Things to think about besides triggers, sights, and gear.

[SouthNarc]

This is an incredibly valuable video. Watch ALL of it and listen to what this guy says.

ShivWorks ECQC Alumni will recognize this as textbook content streamed together in the Sunday Three Person Full Spectrum Evolution.

VCAST alumni will recognize elements of the Saturday evening evolution.

AMIS Alumni will recognize their training from the "Don't Shoot Yet" module on Sunday.


Things to consider:

-The importance of properly Managing Unknown Contacts.

-An assault in The Triangle of the vehicle and an inability to translate BJJ in a novel environment with specific contextualization.

-In-Fight Weapons Access.

-A "Don't Shoot Yet" situation that requires managing distance and potential with verbalization, all while "riding the brakes".

-A benign third party filming the altercation that is present but not part of the problem but still dividing attention.

-Ambiguity and Uncertainty.

-Interdisciplinary/Multi-Modal Problem Solving.


This is a civilian "Defensive Gun Use" that will not be recorded in any data base because there wasn't an arrest and there wasn't an injury severe enough to warrant medical attention.
How many DGUs are there like this that civilians manage that go unrecorded? This is the problem with basing one's curriculum strictly on "data" where shots are fired, arrests are made, or injuries are recorded. There's an entire range of problems that exist that have no evidence other than anecdotally like this incident.

This is why an instructor's "experience" most assuredly IS vital and not an "appeal to authority".

I know what I know because I've lived it and I'm not going to have a debate with you because you have a forty hour instructor certification under someone I have coffee with once a year at a conference.

I will continue to evolve ShivWorks Curriculum and POIs based on my own experiences, those of the Alumni, and what I have observed in the lab over the past 23 years.

That's what you're paying for. My lens.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Jzgekbv6I&t=620s

[RJ]

SouthNarc thanks for this.

I am hoping to be selected for your class at TacCon '21. In any event, at some point in the next 6-24 months, you are going to be saddled with me as a 62 year old student in an ECQC class. I have simply got to take this.

Rich

[SouthNarc]

SouthNarc thanks for this.

I am hoping to be selected for your class at TacCon '21. In any event, at some point in the next 6-24 months, you are going to be saddled with me as a 62 year old student in an ECQC class. I have simply got to take this.

Rich

Well since you're asking early I'll get you in Rich. Just flag me at Tac Con and remind of this post.

[ER_STL]

Highly valuable video. Beyond giving his side of the experience, he also seems like exactly the type of person the gun community so desperately needs - responsible, well-spoken, empathetic and probably well-trained.

Thanks for sharing.

[RJ]

Well since you're asking early I'll get you in Rich. Just flag me at Tac Con and remind of this post.

Thank you sir, but I'll take my chances in the lottery like everyone else. Either way, I will be glad to say hi at TacCon if it works out.

On the video, wow, what an eye opener. And literally taking place on the guy's doorstep, too. The "I lost my holster in the scuffle" angle was interesting. I've never pondered what I would do, if I needed to reholster, and mine wasn't on me. I use either a JMCK IWB3 strong side, or now that I've lost 25 lbs recently (#humblebrag), a Dark Star Gear Hitchiker worn AIWB, both with PTD loops. The DSG Koala I just ordered has a PTD loop as well.

But yeah, seems like the guy had his priorities straight: Mindset, Skillset, Toolset, as that Paul Sharp guy says.

[SouthNarc]

The "I lost my holster in the scuffle" angle was interesting. I've never pondered what I would do, if I needed to reholster, and mine wasn't on me. I use either a JMCK IWB3 strong side, or now that I've lost 25 lbs recently (#humblebrag), a Dark Star Gear Hitchiker worn AIWB, both with PTD loops. The DSG Koala I just ordered has a PTD loop as well.



Great point and one I didn't note in my original post. This is actually quite common in the aforementioned three person evolution on Sunday in ECQC. Guy gets into a dust up, draws the weapon, can't quite get the shot, loses the holster, and then range opens back up into non-kinetic interaction. Now we're talking with a gun in hand and the place we normally stow it is absent.

Happens quite frequently with holsters that have shitty plastic clips.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'd add two things:

1) Continuously set expectations for onlookers, even if you don't think there are any onlookers. Many crimes have more "ear witnesses" then eye witnesses, and that was true even before everyone was a like-hungry camera wielder. "He attacked me, stay back! He might be armed! Call the police!" on repeat helps set expectations and primes witnesses to be on your side of the narrative.

