Considerations for red dots on slimline pistols

[GJM]

In a recent thread, I mentioned that a few days ago at the LGS, there were three of us there, and one guy had a 48 MOS with a 507K, my wife had a 365XL with a 507K, and I had a direct milled 43X with a RMSc. Obviously slimline pistols and red dots are a great combination, as the dot makes up for less sight radius. Since the hardware is becoming more reliable and available, I thought it would be good to start a thread on some considerations around selecting, installing and using dots on slimline pistols.

I think the most common optics suitable for slimline pistols are the RMSc, the 407K/507K, the Romeo Zero, the RMRcc and the Swamp Fox Sentinel.

I have had a number of Shield RMS and RMSc optics over the past few years. For the last year plus, I have been frequently carrying a 43X with a 8 moa RMSc (polymer lens). After scratching up an early Shield, I have been very particular about how I clean the lens. I try to use compressed air to remove dust and debris, and sparingly use a Leupold Len pen. So far, this has kept my lens free of scratches. The optic has held zero perfectly for me. I really like the combination of the large dot and the Shield’s auto intensity. The RMSc design integrates nicely with standard height iron sights. Battery life is not as long as an RMR, and with no side loading battery drawer, the optic has to be removed to change the battery. So far, zero has held for me when removing and reinstalling the optic. A great attribute of the Shield design, is the optical clarity of the dot in low and adverse sun angles — I only see one dot and there is no splatter. The RMSc footprint is nearly the industry standard on factory cut slimline pistols.

I have not used a 407K, although I have had multiple 507K optics. I like the controls and side loading battery. I wish the dot was larger. At one point I thought I didn’t like the auto feature, until I realized it had no auto function, just manual and manual with a lock out. Sure helps to read the manual! I find the 507K is terrible in a low sun angle setting with the single dot selected — it is either washes out completely or has enough splatter, you can’t decipher which is the main dot. A work around is using the circle dot reticle, as that works perfectly in adverse sun conditions. While I find it harder to call my shots with the Holosun circle dot, I feel like the circle dot reticle may be the best 507K choice for EDC, where shot calling is not as important as having a visible reticle across a wide range of lighting conditions. One caution is that while the 507K footprint is close to the RMSc, it is slightly different and won’t drop on without modification.I do believe that an optic direct milled for a 507K will work with a RMSc.

I bought a RMRcc as soon as they came out, but after having it sit unused for months, I traded it on a SRO. I really wish Trijicon used the RMSc footprint, because it’s unique footprint makes it less desirable to me. I will be curious as to what pistols people are using the CC on and how they are working out.

I also got a Swamp Fox, but as of yet haven’t mounted it.

Early reports on the Romeo Zero were disheartening, but I haven’t heard much lately.

Feel free to pile on with your experiences with these optics, particulars of mounting these optics on slimline pistols, plate options and other observations.

[HeavyDuty]

I have an unfired Swampfox Sentinel on my 43x, I have high hopes for it. I want to try a glass lensed Shield, but I’m a little hesitant until they have a robust stateside support organization set up for warranty and repairs.

I am disappointed Aimpoint went both with a nonstandard footprint and a higher profile than the others. I think the future for carry optics is in low profile designs that allow for standard or near standard height irons.

I would personally like to see a fully enclosed emitter slimline RDS that fits the Shield footprint and is low enough for factory height irons. A miniAcro, basically.

[DMCutter]

I have 507ks on my Hellcat and 365. The Hellcat required slight modification and the 365 was milled by Maple Leaf. The Hellcat fell out of my pocket once and landed on the concrete patio smack on top of the 507 with no adverse effect. The milling on the 365 wasn't deep enough to keep the stock irons usable so I swapped them out for Ameriglo suppressor height sights; POI is about 6-7" high at 15 yards which is not ideal but would work in a pinch. I spend much time low crawling under houses so the lenses collect some dust but I've had no issues with scratches.

I was going to echo the comment about the dot being hard to find in bright sunlight, really directly overhead as well as low angle, but the circle or circle dot mitigate that.

I haven't found the increase in height to be a detriment to pocket carry and it's a non issue IWB. Color me completely sold on the concept.

[Kirk]

I've recently been running a Sig Romeo Zero and I like it. My round count is down the last few months due to ammo cost, but it's been carried/dry fired daily and is still holding zero.

How does the 507K fit on the 43x MOS? I just purchased a 43x and need to decide if I'm going to order another Romeo Zero or try out the Holosun.

[JCN]

I have 507ks on my Hellcat and 365. The Hellcat required slight modification and the 365 was milled by Maple Leaf. The Hellcat fell out of my pocket once and landed on the concrete patio smack on top of the 507 with no adverse effect. The milling on the 365 wasn't deep enough to keep the stock irons usable so I swapped them out for Ameriglo suppressor height sights; POI is about 6-7" high at 15 yards which is not ideal but would work in a pinch. I spend much time low crawling under houses so the lenses collect some dust but I've had no issues with scratches.

