the striker fired camp with limited demand for LEM guns. HK's biggest North American LEM buyer (likely their biggest LEM buyer period) has now transitioned to Gen 5 Glocks.

Yep - rumor is I’ll be turning in my LEM USPc40 for a Glock 19 Gen 5 sometime this summer.
To be honest, I wish it were an LEM USPc9 - I think it’s the best tool for my use case. But nobody asked me.

I personally took pride in attaining and maintaining proficiency with the LEM trigger. And it will always have a special place in my heart.
And I don’t see myself parting with the personally-owned copies that I have.

[cheby]

Double

[cheby]

Outside of pistol forum and hkpro LEM barely exists. I am actually surprised that it took that long for HK to come to this decision. Frankly, I'd say, good riddance.

[HCM]

Yep - rumor is I’ll be turning in my LEM USPc40 for a Glock 19 Gen 5 sometime this summer.
To be honest, I wish it were an LEM USPc9 - I think it’s the best tool for my use case. But nobody asked me.

I personally took pride in attaining and maintaining proficiency with the LEM trigger. And it will always have a special place in my heart.
And I don’t see myself parting with the personally-owned copies that I have.

Your full time counterparts are getting G19.5's now so it makes sense.

I carried a LEM USPc40 exclusively for 8 years. I have one for nostalgia but I don't miss the LEM trigger or 155 grain .40. If It was a 9mm I could live with it as it's truly G19 size / weight and I have ton of holsters etc.

[HCM]

Outside of pistol forum and hkpro LEM barely exists. I am actually surprised that it took that long for HK to come to this decision. Frankly, I'd say, good riddance.

You mean other than 20 years as the standard duty pistol for the largest LE Agency in North America ?

It was designed for institutional users and was successful in it's intended role.

[cheby]

You mean other than 20 years as the standard duty pistol for the largest LE Agency in North America ?

It was designed for institutional users and was successful in it's intended role.

Yeah, 20 years ago it was something... A lot have changed since...

[javemtr]

Yeah, 20 years ago it was something... A lot have changed since...
In your view, what revolutionary developments in the use and safety of carry triggers has happened in the last 20 years that makes LEM obsolete today?

[cheby]

In your view, what revolutionary developments in the use and safety of carry triggers has happened in the last 20 years that makes LEM obsolete today?

Perhaps it took that long to realize that it was a solution to no problem?
Look, I had a few LEM pistols back in the days. I spent a lot of time shooting them. I like HK pistols a lot. LEM however, was a misstep in my opinion. I understand this is not a popular opinion here.

[P30]

Outside of pistol forum and hkpro LEM barely exists.
In Germany, it strongly exists as service pistol trigger. The P30 LEM is the most frequent police pistol here (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Dienstwaffen_der_deutschen_Sicherheitsbe h%C3%B6rden). Federal Police (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_P30#Current_users) ("Bundespolizei") is its biggest user (38,500 pistols). Then Hesse State Police (16k) and customs (14k). Also KSK and military police ("Feldjäger") use it. But it seems, the SFP9 is overtaking it here.

The P30 is also strong as a service pistol in Switzerland (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Dienstwaffen_der_Schweizer_Polizei) and Norway, the richest European countries (whatever that tells).

[javemtr]

In Germany, it strongly exists as service pistol trigger. The P30 LEM is the most frequent police pistol here (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Dienstwaffen_der_deutschen_Sicherheitsbe h%C3%B6rden). Federal Police (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_P30#Current_users) ("Bundespolizei") is its biggest user (38,500 pistols). Then Hesse State Police (16k) and customs (14k). Also KSK and military police ("Feldjäger") use it. But it seems, the SFP9 is overtaking it here.

The P30 is also strong as a service pistol in Switzerland (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Dienstwaffen_der_Schweizer_Polizei) and Norway, the richest European countries (whatever that tells).
That is very true, but as you say, SFP9 is making significant gains in all those areas as well (rightfully so). The sad reality is that LEM was never able to establish itself as a viable alternative to striker-fired pistols in the civilian market. Whether that is because it is an inferior trigger (strictly from a usability perspective) or because not enough users 'have seen the light' and accepted LEM as the perfect combination of safety and reliability, I don't know.

[TGS]

I'm surprised simply because HK is the mac-daddy of maintaining archaic, incongruous product lines that the market isn't interested in.

Who actually buys the Mark 23 they still have in production? Or how about a USP with a useless proprietary rail, anyone? Any other manufacturer would have updated the USP frame molds by now and maintained the older proprietary rail molds in storage for agency replacement/supplement contract runs. HK decided to not do anything useful, however, and maintains a pistol with an objective handicap that prevents it from participating in most modern pistol tenders.

So, I'm surprised simply for that fact alone. If any other company owned the LEM system, I wouldn't be surprised...I'm just surprised because HK is doing something that actually makes sense.

[JonInWA]

I think the LEM is a superb system. I fully recognize that I simply won't be able to shoot it as fast as most of the other competitive trigger systems (and I'm certainly not the fastest shooter period), but I'm not any slower with it than I am with my DAO Beretta 92D or a revolver.

Where LEM shines is as a duty/threat management action. Dagga Boy has laid out its benefits exceptionally well, and it is very much a standard duty gun choice for me. I also like the tailorability of the system with parts and spring substitutions, and that these action differentations wan be accomplished essentially without gunsmithing or component modifications necessary.

As others have mentioned, it's also exceptionally user safety oriented- with its long triggerpull, visible hammer and self-decocking action. The fewer manipulations necessary during, or after use in an adrenelain-fueled situation, the better in my opinion.

My P30L V1.5 carries well as a duty gun, self defense gun, and in IDPA. Yes, I'm as accurate, and faster with my VP, but that's not the point for me in the venues where I choose to equip myself with the LEM P30L.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

1) since HK pistols are so durable, the couple of dozen LEM a pistols I have would last many lifetimes. Who remembers an HK part, besides a TRS, actually breaking? Since LEM is not a distinct model, but just a trigger option, I don’t see support going away anytime soon, as long as HK stays in business.

2) there was a time, HK pistols were the most accurate and reliable pistols available, and you sucked it up and took the HK trigger as part of that deal. These days, pistols are so reliable and accurate, HK isn’t the only option in that regard. That has made the trigger, and not reliability/accuracy, the distinguishing characteristic between different brands. HK understands this with the VP9, which is a trigger first HK model.

3) the thread on this on HK Pro has only had 15 comments in four days — in years past the loyal would have practically been protesting outside HK USA demanding the LEM trigger stay forever. The LEM base is probably at its smallest since LEM was introduced.

4) I still think the match hybrid LEM trigger on the USP FS 45 is the best hammer trigger HK offers, and an ideal trigger for an ideal field pistol.

[jh9]

Who actually buys the Mark 23 they still have in production? Or how about a USP with a useless proprietary rail, anyone? Any other manufacturer would have updated the USP frame molds by now and maintained the older proprietary rail molds in storage for agency replacement/supplement contract runs. HK decided to not do anything useful, however, and maintains a pistol with an objective handicap that prevents it from participating in most modern pistol tenders.

Are they submitting anything for modern pistol tenders besides the P30s and VP9s?

I assumed the USP was in the same boat as the Mark 23: for the HK collector market only. They're trading on 90s relevance and nostalgia, so any major change (i.e. new rail) would be viewed as a negative. And also probably cut into their P30 sales. I assume the batches they make for 23s, USPs and now P2000s are smaller and more infrequent than the P30 and VP9, so cannibalizing the product lines is going to hurt their already weak ability to meet actual demand.

[M2CattleCo]

The problem with LEM is that’s it’s difficult to shoot in sanitary conditions, but induce some stress and bullets go everydamnwhere.

It’s an expensive Glock NY trigger. Nobody messes with that garbage anymore either.

[cornstalker]

Has there ever been a point where HK did not sell every LEM gun that they make? Is there some stash of unwanted and unloved surplus somewhere collecting dust because no one wants the design? The way I remember it is that if you want one, you had better jump on it when you see one because they won't be around long, even before the current craziness. In fact, I do not ever recall the supply exceeding the demand, even in the used market. Maybe it's possible that HK (and others) have underestimated the market potential for it?

[DEG]

The information from the original post on the HK site mentioned the V3 DA/SA model will still be produced. Aside from the small notch in the V3 frame to allow for the decocker (which is optional using the LEM trigger parts), it's the same design. Change out a few parts and V3 becomes V2 very easily; but a V2 can't become a V3 without modifying the frame.

Keeping the V3 along with LEM conversion parts seems to be a smart move for HK inventory to keep the best of both trigger systems on a common frame. Who knows - maybe TLG's thoughts on how the hammer parts could be designed as a single drop-in unit could be produced by a third party. One can hope.

[TGS]

Are they submitting anything for modern pistol tenders besides the P30s and VP9s?

Using that rationale to justify not updating a product is sort of a self-fulfilling fallacy.

