Damn Red Dots!

[P.E. Kelley]

Just getting into the RDS game and while I love the return of my accuracy in shot making and calling (I can see what's happening
that I can't with poor eyes and Irons) I HATE them because I can't just "Out of Box" run a gun with them as well as I can Irons...cause I know where
them irons are!

Finding the Dot takes some (ok maybe quite a bit) of time with THAT gun's grip. No way in hell I could I just grab any RDS gun and run it.

So I hate them and love them. Just wait till I break a couple...I'll be back whining about that!

[Cheap Shot]

Welcome to the dark side :)

[olstyn]

Welcome to the dark side :)

Dark? But they put out light!

[JCN]

I think after you log more hours with dots, the difference between guns and optics will decrease.

How are you accounting for zero for your "out of the box" testing?
Can you do a quick 10 min of draws at a safety table at the match to lock in the presentation?

When I go to something with a steeper grip angle, I consciously will pick a visual spot 1-2" vertical from where I'm actually trying to drive the gun to and that helps compensate for the different grip presentation. Once the dot is visible in the window nearing extension the auto-correct in arms and position takes care of it from there.

[Borderland]

I use one on my MkII target pistol and I like it a lot. I put one on a carbine and went back to a scope. Not much of a an improvement for me at 100 yds. and was a disadvantage at 200. It's sets in a box unused.

[fatdog]

Easier transition for old open shooters...;)

[CCT125US]

I'm about as far from any sort of red dot expert as possible.

However, I find ever so slightly elevating the muzzle, and allowing the dot to "drop in" from the 12 o'clock position is pretty repeatable for me, across multiple guns I don't shoot frequently.

For me, visually it's as if the dot is returning after recoil. That's about the level of elevation I am describing. For me, it's predictable and repeatable.

[UNM1136]

I'm about as far from any sort of red dot expert as possible.

However, I find ever so slightly elevating the muzzle, and allowing the dot to "drop in" from the 12 o'clock position is pretty repeatable for me, across multiple guns I don't shoot frequently.

For me, visually it's as if the dot is returning after recoil. That's about the level of elevation I am describing. For me, it's predictable and repeatable.

Also replicates the Press Out, if you are into that at all....

pat

[P.E. Kelley]

Burris 8MOA FF3 on CZ Checkmate Open gun.

https://youtu.be/JI-9q59UBn8

Carry Optics coming up later this month.

[Archer1440]

Not to belabor the point, but a good RDS specific class can do wonders in compressing the time frame in getting RDS proficiency down to iron speed.

[P.E. Kelley]

Not to belabor the point, but a good RDS specific class can do wonders in compressing the time frame in getting RDS proficiency down to iron speed.

I have yet to take a shooting class, probably won't, but certainly a good idea for anyone who wants to shorted the curve.

[YVK]

I have yet to take a shooting class, probably won't, but certainly a good idea for anyone who wants to shorted the curve.

If memory serves me right, you were a GM. I think you'll get this thing down faster than most. But yeah, picking up a different gun every two weeks with dots on them might be less smooth than doing it with irons.

[ASH556]

Dots and irons aside I think grip angle is overplayed by the masses and underplayed by the skilled. Too many uneducated people buy a gun based on how it feels and points. Poor criteria for selecting a gun. At the same time, I believe I’m a decent shooter with decent experience and switching back and forth between Glock and Beretta was a challenge to RE-establish index the first couple dozen times out of the holster after each switch. Add a dot vs irons and that adds a little to the challenge. Yes, there are coping mechanisms, but the issue exists.

Index matters little for bullseye type shooting. Align the sights, press the trigger cleanly, and you’re good. Draws and reloads under time constraints are a different ball of wax and index matters a bit more.

[GJM]

The dot learning curve is substantial, if you want to benefit from the full capability of the dot — which is much more than “making low probability shots.” However, once that investment is made, the dot part of switching platforms is not too difficult.

[P.E. Kelley]

If memory serves me right, you were a GM. I think you'll get this thing down faster than most. But yeah, picking up a different gun every two weeks with dots on them might be less smooth than doing it with irons.

That was the point I failed to make as succinctly as you.

Add a RDS that is not known to you...is it on? How do I turn it on? What will I see for a dot?
It might be a big circle with a dot, or a cross hair or a small medium or large dot. How bright is it? Again is it on?

