Tubbs Flat Wire Recoil Springs

[314159]

Anybody here have any experience with these? The sales pitch is heavy on theory and comes across as plausible but I never studied hard enough to be a real engineer.

So, I would appreciate real world experiences pertaining most of all to reliability and the shooting experience in a lightweight AR-15 build.

[314159]

The complete lack of response to this question is an answer all its own. I suspect the flat wire spring thing is not really a thing at all. I'll move on quietly...

[LittleLebowski]

I always heard to to just use a Sprinco blue (https://www.primaryarms.com/sprinco-m4-ar15-blue-enhanced-power-carbine-buffer-spring), but I never ordered one. Got them in the cart now that I see the price is sane.

[farscott]

Due to the superior nature of the materials used, Tubb Precision Stainless Steel Flatwire Buffer Springs have the same power as conventionally constructed "extra power" springs, yet provide that extra energy using a lighter spring weight.

The quoted sentence exposes the snake oil. If the spring weight is lighter, where does the extra energy originate? How does that work in an AR? What gets the extra energy? Is it the bolt cycling faster?

Another way to think about it. The force of a spring is proportional to a constant times the distance the spring is compressed or stretched as long as the spring is within its elastic envelope.

Force times distance is energy. Power is energy per unit time. The spring weight is analogous to the constant. If the constant is smaller, the only way to get the same force is to increase travel. If that is not the case and travel is the same, the decreased spring weight has to result in decreased force. And that intuitively makes sense. In the rifle, the travel distance is fixed. So less energy should be the result. So how does the lighter spring result in extra energy?

The only way to have the same power with less energy for the same mass to be moved the same distance is to do the work in less time. So the rifle would have to cycle faster. That makes some sense as the same buffer is being moved the same distance. But if the rifle cycles too quickly, there are issues. So what benefit does the spring offer to the buyer? To the seller, it is obvious the spring offers a way to extract more money from the buyer.

[Norville]

The quoted sentence exposes the snake oil. If the spring weight is lighter, where does the extra energy originate? How does that work in an AR? What gets the extra energy? Is it the bolt cycling faster?

Another way to think about it. The force of a spring is proportional to a constant times the distance the spring is compressed or stretched as long as the spring is within its elastic envelope.

Force times distance is energy. Power is energy per unit time. The spring weight is analogous to the constant. If the constant is smaller, the only way to get the same force is to increase travel. If that is not the case and travel is the same, the decreased spring weight has to result in decreased force. And that intuitively makes sense. In the rifle, the travel distance is fixed. So less energy should be the result. So how does the lighter spring result in extra energy?

The only way to have the same power with less energy for the same mass to be moved the same distance is to do the work in less time. So the rifle would have to cycle faster. That makes some sense as the same buffer is being moved the same distance. But if the rifle cycles too quickly, there are issues. So what benefit does the spring offer to the buyer? To the seller, it is obvious the spring offers a way to extract more money from the buyer.

Only if the material is the same. The density of steel varies little, but the range of physical properties is vast.

[farscott]

Only if the material is the same. The density of steel varies little, but the range of physical properties is vast.

Using spring weight in terms of firearms, like a 16# recoil spring for a five-inch .45 ACP 1911. Not using weight in terms of mass. In firearm terms, a 16# five-inch 1911 recoil spring should have a lower spring constant than an 18# five-inch 1911 recoil spring.

[Norville]

Using spring weight in terms of firearms, like a 16# recoil spring for a five-inch .45 ACP 1911. Not using weight in terms of mass. In firearm terms, a 16# five-inch 1911 recoil spring should have a lower spring constant than an 18# five-inch 1911 recoil spring.

Got it, thought you were misapplying your physics ;)

[farscott]

Got it, thought you were misapplying your physics ;)

Oh, I probably am.*

*I am a EE by trade, so my statics and dynamics are not the best. Have not done much with it in thirty-plus years. Use a lot of thermo though.

[EricM]

I recently purchased a 9mm CMMG RDB upper and came across someone who did a pretty deep dive (http://www.c3junkie.com/?page_id=280) into optimal spring and buffer setup in the PCC context. Looking for the easy button, I ordered his setup (which includes the Tubb spring) but haven't even gotten the lower together yet so I have no personal observations to offer. He mentions liking the same setup for 5.56 though.

Around the same time I bookmarked this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?208643-Educate-me-Flat-wire-vs-round-spring-technical-data) on M4C for future reading but never got back to it.

[M2CattleCo]

I’ve been shooting ARs pretty hot and heavy for about 20 years now.

I’ve played with a lot of different things in the buffer tube and have come to the conclusion that a mil-spec stainless spring and an H or H2 buffer is king of the hill.

The barrel and BCG is the heart of the system and getting that right is priority #1.

[314159]

Wow, I was essentially asking "How do springs work?" Sorry.

Lots of good in-depth info from the M4C link. As I really wanted to avoid having a research project, the always sage advice of a Sprinco and H or H2 buffer is definitely the way to go for me. Thanks guys.

[M2CattleCo]

Springco are fine if you take care of them but they love to rust if left outside. I had one fail in a 6920 that’s kept in a truck or an a 4-wheeler in a barn.

[Trigger]

I recommend IMSI springs. They are chrome silicon springs, and seem to last longer than Wolff spring steel springs. I like them in my pistols. Tubb recommends chrome silicon springs. For AR-15s, I honestly like the JP silent captured spring system. Makes the AR shoot a lot smoother.

As far as the flat wire and the original post, in a confined environment like a pistol recoil assembly, or mainspring housing, a flat wire spring (rectangular spring cross section) allows one to get more cross sectional spring area into the same operating space. Chrome silicon plus flat wire design gives higher spring performance and longer life before replacement.

YMMV.

[Parf]

Our local group has an "Optimized braced pistol" build that a lot of us run (maybe nine people I know of?), and the Tubbs spring (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/recoil-parts/recoil-springs/ar-15-car-15-308-ar-stainless-steel-springs-prod22336.aspx) is one of the spec'd parts. Maybe it's not for everyone, but it was listed as a non-negotiable part of this tuned gas build. My macro pistol with a Law Tactical folder has a regular buffer, and my build with a LW BCG has an empty buffer. Both run the Tubbs spring (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/recoil-parts/recoil-springs/ar-15-car-15-308-ar-stainless-steel-springs-prod22336.aspx). They shoot soooooo soft, it's cheating.

[spyderco monkey]

The complete lack of response to this question is an answer all its own. I suspect the flat wire spring thing is not really a thing at all. I'll move on quietly...

Amphibian over on ARFCOM has been running a number of full auto trials for improving controllability and smoothness.

Probably some of the best open source firearms testing I've seen posted anywhere. Full autismo analysis of multiple parts and combinations.

His findings were that the best in terms of rate of fire and controllability was:

The Amphibian
-A5 Buffer Tube
-Kynshot 9mm Hydraulic Buffer (same length as A5 buffer)
-Tubbs Flat Wire Spring

That combo dropped a Midlength AR from 850-900rpm to 630rpm, with a smooth recoil impulse. This smoothness extended to semi auto fire as well.

Thats about the extent of what I know about the Tubbs though.

[TiroFijo]

Amphibian over on ARFCOM has been running a number of full auto trials for improving controllability and smoothness.

Probably some of the best open source firearms testing I've seen posted anywhere. Full autismo analysis of multiple parts and combinations.

His findings were that the best in terms of rate of fire and controllability was:

The Amphibian
-A5 Buffer Tube
-Kynshot 9mm Hydraulic Buffer (same length as A5 buffer)
-Tubbs Flat Wire Spring

That combo dropped a Midlength AR from 850-900rpm to 630rpm, with a smooth recoil impulse. This smoothness extended to semi auto fire as well.

Thats about the extent of what I know about the Tubbs though.

Please, do you have a link?

[critter]

Anybody here have any experience with these? The sales pitch is heavy on theory and comes across as plausible but I never studied hard enough to be a real engineer.

So, I would appreciate real world experiences pertaining most of all to reliability and the shooting experience in a lightweight AR-15 build.

Sorry, just noticed this. I have Tubbs flat springs in a couple of mine. I do like them. Not enough to equip all with them, but the are definitely silent -- which is cool. as for performance improvement in any other category -- I don't notice any significant difference.

[JohnO]

While shootability, perceived recoil and control ability are all niceties that many focus upon, others want extreme reliability. The reliability of the AR platform is highly dependent on many factors. Gas port size, Gas system length, Barrel dwell time, Buffer type & weight, quality of components, chamber dimensions, suppressed & unsuppressed, magazine feed lips, lubrication, ammunition and more (extractor performance ...) all factor into the firing cycle.

Mike Pannone conducted testing where he stressed the platform to the failure point then changed springs and buffers to document performance effects. And you will see in the article it was a specific AR of know origin and quality. Check out his article here: https://www.defensereview.com/m4m4a1-carbine-reliability-issues-why-they-occur-and-why-theyre-our-fault/

To give a blanket statement that spring XYZ will do ABC in your weapon may or may not be true and may have unintended consequences.

[spyderco monkey]

Please, do you have a link?

Sorry, it was in the M16 section of ARFCOM. But when the forum got backed up after being deplatformed, I guess it disapeared.

But Amphibian is still there. His testing is on his website, but the m16 specific content has been put behind a password.

http://www.c3junkie.com/?page_id=164

This gives a hint to the level of testing though, with info on the Tubb spring:

http://www.c3junkie.com/?page_id=977