"I'm not going to update my product because I'm not submitting it for any tenders, and I'm not submitting it to tenders because it isn't updated".

Besides, I was referring to when the USP was still a more relevant product in their lineup. The USP wasn't designed yesterday, and there was a big period of time in between when it was designed and when the market went full-in on SFA guns that it could've been more competitive if not for the proprietary rail. The USP was designed for the military and police market, not for an incredibly small subset of nerd collectors that nobody cared about (including HK).


I assumed the USP was in the same boat as the Mark 23: for the HK collector market only. They're trading on 90s relevance and nostalgia, so any major change (i.e. new rail) would be viewed as a negative. And also probably cut into their P30 sales. I assume the batches they make for 23s, USPs and now P2000s are smaller and more infrequent than the P30 and VP9, so cannibalizing the product lines is going to hurt their already weak ability to meet actual demand.

For the most part, USPs are not collectible pieces of history. A change from the proprietary rail (which is a PITA to even HK nerds) to a universal rail would not have been destroying any sort of collector value based on such, as there's no significant history or piece of curio to destroy. Nobody buys the USP because of the proprietary rail.

Up until the last few years, the USP was in use with a fair number of militaries and police agencies; many of the latter switching to Gen 5 Glocks and P320s as part of the move away from 40S&W and DA/SA guns. Yes, it wouldn't be very competitive in 2021 regardless, but they still should've updated it 20+ years ago when the industry settled on a universal pistol rail. I imagine there's quite a few customers who would've purchased it if it wasn't for the proprietary rail. The fact it wouldn't be a competitive pistol in 2021 isn't a good justification for having not updated the pistol 20 years ago when it was actually in its prime as a relevant product, and if updated would have had more years of relevance.

[Corse]

I will continue to shoot LEM pistols and most likely convert more to the system. I have no issues shooting it accurately. Maybe split times are a little slower than a VP9, but meh. P30l v1, I think I’ll have to find one.

[jh9]

Up until the last few years, the USP was in use with a fair number of militaries and police agencies; many of the latter switching to Gen 5 Glocks and P320s as part of the move away from 40S&W and DA/SA guns. Yes, it wouldn't be very competitive in 2021 regardless, but they still should've updated it 20+ years ago when the industry settled on a universal pistol rail.

True. 20 years ago they could have given the full size USP the P2000 treatment instead of just the compact. HK gonna HK, though.

Here and now in 2021 it seems like they're all in on "if you want a modern USP just buy a P30" as their strategy for actual mil/le. Leaving the 23s and USP to Rainbow Six fanboys and people who remember the 90s like it was yesterday instead of almost 30 years ago.


For the most part, USPs are not collectible pieces of history.

I dare you to say that on hkpro.

The nerd rage will be powerful.

[11B10]

Having owned 2 different P30SK's in recent years, I admit it was a serious learning curve from my previous experiences with Sig and Glock. However, I grew to favor the LEM because the utility of it in a CCW environment where the visible hammer movement, combined with the long trigger pull, seemed to be ideal - at least for me. As for the paddles, I prefer them - bring on the grief.

[kjr_29]

I vastly prefer the paddle release to a button.

+1. After going through my HK phase, I agree.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GJM]

No doubt GGI is already working on an LEM trigger module for just $379.

[CCT125US]

As much as I may disagree with the decision, I do understand. There are probably enough LEMs in circulation to keep up with demand. I rarely buy new guns, and prefer well cared for used guns instead. For instance, I'm fairly certain I could post a WTB ad, and have multiple responses in a day or so. This of course would not add anything to HK's balance sheet.

As pointed out the LEM frame is really the difference, and perhaps they need that floor space, who knows.

[JonInWA]

I have absolutely zero issues with the paddles-althought I prefer the larger ones as offered on the P30 and VP.

The interesting "outlier" to the USP vs P30 discussion to me is with the .45 ACP USP versus the HK45. I currently don't own either, but in the back of my mind I'd be very open-minded to comparing the two and making the decision based on which one of the to I personally indexed best with. And in LEM preferably with either.

I could not care less about the rail configuration, as I prefer hand-held versus weapon rail-mounted lights on pistols.

Best, Jon

[Tokarev]

The problem with LEM is that’s it’s difficult to shoot in sanitary conditions, but induce some stress and bullets go everydamnwhere.

It’s an expensive Glock NY trigger. Nobody messes with that garbage anymore either.

Yep. Good riddance.

Flawed concept that fomented poor trigger finger discipline and made the gun overall more difficult to shoot. Not safer just harder to operate.



Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Navin Johnson]

Many obvious benefits to the LEM....

Many memories of have/had LEM...

How many (as a %) cary one on a daily basis?

[Casual Friday]

I shot and carried LEM guns from 2015-2019. As long as I was shooting them regularly, regularly meaning weekly, I was able to shoot them to a degree of proficiency that I was comfortable with given the limitations of them. All handgun skills are perishable skills, but in my experience none perish faster than with the LEM when range trips start to become infrequent due to life getting in the way.

What drove the final nail in the LEM coffin for me was shooting a Glock in 2019 after not shooting a Glock for years, and without much time on any striker fired guns during that time either. Shot timers and holes in paper don't lie. I was better with the Glock than I was with the LEM. Maybe it was because I spent about 12 years with a Glock 19 before branching out into Sigs and HKs, but I couldn't ignore the results. I sold off the HKs and replaced them with gen 5 Glocks. I haven't regretted it one bit.

I would agree that the LEM is probably the best people management trigger, but I'm not in the people management business so a gun that checks more boxes in the shootability category is a better choice for me. My HK LEM guns were reliable, and accurate, but slower and harder to maintain proficiency with, but they're definitely my favorite guns that I don't own anymore.

[Sauer Koch]

HK did however assure me that spare parts for all P30 variants will be kept on hand, as well as all parts necessary to convert USP's to LEM.

As the owner of 4 LEM guns, this wasn't something I wanted to hear, but as long as the parts remain available, I'm okay.

[RJ]

Shrug.

I'm sure HK looked at LEM production volume, the percent of guns shipped to their suppliers, and what their suppliers were telling them that people were buying. HK sales are a drop in the bucket for overall US handgun sales. Of what HK does sell here in the States, I would bet the vast majority are their strikers like the VP9 or VP9SK.

I read the p-f LEM thread dozens of times, bought in to the hype, and purchased a P30SK LEM V1. I tried hard to run it as a CCW. I even took it through my first Rangemaster 2 day class. Having Tom Givens time you is somewhat, ah, stress inducing, and I did not shoot it well. I'll admit compounding my problem that was I was using a VP9 for USPSA at the time, which messed with my head. Having had one, if it had had just a little heavier trigger pull, more like a DAO revolver, than the V1 setup, I think it might have been easier for me to shoot. But fiddling with HK trigger springs isn't for me. I ended up selling it, and the VP9, and happily moved to Glocks.

I doubt outside of the few folks who value the trigger for it's attributes, and can shoot it well (I can't), no one will notice. I mean, there are still some who carry P7M8s. A LEM is a cool trigger, don't get me wrong, but I tend to think more useful for its intended use, i.e. "Law Enforcement Modification". It can work as a CCW, but I tend to think if you are mere mortal shooter, like me, you'd be better off ONLY using the LEM, and not train with any other trigger type.

My 0.02 anyway.

[MGW]

I have absolutely zero issues with the paddles-althought I prefer the larger ones as offered on the P30 and VP.

The interesting "outlier" to the USP vs P30 discussion to me is with the .45 ACP USP versus the HK45. I currently don't own either, but in the back of my mid I'd be very open-minded to comparing the two and making the decision based on which one of the to I personally indexed best with. And in LEM preferably with either.

I could not care less about the rail configuration, as I prefer hand-held versus weapon rail-mounted lights on pistols.

Best, Jon

The HK45C was kind of magic for me. For a compact 45 it shot extremely well. Quick to draw, easy to carry, and way more accurate with it than I deserved to be. I didn’t feel that way about the HK45. I just couldn’t get it to feel planted in my hands. I was constantly fighting my grip.

[DEG]

Many obvious benefits to the LEM....

Many memories of have/had LEM...

How many (as a %) cary one on a daily basis?

Same here regarding the memories. I still have all the carry gear for P30s in at least duplicate, but mostly keep several around in different trigger and spring configurations because I like to pull them out of the safe every so often and appreciate the design. Not sure how to explain it - I think they are interesting in an over-engineered / craftsmanship / emotional way, rather than practical way for me. For carry and travel, a G19 in some form always wins though.

[Inspector71]

I carried the issued P2000/LEM from 2008-16. I just never could really “master” the LEM system to a high degree. The various S&W revolvers and DAO S&W 9mm pistols I could center punch a B-27 target with consistency. Tip of my hat to those of you who could.