Irons are ON and Ready for all too see at a glance.

As cool as they are (and make me feel young eyed again) they have pit falls outside of game gun use from my POV.
Hell, inside of 10 yards I can nearly run most hose'em events from the hip, is sight system matters little in that regard.
That said, I will have them on more and more hand tools for sure! They are wicked fast for accuracy.

And yes, I was a USPSA GM and Master NRA Bullseye, Master Service Rifle, Master Handgun Silhouette and some other stuff.

[mmc45414]

I wanted to try them, and I made an effort to transition to an optics ready version of the same thing I have been shooting almost exclusively weekly for two years. I think today was my forth week and I think staying in the rut I was already in has helped significantly.

[medmo]

Check out Scott Jedlinski's posting on YouTube. Lots of good info, advice and drills. One of his recommends is excellent, where you always start high when pushing out for a shot. It's a great idea because your dot will always be coming from one direction, top to bottom. It's pretty difficult to lose the dot when you always know, and expect the dot to come from the top. And dry firing. Lots of dry firing.

[RJ]

I'm just starting out on dots and trying to learn to get a reliable sight picture of the dot as I am target focused. Since I don't have a practical opportunity to take a dot specific class at the moment, I am doing a lot of dry presentations, as suggested by Scott Jedlinkski / Modern Samurai Project in one of his videos I reviewed recently.

Another online training reference I've found is Aaron Cowan / Sage Dynamics. In in particular his White Paper "Miniaturized Red Dot Systems for Duty Handgun Use", 3rd Edition, links here:

Web site:

https://www.sagedynamics.org/

White Paper:

https://1312bba5-e7e7-76e8-1fca-a01bfd3a0b6e.filesusr.com/ugd/7dc128_21de6dec9537496b9c0ff74a0c1370c2.pdf


After reviewing the fundamentals of Optic Shooting,there's an interesting section on initial training of officers on acquiring the dot: (emphasis mine):

With the handgun, only two points of contact aid in alignment of the optic body to the dominant eye. The best method for working through this potential hurdle, as it will not happen to all officers, is to instruct officers to drive the firearm to their eyes while looking exactly where they wish to hit the target. If the dot does not appear upon presentation, the officer should move their head until they see the dot while holding the firearm perfectly still. If they find the dot and it is aligned with their desired point of impact, the issue is with their alignment of the firearm to the eye and not with the MRDS to the target. It is normal for eye/hand coordination to place the firearm in the correct location while not necessarily aligning it perfect with the eye; much in the same way we are able to throw a ball to a specific point without conscious thought as to alignment, these functions occur naturally whether it’s a baseball or the alignment of a handgun to a target. This generally isnt an issue with iron sights due to the open nature of their radius and the small, unconscious corrections that are made as the firearm presents.

You guys who shoot dots, would you agree with this?

[RoyGBiv]

Had my first chance to shoot dots yesterday. Both rifle and pistol. I felt like I was cheating. Plenty of work to do to get fast, but, a great gift for my aging eyes.

[HeavyDuty]

Had my first chance to shoot dots yesterday. Both rifle and pistol. I felt like I was cheating. Plenty of work to do to get fast, but, a great gift for my aging eyes.

That’s how I feel - it’s mostly an accommodation for my aging eyes, but damn what a difference!

[YVK]

You guys who shoot dots, would you agree with this?

Yes but I don't see much value in that conclusion. Obviously, this is a diagnostic test only, nobody's gonna move their head to find the dot in any shooting situation. At the end you still need to learn to get target, dot, and eye in one plane and I am not sure what practical step comes out of that test's results. I've observed both instances, dot is close on but I don't see it right away, and dot is nowhere on and I don't see it. The former for me is invariably heeling the gun on very close targets, dot hides behind upper hoop, and is much rarer than just screwing up index to the side altogether. The solution is the same for both scenarios.

[RJ]

The former for me is invariably heeling the gun on very close targets, dot hides behind upper hoop, and is much rarer than just screwing up index to the side altogether. The solution is the same for both scenarios.

Gotcha.

I can totally see where you are coming from. I started out in dry practice doing presentations, and at first I'm like where's the dot? There's supposed to be a dot?! I had so many burned in reps with my iron sights that target acquisition and sight picture were totally off at first. Now, after a few days of work, I'm seeing the dot kind of magically appear, more and more often.