2) Call the police. Somebody is going to. Maybe the other guy Whoever talks first becomes the default narrative. The default narrative must then be overturned, which is harder then simply establishing the default narrative.

[SouthNarc]

I'd add two things:

1) Continuously set expectations for onlookers, even if you don't think there are any onlookers. Many crimes have more "ear witnesses" then eye witnesses, and that was true even before everyone was a like-hungry camera wielder. "He attacked me, stay back! He might be armed! Call the police!" on repeat helps set expectations and primes witnesses to be on your side of the narrative.

2) Call the police. Somebody is going to. Maybe the other guy Whoever talks first becomes the default narrative. The default narrative must then be overturned, which is harder then simply establishing the default narrative.


Agreed.👍🏽

[ER_STL]

I’d like to ask a few leading questions to milk more out of you and BBI. The answers might understandably be, “take my classes and find out”.


Overall in your opinion, how did he (the victim) handle the situation? He appears to be doing a lot of things right.
If the attacker decided to rush him open-handed, would he have been justified in shooting him?
Was there a point in time where it would have been more appropriate to reholster his gun (assuming his holster didn’t come out) and reach for something less-lethal rather than continuing to hold him at gunpoint?

[45dotACP]

Couple things that stuck out to me:

1. Training: He said he had 4 months of training martial arts. In BJJ, that's not a lot of time. You can train for 4 months and still get your ass whipped by a guy who is bigger and stronger. A fight is a "come as you are" event. The skills you have and the equipment you have should be enough to get you through it, so DON'T DELAY GETTING SKILLED. Would you rather be a guy with 4 months or BJJ, or 4 years of BJJ. I know what I'd prefer.

2. He kept eyes on the guy. Managed distance too though. That is extremely smart. The dude ducking behind the car and picking at his waist are solid cues to pick up on. If he wasn't trained in some sort of higher level defensive firearms class I'd be surprised. Also the solid trigger finger placement. Smart.

3. Lost the holster in the scuffle. So even if he did not draw and did engage the dude with his BJJ, there's the chance that his gun pops free...then it's fight over a gun. Risky.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[blues]

...In BJJ, that's not a lot of time. You can train for 4 months and still get your ass whipped by a guy who is bigger and stronger. A fight is a "come as you are" event...

Frankly, one can get his or her ass kicked regardless of their level or rating...but I agree with you that training and fitness is (by and large) a benefit. Complacency is not.

[45dotACP]

Frankly, one can get his or her ass kicked regardless of their level or rating...but I agree with you that training and fitness is (by and large) a benefit. Complacency is not.A fair point. But I feel like it's not very controversial to assert that the less training you have, the harder the ass whoopin is likely to be.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[BehindBlueI's]

I’d like to ask a few leading questions to milk more out of you and BBI. The answers might understandably be, “take my classes and find out”.


Overall in your opinion, how did he (the victim) handle the situation? He appears to be doing a lot of things right.
If the attacker decided to rush him open-handed, would he have been justified in shooting him?
Was there a point in time where it would have been more appropriate to reholster his gun (assuming his holster didn’t come out) and reach for something less-lethal rather than continuing to hold him at gunpoint?


#1: I think he did really well overall. I suspect he stayed put over concerns about his car or just an OODA loop issue. Once he'd successfully disengaged, he could have continued to carefully create distance, fully disengage, and call police. Then he wouldn't have had to deal with hippy-camera guy and the chances for another reengagement would have, of course, been diminished. Other than that I don't think there's anything I'd critique with the information we have beyond what I already stated.

#2: I suspect this will vary state to state. In *my* state he could have shot him in the head and been fine criminally and immune to civil suits. An attack on an occupied vehicle can be met with deadly force. In other states this may not be true, or disparity of force issues must be present.

#3: I don't see the point in holding him at gunpoint. You haven't called for help. No cavalry is coming. You aren't the police trying to affect an arrest. Why hold him at gun point vs disengaging? Now that you're in the street, you have a higher burden of proof for a self-defense claim. Disparity of force issues now come in to play. The suspect's furtive movements, statements, etc. come in to play. It's tough for me to say when he should have holstered because I don't know his skill level, how hurt he was from the earlier blows, etc...but if you aren't willing to shoot the guy, it's time to at least consider holstering. Maybe you decide to, maybe you decide low ready, maybe you decide to keep pointing, but break the OODA loop of just continuing to point and actively assess the situation and decide based on that assessment vs just inertia.

[Hambo]

No one has mentioned this:

2:30 "he runs around my car and rips the door open..."

