A Mozambique question

[Glenn E. Meyer]

1. I have joined USPSA as is the game easiest for me to shoot in my area and it's fun.

2. Looked at this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46717-Maryland-Shooting/page2

and it jogged my memory, the club leader gave me an orientation lecture and a shooting test. I asked about Mozambique drills (not with purpose, just asking about how matches run), he said they were not allowed. I searched and found on the Enos forum that they were forbidden due to difficulty in scoring.

We shot them in IDPA all the time and seeing the shooting I posted, it seems like something one might want to include. I know it's a game. I like it, so not trying to start a flame war - which will start anyway. :p

[JCN]

Generally philosophically, USPSA has less engagement rules which allows shooters more freedom in “solving” a stage problem.

So if you see a scoring surface, you get to decide your own time versus points distribution.

Add to that, major and minor have different points calculus for head shot C zones, it’s against the philosophy.

I will say that I have shot matches where they have accomplished Mozambiques by using two targets overlaid.

67228

I also was at a USPSA match where there was a stage where all the body shots required two shots and the separate head targets required one.

USPSA just wouldn’t dictate that you HAVE to take a head shot when body is available. Your choice is a key thing for USPSA.

Enjoy the matches! Maybe just suspend judgement and try to get into the swing of things before asking about IDPA things in USPSA matches. There are often reasons why things are done differently and rather than change rules for 20,000+ competitors, work within the rules to accomplish what you’re trying to accomplish.

[nycnoob]

> A Mozambique question


I have read your post four times and I still do not know what the question or topic you wish to discuss is.

I get it, you like the Mozambique drill (AKA DB Modified LAPD SWAT Qual https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5515-Week-47-DB-Modified-LAPD-SWAT-Qual), and it is not allowed in USPSA but is in IDPA. So whats the topic?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We shot them in IDPA all the time and seeing the shooting I posted, it seems like something one might want to include.

Will it get you killed in the street?

1. It seems to me that practicing failure to stop drills is a good thing. At tactical classes and events like the NTi, we shot failure to stop targets that wouldn't drop unless you performed a good Mozambique sequence.

2. Where can I practice such? Most indoor ranges frown at fast, draw and multiple shots. One in TX would if you were checked out.

3. Matches seem a place to practice such under some movement and time stress.

4. Does a particular game allow you to practice a useful technique? Shooting from retention, Mozambiques, strong hand weak hand, standing on your head?

5. It seems that if USPSA want to have a menu of useful practice targets, it might do such. Yes, at my match, they did have some staggered targets as shown but why do that instead of just a straight forward one - except as Enos's forum said - range lawyer disputes over scoring? Solving your problem as 'freedom' - that's nice. There are rule constraints, so you are not totally free.

Just asking and not wanting the grand USPA/IDPA battle to start. I'm happy to shoot the staggered ones.

[LOKNLOD]

You can go through a stage shooting only at the head box if you want. If it's normal scoring (not a fixed round count) you can shoot 3 rounds on every target if you want. You do you. It's just time and ammo.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Sure I get that. Just wondering about the rationale. In fact, I did that to empty out a mag rather that drop one with rounds. Being a FOG and not worrying about winning, I can get the reasonable trigger practice.

Like I said, it's fun.

[nycnoob]

Where can I practice such?

I live in Brooklyn NYC so the only answer I have is "in your bedroom, with dry fire" and
probably "get a coolfire trainer" Keepers was really into them a few years ago so they are
probably pretty good. Then at least you can use any target you like including photos of
peoples faces.

For the range I often use more abstract targets like the 3-2-1
http://pistol-training.com/drills/3-two-1 and perhaps the B8 DevGru 1-3-5-7-4 drill using b8 targets
(use a viking tactics target hung b8 side facing you, you will have to hang it vertically but for this drill it may be what you want)


Although it is a bit limiting to use abstract drills, there is some benefits in not having others know too
much about what you are doing or practicing.

[miller_man]

I guess USPSA cannot dictate a mozb be shot on targets, but if you want to shoot any/all targets for every stage as 2 body/1 head - knock yourself out.

If your thinking you just need to be pre programmed or just practice always shooting a mozambique - well, Mr. White has great discussions about all training having "training scars".