[Doc_Glock]

I have yet to take a shooting class, probably won't, but certainly a good idea for anyone who wants to shorted the curve.


[/COLOR][/SIZE]

And yes, I was a USPSA GM and Master NRA Bullseye, Master Service Rifle, Master Handgun Silhouette and some other stuff.

Gasp! How is it possible to be a a great self taught shooter without taking classes!! /sarc










Sorry, not sorry, sometimes I think PF pushes the "you can only learn this skill in a class" aspect of things too hard.

[GJM]

Gasp! How is it possible to be a a great self taught shooter without taking classes!! /sarc

Sorry, not sorry, sometimes I think PF pushes the "you can only learn this skill in a class" aspect of things too hard.

This would make a great new thread.

I generally would take the other side of the bet when using “only, always, must or never.”

[mmc45414]

In my lengthy four weeks of experience I have has a couple of times where I thought I was back on target (typically following a reload) but the dot wasn't there and it took me some time to find it. It has occurred to me that I was just fixin to miss those targets anyway, I just wouldn't have had a dot to blame... :cool:

And at this point most of my shooting is gathering with a group of friends on Sundays, we setup some targets and makeup scenarios that vary in complexity, depending on how many people showed up and how many brought their steel with them (with a little cardboard also in the mix). Also depending on how many people show up (not many yesterday, ~15F...) and how many drills we run (not many yesterday, ~15F...), and how well I do, this might only amount to 45-90sec total per week. I zeroed the optic with a laser boresighter and it hit well enough I have not needed to touch it. So my total trigger time is less than five minutes, but that said:

I have not had so much difficulty transitioning. One thing I did do was migrate to a twin of the pistol I have been shooting every week for two years, and that maybe matters. I think the shots that I have struggled with are shots I probably would have taken and missed, instead of not shooting because the dot wasn't on target (so maybe there might be a consideration for LE there?).

But I agree with PEK, people have handed me a dot optic pistol to try and it was not as simple and I was not so impressed. I have been shooting either M&Ps or 1911s for probably the last ten years, and after one day a friend let me try his M&P CORE I started making plans to try a dot (and am glad I did). But I also agree that I can take up a dissimilar iron sight gun and make do much easier.

[Quantrill]

In my opinion the best training you can buy is a USPSA match. Look no further than the super seniors running around with a Burris FF in a dovetail mount on their XD.

Also, I think everyone hyper focuses on dot acquisition off the draw and not enough on acquiring the dot during/ after movement.

I could be wrong.

ETA: not addressing Mr Kelly, he’s gonna be fine 😀. Just general thoughts

[DDTSGM]

This would make a great new thread.

I generally would take the other side of the bet when using “only, always, must or never.”

I agree it would make a great thread.

One of the things that I've found about any class teaching a physical skill, whether it be firearms, driving, etc., is that in general, the class doesn't impart the skills, it imparts the ability to learn the skill.

I said in general because, in some cases, such as in military or police firearms training where you sometimes get a student who has never fired a pistol or rifle, you indeed do impart skills, but the student also goes away with the ability to improve those skills - if you've done your job.

In today's world, with all the media sources we have, I don't think it improbable that a dedicated person could attain mastery without attending a formal class.

But go waaay back, who taught Brian Enos to be Brian Enos? Bill Rogers to be Bill Rogers? Reading Stoeger's books, I get the idea that his has been a journey of self-discovery for the most part.

That being said, I go to classes because even the best shooters/teachers leave something on the table when writing it all down. I had practically memorized Training at the Speed of Life before attending a class with Ken Murray and still learned a great deal from him while attending his course.

[DDTSGM]

Look no further than the super seniors running around with a Burris FF in a dovetail mount on their XD.

How old are you? Asking for a friend who hopes he lives long enough to see you become a super senior so he can mock you.

[Quantrill]

How old are you? Asking for a friend who hopes he lives long enough to see you become a super senior so he can mock you.

Old enough to not be offensive to super seniors.

It wasn’t a mock. I can’t believe I’m going to entertain you but here goes:

It was a compliment. Dudes beyond their physical prime, with non - sexy gear, going to a match and shooting dots. I know several of them and none of them had to take a specific dot class.