[Borderland]

Has there ever been a point where HK did not sell every LEM gun that they make? Is there some stash of unwanted and unloved surplus somewhere collecting dust because no one wants the design? The way I remember it is that if you want one, you had better jump on it when you see one because they won't be around long, even before the current craziness. In fact, I do not ever recall the supply exceeding the demand, even in the used market. Maybe it's possible that HK (and others) have underestimated the market potential for it?

I bought my P30 SK V1 in April of last year about the time the supply of P-30's disappeared. I think all of the V3 pistols had already been sold out for months. I didn't want that configuration and it was shipped by mistake. I still have it and after shooting it some I doubt I'll be selling it. As you say, I don't think the problem is that HK V1 isn't selling, they just have more sales with other models and want to focus on those. A local dealer here is forever out of stock of HK pistols. They were always loaded with new and used Sigs and Glocks but they just laugh when you ask about the availability of an HK. They can't get new ones and nobody wants to trade a used one.

[Gumby]

My first HK was a LEM, it was my last. This cop didn't care for it.

[LOKNLOD]

I'm fairly certain I could post a WTB ad, and have multiple responses in a day or so.


Until they're discontinued, and suddenly everyone thinks they have a rare collectors item. :/

[YVK]

I

How many (as a %) cary one on a daily basis?

I dunno if that's the question answer to which truly conveys my personal attitude to lem. I don't use lem not because lem. I don't use it because there's no Shield\G43x\G48 sized lem or true G19 sized optic ready lem. If there were, I'd take them over everything else out there for EDC.

[GyroF-16]

I dunno if that's the question answer to which truly conveys my personal attitude to lem. I don't use lem not because lem. I don't use it because there's no Shield\G43x\G48 sized lem or true G19 sized optic ready lem. If there were, I'd take them over everything else out there for EDC.

Hmmm... a red-dot equipped LEM USPc.....
now THAT would be a true P-F Snowflake / Hipster gun.

Carried AIWB in an orange JMCK holster, of course.

[Tokarev]

Jeez. Should rename this place HKLEMTRIGGER.NET

[emoji16]

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[fatdog]

Shot timers and holes in paper don't lie. I was better with the Glock than I was with the LEM. .

That truth has ended more of my various platform dalliances than anything, although I enjoyed each journey a bit including LEM. HK LEM pistols have never let me down on accuracy or reliability, only my ability to perform my best. Mrs. Fatdog is not an enthusiast but she settled on USP/c LEM, so a couple of those are destined to stay.

[CCT125US]

Many obvious benefits to the LEM....

Many memories of have/had LEM...

How many (as a %) cary one on a daily basis?

As an outlier, I've carried an LEM for roughly my previous 45k rounds.


I don't use it because there's no Shield\G43x\G48 sized lem or true G19 sized optic ready lem. If there were, I'd take them over everything else out there for EDC.

While not personally sold on the RDS, I have considered getting one of my P2000 LEMs milled for a 507Kx2.

[RevolverRob]

The problem HK has is - their DA trigger pulls SUCK, particularly compared to other TDA guns.

You kind of end up in this situation where the Match LEM is the best hammer fired trigger that HK offers. It's really the only trigger system from them, besides the SFA that makes any damn sense overall.

Eh it is what it is. I'll probably stay HK-less until they get around to dropping a thumb safety VP9.

[HeavyDuty]

I’m still LEM-curious. Or bi-action. Pan-action?

[RevolverRob]

I’m still LEM-curious. Or bi-action. Pan-action?

I'm definitely Pan-Action.

[Chewbacca10]

Having owned 2 different P30SK's in recent years, I admit it was a serious learning curve from my previous experiences with Sig and Glock. However, I grew to favor the LEM because the utility of it in a CCW environment where the visible hammer movement, combined with the long trigger pull, seemed to be ideal - at least for me. As for the paddles, I prefer them - bring on the grief.

This, with the exception of the time on the Sigs and Glocks (I was a revolver shooter) is exactly how I feel. The only semiautomatic handguns that I own are LEMs. This news is disappointing, but I guess it's understandable. It's not a trigger that someone can just pick up and shoot. It demands discipline and practice.

[UpDok]

I think the LEM is an absolutely brilliant idea. HK's engineer, Helmut Weldle knocked it out of the ballpark when he came up with the LEM trigger design. But that being said, I'm sure HK currently sells a lot more striker-fired VP9, SFP9 & VP9SK pistols than any of their hammer-fired pistols. A production company can't argue with numbers of units sold. Striker fired pistols are presently popular with shooters and tend to be easier to shoot well for most people with less effort or practice than traditional DA/SA or LEM.

I still carry an LEM P2000SK but I really like the way my new VP9 OR shoots. I'm just a little reluctant to carry the VP9 AIWB even with a good holster.

[rdtompki]

I've been carry a P2000 LEM with Lazy Wolf Guns improvements for several years; options were limited prior to my move to Idaho two years ago and the combination of thumb on hammer when reholstering and the relatively long takeup were and remain appealing. I don't practice enough with that gun, most of my practice favoring a 9mm 1911 that I use in Steel Challenge. Nonetheless, I have enough time behind the gun to have confidence at typical HD/SD distances.

But faced with a pistol class coming up in a month I'm torn between the P2000 and the 1911 primarily because even at my advanced age I'm competitive and I know the class will favor full-size service pistols and RDS. I'm more accurate with the 1911 and faster. This is a message; which gun would I prefer in a self defense situation. I'm going to soul search, but I'm leaning toward using one of our 9mm Kimber Pro-Carry's in the class: lighter than a full-size, great balance: too hard to conceal from the California Karens but no problem OWB in gun-friendly Idaho.

[Nephrology]

That truth has ended more of my various platform dalliances than anything, although I enjoyed each journey a bit including LEM. HK LEM pistols have never let me down on accuracy or reliability, only my ability to perform my best. Mrs. Fatdog is not an enthusiast but she settled on USP/c LEM, so a couple of those are destined to stay.

I've just been too cheap to buy other plastic pistols that do basically exactly the same thing as the glocks I already own. All the modern plastic guns are kind of the same to me. I think the last non-Glock 9mm I owned was a pair of shields I traded in for G43s back in 2017 I think.

For this reason I will not miss the LEM. I hardly knew ye.

[GJM]

My argument for the LEM trigger is as follows. The USP FS and HK45C are totally vetted .45 Super launchers, and the LEM trigger is the best HK trigger available on these two pistols that is suitable for field pistol use. My argument for 9mm LEM pistols is as under caliber trainers. Beyond that, it is hard for me to argue for LEM pistols given all the amazing alternatives available now, that are as reliable and accurate, but shoot better on the timer.

[TheNewbie]

My argument for the LEM trigger is as follows. The USP FS and HK45C are totally vetted .45 Super launchers, and the LEM trigger is the best HK trigger available on these two pistols that is suitable for field pistol use. My argument for 9mm LEM pistols is as under caliber trainers. Beyond that, it is hard for me to argue for LEM pistols given all the amazing alternatives available now, that are as reliable and accurate, but shoot better on the timer.

How shootable is the standard DA/SA HK trigger in your opinion? In the USP series and he 45c.


For example, while Cajun gun works surely make the P-07 better, I find the trigger good enough as is for a DA/SA. It's been so long since I have tried an HK DA/SA that I can't remember how "bad" they really are or compare them to something like the P-07.

[GJM]

How shootable is the standard DA/SA HK trigger in your opinion? In the USP series and he 45c.


For example, while Cajun gun works surely make the P-07 better, I find the trigger good enough as is for a DA/SA. It's been so long since I have tried an HK DA/SA that I can't remember how "bad" they really are or compare them to something like the P-07.

When I was shooting a DA/SA USP FS, I pulled that trigger so much in dry fire I injured my finger. It is really heavy in DA! !

The DA/SA in the USP Compact is decent and I might prefer that over LEM in that pistol. I really don’t care for the position of the thumb safety on the HK45C, so the slick side LEM is more appealing. For field use, which can involve gloves or cold/wet/muddy hands, I prefer no thumb safety.

[M2CattleCo]

The hammer geometry on the HK TDA doesn’t allow for much reduction in mainspring power before they get unreliable.

The main beef I always had with them is that the obscene trigger weight coupled with the flexy plastic trigger shoe made for a miserable shooting experience.

[RevolverRob]

The last two posts here demonstrate why I'll be sad to see LEM go (if it goes in the US Market).

TDA HKs are just inferior to the LEM and inferior to other TDAs. The placement of the thumb safety is also inferior to a 1911/BHP.

It would appear to me the thumb safety HK designed for the VP9 over in Europe is significantly different in terms of ergonomics and placement. It looks much more "1911'ish". If HK could bring that safety design to their hammer fired guns they might have something.

[JonInWA]

My argument for the LEM trigger is as follows. The USP FS and HK45C are totally vetted .45 Super launchers, and the LEM trigger is the best HK trigger available on these two pistols that is suitable for field pistol use. My argument for 9mm LEM pistols is as under caliber trainers. Beyond that, it is hard for me to argue for LEM pistols given all the amazing alternatives available now, that are as reliable and accurate, but shoot better on the timer.

