Large dot vs small dot and why

[GJM]

There are differences in opinion about the ideal size dot in a pistol mounted optic. What do you like and why?

I like a 5-6 moa dot for carry and competition. The larger dot allows me to turn it down more, and be target focused, while still quickly being able to find the dot. The larger dot seems to wiggle less. Auto seems to work better for me with larger dots.

[Archer1440]

There are differences in opinion about the ideal size dot in a pistol mounted optic. What do you like and why?

I like a 5-6 moa dot for carry and competition. The larger dot allows me to turn it down more, and be target focused, while still quickly being able to find the dot. The larger dot seems to wiggle less. Auto seems to work better for me with larger dots.

Carrying the discussion over from the other thread:

As I have improved my proficiency with the RDS over the past few years, I have gravitated to smaller RDS dot sizes.

For target focused shooting, as the RDS demands when used properly, you can see more of the target with the smaller dot, while gaining greater precision for longer shots (for example, 25 yards to the ocular zone on a Gunsite option target under time pressure) without having to make a brightness adjustment.

I feel that the larger dot is still a good solution for starting out (because of the lower amount of apparent “wiggle”). However, once you have done the work to attain proficiency with the RDS, there are distinct advantages to the smaller dot, in my personal experience.

In addition, I have found that that the smaller dot encourages target focus more than a larger dot, with no need for brightness adjustments.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I think I'm the only person who ever says this but I really liked the Eotech-style 65/1 on my Shield. I don't think they do it anymore but it was insanely fast, and precise when you wanted it to be.

If I could have any configuration at all it's be something like a 30 MOA ring and 1MOA dot, though...I think you could use the ring even better if it were a little smaller than 65.

[Doc_Glock]

There are differences in opinion about the ideal size dot in a pistol mounted optic. What do you like and why?

I like a 5-6 moa dot for carry and competition. The larger dot allows me to turn it down more, and be target focused, while still quickly being able to find the dot. The larger dot seems to wiggle less. Auto seems to work better for me with larger dots.

I was sad to learn the 509T I just bought is 2MOA or 32MOA. I guess I will leave the big donut on for carry. I like the form factor otherwise.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I was sad to learn the 509T I just bought is 2MOA or 32MOA. I guess I will leave the big donut on for carry. I like the form factor otherwise.

Not to distract from the broader discussion but man, what a missed opportunity for Holosun. If it was both at once, that reticle would be LETHAL on a pistol.

[Doc_Glock]

Not to distract from the broader discussion but man, what a missed opportunity for Holosun. If it was both at once, that reticle would be LETHAL on a pistol.

I mis stated that. It is both at once when the circle is on. Circle-dot or just dot in other words.

[Duces Tecum]

There are differences in opinion about the ideal size dot in a pistol mounted optic. What do you like and why?

I like a 5-6 moa dot for carry and competition. The larger dot allows me to turn it down more, and be target focused, while still quickly being able to find the dot. The larger dot seems to wiggle less. Auto seems to work better for me with larger dots.



As I have improved my proficiency with the RDS over the past few years, I have gravitated to smaller RDS dot sizes.

I feel that the larger dot is still a good solution for starting out (because of the lower amount of apparent “wiggle”). However, once you have done the work to attain proficiency with the RDS, there are distinct advantages to the smaller dot, in my personal experience.

While we're awaiting his response (or lack thereof), it's probably appropriate to observe that not many people would question George's proficiency like that. :D

[YVK]

I had posted on this subject before so there's nothing new to add. I've shot everything between 2 and 8 moa dots, and I started with smaller dots for both games and carry. I strongly prefer 5-6 moa dots for both, based on observed results and on dot-related issues that required mitigation.

[1911Nut]

I prefer a 5-6 MOA dot just as described by George. For me, with a dot of that size, it's very easy to be quite confident that the dot is going to "be there" when the pistol is presented from the holster. But the field of view is not cluttered with other "stuff".

Not going to have to look for it. It's there. I can focus on the precise location on the target that I want the bullet to strike.

