Small town problems--whether to bother with training

[Moylan]

So I believe it's nearly universally agreed that BJJ is the gold standard for empty hand skill training. I do not have a reasonable option for BJJ training. The BJJ places nearest to me are frankly too far for me to drive consistently over the long term. Maybe not too far for you. But too far for me. (Know thyself...)

So my local options are things like "karate" or tae-kwon-do. My question is whether you think something is better than nothing.

I'm a middle aged office-worker-type guy with no martial arts background. I am not hoping to become a serious kick butt sort of person. I'm just interested in learning a bit of empty hand stuff. But is karate likely to be worse than nothing? Or is it likely to be decent but flawed? I realize that this is highly dependent on whether the lead instructor is a doofus, and so you likely can't give a really clear answer in the abstract. But I'd appreciate any guidance you're willing to offer.

[blues]

Top UFC stars like George St-Pierre, Lyoto Machida, and Chuck Liddell all had backgrounds in karate and made it part of their fighting careers.
...
Georges St-Pierre
Georges St-Pierre. ...
Lyoto Machida. ...
Stephen Thompson. ...
Chuck Liddell. ...
Robert Whittaker. ...
Bas Rutten. ...
Nick Diaz. ...
Katsunori Kikuno.

Also, have a look at:

https://medium.com/martial-arts-unleashed/best-karate-fighters-in-the-history-of-ufc-80942ae0061f


It may not be the perfect fit, but it will up your fitness, your ability to strike and your confidence. Just my opinion as one who spent some time many years ago in a Shotokan dojo and did quite a bit of full contact sparring at various meets.

[45dotACP]

It really will depend on the instructor.

If they offer "freestyle" sparring (x amount of time continuously throwing punches, kicks, strikes and sweeps) you will be better off than if they're a school that subscribes to "point fighting" where you reset after every contact to the head or torso.

That is basically tag. Taekwondo schools have the same issue. It will depend on the instructor.

You don't need to be doing hard contact sparring on the regular, but some place that makes you stop and reset every time you got bonked on the headgear will teach you nothing about how to strike in a meaningful way.

The other option is going there, making friends, buying mats for the garage/basement and working out together, trying new stuff without worrying about what sensei thinks.

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[Oukaapie]

Even shitty karate will teach timing, body dynamics, hitting hard. Karate punches have knocked out a lot of people. It may not be BJJ but it has its own worth.

In Cape Town before BJJ was even heard off, Goju, Shotokan, Shukokai, Ishin Ryu, Kyrkoshin Karateka were doing just fine knocking people out. Just find a serious school and augment gaps with seminars and guys you meet along the journey... especially boxers, judoka and wrestlers.

[Duces Tecum]

I'm a middle aged office-worker-type guy with no martial arts background. I am not hoping to become a serious kick butt sort of person. I'm just interested in learning a bit of empty hand stuff. But is karate likely to be worse than nothing? Or is it likely to be decent but flawed? I realize that this is highly dependent on whether the lead instructor is a doofus, and so you likely can't give a really clear answer in the abstract. But I'd appreciate any guidance you're willing to offer.

Regular boxing gets passed over more than I think it should.

[Moylan]

Regular boxing gets passed over more than I think it should.

Actually, if I had a choice between BJJ and boxing, I would definitely pick boxing. (Whether that's right or wrong.) But there's no boxing gym here, either.

[Moylan]

Thanks to everyone so far. Very helpful!

[Totem Polar]

May as well chime in here, since I have a dan ranking (black belt) in Okinawan Goju-ryu, and once ran my own dojo.

What people above say about Karate is true: the instructor and student population ultimately vivifies a particular art and to a large extent determines the value; timing, stance and body mechanics can be learned; lots of people have gotten their ass kicked by Karate-trained fighters; you want a little bit of striking training in your repertoire anyways; you’ll get some core fitness and definitely be more dangerous than less if you work hard for a few years.

That said, while nobody really wants to be in front of me in a striking-only bout, I’ve had my ass regularly handed to me on the ground by a pile of BJJ practitioners, so the consensus rings true for me—increasing my limited grappling skill is going to be my primary focus moving forward, probably for the rest of my active days.

And, *that* said, I was able to hold my own against a surprising number of BJJ white and blue belts while rolling as a total novice, because they still make mistakes, and I understand the way joints bend and lock, even if I have to think about it all from a new sideways perspective, while desperately trying to avoid spazzing out on the mat. I even tapped several of the gym’s blue belts a few times because they made an error, and I know how to bar an arm, even if my positioning and basics are completely lacking.