Edit for spelling

[MDFA]

44 Years of carrying an Iron Sighted Pistol Professionally is hard to overcome. I've taken a class with Scott Jedlinski and done the dry fire and live fire drills, but it's still a struggle to find the dot as quickly or consistently as finding my Iron Sights. And nobody gets to do 10 minutes of dry presentations before a gunfight.

[Hambo]

I saw that SIG's Romeo 2 and another newer RDS have lowered the screen so that the RDS co-witnesses with standard height sights. I'll hold out to see if other companies follow suit.

[HeavyDuty]

I saw that SIG's Romeo 2 and another newer RDS have lowered the screen so that the RDS co-witnesses with standard height sights. I'll hold out to see if other companies follow suit.

Got me excited for second, cowitness with standard sights is my grail.


“This ROMEO 2 will have 15 brightness settings. It has an integrated rear sight to co-witness with a front suppressor-height sight,” said SIG Sauer’s John Nichols.

[Hambo]

Got me excited for second, cowitness with standard sights is my grail.

I'm trying to find where I saw that. :mad: The reviewer made a point of not needing a taller front sight. I wasn't even interested until I heard that part. The other pistol/optic was the Hellcat, and I recall thinking that to get the optic height I want, I'd need to carry the two pistols I least want to own.

[RJ]

Got me excited for second, cowitness with standard sights is my grail.

TBH, a very slight change in the sight body casting process to creat a small pair of vestigial nubs, to serve as back up rear sights, seems like a fairly reasonable MRDS design evolution step. I’d expect makers to start copying that unless somehow Sig got a patent on it.

[HeavyDuty]

TBH, a very slight change in the sight body casting process to creat a small pair of vestigial nubs, to serve as back up rear sights, seems like a fairly reasonable MRDS design evolution step. I’d expect makers to start copying that unless somehow Sig got a patent on it.

That’s my dream carry optic - something like a mini ACRO with internal, grossly adjustable BUIS. It wouldn’t prevent issues if the sight is smashed, but I feel dot failure is a much more likely failure to mitigate.

[mmc45414]

I think the dot is helping my shooting at distance, but the most significant improvement is my weak hand shooting. Gee, I wonder why, what with cross-dominant vision and my distance vision correction in my non-dominate eye (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46886-Intra-ocular-lens-(IOL)-choices&p=1185374&viewfull=1#post1185374) and all...

But on that topic, I am pretty sure I am not shooting with both eyes open, at least if the timer is running. If I am still reflexively closing an eye, maybe that is contributing to my transition maybe being a little smoother than conventional wisdom says it should be? And as I contemplate this, I might persist in continuing, since I never intend to quit shooting pistols with regular sights?...

67921

Also, not sure, but I think I am using my right eye here. I cannot remember, but I do remember hitting the target on the first shot, something new for me when shooting weak hand... :cool:
ETA: Hmmmmmm, just saw the casing in the air I guess the plate should be swinging if I hit it on the first shot... Maybe not!!!

ETA: I have another rack that duplicates this setup that we park down at 25-30yds, the specific distance depends on a big mud puddle, but with no mud yesterday it was at the back of our little spot. One of the drills we run is to do two shots on the square plate, then do one shot on the distant silhouette plate, then come back and do one shot on the little circle. With my five inch M&P with FO I can do that pretty well, but yesterday I did it with the Swampfox Liberty in five point something, which is fast enough to make me happy.

[NoTacTravis]

Have you tried putting painters tape on the front of the optic yet? It will pretty much force you to use both eyes.


I shoot cross dominant one eye open with irons as well. This helped me transition quickly to both eyes open with the dot.

[mmc45414]

Have you tried putting painters tape on the front of the optic yet? It will pretty much force you to use both eyes.


I shoot cross dominant one eye open with irons as well. This helped me transition quickly to both eyes open with the dot.

Not yet, but so far I have only shot the thing 3-4 times.
Something to contemplate. Probably at very close range at very high tempo I probably do not close an eye with irons.

[RJ]

TBH, a very slight change in the sight body casting process to creat a small pair of vestigial nubs, to serve as back up rear sights, seems like a fairly reasonable MRDS design evolution step. I’d expect makers to start copying that unless somehow Sig got a patent on it.

Ok...so I was pondering this some more today...and thought: why not skip the rear sight, altogether? What I mean is I was all set to buy a sight set front/rear of suppressor height. But...but...but...what if I just bought a suppressor height front? I mean, if you are just using the tall rear sights as "nubs" to index the front off of, could you not just use the sight body, as long as you saw a front sight nub?