I was going to echo the comment about the dot being hard to find in bright sunlight, really directly overhead as well as low angle, but the circle or circle dot mitigate that.

I haven't found the increase in height to be a detriment to pocket carry and it's a non issue IWB. Color me completely sold on the concept.


PSA: I had Maple Leaf mill a couple P365s for me. Deleting the rear sight and using the integrated rear.

I then had Dawson custom make a proper taller front sight for me to have POA/POI and paid the setup fee.

But for anyone else who now orders that sight (not listed on their page for some reason) can get it at the normal fiber optic price ($39 shipped I think).

I’m a stickler for accurate BUIS on a carry gun with a dot.

EDIT:
Ask for this one:
67205

[Bergeron]

The supposed durability of the RMRcc interests me, in spite of the proprietary mounting. As it’s advertised as 1911-slide width, I’m curious to see one on a Officer frame on a 3-4.25” slide.

[HeavyDuty]

The supposed durability of the RMRcc interests me, in spite of the proprietary mounting. As it’s advertised as 1911-slide width, I’m curious to see one on a Officer frame on a 3-4.25” slide.

Ooooooh... I never thought of that.

[RJ]

Good thread. I am in the process of installing a 507c v2 on my USPSA G34 MOS, and pondering what dot for my G48 for EDC. So I have questions from that standpoint.


Do you leave the dot on all the time, 24/7?

I’m guessing for carry that’s how I’d want it, and would put up with more frequent battery changes. So a narrow design with a battery tray or not having to remove the optic to change would be beneficial.


What would make you pick a closed emitter vs. open emitter design?

I carry AIWB, so would guess there’s a chance for lint build up on an open emitter, but perhaps periodic cleaning would mitigate that over having a closed emitter?


Would periodic PM be any different for a narrow vs. wide dot?

I would guess not to much, maybe preventive battery replacement frequent might be higher, but not due to size. I’d probably inspect it more frequently. I shoot my carry gun monthly, so maybe inspect the witness marks and/or torque the mounting screws at the same interval?

[miller_man]

Do you leave the dot on all the time, 24/7?

I’m guessing for carry that’s how I’d want it, and would put up with more frequent battery changes. So a narrow design with a battery tray or not having to remove the optic to change would be beneficial.


What would make you pick a closed emitter vs. open emitter design?

I carry AIWB, so would guess there’s a chance for lint build up on an open emitter, but perhaps periodic cleaning would mitigate that over having a closed emitter?

[/i]

Yes, dot on 24/7 for me.

I have the routine when putting on holster to chamber check and look at dot for brightness. Couldn't imagine not noticing lint or other debris in the emitter.


Also have plans for g48 with some slimline dot in near future.

[RJ]

Yes, dot on 24/7 for me.

I have the routine when putting on holster to chamber check and look at dot for brightness. Couldn't imagine not noticing lint or other debris in the emitter.


Also have plans for g48 with some slimline dot in near future.

Thanks, that makes sense.

For my situation, it seems likely I'll buy a 507k v2 for the G48 I have now and have it milled. My LGS has had a hard time predicting supply and I've asked them a couple times about a 48 MOS, but with no luck. I guess everybody is in the same boat. Hence getting my current 48 milled. I'm not worried about the lack of the rail on mine, that comes with the 48 MOS.

I did check the 50k user manual and it appears setup similar to the 507c (2MOA dot/32 MOA circle), and the "sleep timer" function can be deselected, so the reticle never turns off.

Obviously this could be affected by how things go with my 507c/G34. Looking forward to hearing about other experiences with slimline dots.

[JCN]

Philosophically, I totally agree with GJM about his impressions on micro dots.

I am still carrying an RMSc on my primary carry gun (milled P365 with XL grip) due to the auto-brightness sensor.

I personally have a strong preference for an auto-brightness adjust. I know some trainers just like the dot all the way up, but for me it makes target focus difficult unless the dot is small.

I really wish the 507k would have that feature. The 507c does.

I like the Romeo Zero for a budget dot, but the polymer body has some flex to it and that IMO makes the battery connection less stable. I’ve had more dot flicker (like the RMR v1) with that unit than the others.

I like the 507k for bombproof durability and impact resistance, it’s on my range and dry fire versions of my carry gun.

[GJM]

Philosophically, I totally agree with GJM about his impressions on micro dots.

I am still carrying an RMSc on my primary carry gun (milled P365 with XL grip) due to the auto-brightness sensor.

I personally have a strong preference for an auto-brightness adjust. I know some trainers just like the dot all the way up, but for me it makes target focus difficult unless the dot is small.

I really wish the 507k would have that feature. The 507c does.

I like the Romeo Zero for a budget dot, but the polymer body has some flex to it and that IMO makes the battery connection less stable. I’ve had more dot flicker (like the RMR v1) with that unit than the others.

I like the 507k for bombproof durability and impact resistance, it’s on my range and dry fire versions of my carry gun.

I agree that a Holosun to beat on and a RMSc for carry is a great combo.