Lastly, a good dojo in almost anything will teach breakfalls from throws. If the place you are looking at trains takedowns and throws, you will lean how to fall while everyone throws you around. That stuff is golden, and well worth spending some time absorbing—just for walking around as an old guy in winter, if nothing else.

I really wish I had done BJJ as a kid, but that doesn’t mean that I didn’t get a bunch of good stuff out of TMA, since it was there and available at the time.

JMO.

[45dotACP]

Honestly, some friends with striking mitts, shinguards, and headgear and some boxing/kickboxing instructionals might be a solid choice. YouTube university is often snickered at, but it's made some dangerous dudes.

Guys like Lachlan Giles and Craig Jones from Australia are did extremely well in the competition BJJ scene because they watched Ryan Hall's 50/50 instructional and practiced leglocks, and that's a country with very little of the BJJ scene that we have in the States or in Europe or Brazil.

No chance that you live in the Midwest and there's a wrestling club nearby? Because wrestling is a heck of a way to control as well.

In truth, I'd put it on par with most BJJ for "self defense". I mean let's face it, if I'm in an unarmed fight, am I going to be snapping bones or tearing ACLs? Probably not. If it's one on one I'll look for a takedown, probably score it because most guys can't wrestle and I'll go to some type of pin and wait for the cops. If it's multiple attackers I'd be trying to stay standing and if I went to the ground I'd try to stand up.

That type of grappling is not solely the bailiwick of BJJ. Granted BJJ has some excellent control positions like back mount, that wrestling usually wouldn't use...but that's a small tweak.

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[Default.mp3]

Is there no wrestling, either? IIRC, Greco-Roman wrestling has been stated by Craig Douglas as being a very powerful tool while upright (boxing and Greco-Roman wrestling for upright, BJJ when grounded); dunno if there's a local school program for that or something that you might be able to tap into.

[HCM]

Regular boxing gets passed over more than I think it should.

Good boxing gyms are less common than BJJ Gyms.

[k_dub]

Tae Kwon-Do Black belt here. I agree with everything that Blues and Totem Polar said. As far as effectiveness goes, it's hard to beat BJJ. However, training in any martial art can give you valuable lessons beyond being able to defend yourself.

Being able to stay calm and perform under stress is another added benefit that can be learned from any martial art. You will probably find your ability to concentrate will improve.

Look for a school that is more concerned with teaching the art than winning trophies in tournaments or looking to sign you up for a "Black Belt" contract like a gym membership. The schools that lean more towards the traditional side tend to be better quality.

If it's Tae Kwon-Do you are considering, feel free to PM me with any questions.

[Mister X]

I’m of the opinion that some training can indeed be more detrimental than none. There are a lot of different styles of Karate, but I would recommend staying clear of most of them, if the goal is developing practical H2H skills. Shotokan was my first style and I spent many years studying it. Karate-Do systems like Shotokan will ingrain many bad habits that can be very difficult to unlearn once established. Chambering punches at the hip(often labeled “hikite”) for example is something I’d definitely never drill. They may have their roots in reasonably effective self-defense systems, but actual fighting skills became a secondary concern during the development of modern karate.

Shotokan is very much a case of generally misapplying what were mostly contact techniques(from Okinawan methods)inappropriately at longer ranges. It’s why the kata aren’t understood, the kihon make little sense and the kumite has little in common with the other two K’s. There are definitely some useful elements that can be derived from it, but it will be very difficult for a beginner to sort through it all and discern what’s useful. There are simply much better uses of time IMO.

Just my opinion, no offense to anyone.

[Mark D]

Keep your eyes open for Judo clubs. They're often small, and much less expense than BJJ.

Keep on eye on Craigs list and other local message boards for somebody offering private lessons. I did some Kali this way, one-on-one with a guy with a legit pedigree. And a boxer I know, with a good golden gloves record, does private lessons too.

Hell, I would be amazed if there wasn't a BJJ blue belt or purple belt somewhere nearby who just wants someone to train with. Post an advertisement.

Karate can be incredibly good or really lame, depending on the school. I spent some time in a dojo that focused on point fighting, and it helped my timing and accuracy. But I already had a couple years of boxing under my belt.

[EPF]

Personally, I wouldn’t spend the time and money on a TMA like Karate or TKD if my goal was self defense. Even if there are still such a thing as “serious” fight oriented TMA gyms, how likely is it that the ones in your remote location fit that description? If so how would you even judge that?

I know the guys making those recommendations are well intentioned and sincerely trying to help you, but it seems to me that the rise of the various MMA disciplines in popularity has led to the demise of a large percentage of the adult TMA programs, while kids after school programs and such are still prevalent.

I trained Muay Thai in a competition gym for 6 years before switching to BJJ full time because the repetitive nature of the daily training was taking a toll on my joints.