George, I don't disagree with anything that you're saying, but I think that the point of LEM is that it gives you an extended margin to stop the firing sequence-as well as also self-decocking. Unless you have an exceptionally high skill level coupled with LEM use, other systems simply are better for speed/timer shooting. A measure of LEM is not how quickly you can shoot, but how effectively you can be in deciding not to shoot in a high pressure scenario.

The self-decocking furthers the duty application in that it furthers the inherent application of safety in re-holstering in a dynamic situation; for example, quickly, safely and effectively transitioning to a different weapon when applicable-but concurrently (and probably by necessity, very speedily) stowing the pistol. Concurrently, it also gives you a new starting point if you need to re-initiate the firing sequence with the pistol.

For those into the gun games, unless you're into honing your expertise with your LEM duty pistol, most (read virtually all) will be better with a VP for example, with a short SFA triggerpull and quick reset (and a Glock's reset point is even quicker)(as is a 1911, etc).

Best, Jon

[TGS]

RE: HK DA/SAs vs other DA/SA guns...

My performance is notably better with the SIG P229 and Beretta 92 compared to HK DA/SA, and at half the mental concentration.

No matter what, I couldn't jerk a round off target with my P229 even if I tried. I was so used to such large errors with the HK that when I got issued a P229, I would "call" my shots and think I had missed a given scoring zone when in fact with the P229 I'd still be well inside the given scoring zone. At one point I tried mashing the trigger as poorly as possible to intentionally shoot sloppy, and I still couldn't produce the wildly thrown shots that I would routinely get with the HK if I wasn't 100% on my game with every single trigger pull.

To me personally, the seeming ability to throw shots in an extreme manner was the most off-putting factor to the HKs, and in hindsight now that we're talking about it I think it's a legitimate reason to not use the gun. Given the advent of the SCD and the changes to the Gen 5 Glocks that I prefer greatly over previous gens, it's a no brainer for me these days if I were to leave LE service: I'd buy a Gen 5 Glock with a SCD and call it a day. Training for precision at 25 yards with the Ameriglo Agents took some deliberate training, but once I got past that barrier the performance is undeniable. On a 200 Drill, I would usually shoot 130 out of 200 with the HK, 140-160 with the SIG P229, 170-180 with the Beretta 92, ~180 with the S&W Model 19 K-frame, and with the Glock 19M it's a smooth 170-180.

Keep in mind that I was training harder and more often with the HK than I have with any of the other guns....800 rounds per week with the HK compared to 200-400 per month that I've done the last few years. It's simply astonishing, the difference in both 1) on-demand performance and 2) returns on investment in training. I can shoot markedly better for a fraction of the effort, and when I have a "bad day" my chances of underperforming or (worst case) smoking a bystander are substantially less.

Like any good Pistol-Forum'er, I still have and hold my beloved spaghetti-blaster as it's simply a piece of phenomenal engineering and fun to shoot. I haven't touched the HK in 6 years, and will finally be putting it up for sale as I make room for 1911s.




The main beef I always had with them is that the obscene trigger weight coupled with the flexy plastic trigger shoe made for a miserable shooting experience.

Ah, yes.

1911=breaking a glass rod.
Geissele SSA AR15=breaking a crisp carrot.

HK?

Wet potato chip.

"Guns are tools, not toys" yada yada yada...but at the end of the day, I want to enjoy the guns I own...and there's something to be said for enjoying the gun you're training with, and not viewing it as a chore because it's so unenjoyable to shoot.

[RevolverRob]

Gn applieorge, I don't disagree with anything that you're saying, but I think that the point of LEM is that it gives you an extended margin to stop the firing sequence-as well as also self-decocking. Unless you have an exceptionally high skill level coupled with LEM use, other systems simply are better for speed/timer shooting. A measure of LEM is not how quickly you can shoot, but how effectively you can be in deciding not to shoot in a high pressure scenario.

The self-decocking furthers the duty application in that it furthers the inherent application of safety in re-holstering in a dynamic situation; fo example, quickly, safely and effectively transitioning to a different weapon when applicable-but concurrently stowing the pistol. Concurrently, it also gives you a new starting point if you need to re-initiate the firing sequence with the pistol.

Best, Jon

But the flipside is many, myself included, found that even the LEM is unforgiving to irregular practice schedules or precision work even in slower cadence fire. For sure it's great to allow you to get off the trigger, but it's such a difficult system to produce good results with, without effort that really extends beyond reasonable.

By that I mean for me to get to 80% of my 1911 skills with an LEM it took me 12-months of 4x weekly dryfire and about 3,000 rounds. Flipside, I picked up a 1911 again and boom, like riding a bike. Like many I found myself loving many things about the trigger, except how damned hard it was to get results I was happy with.

[TGS]

But the flipside is many, myself included, found that even the LEM is unforgiving to irregular practice schedules or precision work even in slower cadence fire. For sure it's great to allow you to get off the trigger, but it's such a difficult system to produce good results with, without effort that really extends beyond reasonable.

By that I mean for me to get to 80% of my 1911 skills with an LEM it took me 12-months of 4x weekly dryfire and about 3,000 rounds. Flipside, I picked up a 1911 again and boom, like riding a bike. Like many I found myself loving many things about the trigger, except how damned hard it was to get results I was happy with.

I think a good way of putting this is:

Guns are for shooting things.

The gun needs to be good at shooting things before all else. That includes reliability and the ability to put rounds where you want them to go.

If either of those two factors are off, then it's not the gun for me. If "social management" is a major purchasing decision, I say get a regular DAO.....it'll shoot better, and "manage people" better to boot.

[YVK]

With all this talk about how hard LEM is to shoot, I am now getting curious how hard it is actually to shoot. According to Excel the last time I shot my P30 was June 26, 2018 for the whole of 50 rounds. Before that it was December 4, 2016 when I stopped carrying, competing and practicing with it. I plan on going to the range on Monday, as long as weather cooperates. Mebbe I'll take that thing with me and see what I can do with it.

[JohnK]

My experience with LEM is not as involved as some here but I found that if I stopped over-thinking the trigger, I was much more satisfied and had much more acceptable (by my standards) performance.

[JonInWA]

I'll throw out another factor to consider with LEM: That the more receiver tailorable HKs, such as the P30, with its multiple backstraps and side panels may mke LEM more palatable, or at least a bit easier to become acclimated to, and index the gun with.

I personally seem to index better with my P30L with V1.5 LEM than my Beretta 92D, despite the 92D having the benefits of a Wilson/Langdon triggebar and lightened mainspring and thinner LTT grips. Don't get me wrong-I really like the 92D, and perform decently with it, and appropriately qualify with it for duty and IDPA. But it's undeniably easier and faster for me to shoot the P30L-and bench-testing the accuracy of both guns has proven that the mechancal accuracy of both is at parity. I did choose to increase the weight of the trigger return spring on the HK to provide a more discernable and constant resistance throughout the triggerpull (eliminating the V1 LEM characteristic "flying through the air" initially seemingly weightless triggerpull before you hit the wall preceeding ignition, which I found a bit disconcerting and flummoxed my LEM performance initially) which made a big difference for me, especially in eliminating vertical stringing of my shots (caused by the combination of the long LEM triggerpull coupled with the differences encountered in the pull's characteristics requiring transition.

It is also easier for me to fire LEM than a DAO revolver, although fundamentally both DAO and LEM effectively provide one with a semi-automatic with the chharacteristics of a revolver triggerpull (but with a vastly increased on-board cartridge capacity, better overall ergonomics (although that migh be arguable, particularly on an individual basis), and significantly easier reloading mechanics.

LEM is a bit unique, but I think easier to perform decently with after tuning the gun and yourself to best utilize its charactistics. But from a strictly shootable standpoint, unless the shooter is incredibly gifted and/or exceptionally well grooved in with LEM (like Todd Green was), when shooting a HK with LEM and a striker-fired HK VP, the VP is going to be more shootable-easier to fire at speed with equal accuracy. But pure shootablitiy superiority has never been the predominate feature of LEM. Since threat management can be (and actually has been) a possibility with a duty gun in a duty shift, I find LEM/DAO to be a desirable feature in a duty pistol.

Best, Jon

[Borderland]

Lots of discussion about shooting with a timer here. I would be interested in knowing how many people who carry concealed have shot with a timer or train regularly with a timer. I never have and my neighbor who carries hasn't. We did however practice with our carry about twice a month before ammo became too expensive to burn 200 rds in a range session. At todays prices that's about $150 for 9mm which is the de facto training cartridge. I know that isn't a consideration for people in LE but what percentage of the people who carry is that?

If LEM truly does slow people down, which I'm sure it does, how important is a second in the general scheme of SD shooting. I haven't noticed any huge accuracy disadvantage with my P-30 V1. I have a P-239 to compare. I also had a P-229 for awhile.