And I also believe the ability to more "finely tune" the dot's intensity is simpler with a 5-6 MOA dot vs. a 2-3 MOA dot, just as mentioned by George.

I am far, far from George's ability with a pistol (dot or otherwise), but even with the gaping difference in skill levels, I see and value the same attributes of a 5-6 MOA dot that he does.

[Archer1440]

While we're awaiting his response (or lack thereof), it's probably appropriate to observe that not many people would question George's proficiency like that. :D

Let me state unequivocally that my comment was in no way intended to question GJM’s proficiency or experience. I am fully and personally aware of his qualifications as a shooter. In the last match we both participated in he finished in the top 5 of 200 shooters, while I was only in the top 25%.

It was a general observation regarding the subject. Full stop.

Your comment is most certainly not appropriate in the context of this discussion, and does not contribute to the topic.

[dontshakepandas]

I think your vision can play a big part in this decision.

My astigmatism can make a 3.25 moa dot on an RMR look quite a bit larger so if I start off with a dot that is already that size there are times where it just appears too large.

I did find that the 5 moa dot on an SRO worked better for me than the 2.5 moa since the dot was a little cleaner, but I also found that the auto brightness mode on the SRO just didn't work as well for me as the RMR so the bigger dot was almost necessary to see it.

[LOKNLOD]

I don't think this is too much scope* creep for the question -- where does a small circle functioning like a large dot - a-la-407CO with 8moa ring only - fit into the picture? Some some folks running 32moa ring only?



*optics pun, ha

[WDR]

I think your vision can play a big part in this decision.

My astigmatism can make a 3.25 moa dot on an RMR look quite a bit larger so if I start off with a dot that is already that size there are times where it just appears too large.

I did find that the 5 moa dot on an SRO worked better for me than the 2.5 moa since the dot was a little cleaner, but I also found that the auto brightness mode on the SRO just didn't work as well for me as the RMR so the bigger dot was almost necessary to see it.

Full disclosure: I'm a RDS pistol noob, and have less than a case of ammo worth of real dot experience to draw from. I've shot a variety of dots on rifles for a long time though.

This is one reason I went with a 3.25 MOA RMR vs the 6 MOA version... if I bloom the dot a bit, it seems bigger. My very slight astigmatism adds to the "bloom" factor a bit, in all but the brightest light conditions. I started out with a decent index, so finding the dot doesn't seem to be an issue for me, and I'm not sure a "circle dot" would help me much. The steadiness of the dot strong hand is good for me. I do see a lot more wobble in my WHO grip, but I'm working on that ( right arm is out of commission due to rotator cuff repair recently). Being able to turn the brightness down and "clean up" the bloom factor, and end up with a smaller aiming point did make zeroing pretty easy, but that isn't super applicable to carry or gun games... you're probably not going to have time to dick with the dot during a stage or in a violent encounter.

In all reality, I'm sure a 5-6-7 MOA dot is plenty useful for most handgun applications, as its still probably smaller than the width of an iron sight front blade. Shooting very precise shots at longer ranges would probably benefit from the smaller dot sizes... but that isn't a real world consideration for most people. I know I have hit fairly small targets with my rifle (say golf balls), at longer ranges where a 4 MOA dot covers the whole of the target. Center hold and floating the dot where you want the bullet to impact. Instead of trying to see "around" the dot... see "through it" is the best way I can put it into words.

[Up1911Fan]

I much prefer the 3.25 on my RMRs or 2 on my 507s to the 6moa on my 407K.

[Quantrill]

I like 5 - 6.5 moa dots for comp & carry.

To my way of thinking, if I’m truly target focused I want the dot to be obvious.

[GJM]

Anyone calculated what a .100, .125, .140 and .165 width front sight would translate to in moa?

With the two moa Holosun dots, I run them in manual so I can bloom the dot and make them appear larger. Having a speck sized dot without an outer ring, like for example 1 moa, means I need to stare at the dot like a first focal reticle on low power. With a larger dot, I can leave the intensity down, look at the target and have the dot come into my vision without looking for it.