[Eyesquared]

Will it get you killed in the street?

1. It seems to me that practicing failure to stop drills is a good thing. At tactical classes and events like the NTi, we shot failure to stop targets that wouldn't drop unless you performed a good Mozambique sequence.

2. Where can I practice such? Most indoor ranges frown at fast, draw and multiple shots. One in TX would if you were checked out.

3. Matches seem a place to practice such under some movement and time stress.

4. Does a particular game allow you to practice a useful technique? Shooting from retention, Mozambiques, strong hand weak hand, standing on your head?

5. It seems that if USPSA want to have a menu of useful practice targets, it might do such. Yes, at my match, they did have some staggered targets as shown but why do that instead of just a straight forward one - except as Enos's forum said - range lawyer disputes over scoring? Solving your problem as 'freedom' - that's nice. There are rule constraints, so you are not totally free.

Just asking and not wanting the grand USPA/IDPA battle to start. I'm happy to shoot the staggered ones.

1. None of the cardboard targets in USPSA will drop in the first place so I don't follow where you are going with this one. If you have been involved with the logistics of setting up and administering a fair match, you understand how hard it is to make sure activating and moving targets behave equitably for all shooters.

2. Wish I could help you but I have no knowledge of NY ranges. If you keep going to matches start asking people where they practice or maybe join your local club. Mine allows club members to borrow a bay for practice with no real restrictions except caliber and obviously no rounds should escape the berm.

3. Matches are very very poor practice. You spend 6 hours on the range and you get to shoot for maybe 5 minutes total, much less than that if you're good. If you want to practice mozambique drills I recommend dry fire and finding access to a good range.

4. Strong hand and weak hand shooting happens in USPSA. Regarding some of the more esoteric kinds of shooting, I don't think so and honestly I wouldn't want one to. Mozambiques are benign but I have 0 desire to be at a range that is open to all participants where people are shooting from retention, laying on their backs, etc. I have seen enough borderline unsafe gunhandling as is.

5. USPSA org sees itself as an amateur sport and not "training" for whatever defensive or tactical application you likely have in mind. The ability to run a fair and interesting match (as in a sporting event) trumps whatever supposed training value people get from the match. Most of the shooters likely agree or else they would go shoot IDPA. Not a criticism of IDPA, just stating a fact.

[YVK]

For some reason I thought I had posted this before I left for my gym. Wonder if I posted it somewhere else?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76FZsIDXYHA&feature=youtu.be



Matches give enough mozambiquing, or mozambesque, practice, see first two target arrays.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Forget it folks, I was simply asking why it wasn't part of matches as the technique seems part of what folks might encounter, esp. given Tom Givens' post.

So, the mention of drop targets was not to have them in USPSA but to mention in that in training events (of which I've done many), we used reactive targets, some that needed the head shot to drop. John Hearne (a member here, specializes in such targets). The idea was that Mozambiques are found elsewhere - IDPA and training, so why not UPSA?

I thank folks for the practice suggestions - I am well aware of such. Dry fire for a Mozambique can't really be accomplished with a 1911 or Glock. Yes, I can and have with a SIRT many times. I know this. Again, it was why they weren't allowed at USPSA matches as they seem part of the ecology of handgun usage. Scoring debates was the reason I saw. Is there another?

Matches are not practice, I know that - nor are they training. That's why I have trained with Givens, Rehn, Spaulding, Ayoob, Insights, gone to the NTI, others, and Tom's conference. It's a shame I can't go anymore as I need to stay close to home for family reasons of health.

About shooting from retention - I shot IDPA for about 15 of so years, two to three times a week - nobody gone got shot from retention with match attendance of 50 to 60 shooters. Didn't see anyone get shot in a class from retention. You might as well argue that AIWB is esoteric and dangerous and yet folks do it. Look at this one: https://blog.krtraining.com/lessons-from-an-accidental-discharge/


If the student was using an IWB or AIWB holster, it’s more likely an injury would have resulted (NOT a knock on AIWB/IWB holsters, as I use both – just an observation). If you do use an AIWB holster, be extra diligent to check for possible obstructions, holster slowly, and push your hips forward before and while you are holstering so that you are not at risk to put a bullet through your femoral artery if the unthinkable happens.