I reload but primers and bullets are in short supply.

[JonInWA]

Your post reminds me of a very illustriative video that Larry Vickers put out a couple of years ago, where first he had a gifted USPSA shooter clean a scenario, and then he shot it in a realistic combat/defensive shooting mode, presumably as he would have with Delta. It was a real eye-opener-skilled as he was, he shot it much more slowly (comparatively speaking) and deliberately.

There's one thing to put rounds rapidly on paper, and another thing to do so (or effectively visualize doing so) on "real life" situations (or scenarios). Obviously, the best combination blends shooting effectively at speed, with accuracy, and acute situational awareness. Vickers' demonstration displayed to me that slowing down can be an acceptable part of the desirable blend.

For me, LEM/DAO is a very viable and effective tool, to the point that it generally is my preferential duty action choice.

Best, Jon

[rdtompki]

I could have done without the soul searching that this thread has induced. I now threat manage at home with a 9mm SB"R" so my HK LEM likely doesn't come into play. In the chaotic world of civilian self defense outside the home you're taught not to draw unless you're in the act of employing deadly force. If nothing else if I stick with the HK for EDC I'm taking it to the range 2x/month.

[TGS]

Lots of discussion about shooting with a timer here. I would be interested in knowing how many people who carry concealed have shot with a timer or train regularly with a timer. I never have and my neighbor who carries hasn't. We did however practice with our carry about twice a month before ammo became too expensive to burn 200 rds in a range session. At todays prices that's about $150 for 9mm which is the de facto training cartridge. I know that isn't a consideration for people in LE but what percentage of the people who carry is that?

If LEM truly does slow people down, which I'm sure it does, how important is a second in the general scheme of SD shooting. I haven't noticed any huge accuracy disadvantage with my P-30 V1. I have a P-239 to compare. I also had a P-229 for awhile.

I reload but primers and bullets are in short supply.

You'd probably notice a difference (like everyone else here) if you applied rigor and trained with your weapon instead of plinking with it.

I'm unsurprised that you don't find a difference in performance given that you have no way of measuring performance, and apparently no baseline.

[RJ]

I'll throw out another factor to consider with LEM: That the more receiver tailorable HKs, such as the P30, with its multiple backstraps and side panels may mke LEM more palatable, or at least a bit easier to become acclimated to, and index the gun with.

I personally seem to index better with my P30L with V1.5 LEM than my Beretta 92D, despite the 92D having the benefits of a Wilson/Langdon triggebar and lightened mainspring and thinner LTT grips. Don't get me wrong-I really like the 92D, and perform decently with it, and appropriately qualify with it for duty and IDPA. But it's undeniably easier and faster for me to shoot the P30L-and bench-testing the accuracy of both guns has proven that the mechancal accuracy of both is at parity. I did choose to increase the weight of the trigger return spring on the HK to provide a more discernable and constant resistance throughout the triggerpull (eliminating the V1 LEM characteristic "flying through the air" initially seemingly weightless triggerpull before you hit the wall preceeding ignition, which I found a bit disconcerting and flummoxed my LEM performance initially) which made a big difference for me, especially in eliminating vertical stringing of my shots (caused by the combination of the long LEM triggerpull coupled with the differences encountered in the pull's characteristics requiring transition.

It is also easier for me to fire LEM than a DAO revolver, although fundamentally both DAO and LEM effectively provide one with a semi-automatic with the chharacteristics of a revolver triggerpull (but with a vastly increased on-board cartridge capacity, better overall ergonomics (although that migh be arguable, particularly on an individual basis), and significantly easier reloading mechanics.

LEM is a bit unique, but I think easier to perform decently with after tuning the gun and yourself to best utilize its charactistics. But from a strictly shootable standpoint, unless the shooter is incredibly gifted and/or exceptionally well grooved in with LEM (like Todd Green was), when shooting a HK with LEM and a striker-fired HK VP, the VP is going to be more shootable-easier to fire at speed with equal accuracy. But pure shootablitiy superiority has never been the predominate feature of LEM. Since threat management can be (and actually has been) a possibility with a duty gun in a duty shift, I find LEM/DAO to be a desirable feature in a duty pistol.

Best, Jon

I wholeheartedly endorse this post.

It encapsulates my conclusions of the LEM as a novice, in words much better than I'll ever come up with. I picked a few points to bold, for emphasis. Solid gold.

[HeavyDuty]

I could have done without the soul searching that this thread has induced. I now threat manage at home with a 9mm SB"R" so my HK LEM likely doesn't come into play. In the chaotic world of civilian self defense outside the home you're taught not to draw unless you're in the act of employing deadly force. If nothing else if I stick with the HK for EDC I'm taking it to the range 2x/month.

It’s made me think, too - why am I keeping the SK? It may be time to move it on.

[M2CattleCo]

Timers and targets are just a way for us to try to put numbers to make a guess of what our performance will be under stress.

If you ever want to get close, you need to force on force.

That’s not usually a common local event.

A way to induce the effects of stress:

Bring a barbell or dumbbells to the range (you probably need a private range for this).

Do a full body barbell/dumbbell/even bodyweight routine but instead of playing on your phone during the rest, sprint 50 yards and shoot your normal drills. Walk back to the weights for the next set.

[Borderland]

You'd probably notice a difference (like everyone else here) if you applied rigor and trained with your weapon instead of plinking with it.

I'm unsurprised that you don't find a difference in performance given that you have no way of measuring performance, and apparently no baseline.


compared to 200-400 per month that I've done the last few years

Send me $250 every month for ammo so I can train as much as you do. I can do Pay Pal. PM me for details.

[TGS]

Send me $250 every month for ammo so I can train as much as you do. I can do Pay Pal. PM me for details.

Red herring.

You don't need to shoot a lot in order to make what shooting occurs a more useful exercise, fudd.

[Casual Friday]

"You only fear the shot timer if you fear the cold, harsh reality of the results.- Abraham Lincoln (probably)

[Borderland]

Red herring.

You don't need to shoot a lot in order to make what shooting occurs a more useful exercise, fudd.

That's hurtful right there. :D

[CCT125US]

"When debating guns on the internet, I always take advice from people who don't post in DoTW, have a training journal, or show videos of them shooting" - George Washington

[JonInWA]

None of us are thrilled about the ammunition shortage-and it's starting to have organizational effects also is what I'm picking up. Ammunition is available-but at increasingly skyrocketing prices. And for .38 Special/.357 magnum, it's like after an apcolypse...

Guys, let's try to keep things moderatly civil-or at least within the realms of acceptable p-f sarcasm.

Best, Jon

[Clusterfrack]

How shootable is the standard DA/SA HK trigger in your opinion? In the USP series and he 45c.


For example, while Cajun gun works surely make the P-07 better, I find the trigger good enough as is for a DA/SA. It's been so long since I have tried an HK DA/SA that I can't remember how "bad" they really are or compare them to something like the P-07.

My USPc had a very heavy DA pull. It was ok, but I wouldn’t choose it to take a high risk shot. 8# is the maximum I have on my TDA guns.

[HCM]

You'd probably notice a difference (like everyone else here) if you applied rigor and trained with your weapon instead of plinking with it.

I'm unsurprised that you don't find a difference in performance given that you have no way of measuring performance, and apparently no baseline.

To save you some typing, we had a whole thread on “The Value of Timers” a few months ago.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?45909-Value-of-timers-debate-(sidebar-conversations-moved-to-new-thread)

[JohnK]

Timers and targets are just a way for us to try to put numbers to make a guess of what our performance will be under stress.

If you ever want to get close, you need to force on force.

That’s not usually a common local event.

A way to induce the effects of stress:

Bring a barbell or dumbbells to the range (you probably need a private range for this).

Do a full body barbell/dumbbell/even bodyweight routine but instead of playing on your phone during the rest, sprint 50 yards and shoot your normal drills. Walk back to the weights for the next set.

All of this is good advice. I recently was running sprints on my range while doing some rifle work and woof! No joke what that does to the body.

[GJM]

At a USPSA match today, there was a CBP person in my squad shooting his newish Glock 47. I asked him about the P2000 and he said he was thrilled for it to be gone, because while he thought the gun was high quality, the trigger was terrible. He mentioned the heavy stock LEM trigger, and when he hit the wall, he could feel the trigger flexing as he pressed it.

So far, he really likes the 47, and said they were issued it and 500 rounds of Lawman 147 JHP. Also mentioned there are now twice annual inspections to make sure no one messed with (lightened) their trigger. He was nice enough to let me shoot a few rounds through it at the end of the match.


https://youtu.be/T2j62JHW8xU

[TC215]

He was nice enough to let me shoot a few rounds through it at the end of the match.

Initial impressions?

[GJM]

Initial impressions?

My overriding impression was that stock trigger is heavy! Beyond that it seemed to cycle well, but mostly I was thinking about the trigger as I shot it.

