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LittleLebowski
07-05-2012, 03:05 PM
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2010/08/the-case-for-two-guns.html

Let's not let this get unprofessional.

NickA
07-05-2012, 03:23 PM
A few thoughts :
Down in the comments he makes it clear that he's not talking about dual wielding per se, just carrying a second gun that way.
I'm pretty sure he favors RDS equipped pistols, seems that even one with an RDS, much less two, would get crowded real quick.
Can't really see it working for me, but it's intriguing, especially if the off side gun were smaller (say a G26 with a 17).

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

Shawn.L
07-05-2012, 03:42 PM
the notion of a back up gun is nothing new.

jstyer
07-05-2012, 05:39 PM
But... You only have one appendix! Maybe it should be called other strong appendix carry.

In all seriousness though, doesn't putting your backup gun in a separate place from your primary allow you to access it if you were in a situation where you could not reach your primary?

I seems running two guns in the appendix position limits your ability to surreptitiously grab a weapon if you couldn't access your main shooter.

Is the idea that if your gun goes down during a fight it'd be an easy draw for the second one? If so, I find that more unlikely than needing to grab a second gun from a different location.

Mr_White
07-05-2012, 05:49 PM
I used to carry mirror image strong and support side regular IWB at about 4 and 8 o'clock.

First G21s, then later G17s.

There was a winding thought process that led to that, but once I did it I really liked it, until I switched to AIWB, which I like much better.

I did briefly try dual AIWB, but it was dreadfully uncomfortable, maybe because it was new, and I don't think I tried it with very good holsters. Since dual AIWBs are closer together than dual regular IWBs, things did indeed get too crowded, which I think was a lot of the comfort issue. The bulk of the support side gun and holster also messed up my cover garment clearance with my support hand a little bit. That was the last time I tried it.

That said, I very much appreciate a second full size handgun, and one dedicated to support side access.

When I was running the mirror image regular IWBs, those, plus my other gear amounted to me being able to reach a gun or knife from just about any position if I were conscious and had one arm free.

Of course, it was yet another object to need to keep an attacker away from in a clinching or grappling situation, which always nagged at me a bit.

ToddG
07-05-2012, 06:11 PM
SLG and I have discussed this idea a number of times, though with a more appropriate BUG for the second gun. The biggest problem I have with it is that it puts both guns (and a knife, if you carry a CP) all in one place. If someone tries to grab, you've got multiple weapons to protect simultaneously while the BG just needs to pick the one you can't get a hand on.

smithjd
07-05-2012, 06:36 PM
At an IALEFI conference a while back, "D" and I were teaching a 'Concealed Carry' class... A couple guys from Las Vegas Metro PD came to the class, each rocking two Grocks (one with lights on each, which was somewhat new back then), Yosemite Sam style (not drop leg, though). In between the glocks on the hips were about 8 magazines. A button up shirt was worn for "concealment".

To be fair, those guys could shoot! SHO, WHO, it didn't matter. Reloads (obviously well practiced) were fun to watch.

I couldn't help myself and after a while did comment that their carry method didn't seem to comply with the spirit of a concealed carry class, to which one of them said, "This is what I wear to the grocery store." In a moment of rapid lucidity, I immediately replied, "Then I would move..."

ToddG
07-05-2012, 06:39 PM
I actually took the class they (the LVMPD guys) were teaching that year and they demonstrated their "CQB" technique, which involved drawing both guns simultaneously, punching them out to full extension heavily canted (almost gangster style but not quite), and emptying both mags on a target 5' away as fast as they could.

Dropkick
07-05-2012, 07:24 PM
Come on guys, you're breaking the rules... What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. :cool:

Tamara
07-05-2012, 07:34 PM
...would get crowded real quick.

All CCW is a balance between comfort and "enough gun".

I have an upper limit on things I am willing to cram into my waistband, and that upper limit is right around one service-sized auto. There is usually one (or sometimes even two!) small-ish revolvers secreted on or about my person elsewhere, but that's pretty much where my limit is.

If somebody wants to carry more, then I've got no beef with that. One person I respect carries a pair of 5" Gov't Models and that's cool, but it's more prepared than I'm willing to be, and I'm comfortable saying that.