(I'm assuming of course you'd practice with this as a backup so you know where you had to aim to place a shot, in the event th dot failed. I wonder if I'd be any worse off just having a front sight, and use the optic body for kinda sorta a rear sight.)

What do you more experienced dot guys think?

[GJM]

Ok...so I was pondering this some more today...and thought: why not skip the rear sight, altogether? What I mean is I was all set to buy a sight set front/rear of suppressor height. But...but...but...what if I just bought a suppressor height front? I mean, if you are just using the tall rear sights as "nubs" to index the front off of, could you not just use the sight body, as long as you saw a front sight nub?

(I'm assuming of course you'd practice with this as a backup so you know where you had to aim to place a shot, in the event th dot failed. I wonder if I'd be any worse off just having a front sight, and use the optic body for kinda sorta a rear sight.)

What do you more experienced dot guys think?

I think you should have usable BUIS on your carry gun, as a backup to dot failure, a work around if your index fails you, and for if you can’t find the dot in a weird position. I also think you should leave BUIS off your competition gun as you need to learn to shoot with a target focus, and getting rid of BUIS will just speed that along.

[RJ]

I think you should have usable BUIS on your carry gun, as a backup to dot failure, a work around if your index fails you, and for if you can’t find the dot in a weird position. I also think you should leave BUIS off your competition gun as you need to learn to shoot with a target focus, and getting rid of BUIS will just speed that along.

Excellent, this makes sense. I like not having to take off the existing rear sight off the G34 slide, buy a new rear tall sight, re-zero the optic etc. etc. etc. I did go ahead and buy a 10 8 0.315" plain black front to mess around with on the G34, just so I can try shooting with a front sight and an optic, while I figure out what's the best way to turn my current non-MOS G48 into one with an optic. I can take that front sight off later, and maybe use it on a carry gun.

I let my wife shoot my G34+Holosun today.

67944

Her reaction after this was pretty interesting. I may need more optics. :)

[M2CattleCo]

I’m about a thousand rounds and a lot of dry work into a 19X / RM06 and I’m not as blown away with it as I thought I would be.

I really haven’t had much trouble with dot acquisition as my presentation with a Glock is pretty ingrained after 20 years of living with them.

Up close shots are doable, probably as fast, as accurate, but I find that if I don’t get the dot during the press out then I fuck around for a second, still don’t get it, and point shoot. Unless the target is far enough away, then I’ll slow down, use the front sight to clean up, and then make the shot.

15 yards and beyond? Fukkin awesome. No comparison.

Low/no light? I’m still not as comfortable with it. With an X300 the silhouette of the irons is easier to pick up than the dot especially when moving.

I thought this was going to be like going from irons to an Aimpoint when we first started putting them on ARs, but the difference is that ARs with an Aimpoint are more forgiving of mount/presentation than with irons, and the handgun is much more dependent on good presentation.

To me, the MRDS vs irons on a handgun is more akin to LPVO vs RDS on an AR.

I think they definitely have their place and I think it’s a great tool to have, but they’re not an across the board improvement over irons for *my* application of a handgun.

I’m still learning this, so my opinion may change as time goes by.

[GJM]

I’m about a thousand rounds and a lot of dry work into a 19X / RM06 and I’m not as blown away with it as I thought I would be.

I really haven’t had much trouble with dot acquisition as my presentation with a Glock is pretty ingrained after 20 years of living with them.

Up close shots are doable, probably as fast, as accurate, but I find that if I don’t get the dot during the press out then I fuck around for a second, still don’t get it, and point shoot. Unless the target is far enough away, then I’ll slow down, use the front sight to clean up, and then make the shot.

15 yards and beyond? Fukkin awesome. No comparison.

Low/no light? I’m still not as comfortable with it. With an X300 the silhouette of the irons is easier to pick up than the dot especially when moving.

I thought this was going to be like going from irons to an Aimpoint when we first started putting them on ARs, but the difference is that ARs with an Aimpoint are more forgiving of mount/presentation than with irons, and the handgun is much more dependent on good presentation.

To me, the MRDS vs irons on a handgun is more akin to LPVO vs RDS on an AR.