[JonInWA]

Concur-and that's why I prefer the V1.5 with a medium TRS-it provides the trigger pull resistance I desired withoug going overboard in the process.

Best, Jon

[john c]

My overriding impression was that stock trigger is heavy! Beyond that it seemed to cycle well, but mostly I was thinking about the trigger as I shot it.

What would you guess the trigger weight to be? Are they running + connectors?

[rayrevolver]

Lots of discussion about shooting with a timer here. I would be interested in knowing how many people who carry concealed have shot with a timer or train regularly with a timer. I never have and my neighbor who carries hasn't. We did however practice with our carry about twice a month before ammo became too expensive to burn 200 rds in a range session. At todays prices that's about $150 for 9mm which is the de facto training cartridge. I know that isn't a consideration for people in LE but what percentage of the people who carry is that?

If LEM truly does slow people down, which I'm sure it does, how important is a second in the general scheme of SD shooting. I haven't noticed any huge accuracy disadvantage with my P-30 V1. I have a P-239 to compare. I also had a P-229 for awhile.

I reload but primers and bullets are in short supply.

From the cheap seats, LEM was not slower for my first shot, or really any shots for accuracy (there is a better way to say this.. all my shots are for accuracy, but I had a hard time hammering with LEM) . It was slower on hoser stages where I needed to basically shoot doubles or triples.

So big picture it wasn't compatible with my skill level at gun games.

That said, I am down to 1 LEM pistol, HK45CT. As a stock LEM trigger I really like it. Not slick like a Hybrid Match I used to shoot on a USP9, but still a good trigger.

If you have a smart phone, download a free shot timer, put the Par time on for 2.5 seconds, and draw from concealment. See if you can beat the buzzer to your dry fire, aimed shot. It costs you nothing. And then try for 2 seconds etc.

[Borderland]

From the cheap seats, LEM was not slower for my first shot, or really any shots for accuracy (there is a better way to say this.. all my shots are for accuracy, but I had a hard time hammering with LEM) . It was slower on hoser stages where I needed to basically shoot doubles or triples.

So big picture it wasn't compatible with my skill level at gun games.

That said, I am down to 1 LEM pistol, HK45CT. As a stock LEM trigger I really like it. Not slick like a Hybrid Match I used to shoot on a USP9, but still a good trigger.

If you have a smart phone, download a free shot timer, put the Par time on for 2.5 seconds, and draw from concealment. See if you can beat the buzzer to your dry fire, aimed shot. It costs you nothing. And then try for 2 seconds etc.

I might sign up for USPSA at my range this year if we don't move. That's the only way I can shoot with a timer at my range. The static pistol range rules forbid it.

But thanks for the idea.

[Default.mp3]

The problem HK has is - their DA trigger pulls SUCK, particularly compared to other TDA guns.

You kind of end up in this situation where the Match LEM is the best hammer fired trigger that HK offers. It's really the only trigger system from them, besides the SFA that makes any damn sense overall.

Eh it is what it is. I'll probably stay HK-less until they get around to dropping a thumb safety VP9.Why not just carry cocked-and-locked? The SA isn't that terrible, IMO, though it's pretty much all I'm used to (and it is a GGI/LWG-worked trigger).

As for safety position, I think that's just an issue of what you're used to. Lot of folks I know have argued that the H&K safety sits too high. I find 1911 safeties sit too low. So meh.

[Sig_Fiend]

Keep the LEM hate coming please. I still have at least a couple dozen LEM's I want to acquire, so I'm feverishly waiting around the classifieds... ;-)

[Borderland]

Keep the LEM hate coming please. I still have at least a couple dozen LEM's I want to acquire, so I'm feverishly waiting around the classifieds... ;-)

I wish they had developed LEM about 30 years earlier. I could have missed the entire DA/SA period.

[RevolverRob]

Why not just carry cocked-and-locked? The SA isn't that terrible, IMO, though it's pretty much all I'm used to (and it is a GGI/LWG-worked trigger).

As for safety position, I think that's just an issue of what you're used to. Lot of folks I know have argued that the H&K safety sits too high. I find 1911 safeties sit too low. So meh.

I'm a 1911 guy, so it sits too high to me.

That said, yea if I can't find an LEM HK45CT later this year when I'm in the market a TDA carried Condition 1 will be my second choice.

[YVK]

Weather is crap today, no outdoors shooting. Hence no videos.

First five shots to check POA, 8 yards.

67636

First draw, same distance, 4 inch circle, outta Shaggy

67637

67638

I ran 2 Bill Drills, both at 2.4x with 1.3x draw. I fucked one up by gripping gun wrong and putting everything right of A zone. Second run was better. I also shot a 5.13 FAST on USPSA target and missed upper A both times. I tried a Garcia dot, just one, and missed three shots, all high.

I capped it at 38 rounds, noting that I got a trigger trough bite for the first time ever, which I thought was a good sign, that I need new side panels since old ones are smooth after 26K rounds, and that I couldn't get under .20 splits. This being a 4 years hiatus from LEM, I didn't get enough sadness from my performance to justify an extra drink tonight. GJM reminded me that my LEM wasn't really LEM but a special needs LEM with all that trigger work on it; in my defense, I think it is all available much easier these days.

I shot a variant of a lightweight .45 1911 with a carry trigger for the rest of my session, and that did induce a lot more sadness.

[GJM]

The fast splits part of the LEM trigger is sort of a side show, since we don’t need sub .20 splits for EDC. The real question for me is what is the difference in splits to make an accurate shot at various distances on various side targets. If there is no difference in aimed shots is different than if the LEM takes longer to make the same shot. My experience is all shots take longer.

The transition from the LEM P2000 to the 47/19 for CBP will be an interesting case study in the perceived people management benefits of the LEM trigger. If the CBP starts shooting a bunch of people and themselves by accident, that will tell us something. You would expect these errors to show up especially early, given a new transition, and perhaps settle down later as they get more familiar with a striker.

[TGS]

The fast splits part of the LEM trigger is sort of a side show, since we don’t need sub .20 splits for EDC. The real question for me is what is the difference in splits to make an accurate shot at various distances on various side targets. If there is no difference in aimed shots is different than if the LEM takes longer to make the same shot. My experience is all shots take longer.

The transition from the LEM P2000 to the 47/19 for CBP will be an interesting case study in the perceived people management benefits of the LEM trigger. If the CBP starts shooting a bunch of people and themselves by accident, that will tell us something. You would expect these errors to show up especially early, given a new transition, and perhaps settle down later as they get more familiar with a striker.

I think if this were the 1980s, you'd see that......but trigger finger discipline is widely understood and taught these days so you're not going to see it like the 80's/90's with agencies switching from revolvers to Glocks. Lots of agencies over the last decade in particular have gone from DA guns to SFAs (mine included), and it hasn't been accompanied with a rise in NDs so I wouldn't expect any different with CBP going from LEM to SFA.

[TC215]

I think if this were the 1980s, you'd see that......but trigger finger discipline is widely understood and taught these days so you're not going to see it like the 80's/90's with agencies switching from revolvers to Glocks. Lots of agencies over the last decade in particular have gone from DA guns to SFAs (mine included), and it hasn't been accompanied with a rise in NDs so I wouldn't expect any different with CBP going from LEM to SFA.

LASD had a problem going from Berettas to M&Ps. We had an administrator try to use that as an excuse to stop our transition from USPs to Glocks at my old agency. We didn't have any issues after our transition, but we weren't riding the trigger with our H&Ks like a lot of LASD guys evidently were with the Berettas.


In fact, the Weapons Training Unit analysis found in all but two of the thirty-one 2014 unintended discharge incidents, the employee had his finger on the trigger when the firearm discharged. The two exceptions occurred when an object, a coat hook and a portable radio antenna, respectively, caught on the trigger of an M&P pistol. The authors of the analysis noted that until 2002, LASD personnel were trained, “on target, on trigger,” meaning that as a deputy is pointing his or her Beretta 92F at a target the finger would be on the trigger. According to interviews we conducted, in 2002, the training curriculum was updated so that deputies were taught to keep their trigger finger along the frame of the pistol and off the trigger until he or she made the decision to shoot. According to the Weapons Training Unit report, older deputies often kept the prior learned practice of resting their finger on the trigger, despite the new training. The report’s authors concluded “that the practice of ‘riding the trigger’ has resulted in an increase in unintentional discharges.”

https://oig.lacounty.gov/Portals/OIG/Reports/Unintended%20Discharge%20Report.pdf

[M2CattleCo]

Pretty sure every CBP agent already owns a Glock or an M&P anyway. :D

[MGW]

The fast splits part of the LEM trigger is sort of a side show, since we don’t need sub .20 splits for EDC. The real question for me is what is the difference in splits to make an accurate shot at various distances on various side targets. If there is no difference in aimed shots is different than if the LEM takes longer to make the same shot. My experience is all shots take longer.

The transition from the LEM P2000 to the 47/19 for CBP will be an interesting case study in the perceived people management benefits of the LEM trigger. If the CBP starts shooting a bunch of people and themselves by accident, that will tell us something. You would expect these errors to show up especially early, given a new transition, and perhaps settle down later as they get more familiar with a striker.

I’ve seen a couple of NDs during our switch from M9’s to M17’s. But as far as I could tell they were non dedicated shooters.

P.S. the more I shoot the M17 the more I hate it.

[MGW]

I'm a 1911 guy, so it sits too high to me.

That said, yea if I can't find an LEM HK45CT later this year when I'm in the market a TDA carried Condition 1 will be my second choice.

My issue with the TDA 45c cocked and locked was I would occasionally decock the pistol when all I wanted to do was take it off safe. TDA wasn’t terrible once broken in. I used grease on the hammer parts and would leave the hammer in the cocked position for a few days at a time. It really wasn’t that bad after it broken in.

[Borderland]

My issue with the TDA 45c cocked and locked was I would occasionally decock the pistol when all I wanted to do was take it off safe. TDA wasn’t terrible once broken in. I used grease on the hammer parts and would leave the hammer in the cocked position for a few days at a time. It really wasn’t that bad after it broken in.

That's the reason that HK moved the decocker to the rear of the slide on the P-30. Very weird but I guess it works if you can get used to it. Another reason for V1 LEM. No decocker.

[cheby]

In your view, what revolutionary developments in the use and safety of carry triggers has happened in the last 20 years that makes LEM obsolete today?


I think if this were the 1980s, you'd see that......but trigger finger discipline is widely understood and taught these days so you're not going to see it like the 80's/90's with agencies switching from revolvers to Glocks. Lots of agencies over the last decade in particular have gone from DA guns to SFAs (mine included), and it hasn't been accompanied with a rise in NDs so I wouldn't expect any different with CBP going from LEM to SFA.

Proper training and gun handling. That is what happened in the last 20 years.

[Default.mp3]

My issue with the TDA 45c cocked and locked was I would occasionally decock the pistol when all I wanted to do was take it off safe. TDA wasn’t terrible once broken in. I used grease on the hammer parts and would leave the hammer in the cocked position for a few days at a time. It really wasn’t that bad after it broken in. Have you considered changing it to V9? The detent plate is like 15 USD shipped and takes like 30 seconds to swap out with a hammer and punch.

[YVK]

P.S. the more I shoot the M17 the more I hate it.

Why is that?

[TGS]

Why is that?

Probably gets tired of getting shot by his own gun.

[MGW]

Why is that?

Up front I’ll admit to liking the M9’s. I was also a Sig classic P series fan on the civilian side.

I’m at just under 1k through the M17 now. Not a lot of rounds but in our world it’s significant. My issued 17 sights are off. It shoots low and right (I’m right handed) and no easy way to fix it. The grip is too round. I feel like I have to death grip it to control recoil. The extended magazines hang up on everything when they’re in the magazine pouch (I use Esstac). They are too long in my opinion so reloads are also a pita. I really dislike the feel of the flat trigger in it.

I can make it work. I finished top 10 with it at the state match this year. I think I was top five with the M17 even with the sights off. But I was way more accurate and comfortable with the Beretta. If they fixed the sights and switched to the X grip I would like it better. I don’t love the x grip but I prefer the flatter profile of it.

Side note. I’ve seen a shooter have what I think are light strikes or maybe a dead triggers twice now. I have no idea what the actual malfunction was. Same non dedicated shooter both times it happened.

One more thing. I might be wrong but I don’t see it holding up over the long haul. Too many small parts that easily break or are damaged by people that don’t know what they are doing.

[GJM]

Up front I’ll admit to liking the M9’s. I was also a Sig classic P series fan on the civilian side.

I’m at just under 1k through the M17 now. Not a lot of rounds but in our world it’s significant. My issued 17 sights are off. It shoots low and right (I’m right handed) and no easy way to fix it. The grip is too round. I feel like I have to death grip it to control recoil. The extended magazines hang up on everything when they’re in the magazine pouch (I use Esstac). They are too long in my opinion so reloads are also a pita. I really dislike the feel of the flat trigger in it.

I can make it work. I finished top 10 with it at the state match this year. I think I was top five with the M17 even with the sights off. But I was way more accurate and comfortable with the Beretta. If they fixed the sights and switched to the X grip I would like it better. I don’t love the x grip but I prefer the flatter profile of it.

Side note. I’ve seen a shooter have what I think are light strikes or maybe a dead triggers twice now. I have no idea what the actual malfunction was. Same non dedicated shooter both times it happened.

One more thing. I might be wrong but I don’t see it holding up over the long haul. Too many small parts that easily break or are damaged by people that don’t know what they are doing.

My wife has at least a half dozen Legion and X5 pistols, between her practice and match pistols. She has enough spare parts to practically build a whole pistol from her parts bin, and is very familiar with the FCU disassembly and assembly. I would say the 320 pistols are PM intensive, with a number of gotchas, like bending the ejector, the little striker spring, take down levers that break. She keeps them running with constant attention. I don’t see the average LE user putting in that effort, although they aren’t likely shooting her round counts either. My M&P pistols get the bore snake and lube monthly, and otherwise just run with zero PM.

[TGS]

I would say the 320 pistols are PM intensive, with a number of gotchas,

Always a winning combination for a general issue military item.

On one hand, I think the idea behind the M17/M18 is that the FCU will just get replaced as a unit when something breaks, simplifying the maintenance logistics and being able to return guns to service on the spot instead of being down for extended periods of time waiting on repairs...

...but on the other hand, if the military can find a way to cut corners and skimp on money, they will...so I imagine it's not going to work out the way one would hope. "Hey lets get this third-tier company to build us FCUs not-to-spec for half the price", or "fuck it, just tell the armorers to stretch the springs and replace the small parts in the FCU with parts from other broken FCUs."

[GJM]

Always a winning combination for a general issue military item.

On one hand, I think the idea behind the M17/M18 is that the FCU will just get replaced as a unit when something breaks....

...but on the other hand, if the military can find a way to cut corners and skimp on money, they will...so I imagine it's not going to work out the way one would hope. "Hey lets get this third-tier company to build us FCUs not-to-spec for half the price", or "fuck it, just tell the armorers to stretch the springs and replace the small parts in the FCU with parts from other broken FCUs."

It is not just the FCU that is pm intensive.

[hufnagel]

I can only say, personally I never liked LEM, and prefer TDA. I mourn the loss of the choice of LEM vs. non-LEM though.

[Corse]

I feel like this whole thread is deja vu.

In my mind running a LEM trigger is no different than running cocked and locked on the HKs. The LEM has a longer reset, but the pull feels the same with the exception of the trigger starting at a more forward position.

I wonder if it just works better with different techniques. If you ride the trigger to reset you won’t like the LEM. If you release the trigger completely then LEM will work fine, although it could have slightly slower split times.

[OlongJohnson]

The problem HK has is - their DA trigger pulls SUCK, particularly compared to other TDA guns.

Having looked in detail at the internal parts quite a bit (and measured with gage pins and a micrometer), I believe the main reason for that is that the hammer axles are neither round, nor sized appropriately, nor smooth, as one would normally make any shaft that has as its primary purpose being a pivot axle for something else to rotate on. They are oval with a mold parting ridge at top and bottom. They are a couple thousandths smaller in diameter than the ID of the hammer, making it a loose and wobbly fit. And the surface finish of both the axle and the inside of the hammer is quite rough. That leads to a great deal of friction, as well as inconsistency from press to press in terms of how much force is required and how far the trigger must be pressed to reach the release. And also some stick-slip that can make for an irregular feel though an individual press sometimes.

I believe that if the hammer and hammer axle were made to work as an actual pivot shaft and pivoting component should, the DA would be dramatically improved. Doing so would require machining at least a new hammer axle and probably some heavy plating buildup on the hammer, then lapping it to size. Not cheap. I might still do it one day.



My issue with the TDA 45c cocked and locked was I would occasionally decock the pistol when all I wanted to do was take it off safe. TDA wasn’t terrible once broken in. I used grease on the hammer parts and would leave the hammer in the cocked position for a few days at a time. It really wasn’t that bad after it broken in.

What that other guy said about the safety-only detent plate. A USP .45 with one of those and a match trigger would be the world's least expensive and most reliable and durable double-stack poly 1911 with the least expensive functional mags. And you wouldn't deal with the stuff I discussed above.

[JohnK]

All of the back-and-forth over the LEM over the past few days has me put my 1911 in the safe in favor of the P30 today... I don't have blazing fast performance with this gun (or any) but between the frequency of dry-fire practice and occasional live-fire, coupled with the trijicon HD sights I felt okay with it for a day or few days. I am typically not a flavor of the day kind of guy due to consistency and everything else talked about on this forum... but boy it makes me wonder why I have been carrying a heavy metal gun for so long every time I put this or a Glock on.