Wes Peart
07-05-2012, 09:32 PM
This reminds me of a certain local deputy a friend is acquainted with who carries two Sig P225's (yes, a single stack 9mm :confused:) in a "Face Off" style holster while off duty, no joke.

While I wouldn't carry two pistols like that, if someone else can at an acceptable level of comfort for them... There's no doubt another full size pistol is vastly superior to a J frame or smaller BUG that most people would carry.

BaiHu
07-05-2012, 11:06 PM
Thanks for posting that LL it was very well thought out from start to finish even if, for reasons others stated, it wouldn't be my cup of tea. Any chance he updated his opinion on this at a later date? Sorry if I could find that answer on his site-I'm on my phone so it's not as easy to navigate.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

GOP
07-06-2012, 12:12 AM
To me, it is a dumb idea. It sounds cool in theory, until you are rolling on the ground in a fight and the bad guy has two guns to grab. As said above, both guns are kept in the same place so if for some reason your appendix/centerline is difficult to access (think: in a clinch), you are screwed. It is also VERY uncomfortable, I've tried it.

I can't think of a time as a civilian where I was purposely going to a place where I would think I'd 2 full-sized BUG's. If I was going to that place, you better believe I'd have a rifle and some friends. If I'm going out during the summer, sometimes I carry my Beretta Nano (7 rounds) AIWB, so the thought of 2 full sized AIWB's is almost laughable to me.

GJM
07-06-2012, 12:35 AM
1) I have a left hand AIWB from Dark Star for a J frame, which I sometimes carry in combination with a 10mm in a conventional AIWB -- but the reason is practical not tactical. I want my 317 available for shooting game birds, since a 10mm makes a mess of the meat. The 317 is small and thin enough, it almost disappears.

2) As a take away from my RDS experiment earlier this year, I have decided that if I am going to carry a RDS equipped pistol, it will be in combination with a conventionally sighted pistol. I would think, for example, a G17/RMR in a Fricke Gideon on the right hip, with an iron sighted G17 in an AIWB holster, with 1 spare magazine would be about an ideal set-up for a wide range of scenarios.

3) After almost getting stomped by a moose 17 months ago, I have often taken to carrying a second handgun (either a 10mm or a .44) in a chest rig over the top of my outer jacket while snowshoeing in the winter.

4) While the primary handgun is easy to carry in a default position, I see a secondary as being very dependent upon situation and attire, and thus moving around.

JM Campbell
07-06-2012, 02:52 AM
Well I'll see how it is in a few weeks. My plan was to run a M&Pfs 9 RH AIWB and a Shield LH AIWB (more to the 2:00). I'm not a small guy and have some space to play with. If it works, great if not there is always a dedicated LH AIWB holster for me to practice with in the event I injury my RH like I have in the past.

I guess if NickA is game we can see (for me) how it would suck in a clinch. I'm willing to see if it's viable for me. Who knows some one might get lucky and get a DarkStarGear LH AIWB on the cheap in the trade/sale section in a month or two.

TCinVA
07-06-2012, 07:29 AM
I've actually almost stopped carrying a backup/secondary gun lately.

JV_
07-06-2012, 07:32 AM
All CCW is a balance between comfort and "enough gun".
Exactly. For me, my Glock 17 is sufficient. And I know many will scoff at this, but I don't even carry a spare mag.

ToddG
07-06-2012, 07:34 AM
And I know many will scoff at this, but I don't even carry a spare mag.

<SCOFF!>

TCinVA
07-06-2012, 07:49 AM
Exactly. For me, my Glock 17 is sufficient. And I know many will scoff at this, but I don't even carry a spare mag.

...I feel like I don't even know you.

ToddG
07-06-2012, 07:52 AM
...I feel like I don't even know you.

You've met him. He's this guy (http://pistol-training.com/archives/5543).

JV_
07-06-2012, 07:59 AM
You've met him. He's this guy (http://pistol-training.com/archives/5543).It's a good thing you can't un-earn them :cool:

ToddG
07-06-2012, 08:03 AM
It's a good thing you can't un-earn them :cool:

You and me both, brother. I did a FAST demo in a class once that went so poorly, a student actually called out, "Do you have to melt your coin, now?" :p

joshs
07-06-2012, 08:08 AM
You've met him. He's this guy (http://pistol-training.com/archives/5543).

