What is most efficient way of becoming proficient [Archive]

GJM

02-08-2021, 11:49 PM

If I had it all over to do again, and wanted the process to be as efficient as possible, I would:

First get high quality technical shooting instruction, followed by a class like Gunsite 250 to understand something about tactics. Live fire as much as possible. Dry fire less at first so as not to burn in bad reps. Increase dry fire as you start to understand what you are doing. Compete regularly so you can stress your technique and get a reality check on where you are. Periodically get high level instruction (Leatham, Stoeger, JJ level) to diagnose problems. Study what is available online. Watch videos of yourself and other shooters. Pray for 9mm ammo to come down in price.

Eyesquared

02-09-2021, 12:25 AM

I think efficiency depends a lot on how much money vs time you have + how capable someone is when it comes to telling truth from BS when it comes to shooting related info. I don't think it should take as long as many people make it out to be. I think someone who is reasonably smart and dedicated can easily make it to A class or M class within 1 year of starting to shoot.

For reference I'm now shooting at approximately an A-class level (based on most recent classifier + where I finish in my local match). I've been shooting for 2 years total, training seriously for USPSA for a little over 1 year. The first year of shooting I was seriously constrained in ammo, I shot less than 1k rounds that whole year. This past year I shot just under 9k rounds.

The things I did efficiently:
1. Learn as much as possible for cheap (listening to podcasts with top shooters, reading books, taking as much advantage as possible of video subscriptions).
2. Take time to dryfire
3. Train certain skills in dryfire and live fire according to need, rather than wasting ammo doing 1 shot reloads

The things I should have done differently:
1. Dry-fire more broadly (I neglected a lot of classifier skills like SHO, WHO, and reloads because I wanted to focus on "match performance" and we don't do much of that stuff in matches here)
2. Just plain dry fire more. There are gains to be made in terms of raw time that I just haven't gotten yet.

I will also add that I don't think anyone out there conveys everything a shooter needs to know in a 2-day class. In my view there's a lot to be gained from reading the right books about shooting to fill in all the gaps. There is a lot of stuff that is "common knowledge" in the shooting world that I don't think holds up very well. The only way to learn to identify that stuff is to have a very broad knowledge of shooting and be able to pick out what isn't consistent or doesn't make sense, which you can't accomplish with just what you learn in a 2 day class. Out of what I now know about shooting, I think what I learned in my first 2 day class covers maybe 5-10% of that.

Lester Polfus

02-09-2021, 12:54 AM

Kram

02-09-2021, 09:16 AM

I would dick around changing guns less. Going from TDA autoloaders to 1911s to .40 Glocks to 9mm Glocks was ruinously expensive at the time in my life when I did it. i could have used that money for more classes and ammo.

This 100%. I was young, single, and had a good job when I first got into shooting so I was buying way too many guns of various shapes and sizes. I would take a few classes a year with quality instructors but it didn't do me any good when I went to the range with a P7M8, 1911, wheel gun, P228, Glock, etc. I was a super SIMP (RIP Todd :( )

https://pistol-training.com/archives/70

The single biggest improvement I made in my shooting was selling off the buffet of guns I had, and started to focus on shooting a single platform (9mm Glocks.) Having the single platform to focus on and spending my $ on ammo / training vs more guns was the way to go.

LittleLebowski

02-09-2021, 09:21 AM

The single biggest improvement I made in my shooting was selling off the buffet of guns I had, and started to focus on shooting a single platform (9mm Glocks.) Having the single platform to focus on and spending my $ on ammo / training vs more guns was the way to go.

This.

vcdgrips

02-09-2021, 10:08 AM

What I did... I kid I kid...kind of

Seriously ----I started shooting a Glock on my own because they were "cool" and plentifully cheap to rent at my LGS/range.

I got lucky and in the fall of 90 or 91 I met somebody who had been to Gunsite in the late 70s and who was "competing" at weekly IPSC matches where he would typically shoot two different guns as "tactically" as possible.

Seeing him have to deal with multiple sets of everything and the economics of it all kind of scared me off off being serious about multiple platforms. He and his friends were extremely helpful re focusing on Glock (and to a lesser extent -1911) as my primary defensive carry pistol choice (which has remained constant since 1990.) I was also introduced to reloading, the magic of Kydex, the power of Surefire in the early 90's as well. Other mantras such as "one is none and two is one...and three is often better" and "buy quality cry once" were introduced as well.