We had many guys there who came to us as high level competitive TMA black belts. All of them still loved their TMA and none of them regretted the physical skill, body control, and fitness they gained through it, but I never saw one walk in off the street and do well in sparring. That’s a hard lesson to swallow after spending 6-15 years and many thousands of dollars learning to fight.

My recommendation is to spend your excess time and energy working on your other “Batman” skills and keep looking for an opportunity to get into boxing, MT, bjj, wrestling etc. How is your general fitness? Have you considered taking up power lifting? What about medical skills? Driving? F.A.S.T time? etc.

Maybe even look into a foundational seminar like the ones Cecil puts on. You could probably travel to one of his classes for less than the cost of a TMA gym membership.

Just my opinion from a different perspective. Worth exactly what you paid for it. :)

Good luck.

[Shotgun]

Let me offer a perspective that has not yet been addressed - the small town problem. Having grown up in a small town, a mental image of the facilities immediately came to mind. If you are driving by the Karate and Tae Kwon Do dojos and wondering which one, I suggest going in and looking at both. A simple inspection of their facilities may make your decision very easy, at least very easy in elimination.

[blues]

Let me offer a perspective that has not yet been addressed - the small town problem. Having grown up in a small town, a mental image of the facilities immediately came to mind. If you are driving by the Karate and Tae Kwon Do dojos and wondering which one, I suggest going in and looking at both. A simple inspection of their facilities may make your decision very easy, at least very easy in elimination.

We only have one dojo (that I'm aware of) near where I live. (Somewhat rural, western NC). I wouldn't even set foot in the place from the ramshackle / unkempt look from the outside. Too bad, really.

To the OP, I hope you find something that will serve your needs.

[kobuksonhwacha]

You may be better off finding a regional seminar, grabbing a buddy, attending together, and then training in a garage/basement for sustainment. https://shivworks.com/course/ecqc-north-carolina-21/

[EPF]

This one may not be far from you


https://www.fpftraining.com/fpf-calendar/cecil-burch-immediate-action-ju-jitsu-101

[Doc_Glock]

You need a friend and a commitment to showing up, watching the videos and drilling. I had both for a while and found the instruction much better than what I received at a local BJJ gym. If I had stayed with it through their basic class with a partner I have no doubt I could have transitioned into a regular BJJ gym with no difficulty.

https://www.gracieuniversity.com/

[Duces Tecum]

Actually, if I had a choice between BJJ and boxing, I would definitely pick boxing. (Whether that's right or wrong.) But there's no boxing gym here, either.

Got it. Well, does your area have a program where knowledgeable police officers take kids off the street and teach them (among other things) boxing? I think it's sometimes called a Police Athletic League. Perhaps the coach would teach you privately.

Or is there a recently discharged Marine or two around? Probably other services have a good unarmed program as well, but the only one I have personal knowledge of is the Marine program. Maybe a USMC recruiter could introduce you.

Talk to the management at your local VFW. Any disreputable bars? A bouncer might be willing to teach you.

Good luck.

[Duces Tecum]

Ignore the double tap, please.

[Moylan]

Once again, thanks to everyone! This thread is what I hoped for and what I feared. Lots of well-reasoned arguments both for and against, but also some great suggestions that wouldn't have occurred to me like doing private lessons or trying to put together a local training group. Tons of great stuff for me to work on. Much appreciated!

Regarding some of the class suggestions--I am registered for ECQC next month. I definitely have my eye on Cecil Burch's classes, though I can't get to the upcoming ones that John Murphy is hosting. And I've already done a few unarmed self defense classes with local trainers. What I find is that without consistent practice, etc, I don't really retain the skills, so I need consistent practice. Not exactly a deep insight there, I know. :)

[Moylan]

Talk to the management at your local VFW. Any disreputable bars? A bouncer might be willing to teach you.

Don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty sure my county only just passed an ordinance allowing restaurants to serve mixed drinks about 3 or 4 years ago. We haven't had any time to develop disreputable bars yet! :)

[EPF]

Once again, thanks to everyone! This thread is what I hoped for and what I feared. Lots of well-reasoned arguments both for and against, but also some great suggestions that wouldn't have occurred to me like doing private lessons or trying to put together a local training group. Tons of great stuff for me to work on. Much appreciated!

Regarding some of the class suggestions--I am registered for ECQC next month. I definitely have my eye on Cecil Burch's classes, though I can't get to the upcoming ones that John Murphy is hosting. And I've already done a few unarmed self defense classes with local trainers. What I find is that without consistent practice, etc, I don't really retain the skills, so I need consistent practice. Not exactly a deep insight there, I know. :)

If your already enrolled in ECQC, then wait to make any decisions like signing a membership until after that. I think you will have a better perspective on how to proceed after. I’m sure it’s changed a lot since I attended but some of this will likely be covered. It will also provide a chance to ask SN direct questions about your options.