So why do folks do that? Like I said, I would like to see empirical evidence that match retention accidents are common. The NDs I saw, including one that almost hit my foot, were finger on the trigger.

One handed shooting and off handed shooting - why that? Well, one could argue that it is for being injured (or is it a fun game point?). I know one should be able to do this as when I broke my dominant wrist, I was signed up for an Advanced Tactical class with Rehn and did it one handed. Paul Gomez was in the class, BTW. I also did Mas' LFI Stressfire, with one hand, nondominate - Wayne Dobbs was helping, don't know if he remember me. Or when we ran save the baby at Givens'. Got on the cover of a Given's newsletter way back when. Marty Hayes took the picture

67245

About finding ranges to practice such - they are nonexistant here and most commercial ranges frown on the more rapid fire, draw from holster practices. The club here does a practice session but it is usually just practicing a stage for the real match.

I get it that it a game. I was curious to the reason as it seemed a fun thing to do in a game as an official configuration as compared to making up a pseudo-one. I know it is not 'training'.

Am I not clear now?

So to repeat myself -I was just wondering why? Again thanks for the discussion.

[Clusterfrack]

Will it get you killed in the street?

1. It seems to me that practicing failure to stop drills is a good thing. At tactical classes and events like the NTi, we shot failure to stop targets that wouldn't drop unless you performed a good Mozambique sequence.

2. Where can I practice such? Most indoor ranges frown at fast, draw and multiple shots. One in TX would if you were checked out.

3. Matches seem a place to practice such under some movement and time stress.

4. Does a particular game allow you to practice a useful technique? Shooting from retention, Mozambiques, strong hand weak hand, standing on your head?

5. It seems that if USPSA want to have a menu of useful practice targets, it might do such. Yes, at my match, they did have some staggered targets as shown but why do that instead of just a straight forward one - except as Enos's forum said - range lawyer disputes over scoring? Solving your problem as 'freedom' - that's nice. There are rule constraints, so you are not totally free.

Just asking and not wanting the grand USPA/IDPA battle to start. I'm happy to shoot the staggered ones.

Don’t worry so much about drills and scenarios. When you get good at USPSA, you will have subconscious mastery of any type of shot combination. Shoot large open target, transition to small high risk target? Shoot activator, open target, partial swinger? None of this is a big deal, and the Mozambique isn’t different in any meaningful way. You’ll have seen it all in so many ways that you don’t have to think about it.

What might get you killed in the streets is not also continuing to train defensive tactics as well.

[Eyesquared]

Forget it folks, I was simply asking why it wasn't part of matches as the technique seems part of what folks might encounter, esp. given Tom Givens' post.

So, the mention of drop targets was not to have them in USPSA but to mention in that in training events (of which I've done many), we used reactive targets, some that needed the head shot to drop. John Hearne (a member here, specializes in such targets). The idea was that Mozambiques are found elsewhere - IDPA and training, so why not UPSA?

I thank folks for the practice suggestions - I am well aware of such. Dry fire for a Mozambique can't really be accomplished with a 1911 or Glock. Yes, I can and have with a SIRT many times. I know this. Again, it was why they weren't allowed at USPSA matches as they seem part of the ecology of handgun usage. Scoring debates was the reason I saw. Is there another?

Matches are not practice, I know that - nor are they training. That's why I have trained with Givens, Rehn, Spaulding, Ayoob, Insights, gone to the NTI, others, and Tom's conference. It's a shame I can't go anymore as I need to stay close to home for family reasons of health.

About shooting from retention - I shot IDPA for about 15 of so years, two to three times a week - nobody gone got shot from retention with match attendance of 50 to 60 shooters. Didn't see anyone get shot in a class from retention. You might as well argue that AIWB is esoteric and dangerous and yet folks do it. Look at this one: https://blog.krtraining.com/lessons-from-an-accidental-discharge/



So why do folks do that? Like I said, I would like to see empirical evidence that match retention accidents are common. The NDs I saw, including one that almost hit my foot, were finger on the trigger.