I began "competing" where I learned to be safe and unconsciously competent in the manipulation of the gun freeing my mind to solve the tactical/accuracy issues at hand. Most "leagues" are populated by folks who are exceedingly generous with their time/talent/treasure. Our best local IPSC competitor was the first one who really taught me the my greatest lesson re reloading- "find a load that works for your use and move on. In a 1911 style gun, you can save yourself a lot of headache by sticking to a 230 RNL or 230 Plated/FMJ bullet." Given my tactical bend, He proscribed (and others) 5.4 to 5.6 of 231/HP-38 and 16 -18.5 recoil spring in a 5 inch steel gun. Load the ammo to 1.230 to 1.250, lube the gun well and shoot.

On a bedrock of quality local individualized instruction, I then went to my first "sleep away" class at Thunder Ranch in 2004. The rest is history.

1. Learn how to be consciously safe with the gun

2. Compete and learn how to be unconsciously competent in manipulating the gun so you can get your hits

3. Identify and partake of local quality instruction (formal or informal)

4. Go to a sleep away school with somebody who can DIAGNOSE/TEACH/SHOOT in that order.

5. Apply what you have learned such that you are perfectly practicing

6. Performance track with a timer

7. Hone your craft and share what you have learned with like minded others.

Eyesquared

02-09-2021, 11:20 AM

miller_man

02-09-2021, 07:31 PM

I think if I could do it all over again, from the beginning - go ALL in on competition (and go to the red dot way earlier). Get to USPSA A class/M class as fast as possible. Every other thing to do with shooting would be pretty easy/simple I'd think.

I spent probably almost 3 years not going "full gamer", shooting my G19 (with competition gear) and even 34 from aiwb (competition gun but NOT GAMER GEAR!). All I think I did was slow down/make harder the process of learning to shoot fast + accurate. Get the gear, learn the game, learn the skills, master pistol shooting.

Nothing wrong with doing those other things and I had fun and enjoyed it. Probably gonna shoot a local match in Open minor soon cause it sounds fun and I want to. But for me, finally getting to be more of the shooter I've wanted to be, has come faster/easier from being ALL in on competition shooting.

MVS

02-09-2021, 07:58 PM

I forgot to add that having a "can-do" attitude is pretty much a necessity. In my view most people set limitations on themselves by thinking they need to check certain boxes like go to a class or shoot 10000 rounds before they can really shoot well.

Within a couple months of starting to shoot seriously, I was able to pass "The Test", shoot mid-90s on a 25 yard B8, shoot a 2.28s clean Bill Drill, and shoot El Pres in around 6-8s. Nothing amazing in the grand scheme of things but up to that point I had less than 3k rounds fired in my life and no formal training. Most of these things really aren't that hard for someone who practices regularly.

Good for you, and I mean that. It simply isn't true across the board. I know plenty of people who will never reach that level even though they have put in far more work. Age, talent, eyesight, there are all kinds of things that make some people naturally more suited for the shooting sports than others. There are many people who will try to make A/Master and never will, but not for lack of trying.

Eyesquared

02-09-2021, 08:26 PM

Good for you, and I mean that. It simply isn't true across the board. I know plenty of people who will never reach that level even though they have put in far more work. Age, talent, eyesight, there are all kinds of things that make some people naturally more suited for the shooting sports than others. There are many people who will try to make A/Master and never will, but not for lack of trying.

I agree that many people will never make it but I think that has more to do with their understanding of training, their mindset and their motivation than any physical attributes. Most people lack motivation, but the ones who have it often lack an understanding of how to train or simply lack the understanding of shooting needed to fix their shooting issues.

I have age on my side but I have never considered myself to have natural talent with anything athletic or requiring hand eye coordination. I was one of those "always picked last in PE class" guys when I was a kid and for good reason. I'm not very strong either, I lifted weights very casually in college but wasn't disciplined enough to make any big gains, at best I sort of made up for my lack of physical activity in high school. My eyesight is actually terrible. Myopia worse than -15.00 in each eye (not a typo, without my glasses I have to hold things 2" in front of my face to read), and astigmatism on top of that. I am sure there are people who are more disadvantaged than me in terms of physical attributes but I would consider myself to be well below average in terms of "natural physical talent". I don't intend to be argumentative but I truly believe that natural physical attributes have very little to do with being successful in the action shooting sports.