If you're not in the process of entering/exiting, your car should be locked.

[SouthNarc]

I’d like to ask a few leading questions to milk more out of you and BBI. The answers might understandably be, “take my classes and find out”.


Overall in your opinion, how did he (the victim) handle the situation? He appears to be doing a lot of things right.
If the attacker decided to rush him open-handed, would he have been justified in shooting him?
Was there a point in time where it would have been more appropriate to reholster his gun (assuming his holster didn’t come out) and reach for something less-lethal rather than continuing to hold him at gunpoint?



1. Overall I think he did a really good job of "riding the brakes" throughout the duration of the incident. I think he stayed in the moment and everything he did was measured. I like seeing that with people that carry guns.

2. Like BBI said that's gonna be a state by state issue but it's something that comes up in ECQC all the time as we simulate that very issue quite a bit. There's not a clear cut answer. In places where there may be a duty to retreat and in the current political climate you may very well get indicted/prosecuted for shooting someone who rushes you. One thing that would have been in his favor was that he was already unexpectedly and violently assaulted in his vehicle in front of his home.

3. I actually get people that do that with inert pepper spray in ECQC all the time. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. When the person taking the spray simulates a pause it can buy time for escape or even end the situation altogether. Other times when someone rushes at the moment spray is deployed both parties end up fighting contaminated over a gun that he knows that you have. No free lunch but having something between "a harsh word and a gunshot" as Chuck Haggard puts it, is a good idea I think.

I'll also offer a mild apology for the tone of my post, as when I copy and pasted that from my FB, I had just come out of a discussion with some NRA instructor types who think a gun is the answer to everything and are very "line in the sand" about "what is and isn't" and had offered some TERRIBLE advice. My mistake was engaging with people who I know don't have any tenure or experience in life much less firearms training.

Some of that carried over here and it shouldn't have.

[Rex G]

No one has mentioned this:

2:30 "he runs around my car and rips the door open..."

If you're not in the process of entering/exiting, your car should be locked.

This, so very much.

Auto-unlocking has, of course, become a normal thing, at least with vehicles having automatic transmissions. We can/should learn to re-lock, immediately, as needed, whenever we hear that unlocking sound.

Of course, even a locked door still has an easily-shattered window, depending upon whether the attacker has an appropriate object to direct and concentrate the force of the blow.

[Hambo]

This, so very much.

Auto-unlocking has, of course, become a normal thing, at least with vehicles having automatic transmissions. We can/should learn to re-lock, immediately, as needed, whenever we hear that unlocking sound.

Of course, even a locked door still has an easily-shattered window, depending upon whether the attacker has an appropriate object to direct and concentrate the force of the blow.

I would say not to rely on the auto lock. My wife's car has to start moving before they lock automatically. The window can be shattered, but we've all seen a lot of window shattering attempts fail. At the very least it buys you a little time during which you can start driving away or access whatever tools you need.

[BehindBlueI's]

I would say not to rely on the auto lock. My wife's car has to start moving before they lock automatically. The window can be shattered, but we've all seen a lot of window shattering attempts fail. At the very least it buys you a little time during which you can start driving away or access whatever tools you need.

I think window shattering will be tougher in the future as well, as manufacturers go to the same glass in side windows as in windshields. Many cars already have it, and I seem to recall it being mandatory going forward after a certain point. The laminated glass is *much* harder to break then the tempered glass, as many here probably know first hand.

[BN]

I would say not to rely on the auto lock. My wife's car has to start moving before they lock automatically.

You might be able to change that. I changed mine to lock when I put it in gear. Trouble is that it will unlock when you put it in park.

[Rex G]

Trouble is that it will unlock when you put it in park.

This.

[Rex G]

I would say not to rely on the auto lock. My wife's car has to start moving before they lock automatically.

I was referring to the UN-locking that happens when the gear selector is moved to “P.” We need to be ready to immediately RE-lock, manually.

[David S.]

I was referring to the UN-locking that happens when the gear selector is moved to “P.” We need to be ready to immediately RE-lock, manually.

I recall John Corriea mentioning in one of his Active Self Protection videos that most cars have a way of deactivating that automatic functionality.

[Rex G]

I recall John Corriea mentioning in one of his Active Self Protection videos that most cars have a way of deactivating that automatic functionality.

That would be a good thing to research.

OTOH, those of use who use rentals, or employers’ vehicles, probably should maintain the awareness of the auto-lock/unlock.

[Navin Johnson]

So within the context of the OP's thread title....