Why did you go with a 365 upper and not an XL, and who milled your 365 slide?

[JCN]

I agree that a Holosun to beat on and a RMSc for carry is a great combo.

Why did you go with a 365 upper and not an XL, and who milled your 365 slide?


Maple Leaf milled them. Good service, quick turnaround. Good prices. The only thing was the front sight height which I remedied by getting the Dawson fiber made.

The 365 milling isn’t as deep as the XL which leads to a little higher front sight requirement.

Here are the differences in cuts and my favorite carry holster with optic shroud to protect the RMSc.

67229

The reason for the 365 combo is a little more complicated.

I like manual safety guns because I have a young kiddo at home.
I practice enough that I feel comfortable with disengaging safeties.
I like the XL grip because I like pinky for recoil control and the extended regular P365 magazine pinches when worn. The little magwell flare of the XL grip is nice too.

I shoot the XL slide a little better than the P365 slide. But I shoot an EDC X9 better than a P365XL. And I shoot a Shadow 2 better than an EDC X9 and a TSO better than a Shadow 2.

The XL slide pokes me in the groin a little more carrying AIWB unless I increase the ride height and I figure I have to draw the line somewhere at the balance of shootability versus comfort.

You are also an excellent shooter (as is your wife!) so there may be a point where you/we say “you know, that’s good enough of a gun because I’m good enough as a shooter.”

I ran the P365 with XL grip through FAST, triple nickel, old FAM testing and was able to pass them, so I felt like I could say “good enough” even though I know I’m giving up a little performance for comfort.


https://youtu.be/ckm0ZXXb1n4


https://youtu.be/fKUlXzcw0RY

FAM targets. 144/150
67230

[miller_man]

Maple Leaf milled them. Good service, quick turnaround. Good prices. The only thing was the front sight height which I remedied by getting the Dawson fiber made.

The 365 milling isn’t as deep as the XL which leads to a little higher front sight requirement.

Here are the differences in cuts and my favorite carry holster with optic shroud to protect the RMSc.

67229

The reason for the 365 combo is a little more complicated.

I like manual safety guns because I have a young kiddo at home.
I practice enough that I feel comfortable with disengaging safeties.
I like the XL grip because I like pinky for recoil control and the extended regular P365 magazine pinches when worn. The little magwell flare of the XL grip is nice too.

I shoot the XL slide a little better than the P365 slide. But I shoot an EDC X9 better than a P365XL. And I shoot a Shadow 2 better than an EDC X9 and a TSO better than a Shadow 2.

The XL slide pokes me in the groin a little more carrying AIWB unless I increase the ride height and I figure I have to draw the line somewhere at the balance of shootability versus comfort.

You are also an excellent shooter (as is your wife!) so there may be a point where you/we say “you know, that’s good enough of a gun because I’m good enough as a shooter.”

I ran the P365 with XL grip through FAST, triple nickel, old FAM testing and was able to pass them, so I felt like I could say “good enough” even though I know I’m giving up a little performance for comfort.


https://youtu.be/ckm0ZXXb1n4


https://youtu.be/fKUlXzcw0RY

FAM targets. 144/150
67230


Bro - So on the FAST, did you draw and pull your cover shirt down to clear your mag so you don't have to clear your shirt on the reload?

[JCN]

Bro - So on the FAST, did you draw and pull your cover shirt down to clear your mag so you don't have to clear your shirt on the reload?

Yes, I pull down sideways to tuck it in back of the magazine so I can get to the mag more consistently.
It leads to a little slower of a draw by 1-2 tenths but much more consistent on the reload.

You can see on the second FAST run if you play it in slo mo, I actually got snagged a little on the cover shirt on the reload so had to speed up my shooting cadence on the last four shots to compensate.

[miller_man]

Yes, I pull down sideways to tuck it in back of the magazine so I can get to the mag more consistently.
It leads to a little slower of a draw by 1-2 tenths but much more consistent on the reload.

You can see on the second FAST run if you play it in slo mo, I actually got snagged a little on the cover shirt on the reload so had to speed up my shooting cadence on the last four shots to compensate.

Ha ha, I dig it! Pretty interesting.

[GJM]

Ha ha, I dig it! Pretty interesting.

If it has a score and a timer it is a game, and gamers gonna game. Seems pretty smart to me, and even for the tacticians, once the shooting starts it is hardly a problem to have an exposed magazine.

[miller_man]

If it has a score and a timer it is a game, and gamers gonna game. Seems pretty smart to me, and even for the tacticians, once the shooting starts it is hardly a problem to have an exposed magazine.

Yep, my first thought was "he gamed the FAST drill!". I resisted saying that cause I thought it could come off in a negative way or heaven forbid, be "offensive". I think its great and I am gonna try it out a little just for experimenting. The reload is heavily weighed in the fast drill and super easy to bobble or loose lots of time if clearing cover doesn't go well, IME.

[JCN]

If it has a score and a timer it is a game, and gamers gonna game. Seems pretty smart to me, and even for the tacticians, once the shooting starts it is hardly a problem to have an exposed magazine.