One handed shooting and off handed shooting - why that? Well, one could argue that it is for being injured (or is it a fun game point?). I know one should be able to do this as when I broke my dominant wrist, I was signed up for an Advanced Tactical class with Rehn and did it one handed. Paul Gomez was in the class, BTW. I also did Mas' LFI Stressfire, with one hand, nondominate - Wayne Dobbs was helping, don't know if he remember me. Or when we ran save the baby at Givens'. Got on the cover of a Given's newsletter way back when. Marty Hayes took the picture

67245

About finding ranges to practice such - they are nonexistant here and most commercial ranges frown on the more rapid fire, draw from holster practices. The club here does a practice session but it is usually just practicing a stage for the real match.

I get it that it a game. I was curious to the reason as it seemed a fun thing to do in a game as an official configuration as compared to making up a pseudo-one. I know it is not 'training'.

Am I not clear now?

So to repeat myself -I was just wondering why? Again thanks for the discussion.

I think I understand better what your question is now. I think the main additional answer is that most people don't care one way or the other what order you shoot or number of rounds you shoot at a target in USPSA. The typical shooter just wants to have nice gear and hang out with their buddies. The ones who want to improve at USPSA are chasing improved USPSA performance, the Mozambique has no real significance to them in the context of the game. The few tactical guys I've seen at matches generally just accept that the rules are what they are and embrace the artificiality of the game. I shot a match with a Limited GM who's an AFSOC officer, and he competes with a $5000 2011 and plays the game the same way as any other USPSA shooter.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

BTW, for a laugh - I showed the picture to the training head of our local university department (I was a terrorist for them) and he said it showed great form. My art major daughter was appreciative of the composition as it implied force and movement. Haha. My research kids used to use that as our group's logo when they did presentations. I suppose today I would be fired for that as not being PC.

IIRC, one well known someone got in trouble as his solution to save the baby was to toss it like a football behind the truck from a distance. That's so he could get a two handed grip. GAMER!

[JCN]

BTW, for a laugh - I showed the picture to the training head of our local university department (I was a terrorist for them) and he said it showed great form. My art major daughter was appreciative of the composition as it implied force and movement. Haha. My research kids used to use that as our group's logo when they did presentations. I suppose today I would be fired for that as not being PC.

IIRC, one well known someone got in trouble as his solution to save the baby was to toss it like a football behind the truck from a distance. That's so he could get a two handed grip. GAMER!

The other question for you is why Mozambique if you have a good and confident head shot?
Like Clusterfrack said, gaming helps you know your target and your ability / limitations.

If someone is advancing at me and I can place a headshot easily and quickly, why would I start with the body?

I had to attend a holster class and one of the last drills the instructor did was “running man” where he physically advanced the target at you and you had to put 5 rounds on before it got to you.

I was confident enough that I put 5 rounds on the face left handed. Why would I bother with body and transition if I could just stop the threat earlier if the target was available.

Get an Airsoft gun and practice in your basement.
But you can absolutely practice it with a Glock in dry fire.

Either with a commercial reset trigger or by “calling your shots.” If you have a good trigger press, then your shot will go where your sights are at. Whether or not you actually press the trigger.

I own land and have a steel triple dropper target... I almost never use it because it doesn’t really add much to my shot calling and shooting.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The standard dogma is that you shoot for COM as it is easiest to hit, given the area. The head shot is for a failure to stop. If you disagree with that, it is your privilege. It is more of an OH, SHIT response.

Yes, I can practice without a trigger pull, but I prefer to have one, again YMMV. That's why I SIRTainly practice.

The other day, I happily SW 642'ed for a bit, after checking the gun quite a few times to avoid a bad thing. My wife killing me for a hole in the new house (that's a joke). I could have used my blue gun 642 and imagined it.

As far as not getting anything from drop targets, well, that's your call. My evil trainers made me do it. They can be bad mojo. Karly had a SWAT guy as a guest instructor with some drop targets. So I hit mine and folks say - hey, your beard is turning read. A fragment from the steel cut open my chin! Oy!

A debate over shaving the beard and getting excited - but direct pressure for a bit did it. Lesson, don't have a beard and take head shots - I suppose.