[CCT125US]

Anyone calculated what a .100, .125, .140 and .165 width front sight would translate to in moa?

You need the depth of front sight. For me it's 16 inches.


16/.100 width = 160

100yds = 3600"

3600/160 = 22.5 inch at 100yds

GRV for math check..

Or 3600/16 = 225 x .100 = 22.5

[WDR]

Anyone calculated what a .100, .125, .140 and .165 width front sight would translate to in moa?


This is a spot (6:20 ish) in a Sage Dynamics video, where I remembered seeing a chart of apparent MOA sizes. Of course, the length of ones arms matters...
https://youtu.be/y1MKmFdFBBQ?t=389

[Casual Friday]

I own a pair of type 2 RM06 RMRs and the only difference I can detect between my 3.25 MOA dot and my friends 6.5 MOA dot is the 6.5 bounces around a lot less, but that seems to almost be a non factor when shooting at speed since I'm shooting at the blur anyway. I can't say that I've ever noticed either being easier or harder to pick up but I don't think I paid much attention to it either.

I still have good vision though and no stickmuhtisms so I wonder if that is a factor as to why I don't really have a preference. That's what drove my friend to the 6.5 MOA dot.

[Archer1440]

First, let’s understand that the primary advantage of the red dot is that it allows us to focus on the target. For thousands of years, people have focused on the target/threat when engaging with a bow, spear, rock, sling, whatever. Firearms with sights have only been around ~400-450 years, but we are still wired to focus on the target/threat- which is why iron sights require a lot of training for peak proficiency, and is why RDS’s have a real advantage under pressure.

I will point out that in the other “target focus” sport I have competed in for the past 35 years, including being a 5 time USA Archery team member representing the nation at World Championships and the World Games, having coached members of the Japanese Olympic Archery team, and having been a technical official for my sport at six Olympic Games, it is a universal truth that when sight pins are used in Olympic archery, the smallest visible pin- when a pin is used- tends to be preferred. This wasn’t the case in the 1970’s up to the early 90’s, when a 1/8” or slightly smaller ball pin on a post was commonly used- but scores have increased 100 points on a 1440 point round since those times, and the wider adoption of smaller pins, starting in the mid/late 1990’s.

That’s not the only reason for the improvement, but it is a factor.

What we discovered over those years was that larger pins cause subconscious “peeking” around the pin as the archer attempted to focus on the target impact point, causing execution problems and open groups for a significant percentage of shooters. This is why some shooters use an open ring rather than a pin- a solution that works very well with the round Olympic target face, as the human eye does very well at lining up concentric circles. Mind you there is no rear sight on an Olympic recurve, just a front aperture or pin. A 0.012” fiber optic pin held 34-38 inches from one’s eye aimed on a 12.2 cm 10-ring at 70 meters appears quite small indeed.

Similarly, compound target shooters (who do have rear sights and magnified scope lenses) tend to prefer the smallest scope dots or pins (fiber optics inlaid into their scope lenses) that they can manage (except some of those with execution problems, some of whom resort to larger dots to obscure the center).

Similarly, bowhunters tend to prefer the smallest pins they can manage, so they can “pick a spot” on the targeted animal. 0.019” fiber optic pins held at 35 inches from the eye are pretty common in this application- and bowhunting frequently requires very fast target acquisition and shot execution with focus on the target.

I’ve also been shooting pistols for 30 years, and I would point out that this is one reason bullseye shooters have a 6 o’clock hold, precisely to help avoid the “peeking” phenomenon, whether they realize it or not- combat sighting is not suitable for precision over time, because it can cause the “peek” phenomenon in many shooters.

The smaller dot lends itself to greater precision than the larger dot, and I do feel that it can lead to better shot execution in a shorter time, at least for some shooters.

[YVK]

First, let’s understand...


That's an interesting perspective, thanks for sharing.