How did he do that without a spare mag?

ToddG
07-06-2012, 08:11 AM
How did he do that without a spare mag?

Pure natural born awesomeness, I assume.

Cool Breeze
07-06-2012, 09:10 AM
not to be controversial here (just trying to add to the discussion), but I actually talked with Gabe about it at a class I took with him and he said that he rarely if ever carries dual appendix. Perhaps he was just writing the article as a kind of thesis of potential back up gun placement options, IDK. I, for one, think carrying that way would be incredibly uncomfortable.

JMS
07-06-2012, 10:08 AM
I don't even carry a spare mag.

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/4533/verklempt.jpg

:p

Jay Cunningham
07-06-2012, 10:13 AM
I've actually almost stopped carrying a backup/secondary gun lately.

I've carried a BUG several times, but quite frankly I just lose interest in the CCW arms race and rarely do anymore. I always carry a spare magazine for my Glock 19 though.

One time I do like to carry a BUG is when I'm at the range. There's plenty of times where it's easy to get caught dry when doing drills and I like to have at least an LCR or J Frame in my pocket.

Tamara
07-06-2012, 10:30 AM
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/4533/verklempt.jpg

:p

...and that's the internets for today, folks. You can put your pens down, submissions are closed. :D

LittleLebowski
07-06-2012, 11:42 AM
Thanks for posting that LL it was very well thought out from start to finish even if, for reasons others stated, it wouldn't be my cup of tea. Any chance he updated his opinion on this at a later date? Sorry if I could find that answer on his site-I'm on my phone so it's not as easy to navigate.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Not that I know of but I'll find out for you.

JodyH
07-06-2012, 12:23 PM
Like Jay the only time I carry a spare gun is at the range, heck I only carry a spare mag maybe 50% of the time.
I guess I'm just a dead man walking with my P2000SK 10+1 9mm.
:p

Zhurdan
07-06-2012, 02:35 PM
Like Jay the only time I carry a spare gun is at the range, heck I only carry a spare mag maybe 50% of the time.
I guess I'm just a dead man walking with my P2000SK 10+1 9mm.
:p

Dead man walking because you'd run out of bullets or because one heavy malfunction could turn your gun into a brick? :D

Main reason I carry a spare mag is in the event of a malfunction, as I'm sure many people do.

*ETA* Not bashing, asking because I wonder if the spare mag for malfunction thing is past it's prime when dealing with quality modern autos. I wouldn't think so, but so many of you are farther up the food chain than little ol' me.

GOP
07-06-2012, 03:08 PM
Like Jay the only time I carry a spare gun is at the range, heck I only carry a spare mag maybe 50% of the time.

I'm in the same boat a lot of the time. I guess I'm dead too ;)

My Nano and a spare mag is what I go to most of the time. That, with my blade and training in various things, should allow me to survive the vast majority of trips to my local Wal-mart, my local park, or going shopping with my girlfriend.

JodyH
07-06-2012, 03:11 PM
...one heavy malfunction could turn your gun into a brick?
Then I'll just have to beat them to death with my very expensive "brick".
It is what it is.

GOP
07-06-2012, 03:18 PM
Dead man walking because you'd run out of bullets or because one heavy malfunction could turn your gun into a brick? :D

Main reason I carry a spare mag is in the event of a malfunction, as I'm sure many people do.

*ETA* Not bashing, asking because I wonder if the spare mag for malfunction thing is past it's prime when dealing with quality modern autos. I wouldn't think so, but so many of you are farther up the food chain than little ol' me.

That is the only reason I carry a spare anymore. The number of civilians involved in sustained gun fights requiring 15+ rounds is almost unheard of (minus gangsters which obviously don't count), but the cost of having a malf is more likely IMO.

ToddG
07-06-2012, 03:29 PM
It's a cost/benefit thing for me:

benefit -- minor; unlikely that I'll ever need a reload but possible either due to malfunction (mag problems in most modern semiauto pistols are rare) or actually having more than one mag's worth of Bad Guy to deal with

cost -- practically zero; the cost of a pouch is next to nothing, it takes up no real space on my belt, and is easier to conceal than the gun

It's easy, it doesn't hurt anything, and may make a difference. Why not, then?