If I could I would take: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46737-John-Hearne-Cognitive-Pistol-w-Tactical-Anatomy-Whitehall-AR-07-31

John does a great job with his targets.

[nycnoob]

Forget it folks, I was simply asking why it wasn't part of matches . . .
So to repeat myself -I was just wondering why? Again thanks for the discussion.


There is much about the shooting world I find inexplicable: range rules, gun lore, practice session, so many questions about what people do and what they believe . . .

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yeah, IDPA has its share of stupid. What I'm really going to miss here is carbine matches. I think there is three gun around somewhere. Have to look into it. It would be weird with 10 round mags and the compliant rifles.

I haven't dry fired around the basement with the Mini-14 - I guess I should.

[JAD]

The other question for you is why Mozambique if you have a good and confident head shot?
.

That would be a good and relatively novel question in the software section.

[JCN]

The standard dogma is that you shoot for COM as it is easiest to hit, given the area. The head shot is for a failure to stop. If you disagree with that, it is your privilege. It is more of an OH, SHIT response.

Yes, I can practice without a trigger pull, but I prefer to have one, again YMMV. That's why I SIRTainly practice.

The other day, I happily SW 642'ed for a bit, after checking the gun quite a few times to avoid a bad thing. My wife killing me for a hole in the new house (that's a joke). I could have used my blue gun 642 and imagined it.

As far as not getting anything from drop targets, well, that's your call. My evil trainers made me do it. They can be bad mojo. Karly had a SWAT guy as a guest instructor with some drop targets. So I hit mine and folks say - hey, your beard is turning read. A fragment from the steel cut open my chin! Oy!

A debate over shaving the beard and getting excited - but direct pressure for a bit did it. Lesson, don't have a beard and take head shots - I suppose.

If I could I would take: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46737-John-Hearne-Cognitive-Pistol-w-Tactical-Anatomy-Whitehall-AR-07-31

John does a great job with his targets.

Yes. A lot of YMMV.

That latest video Tom posted about the Sheriff backing up at arms length while being struck by the stick and having to put 12 rounds into the body... at that distance, you’d have to be a pretty poor marksman to not be able to hit head.

The Sheriff was lucky the guy didn’t have a blade or edged weapon, but the dogma should be:

Train so that you are skilled enough to confidently take the best and most effective shot in the quickest time.

I don’t get much from a drop target because it doesn’t drop quickly enough and it only drops on one axis.

I prefer things like this:


https://youtu.be/YkvCm51vgBM

In real life on close steel I use frangible rounds only.

I’m fairly fast and comfortable in my accuracy. Three rounds from concealment onto a small square in under a second.


https://youtu.be/-AN1lvcUtxs

If I have more time I can do that on a head no problem.

USPSA taught me to call shots so I know where the rounds are going.

[YVK]

The other question for you is why Mozambique if you have a good and confident head shot..

There was a time when shooting FAST and, later, Gabe's standards was a big part of my routine and my aiwb draw was decent and all. I thought along the same lines, why not head. I then tested it in a class and even some matches and decided it wasn't happening outside 5 yards. No matter how good my 3x5 draw at 7 yards was. I was shooting irons then so perhaps the dot would give me more confidence. I still think that the liabilities and consequences of missing are high enough that taking lower probability shots has to have some building up to.

[JCN]

There was a time when shooting FAST and, later, Gabe's standards was a big part of my routine and my aiwb draw was decent and all. I thought along the same lines, why not head. I then tested it in a class and even some matches and decided it wasn't happening outside 5 yards. No matter how good my 3x5 draw at 7 yards was. I was shooting irons then so perhaps the dot would give me more confidence. I still think that the liabilities and consequences of missing are high enough that taking lower probability shots has to have some building up to.

I agree with you. I was talking about 5 yards and in... if someone has a bladed weapon and is advancing.
If they’re 5 yards and closing, I want them stopped RIGHT NOW.

You might not have time for the second or third shot of a Mozambique if they’re 5 yards and closing.
So why not go head or go bust.

[LOKNLOD]

IIRC, one well known someone got in trouble as his solution to save the baby was to toss it like a football behind the truck from a distance. That's so he could get a two handed grip. GAMER!