Yep, my first thought was "he gamed the FAST drill!". I resisted saying that cause I thought it could come off in a negative way or heaven forbid, be "offensive". I think its great and I am gonna try it out a little just for experimenting. The reload is heavily weighed in the fast drill and super easy to bobble or loose lots of time if clearing cover doesn't go well, IME.

Hehe. Glad you clarified. I am of the mindset like GJM that it’s all a game... a challenge to figure out.

I don’t carry reloads when I carry a gun, so it’s mainly just a skills drill rather than something that’s going to apply to my personal carry.

The only things that matter are rock solid index, straight trigger pull and having the gun go where you’re looking. Everything else is gaming. With the FAST it’s two back to back runs, so consistency is important and that’s where I came up with a method to better get a reproducible grip more like my USPSA magazine reloads.

[JCS]

Maple Leaf milled them. Good service, quick turnaround. Good prices. The only thing was the front sight height which I remedied by getting the Dawson fiber made.

The 365 milling isn’t as deep as the XL which leads to a little higher front sight requirement.

Here are the differences in cuts and my favorite carry holster with optic shroud to protect the RMSc.

67229

The reason for the 365 combo is a little more complicated.

I like manual safety guns because I have a young kiddo at home.
I practice enough that I feel comfortable with disengaging safeties.
I like the XL grip because I like pinky for recoil control and the extended regular P365 magazine pinches when worn. The little magwell flare of the XL grip is nice too.

I shoot the XL slide a little better than the P365 slide. But I shoot an EDC X9 better than a P365XL. And I shoot a Shadow 2 better than an EDC X9 and a TSO better than a Shadow 2.

The XL slide pokes me in the groin a little more carrying AIWB unless I increase the ride height and I figure I have to draw the line somewhere at the balance of shootability versus comfort.

You are also an excellent shooter (as is your wife!) so there may be a point where you/we say “you know, that’s good enough of a gun because I’m good enough as a shooter.”

I ran the P365 with XL grip through FAST, triple nickel, old FAM testing and was able to pass them, so I felt like I could say “good enough” even though I know I’m giving up a little performance for comfort.


https://youtu.be/ckm0ZXXb1n4


https://youtu.be/fKUlXzcw0RY

FAM targets. 144/150
67230

Do you prefer the Rmsc to the 507k?

[JCN]

Do you prefer the Rmsc to the 507k?

Dunno. There are pros and cons.
The RMSc has a bigger window and a great light sensor.
It is less durable and costs more.

I figure my carry gun actually leads a pretty pampered and cushy life, so I accept the durability issue with a dead on back up iron sighting system and have confidence that the dot brightness will be there at night and during sunlight.

[YVK]

I personally have a strong preference for an auto-brightness adjust. I know some trainers just like the dot all the way up, but for me it makes target focus difficult unless the dot is small.



Tangent about auto adjust. I used to keep my RMRs on manual, bright enough to prevent daytime washout. That resulted in battery life of 5 months for two different units. I changed to auto. That was OK, and then SecondsCount set up a night shoot and auto adjusted RMR washed out under a 150 lumen handheld.
I am back to manual and am looking to phase out RMRs altogether.

[psalms144.1]

I've had a Romeo 0, 507K, and Sentinel so far, all mounted on a P365XL. The 0 came on the pistol as a package deal. Hated the "reach into the sight to adjust the brightness" design, hated the build "feel" (felt like junk airsoft toy), and, it's a Sig product, so, I just didn't trust it a lick. The dot was reasonably crisp, and the "glass" was fairly clean, so those are pluses. Luckily, there are no end of folks on eBay that will buy anything, so I got darned near full retail price for it...

The 507K was lightyears better. I'm not sold on the multi-reticle option, and I've seen several iterations wherein the "circle" part was canted off true - which would make me f'ing crazy. I'm NOT a fan of the manual adjustment - when the dot is set bright enough to see on a light colored target outdoors, it darn near flares the entire screen with light when you're indoors in normal/low light. Conversely, setting the dot for use indoors in low light makes the dot invisible outdoors, requiring several up "ticks" to be visible again. The glass is clear, though, and, as previously mentioned over and over, side-loading batteries are AWESOME. Lastly, the rear "notch" on the body co-witnesses nicely with the factory front on the XL, and, surprisingly, shoots to near POA at 15 yards.

I've had three different Sentinels. Build quality is WAY better than the Romeo 0, and I was super impressed with the auto-adjust feature, which worked like a champ even moving from full bright daylight into an unlit closet. Dot is clean and crisp. Down side is every one of them that I had showed massive amounts of light "defects" on the screen when exposed to even overcast sunlight. Multi-dots, light "trails" and general light "haze" were overpoweringly bad on all three of the optics. On more than one occasion, I was actually able to see a reflection of the circuit board in the lens when the light hit the optic at just the right angle. And none of these observations were trying to find flaw - they all occurred on the range, observed by multiple shooters in each case. The good news, Swamp Fox is absolutely no BS about their warranty, sent a return shipping label for each of them, and refunded my money quickly.