MVS

02-09-2021, 08:47 PM

I agree that many people will never make it but I think that has more to do with their understanding of training, their mindset and their motivation than any physical attributes. Most people lack motivation, but the ones who have it often lack an understanding of how to train or simply lack the understanding of shooting needed to fix their shooting issues.

I have age on my side but I have never considered myself to have natural talent with anything athletic or requiring hand eye coordination. I was one of those "always picked last in PE class" guys when I was a kid and for good reason. I'm not very strong either, I lifted weights very casually in college but wasn't disciplined enough to make any big gains, at best I sort of made up for my lack of physical activity in high school. My eyesight is actually terrible. Myopia worse than -15.00 in each eye (not a typo, without my glasses I have to hold things 2" in front of my face to read), and astigmatism on top of that. I am sure there are people who are more disadvantaged than me in terms of physical attributes but I would consider myself to be well below average in terms of "natural physical talent".

Interesting. I have been shooting for decades. Until recently that was mostly "tactically oriented". A few years ago unhappy with my progress even though I had attended dozens of class and practiced frequently, I decided to compete. To my amazement I only classified "C" class despite being athletic, having good vision, and years of experience shooting. After that I found a mentor, bought every book, watched every video, dry practiced daily for 30-45 minutes using Steve Anderson program (and later Stoeger), once the weather allowed I was live firing 2-3 times a week 150-200 rounds a session. First with Seeklanders program then Stoeger. By the end of the next season shooting every match I could, becoming an RO, helping with set up, I had made it all of the way to, wait for it, B class. Whoopie. I was discouraged but kept working and was almost to A when I encountered health problems that stopped my shooting for almost 2 years. Just getting back into it heavy now.

Eyesquared

02-09-2021, 09:00 PM

Interesting. I have been shooting for decades. Until recently that was mostly "tactically oriented". A few years ago unhappy with my progress even though I had attended dozens of class and practiced frequently, I decided to compete. To my amazement I only classified "C" class despite being athletic, having good vision, and years of experience shooting. After that I found a mentor, bought every book, watched every video, dry practiced daily for 30-45 minutes using Steve Anderson program (and later Stoeger), once the weather allowed I was live firing 2-3 times a week 150-200 rounds a session. First with Seeklanders program then Stoeger. By the end of the next season shooting every match I could, becoming an RO, helping with set up, I had made it all of the way to, wait for it, B class. Whoopie. I was discouraged but kept working and was almost to A when I encountered health problems that stopped my shooting for almost 2 years. Just getting back into it heavy now.

I will say that classification is kind of fickle and there are certain things you have to embrace to get a good classification that probably run counter to all the tactically oriented training you did. In my experience if a good shooter shoots classifications with the attitude that they're "shooting safe" or if they try to guarantee alphas, the time ends up getting on top of them. The ratio of shooting to doing other stuff is pretty high on most classifiers so taking an extra tenth to aim each shot adds up extremely fast. Even if you have the raw skills to shoot at the next classification level it's easy to ruin it by shooting with the wrong mindset and trading too much time for "guaranteed" alphas. On top of all that it really depends on how many classifiers you get to shoot, so I tend to just use my match placement to judge where I'm at.

I should also add that I spent a lot of time reading and watching videos to learn about shooting long before I ever touched a gun. I think there's still some old thread on here I made back when I was in living on campus about training with a SIRT gun and 0 live fire.

JCN

02-09-2021, 09:18 PM

Interesting. I have been shooting for decades. Until recently that was mostly "tactically oriented". A few years ago unhappy with my progress even though I had attended dozens of class and practiced frequently, I decided to compete. To my amazement I only classified "C" class despite being athletic, having good vision, and years of experience shooting. After that I found a mentor, bought every book, watched every video, dry practiced daily for 30-45 minutes using Steve Anderson program (and later Stoeger), once the weather allowed I was live firing 2-3 times a week 150-200 rounds a session. First with Seeklanders program then Stoeger. By the end of the next season shooting every match I could, becoming an RO, helping with set up, I had made it all of the way to, wait for it, B class. Whoopie. I was discouraged but kept working and was almost to A when I encountered health problems that stopped my shooting for almost 2 years. Just getting back into it heavy now.

I never touched a gun until I was nearly 40 years old (end of 2015).
Videos and books for learning.
Shot timer and video early on.
Used published standard tests to benchmark.