I was at a match with similar stage, one guy grabbed the baby's leg, shoved it into his waistband, and then run'n'gunned with baby flopping from his belt like Pat Mac's towel while shooting two-handed. Brilliant! :D

Also, therein lies the answer to your question:

I was simply asking why it wasn't part of matches

which you answered for yourself:

Matches are not practice, I know that - nor are they training.

Because there's no need to put it in the stages since they have nothing to do with practice or training. It's a game. Nothing more, nothing less, than that. :cool:

[NoTacTravis]

1. I have joined USPSA as is the game easiest for me to shoot in my area and it's fun.

2. Looked at this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46717-Maryland-Shooting/page2

and it jogged my memory, the club leader gave me an orientation lecture and a shooting test. I asked about Mozambique drills (not with purpose, just asking about how matches run), he said they were not allowed. I searched and found on the Enos forum that they were forbidden due to difficulty in scoring.

We shot them in IDPA all the time and seeing the shooting I posted, it seems like something one might want to include. I know it's a game. I like it, so not trying to start a flame war - which will start anyway. :p

This might be a bit of an outsiders perspective but I read the following link to refresh my memory a bit more in depth on the Mozambique and its history/development.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2017/5/18/the-mozambique-drill-a-history-and-how-to/

Your question to me then reads more as a "skills vs. tactics" question. The Mozambique has its roots in solving a military/swat type of tactical problem.

USPSA is (as I see it) more of a pure shooting skills sport. So it really isn't worried about tactics. So what you are noticing here is the same reason why IDPA has cover rules (tactics) and USPSA does not.

As a pure shooting skills sport, USPSA doesn't seem to really concern itself with defensive tactics and focuses only on testing purely who are the best pistol shooters on the planet. IDPA keeps a margin of "tactics" involved. Hence the incorporation of cover, concealment, and tactics like the Mozambique.

Since you posted this in the IPSC/USPSA section, I imagine you are probably going to get sport/pure skill/game based reactions the same as if you posted in a boxing forum why they don't allow leg kicks or take downs.

Just my take though as someone who has done more reading than shooting.

[Clusterfrack]

Some of us gamers also train DT...

[DDTSGM]

I agree with you. I was talking about 5 yards and in... if someone has a bladed weapon and is advancing.
If they’re 5 yards and closing, I want them stopped RIGHT NOW.

You might not have time for the second or third shot of a Mozambique if they’re 5 yards and closing.
So why not go head or go bust.

Which can you move out of the way faster - head or torso - might be one consideration in picking target zone.

Movement off threat axis versus straight back or stand your ground is also a viable tactic.

[Zincwarrior]

1. I have joined USPSA as is the game easiest for me to shoot in my area and it's fun.

2. Looked at this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46717-Maryland-Shooting/page2

and it jogged my memory, the club leader gave me an orientation lecture and a shooting test. I asked about Mozambique drills (not with purpose, just asking about how matches run), he said they were not allowed. I searched and found on the Enos forum that they were forbidden due to difficulty in scoring.

We shot them in IDPA all the time and seeing the shooting I posted, it seems like something one might want to include. I know it's a game. I like it, so not trying to start a flame war - which will start anyway. :p

Run and Gun focuses on the Run part. Waddle and Shoot focuses on the shoot part. :cool::rolleyes:
Also, the A scoring area of a USPSA target is even smaller than the down 0 scoring area of the new IDPA target.
For the record its easy to stage stacked targets requiring head shots. Its definitely not uncommon. The worst for me is the dread combo of one target vertically like normal and the other upside down behind it. Shooting that tends to mess me up.


Just enjoy that USPSA has lots of steel and no 'shoot me first' vest requirements.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

True. I understand that different games have different scoring for various scenarios and problems. Certainly, football and basketball do.

This was one possible problem to be in the game and it was not included because of scoring arguments but then simulated with truncated targets within the rule structure as compared to an explicit problem.

Critiques of organizational/match orthopraxy is like a religious argument to some.