If I could get the Sentinel's auto adjust on the 507's body (love the side loading battery and built in rear BUIS), I'd be happy as a clam. As it is, all my small pistols are currently dot-less, because I'm not willing/able to work around the current flaws in any of the options I've tried.

[cornstalker]

I have had a 6 moa Romeo Zero on a P365XL. It was terrible. My previous report described the dot as a scale model of the solar system. Lens distortion was horrible. The dot looked like a football. The body of the optic flexed upward on the end opposite the screws. I had ordered two, one for me, one for my gunsmith. They were both the same regarding the flaws/defects. These were out of the first production run. Hopefully, they have been improved.

I currently have a Sentinel M on a 43x. Works pretty good so far. I have not been able to use it outdoors yet so I am not sure how it will perform in the daylight. During indoor testing, I did notice that if a light shines into the front of the optic from slightly above-center and off to the side a touch you can see a red square under the dot. I assume this is a reflection off of the emitter lens. Still in the early stages with this one so I can't really give much of an opinion on it yet. After reading the experiences psalms144.1 I am less hopeful going forward. I have hit the down button a number of times while racking the slide.

I had a 407k, but ended up bailing out on the project it was for and sold it without ever doing more than coon fingering it. If the Sentinel does not work out, I sure wouldn't be afraid to get another one and try it.

[GJM]

I have a four inch PC Shield on the way to Primary Machine to direct mill a RMSc.

[cornstalker]

Where does one even get an RMSc?

[cornstalker]

FWIW, neither the Sentinel nor my HE508t fogged over when subjected to -2F temp, 91% humidity, straight from AIWB carry.

[SoCalDep]

In order to fog, the temperature of the window needs to be below the dew point. At -2 degrees, 100% humidity would be a dew point of -2 and since your optic is warmer than that coming off your body it won’t fog.

[TC215]

I’m thinking about getting a G43 milled for an RMRcc. Does anyone have any clue what height sights I need to get a lower 1/3 or 1/4 co-witness?

GJM

[GJM]

I’m thinking about getting a G43 milled for an RMRcc. Does anyone have any clue what height sights I need to get a lower 1/3 or 1/4 co-witness?

GJM

I don’t know and needing suppressor height BUIS was the nail in the coffin for me with the RMRcc.

[TC215]

I don’t know and needing suppressor height BUIS was the nail in the coffin for me with the RMRcc.

I may have answered my own question. According to Battlewerx, a 10-8 .325 rear and .250 front will give a lower 1/4 co-witness with a direct milled RMRcc.

[cornstalker]

In order to fog, the temperature of the window needs to be below the dew point. At -2 degrees, 100% humidity would be a dew point of -2 and since your optic is warmer than that coming off your body it won’t fog.

Good info. Thank you for that. It is something I was concerned about and didn't have the scientific knowledge to know any different. Figured I would just test it out.

[HeavyDuty]

I may have answered my own question. According to Battlewerx, a 10-8 .325 rear and .250 front will give a lower 1/4 co-witness with a direct milled RMRcc.

That’s pretty tall for a little gun. That’s why I passed on the RMRcc for the 43. It would look like the Nina, Pinta or Santa Maria.

I did briefly consider having a 43 direct milled for a RMRcc all the way back obliterating the rear sight dovetail and leaving the front off, but I don’t know if I’m willing to trust RDS with no irons for a carry gun.

[cornstalker]

I may have answered my own question. According to Battlewerx, a 10-8 .325 rear and .250 front will give a lower 1/4 co-witness with a direct milled RMRcc.

This is what that exact configuration looks like with a Sentinel in a .160" pocket with the optic turned off. The rear is the 10-8 with a .140" notch, the front is a Dawson .250" x .105"

67564

[TC215]

This is what that exact configuration looks like with a Sentinel in a .160" pocket with the optic turned off. The rear is the 10-8 with a .140" notch, the front is a Dawson .250" x .105"

67564

Perfect, I actually just ordered both of those exact sights. Traded into another 43 this evening, now I just need to order the optic.

[SoCalDep]

Good info. Thank you for that. It is something I was concerned about and didn't have the scientific knowledge to know any different. Figured I would just test it out.

I think testing it out is the answer. I’ve been fairly extensively researching environmental conditions that can affect the performance of pistol optics and testing different “situations” and environments for a while. I’ve found that I was very ignorant to the whole issue of “fogging”. That may be that I’m from CA and we have a pretty mild climate in that respect. All that said, we’ve had a couple reports from the field of fogging so I set out to replicate, understand, and set “worst case” scenarios for it.

Here’s my breakdown. It’s my thoughts, and your situation, or that of another may differ.