Then went off and for enjoyment and education bought and familiarized myself with different calibers, modes of action, revolvers, etc so I could pick up any type of gun and know how it worked. I wanted a broad mechanical education on firearms so if I were ever in a situation where I had to use a gun that wasn't mine, I wouldn't be at a disadvantage.

In mid-2019 I was getting bored, so decided to compete. Initial classification was "B" and made "A" six months after that.
Four months later, I decided to start dry firing in earnest and put myself on a high rep, high focus efficient dry fire routine and made "M" two months after that.

So 6 months to A and 6 months to M.

Duration of practice doesn't guarantee results. Quality of practice does. Both for dry and live fire.
I actively tried learning from every single trigger press and movement.

But I understand the mechanics so much better than if I were passively listening to someone tell me something.

Efficient way of becoming proficient?
Don't make excuses for why you can't. Claw and fight for every opportunity to learn and improve. If you're not focused mentally, it's a waste of time. You should get done with practice emotionally and physically exhausted.

Timer, video, red dot gun. Dry fire and confirm with live fire. Compare to published standards. Never say "that's good enough."

DDTSGM

02-10-2021, 12:00 AM

I'm semi-joking when I mention this, BUT from my reading of the forum to this point, I would say that one of the best ways to become proficient is to eschew raising a family and most other pursuits. Not being critical in saying that, it just seems that many who post on here about attaining high classifications don't have the family load.

Myself, I always thought I'd wait until the kids were grown, fortunately for me that didn't work out, as my second set of kids when I was mid-40's were a blessing.

There are a few things I would have done differently:

1) get outside the LE centric firearms community earlier and ventured to more competition oriented courses well before I actually did;

2) shot USPSA at my first opportunity rather than waiting until my gun club started a league;

3) spent my money earlier on a competition pistol and gear rather than relying on LE duty rig and pistol;

4) developed a more USPSA oriented dry-fire program earlier, I had the books, just focused on LE related drills;

5) this should probably be first and has been mentioned ad infinitum in this thread and others: actually push myself out of my established comfort zone.

Glock26

02-10-2021, 12:44 AM

I shot a gun for the first time around August 2018. My first purchase was picked up on October 1, 2018. First competition was July 13, 2019 and made GM in CO on September 13, 2020. At least 8 of these months were spent traveling with no gun.

CO Progression:

6/27/2020 - C (41.3320)
7/26/2020 - B (71.3752)
8/2/2020 - A (78.1085)
8/16/2020 - M (85.9280)
9/13/2020 - GM (96.0323)

I took one Stoeger Skills & Drills class in March 2020, though, I don't think it was essential to my progress. This is because I already read everything that Stoeger wrote and experimented with the wealth of knowledge in his books.

I do not know of anyone who has picked up a gun for the first time and reached GM faster than me (Stoeger, for example, initially classified as GM but he already had years of experience shooting). That being said, there are many ways to make this progression more efficient.

My journey took roughly 770 days.

Time to first purchase: ~60 days
Additional time to first competition: 285
Additional time to first dot usage: 301
Additional time to GM: 127

Theoretical improvements to bring total to around 121 days:

Time to first purchase: 1
Additional time to first competition: 30 (first month spent on gun manipulation and doubles)
Additional time to first dot usage: 0 (compete with a dot from the get go)
Additional time to GM: 90 (alternate between pure alpha and pure speed for stages)

What's needed:

A mentality to be the best shooter in the world (nearly delusional level)
A highly observant individual that is always willing to adjust technique
A person who doesn't second guess his or her gear
Roughly 10K rounds (not so much where they're meaningless, but enough to understand how a gun behaves)
A mentor of the same mentality who has already knows how to shoot that can communicate the nuances of various techniques (Add at least 6 months if the person has to self-discover)
At least 4 hours a day that can be dedicated to shooting
An obsessed learner
All classifier match at the end (this can literally save 5 weeks, if a person can consistently shoot GM HF)

All this assumes that making GM equates to proficiency.

Doc_Glock

02-10-2021, 09:56 AM

What is most efficient way of becoming proficient

This is a much better question than the one I posed.

JCN

02-10-2021, 10:04 AM

JCN

02-10-2021, 10:16 AM

My journey took roughly 770 days.

