S & W internal lock removal options?

[Rmiked]

Seems there are wide views on the “Hilary Hole”. If I had a SW with lock, I could stomach it if I knew it wouldn’t malfunction. Some guys grind down the “nub” so it can’t block the hammer rear movement. That works. Some guys remove the piece containing the “nub” and plug the key hole. If you remove the flagged (“locked”) panel there will be a rectangular shaped slot on the left side of hammer when viewed from the rear in normal shooting position. Will the hammer stay in plane with that slot open as the hammer moves thru it’s stroke? I guess the trade off is you create an opening for debris, water, whatever to enter the pistol. On the other hand you can save the flagged piece with nub intact so you could put the pistol back like it was made if you needed to sell it later? I guess you could grind it off (Dremel) and always order a replacement piece with nub attached if you desired to sell it “as manufactured” and not create the open slot, assuming the hammer still functions properly with slot open. Are these the basic thought on which way to ensure no malfunction? Some feel it won’t malfunction as long as the return spring works but apparently is doesn’t all the time. I thought I read the more likely “inertia induced failures were magnum pistols with light frames”. I would thing a standard 629 would not fit that category but I have read about failures in them as well.

[vcdgrips]

https://www.originalprecision.com/original-precision.html

I have heard that these parts work quite well on multiple firearms forums over the last 5+ years.


I have no personal experience with the owner nor his product. That is all.

[Rmiked]

Very nice plug for hole retained with slot interfacing with spring driven retainer. He didn’t address it but he must leave the flagged plate with nub on it out of pistol. Which would leave the rectangular slot open after reassembly. I guess the hammer functions fine?

[03RN]

Yeah, it works fine without those parts

[HeavyDuty]

I have two plugged revolvers with the open gap. I haven’t had any problems, but 03RN has much more trigger time with them. I trust his judgement here.

[Redneck Zen]

Just installed plugs from Original Precision, highly recommend them. The owner/maker is a stand up guy ... I accidentally ordered K-frame plugs and had to return them, he sent out the proper J-frame plugs at no extra charge. Delivery time was within 5 days of ordering.

Be warned, however, replacement is not for the faint of heart or fumble-thumbed. The average gun owner will be out of luck, I wager, but those who are used to taking apart their revolvers can probably do it. The Original Precision website has a video showing how to install them.

Also, these aren't cheap -- about $50 for a teeny tiny plug and an even tinier locking pin -- but they are well made and precisely fitted. And where else can you find something like this? I hate that lock, so I think they're worth the cost, cheaper than trading the gun for one without the lock. The black one on my 340PD is nearly invisible in natural light, the stainless one on my 649 isn't invisible, but it is barely noticeable. Wish I'd done this years ago.

[MolonLabe416]

I've used the Original Precision plugs. Service is quick and the product is extremely well made. Recommended.

[paul105]

My all day every day carry gun for the better part of a decade was three 329s with all lock parts removed. Shot over 9,000 rounds through 3 guns during that time frame. My feeling on the plug "why add more parts that might fail". Never had a "debris" problem.

Picture of lock parts failure:
.
https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/329%20LockParts.jpg
.
One of the guns
.
https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/329%20033.jpg

FWIW,

Paul

[ECVMatt]

Another vote for Original Precision. I replaced the lock on my 69 with a kit from them. I am not a S&W guy, but managed to fumble my way through it. I added blue locktite to the plug for an extra measure and piece of mind. My plug stayed in place and my gun ran 100%.

I think it is time for Smith to get rid of that horrid feature.

[JTMcC]

The only Smith with lock I own is a 329PD and I depend heavily on it and carry it 24 hrs per.
I'm in the grind down nub and the possibility of it ever locking up, or, the remove all parts camp.

I've never bothered with a plug, the hole is small and I'm in the desert mountains, besides my gun gets regular maintenance and cleaning.
329's aren't very "pretty" to begin with so I have no need for a precisely fitted plug.

The main thing is to be sure it's completely inoperable, after that it's aesthetics as you see fit.

[O4L]

Just installed plugs from Original Precision, highly recommend them. The owner/maker is a stand up guy ... I accidentally ordered K-frame plugs and had to return them, he sent out the proper J-frame plugs at no extra charge. Delivery time was within 5 days of ordering.

Be warned, however, replacement is not for the faint of heart or fumble-thumbed. The average gun owner will be out of luck, I wager, but those who are used to taking apart their revolvers can probably do it. The Original Precision website has a video showing how to install them.

Also, these aren't cheap -- about $50 for a teeny tiny plug and an even tinier locking pin -- but they are well made and precisely fitted. And where else can you find something like this? I hate that lock, so I think they're worth the cost, cheaper than trading the gun for one without the lock. The black one on my 340PD is nearly invisible in natural light, the stainless one on my 649 isn't invisible, but it is barely noticeable. Wish I'd done this years ago.What did you use to fill the small hole in the J-frames that is open after removing the flag?

[Redneck Zen]

Just installed plugs from Original Precision, highly recommend them. The owner/maker is a stand up guy ... I accidentally ordered K-frame plugs and had to return them, he sent out the proper J-frame plugs at no extra charge. Delivery time was within 5 days of ordering.

Be warned, however, replacement is not for the faint of heart or fumble-thumbed. The average gun owner will be out of luck, I wager, but those who are used to taking apart their revolvers can probably do it. The Original Precision website has a video showing how to install them.

Also, these aren't cheap -- about $50 for a teeny tiny plug and an even tinier locking pin -- but they are well made and precisely fitted. And where else can you find something like this? I hate that lock, so I think they're worth the cost, cheaper than trading the gun for one without the lock. The black one on my 340PD is nearly invisible in natural light, the stainless one on my 649 isn't invisible, but it is barely noticeable. Wish I'd done this years ago.



What did you use to fill the small hole in the J-frames that is open after removing the flag?

See above. I installed the plugs ... or slugs, as the owner/manufacturer calls them. You can see them in the photo of my two guns. They are -- as I said above -- teeny tiny little things, precision machined with teeny tiny little slots in them and a cotter pin kinda key thing to hold them in place. I've pulled a photo from his site that shows the components in their shipping bags.

Best I can do to 'splain it.

[O4L]

See above. I installed the plugs ... or slugs, as the owner/manufacturer calls them. You can see them in the photo of my two guns. They are -- as I said above -- teeny tiny little things, precision machined with teeny tiny little slots in them and a cotter pin kinda key thing to hold them in place. I've pulled a photo from his site that shows the components in their shipping bags.

Best I can do to 'splain it.Yeah, I get that. I'm talking about the even smaller hole towards the rear of the gun that is left open after removing the flag.

[Redneck Zen]

Yeah, I get that. I'm talking about the even smaller hole towards the rear of the gun that is left open after removing the flag.

Haha! Oh that! I just left in the flag. It serves no function other than to fill the hole. And I hate holes. Well, most of them.

[Rmiked]

If you leave the flag in aren’t you also leaving the pin attached to it, which if repositioned inadvertently could prevent the pistol from being fired?

[Pol]

Haha! Oh that! I just left in the flag. It serves no function other than to fill the hole. And I hate holes. Well, most of them.

The flag is the component that locks the hammer. Without the lock in place you rely on gravity alone to prevent it from engaging. Quite likely it moves to and fro from the locked position every time the gun is fired.

[O4L]

Haha! Oh that! I just left in the flag. It serves no function other than to fill the hole. And I hate holes. Well, most of them.It doesn't sound like a good idea to have the flag flopping around in there.

[Redneck Zen]

It doesn't sound like a good idea to have the flag flopping around in there.

You're right! Kinda.

First thing I did was test dry-fire the gun in every conceivable position, rightside up, upside down, sideways, cantedways, backways and etceteraways. ;) No problems. Then I opened the thing up to see if the flag was flopping around. Nope, no floppin'. The thing is held in place with a teeny-tiny itty bitty spring. I even cycled the action and used a pick to try and force the flag to gom up the works. Nope. It worked 100% each and every time.

But .... -- the philosopher Peewee Herman once said, "Everybody's got a big but." And I had one -- while the 649 is a pretty play toy and practice gun, I've carried the 340PD for a long time and intend to continue until I leave this world. I wanted to erase all doubt 'cuz of Murphy's Law. I also wanted to keep that stupid hole plugged.

Dammit, Smith and Wesson!

So after some reading and some thought, I decided the logical thing was to remove the locking lug from the flag. Which took about two minutes with a rotary tool and a polishing stone. Locked it in a vise, ground down the lug, smoothed the base down with a fine stone, added a drop of oil, put it back together. Works just fine, but now without any doubt or concerns about failure. It's still held in the safe position by the teeny-tiny itty-bitty spring, but even if that fails it don't do nuthin' but fill the hole. No affect on the hammer at all. Did the same for the 649, no problem.