1. Fogging is a cooler-to-warmer issue and while more accurately called “condensations”, is more clearly described as “fogging”, so that’s the term I’ll use. the primary concern is temperature, or more specifically the dew point, which is calculated from the temperature and the relative humidity (this can be influenced by anything that influences temperature and humidity such as vehicle air conditioning, home air and heating, and body heat). A basic (that’s all I got!) understanding of this will help the pistol optic instructor or user to better determine their needs regarding potential fogging of the optic.

2. CCW of a pistol optic is probably not going to have any fogging concerns. Because the optic is carried near the body with a generally high temperature and humidity (yes - I’m a nerd and I’ve tested it by “wearing” a device to measure temperature and relative humidity), the optic is pretty much always above the dew point and fogging is not a major concern.

3. Without getting too deep in the weeds, if one determines that fogging may be a concern due to how they carry the pistol (off body methods would be a good example) and their environment, then it’s important to plan for that and be ready. This is accomplished by doing a couple things. The first thing that I would recommend is a “freezer test”. Take your safely cleared and empty pistol and put it in your freezer for 30 minutes or more if you want. My freezer has a digital temperature gauge and I confirm it with a thermometer. It’s right at zero degrees Fahrenheit. Because the dewpoint of my ambient heated home temperature (inside) is above zero degrees - by a good amount - removing the optic-equipped pistol from the acclimated freezer temperature will result in immediate fogging. Yay.

Now I get to see how serious fogging will affect the optic. In my tests, enclosed emitters are the shit when it comes to fogging, but for any optic, the proper application of anti-fog products helps to reduce the effects and maintain effective sighting as well. Depending on the amount of fogging (which has a lot to do with the difference in temperature between the optic and the dew point), both the optic window and the emitter’s protective window can suffer from condensational fogging.

If this occurs and no anti-fog has been applied, there is a potential (though it would require “worst-case” conditions) for complete blocking of the window and lack of a clearly visible reticle (dot). This isn’t the end of the world but t sucks pretty bad so we want to avoid it. In my mind the best way to do it is to see worst case (freezer test) and make sure we can still see the dot. Application of an anti-fog product like cat crap will make a difference. You’ll see when you test without and then later with it.

Once understood, fogging can be anticipated, mitigated, and managed.

[CCT125US]

Along the lines of fogging, as mentioned by SoCalDep is my use of transition lenses. For those not familiar, these are lenses that darken when exposed to sun. Depending on intensity of the sun and quality of the lenses, it can dramatically affect dot visibility. Something to think about if you have such lenses, and only shoot indoors.

A work around for those with transitions and lacking outdoor range access, would be to pick up a handheld UV light from the hardware store.

Stepping out onto porch:

67583

Full transition after walking 25yds:

67584

Back inside:

67585

[rdtompki]

My wife's competition guns (10/22 and 22/45) wear optics so it made sense to fit a 507K on her Kimber HD Pro Carry home defense gun. Primary machine turned the work around in 10 days from received to shipped. Looks right at home on the slide and should work well for her. I'm not going to try it for fear that I'll like it too much; I am considering promoting our other Kimber to EDC duty. The Kimber is now a series 70, part of the deal.

67644

[GJM]

Transition glasses take for ever to turn from dark back to light in cold temperatures. Below zero, it seems like they never lighten, as I found out wearing them 14 months ago elk hunting.

[luckyman]

Transition glasses take for ever to turn from dark back to light in cold temperatures. Below zero, it seems like they never lighten, as I found out wearing them 14 months ago elk hunting.

Ugh. There are sooooooo many things I’m finding I didn’t know about living in cold weather. I was thinking “I lived in upstate NY for 4 years; how bad can it be?” But that was 40 years ago as a college student in a dorm, fraternity, or apartment.

I love transition lenses enough I think I’ll just wear my shooting glasses with the clear lenses installed, if/when this is an issue for me when I move.

[CCT125US]

Transition glasses take for ever to turn from dark back to light in cold temperatures. Below zero, it seems like they never lighten, as I found out wearing them 14 months ago elk hunting.

I keep finding reasons to stay away from the dot life. Transition lenses, and blowing snow are the most recent.

[SoCalDep]

I got conned into transitions a couple years ago... they suck. Hate...hate... LOATH ENTIRELY!

I have always shot without eye correction but wear glasses most of the time. Before the dot I would look over my glasses to aim in a carry environment.

With the dot that (and my shooting without correction) is sub-optimal.

So this past Friday I had an eye dr appt and left with a pair of contacts (way simpler process than when I tried them five or six years ago).

Today was day 4, a patrol shift, and the third day wearing them over nine hours. It takes getting used to, and there’s some PIA in maintenance, but I ran around like a kid on Christmas looking at dots on Friday. Really looking forward to actually shooting with a clear dot. Also curious how it will effect my opinion on dot size and brightness.

[RevolverRob]

Where does one even get an RMSc?

I think most folks are just getting theirs from Brownells: https://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting/electronic-sights/reflex-sights/compact-reflex-mini-sight-rmsc--prod116190.aspx

Edit - While we're on the topic of dots and sunglasses (sorta).

Has anyone shot their dot a lot wearing polarized sunglasses? Any issue with cross-polarization causing the dot to go "extinct"?

[DMCutter]

I checked my RMR with my polarized rx cycling shades this afternoon and it didn't disappear the dot at any angle of rotation of the lenses. Optics was never my thing but I would surmise that the reflection of the concentrated LED off a curved surface is not acting the same way as plane polarization off a flat surface like water. It also has no discernible effect on reducing flare with the dot cranked up.

[Norther]

I’ve worn Transitions for...decades. I live in one of the coldest places in the country. I haven’t noticed any real problem or found a better option. Admittedly the pistols I use the most do not have a dot, but my rifles do. I think more of my pistols will soon though.

[evi1joe]

I have a 407Kv2 (my v1 drained batteries), two 507Ks, and the Swampfox Sentinel. I've also owned 2 Shield RMSc optics (plastic window). This is in addition to tons of "full-sized" pistol optics like RMRs, Holosuns, etc.

Sadly, my Swampfox Sentinel has TONS of flicker...it's like the refresh rate is 20-25Hz...it's a blur of dots during transitions and recoil. I thought that was just how they were, but watched two reviews (including the new Sage Dynamics one) that claim there is no flicker. So either Aaron got an updated version (mine was bought 2 weeks ago) or various batches of emitters have varying quality.

Does ANYONE else have flicker with their Swampfox Sentinel?

I think the 407Kv2 is my favorite, but I'll have to go out and check it in more sunlight conditions having read this thread.
I kinda like running just the 32MOA circle on the 507K, since--if my math is right--it only covers 4MOA at 12.5Y, and 2MOA at 6Y. For me, it's too small to see "inside" the circle at that distance, and since I do aim at 1" stickers at 12Y, and the circle is not optimal. I much prefer an 8MOA dot, which is only 1MOA at 12Y.


** I loved the Shield RMSc, but constantly worried about the plastic getting scratched on such a high-priced optic. I DO want to try a glass-lens version as soon as I can find an 8MOA RMSw (waterproof) version for sale online locally. Of course, this will mean putting my lower sight back on my gun, since currently, the 43X and the 365 (with XL grip) have sights that are a bit too tall for me--even with the Holosuns mounted.

[RJ]

I kinda like running just the 32MOA circle on the 507K, since--if my math is right--it only covers 4MOA at 12.5Y, and 2MOA at 6Y.



I am probably missing something, but can you expand on the math to arrive at this conclusion? I have a different interpretation of minute of arc, maybe? Not trying to be a jerk, just thinking maybe I don't understand how you are putting this.

[evi1joe]

I am probably missing something, but can you expand on the math to arrive at this conclusion? I have a different interpretation of minute of arc, maybe? Not trying to be a jerk, just thinking maybe I don't understand how you are putting this.

The way I THOUGHT it worked was this:
32MOA is about 32 inches at 100Y. At 50Y, it would appear to be half that at 16 inches.
At 25Y, it would appear to be 8 inches.
At 12.5Y, it would appear to be 4 inches, and at 6.25Y, it would appear to be 2 inches.

This isn't exact, because I'm looking through it now at like 2.5 to 3 yards, and the 32MOA circle appears to be about 1.5" I can see the Gatorade bottle cap (bigger than 1") inside the middle of the circle.

Is that "not how it works" as they say? :)

(NOTE: this DID work with Eotechs, but maybe lasers are different than LED emitters.)

[RJ]

The way I THOUGHT it worked was this:
32MOA is about 32 inches at 100Y. At 50Y, it would appear to be half that at 16 inches.
At 25Y, it would appear to be 8 inches.
At 12.5Y, it would appear to be 4 inches, and at 6.25Y, it would appear to be 2 inches.

This isn't exact, because I'm looking through it now at like 2.5 to 3 yards, and the 32MOA circle appears to be about 1.5" I can see the Gatorade bottle cap (bigger than 1") inside the middle of the circle.

Is that "not how it works" as they say? :)

(NOTE: this DID work with Eotechs, but maybe lasers are different than LED emitters.)

Yeah, it's all good, semantics. MOA = MOA = MOA no matter what range it is, as far as I know...the way you said "it only covers 4MOA at 12.5Y, and 2MOA at 6Y" just kinda threw me for a loop.

[GJM]

I continue to believe the 507K circle only reticle is ideal for an EDC slimline pistol, as the circle works in low sun angle scenarios that a single dot may be splattered into multiple dots, and the circle may be visible with an imperfect grip, where a single dot may be out of the display. Also the K is available, reasonably priced and seems durable. My only complaint is the circle eats the battery quicker, but at least the K battery can be replaced without removing the optic.

[evi1joe]

Yeah, the K with the circle will have a shorter battery life, but since mine spends at least 8-15 hours a day in a safe, I'm expecting to get at least a year out of it (that would only be 8750 hours).

I keep mine at 4 pushes down from max most of the time. But I carry mostly in the evening and never with a weapon light.