Time to first purchase: ~60 days
Additional time to first competition: 285
Additional time to first dot usage: 301
Additional time to GM: 127

Theoretical improvements to bring total to around 121 days:

Time to first purchase: 1
Additional time to first competition: 30 (first month spent on gun manipulation and doubles)
Additional time to first dot usage: 0 (compete with a dot from the get go)
Additional time to GM: 90 (alternate between pure alpha and pure speed for stages)

What's needed:

A mentality to be the best shooter in the world (nearly delusional level)
A highly observant individual that is always willing to adjust technique
A person who doesn't second guess his or her gear
Roughly 10K rounds (not so much where they're meaningless, but enough to understand how a gun behaves)
A mentor of the same mentality who has already knows how to shoot that can communicate the nuances of various techniques (Add at least 6 months if the person has to self-discover)
At least 4 hours a day that can be dedicated to shooting
An obsessed learner
All classifier match at the end (this can literally save 5 weeks, if a person can consistently shoot GM HF)

All this assumes that making GM equates to proficiency.

Extremely impressive! Congrats!

It’s interesting to note that if you take the 770 days of 4h/day and multiply that by 4 to bring it down to a casual 1h/day.
That’s 3000 days or about 8.5 years.

That seems about right.
I think the theoretical 120 days might not be possible due to the limit of synapse formation and muscle strength / coordination. There is probably a limit of how fast one can build muscle memory.

It is seriously impressive the dedication and hours you put in! Congrats!

Glock26

02-10-2021, 11:11 AM

Extremely impressive! Congrats!

It’s interesting to note that if you take the 770 days of 4h/day and multiply that by 4 to bring it down to a casual 1h/day.
That’s 3000 days or about 8.5 years.

That seems about right.
I think the theoretical 120 days might not be possible due to the limit of synapse formation and muscle strength / coordination. There is probably a limit of how fast one can build muscle memory.

It is seriously impressive the dedication and hours you put in! Congrats!

Thanks!

As for the theoretical 120, I believe the absolute limit is ~2 days with the perfect individual. But at some point, the efficiency is not really due to the process but the raw talent of the shooter.

I've spent quite a few hours thinking about this question. I think nearly everyone has the potential for GM proficiency, but everyone takes some amount of time to discover the correct mentality that is the catalyst for an efficient process. From the anecdotes of other GMs, progress seems to be split into two groups: (1) those who made GM quickly and (2) those who eventually made GM over many years. The only difference that I can gather is that the people in group 2 usually start off thinking that making GM is a fantasy. Once one truly believes that they are proficient, the actual proficiency seems to quickly follow.

DDTSGM

02-10-2021, 01:12 PM

That’s what I’m talking about regarding making excuses.
I have a very demanding full time job, a toddler at the time I started competition and was basically a single parent for the year I went from B to M.

It’s quicker if you’re young without other responsibilities, but seriously we are only talking about a 30-60 min daily dry fire commitment to make M... IF you have quality metrics and self assessment skills.

JCN, I'm happy for you. From what you've briefly written, your life hasn't been near as crammed as mine, but we think what we think.

In terms of that’s what I’m talking about regarding making excuses what I said was simply a statement of what I felt is important, and the choices we make. Yeah, I could have squeezed in 60 minutes a day of dry fire, but to ME it wouldn't have been down time, and at the end of most of my days, downtime was what I needed.

Now I'm 66, free and willing, we will see where it goes. As long as it doesn't interfere with grandkids, motorcycling or camping.

JCN

02-10-2021, 02:17 PM

JCN, I'm happy for you. From what you've briefly written, your life hasn't been near as crammed as mine, but we think what we think.

In terms of that’s what I’m talking about regarding making excuses what I said was simply a statement of what I felt is important, and the choices we make. Yeah, I could have squeezed in 60 minutes a day of dry fire, but to ME it wouldn't have been down time, and at the end of most of my days, downtime was what I needed.

Now I'm 66, free and willing, we will see where it goes. As long as it doesn't interfere with grandkids, motorcycling or camping.

I think after your lifetime of service, you deserve some time to just relax and ride motorcycles!

I think it takes a certain type of addiction to love the chase of objective performance.

DDTSGM

02-10-2021, 03:24 PM

I think after your lifetime of service, you deserve some time to just relax and ride motorcycles!

I think it takes a certain type of addiction to love the chase of objective performance.

I think it's been mentioned, but some folks just enjoy the fellowship and don't necessarily want to spend the time required to compete for the win, just don't want to be last. I think that is okay.

BTW, I wrote an epistle in response to your PM, sorry 'bout that. Hope your wife is doing well.