Apparently waste band or sweatpants holsters are a bad idea? Seems like going for a roll is a great way to lose a gun with this set up. Or your option is to go gun early so you don't lose it.

Should concealed holsters have some type of retention even if the holster stays put so does the gat?

If you lived in an area due to politics or laws that shooting that suspect if he charged would be a bad idea ....what do you do with the gun during the charge?

should we all have some type of hoodie that can be converted into an emergency holster/backpack? Or did I just succumb to marketing? (Sarcasm)

[Cory]

Couple things that stuck out to me:

1. Training: He said he had 4 months of training martial arts. In BJJ, that's not a lot of time. You can train for 4 months and still get your ass whipped by a guy who is bigger and stronger. A fight is a "come as you are" event. The skills you have and the equipment you have

It's also worthy of noting having your gun for a burrito run matters.


So within the context of the OP's thread title....

Apparently waste band or sweatpants holsters are a bad idea? Seems like going for a roll is a great way to lose a gun with this set up. Or your option is to go gun early so you don't lose it.

Should concealed holsters have some type of retention even if the holster stays put so does the gat?

If you lived in an area due to politics or laws that shooting that suspect if he charged would be a bad idea ....what do you do with the gun during the charge?

should we all have some type of hoodie that can be converted into an emergency holster/backpack? Or did I just succumb to marketing? (Sarcasm)

Choosing a quality holster with proven attachment should significantly mitigate the issue. Nothing is fool proof, but a good belt with a good holster makes losing your gun bucket harder.

[Navin Johnson]

It's also worthy of noting having your gun for a burrito run matters.



Choosing a quality holster with proven attachment should significantly mitigate the issue. Nothing is fool proof, but a good belt with a good holster makes losing your gun bucket harder.

Not being sarcastic but....Duh!

I ask these questions because many here carry in their gym shorts around the house or to the store or walking the dog or at the gym. Even some SMEs said this. Seems like it negates the ability to go hands-on.

[Cory]

Not being sarcastic but....Duh!

I ask these questions because many here carry in their gym shorts around the house or to the store or walking the dog or at the gym. Even some SMEs said this. Seems like it negates the ability to go hands-on.

I misunderstood what you were driving at. You mean specifically with gym shorts and similar elastic waste apparel? That doesn't apply to me but I'd like to hear SME take on that too. I suspect the new Phlster option to get mentioned though.

[Hambo]

That would be a good thing to research.

OTOH, those of use who use rentals, or employers’ vehicles, probably should maintain the awareness of the auto-lock/unlock.

My wife's car is a 6-spd, so it doesn't unlock automatically. Your point about awareness is spot on. If you can program it to work the way you want do, otherwise, make overriding a habit.

[Shoresy]

I was referring to the UN-locking that happens when the gear selector is moved to “P.” We need to be ready to immediately RE-lock, manually.

This might be fodder for it's own thread, but what vehicles have this bug... I mean, "feature"?

[blues]

My perspective is that at some point you've got to live your life. Worrying about how we're carrying in gym shorts, sweatpants, wet suit, g-string, bikini, etc. becomes reduced to the absurd as we find smaller and smaller niches to obsess over.

What holster when you mow your lawn? The appropriate gear while cleaning your gutters. Which holster to run for those runs to the bathroom.

Thankfully, I only have to worry about gym shorts or sweatpants, and in those I trust my life (apparently) to the clip on my Dark Star Gear J-frame holster, or the DCC clip on the Harry's. I'm just not willing to stop living to refine and micromanage my choices more than that.

Of course, if I were Scots-Irish, I'd be kilt on da streets...no doubt about it. I think the holster makers are going to need to come out with a "plaid" line.

[Rex G]

This might be fodder for it's own thread, but what vehicles have this bug... I mean, "feature"?

Well, nowadays, most vehicles do.

[ER_STL]

I'll also offer a mild apology for the tone of my post, as when I copy and pasted that from my FB, I had just come out of a discussion with some NRA instructor types who think a gun is the answer to everything and are very "line in the sand" about "what is and isn't" and had offered some TERRIBLE advice. My mistake was engaging with people who I know don't have any tenure or experience in life much less firearms training.

Some of that carried over here and it shouldn't have.

Apology mildly accepted...I think.

Once upon a time, people had to pay to learn information from rightful SMEs of particular fields that's now offered for free on the Internet. I've seen a lot of really knowledgeable people with useful and interesting insights eventually get fed up and abandon social forums such as this because it puts them into conversations with others who speak/write outside of their lane. It seems to be not a matter of if but when.