I think they definitely have their place and I think it’s a great tool to have, but they’re not an across the board improvement over irons for *my* application of a handgun.

I’m still learning this, so my opinion may change as time goes by.

There is a substantial learning curve with a PMO -- like months and years. Smaller displays making acquiring the dot on the presentation harder. An RMR is an optic with a small display.

A suggestion is, during practice, stop when you don't get the dot, and analyze what was wrong. Then see if you can eliminate what caused the problem. Also, make sure you are really looking at the target and allowing the dot to appear over the target, versus looking for the dot and moving the dot to the target. Some people tape over the front of the optic lens in practice to help assure true target focus.

[M2CattleCo]

Yeah I think when I don’t see the dot I start looking at the optic and rolling my wrist around to get it to come into view and that’s when I just look back at the target and send it.

I will try taping over the lens. I habe seen that done with Aimpoints to get people to use both eyes.

[GJM]

Yeah I think when I don’t see the dot I start looking at the optic and rolling my wrist around to get it to come into view and that’s when I just look back at the target and send it.

I will try taping over the lens. I habe seen that done with Aimpoints to get people to use both eyes.

I hate always and never, but generally I find that rolling the wrist fishing for the dot doesn't work. What does seem to work is fully extending so everything is locked up and that causes the dot to appear. Between the Holosun's larger display and the circle reticle option, the H optic is easier to find the dot with than an RMR.

[mrozowjj]

I think you should have usable BUIS on your carry gun, as a backup to dot failure, a work around if your index fails you, and for if you can’t find the dot in a weird position. I also think you should leave BUIS off your competition gun as you need to learn to shoot with a target focus, and getting rid of BUIS will just speed that along.

No where near as proficient as you are with them but this is exactly how I have my guns. Glock 19 gun that I would carry has sights that sit in the lower portion of the optic window so I can use them if needed but ignore them most of the time.

Glock 45 I use for USPSA CO has sights that do not clear the optic body at all because I kind of don't care; if I can't find the dot well then I guess I need to practice and if the dot dies in the middle of a match it's not a great day but my life doesn't depend on it.

[1Rangemaster]

Interesting conversation on a range today at a match. A gentleman mentioned that Rob Leatham, who certainly can comment on shooting has a video out on acquiring the dot. I haven’t found it yet, but reportedly Leatham is saying a good deal of dry practice should be the presentation from where hands come together to extension, picking up the dot extending. Do it over and over and over. Then work on live fire, etc.
Makes sense to me.
An Aimpoint instructor over a year ago commented that if one has a pretty good index, but don’t immediately pick up the dot, push the pistol/sight down and it should appear. Rarely is the dot off to one side.
I found that to be true for me also.
I also think for me I have to dry fire for acquisition at least a few times a week for my confidence/comfort…

[Wise_A]

I hate always and never, but generally I find that rolling the wrist fishing for the dot doesn't work. What does seem to work is fully extending so everything is locked up and that causes the dot to appear. Between the Holosun's larger display and the circle reticle option, the H optic is easier to find the dot with than an RMR.

In my case, I found it was head position, which then caused me to realize my stance with iron sights was poor, which lead to a bunch of other improvements and a general realization I needed to refocus on fundamentals.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Have you tried putting painters tape on the front of the optic yet? It will pretty much force you to use both eyes.

This ^^^ is one of the advantages in seeking, getting a PMO class. Yeah, I'm biased.

One of the two or three most positive feedback-generating things I have in my red dot classes is taping over the downrange lens - with painter's tape. Regularly that drill, repeated frequently in the class, is commented on as having the biggest impact early.

Things that I thought made sense in '11 and '12 were debunked, blown out of the water when I re-visited PMOs and took others classes.

[Archer1440]

This ^^^ is one of the advantages in seeking, getting a PMO class. Yeah, I'm biased.

One of the two or three most positive feedback-generating things I have in my red dot classes is taping over the downrange lens - with painter's tape. Regularly that drill, repeated frequently in the class, is commented on as having the biggest impact early.

Things that I thought made sense in '11 and '12 were debunked, blown out of the water when I re-visited PMOs and took others classes.

That was certainly the case for me, when you pulled out that roll of blue tape at Gunsite. Nothing teaches “target focus” like that exercise. And I will say it again- getting good instruction is the “easy button” to save time and ammo (and therefore, $) when learning the PMO.