David Armstrong
07-06-2012, 03:32 PM
I've actually almost stopped carrying a backup/secondary gun lately.

And I know many will scoff at this, but I don't even carry a spare mag.
Welcome to the Dark Side.....:cool:
(from a guy who pretty much quit carrying spare guns and mags over a decade ago!)

NickA
07-06-2012, 03:41 PM
I usually don't carry a spare mag but feel like I should. I keep thinking of one robbery video I saw where the clerk produced a gun, fired a few shots then accidentally ejected the mag in the middle of the fight. An unlikely scenario but I'm not too proud to think it couldn't happen to me.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

fuse
07-09-2012, 02:43 AM
I most always carry a spare mag, but most often its in a pocket. Not always, though.

Tamara
07-09-2012, 09:48 AM
I don't think I've carried a spare mag since I went back to carrying plastic bullet hoses, whereas I carried one most of the time when I was carrying 1911s. I sometimes feel a twinge of Tactical Guilt about it, but it passes.

I'm a lot more likely to have a second gun than a second mag these days.

vcdgrips
07-10-2012, 09:39 AM
Query- are second mags and second guns mutually exclusive? I think not and tend to go forth so equipped. Perhaps it is training with a bunch of old school Gunsite guys that drove home the need for an extra mag (or two when I was a 1911 guy). I blame Tom Givens and a regional instructor for the second gun.

YMMV Greatly,

David

Tamara
07-10-2012, 09:43 AM
Query- are second mags and second guns mutually exclusive?

Of course not.

MDFA
07-12-2012, 06:27 AM
I don't think I could carry two full size fighting pistols AIWB with any degree of comfort. Also theres the issue of access, to both the carrier and an assailant in a struggle. I do carry a 5in. 1911 IWB, 2 spare magazines and a 442 ankle carry and a speedloader. Magazines are not a hugh issue for me as I'm already concealing a substantial pistol. The BUG is more a function of arming a companion, although it is a fast reload. That's what works for me. YMMV

JFK
07-12-2012, 09:38 AM
The only thing that comes to mind for me is..... "How does he go to the bathroom with all the ***t on?"

JodyH
07-12-2012, 03:17 PM
442 ankle carry..... The BUG is more a function of arming a companion, although it is a fast reload.
Either your ankle draw technique is superhumanly fast, or your reloads are glacially slow.


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senorlechero
07-13-2012, 04:21 PM
2 guns is a good idea, 2 guns in the same spot, not so much IMO. If I could conceal at 9 O'clock I would consider carrying there as well as AIWB.

Not carrying a reload is a terrible idea IMO. It takes more than 1,2 or even 3 rounds to kill someone, criminals rove in packs just like dogs, so the round count could add up quickly.

The most recent ambush video I watched invovled 5 POS vs 1 SAOAFR unarmed civilian. So lets say it takes 3 rounds each, that leaves you with 2 if you're carrying a full size 9mm. And leaves you dry if you carry a Glock 19, and leaves you wanting if you carry anything in .45.

Just sayin'

MDFA
07-13-2012, 07:03 PM
Either your ankle draw technique is superhumanly fast, or your reloads are glacially slow.


Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

Ever heard of the New York Reload ? And as I said it's more to arm a companion. My 442 from the ankle would be a LAST Resort.

JodyH
07-13-2012, 09:17 PM
Ever heard of the New York Reload ? And as I said it's more to arm a companion. My 442 from the ankle would be a LAST Resort.
NY reloads are over rated as far as speed goes.
I can reload from slidelock in under 2 seconds "shot to shot".
I know very few people (as in zero) who can drop their primary, draw their backup gun and make a hit in under 2 seconds.
Any companions i'd trust with a gun... are carrying their own and dont need me to arm them.
Ankle guns are great for access while seated, other than that I'd rather have a knife or a good pair of running shoes.

Duces Tecum
07-16-2012, 03:19 PM
Ankle guns are great for access while seated, other than that I'd rather have a knife or a good pair of running shoes.