[GJM]

Yeah, the K with the circle will have a shorter battery life, but since mine spends at least 8-15 hours a day in a safe, I'm expecting to get at least a year out of it (that would only be 8750 hours).

I keep mine at 4 pushes down from max most of the time. But I carry mostly in the evening and never with a weapon light.

Since the K has only manual and no solar, why would being in the safe improve battery life, unless you turn it off each time you park it there?

[flyrodr]

Since the K has only manual and no solar, why would being in the safe improve battery life, unless you turn it off each time you park it there?

The 507K X2 has the after-10-minutes sleep mode which, I think, the pre-X2 did not. (Actually verifying that on the one I literally just finished mounting on my P365.) Replacing a Shield RMSw, the lens of which was getting pretty buggered up, even though I cleaned it with my photo stuff (air, microfiber, etc).

[GJM]

The 507K X2 has the after-10-minutes sleep mode which, I think, the pre-X2 did not. (Actually verifying that on the one I literally just finished mounting on my P365.) Replacing a Shield RMSw, the lens of which was getting pretty buggered up, even though I cleaned it with my photo stuff (air, microfiber, etc).

Learning has occurred! Just read the manual and confirmed the sleep mode.

[DMCutter]

The V1 also has auto shut off, 10 minutes to 12 hours, and shake awake.

[evi1joe]

Yeah, I love the auto on/off--should easily get the circle to a year I think.
NOTE: my two 507Ks are V1, and the funny thing is, they ALSO have "lockout" mode (by holding the + for 3 seconds).

Holosun was advertising the V2 as having a "lockout mode" as if that were the improvement, when we all know it was that the lawsuit from Trijicon made them move the easy to push buttons to a harder to get to spot (and they're tiny now). I love the V1s, but the V2 buttons don't bother me since I don't change the settings very often.
----

ALSO-->
The SENTINEL only has the flicker in the higher settings; however, there's a HUGE brightness difference between 5 pushes down from MAX and 6 pushes down from MAX.
At 5 pushes, I can see the dot well in any lighting but it flickers horribly. However, at 6 pushes, it doesn't flicker at all, but it gets too dim to see except for target shooting indoors (or overcast). Ideally, there'd be a sweet spot setting between them that would be bright enough but not flicker. At 5 presses down, I see 3-6 dots as I move the gun from target to target (or just jiggle it).

[flyrodr]

Just went back to the Holosun web page. The X2 had two improvements: 1) a lockout feature to prevent +/- buttons from inadvertently getting moved after they're set; and 2) relocation of the buttons somewhat lower. As DMCutter noted, auto shutoff was already there on the first gen.

(And, verified, carried out the trash, and came back to find my 507K had gone to sleep. Pretty sure you're not required to carry out the trash first. I'll check that later.)

[evi1joe]

Just went back to the Holosun web page. The X2 had two improvements: 1) a lockout feature to prevent +/- buttons from inadvertently getting moved after they're set; and 2) relocation of the buttons somewhat lower.

For the record, Holosun pushed the "lockout" as part of the new X2, but in reality, the X1 of the 507K and the 407K both had the lockout feature all along.
All you do is hold the + button for 3-4 seconds, the reticle blinks, and then the buttons are locked out until you repeat that...so it wasn't a new feature.

All they really did was move the buttons since Trijicon was suing them for putting nice big buttons on the side, which they somehow patented.
IF Swampfox was outselling and out-innovating them by a large margin, I'm sure they'd sue them since their sights (like the Sentinel) ALSO have large buttons, and it's much more similar to the RMR button design than anything Holosun did (both buttons on one side).

[Trukinjp13]

I am thinking pretty seriously if direct milling my shield plus for a 507k. Atei is close and have had nothing but perfection from them. But I’ll have to check lead time.

I think that these slimline could really benefit from a rds.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RancidSumo]

Has anyone here put any real time in behind an RMRcc yet? I'm still interested in hearing more about that option for mounting on a 365. I want to like the 507k, but I am a big fan of the auto-adjust brightness on my regular RMRs (have never had to touch the buttons using it to dry fire in a dark house or outside in bright summer Texas sun) and I just can't get over it being Chinese.

[HeavyDuty]

You would think there would be more true Tier 1 options for slimlines by now. Really, in my opinion we only have the RMRcc which has a nonstandard footprint and just possibly the waterproof and glass RMSc which doesn’t have a stateside warranty and support network. If SIG could figure out the Romeo0 they could lean up, but I’ve seen too many horror stories about it to trust one.

I’ve said it before, but what we need is a compact closed emitter RDS - a miniAcro, as it were.

[HeavyDuty]

I’m pretty forgetful, but I just noticed (again?) that Brownells is offering a replacement RMRcc cut 43-43x slide. It’s more expensive than having a slide milled, though.

[Nephrology]

I’m pretty forgetful, but I just noticed (again?) that Brownells is offering a replacement RMRcc cut 43-43x slide. It’s more expensive than having a slide milled, though.

IIRC they do not have a dove tail for a rear BUIS either.