Thanks for pointing out the flag. Odds were I'd never had a problem as it was. The thing is, I got hit by my own car a couple of years ago (some lady came flying through the parking lot and hit my car, which nearly knocked me on my ass). What were the odds of that happening? So yeah, I like trimming the odds to my favor.

[Dave T]

RZ,

For me that's the justification for installing one of the Plugs available out there. Even then it leaves a stopped up hole on the side of the revolver that as a right hand shooter I see all the time. The fact we have this to discuss just ticks me off.

Yea, I'm old and don't like change. I particularly don't like change than makes more work, more problems, or that accomplishes nothing but making a lawyer or some bureaucrat happy.

Better go take my morning meds,
Dave

[sharps54]

I only own one S&W revolver with a lock and won't use it for anything other than paper targets. I don't believe the extra legal wrangling is worth the risk and stick to pre-locks, modern no-lock hammerless models, or Rugers for carry or hunting.

[Scal]

RZ,

For me that's the justification for installing one of the Plugs available out there. Even then it leaves a stopped up hole on the side of the revolver that as a right hand shooter I see all the time. The fact we have this to discuss just ticks me off.

Yea, I'm old and don't like change. I particularly don't like change than makes more work, more problems, or that accomplishes nothing but making a lawyer or some bureaucrat happy.

Better go take my morning meds,
Dave

I mean, you’re not wrong, and I am just entering middle age, and the stupid locks makes me pissy. I am completely fine with MIM parts, provided they’re executed well. I am guessing by now, that S&W has this worked out quite well, and I haven’t heard of large amounts of failures of their guns that can be laid at the feet of bad MIM parts.

But this whole thing with the lock adds complexity to the gun, removes mass from hammers, even if it’s just a little bit so they can engage with locks, and given that recoil can cause the locks to activate, makes the guns potentially less reliable, and it makes it harder to make the actions really nice. So I see several things that are worse, for as far as I can tell, almost zero benefits, given that a locking case or trigger lock gives the end user the same options but without nonsense that makes the gun objectively worse.

[Stephanie B]

So after some reading and some thought, I decided the logical thing was to remove the locking lug from the flag. Which took about two minutes with a rotary tool and a polishing stone. Locked it in a vise, ground down the lug, smoothed the base down with a fine stone, added a drop of oil, put it back together. Works just fine, but now without any doubt or concerns about failure. It's still held in the safe position by the teeny-tiny itty-bitty spring, but even if that fails it don't do nuthin' but fill the hole. No affect on the hammer at all. Did the same for the 649, no problem.

So why buy a lock-hole plug? Just take the locking lug out, do what you did, and put it back in.

[Redneck Zen]

So why buy a lock-hole plug? Just take the locking lug out, do what you did, and put it back in.

Just because. :cool:

Nah, I put in the plug 'cuz I don't like that freakin' hole. I might have mentioned that earlier. :rolleyes: Yeah, taking out the lock is good 'cuz they've got a rep for failing, but just removing the lug and leaving those holes there ... well, to me that's like taking the spoiler off my old Mustang and leaving the bolt holes in the trunk lid.

More relevant, I've seen rifles where the owner has removed a scope and left the mounting holes empty. Very unbecoming.

So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Michpatriot]

On my first 340, being a tool and die welder, my solution was to tig weld both holes and bench down the weld till it was flush. Then I bead blasted the frame, if you do a search on the smith and Wesson forum for : bye bye illness, there's pics of my 340 with the holes erased. My 329 got a plug. I just had to see if I could make em go away.

[Redneck Zen]

On my first 340, being a tool and die welder, my solution was to tig weld both holes and bench down the weld till it was flush. Then I bead blasted the frame, if you do a search on the smith and Wesson forum for : bye bye illness, there's pics of my 340 with the holes erased. My 329 got a plug. I just had to see if I could make em go away.

Wow. that's way out of my skill set, obviously, but it is impressive. Fill me in ... tig welding scandium/aluminum is a go, then? How did you finish it? Just the bare scandium? Saw the pics ... your gat looks nice. ;)

I shoot my 340s a couple of times a year, but mostly shoot my steel guns. One of the titaniums are always on me or nearby; the 340 PD shows wear from pocket carry but is tight. I have several Js, including a beat up old Model 38 which looks like crap but it is mechanically perfect and accurate and has a scary smooth d/a trigger.

[Michpatriot]

I enjoy lighting up my tig in places others shy away from, I regularly take jobs others have turned down on plastic injection molds manufactured from aluminum that cost as much as my house. The holes on my 340 really bugged me, and I toyed with the idea for about a week, having never welded on this particular alloy was intriguing. I disassembled the 340 and taped off areas and used clay in other areas I didn't want media blast to affect, tossed it in the cabinet and had one last look at the black coating turning it over inside the window, and started blasting..Lol it felt great taking the first real un reversible step. After that it was just like welding up any other thousands of little aluminum features I'd done on molds. Then I bench stoned down the weld and reblasted it, I really like the look after it was all done. On this 340 I also removed the tritium front sight and adjusted the windage by machining one side of the sight base and then manufacturing a shim the same thickness that I removed from the sight, drilled the shim to match the hole for the sight pin and reinstalled it, now it shoots to my point of aim. Oh and somewhere along the line I fitted it with a titanium cylinder.

[Redneck Zen]

I enjoy lighting up my tig in places others shy away from, I regularly take jobs others have turned down on plastic injection molds manufactured from aluminum that cost as much as my house. The holes on my 340 really bugged me, and I toyed with the idea for about a week, having never welded on this particular alloy was intriguing. I disassembled the 340 and taped off areas and used clay in other areas I didn't want media blast to affect, tossed it in the cabinet and had one last look at the black coating turning it over inside the window, and started blasting..Lol it felt great taking the first real un reversible step. After that it was just like welding up any other thousands of little aluminum features I'd done on molds. Then I bench stoned down the weld and reblasted it, I really like the look after it was all done. On this 340 I also removed the tritium front sight and adjusted the windage by machining one side of the sight base and then manufacturing a shim the same thickness that I removed from the sight, drilled the shim to match the hole for the sight pin and reinstalled it, now it shoots to my point of aim. Oh and somewhere along the line I fitted it with a titanium cylinder.

A-FREAKING-MAZING!!!!

Pretty speechless. I do some pretty dumb stuff to my guns, so far I haven't screwed them up. But this is a whole new level of supreme audaciousness. Wow. Just amazing.

Interesting how you used clay. Reminds me of swordsmiths of old ... and new. ;) Good stuff!

How about a shot of your sight picture? Specifically the rear sight. One of mine shoot slightly to the right at 10 yards, the other slightly to the left. This is usually remedied by rotating the barrel a teeny tiny bit, but as i understand it, the barrel shroud is locked into the frame with a detent of sorts.

I did recently fit a titanium cylinder to my M&P 340, so now I got two ultra lightweight mini-magnums. I usually carry an RMR'd G43, but if I go light I carry the two titanium guns ... why bother with a speedloader or speedstrip to reload, just pull out a second gun. ;)

[Michpatriot]

Couple sight pics...

[Michpatriot]

One more..just for those thinking 340sc, nope naked MP..

[Michpatriot]

A-FREAKING-MAZING!!!!

Pretty speechless. I do some pretty dumb stuff to my guns, so far I haven't screwed them up. But this is a whole new level of supreme audaciousness. Wow. Just amazing.

Interesting how you used clay. Reminds me of swordsmiths of old ... and new. ;) Good stuff!

How about a shot of your sight picture? Specifically the rear sight. One of mine shoot slightly to the right at 10 yards, the other slightly to the left. This is usually remedied by rotating the barrel a teeny tiny bit, but as i understand it, the barrel shroud is locked into the frame with a detent of sorts.

I did recently fit a titanium cylinder to my M&P 340, so now I got two ultra lightweight mini-magnums. I usually carry an RMR'd G43, but if I go light I carry the two titanium guns ... why bother with a speedloader or speedstrip to reload, just pull out a second gun. ;)



ReClocking isn't the be all end all, you mess with the cylinder latching lockup when clocking even if you could bypass the pin. Machining the sight is the fix for windage. On my other 340 that is a PD I Installed a Trijicon brand front sight that was a little taller, it didn't need any machining for windage. They are each their own DNA if you will. I just can't deal with POA POI differences, must tweak em to my needs..

[Redneck Zen]

Couple sight pics...

It's so beee-yoooooo-tiful. :D :cool:

The naked look is tre cool.

Thanks. You are an inspiration.