[FrankinCA]

Look into the local gyms...you might find a hidden gem. Many Kareteka have cross trained in BJJ and other grappling arts.

Also, check Gracie Combatives...there are individuals who are certified and train out of their garages. Good luck.

[ford.304]

Look into the local gyms...you might find a hidden gem. Many Kareteka have cross trained in BJJ and other grappling arts.

Also, check Gracie Combatives...there are individuals who are certified and train out of their garages. Good luck.

You might also just ask around and see if anyone wants to train. As the last year of quarantine has shown me, 12 months of garage work with a blue belt is still a lot better than no training at all.

[45dotACP]

You might also just ask around and see if anyone wants to train. As the last year of quarantine has shown me, 12 months of garage work with a blue belt is still a lot better than no training at all.Just ask some of the white belts I've been training with who have been submitting me lol

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[Shorikid]

Look into the local gyms...you might find a hidden gem. Many Kareteka have cross trained in BJJ and other grappling arts.

Also, check Gracie Combatives...there are individuals who are certified and train out of their garages. Good luck.Kind of like the 2nd degree who is a purple belt with a couple of strips? Who wrestled in high school and trained with pro kick boxer for a couple of years, teaching out of the back of a gym? Yeah, those guys don't exist. And I don't know their grappling dummy with a similar background.

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[MVS]

I’m of the opinion that some training can indeed be more detrimental than none. There are a lot of different styles of Karate, but I would recommend staying clear of most of them, if the goal is developing practical H2H skills. Shotokan was my first style and I spent many years studying it. Karate-Do systems like Shotokan will ingrain many bad habits that can be very difficult to unlearn once established. Chambering punches at the hip(often labeled “hikite”) for example is something I’d definitely never drill. They may have their roots in reasonably effective self-defense systems, but actual fighting skills became a secondary concern during the development of modern karate.

Shotokan is very much a case of generally misapplying what were mostly contact techniques(from Okinawan methods)inappropriately at longer ranges. It’s why the kata aren’t understood, the kihon make little sense and the kumite has little in common with the other two K’s. There are definitely some useful elements that can be derived from it, but it will be very difficult for a beginner to sort through it all and discern what’s useful. There are simply much better uses of time IMO.

Just my opinion, no offense to anyone.

Kyokushin veteran here. I always wondered (but only vaguely), why what we did for most of class, looked nothing like what we did when we sparred. Fortunately we did do a lot of hard sparring so I was able to learn what worked and what didn't to some extent, but there was always that weird disconnect.

[Mister X]

Kyokushin veteran here. I always wondered (but only vaguely), why what we did for most of class, looked nothing like what we did when we sparred. Fortunately we did do a lot of hard sparring so I was able to learn what worked and what didn't to some extent, but there was always that weird disconnect.

I can definitely relate. I stopped practicing Shotokan for the most part way back in 92. It just continually made less and less sense to me over time in the context of self-defense, although I didn’t have a clear understanding why things were done the way they were. Over the last few years, guys like Iain Abernethy, Patrick McCarthy and even Jesse Enkamp have done a good job of explaining the origins and historical development of karate systems. Their work has really put the pieces together and provided the evidence that I was correct in my decision to pursue a different path.

[EPF]

We are dabbling in the realm of “get a shotgun because you don’t have to aim” level of advice for a beginner here

I suppose one could find a former golden gloves bouncer who teaches American Kenbokujitso out of the loft above the barn he rented while cleaning up the local honkey tonk.

Or, we could do the standard PF thing we do with shooting and realize we live in an amazing time where we have access to experts. Experts who have already done the work for us, thus allowing a huge gain in time and resource efficiency.

Then do the work

[Mark D]

We are dabbling in the realm of “get a shotgun because you don’t have to aim” level of advice for a beginner here

I suppose one could find a former golden gloves bouncer who teaches American Kenbokujitso out of the loft above the barn he rented while cleaning up the local honkey tonk.



Dalton is legit, yo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oByMeAfwARs


Kyokushin veteran here. I always wondered (but only vaguely), why what we did for most of class, looked nothing like what we did when we sparred. .


And since this is a technical subforum, I'll add that I've had a very similar disconnect going from FoF all day, to a square range qual that same evening. Like night and day.

(Side note: I've always been impressed with Kyokushin. The kumite looked intense.)