Jody's right. In dealing with a human threat within arm's reach, a pistol or a knife is a tactical tossup.

Honest.

Duces Tecum
07-16-2012, 03:30 PM
A "double appendix inside waist band" holster is difficult to imagine. Just for clarity, couldn't we refer to one of those things worn on the left side as a SpleenIWB (SIWB)?

A right-hander might use an AIWB. A left-hander may well prefer a SIWB. Some folks might wear S/AIWB.

Wendell
07-16-2012, 10:09 PM
A "double appendix inside waist band" holster is difficult to imagine. Just for clarity, couldn't we refer to one of those things worn on the left side as a SpleenIWB (SIWB)?

A right-hander might use an AIWB. A left-hander may well prefer a SIWB. Some folks might wear S/AIWB.

http://bellcharteroakholsters.com/nyriwbrev.JPG


NEW YORK RELOAD INSIDE WAISTBAND Available for S&W J frames, Colt Detective Special and similar frame sizes with 2 inch barrels only.http://bellcharteroakholsters.com/iwb.html

Motor-T
07-27-2012, 12:55 PM
Anybody that carries fewer guns / ammo / reloads than I do is woefully unprepared. Anybody that carries more is a is a paranoid weirdo. :p

Tamara
07-27-2012, 08:11 PM
Anybody that carries fewer guns / ammo / reloads than I do is woefully unprepared. Anybody that carries more is a is a paranoid weirdo. :p

You are wise in the ways of the internet! :D

JAD
07-28-2012, 07:38 AM
Anybody that carries fewer guns / ammo / reloads than I do is woefully unprepared. Anybody that carries more is a is a paranoid weirdo. :p

And anyone who carries a different gun than mine (or my instructor) is a hobbyist.

Lost River
12-09-2012, 04:22 PM
A little bit of a necropost.

That being said, in regards to the subject of carrying a spare mag and/or BUG when carrying a modern plastic wonder UberPistol such as a P30 or G19 (I carry the latter). My thought process has been that a pistol is a mechanical device, therefore it is subject to failure.

I often take that same thought process: A _____ is a mechanical device, therefore subject to failure, and apply such words as magazine, thumb safety, etc.

My primary G19 that I carry off duty is an early 2000s Gen 3 and has been a very reliable pistol. I do however still carry a spare mag for it quite often.

On duty I carry an issued full size M&P.40 plus one spare mag. I have zero choice or input in the matter of firearms selection. I carry a personally owned Crimson Trace equipped 442 as a BUG. Most often it rides in the left front pocket of my pants or jacket, depending on the temps and season(I am right handed and work plain clothed).This way when I am talking to someone I have not assessed is a threat or not, I have my gun already in my hand, but appear to have a casual demeanor to them.

Just another way.

JRas
12-10-2012, 02:30 PM
I actually took the class they (the LVMPD guys) were teaching that year and they demonstrated their "CQB" technique, which involved drawing both guns simultaneously, punching them out to full extension heavily canted (almost gangster style but not quite), and emptying both mags on a target 5' away as fast as they could.

THUG LIFE!

In all seriousness, I can't imagine carrying a second full-size backup. I can understand a backup, but we're talking small.

IMO carrying a second magazine is a no brainer, if anything it evens out the weight. The cost of size and weight is worth it! If your carrying a blade over a spare magazine, your delusional.. and should consult a Doctor immediately :D.

The win/failure (double-edged sword?) of the semi-automatic IS the magazine.

my2cents/

YammyMonkey
12-13-2012, 10:02 AM
With an ECQC per year since 2007, I've seen the usefulness & applications of small blades increase every year. The guys that have them are continually impressed with the ability to employ them when entangled. Especially small fixed blades like the Clinch Pick or TDI. You still have to follow the timing rules laid out by Craig, but to say that choosing a blade over a reload is a sign of mental defect, while humorous, is simply misguided in a wide range of scenarios.

As for the dueling AIWB setup, I see that being more suitable for some of the thin compact pistols like the Shield or PPS. It would still be a slim package and offer 7-9 rounds each. There are more retention issues, but I think that compared to other backup gun methods, having one area to worry about would be easier to manage than trying to deal with paying attention to what's going on at points A & B.

ToddG
12-13-2012, 10:07 AM
There are more retention issues, but I think that compared to other backup gun methods, having one area to worry about would be easier to manage than trying to deal with paying attention to what's going on at points A & B.

I'm not convinced that's the case, though. While it's true that having guns in separate locations means you have to be able to defend both locations, the odds of both locations being attacked simultaneously are probably slim... especially if, unlike most training environments, the attacker(s) cannot immediately key in on locations because they already know where all your guns are.

With the dual aiwb rig, you have one location with multiple weapons to protect. That means you have to do a lot of work to protect everything at once, while the other guy just needs to get his hands on one of the guns. It gives him a big advantage and eliminates one of the retention benefits aiwb brings in the first place.

Mr_White
12-13-2012, 12:56 PM
This is all an evolution, but this is my current thinking (doesn’t mean it’s right):

Weapon retention isn’t just about your own weapons’ specific locations, but also very much about controlling the other person’s hands - there are only two of them - and in achieving positions of advantage that negate his ability to use his hands effectively.

There is a lot of idiosyncrasy in retention and access advantage and disadvantage, depending on the body positions of the people involved, in combination with the specific locations of the guns and knives.

More guns and knives means both more to defend and more flexible access from different relative positions. But the other guy still only has two hands. Multiple attackers sucks.

A problem can occur if there is over-reliance on very flexible weapon access to the neglect and detriment of achieving positions of advantage.

Exploration of these issues has led me down an evolution that started years and years ago, as I progressed through conventional strong side pistol and support side folding knife carry, to mirror image strong and support side pistols, to those plus an AIWB fixed blade, now to strong side AIWB pistol and support side AIWB fixed blade and a lot more emphasis on hand control and achievement of dominant positions (certainly not claiming a high level of skill in that…)

But I believe now that just adding more weapons so I can reach something from any position won’t overcome the problems posed by being in a bad position. Having more than one option is good. Having a lot of options can bring another set of problems but can also end up being an advantage. It’s important to train to exploit the advantages and manage the disadvantages that any given carry setup will inherently have.

YammyMonkey
12-13-2012, 01:00 PM
When Craig sets a solid elbow pin I can pick him off the ground & sling him around like a hate-filled rag doll & my hand won't come loose. The gun grabbing arm is pretty much useless to me at that point. Couple that with a good tie on my other, available, arm & I'm SOL.

I don't think this is for everyone, and I haven't had a chance test it out, but I think dismissing the dual AIWB method out of hand over retention concerns is a little premature.

ToddG
12-13-2012, 01:03 PM
Out of hand? I'm not sure where that came from.

It's something that other folks have played with and found flawed. SLG and I have been having this discussion -- and spent some time during a cross country trip experimenting with it -- for quite a while. That doesn't mean the conclusion I came to is universal or correct, but being able to lock down and protect one gun is a lot easier than being able to do it to two.

Mr_White
12-13-2012, 01:10 PM
I very briefly tried dual AIWB but it never got past just trying the guns on. It was dreadfully uncomfortable. Everything starts getting poked in un-nice ways.

Cecil Burch
12-13-2012, 01:30 PM
It's something that other folks have played with and found flawed. SLG and I have been having this discussion -- and spent some time during a cross country trip experimenting with it -- for quite a while. That doesn't mean the conclusion I came to is universal or correct, but being able to lock down and protect one gun is a lot easier than being able to do it to two.


But it is much easier to deal with a gun grab (or, for that matter, ANY hand attack) that is in front of your hips, rather than on them or behind them. Yes, there are more things you have to worry about (two things he can grab) but you can see the attempts better, and have a much greater capacity to negate them. As soon as you have things behind you, your leverage is compromised. The ability to compress in with both elbows is a very easy skill set to acquire, one that is probably easier to acquire and retain than more intricate moves. Having the elbows and a compressed torso doing most of the work also allows more freedom of your hands to be more offensive.

I am not saying that you can't defeat a gun grab at 3:00-5:00, but it is much more difficult. Is it more difficult than defending two guns AIWB? I think that is a personal decision. One that probably should be reached only after a decent amount of pressure testing from a resisting opponent(s) with opposing will and freedom of action.