I think I'd agree that a smaller dot lends itself to greater precision. I myself am not a precision shooter. I haven't been able to realize such advantage of smaller dots over bigger ones. My USPSA driven standard is upper A at 25 yards, I want to hit it with a decent but not necessarily absolute percentage when I shoot in practice. In matches I just don't want to miss the former B zone at that distance. I have just finished my dry fire routine and confirmed seeing my appropriately intensity-adjusted 5 MOA dot well within a 2.5 inch circle at about 18 yards. That's good enough for me. That's for games but I would hope that this should be OK for defensive purposes too.

Other aspects of dot shooting dictate my preference for larger dots. When I shoot at the speed of seeing a streak rather than seeing a dot, I prefer larger and brighter streak. When I shoot a very close target, unless I choose not to confirm by seeing a dot at all, even the largest dot is very small. When I have to deal with dot washout, I want bigger and brighter dot option. So, while I agree that smaller dot should be better for precision, the overall decision is outweighed by other considerations.

[Archer1440]

Of course it’s an individual thing. One point I should have emphasized though- the larger dot may very influence proper trigger execution for some percentage of shooters, due to the factors I discussed. Certainly not all- but some.

[miller_man]

My experience's so far. Started with venom 3.0, then rmr 3.25, then SRO 5.0 and a rmr 7.0.

Honestly, the only one I view as really different and don't like is the rmr 7, but that is probably because it is not manually adjustable and the 7 moa dot does seem big on smaller targets. But still put have been drilling 2" circles at 10yds with 22lr kadet kit slide it sits on.

I have seen little difference and can't say I have much preference between the others as far as dot size goes. I mostly use the 2 SRO 5.0 as those are on my Carry optics guns.

Have a Holosun 508t milled on 34 slide returning this week, it'll be a new experience with the 2.0 dot - but don't expect it to be all that different.
USPSA B class, hopefully soon pushing into A class. Just my 0.02.

[Eyesquared]

I have made the point before and will make it again that a typical factory polymer frame striker fired gun is a 10moa gun. I am not concerned about unduly obscuring the target when the group my gun shoots off a bag is wider than the dot.

[JCN]

For slow fire precision, I would probably want a tiny dot.

For action pistol, I started with a big dot because it increased the effective window size of smaller window optics... you can track the 32MOA ring on a 507c even when the center dot is off the screen, leading to a “virtual window.”

This was when I was USPSA “B” level.

I also started with a 7.5MOA DPP triangle... because my trigger accuracy made a smaller dot pointless... if you can’t hit exactly where the dot is anyway... doesn’t really matter if it’s larger or smaller.

I used this to get to USPSA A.

As I got better, I moved to smaller dots for action pistol because I could place rounds where the dot was and at typical action pistol distances, the dot size was close to bullet hole size. Made mental sense to me.

There was some talk about going smaller... but I figured Max Michel ran a 6 MOA ish dot when he won many CO National championships so I don’t think it’ll be a liability for me in the foreseeable future.

I used a 5-6 MOA Romeo3Max and SRO to make M.

[CCT125US]

With an astigmatism, and monovision correction, I much prefer a dot that's 2 moa. However, I use the apex of the dot, as the peeking aspect mentioned by Archer1440 is an issue for me. Some may call it a training issue, but when the "dot" looks like a comet, or a fuzzy star, I do what works.

[GRV]

You need the depth of front sight. For me it's 16 inches.


16/.100 width = 160

100yds = 3600"

3600/160 = 22.5 inch at 100yds

GRV for math check..

Or 3600/16 = 225 x .100 = 22.5



Haven't read the whole thread but...


There's the math, and the gun presentation position (arm length, etc.) will factor in. Then, like people have mentioned there's all the issues surrounding focus, astigmatism, etc. With iron sights, I'm also convinced that there are other optical tricks that will factor in. I don't know if it's technically considered diffraction, but if you hold a black iron sight up against a bright light, you'll see light bleeding around the edges which will decrease the apparent width.

[noguns]

Have a 508t and a 407co. I've tried a 1 moa up to rm07 rmr. I tried the 32 moa,.dot only, and 8 moa ring. I prefer the 8 moa ring over the others I've tried.
It's just large enough, but precise when I want to by using the hole inside the "donut" .