[rdtompki]

All of the back-and-forth over the LEM over the past few days has me put my 1911 in the safe in favor of the P30 today... I don't have blazing fast performance with this gun (or any) but between the frequency of dry-fire practice and occasional live-fire, coupled with the trijicon HD sights I felt okay with it for a day or few days. I am typically not a flavor of the day kind of guy due to consistency and everything else talked about on this forum... but boy it makes me wonder why I have been carrying a heavy metal gun for so long every time I put this or a Glock on.
John, different strokes:) I'm going to give my Kimber HD Pro Carry a try, a least to the extent of running the run in an upcoming class and buying a good OWB carry holster. Since I practice 1-2/week with my full-size 1911 a Commander 1911 would be a more rational choice if the weight is not an issue. Truth be known although I carry every waking hour I'm not on my feet much so weight isn't that much of an issue and my HK capacity is only 13 rounds with 1911 mags easy to conceal. Oh the agony of decision making! The Kimber would need better sights and a safety to match our other 1911s, but much less expensive than buying another gun.

[JSGlock34]

I’m at just under 1k through the M17 now. Not a lot of rounds but in our world it’s significant. My issued 17 sights are off. It shoots low and right (I’m right handed) and no easy way to fix it. The grip is too round. I feel like I have to death grip it to control recoil. The extended magazines hang up on everything when they’re in the magazine pouch (I use Esstac). They are too long in my opinion so reloads are also a pita. I really dislike the feel of the flat trigger in it.

I think the grip is too slick. The X-Carry or Wilson module has a lot more texture. But issue grip is issue grip. I dislike the sights as well (.140 front is too wide, and the rear is too big as well), but haven't had POI issues.

[Chewbacca10]

I called HK customer service a few minutes ago, and the customer service rep said there were not plans to discontinue the LEM. Now, I know that it's possible the front-line people answering the phones just weren't informed about this yet, but I am wondering.

[RevolverRob]

I called HK customer service a few minutes ago, and the customer service rep said there were not plans to discontinue the LEM. Now, I know that it's possible the front-line people answering the phones just weren't informed about this yet, but I am wondering.

All we know is it is confirmed as discontinued for the German Civilian Market. What that translate to here in the US is speculation. I do not anticipate the LEM being discontinued while it is still partly in service with CBP.

it may eventually come to pass, but HK is never fast about anything. Notably there has not been confirmation of discontinuation of LEM for the LE/MIL markets in Germany or elsewhere.

HK is likely to continue supporting the LEM for a considerable length of time.

[HCM]

All we know is it is confirmed as discontinued for the German Civilian Market. What that translate to here in the US is speculation. I do not anticipate the LEM being discontinued while it is still partly in service with CBP.

it may eventually come to pass, but HK is never fast about anything. Notably there has not been confirmation of discontinuation of LEM for the LE/MIL markets in Germany or elsewhere.

HK is likely to continue supporting the LEM for a considerable length of time.

I agree with the rest of your post but the CBP thing is not a factor. HK delivered all the guns / spare parts for the CBP contract years ago.

[Chewbacca10]

All we know is it is confirmed as discontinued for the German Civilian Market. What that translate to here in the US is speculation.

Ahh. Thank you for the clarification. That just gives me a reason to purchase a backup P30SK.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I called HK customer service a few minutes ago, and the customer service rep said there were not plans to discontinue the LEM. Now, I know that it's possible the front-line people answering the phones just weren't informed about this yet, but I am wondering.

A while ago I was told be a local dealer the P2000 was being discontinued, I called and asked HK. Reply was a firm negative, this was at least a few years back. I'm betting on them not going anywhere, as said previously they have never been exactly 'easy to find', as in, just sitting on shelves waiting for someone silly enough to purchase them. I've always had to look a bit harder to find one, even less online typically than DA/SA. Germany is a very different country than USA, I don't believe they have the civilian carry market there to lean on like they do here currently.

This makes me want another LEM, I've only ever had V2 LEM P2000SK 9mm. I really liked it, wasn't too hard to shoot but also wasn't too 'easy' to shoot.... things by negligence of a stray finger. I don't think I like the V1 though from the ones I've handled, way too light and long. It's like you too the best of both worlds from DA and SA pulls, married them together and got a giant abortion. Light pulls are best being short, long pulls are best being heavier. IMO of course.

There is obviously the potential for HK to still pull the plug here stateside on these in time, but I don't see it personally.

[Gadfly]

I was issued the LEM and carried it for several years. I was very excited to hand in my 96D and get the USPc LEM... then I spent two days on the range transitioning.... eeeeehhhhh.... it was... meh. I can shoot it. I can get a perfect score on our (very easy) qual. But as mentioned, it is just not a great or fast trigger. The only reason I did not immediately try and wrangle my 96D back was the HK was smaller, lighter and had one more round.

A few years later I scored a P2000sk LEM .40 from a coworker doing a “divorce” liquidation of some guns. I had for about a year, but ended up flipping it for close to double what I paid. I didn’t miss it. Fast forward 10 years, and another co worker had one to sell. I did not really want it much, but at the price and for the nostalgia, I jumped. The 10 year break was interesting. I can still run it pretty well. It still would not be my first choice to carry, at all. BUT, they are incredibly reliable. I already had several holsters. And I had about 20 mags for it out in the garage. Sooooo, a spare gun is spare gun. I would not hesitate to stuff some CorBon solid .40 in it and have a 12+1 woods gun. If I have to sell it,I can always get my money back out of it.

Overall it was just a fully cocked and unlocked trigger with a 3/4” reset. If I wanted a “people management trigger”, I would run a Beretta D or a Sig DAK. The LEM was my least favorite issued pistol, but I must say they ran well and had very few problems (early on we replaced every firing pin with an updated design, but that was about it.).

I don’t think the shooting world will suffer too much with the demise of the LEM.
I will hold onto the LEM, at least for now.

68744

[HCM]

A while ago I was told be a local dealer the P2000 was being discontinued, I called and asked HK. Reply was a firm negative, this was at least a few years back. I'm betting on them not going anywhere, as said previously they have never been exactly 'easy to find', as in, just sitting on shelves waiting for someone silly enough to purchase them. I've always had to look a bit harder to find one, even less online typically than DA/SA. Germany is a very different country than USA, I don't believe they have the civilian carry market there to lean on like they do here currently.

This makes me want another LEM, I've only ever had V2 LEM P2000SK 9mm. I really liked it, wasn't too hard to shoot but also wasn't too 'easy' to shoot.... things by negligence of a stray finger. I don't think I like the V1 though from the ones I've handled, way too light and long. It's like you too the best of both worlds from DA and SA pulls, married them together and got a giant abortion. Light pulls are best being short, long pulls are best being heavier. IMO of course.

There is obviously the potential for HK to still pull the plug here stateside on these in time, but I don't see it personally.

HK brings in guns in batches and the less popular guns may only get a batch or two a year. Many gun peddlers will either mistake unavailable for discontinued. The less honest ones will lie about them being discontinued in hopes you will buy buy something else they have or can get BBC quicker.

[GyroF-16]

I was issued the LEM and carried it for several years. I was very excited to hand in my 96D and get the USPc LEM... then I spent two days on the range transitioning.... eeeeehhhhh.... it was... meh. I can shoot it. I can get a perfect score on our (very easy) qual. But as mentioned, it is just not a great or fast trigger. The only reason I did not immediately try and wrangle my 96D back was the HK was smaller, lighter and had one more round.

A few years later I scored a P2000sk LEM .40 from a coworker doing a “divorce” liquidation of some guns. I had for about a year, but ended up flipping it for close to double what I paid. I didn’t miss it. Fast forward 10 years, and another co worker had one to sell. I did not really want it much, but at the price and for the nostalgia, I jumped. The 10 year break was interesting. I can still run it pretty well. It still would not be my first choice to carry, at all. BUT, they are incredibly reliable. I already had several holsters. And I had about 20 mags for it out in the garage. Sooooo, a spare gun is spare gun. I would not hesitate to stuff some CorBon solid .40 in it and have a 12+1 woods gun. If I have to sell it,I can always get my money back out of it.

Overall it was just a fully cocked and unlocked trigger with a 3/4” reset. If I wanted a “people management trigger”, I would run a Beretta D or a Sig DAK. The LEM was my least favorite issued pistol, but I must say they ran well and had very few problems (early on we replaced every firing pin with an updated design, but that was about it.).

I don’t think the shooting world will suffer too much with the demise of the LEM.
I will hold onto the LEM, at least for now.

68744

Tell me about the magazine in the photo... if you don’t mind.

[HeavyDuty]

HK brings in guns in batches and the less popular guns may only get a batch or two a year. Many gun peddlers will either mistake unavailable for discontinued. The less honest ones will lie about them being discontinued in hopes you will buy buy something else they have or can get BBC quicker.

Get *what* quicker?

[HCM]

Get *what* quicker?

what ever auto text thinks HK fans want to hear about