[Totem Polar]

I'll also offer a mild apology for the tone of my post, as when I copy and pasted that from my FB, I had just come out of a discussion with some NRA instructor types who think a gun is the answer to everything and are very "line in the sand" about "what is and isn't" and had offered some TERRIBLE advice. My mistake was engaging with people who I know don't have any tenure or experience in life much less firearms training.

Some of that carried over here and it shouldn't have.

I’ll go ahead and speak for a plurality of posters who’ve been here a while: we all got it; nothing to apologize for. Thanks for taking time to paste both the video and the full context of the discussion. The stuff left in from the FB-driven issue also imparted value to the OP.

JMO.

But you know I’m right.

:)

[SeriousStudent]

I’ll go ahead and speak for a plurality of posters who’ve been here a while: we all got it; nothing to apologize for. Thanks for taking time to paste both the video and the full context of the discussion. The stuff left in from the FB-driven issue also imparted value to the OP.

JMO.

But you know I’m right.

:)

Amen! I greatly appreciate it when someone shares knowledge or valuable analysis.

Mr Douglas - I have more tasty beverages for you in March when you visit us here in Dallas. :)

[03RN]

So within the context of the OP's thread title....

Apparently waste band or sweatpants holsters are a bad idea? Seems like going for a roll is a great way to lose a gun with this set up. Or your option is to go gun early so you don't lose it.

Should concealed holsters have some type of retention even if the holster stays put so does the gat?

If you lived in an area due to politics or laws that shooting that suspect if he charged would be a bad idea ....what do you do with the gun during the charge?

should we all have some type of hoodie that can be converted into an emergency holster/backpack? Or did I just succumb to marketing? (Sarcasm)


I used to not carry when I was bouncing for fear of losing it. After the pulse nightclub shooting I started carrying at work. I never had an issue with ptd loops or kydex releasing a gun.

[45dotACP]

I used to not carry when I was bouncing for fear of losing it. After the pulse nightclub shooting I started carrying at work. I never had an issue with ptd loops or kydex releasing a gun.How tight was the retention set on your holster? Like on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being the gun would drop out of the holster if turned upside down, and 10 being it almost won't release the gun.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[03RN]

How tight was the retention set on your holster? Like on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being the gun would drop out of the holster if turned upside down, and 10 being it almost won't release the gun.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk


I always crank the retention down. It might be able to be tighter but not by much.

[Cecil Burch]

I ask these questions because many here carry in their gym shorts around the house or to the store or walking the dog or at the gym. Even some SMEs said this. Seems like it negates the ability to go hands-on.



Not necessarily. The main issue in this situation is buying a holster with some kind of clip attachment, throwing in the waistband of sweatpants of gym shorts and going about your business. No testing or practicing to make sure you are set up properly. That is a disaster waiting to happen.

This very first thing to do is tighten the drawstring in the waistband. If you run it with the same level of slack that 99.9% run it with, and then you throw on something that weighs a pound or two, is maybe short and squat (i.e. not a lot of leverage in length and all the weight is smack in the middle of the gun) and you start moving explosively, things may happen with the holster and gun that you don't want.

You may also need to run the gun a bit lower than you do with a belt. The higher it sits, the less leverage under the waistband which puts more pressure on the clip to hold it on. For example, on my LCR, I want most of the waistband to be at least above the midline of the cylinder. Any lower and the weight of the butt and gun above the waistband may very well tip outwards even without pressure.

The third item is to actually know how to go hands on in a grappling situation with good mechanics and understanding of principles, not just a collection of techniques that you "know".

As in most things, it is not just a gear issue that is solved by gear. It is a multi-faceted problem that requires work and knowledge along with the gear.

[snow white]

Bit of a thread drift from the current conversation but the title of the thread aligns with my mindset for this year. This year will be the year of "everything else" meaning my classes will focus on everything else other than the physical act of shooting. So tactics, mindset, hand to hand, verbal skills, medical ect. With ammo being as crazy as it is its the perfect opportunity to focus on arguably the more important aspects of self defense.

[UNK]

The unlocking thing recently happened here. A woman was the subject of road rage and she drove home parked in her driveway. Roadrage guy pulled in behind her. She turned her car off, door unlocks road rage guy opened the door drug her out of the car and assaulted her in her front yard. Road rage guy gets back in his truck and drove off. Either that night or the next night her vehicle was egged so Im assuming road rage guy returned.
Last I heard he had not been caught.