Running - not for my old body. Like Zinc, I will sedately move. I note seeing young runners sometimes fall down and go boom. One gentleman slide past his planned firing position and had to return to hit, throwing his plan down the drain. A couple almost tripped on the box. However, in IDPA, I did see a guy run and fall flat on his face, that was scary.

It's not training - got that, trained my butt off in my time. On the IDPA side, truly annoying was a guy who decided to be realistic and had to yell, DROP the gun - at each target. He lasted one match.

Tueller world - yep, in training moving off line in a pattern to disrupt the charger was taught and practiced. However, with Airsoft and masks, getting a head shot is a challenge, thus the COM first.

Thanks for the input.

[Zincwarrior]

I should note, clubs are always looking for people who want to help plan stages. You could design and submit a stage with a target covered by an NT except for the head or almost everything but the head. There are multiple sites that have compilations of stages, and the is an FB site that does nothing but discuss stages. In addition to some of the cool packages to draw up stages, power point has a simple one I use (because I am simple). I can email it if you can't find.


Lets restate...CLUBS are ALWAYS looking for help. ;)

Just a few.
https://tridentstagedesigner.com/library.php
https://www.pinterest.com/b2g444/uspsa-stages/
http://www.k8nd.com/stage.htm

[Clusterfrack]

Running - not for my old body. Like Zinc, I will sedately move. I note seeing young runners sometimes fall down and go boom. ... A couple almost tripped on the box. However, in IDPA, I did see a guy run and fall flat on his face, that was scary.


As long as it's done safely, learning to move dynamically (whatever that means for a given individual) with a gun is good practice for the real world. Dryfire or a Bluegun is a great way to practice falling and getting up safely.



One gentleman slid past his planned firing position and had to return to hit, throwing his plan down the drain.


That happens a lot, and it isn't a problem--it's good training. Learning to calmly and safely get back on the rails after a stage plan goes awry is an important skill that has so many practical applications.



It's not training - got that, trained my butt off in my time. On the IDPA side, truly annoying was a guy who decided to be realistic and had to yell, DROP the gun - at each target. He lasted one match.

[FACEPALM] Did he also do a Sul-and-scan after each target array?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Running is good practice. If I saw 10 opponents, I would run -= but AWAY! A funny story - we were doing FOF at Karl Rehn's doing a stop and rob scenario. I was an unarmed patron. Thus, when the action started, I ran out the door. I kept running a significant distance. That was because in another run, the unarmed patron ran out and stopped just outside the door to watch. The 'crook' ran out the door, saw him and 'shot' him. OOPS!

In the same scenario, I was the crook. As I held up the clerk, he hit me in the noggin (helmeted up), whiffle bat - so I fell to the ground and there was his leg, which I proceeded to unload (Code Eagles) into his leg. Karl told the clerk that this didn't go as well as he thought it would.

[Joe]

USPSA has it right: mandating a "Mozambique Drill" is poor form for competition and training.
If you want to make shooters engage the head...MAKE them engage the head, don't TELL them. IDPA mandating a headshot robs you of the necessary stimulus to determine that the shot is necessary and problem solve in real time. IDPA Mozambiques are essentially "memory stages"...which that sport prohibits.
Make the shooters engage the head by placement of hard cover, soft cover, and no shoot targets. Not by making them memorize new target engagement rules for a single stage. Another case of the faux-tactics of IDPA...

[JCN]

USPSA has it right: mandating a "Mozambique Drill" is poor form for competition and training.
If you want to make shooters engage the head...MAKE them engage the head, don't TELL them. IDPA mandating a headshot robs you of the necessary stimulus to determine that the shot is necessary and problem solve in real time. IDPA Mozambiques are essentially "memory stages"...which that sport prohibits.
Make the shooters engage the head by placement of hard cover, soft cover, and no shoot targets. Not by making them memorize new target engagement rules for a single stage. Another case of the faux-tactics of IDPA...

Totally agree on this.

A Mozambique on a non-moving frontal target is like memorizing a Steel Challenge stage.
You can do it in your sleep and with your eyes closed.

Training to be able to hit small targets RIGHT NOW will allow you have the option of putting shots on the actual head rather than where the head was at the start of the drill.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I have my answer, the believers can stand down from both 'games'. :rolleyes: