View Full Version : Selecting Dot(s) for EDC *and* USPSA
I am not yet in the market for a Dot, but I can see it coming to replace my iron sights.
My questions are related to my particular interests, being every day carry *and* competition. I currently EDC a Glock 48 (non-MOS) and recently bought a 34.5 MOS for USPSA. My budget, per dot, is somewhere in the $300-$400 range. I plan to buy two. I know I'll have to get my G48 slide milled as well.
Insofar as priority goes, I value reliability over optional functionality. I am ok with replacing batteries to maintain dot Operational Availability, but when I draw, I really want to have confidence the dot is going to be there, pretty much all the dang time. I don't value things like being able to "switch" dot sizes or to add additional features to the sight picture, as much as I do a simple sight picture which works (all the time). I also value a robust physical design, which would stand up to normal match and carry use, much like I value the robustness of my Glocks.
With that:
Is it a consideration to chose a "dot system" in this case? (in other words, do I need to pick a Dot from the same maker for both carry and competition). If so, are there any makers which support both standard Glock slides as well as slimlines?
Is my budget achievable / realistic? In regards to my price point, are there any current manufacturers which stand out as being "the obvious" choice, for my situation?
No real urgency in my question; it's more a long term project for '21 and beyond.
SoCalDep
01-25-2021, 01:16 PM
I don't think it's very important to have dots from the same manufacturer for carry vs. competition/performance. I think there are advantages and disadvantages to the various available optics that make different ones better for different things.
My EDC is a Glock 19MOS with a Trijicon RMR (RM09). My duty gun is a G45 with a Holosun 509T. The ACRO would be right there for duty but I have it on one of my training/teaching guns that isn't a Department-approved setup. If I'm trying to burn it down I love my SROs. There is certainly cross-over and personal preference involved, and I'll probably be running an SRO on duty at least on occasion and the Holosun 507C window isn't "that" much smaller than the SRO that it couldn't do a good job on the performance side.
Your budget being in the $300-$400 range is certainly reasonable and only slightly below some of the higher-end options out there. I got my RMRs for around $420 on sale through Primary Arms with one of their 12% on-line coupon codes. I haven't seen one in a while with all the craziness, so one must consider that. The SRO runs closer to $500 from what I've seen, and Holosuns can be found pretty inexpensively on sale. I got my HS407A3 for $169 on sale through Primary Arms and it's the one we dropped four times on concrete during my Department's 10,000 round test. It survived and it's sitting on my desk awaiting the Holosun screws to go on one of my pistols.
So which optic is the "best" for you?
Don't know.
To me it's like saying the Glock is the best gun... Or the M&P or 1911 or whatever. Each optic has advantages and disadvantages and different people may value those things differently. Anyone who tells you what reticle or dot size is "best" should be suspect. It's like a doctor who gives the same diet advice to the male 300lb 5ft 8in type-2 diabetic as the female 105lb 5ft 3in marathon runner. People are different and no one else can tell me how my astigmatism affects how I perceive the dot. Personally I like the smaller dots and shoot them pretty fast but I know others that shoot just as accurately (or more) with bigger dots.
In short, since this is something you're not in a rush to do "now", I'd see if you can borrow or try different dots to see what works best for you. There are a lot of good options out there right now and I think the market is very much in a growth stage... Some great new optics could be released in the mean time.
Up1911Fan
01-25-2021, 02:06 PM
I would do a RMR/RMRCC or a 407/507 and 407K/507k. If interested in a 407K for your 48, let me know.
Bergeron
01-25-2021, 02:14 PM
Separate of the budget, I would tend towards a RMRcc on the 48, and a SRO on the 34.
Considering the budget, I'd also look at the various Holosun offerings. My personal experience is only with RMRs and a SRO.
1911Nut
01-25-2021, 03:24 PM
Separate of the budget, I would tend towards a RMRcc on the 48, and a SRO on the 34.
Considering the budget, I'd also look at the various Holosun offerings. My personal experience is only with RMRs and a SRO.
Yes.
Archer1440
01-25-2021, 03:42 PM
Insofar as priority goes, I value reliability over optional functionality. I am ok with replacing batteries to maintain dot Operational Availability, but when I draw, I really want to have confidence the dot is going to be there, pretty much all the dang time. .
Not to go off-topic from your hardware question, but I would respectfully point out that there is an important software aspect to “having the dot there all the time”, irrespective of the hardware on your slide.
What I can tell you is, that if you really want to carry a dot, I would strongly suggest training with a qualified red dot instructor, which will save you a lot of effort and ammo expended to get to be as competent with the dot as you are with irons.
I learned a lot more about shooting the dot, and made my presentation much more reliable for finding the dot, by spending a few days with Erick Gelhaus, than I did working on my own for three years and ammo counts well into five digits. Now, certainly you might be a much better student or more talented shooter than I am (a low bar to pass indeed!), but I’m comfortable stating that I really believe most people would benefit a lot from competent instruction with the dot, especially starting out in the transition from irons to dot.
I would echo the above poster and if you have the means, take a class with a reputable RDS instructor. Most of them will loan you an RDS gun(or two) for the class if you ask. That'll give you a chance to get time behind some different dots and make some decisions.
From a purely hardware perspective, I don’t think you need to be brand loyal for your needs, but from a logistics perspective (screws/tools/batteries) it could make your life a tad easier.
Given what your stated uses and what your price range is, if including milling, a C&H plate for an MOS gun, and backup irons is being factored into that $300-$400 per RDS, then I would look at the Holosun 407/507 series. You can make adjustments for size, reticle, power source dependent on your particular needs within those models.
I don't think it's very important to have dots from the same manufacturer for carry vs. competition/performance. I think there are advantages and disadvantages to the various available optics that make different ones better for different things.
...
In short, since this is something you're not in a rush to do "now", I'd see if you can borrow or try different dots to see what works best for you. There are a lot of good options out there right now and I think the market is very much in a growth stage... Some great new optics could be released in the mean time.
Great input. Thanks. I hadn't considered it from that perspective.
I would do a RMR/RMRCC or a 407/507 and 407K/507k. If interested in a 407K for your 48, let me know.
Will do, but most likely scenario (If I do get something) "to try" is to get one for the G34, as I don't have to mill the slide. But I still have your contact info. :)
Separate of the budget, I would tend towards a RMRcc on the 48, and a SRO on the 34.
Considering the budget, I'd also look at the various Holosun offerings. My personal experience is only with RMRs and a SRO.
Yes I was thinking I was in Holosun territory. Or Swampfox. But to be honest I don't have a particular inclination one way or another at this point.
Thanks all. I think I'll get to reading threads in the dot forum and focus on making more effective use of Dry Practice with irons at the moment. Appreciate the comments.
RancidSumo
01-25-2021, 04:44 PM
If the budget can be stretched, RMR is within reach. I picked up a RM07 in late December from BDU for $460 shipped. I've now got two and really like them. From what I've seen shooting the dot almost exclusively for ~9 months now, I think I'm completely comfortable with the smaller window (though I admit I was jealous of the large window on my friend's Sig when first starting out and struggling to find the dot). That said, there are many shooters here much better than I am that seem to like the larger windowed optics for competition/etc., so I'm sure there is still something to it.
ETA: Regarding battery swaps, I've only done one so far (battery wasn't dead, just annual changes), but the dot returned to zero after removing/remounting.
I have an RMR06 gen1 on a 19X a Holosun 507c gen 1 on a 19 and just got a 507K for my 48. Now awaiting the 47 slide from Brownells.
I’ve had ZERO issues with any of the dots. The RMR did the blinky thing with whatever crappy battery they sent in the package. Swapped it to Energizer and no issues through 2 battery swaps. Holosun is the same, the dot is just there. Only negative is that the circle dot reticle has a slight cant to it on both the 507c and K. Not enough to annoy me.
Both the Holosun and RMR have held zero fine even after some accidental battering.
The gen2 Holosun have the edge IMO due to not needing to remove them to swap batteries. However that does come with a price of smaller batteries and maybe more swaps. No idea as I have yet to mount the K on a gun.
Also no issues for me at least from using the circle dot on the Holosun and then swapping to the dot on the RMR. I shoot both the same.
Blades
01-25-2021, 06:04 PM
If you are military/leo/veteran Leupold offers a discount. I have a DeltaPoint Pro on my G19.5 MOS. Leupold also offers a lifetime warranty on the DPP, so if you buy a used one, it has a warranty.
FWIW: I recently set up a G19 MOS with a Forward Controls mounting plate and a 3.25 MOA RMR type 2 as my first dip of a toe into MRDS on a handgun. I do not regret my choices at all. I have not put a ton of rounds through it yet (sitting here with a "polar cube" ice treatment on my right shoulder, post SLAP repair surgery a week ago), but I spent a lot of time reading, watching videos, and gleaning info from as many places as I could before I pulled the trigger. I am itching to get healed up, so I can get back to shooting it again ASAP. It really does feel like cheating compared to irons for me.
19 MOS: easy to set up for various optics, price and availability was "just right, just at the right time"
Forward Controls OPF-G, RMR: Steel plate vs other materials gives me more confidence in it's durability. Fits the RMR quite tightly, so the optic cant beat itself (or the screws) loose as easy; another check in the durability column. https://www.forwardcontrolsdesign.com/OPF-G-RMR_p_224.html
3.25 MOA RMR type 2: Great, proven durability. Solid USA made optic, from a USA based company. Good battery life (re-zeroing once a year after a battery change is no big deal IMHO). Resistant to damage (dropping or otherwise). I can always "bloom" the smaller dot brighter to make it appear larger. Smaller dots seem to be the way most people trend after some time with a RDS on a handgun. I don't have any issues picking up the dot in the window.
I went with Ameriglo 429's as BUIS. They are okay, but I would have preferred the rear sight have a serrated back face. They are more like a lower 1/4 co-witness, than lower 1/3rd, but that is fine for me.
I'd suggest watching all the Sage Dynamics videos on youtube, and reading the white paper as well. Spoiler: Aaron likes RMR's, but also finds a lot of the Holosun products to be good. Most everything else he tests seems to not stand up to his abuse (the drop tests hammer almost all of the cheaper optics terribly, it seems).
I personally didn't want to support China when I went optic shopping, otherwise I may have considered a Holosun as a cheaper "1st run" with an MRDS on a pistol. Trijicon was a "known" to me, whereas other sights and companies are less vetted, IMHO. For the extra $100-150 it made sense to me to go with Trijicon. I went with the RMR over the SRO for durability reasons, and I do plan on eventually carrying an RMR'd gun. I believe the smaller "CC" RMR's are comparable to their larger brethren durability and reliability wise. I'd probably go that route for a 48 sized gun.
For sure check out sage dynamics videos.
“Nose to backplate” to find the dot is helpful advice.
I shoot a lot of dots and shoot a lot of different guns with dots.
My competition guns have dots and my carry guns have dots.
Some things you may or may not have considered:
1. If you practice a lot and are at the USPSA “A” level, the dot will be there when you present. Window and dot size become less important when your index is good.
2. If you don’t practice, small windows and small dots quickly become a liability if you need to hunt for them.
3. Be honest with yourself of how much you’re going to practice and pick your window and dot accordingly.
4. The less you want to practice with a dot, the more important good and accurate BUIS become.
5. If you practice, it doesn’t matter what gun and what dot are together. They don’t have to be the same system any more than your competition and carry gun have to be the same system if you’re willing to put in the time. You’re not going to mix up driving your wife’s SUV and your 911 just because they both have steering wheels and doors.
6. The smaller window of the 507k over the RMSc is offset by the 65MOA ring making the effective viewing offset larger. You can see the ring in the corner even if the dot is off the screen so it does help directionality and acquisition in transitions. The 507k and Shield RMSc have functional integrated rear BUIS with OEM height fronts rather than the ridiculously tall front sights needed with an RMRcc. Also the 507k survives the full impact testing.
David S.
01-25-2021, 09:00 PM
I'll recommend that you put a 507c / C&H Plate on your G34 and get really good with it. . . . Then add one a RMRcc, 507k (or whatever the new hotness is by then), once you got it all figured out and decide you like it.
I don't think you need the capabilities of an enclosed emitter.
The SRO makes finding/tracking the dot easier, which is great if you're gaming for the sake of gaming.
If the primary goal of the 34 is a plus-size trainer for a daily carry subcompact, I'd stick with the mid-sized window of the RMR/507c.
The Holosun 507c gives you a slightly taller window and more reticle choices than the Trijicon RMR. Best I can tell, the jury's still out on which one is more reliable for normal concealed carry use. The RMR probably gets the nod for durability, though that durability increase applies more to duty use than concealed carry.
I sold my RMR's for Holosuns. I'm not going back.
(PM member DaBigBR for pricing on Holosuns if that's the way you go. I've bought one or two from him on another forum.)
Cheers,
D
If the primary goal of the 34 is a plus-size trainer for a daily carry subcompact, I'd stick with the mid-sized window of the RMR/507c.
David - It is, yes, exactly correct. I'm currently leaning towards a 507c to get my feet wet (no slide mill needed), then move on to a smaller optic for my G48 (I guess a 507k but not sure). Any reason plate -02 (RMR?) from the Glock plate set that came with my G34 will not work? Or is the C&H plate just better?
Archer1440
01-27-2021, 07:19 PM
For light use the Glock MOS plates will get you by, but you’ll need a shorter set of screws to replace those in the Trijicon package. I wish I could wholeheartedly recommend the CHPWS plates but they have been 50/50 in terms of correct machining on the five I have had experience with (on SIG pistols). In a couple of cases threads/bosses were mangled or nonexistent. Their customer service is good though.
Forward Controls reputedly has good quality and design but I have no personal experience with them.
For heavy use some people have reported issues with the Glock MOS plates, including two friends who have used them with Vortex and Trijicon optics. In both cases the plates cracked after a few thousand rounds. They appear to be cast or MIM material and are probably not the best choice for hard use. A third friend, for whom I mounted a Vortex optic onto a 10MM Glock with a Vortex optic, has had no issues, but is not a high volume shooter.
I wish I could wholeheartedly recommend the CHPWS plates but they have been 50/50 in terms of correct machining on the five I have had experience with (on SIG pistols). In a couple of cases threads/bosses were mangled or nonexistent. Their customer service is good though.
Forward Controls reputedly has good quality and design but I have no personal experience with them.
The part in bold is one reason why I went with the FCD plate... I don't want to bash on CHPWS, as I have no personal experience with them, but I saw enough cases where folks had issues with the CHPWS plates stripping out, the steel FCD plate started making way more sense.
I think proper screws are a huge part of making sure things are mounted right. It doesn't take much excess length in those tiny screws, to leave enough gap, or push the plates up enough to start having issues like plates/dots coming loose, or things getting stripped out. The FCD plate comes with two clearly marked baggies: one for plate to slide mounting, the other for sight to plate mounting. They also include the proper size torx key (note: they suggest installing to some pretty specific inch-pound torque values with a proper low range inch pounds torque wrench, and NOT using the included key for "goodentight" by hand), and a small pouch of Vibratite VC3 thread locker.
One thing that has helped durability of my optics plates (both Glock and CZ) is a thin layer of rubber cement between the slide and the plate. That adhesion has been enough to prevent relying on little screws to handle all the impacts and torture. It helps the screws and reduces shock to the plate.
It’s super simple but works magically from a theoretical and practical application.
It’s also 100% easily reversible anytime.
Clusterfrack
ranger
01-27-2021, 08:24 PM
May I make an alternate suggestion - I would buy one SRO for the G34 and stick with iron sights for CCW. Learn the "dot" on the G34 and later invest in a second dot of you wish on your CCW. You might even carry the G34 and save the smaller pistol for those "hard to conceal" days.
Clusterfrack
01-27-2021, 10:25 PM
One thing that has helped durability of my optics plates (both Glock and CZ) is a thin layer of rubber cement between the slide and the plate. That adhesion has been enough to prevent relying on little screws to handle all the impacts and torture. It helps the screws and reduces shock to the plate.
It’s super simple but works magically from a theoretical and practical application.
It’s also 100% easily reversible anytime.
Clusterfrack
That's a great idea. /Professional mode ON/ Many adhesives are engineered to dissipate energy and inhibit crack propagation, which causes bond failure. Failure in rigid attachment systems like threaded bolts can have similar causes.
What adhesive are you using?
That's a great idea. /Professional mode ON/ Many adhesives are engineered to dissipate energy and inhibit crack propagation, which causes bond failure. Failure in rigid attachment systems like threaded bolts can have similar causes.
What adhesive are you using?
Finding solutions to problems is what I do (at work).
So when I had Shadow 2 OR plate screws loosening up with high volume shooting despite loctite, I came up with this idea and it has worked so extremely well that I wondered why it wasn’t a thing.
I thought you’d appreciate the elegance to it. It just makes more sense than putting all the marbles on two little post screws.
This (https://www.amazon.com/E6000-230022-Viscosity-Industrial-Adhesive/dp/B00178MO58/ref=sr_1_4?crid=WA0LCIAXCT5B&dchild=1&keywords=e6000+glue&qid=1611805726&sprefix=E6000%2Caps%2C173&sr=8-4) is what I’m using currently.
66779
I also use it as a “cap” on screws and things that would vibrate loose otherwise too.
David S.
01-28-2021, 12:28 AM
The factory plates will work, the question is, how long will they work?
As you mentioned, reliability is a major factor in your decision tree.
((To be clear, I'm not a Glock guy. I don't own them and have no first hand knowledge about the MOS system. I have attended RDS specific classes with Scott Jedlinski and Steve Fisher, and kinda - sorta followed the whole drama from the periphery. ))
Here's a couple videos that include descriptions of the problems and a some solutions. As best I can tell, Jedi and Fisher (just to name a couple known instructors)
would echo Aaron Cowan and Buck Holly's diagnosis and recommend any of the FCD or C&H solutions, along with more expensive options like the Agency Arms system.
https://youtu.be/hiFwHExtjWc
https://youtu.be/3Af82CADzeE
https://youtu.be/XTBu2Xy2d0k
Based on the information above, plus anecdotal data from at least a half dozen other firearms instructors, if I ran a Glock MOS, I would personally pay extra and use an aftermarket plate solution. YMMV, and all that.
The factory plates will work, the question is, how long will they work?
As you mentioned, reliability is a major factor in your decision tree.
...
Based on the information above, plus anecdotal data from at least a half dozen other firearms instructors, if I ran a Glock MOS, I would personally pay extra and use an aftermarket plate solution. YMMV, and all that.
Thanks David. That explains why someone might opt to use an aftermarket plate and not the MIM plate that comes with the gun. I really like the look of that C&H polymer V4 plate with the Defender window. Makes a lot of sense. Guess I'll need an inch-lb torque wrench as well, sigh. Thanks again.
https://chpws.com/product/defender-mos-holosun-407c-507c-508t-round-face
David S.
01-28-2021, 09:14 AM
Thanks David. That explains why someone might opt to use an aftermarket plate and not the MIM plate that comes with the gun. I really like the look of that C&H polymer V4 plate with the Defender window. Makes a lot of sense. Guess I'll need an inch-lb torque wrench as well, sigh. Thanks again.
https://chpws.com/product/defender-mos-holosun-407c-507c-508t-round-face
All good. Glad you found it helpful.
I’m inclined to think the V4 Defender is overkill for our context. Not there’s anything wrong with that, but I’d be fine with a standard plate for a gamer/carry gun. As an outsider, it makes a bunch of sense in a MIL/LEO context. Obviously, you do you.
Wheeler Firearms Accurizing Torque Wrench with Inch/Pounds Measurement, Bits and Storage Case for Scope Mounting, Gunsmithing and Maintenance (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012AXR4S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_WZ1DD2NF6MH04TV2TE40)
vcdgrips
01-28-2021, 09:56 AM
Completely outside of my lane. All I know from dots is what I have ready on this forum since Feb 2011.
For the EDC gun-buy quality, cry once, just like you did with you jack stands for the car. If the only thing between a righteous set up using a Trijicon or Aimpoint v. a Holosun was the money, I would spend the money as I am not buying anything from the PRC if I do not have to. I fully acknowledge that Holosun continues to review well by those in the know and seems to exceed the intersection of quality and value by far.
For the game gun-whatever is going to make you more successful. The big window of the SRO seems quite attractive. I am sure there are Holosun etc models with big windows too.
Taking an RDS class to flatten the learning curve is an excellent idea in any season and in the season of .70 per round ammo that you often cannot get, seems like pure platinum to me.
JCN's point re solid mechanics overriding the need for the two dots to be exactly alike makes sense.
JCN's tip to use rubber cement in the mounting mix (to me in my non engineering mind, an expansion of the idea re using the more viscous jelly like vibratite v. liquid locktite) seems brilliant as well.
Let us know what you do and why you did it.
Be safe and well.
DB
Completely outside of my lane. All I know from dots is what I have ready on this forum since Feb 2011.
For the EDC gun-buy quality, cry once, just like you did with you jack stands for the car. If the only thing between a righteous set up using a Trijicon or Aimpoint v. a Holosun was the money, I would spend the money as I am not buying anything from the PRC if I do not have to. I fully acknowledge that Holosun continues to review well by those in the know and seems to exceed the intersection of quality and value by far.
For the game gun-whatever is going to make you more successful. The big window of the SRO seems quite attractive. I am sure there are Holosun etc models with big windows too.
Taking an RDS class to flatten the learning curve is an excellent idea in any season and in the season of .70 per round ammo that you often cannot get, seems like pure platinum to me.
JCN's point re solid mechanics overriding the need for the two dots to be exactly alike makes sense.
JCN's tip to use rubber cement in the mounting mix (to me in my non engineering mind, an expansion of the idea re using the more viscous jelly like vibratite v. liquid locktite) seems brilliant as well.
Let us know what you do and why you did it.
Be safe and well.
DB
I agree with you that an RDS class can definitely help jump start the learning and reduce wasted ammo.
I agree with your other assessments as well.
One point of clarification about my rubber cement utilization is that I actually use a pea-sized blob on the plate itself and smoosh it flat. This way I get a complete press-fit seal from the slide to the plate and no "hot spots" of contact or friction.
Basically even if I removed the screws from the plate, it wouldn't come off without quite a bit of pulling... but is completely easy to clean up.
It makes it easier to deal with the screws as they don't have to be nuclear tight or crazy threadlocked because they're not doing all the work retaining the plate to the slide. It also adds some vibration and shock dampening.
I would suspect it would also help prevent some of the MOS plate stress fractures, but that's just a hypothesis.
Completely outside of my lane. All I know from dots is what I have ready on this forum since Feb 2011.
For the EDC gun-buy quality, cry once, just like you did with you jack stands for the car. If the only thing between a righteous set up using a Trijicon or Aimpoint v. a Holosun was the money, I would spend the money as I am not buying anything from the PRC if I do not have to. I fully acknowledge that Holosun continues to review well by those in the know and seems to exceed the intersection of quality and value by far.
For the game gun-whatever is going to make you more successful. The big window of the SRO seems quite attractive. I am sure there are Holosun etc models with big windows too.
Taking an RDS class to flatten the learning curve is an excellent idea in any season and in the season of .70 per round ammo that you often cannot get, seems like pure platinum to me.
JCN's point re solid mechanics overriding the need for the two dots to be exactly alike makes sense.
JCN's tip to use rubber cement in the mounting mix (to me in my non engineering mind, an expansion of the idea re using the more viscous jelly like vibratite v. liquid locktite) seems brilliant as well.
Let us know what you do and why you did it.
Be safe and well.
DB
The Holosun decision is not so easy. Holosun has done more innovating in pistol red dot optics than all the other companies combined. Holosun started off as a price point choice, now they are a better features choice.
Magsz
01-28-2021, 09:38 PM
The Holosun decision is not so easy. Holosun has done more innovating in pistol red dot optics than all the other companies combined. Holosun started off as a price point choice, now they are a better features choice.
Price point, features, durability, customer service etc. They're all top notch, potentially industry leading.
Price point, features, durability, customer service etc. They're all top notch, potentially industry leading.
It’s like they listened to what we wanted and actually delivered it!
It’s crazy when that happens. :D
Default.mp3
01-28-2021, 11:22 PM
I'll offer the dubious perspective that an RDS specific class it not needed; I say dubious, because I have never taken a dot-specific pistol class, but I've never read any AARs or talked to anyone that said anything taught in a dot specific class that gave me a lightbulb moment. Instead, I'd argue that RDS on pistols are very much just another sighting system, and the basics remain exactly the same; there might be a few nuances here and there, but those are like 15 minutes worth of material at best, not a two day specific course, and nothing that would make a massive difference in performance. One of the first folks to offer RDS pistol classes, Steve Fisher, has stated more than once that he continues to put on such classes simply because there is a demand, and he needs to make a living, and that he personally also thinks that RDS specific pistol classes are dumb.
Similarly, someone made a post about this in a Facebook group:
Who offers red dot pistol instructor courses on the east coast, specifically north East area. My department is slowly making the move to RDS handguns and we need a instructor level course.
Bill Blowers's response was:
https://i.imgur.com/uq8OvUJ.png
Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/929912630445469/permalink/2807842235985823/?comment_id=2807995652637148
IMO, the most important part of the transition to the RDS is simply finding the dot on the draw, and that is nothing more than having a consistent draw. Not easy, but certainly simple, and can be practiced dry, and does not change when going from iron sights to RDS.
NoTacTravis
01-29-2021, 12:44 AM
As someone who is similarly thinking of making the move from a G19 to a G34 carry optics train/compete and G48 RDS carry solution I am following this thread with interest.
Read the thread twice, I didn't see mention of MOA size? It seems I've been hearing more podcasters talk about moving from the 6 MOA dot to a 3 MOA dot and just shooting the streak, then cranking up to the brightness to appear bigger if needed. Is that the sense here as well or is the rabbit hole leading me too far from the beaten path?
Time to start price checking SRO's I guess...
*edit* $499 all over the place. Gulp. Ummm.... maybe not for this poor.
The “price of admission” to shooting a dot is reliably acquiring the dot. Intermediate is understanding the dot doesn’t need to stop, just stay within the scoring area. Advanced is actually shooting looking at the target and not the dot.
I'll offer the dubious perspective that an RDS specific class it not needed; I say dubious, because I have never taken a dot-specific pistol class, but I've never read any AARs or talked to anyone that said anything taught in a dot specific class that gave me a lightbulb moment. Instead, I'd argue that RDS on pistols are very much just another sighting system, and the basics remain exactly the same; there might be a few nuances here and there, but those are like 15 minutes worth of material at best, not a two day specific course, and nothing that would make a massive difference in performance. One of the first folks to offer RDS pistol classes, Steve Fisher, has stated more than once that he continues to put on such classes simply because there is a demand, and he needs to make a living, and that he personally also thinks that RDS specific pistol classes are dumb.
Similarly, someone made a post about this in a Facebook group:
IMO, the most important part of the transition to the RDS is simply finding the dot on the draw, and that is nothing more than having a consistent draw. Not easy, but certainly simple, and can be practiced dry, and does not change when going from iron sights to RDS.
I’m also a self-taught through practice dot shooter.
But “consistent draw” isn’t quite correct and it might change from irons to RDS.
if someone has a consistent but rising drawstroke with irons, they can be very fast and accurate tracking the irons as they come up and on target.
But with a dot, you want to pick it up as early as you can on the draw so it may become a little more of a horizontal press out towards the last 1/3 of the stroke as opposed to a very functional iron draw that comes up later.
I recently worked with a friend who is an accomplished iron shooter but never got on with dots. He had bought and sold many dot guns after dabbling with them. I mailed him a dot slide and gave him a series of exercises with par times for dry and live fire. It worked great for him.
So sometimes even talking about the different types of dot sight pictures (streak, bounce or hover) can help a shooter cut off frustration and lead in time.
As someone who is similarly thinking of making the move from a G19 to a G34 carry optics train/compete and G48 RDS carry solution I am following this thread with interest.
Read the thread twice, I didn't see mention of MOA size? It seems I've been hearing more podcasters talk about moving from the 6 MOA dot to a 3 MOA dot and just shooting the streak, then cranking up to the brightness to appear bigger if needed. Is that the sense here as well or is the rabbit hole leading me too far from the beaten path?
Time to start price checking SRO's I guess...
*edit* $499 all over the place. Gulp. Ummm.... maybe not for this poor.
One other thing to keep in mind from these podcasts that I think is under appreciated...
Is that these guys are essentially pro-level and their equipment choices might not be appropriate for people at different skill levels.
The equipment a professional golfer uses with regards to club shaft flex and loft... isn’t and shouldn’t be the same as someone who is a 20 handicapper.
So YMMV.
Personally, I started off with the huge 7.5 MOA DPP that seems more like a 30 MOA blob and then moved to something smaller when I was accurate enough to make headshots and I wanted more feedback. Right now I’m happy with 5-6 MOA but could see smaller being just fine in the future. I think Max Michel (CO champ) was running the larger size dot on his Romeo3Max, IIRC.
David S.
01-29-2021, 09:25 AM
I'll offer the dubious perspective that an RDS specific class it not needed.......
Having attended RDS specific classes with both Fisher and Jedi, I agree. As you seek out marksmanship training, I do think there's value in biasing your training choices to instructors with recent, extensive RDS experience, but I'm not sure a RDS specific class is strictly necessary. If anything, a 4 hour RDS familiarization clinic is plenty to get you started.
Shooting the dot requires more refinement than irons: the dot leaves the window on left and right side about same time my front BUIS is touching the rear. (I do run a fairly narrow front sight post so my light bars are relatively wide.) Elevation is similar. The dot leaves the window about when the front sight is only about half way out of the notch vertically. There is very little margin for error. Much of RDS specific nature of RDS classes is simply developing the necessary precision during the draw and during recoil.
Magsz
01-29-2021, 01:15 PM
Having attended RDS specific classes with both Fisher and Jedi, I agree. As you seek out marksmanship training, I do think there's value in biasing your training choices to instructors with recent, extensive RDS experience, but I'm not sure a RDS specific class is strictly necessary. If anything, a 4 hour RDS familiarization clinic is plenty to get you started.
Shooting the dot requires more refinement than irons: the dot leaves the window on left and right side about same time my front BUIS is touching the rear. (I do run a fairly narrow front sight post so my light bars are relatively wide.) Elevation is similar. The dot leaves the window about when the front sight is only about half way out of the notch vertically. There is very little margin for error. Much of RDS specific nature of RDS classes is simply developing the necessary precision during the draw and during recoil.
Marksmanship fundamentals are the same across the board whether you are shooting a dot or shooting irons. The sight picture element is one where there could be conversation but its not THAT much different.
What IS different is providing ways in which students with prior experience can access drills and techniques in order to change how they're focusing on the application. The "proper" way to shoot a dot is to look at the target, not your sights so to speak. There are a sequence of drills, including occluded eye drills that will help give the student an "ah ha" moment during his transition phase. Realistically, with an educated shooter, all of this can be accomplished with time behind the gun, much like everything with shooting.
The other area where RDS specific classes shine is preparing the student for worst possible outcomes. Dot failure, water on the lens, mud on the lens etc. I've been shooting for a while and i've never really seen instructors teaching a "your iron sights have mud on them, what do you do!" kind of lesson block. Sure, instinctive, point shooting, indexing off of the slide shooting is a technique that is and has been taught but i've never seen real emphasis on this versus all of the potential shit that CAN go wrong with a red dot.
Ultimately, I think that quality instructors offering RDS classes is a boon to the industry and really doesn't take away from anything. I just think that some instructors are better than others and that the student has to be realistic in what they're hoping to get out of the class. An RDS specific class is not going to turn you into a master class shooter if you're a low C class shit show. That statement is applicable across the board regardless of class intent.
SoCalDep
01-29-2021, 01:31 PM
Having attended red dot classes from multiple instructors, and worked quite a bit with instruction and use of a pistol optic I will agree that a red dot class isn't needed.
I disagree with everything else said in the attached facebook group and some of these posts.
A red dot class isn't "needed". Firearm training in general isn't "needed". There are top level competitors out there who have never taken a formal training class.
That said, I'm disappointed in the content of that facebook group content and I feel that without the context of why one is using a dot on a pistol making statements like training isn't "needed" is misguided at best.
Of course the biggest issue is finding the dot (from the draw, ready positions, strong and support hand, after reloads and malfunction clearances, from different positions, in different lighting conditions, against moving and multiple targets, and while stressed and distracted)... but as Rob Leatham has said on other subjects it might be simple, but not easy. Having an instructor with the ability to monitor performance, diagnose problems, and guide improvement is a big deal. Scott Jedlinski is phenomenal at this.
One of the comments in that facebook group involved the question as to why a law enforcement agency would want red-dot specific instructor training and the suggestion that any instructor should be able to teach a dot simply because they are a good instructor. I work with a lot of instructors and interact with instructors from multiple local, state, and federal agencies. I've worked hard to understand and maximize my performance with a dot and develop the ability to help other people maximize their performance. It did not come easy or fast. It didn't come easy or fast for those I've worked with or seen. I've worked for a large law enforcement agency for almost two decades and as a firearm instructor for over half my career. I've conducted test and evaluation of new equipment, revised curriculum, and developed new curriculum. I've stood in front of department executives, elected politicians, and civilian oversight groups to propose, defend and explain what we teach and the equipment we use. I know exactly why the facebook group poster's department wants a dot-specific instructor class and they aren't dumb to require it. One fuckup by one person that can't be explained to a satisfactory level by the department "experts" and a whole program can go away. We can all bitch about how wrong that is but it doesn't solve it, fix it, or prevent it. There's a lot that goes into law enforcement training and much of it requires knowledge. We can get that through experience but it's a rough road. Training has a tendency to make that road smoother and our travel faster. I'm curious how those well known instructors don't understand that.
I already tend to be too wordy, so I won't go into the additional myriad of things one should cover in a pistol optic class that are distinct and separate skills from iron sight shooting, but I'm sure we'll get there soon. That said, there's plenty of material that should be presented in order to ensure the person using the optic understands best practices, what can go wrong, how to fix and adapt to that - and how to prevent it from going wrong in the first place- and how to practice to continue to develop and maintain their skillset and knowledge gained during the actual instruction.
The way things are going, I am thinking that all pistol classes should be red dots specific, and the specialty class should be on iron sights. :p
Nephrology
01-29-2021, 05:23 PM
The way things are going, I am thinking that all pistol classes should be red dots specific, and the specialty class should be on iron sights. :p
Send me a few of your ACROs and I'd be inclined to agree :cool:
ranger
01-29-2021, 05:32 PM
The way things are going, I am thinking that all pistol classes should be red dots specific, and the specialty class should be on iron sights. :p
The Army started running into this as Optics started rolling out. At some point, Optics become the primary and Iron Sights the secondary but there is a technical and cultural transition.
Send me a few of your ACROs and I'd be inclined to agree :cool:
I would but I’m not sure a struggling intern could afford the battery bill?
Nephrology
01-29-2021, 07:25 PM
I would but I’m not sure a struggling intern could afford the battery bill?
There must be grants for this purpose, I am certain
There must be grants for this purpose, I am certain
Read the fine print, the grants only cover 2032 batteries.
LOKNLOD Ref your other thread on Glock MOS optics’s etc, I’m getting great advice here for my G34 MOS.
Nephrology
01-29-2021, 07:39 PM
Read the fine print, the grants only cover 2032 batteries.
Well hey Aimpoint might have a pistol optic that takes 2032s by the time I graduate!
David S.
01-29-2021, 11:44 PM
The other area where RDS specific classes shine is preparing the student for worst possible outcomes. Dot failure, water on the lens, mud on the lens etc. I've been shooting for a while and i've never really seen instructors teaching a "your iron sights have mud on them, what do you do!" kind of lesson block. Sure, instinctive, point shooting, indexing off of the slide shooting is a technique that is and has been taught but i've never seen real emphasis on this versus all of the potential shit that CAN go wrong with a red dot.
In my RDS specific training experience, managing dot failure, obstructed windows, one handed shooting and off-axis shooting were touched on very briefly. It was a box to check, then right back to the "good stuff." I'd be surprised if we spent 150 rounds between the three classes working on all of it.
YMMV, and all that.
I'm not intended as a dig on the instructors as I'd enthusiastically train with them again.
Magsz
01-29-2021, 11:59 PM
In my RDS specific training experience, managing dot failure, obstructed windows, one handed shooting and off-axis shooting were touched on very briefly. It was a box to check, then right back to the "good stuff." I'd be surprised if we spent 150 rounds between the three classes working on all of it.
YMMV, and all that.
I'm not intended as a dig on the instructors as I'd enthusiastically train with them again.
Interesting. My experience with Centrifuge training differs. Granted, it was a specific RDS instructors class so that may have something to do with it.
In my RDS specific training experience, managing dot failure, obstructed windows, one handed shooting and off-axis shooting were touched on very briefly.
Sounds like a regular club USPSA match.
ranger
01-30-2021, 11:27 AM
Tom Givens new 20 shot drill touches on a lot of opportunities to practice the basics. Buddy and I ran that drill multiple times recently - I ran it with my M&P 5 inch with SRO then with my SA 1911 Operator. Gave instant comparison of dot vs iron sites and light striker pistol vs big heavy 1911. Dots may not be an advantage at 10 yards in vs iron sights.
SoCalDep
01-30-2021, 11:54 AM
Dots may not be an advantage at 10 yards in vs iron sights.
Since we’re here, let’s discuss.
Our first requirement is to define the “advantage”. Are we talking about speed? Accuracy?, both and if so how much of each? Are we talking about target shooting or personal defense/law enforcement/military use? Do we need to see and identify threats, manage people who may change position and/or behavior? Are we working in a single controlled and consistent lighting and positional environment or is it dark or changing lighting - with us and others moving?
How much training and practice have we had with each technique (dot v irons), and what technique have we been using most recently? It’s quite common for someone to shoot irons for decades, try a dot for an hour and declare it “slower”.
Lastly... if we’re talking about shooting targets and not dealing with people, I’m confused as to why, if dot’s aren’t an advantage within 10 yards, USPSA and Steel Challenge have an open division with all those close targets and why IDPA had to reduce the classifier times for the 5x5 with optics since it’s shot at 10 yards.
I will admit though, despite my foot-stomping diatribe above, that I was talking with Mike Pannone recently and he made a great point, which I will paraphrase and probably butcher. Iron sights allow us to be more sloppy in the presentation. I agree and for newer dot shooters who haven’t developed consistency in presentation it does give a speed advantage up close. That’s not a drawback of the dot but evidence of the learning curve.
But according to experts we don’t need dot specific training so I guess we all just know this... or something.
ranger
01-30-2021, 12:15 PM
Did not mean to upset anyone. I have been shooting red dots on pistols since mid 1980s when I was active USPSA/IPSC and Outlaw Steel Shooter. I remember when Barnhart won with a dot and the stampede started. I am a hobbyist shooter, retired military pistol toter (1911-M9), and CCW. I am not a professional shooter, instructor, etc. I took a break from Open guns and dots and moved to Production style pistols during the GWOT.
For general range use, competition, and applications by trained civilians, LE, and Military - dots rule.
I will say it and take the beating - your average shooter and specifically CCW users PROBABLY will not benefit from RDS at typical engagement ranges (say 10 yards in) unless they have vision issues. I am not sure if putting RDS on a small CCW pistol is a great return on investment.
I remember well the angst and arguments during the early days of USPSA reference the move to optics and specifically whether dots slowed you down on close engagements vs the value at longer engagements. Dots quickly won in the hands of practicioners who put a lot of rounds down range.
This is PF, the members either put a lot of rounds down range or act like they do - that is a small portion of the market.
SoCalDep
01-30-2021, 12:27 PM
I should have clarified - my rant wasn’t meant to be towards you... your 10 yard statement just inspired me.
That said, I think the dot is an advantage for more than just “shooting”. The ability to maintain a single focal plane is a big deal even within 10 yards and I think that’s huge even for the average shooter. At the same time, I think the practical side of dot use (vs competition which has a more established history) is still new enough that we don’t have the answers yet as to what’s easier for a brand-new shooter/gun carrier to learn to do in a fight.
Most instructors are getting motivated and at least somewhat experienced students (with some exceptions) and like you mentioned, dedicated dot users for defense (ccw and law enforcement or military) are very much still in the minority.
Makes for fun times.
Dots may not be an advantage at 10 yards in vs iron sights.
I think a fairer statement might be that dots are not an advantage at distances where you can use gross aiming from just pointing the slide. Where you need to align sights, isn’t a single point aiming system faster, especially for those with imperfect and mature vision?
It is interesting how things change — my recollection is a few years back, Mike P didn’t allow use of a red dot on his pistol test because he thought it was gamey and not practical?
ranger
01-30-2021, 12:35 PM
I was shooting Aimpoints for several years on Open pistols in competition before the Army began issuing optics on ARs (M16-M4). I remember when the first batch of Aimpoints showed up for my Infantry BN and I had to teach the first classes to my NCOs on what the optic was and how it was mounted, zero'd, etc. For years, we had the Aimpoints but Soldiers were not allowed to shoot them in annual qualification so as to not lose the iron sight skills. Kind of like using map and compass with GPS tech available.
One day iron sight pistols will be cool and sell at an inflated price - kind of like revolvers now.
Archer1440
01-30-2021, 02:11 PM
Personally I have observed a situation where some of my associates who adopted (small) red dots on their (small) carry pistols but who have not put much effort into improving their skills are arguably impaired by the presence of the dot. One in particular has taken to carrying a P365XL with the SIG plastic dot, and is at least a full second slower in engaging from the holster on the very rare occasions he actually practices with the silly thing.
He would literally be better off with just irons at his present skill level. And with the current ammo situation, he’s well equipped with excuses for not working on it- not that he worked much at it when ammo was cheap.
That’s uncomfortably common, in my personal experience. It’s hard to fix stubborn.
The dot can be a great tool, but it comes with a number of requirements with respect to time and effort over and above ordinary proficiency, and good instruction can definitely shorten the path to working on the “right things”.
Magsz
01-30-2021, 03:33 PM
Personally I have observed a situation where some of my associates who adopted (small) red dots on their (small) carry pistols but who have not put much effort into improving their skills are arguably impaired by the presence of the dot. One in particular has taken to carrying a P365XL with the SIG plastic dot, and is at least a full second slower in engaging from the holster on the very rare occasions he actually practices with the silly thing.
He would literally be better off with just irons at his present skill level. And with the current ammo situation, he’s well equipped with excuses for not working on it- not that he worked much at it when ammo was cheap.
That’s uncomfortably common, in my personal experience. It’s hard to fix stubborn.
The dot can be a great tool, but it comes with a number of requirements with respect to time and effort over and above ordinary proficiency, and good instruction can definitely shorten the path to working on the “right things”.
That's not a dot problem. That's a your buddy is letting his ego drive his car.
He would equally suck with Iron sights. What standard are you using to measure the "full second slower" comment? Just because you find the sight, doesn't mean that the hit is going to be where it needs to be. The same can be said for the red dot and I find this to be an equal detriment in terms of speed.
With my students, yes, it appears as though they find the irons faster as their shot breaks sooner and you're not witnessing the same circle eight pattern of movement as they attempt to find the dot but the reality is, the results on the target are equally bad. A bad sight picture with a bad hit is no better than no sight picture with a dot. When you have a student that actively listens and is attempting to understand concepts, watching a red dot track is incredibly informative to them. Most people see a dot dip during a flinch far easier than they do irons since Irons are often lost in the recoil cycle with new shooters.
When I first mounted a dot on a gun back in 2011, it was a T1 in a Unity Atom Slide (I think it was 2011). I let my ego drive and spent a long time harping on why the concept was crap. To a certain extent, I maintain that in 2011, the concept was crap as people were having all kinds of issues with dots on guns. I maintained that it was not for prime time and that we had a long way to go before this was ready for the mainstream, much to the disagreement of other people. I didn't discount it completely but I really did believe that people were putting way too much confidence in it at the time. There is a post somewhere on this forum where I absolutely trash the concept, or maybe its on another forum, I cant really recall.
Fast forward to 2021 and I find a hard time justifying any downsides to dots besides inclement weather and the remote chance of dot failure. I cannot find a single instance in my performance where there is any detriment, period. All this talk about how the "gross" nature of iron sights allows you to be faster up close makes zero sense to me considering in the competition world, the majority of users are using an index based firing solution out to whatever distance their skill set allows. With a threat based focus with irons, the issue is moot when speaking transitionally to a red dot. The red dot is using the same threat based focus as that iron sight technique and you're STILL just indexing. Either your skill set is there or its not.
Good discussion guys, I appreciate the shared experiences.
Clusterfrack
01-30-2021, 03:58 PM
I think a fairer statement might be that dots are not an advantage at distances where you can use gross aiming from just pointing the slide. Where you need to align sights, isn’t a single point aiming system faster, especially for those with imperfect and mature vision?
All else equal, I agree. However, is the dot advantage significant? Does it outweigh its disadvantages? Of course that depends on the individual. Each of us hopefully makes an objective decision about defensive firearms based on costs and benefits. Currently I am satisfied with iron sights on my carry guns. Two people I know well, and respect highly, carry guns with RDS, and I agree with their decision to do so.
All else equal, I agree. However, is the dot advantage significant? Does it outweigh its disadvantages? Of course that depends on the individual. Each of us hopefully makes an objective decision about defensive firearms based on costs and benefits. Currently I am satisfied with iron sights on my carry guns. Two people I know well, and respect highly, carry guns with RDS, and I agree with their decision to do so.
For high volume shooters, I think it depends on what you main gun is. If my game gun was iron sights, I would carry irons, and vice versa. Since I shoot and or dry fire with a dot every day, iron sights on the pistol is practically an abnormal situation for me, so I gladly carry a dot even with the drawbacks associated with a dot. Pick your poison.
Clusterfrack
01-30-2021, 04:15 PM
For high volume shooters, I think it depends on what you main gun is. If my game gun was iron sights, I would carry irons, and vice versa. Since I shoot and or dry fire with a dot every day, iron sights on the pistol is practically an abnormal situation for me, so I gladly carry a dot even with the drawbacks associated with a dot. Pick your poison.
Well said. This makes sense. A few more things go into my equation in addition to what I compete and primarily practice with. Some guns don't easily lend themselves to RDS. E.g. I carried an LCR on our neighborhood hike just now. An RDS and/or a WML add size and weight, and I am not a huge dude. I can feel the difference between my P-07s with and without the TLR-8, and more often carry the one without it because of that. I'd rather carry a G19 or P-07 size gun with no accessories than a p365 or G43 size gun with a RDS.
Plus I'm a stubborn fucker--not an early adopter.
Magsz
01-30-2021, 04:51 PM
Well said. This makes sense. A few more things go into my equation in addition to what I compete and primarily practice with. Some guns don't easily lend themselves to RDS. E.g. I carried an LCR on our neighborhood hike just now. An RDS and/or a WML add size and weight, and I am not a huge dude. I can feel the difference between my P-07s with and without the TLR-8, and more often carry the one without it because of that. I'd rather carry a G19 or P-07 size gun with no accessories than a p365 or G43 size gun with a RDS.
Plus I'm a stubborn fucker--not an early adopter.
I carry an iron sighted pistol on duty.
I only train on my own time with dot guns. I have had zero practical loss of performance going back to my iron sighted guns. I'm holding out hope that my Agency will be moving towards dots within the next two years.
At this juncture, I can definitely see how stubborn you are. You're not even close to being an early adopter lol. You're about ten to twelve years behind the curve. :P
Clusterfrack
01-30-2021, 05:03 PM
I got this in 2014, and carried it for a year.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210130/f0b250a90039668ef6a4e41b1dce9ea9.jpg
Well said. This makes sense. A few more things go into my equation in addition to what I compete and primarily practice with. Some guns don't easily lend themselves to RDS. E.g. I carried an LCR on our neighborhood hike just now. An RDS and/or a WML add size and weight, and I am not a huge dude. I can feel the difference between my P-07s with and without the TLR-8, and more often carry the one without it because of that. I'd rather carry a G19 or P-07 size gun with no accessories than a p365 or G43 size gun with a RDS.
Plus I'm a stubborn fucker--not an early adopter.
A dot gun doesn’t feel heavy or bulky to me, it feels comforting!
I'll offer the dubious perspective that an RDS specific class it not needed...
By and large, the RDS classes are given by people who are not tipping the scale of being something special in regards to RDS. Majority are self taught just like most of us, have not used RDS in anything other than classes, whether given or taken, or maybe matches. Again, just like most of us. I go to classes either for technical skills or to listen to been-done-used this-kit-for-real stuff. The latter crowd, in PMO, context barely, if at all exists. The former gets smaller and smaller as one's skills get higher. I think that when instructor crowd changes from Ms/paper GMs and old stock tactical peeps to champs/contenders and contemporary pro crowd that actually employed the PMOs, that might change the content of and therefore attitudes to the classes.
66897
Stopped by a local gun shop today, just to see what they had, you know, not that I was going to buy anything, of course. Oh no. Not me. Going to keep doing my research, and not act rashly.
Nope. Nope. Nope.
Sure Rich.
66898
Picked up a Holosun HS 507c-x2 for my Glock 34 MOS.
I just ordered a C&H V4 Defender adapter plate, as well as a Wheeler Torque wrench. I installed it for test purposes, using the Glock MOS plate, just snugged down basically. (I can see the OEM plate is not exactly, uh, optically flat, but still, it works enough to mount the optic.)
Anyway, using the Glock plate let me verify the dot / circle thngy actually works. I just plan to dry practice with it until the permanent plate gets here. I was going to insert my laser boresighter, to see where the barrel lined up with the sight, but unfortunately one of my LR41 button cells fell apart on me, so I'll need to pick up some batteries at ACE before I try that.
Very cool thing. I showed it to my wife, who looked through it and said "well geez how can you miss" to which I said "eggsactly." :)
https://media2.giphy.com/media/l0MYGb1LuZ3n7dRnO/giphy.gif
This inspires me to dryfire my setup lefty (wronghanded for me) tomorrow after I get kids off to school...
David S.
02-01-2021, 11:44 AM
Duracells FTW.
Congratulations.
Just wanted to add this video by Hilton Yam of 10-8 Performance comparing and contrasting the C&H V4 MIL/LEO plate with the Glock OEM plate, pointing out several key discriminators of why you’d want to use an aftermarket plate instead of the OEM.
https://youtu.be/0OoPGIUhCXs
Default.mp3
02-01-2021, 10:41 PM
Speaking of CHPWS, this thread might be of interest for those considering buying a product from them: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/chpws-rmr-plates-are-junk-and-their-customer-service-is-just-as-bad.7029694/
I've got no dog in the fight, since they do not make any product that I would be able to use, but it's certainly not a good look.
David S.
02-01-2021, 11:14 PM
^^^^^^^^^
Ouch.
Magsz
02-02-2021, 02:11 AM
^^^^^^^^^
Ouch.
I lost interest at the end of page 1.
Buck has an interesting personality and I at times find him to be a little bit abrasive.
Having said that, the OP was/is a toolbag.
C&H makes good products. Do they put out a lemon? Yeah, everyone does. If C&H rubs you the wrong way, go with a FCD's plate instead.
SoCalDep
02-02-2021, 03:47 AM
RJ - Well done. We’re interested to hear your experience and if you run into problems there’s a bunch of guys with good experience to help you out and point you in the right direction.
As for CHPWS... I see both sides. I’ve had some less-than-reliable responses to inquiries and emails, but I’ve also ordered two mounts and several parts kits with no issues. I was gifted an RMR mount which I used when testing an optic for my department, and I was very impressed with its performance. I had a screw (optic to plate) torsion shear from one of the parts kits while trying to install an optic (I was using a good Vortex torque wrench set at 10in/lbs) and ended up mounting it with the MOS plate and the screws I purchased from McMaster-Carr. With that, I know CHPWS sources their screws and doesn’t buy junk. Poop happens and I’d buy from them again.
I also have a Forward Controls Design OPF-G plate on my carry G19MOS and I’m really happy with that so either way you go you’re likely to get a benefit over the MOS.
A reciprocating slide is hard on optics, screws and mounting plates, so I am not surprised when there are problems.
David S.
02-02-2021, 07:58 AM
I lost interest at the end of page 1.
Buck has an interesting personality and I at times find him to be a little bit abrasive.
Having said that, the OP was/is a toolbag.
C&H makes good products. Do they put out a lemon? Yeah, everyone does. If C&H rubs you the wrong way, go with a FCD's plate instead.
I skimmed through the whole thing. They identified several other "horror stories" and comms between the two parties seemed to go down hill a bit. That's about it. Lot's of he-said-she-said internet drama. yada yada yada.
If the product fits properly upon initial inspection, it seems you're good to go. Chances are very high that it will work well. If it doesn't, meh, spend the $5 and return it before you start grinding on it.
BobLoblaw
02-02-2021, 09:30 AM
That machine work was straight up shameful. Buck should've bent over backwards to get that plate back. I was getting ready to send them my slide too..
Quantrill
02-02-2021, 12:55 PM
Reading all of the plate conversation here makes me glad I got my slide milled. When you account for the extra cost of an optics ready gun vs iron sights gun, that savings can be applied to milling.
I’m stuck with a RMR footprint but that still gives me plenty of options
Reading all of the plate conversation here makes me glad I got my slide milled. When you account for the extra cost of an optics ready gun vs iron sights gun, that savings can be applied to milling.
I’m stuck with a RMR footprint but that still gives me plenty of options
In my case I wanted a Gen 5 Glock 34 because: reasons, so left me little choice.
Who did you use for the milling? I have a G48 non-MOS I'm happy with, but I'd have to decide whether to flip it for a G48 MOS with my next GSSF coupon ($444), or mill the one I have.
Quantrill
02-02-2021, 03:34 PM
I used L&M for 2 M&P slides and I’ve been happy. He does request you send in your optic. I have changed RMR’s since milling so I don’t know if the size variations in optics is that great. My only nit pick is that Mark uses bigger screws than most and I’m not finding torx head replacement screws. I’d like to get away from hex head.
I used Battlewerks (sp) on a lone wolf Glock slide and it seems ok but it’s low round count.
The thing I’ve noticed about milling is that everyone recommends the place they used.
There are some established shops that have a long history of good work.
David S.
02-02-2021, 06:29 PM
Technology is moving fairly quickly. If I had the option for MOS in my preferred gun, I’d choose it over direct mill.
That calculus might change if I was taking it to a war zone.
medmo
02-03-2021, 12:48 AM
I was shooting Aimpoints for several years on Open pistols in competition before the Army began issuing optics on ARs (M16-M4). I remember when the first batch of Aimpoints showed up for my Infantry BN and I had to teach the first classes to my NCOs on what the optic was and how it was mounted, zero'd, etc. For years, we had the Aimpoints but Soldiers were not allowed to shoot them in annual qualification so as to not lose the iron sight skills. Kind of like using map and compass with GPS tech available.
One day iron sight pistols will be cool and sell at an inflated price - kind of like revolvers now.
OO-Freakin-Rah! said the Marine to the Soldier who actually capitalized Soldier. Once a Marine, always a Marine. Soldier for Life.
Sorry for the micro thread hi-jack.
As you were, carry on.
I also use it as a “cap” on screws and things that would vibrate loose otherwise too.
Finally getting on the optics bandwagon and saw your post about the rubber cement. I got my slide direct milled, so the tip of joining the slide to mounting plate isn't relevant, but the point about "capping" the screws is. Do you normally use this in place of loctite on the screws, or are you doing this in addition to the loctite?
Finally getting on the optics bandwagon and saw your post about the rubber cement. I got my slide direct milled, so the tip of joining the slide to mounting plate isn't relevant, but the point about "capping" the screws is. Do you normally use this in place of loctite on the screws, or are you doing this in addition to the loctite?
I have done it a couple different ways.
I usually use just a little bit of blue loctite on the tip of the threads, but that’s usually not enough by itself under high volume shooting. But it’s small enough that I don’t have to struggle or use heat to get it off.
In addition to the blue loctite, I will either use a small blob on a toothpick on the underside of the screw head where it sits on the optic to resist vibration. If I do that, I’ll use a sharpie and witness mark the top so I know if it’s rotating.
Otherwise I put a little blob on top of the screw if it’s recessed or a little more that hangs over.
The goal is basically to prevent free rotation of the screw if the loctite starts to give, but easy enough to rub off and remove if desired.
Some optics manufacturers recommend blue loctite mating the screw head to the optic but that usually winds up being a PITA to get off later.
NoTacTravis
02-03-2021, 12:21 PM
It might be the shade tree mechanic in me but for different reasons I’ve see some car guys put RTV on the threads of the screws place of loctite. Any thoughts about using that grey stuff the same way here?
Clusterfrack
02-03-2021, 12:34 PM
It might be the shade tree mechanic in me but for different reasons I’ve see some car guys put RTV on the threads of the screws place of loctite. Any thoughts about using that grey stuff the same way here?
RTV silicone has very poor shear strength. I would not rely on that for this use. Vibratite would be a better choice.
Actually this might be a good time to ask this question: What do ya'll use to torque stripe the screws for an optic?
Paint?
https://www.mcmaster.com/torque-striping-paint/
Nail polish? :)
67015
JM Campbell
02-03-2021, 12:45 PM
Actually this might be a good time to ask this question: What do ya'll use to torque stripe the screws for an optic?
Paint?
https://www.mcmaster.com/torque-striping-paint/
Nail polish? :)
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Sharpie brand oil based paint pen in your favorite color. I use hiviz orange.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sharpie brand oil based paint pen in your favorite color. I use hiviz orange.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Totally agree. I have a pack of silver sharpies that I use for labeling holsters that work great on black optic screws.
Normal sharpie for silver screws.
NoTacTravis
02-03-2021, 01:53 PM
RTV silicone has very poor shear strength. I would not rely on that for this use. Vibratite would be a better choice.
Make sense. Does the same apply to the E6000 adhesive posted back on page 3? Just checking having read a few reports of people being unhappy with Vibratite in this application.
Clusterfrack
02-03-2021, 02:33 PM
Make sense. Does the same apply to the E6000 adhesive posted back on page 3? Just checking having read a few reports of people being unhappy with Vibratite in this application.
E6000 is a single-solvent (Perchloroethylene) liquid hard-set adhesive with good shear and bond strength and excellent toughness. I would worry that you would have trouble removing small screws bonded with this adhesive.
silver sharpies
Quick tip:
Instead of using the paint marker itself, I put a bit of the "ink" onto a toothpick for marking small fasteners like RMR screws... much thinner more precise line. Probably not as durable as a full width sharpie mark... but its not a high wear surface... and is easily touched up.
E6000 is a single-solvent (Perchloroethylene) liquid hard-set adhesive with good shear and bond strength and excellent toughness. I would worry that you would have trouble removing small screws bonded with this adhesive.
In my experience, the E6000 still maintains quite a bit of flexibility and is still way easier to remove a small screw than red loctite. Same thing with sealing plates. Peel and rub.
I think if used on something more porous it’d be an issue. But for metal, the bonding and shear is just about perfect for what I’m using it for. No issue with screws and the combination of a little bit of blue loctite on the tip and some E6000 on the head, no problem. I move RDS around a lot.
I find the right tools are the most important part of not stripping screws when installing and removing optics.
https://chpws.com/product/mrds-maintenance-kit
Caballoflaco
02-04-2021, 09:00 AM
Totally agree. I have a pack of silver sharpies that I use for labeling holsters that work great on black optic screws.
Normal sharpie for silver screws.
I like the three pack “metallic” sharpies. They have a bronze and copper color as well as silver that has been a lot more durable on silver surfaces for me than plain sharpie. I use them on bows, and guns and they don’t come off without some work.
I find the right tools are the most important part of not stripping screws when installing and removing optics.
https://chpws.com/product/mrds-maintenance-kit
$99 for that seems a little steep for what you get.
I use this:
https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Accurizing-Measurement-Gunsmithing-Maintenance/dp/B0012AXR4S
For $46 and you can use it for other small parts. If you have different hex bits around already that makes it even more versatile.
And Sharpies and adhesive aren’t expensive.
So probably $30 less overall with more function IMO.
RTV silicone has very poor shear strength. I would not rely on that for this use. Vibratite would be a better choice.
It's also best practice to keep silicone away from electronics. Shit migrates all over.
$99 for that seems a little steep for what you get.
I use this:
https://www.amazon.com/Wheeler-Accurizing-Measurement-Gunsmithing-Maintenance/dp/B0012AXR4S
For $46 and you can use it for other small parts. If you have different hex bits around already that makes it even more versatile.
And Sharpies and adhesive aren’t expensive.
So probably $30 less overall with more function IMO.
I also have the Wheeler. What I like about the “Fix It Sticks” tool is it is small enough to be in my pistol bag. I assume you can buy just that.
67046
I also have the Wheeler. What I like about the “Fix It Sticks” tool is it is small enough to be in my pistol bag. I assume you can buy just that.
Good points. I have loose Allen and torx wrenches in my range bag for use in a pinch until I get home. That way if I lose it or don’t bring my bag in, I have my bench at home still set up.
Looks like the tool and the torque limiter are $36 each. Tool could likely be easily replaced by a hex head screwdriver that you might keep in your trunk anyway.
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/1021396922?pid=652535&utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Gunsmithing+-+Tools%2C+Jigs+%26+Fixtures&utm_content=652535&gclid=Cj0KCQiA0-6ABhDMARIsAFVdQv_kfEu0zM9dnmmbGUCVzIxFaNMf-xCl7fSORYqF_9Pw_fcYPbSPZNMaAlVUEALw_wcB
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/102291652?pid=502866&utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Gunsmithing+-+Tools%2C+Jigs+%26+Fixtures&utm_content=502866&gclid=Cj0KCQiA0-6ABhDMARIsAFVdQv9wcyT-xnkRoXmlE9BqJlgmIi3fIaVHI86CC4iOiUcwsiFU4LIU_3YaAs 0vEALw_wcB
Clusterfrack
02-04-2021, 03:14 PM
Several years ago I had a chat with Haakan Spuhr about repeatable torque on scope mounts. He strongly recommended torque measurement to set the initial position of each bolt. However, once that is done, the witness mark represents the best, repeatable internal torque for the clamp. Re-torqueing bolts will alter that can can cause a POI change.
Thanks David. That explains why someone might opt to use an aftermarket plate and not the MIM plate that comes with the gun. I really like the look of that C&H polymer V4 plate with the Defender window. Makes a lot of sense. Guess I'll need an inch-lb torque wrench as well, sigh. Thanks again.
https://chpws.com/product/defender-mos-holosun-407c-507c-508t-round-face
Just to update where I'm at on this.
I did end up ordering the Defender V4 plate from C&H. It arrived today. Unfortunately, when I ordered it late Sunday night, I accidentally put the RMR V4 in my cart, and not the Holosun version. My bad. It's on it's way back to C&H, with a request to exchange it for the Holosun version. They were very helpful when I called on the phone.
I also went through NickDrak's stickied thread here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33416-Glock-MOS-RDS-install-thread-(What-has-worked-for-me); what a great resource that is. Appreciate HCM steering me there to take a look. There's a useful post about sourcing M3 screws for the plate, so I ordered a couple of those from Big Tex Outdoors. These are the screws:
https://www.bigtexoutdoors.com/product/high-quality-torx-screws-for-glock-mos-plates-set-of-2/
Still pondering install torque; being a retired Engineer, I'm probably overthinking it. The Holosun user manual sugests 15 inch lbs, and "medium/blue" thread locker, for the optic. More than likely that's what I'll use.
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The "install" thread above suggests 15 inch lbs. The C&H Fixit Stick tool they sell/use is 10 inch lbs. At any rate, I do plan on using VC-3, not blue loctite. I recalled I had several of the little tubes of it from various holster orders from JM CK. Since I will probably use just a teeny amount of locker, I dumped a tube of it into a spare small needle oiler bottle I have. When I need to apply the VC-3, I'll use the oiler.
I went to Michael's Craft store today and bought a Sharpie Oil Based Paint Marker, fine point for $3.99, to torque stripe the screws. The Wheeler FAT wrench arrived via the Brown Truck. It lacks a T10 torx bit in the set which it came with, but I have one from another set of ok-quality hex/torx bits (brand is Craftsman, but probably comes from China; who knows these days).
Same for a new Duracell 1632 battery, which I will install and start tracking battery life. Not that the one that is in the 507c now isn't working, I just plan to replace it to have a baseline.
I'm still hemming and hawing about sights. I will most likely order the Ameriglo black/black GL-429 set from Primary Machine and call it a day. I made up a couple zeroing targets to take to the range, as well, to help with the "MOA" adjustment at 10 yards and 25 yards.
67058
67059
Phew! Hopefully I will have all this put together in the next week or so, and can get to the shooting part. :cool: I really appreciate all you guys help.
Just to update where I'm at on this.
I did end up ordering the Defender V4 plate from C&H. It arrived today. Unfortunately, when I ordered it late Sunday night, I accidentally put the RMR V4 in my cart, and not the Holosun version. My bad. It's on it's way back to C&H, with a request to exchange it for the Holosun version. They were very helpful when I called on the phone.
I also went through NickDrak's stickied thread here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33416-Glock-MOS-RDS-install-thread-(What-has-worked-for-me); what a great resource that is. Appreciate HCM steering me there to take a look. There's a useful post about sourcing M3 screws for the plate, so I ordered a couple of those from Big Tex Outdoors. These are the screws:
https://www.bigtexoutdoors.com/product/high-quality-torx-screws-for-glock-mos-plates-set-of-2/
Still pondering install torque; being a retired Engineer, I'm probably overthinking it. The Holosun user manual sugests 15 inch lbs, and "medium/blue" thread locker, for the optic. More than likely that's what I'll use.
67057
The "install" thread above suggests 15 inch lbs. The C&H Fixit Stick tool they sell/use is 10 inch lbs. At any rate, I do plan on using VC-3, not blue loctite. I recalled I had several of the little tubes of it from various holster orders from JM CK. Since I will probably use just a teeny amount of locker, I dumped a tube of it into a spare small needle oiler bottle I have. When I need to apply the VC-3, I'll use the oiler.
I went to Michael's Craft store today and bought a Sharpie Oil Based Paint Marker, fine point for $3.99, to torque stripe the screws. The Wheeler FAT wrench arrived via the Brown Truck. It lacks a T10 torx bit in the set which it came with, but I have one from another set of ok-quality hex/torx bits (brand is Craftsman, but probably comes from China; who knows these days).
Same for a new Duracell 1632 battery, which I will install and start tracking battery life. Not that the one that is in the 507c now isn't working, I just plan to replace it to have a baseline.
I'm still hemming and hawing about sights. I will most likely order the Ameriglo black/black GL-429 set from Primary Machine and call it a day. I made up a couple zeroing targets to take to the range, as well, to help with the "MOA" adjustment at 10 yards and 25 yards.
67058
67059
Phew! Hopefully I will have all this put together in the next week or so, and can get to the shooting part. :cool: I really appreciate all you guys help.
If you are using the C&H plate, use the the torque values C&H recommends not what the optic maker recommends.
because the posts on the C&H plates come up into the optic's screw holes, the C&H plate use smaller screws. Smaller screws = lower torque values.
If you are using the C&H plate, use the the torque values C&H recommends not what the optic maker recommends.
because the posts on the C&H plates come up into the optic's screw holes, the C&H plate use smaller screws. Smaller screws = lower torque values.
Gotcha.
So 10 in lbs for the Optic to C&H plate, and 15 for the M3 screw from the C&H plate to the slide, or 10 for both?
Gotcha.
So 10 in lbs for the Optic to C&H plate, and 15 for the M3 screw from the C&H plate to the slide, or 10 for both?
Sounds ok but Go with what ever C&H says.
Sounds ok but Go with what ever C&H says.
It looks like 10 in lbs for 4-40s securing the optic to the plate, but an angular “contact plus 1/4 turn” for the M3’s on the plate to slide. So that’s what I plan to do.
67081
Archer1440
02-05-2021, 08:00 AM
VC-3 on these small fasteners is not a good way to go. The blue Loctite solid 248 stick is the right way to go with this.
Magsz
02-15-2021, 12:28 AM
VC-3 on these small fasteners is not a good way to go. The blue Loctite solid 248 stick is the right way to go with this.
I've been using VC3 for three years now without any issues across 3 guns and 80K+ rounds...
It works and a lot of people are recommending it for good reason.
Issues will crop up with VC3 if its not allowed to sit on the screw prior to installation in order for it to begin to solidify. There also may be issues if there is grease or oil on the screws or threaded holes prior to installation. Thoroughly degreasing the mounting surfaces is required along with proper torque spec.
Several years ago I had a chat with Haakan Spuhr about repeatable torque on scope mounts. He strongly recommended torque measurement to set the initial position of each bolt. However, once that is done, the witness mark represents the best, repeatable internal torque for the clamp. Re-torqueing bolts will alter that can can cause a POI change.
CF Just wanted to come back to this. Is there any reason at all to re-torque optic screws periodically, as in say at the annual battery change? Or are the witness marks good to go lifetime?
CF Just wanted to come back to this. Is there any reason at all to re-torque optic screws periodically, as in say at the annual battery change? Or are the witness marks good to go lifetime?
My wife and I routinely check tightness with the Fix it Stick, zero with our Wheeler laser thingee, and battery condition with our tester.
Clusterfrack
05-09-2021, 07:50 AM
CF Just wanted to come back to this. Is there any reason at all to re-torque optic screws periodically, as in say at the annual battery change? Or are the witness marks good to go lifetime?
I don’t know much about pistol mounted optics, so I’ll defer to GJM.
I have never retorqued any of my precision rifle mounts. I do check tightness on the bolts to make sure nothing is loose.
I think the difference is that slide mounted optics take a beating, and the current designs are not sufficient to prevent plastic deformation of the metal.
I’ve never had an issue with optics loosening if they’ve been torqued initially and witness mark intact.
I usually only witness mark the screws and not the optic. I usually just mark them with a silver sharpie at the 12 or 6 o’clock position.
Since blue loctite is kind of brittle, I don’t retorque in case that would that would break the theoretical initial bond.
71227
The “price of admission” to shooting a dot is reliably acquiring the dot. Intermediate is understanding the dot doesn’t need to stop, just stay within the scoring area. Advanced is actually shooting looking at the target and not the dot.
^^^ I think I am starting to understand this. It makes much more sense now, six months later.
Ok so as a bit of an update on my progress with the dot life:
I've been shooting my G34+507c, dot, with no sights. I used it in my first evar GSSF Indoor match, scoring a 474 out of 500 (perfect would be 500. I can do better). The CoF is 5 strings of 10, at 5, 7, 10, 15 and 25, limited in time to like 15s max. I GSSF match 2 of 3 on 6/13. First match with the G34 in USPSA will either be a local indoor up in Sarasota, or the outdoor match in Ruskin FL on 6/20 (or maybe both I dunno yet.) So far my Dry Practice has suffered, as we've been occupied with life. I aim to get back to that this week.
Statically, I shot a 92-3X 10 round two hand unsupported at 25, a personal best and a 2021 goal of mine. Getting 10 on paper AND 90+ has been something I've been aiming for (heh :) ) since I started shooting in 2014, so I'm pretty happy with that. Specific to the RDS in competition, I'm still not sure yet whether I'll use the dot or the circle for the matches. Likely I'll try both and see how it goes this summer.
I set the 507c up in manual brightness mode, same as the 507k, which lacks the auto feature. I picked full bright minus 3 stops for EDC, and have both optics on that setting. It will be interesting to compare between the outdoor match and the indoor facility, as far as dot visibility goes, against the brown USPSA targets.
On carry: My G48 made it back from Primary Machine, milled for the 507k. I may or may not have made an error but I asked them to mill out the rear dovetail. So all I have for a BUIS rear is the "wings" molded into the optic body, and an OEM steel 0.156" front. The gun shoots to the top of those sights. Ok, I guess. My progress with the 48 has been hampered as I had to find out the +p 124 GD causes FTF malfunctions. So I switched to Federal 147 HST. No issues so far.
I go back and forth between the dot and the circle for carry. I calculated the size of a 32MOA circle at 7 yards (2.3", if I did the math right) so it is sobering to realize I can put the circle 'o death on the target and get a shot off with that margin of error. I am coming to realize a good solid first round hit if I can reliably find the circle probably outweighs shooting 1" squares at the static range at 10 yards. So I will likely continue to use the circle for carry.
I have a couple of the Gen 2 Shield S15 mags on order, which I will check with their steel mag catch. It's an experiment; I've always had it in the back of my mind to try these out when I bought the G43X back when, and I'm just getting around to it. Good timing for me, as they just dropped the Gen 2 mags and I was able to get a couple and a mag catch before they went back order.
Bottom line: I am loving the transition to dots this year. The Holosuns just work and work. I have new Duracell batteries in both; not that I expect any issues, I'm just going to continue to run them, and replace yearly (or earlier if I have issues with the 507k).
More to follow in a couple months after I get some matches in.
paherne
06-01-2021, 06:33 PM
For those of you looking for a good way to degrease your screws and the screw holes in slides, plates, etc. I discovered that my daughter uses this and makeup remover cotton pads to clean her nail polish off. https://www.walgreens.com/store/c/walgreens-beauty-nail-polish-remover-pump-100-acetone/ID=prod6237804-product?ext=gooKBM_PLA+-+Beauty+(2019+Update)Beauty__pla_local&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=CjwKCAjwtdeFBhBAEiwAKOIy50d_QToYy4pPndOV0tt1 s2uhX9wR1wsTtYmMiVoyEXzN-t7yyLwlwBoC0FcQAvD_BwE
She has not noticed it missing, yet, and it is much more convenient than trying to use a large can of acetone or 90% alcohol as a degreaser. Soaking the cotton pads and q-tips with the acetone gives just the right amount.
pastaslinger
06-03-2021, 09:51 AM
Silly question, but what kind of pen or paint do you all like to use for witness marking? I would prefer to use something that can be removed
Silly question, but what kind of pen or paint do you all like to use for witness marking? I would prefer to use something that can be removed
I used a Sharpie oil based marker like this:
https://www.jetpens.com/Sharpie-Oil-Based-Paint-Marker-Medium-Point-Metallic-Silver/pd/14230?msclkid=e73cea4d9660165164be8af4b0d89913&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Product%20Ads(BSC)&utm_term=1100002029978&utm_content=Ad%20group%20%231
I would clean it off with Isopropyl alcohol on a Q tip.
My SRO came loose initially after using only Loctite. Since then I used the recommendation of the E6000 between the optic and plate and Loctite and it hasn’t budged since.
About 30 days into the dot life I have learned a lot. Standing and slow firing a dot is one thing. Shooting one in a USPSA style shooting is much different. Especially indexing off strong and weak hand. There’s little margin for error.
I also like using a piece of tape or a paster over the optic to make me shoot target focused.
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