Of course, this is coming from a guy who chooses not to carry a 2nd gun in the first place, so take my POV with a grain of salt :o

NickA
12-13-2012, 02:24 PM
The ability to compress in with both elbows is a very easy skill set to acquire, one that is probably easier to acquire and retain than more intricate moves. Having the elbows and a compressed torso doing most of the work also allows more freedom of your hands to be more offensive.


That's one of the things I really liked about the CMD and IAJJ default positions you teach combined with AIWB. Between the hunched over posture and firmly planted elbows it seems it would be very difficult for someone to access your pistol, plus you're very aware of the gun and any hands trying to grab it.

YammyMonkey
12-13-2012, 03:14 PM
Sorry Todd, the out of hand wasn't directed at you in particular, but for someone who might be reading this thread & be tempted to dismiss it out of hand.

ToddG
12-13-2012, 04:55 PM
Cecil -- While I don't know a tenth as much about this stuff as you and Craig, I'm 100% in agreement that aiwb has real benefits in terms of retention. That's something I've been saying since I first started using it in '08. To my simple layman non-BJJ mind, it's the choice to fight a dude in front of me, or fight a dude standing beside or behind me. I feel like I've got a lot better ability to get involved on the front side.

So I'm not arguing aiwb is bad in retention situations. What I'm saying is that when you switch from a single gun to two guns, YOU need to protect two things while the BG only needs to get to one. And because they're right next to each other, it's very easy for him to switch from the one that is best protected/locked down to the other one. He might even do it accidentally because his hands or arms or body is likely to contact the second gun even if he didn't originally know it was there.

Cecil Burch
12-14-2012, 11:38 AM
So I'm not arguing aiwb is bad in retention situations. What I'm saying is that when you switch from a single gun to two guns, YOU need to protect two things while the BG only needs to get to one. And because they're right next to each other, it's very easy for him to switch from the one that is best protected/locked down to the other one. He might even do it accidentally because his hands or arms or body is likely to contact the second gun even if he didn't originally know it was there.


I don't disagree that you are 100% correct, that it IS harder to deal with two guns up front than one. Where I differ a bit is that I don't think it is THAT much more difficult, to the level that I would dismiss this mode. If I am using my body compression and keep my elbows connected to my ribs or hipbone, I can protect both the same way, while still leaving some freedom of my hands to counter and fight back. There is also the factor that he is only going to be optimized to grip one way. When/if he goes for the other gun, he won't be in as good a position to grab because he will have to torque his arm/wrist/ or hand to grab the gun facing the other direction, or use his weaker hand while you (the defender) don't have to alter anything you do. The position of my body and elbows are what I do anyway to fight, so I am not adding a new and complex skill (weapon retention), just using what I do anyway to accomplish the task. And make no mistake, that level of ability to retain a weapon takes commitment to practice, so I am not being cavalier and suggesting this is easy overall, because it is not. We are in total agreement in that sense.

Again, this is a little academic for me, since I don't carry dual AIWB. I do however usually carry either a clinchpick or disciple and there is some carry over into this discussion in the sense I have to be careful the BG does not grab the blade, so I have some experience here.

ETA: I thought about what I wrote and I am afraid, that once again, I am not communicating well in the written form (the sad thing is I am not any better when I am speaking).

I just wanted to clarify that I agree with Todd's point that it ups the ante of difficulty considerably with dual AIWB. What I was trying to get across that I disagree on where that level ends up. If Todd thinks it is 80% harder (I am picking a totally arbitrary number) that might be past his comfort level. If I think it is 40% more difficult, that may a point that I find acceptable. The only way to really decide with any kind of surety means you have to test it out and find if it is too much for you. I am NOT saying there is no problem with dual AIWB. I don't want to give the impression that I am endorsing the idea that dual carry is no harder than single AIWB.

ToddG
12-14-2012, 12:05 PM
Understood. FWIW, I carry a CP there, too. I guess my belief (hope may be a better word) is that if he thinks he's fighting over a gun and pulls out a knife, he'll look at it for a second figuring out what it is and what to do with it... and the last thing to go through his mind will be a 124gr JHP.