[EPF]

I've always been impressed with Kyokushin. The kumite looked intense.)

You managed to find the only positive descriptor I can think of for this 😂. You should be a diplomat!


https://youtu.be/9NICLQaT9u8

[PNWTO]

Grapplers Guide, and the rest of Jason’s “-guide” sites are great value for the money; wait for a Memorial Day sale or similar. Tony Blauer also has some good stuff available virtually.

[Mister X]

I would add to use extreme caution no matter what you pursue. Considering your outlined goals, it’s just not worth beating yourself up or risking getting seriously injured, especially so at this point in your life.

And to be honest, the martial arts are full of very damaged(both mentally and physically) people. As the president of the WKF once told me, we are all here(at a high level) due to something lacking in ourselves or our lives. We may have been bullied or abused as children, are insecure or maybe lacked discipline/direction in our lives and started creating mischief. Those are many of the instructors you will encounter, no matter what art or system you decide to study.

I’ll be turning 50 this year, and if I had to do it all over again, I don’t think I would have trained at all or just maybe some very minimal actual self-defense training. I’ve never been in any altercations I didn’t essentially put myself in. Most martial arts have little to do with personal protection and more about being and seeing who is the biggest, baddest silverback gorilla in the room. I played those monkey games for far too long, but feel like I’m getting a grip on it after decades and emancipating myself from that nonsense and look forward to a future free from it. It may sound odd, but it can very hard for certain personality types to get away from it.

The point is be very careful, since there are people who won’t hesitate to hurt you and hurt you bad or expect you to abuse your body and that is the antithesis of real self-defense training.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I guess you're too far south to join a hockey team?

[EPF]

Newton’s 27th law of physics:

Any internet thread about martial arts gets weird.

[Mister X]

Newton’s 27th law of physics:

Any internet thread about martial arts gets weird.

Not at all surprising considering how strange many serious martial artists happen to be.

[Moylan]

I guess you're too far south to join a hockey team?
Originally from yankeeland. Proudly non-yankee now. Growing up, the local youth hockey players had access to the college rink for practice, at 0-dark-thirty. This did not appeal to me for some reason.

[EPF]

Not at all surprising considering how strange many serious martial artists happen to be.

it’s almost like you are the corroboration for your suppositions

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Originally from yankeeland. Proudly non-yankee now. Growing up, the local youth hockey players had access to the college rink for practice, at 0-dark-thirty. This did not appeal to me for some reason.

Well, I'm out of suggestions for places to get fighting practice in a small town. The only other option around here would be logging camps and you want a good bit of hockey before you step up to that level.

[Mister X]

it’s almost like you are the corroboration for your suppositions

I wasn’t excluding myself. Abuse tends to beget abuse. People often trust individuals they shouldn’t and end up paying a hefty price after allowing predators access to them or their children. Not that bad people aren’t everywhere, it’s just that the martial arts provide an effective cover for many forms of abuse.

[Cecil Burch]

Be EXTREMELY careful of walking into a local wrestling club as a stranger with no experience, an adult, and no interest in competing. There is a very good chance they will see you as cannon fodder and throw you around for a couple of hours for their own edification and then send you on your way. 99% of wrestling clubs exist solely as a competitive training group and are almost always focused on 7-30 year old athletes. They tend to have zero interest in spending time with folks who will never compete for them and are essentially - to their eyes - "dabbling" in wrestling. Those of us who have deep wrestling training got it generally in one of two ways. Either we did it growing up as competitive practitioners and athletes, or made connections to wrestlers through our other martial training (usually BJJ or MMA). I was blessed to get phenomenally high level Greco coaching from a great wrestler because he wanted to learn submissions and striking, so we traded. Howard would not have spent any time on me if I was just some guy off the street.

Greco is a great base, but the chance that you will find a club in the USA is as good as wining the Powerball, and even if you find one, it will most likely be under the limitations I outlined above. Greco is not popular in the US in any way, and very few wrestlers here have more than a very general idea of what it entails.

If you have a college near by, you may find a Judo club there. Judo, while a competitive sport, still retains its martial antecedents and generally welcomes noobs who are not going to compete. Outside of cloth grips (which is far more useful for self-defense than most people realize). judo has many similarities to Greco.

If you are going to ECQC, talk to Craig about steps to build a training group for yourself. You don't need that many people. 3-4 like minded folks are plenty, and with having gone through ECQC, you will have a basic game plan to work on.

[Clobbersaurus]

Man, reading threads like this make me appreciate my school so much more. Family oriented, a good mix of Kickboxing, BJJ, AND Wrestling. No ego's, lots of feedback and support. I'm still learning, but I can't wait to get back to sparing...damn Covid.