CharleyVCU1988
09-14-2014, 10:21 PM
This is going to be the ultimate necropost, but coming from someone who is now seriously questioning dual AIWB after just finishing an ECQC class (9-12-14 --> 9-14-14 Mt Pleasant, MI) with Craig, I would like to add my input into the discussion.

Some caveats about my experience

I am someone that has zero brazilian jiu-jitsu training (which is literally the foundation of Craig's classes) and no interval training whatsoever (I tired out pretty quickly during the evolutions). I was unable to use twin guns during the evolution exercises because I did not consider the fact that Craig only had Glock 17 simunition guns, not Glock 19s - and my holsters were designed for Glock 19s.

I had an extremely difficult time defending one gun once my assailant had found it on the first day of evolutions (9-13-14). While I had seen a version of Craig's retention techniques for AIWB before I had never been able to apply it in person, let alone try and figure out how to do it while on my back. I was starting off on the ground as if I had been knocked over by a sucker punch. I was not allowed to try and get up but rather to fend off the assailant while on the ground. I don't think I was allowed to draw while on the ground and open up on the standing assailant. Either way, when my assailant was on top of me on my right side (I am right handed) I didn't have enough strength to turn into my assailant to leg bar her off of me. I was recognizing she had found my gun on my right but I cpuldn't employ retention properly. I managed to get the gun away from her but I stupidly rolled on my stomach to protect the gun and ended up nearly being choked out when she ended up on top of me and the FIST helmet ended up on my neck (I had no idea how to get out of a choke at this time)

The second day (today) of evolutions we were in a car beating the crap out of each other. I don't remember even trying to defend my gun while in the car as there was so much stuff going on (the scenario was that I would get a gun drawn on me - the first instinct was to try and get off the line of fire). I didn't know how to even get out of the seat in such a scenario and establish footing on the door or my opponent, so focused was I on trying to knock him out with punches and also keeping his gun out of my face, and also trying to improvise choking him with the seatbelt.

There was an ECQC alum there who carried a knife in his pocket?/on his belt? during the class, which to me is somewhat akin to dual AIWB (given the fact that he had two weapons on/near his belt line). He had also taken 2 years of jiu-jitsu between his first and the current ECQC class - and he got killed constantly in the first ECQC class. When he did the current class no one managed to grab his gun nor his knife, except for maybe one person when it became a 2 on 1 scenario.

When we were working weapons retention techniques I decided to grab an inert gun and draw it to retention while my assailant tried to grab the other one. The problem is that once you angled away from your assailant in order to use your elbow to wrist-lock him, any retention position you draw to with your opposite hand will have its shots more likely than not miss him, as you will be nearly parallel to him. "Floating the gun" as Craig calls it or simply doing instinctive shooting doesn't help much either as it could put the handgun potentially closer to him where he could grab it.

The only time where I really found dual AIWB to be useful was where I could tie up someone (presumably unarmed) and draw from either side, or if the assault attempt started out not as a grapple attempt but with a gun held to me and I could move off the line of attack for a disarm or barrel redirect, and could draw from either side. However, I couldn't get to practice the disarm attempt during the car evolution (out of breath, plus risking breaking the training partner's finger), and I couldn't practice the disarm at any other point in time during the class.

Me and Craig had a discussion after the class ended and he told me that I was not the first individual to go through his class with a dual AIWB setup, and that most of the ones that did ended up ditching the dual AIWB setup.

I can definitely see why, as an inexperienced ground fighter and grappler, why dual AIWB would be hard to defend in a grappling situation. If you are not like the aforementioned ECQC alumnus with substantial jiu-jitsu training, do not even think about doing dual AIWB.

For situations where it doesn't end up in the dirt (although this scenario was not emphasized that much), perhaps if the assailant was a poor grappler (but you don't have the luxury of knowing that...) then maybe dual AIWB would come in handy. Plus, the dual holsters allow me to wear more form-fitting clothing (like younger folks) as the larger bulge at the front allows the butt of the handgun to be pulled closer to the body. Not so much the case with a lone AIWB holster. Although I could make do with twin mag carriers in the left hand holster's place.

just my thoughts. I will defer to both Craig and Cecil Burch's thoughts on the matter.